Angela Flournoy (The Wilderness) feat. Rickey Laurentiis, Guest Gay Reader

Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Gays reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what, andwhy.
Anyone can listen.
Comes we're spoiler free Readingfrom politic stars to book club
picks where the curious mindscan get their picks.
So you say you're not gay.

(00:24):
Well that's okay.
There's something for everyone.
Gays Reading.
Hello, and welcome to Gay'sReading.
I'm your host, Jason Blitman,and on today's episode I have
the lovely Angela Flournoytalking to me about her book The
Wilderness, and RickeyLaurentiisis is our guest gay

(00:46):
reader today, and she also talksabout her book.
Death of the first idea, whichis a new book of poetry.
It is such a funny and wonderfulcoincidence that it just so
happens that both of theseauthors, Angela and Ricky are,
they were just long listed forthe National Book Award.
Angela for fiction, and Rickyfor poetry.

(01:08):
Congratulations to both of them.
Both of their bios are in theshow notes, and both of their
books are also out now.
So super, super excited for eachof them.
And what a weird coincidence forthis episode.
Uh, thank you all so much forbeing here, as always.
If you like what you're hearing,please share us with your
friends.

(01:28):
Follow us on social media.
We are at gays reading onInstagram, and if you are so
inclined to leave a five starreview, that is super helpful
for the algorithm and for thosewho might be looking for a book
podcast to enjoy.
The October book Club Pick hasbeen announced with Altoa.
It is Middle Spoon by AlejandroVarela, and I recently had a

(01:50):
conversation with Alejandro thatyou could listen to.
It is spoiler free, so you couldcheck it out before you, uh,
read the book and you couldlearn more about the book club
through Altoa.
Again, link in the show notes.
You can also watch theseepisodes over on YouTube.
We have a Substack, we havemerch.
All the things you can check outon the Gays reading Instagram,

(02:12):
uh, in the link in the bio, orof course in the show notes.
All of that said, thank youagain for being here, and please
enjoy my conversations withAngela Flournoy and Rickey
Laurentiis.

Jason Blitman (02:25):
Angela Flournoy.
Welcome to Gay's Reading

Angela Flournoy (02:27):
Thank you so much for having me.
Very excited to be here.

here to talk about the wilderness.

Oh my God.
Do I need to have a copy of thebook?
Like I.
Then I'm gonna have to run awayagain.
Okay.
Now, okay, we're

You remember what it's about, right?
So then you're good.

Just making sure I'm not reading or
anything.

Oh God, no.
No.
I don't wanna hear from you.
This is, I read it already.

true.
No one

Yes.
Congrats on being shortlistedfor the Kirk Prize.

Thank you.

Incredible.
I like wanna get into.
Some of this like journey thatyou've been on, which I know
that everyone is gonna want totalk to you about, so we won't
linger.
But before we do, what is yourelevator pitch for the
wilderness?

My elevator pitch.

And that this ride can be as long or as short
as you

Okay.
So this book is a novel thatfollows a group of four close
friends over 20 years from theirearly twenties into their
forties millennial friends.
And I really think about it as atrue coming of age.
So a lot of times people focuson, coming from becoming like a
young adult from adolescence,but to me.

(03:37):
That is literally child's playcom compared to what it feels
like to mature into middle agewhere there are just a million
paths, you can take a lot ofcomplications that are not
necessarily things youanticipate, and it is about that
group of women who live in NewYork and LA experiencing those

(03:58):
20 years of their life whilealso,

Oh, Uhhuh.

Sorry, you said you know the

Yeah, it could be as long as you want it to be.
Here we go.
Someone just got off, so nowwe're continuing to go.

you.
While also, and this is likewe're going all the way to like
floor 34 now,

Yes.

it was while also experiencing the last 20
years of American life, all ofthat.

You just touched on so many pieces of, obviously
this is what your book is about.
So many pieces of things that Ido want to talk to you about,
but a quote in the book is anessential aspect of growing up
is how we remain connected toothers as we move into middle
age.
Have you figured that out?
Was this book.
An exploration of that.
Were you trying to figure thatout?

I've been trying to figure that out since
I started writing the book whenI was only 30.
And now I'm 10 years older thanthat, but I just, I've always
been, I love anintergenerational friendship, so
I've always had older friends.
And I really admired the waythat some of them really seemed

(05:07):
to be able to hold like boththeir biological families and
their chosen families close.
And I felt like those peopleseemed to have the most robust,
like middle age and even likeinto their senior year's lives
versus the people who seems tonot be able to do that.
The people who, went all in onfamily and now their lives are

(05:27):
very small or weren't even ableto do to hold any, they're just
out here alone.
Maybe just with like theirspouse and their kids, and
nobody else.
And the difference in just howthey felt about the world around
them and how happy they seem tobe.
And so it was something that Iwanted to explore is how do you
do it?
And I think also having a lot ofolder, friends that are queer, I

(05:53):
realized that they figured outsomething that a lot of
heterosexual people had notfigured out, and the only real
group that I saw in my life thatwere of heterosexual people who
had figured it out were blackwomen.
Like they had figured outsomething that it seemed like
other people of the straightworld had not figured out, which
is we can't just put all of oureggs in this nuclear family

(06:14):
basket.
We can't even put it just in thebiological family basket like.
Half of the people I grew upgrowing calling aunties were
just my mother's friends, likeher dear friend and older, queer
people in my life.
They also communicated to me akind of oh no, we're like
family.
This is for real in a way that Ifelt like a lot of heterosexual

(06:39):
people were just loosey gooseyabout their friendships.

Reading it, it is so not queer coded.
That's not even the right way tosay it, but it was so relatable
to me as a gay person.
This group of black womenfriends, right?
Like it and it really showcasedthis interesting crossover in
these relationships.

(07:02):
As I've gotten older, I havefound myself with more gay
friends.
Which is I think, part ofexactly what we're talking
about.
So many of my straight friendshave kids now or are like on
their journey doing whateverthey're doing and

their house.

We engaged rid of in our house too.

know, but it doesn't and it's like it can be
your personality without meaningyou don't have a social life,
like

We still have.

HDTV about it,

Exactly.
Exactly.
Though it's hilarious becauseI'd say as I'm getting older, I
have more gay friends.
I went bowling yesterday with agroup of gay friends.
Yes.
Yesterday.
And I'm realizing how much olderI'm getting, because today I'm
very sore just from bowling.
And I was like, okay, we need tofind a new activity.

You used to be sore from being in the club, it
was just like your thighs versuslike your back from

fair.
Your feet hurting right fromright.
Dancing all night long.
Oh my God.
So funny.
Okay, you talked about how youfeel differently or how you've
been trying to learn this in thelast 10 years of writing the
book.
I think a huge part of this bookcoming out for you is gonna be
people talking to you about itbeing 10 years since your last
book has come out.

(08:15):
Like I was saying earlier, Idon't really wanna linger, but
I'm curious what does it feellike now, having gone through
the process before and now tosay, okay, I've taken this time.
What's, what is it like thistime?

This time around, I think that there's.
So much has changed.
There's the inside baseball ofthe way that the book world has
changed and also I think the waythat people, my awareness of
readers has changed becausethere wasn't like book talk or
Bookstagram, you didn't reallyget a sense of the reader as a
consumer really.

(08:49):
You met them once they came to.
Talk and stuff, but now thewhole time you're writing a
book, if you happen to take agander over there, you see the
way that they talk about books.
And it is not necessarily theway that you want people to talk
about books when you're awriter, but it's interesting
information and that's one thingthat's changed, but I'll say
that over 10 years when you takethis long to write another book,

(09:11):
you go through all sorts ofcycles about like your beliefs
of what will happen when thebook comes out.
And in some ways.
You end up feeling like a debutagain I have no idea what's
gonna happen.
You can't really take anythingfor granted because it's been so
long.

Yeah.
Is it validating for this Kirkthing to happen even before pub

You know?

like, Okay, we good.

We got something right, little feather
in the cap to get this thing.
You wanna be able to have a, hersecond book, comma, and you put
something there, right?
Something happens with thatbook.
So at least this one thing hashappened, so that does feel
good.

yeah.
Is there anything that jumps outas something that you heard or
learned from Book Talk orBookstagram or whatever that was
like, I don't know, triggeringor something bad has stayed with
you?

I mean there was some, there's certainly, I
would say humbling.
There's this way, especially Idon't feel like I'm a product m
the MFA system, but I did get anMFA that before I get an MFA.
I don't think I talked aboutbooks being literary or not
literary, but certainly afteryou get an MFA, you have a sense
of that, and then when you getback, what I've learned in the

(10:24):
world of like how readers talkabout books is that so many
readers are just omnivorous.
Like they are reading, authorswho put out four or five books a
year, like these series thatlike have AI looking covers.
And then they're also readinglike, I don't know the
personable Everett, like they'rereading.

right,

Whatever they feel like it, whatever people
are excited about or tell themabout.
And there's a way that in yourmind you think I have to be
positioned just like this, or myreader won't find me.
And it's like there's justreaders, like there's a bunch of
different kinds.

Yeah.
You think about things likeheart stopper.
Which was self-published onlineand then became this fantastic
graphic novel that people lovedand now turned into the series.
It's so who would've thoughtthat this little sort of indie
thing on the internet was gonnablow up in the way that it did?
Yeah.
That's a really interestingtakeaway from the from the

(11:23):
Bookstagram world.

Yeah.
It doesn't mean that I need tobecome these other kinds of
books, but when I think about.
Where my book lives on people'sbookshelves.
It's just crazy to think it likelives next to, I don't know,
like Faulkner or like even,Jennifer Egan.
Who knows?
You might just be living next toTolkien and

Next to Tolkien and next to their library
printout of that thing they sawonline that they loved.
And you're smashed in the middleof that and that's very cool.
Okay.
There's a scene in the book,which is like.
Not a throwaway, but you'regonna be like, oh, this is what
we're talking about.
Um, there's, There's a, a loudgentleman working in a coffee

(12:10):
shop on a weekend,

Oh my God.

and

Did you feel seen?
Did you feel attacked?

that is not what I'm bringing up.
I feel attacked now.
No.
And he is this sentence that hesays, I feel like, coming from
the writer is a bit tropey onpurpose, but he is saying on his
call, storytelling really doeshave the power to save lives.
And he's like a marketing execexecutive telling like a client

(12:38):
and he's being obnoxious aboutit.
So maybe it's cliche, but it istrue, and how, what does that
mean to you?
How have stories changed Life,have your life for you.

I will say that man was, yes.
He was being cliche and he wasthinking about yes, copy.
He was thinking about notstorytelling, but like marketing
copy.

Exactly.
Yeah.

you can make us rich.
That's how it'll change ourlives.
It's if we get this copyright,like it will change our lives.
But I would say that, the oldJames Baldwin quote that still
remains true, which is that, itwas books that helped him
realize he wasn't alone in theworld.
That there were, he wasn't theonly one who would ever
experienced the things that hewas experiencing.

(13:20):
And I'm paraphrasing, but thatis, I think.
The real power of books.
I wish books would reliablychange policy, et cetera.
I'm not sure if that's true, butwhat it can, what they can do
is, for all of us who are livingamidst this world, is understand
that other people have theseexperiences and that especially

(13:43):
when you are young or when youjust, your circumstances are
such that you don't have a lotof interaction with people
different from.
That nuclear family or that, onechurch you go to or whatever, is
this idea that there's thiswhole big, there's this big
world and that there is a lot ofconnectivity like between us.

And that is the sort of beauty and soul of the
book,

Thank you.

because he says with a big sigh, it's the book
is sneaky In that.
It's really this sort of sliceof life, of a bigger picture a
bigger piece of life, littleslices of a big life.
And it's just real and honestand what people do in their sort

(14:32):
of daily lives.
And it feels simple and there'ssomething very profound in its
simplicity.
When you think about decadeslong friendships someone,
there's a scene where one of thewomen asks the other one or not
even asks, says to someone, Ifeel like we read this in AP
English, and there's somethingso fascinating about the

(14:55):
institutional knowledge offriends.
And I was like, oh yeah, I havefriends still that I went to
elementary school and middleschool with who I can who I have
a sort of common language with,and they helped me remember my
history.

Absolutely.
I think there's, and there'salso that other sneaky thing
that happened because in thatinstance, she's that she was a
much better student than herfriend.

Yes.

friend is I didn't take AP anything.
I didn't read those books, butthis way that the, when I think
about it's like the accretion ofexperiences, right?
So it's like one on top ofanother, on top of another.
And I think that sometimes whenpeople, like you go back home

(15:46):
after you first go to college orsomething, and that friend from
high school tries to hang outwith you and it just doesn't
feel like it's gonna work.
Some of that has to do with youdon't wanna be perceived as that
person anymore.
Like they.
Have a knowledge of you thatyou're not interested in having,
like having reflected back toyou.

(16:06):
It's nothing personal,

and there are there, then there are the people
who you might still get alongwith and like each other's
pictures on Instagram, and thenyou connect.
In real life and all you do istalk about the past and you're
like, oh, that's really all wehave.
And some of the friends that Ihave, now who I've known for
that long, it is this sort ofbeautiful marriage of things

(16:31):
that we could talk aboutpresently and that institutional
knowledge of our past.
But it's so funny because thereare some of these friends where
I'm like.
You must have been in that classbecause we were all together,
but oh, no, sorry girl.

You were just in regular

I, for, I forgot.
This you say in youracknowledgements that a lot of
this was sparked by relationshipthat your late mother had with
one of her best friends.
Can you share a little bit aboutthe seed of that for you?

Sure.
So my mother's mother died whenshe was 10.
And my mother.
Meant like her parents werealready divorced, but she moved
to a different city to be raisedby my grandfather and his, like
his new wife.
And so she went to a new middleschool and she made just this
friend named Alicia Williams,who is like a, she's just made

(17:23):
to be like on television.
She should, she actually waslike on, what is that show
called, I think a thousandDollar Pyramid or something in
the eighties.

my God, that's so funny.

But she, they just remained very good friends
like I was when I came home fromthe hospital, my mother was
still living with my auntieAlicia so that's where I lived
first.
And my mother also has threesisters, but this is really like
her fourth sister.
And in many times in her lifewere, was like her closest
sister.
And so I was raised calling myauntie Alicia's child, like my

(17:53):
cousin.
I still call her my cousin.
I call both of her children mycousin and I feel like, that
constant in my life, like otherpeople trying to tell me that's
not your real aunt, though,really reinforced the way that I
do believe that friends can bethat important to your life.
Because I was just like how doyou know?

Yeah.
And it also, like you have toask the question like, what
makes family, I, and people whohave been listening to this
podcast are sick of me sayingthis, but I'm such a firm
believer in the differencebetween family and relatives.

Okay.

Relatives can be family, but family doesn't have
to be relatives,

absolutely.
And I think that is somethingthat other, I think part of it,
like the, one of those thingswhen you talk about like the
overlapping, I thinkparticularly with black people
and like black women and like ina lot of queer communities, that
that is because of likenecessity because who is going
to support you?
Who is gonna see you no matterwhat, like that is who is your

(18:57):
family.
It is not necessarily the peoplein your household, it is not
necessarily whoever you discoveris connected to you on
ancestry.com.
Like what?
How is that person, they're arelative for sure.

Yeah.

But they're not your family.

the book felt like.
A cousin of Leila Motley's newbook, the Girls Who Grew Big.

very excited to read that.
I have not read it yet.

it's great.
But these books are, they'recousins.
It's almost like a sliding doorswho these women could be in the
future or in the past orwhatever.
Yeah, and it's very good, butit's just really special sort of
reading about these deeprelationships.
I.
We have to talk about youraudiobook in relation to all of

(19:46):
this.
Can you share who your audiobooknarrators are, how this came to
be, who they are to you?
It's incredible.

Sure.
My audio book is read by twoactors.
Asian, Naomi King and AshleyNicole Black.
They make me want to go by mymiddle name as well, but it's
too late.
And

is it?

not, only TSA knows,

and who knows for how long?

right.
But yeah, so they, Asia, it'sbeen in a lot of television.
She was nominated for an Emmyfor her role in lessons in
chemistry.
She was also in How To Get AwayWith Murder.
And Ashley is also a writer.
She's been in a bunch of amazingrooms, including Ted Lasso and
currently in Shrinking.
And she also was a part of theensemble cast for a black lady

(20:33):
sketch show.
And we all went to, we.
It's really crazy because we'velike been in each other's lives
and like rooting from eachother, sometimes very close up,
sometimes afar because that'show life is.
But we actually all only went tothe same school for two years,
just for middle school.
They went to the same elementaryand they also went to the same
high school.

(20:53):
But I grew up on the other sideof the tracks.
But we all fed

I've read that book

But we all fed into the same junior high
school.
And it was a school.
The thing about LA County isthat when people think of the
suburbs, they think of this Idon't know, like John esque
homogenous, like very like whitespace.
But LA county suburbs are notlike that.
Most of, a lot of them areethnos.
So our school was very diversein the sense that it was

(21:19):
majority Latino, but also had abig Asian, Asian Pacific
Islander community.
And a whatever, a smaller southAsian community, but there
weren't that many black peopleat the school.
And so the three of us wereoften like the only three black
girls doing a thing, like beingin the, being on the dance

(21:40):
squad, like being incheerleading twirling those
flags being in like theaterAsia.
And Ashley can sing.
And Ashley comes from like amusical family and I cannot, but
they sure did rope me intosinging many a song, including,
how did I get Roped into Sing?

(22:01):
Whitney and Mariah, you knowthat song for the Prince of
Egypt?

Oh yes I do.
Uhhuh,

No business singing it.

if you believe.

I think a lot.
I was just watermelon, cantal,loing in the back

my god,

no word.
Those sounds were coming out,but

that Is that you?
Former theater kid.
Watermelon, cantaloupe.
Yes.

they needed me for moral support, but it's a
duet, so had it.

it is.
So you were good?

But so it, we didn't all go to the same
colleges, but we just remainedin each other's lives and just
rooted for each other.
And when I had an opportunity tothink about the audio book,
usually they give you like afew, like the editors, they find
the finalists and then they sendyou the three different little
snippets of people reading.

(22:47):
And if you're lucky, you pickone that they like and they go
with it.
But I decided one thing abouttaking 10 years for a book is
that you have a lot of dreamsfor the book.
And so you're like, this is thecover.
I just really need this cover.
And this is, and I did that, Idid a lot of those
self-advocacy.
And it was nice because they'vedone this, like Ash Asia has

(23:09):
done audiobooks before.
Ashley has done a lot ofanimation, like voiceover stuff.
So it wasn't like, here are myfriends from.
Junior high school who like haveno IMDB pages, but trust me.

Who knows if they read?

yeah.
So it worked out

Yeah.

very special.
Yeah.

And not only is it humans that it is humans,
that it is this crazy parallelto the book too.
And that is, it's I listened andread simultaneously and it was,
it brought me just like extralayers of joy

I have not listened because I was roped
into reading a part of it, andthat makes me not wanna listen
to any of it,

Yeah.
Yeah,

but I will.

fair.
I had to get used to that veryquickly, starting a podcast.
I was like, oh, I'm gonna beediting my voice.
I'm gonna be, listening all thetime.
I hate it, but I'm gonna, I needto suck it up until with it,

Okay.

I feel you.
It, you'll move past.
It's great.
They're great.
So it's worth listening to themfor them.

you.

I don't, this is not, this is like a spoiler in
quotation mark, but it's notbecause it happens in like the
first page, but the firstchapter, it talks a lot about
dying with dig, dignity and whatthat means.
I was just talking to a friendabout this because we both were
observing, like grandparentsgetting older and here I am
talking to you about bowling andbeing sore from bowling, let

(24:31):
alone.

Yeah.

40 years from now, what my body's gonna be
doing.
It's so irrelevant to ask howyour feelings about it.
But I'm, there is this again,I'm not giving anything away,
but let's say what is on yourbucket list?

Oh, in life.
Like in life to do.

Yes.
Yes.
Let's say you were like, youknow what?
The time is soon.
Let me do these things before

Oh, okay.
Like I

traveling to Europe.
I know I like skipped threequestions, which the journey
would've gotten there, but Iwant to, let's just get here for
this.
This will tell more

oh man.
I feel it's really interestingbecause it's like when you have
kids that changes.
It's oh, I just, there's likeall these things I need to
communicate to this child.
So if we, okay let's imaginethat's not it, because I would
just literally be making audiobooks, like would just be trying

(25:27):
to impart information.
But, okay.

That's beautiful too.
Okay let's get you a littlerecorder,

But if we're just thinking about like general
bucket lists not the realitiesof my current life, but like
just a general it's interestingbecause it's I find like deep
meaning and purpose fromwriting, But I also just like to
hang out, would I be

things are in conflict with each other.

Yes.
So it's would I want to justmake sure I write like these
next two books that I have in myhead, or would I just be like
I'm gonna get credit card withthe biggest limit and just

Yes.

they can't make anybody pay it when I'm gone.
I'm just gonna ball out, and goto, I haven't been to.
South Africa, which, where Iwould like to go.
Like I've been to North Africaand I've been to East Africa and
West Africa, but I've not beento South Africa.
I have not been to SouthAmerica.
Yeah.
So I would travel and then Iwould I don't know.

(26:30):
I wouldn't,

I feel like travel is a very common.
Thing.
It's like get out and see moreof the world.
I'd wanna travel, I'd wanna goto some really good restaurants.

Yes.
Eat, drink, and be merry.
I absolutely.
I also feel like I would that'sone of the nice things I think
about getting older, is thatsome of the things like I would
finally tell this person or thatperson the thing.
I feel like either that feelsless important to me or I
already did tell them like Idon't

Yeah.

yeah.

Getting older, I'm like, oh, I care less about
certain things.
Yeah.

I don't, and so I do think that there's I don't
know, I need better like bucketlist aspirations.
I don't

Going to South Africa is a great first item.

Yeah.

Yeah, but no, it like really makes you think
about it.
Okay, if I was, if someone toldme tomorrow I had X number of
weeks, how would I fill thattime?
It's an interesting thought

I would've to rob a bank obviously, like just,
just to

for the thrill

no, to try to, this is just living under
capitalism.
I'm like, oh, then my.
My husband would've to be asingle dad.
I need to get more money, so Ineed to get my, John Q on or
something until I get thismoney.

this is very interesting'cause a lot of what
you're saying is settling.
This is turning into a therapysession.
A lot of what you're saying istake care of those.
You would leave behind, you'dwanna leave, you'd want to,
leave lots of notes for thekids.
You'd wanna leave money for thehusband.
You'd wanna, maybe notes aboutthe books that are in your head
so someone else could writethem.

Yeah.
Or, put together all thesenotebooks, like there's actually
books in here if you just followthe breadcrumbs like that.
I obviously refuse to docurrently, like there are books
in here.

Yeah.
That's so funny.
Do you have any sisters?

I have two sisters.
I have an older sister and ayounger sister.

Okay.
There are two sisters in thebook.
Danielle and Desiree.
Danielle was born bossy.
Desiree was compliant.
Which are you?

Oh compliant.
Compliant.

Oh

I feel like I,

that's very middle child of you.

in, in that relationship, in the sibling
relationship, I am compliantlike in my life.
I'm probably bossier, butthere's just a way when you're
like a, if you have an oldersibling who is like very takes
up a lot of, attention andspace, you can compete or you
can just submit And I justsubmitted like I used to think I

(29:01):
was shy and I realized, oh no, Ijust didn't have a lot of time
to talk.

Yeah, I'm the oldest.
I relate to everything you'resaying.
My middle sister, I would say,can relate to exactly what
you're talking about.
Yeah, I think she is.
She's a boss in her real lifeand she is compliant and in
between me and my youngestsister, I would say.
But we love her.

(29:27):
She's the best.
Okay.
There's something that comes upin the book that felt so
disgustingly real to me.
I don't know if you've seen,I've been drinking outta my
Zabars mug.
I am.
I am a New Yorker at heart.
New Yorker at heart.
I lived there for many years.
There's a scene where there'sapartment hunting going on, And

(29:47):
she has all of her documents,all of her checkbook, her cash,
her this or that.
People do not understand whatapartment hunting in New York is
like, And so thank you forsharing with the world.

Yeah, she's got like her color printed, like
credit report.
So they could see the green.
They need to see the green,right?
Like a quick glance.
They need to see green and yeah,it still feels like she only
gets the apartment because shehas a name that is like
raceless.
Like it doesn't, if anything, itleans to white January wells,
like you wouldn't know ahead oftime that.

(30:23):
She was black.
And so when she shows up thebroker doesn't dare not give her
their apartment, but he tries tomake it sound worse than it even
is, hoping she'll just give upon the apartment.

But she is no, I literally have the receipts and
you're gonna give it to me, andI have my pen, my black ink.

Rest.
I have the money order.
What do you need?
I have everything.

Literally my husband and I On a garbage can
outside of an apartment inAstoria with our cash, with our
this, with our that, with ourcredit report.
Because that is just how itgoes.
And like literally there werepeople waiting on the sidewalk
to see the apartment while we'refilling out the floor.

And you were like, it's not yours.
It's not yours.

yes.
Oh my

it is.
I feel like LA is starting tobecome that way, but it wasn't
always that way.

Okay, so the other thing that felt so true,
both in the New York universe,but also just like life in
general, was the concept of whyit was so reasonable to pay$800
at a club for drinks.
But that a$40 cab ride wasabsolutely not.

(31:32):
And I was like, wait, this isNew York math, and it makes it
makes so much sense to me.
Why?
Why do you think that is?
I don't understand.

I think it's because it's you know that it's
two things.
One, like a$40 cab ride.
Before there was uber surges,there was just cabs would turn
off the meter and tell you aprice.
They would be like, where areyou going?
And they would tell you a priceso you know you're being gouged.
Like it doesn't, the rate is notjust the rate.
Whereas like at the club, ifyou're not a celebrity, like

(32:02):
there's a an evil printout ofthe prices of these bottles.
And that's the

You know what you're getting yourself into.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's also something aboutyou're at the club, it's gonna
cost what it's gonna cost.
Whereas when you're in the cab,you're like, there's that part
of you that knows, I could havetaken the subway,

I could have.
Yeah.
Or

it could have been$2 and 50 cents.

yes, or maybe even I could have just gotten
into a different cab and mayeven if the meter is on, maybe
he would've just driven fasteror something like,

though what's hilarious is it's by mileage and
not time.
So no ma I this, I've alwaysbeen in a cab and I'm like, come
on, just go faster.
I'm like, no, it's really thesame no matter what,

it doesn't feel that way

I know it

when you go slower, you see it ticking up

I know.
Oh my God.
I was reading it and likesweating.
'cause I was like, yes, thisfeels so real.
All right.
This I don't know how to bringthis up.
Peeps are mentioned in the book,the marshmallow treat.

you were saying peeps as in people.
I was like, yes.
Say more.
Yes,

This is a book about peeps.
Peeps.
The marshmallows come up in thebook and it almost made me close
it.
I was so offended.
I hate them.
Tell me more.
Are you a fan?

Wait, it's not in a positive way

No, it's not.
You're right.
You're right.
But still, it's still mentionedand it's like.

you

It's like saying the president's name on the
podcast.
I'm like no.
I'm gonna edit it out.
Even if you say it in a negativeway.

Okay.
So I didn't know that you feltthat strongly.
I didn't know there was acontingency of people.
'cause you hear so much aboutthe Candy Corn community and
last about the PEEP community,but.
Like candy corn's not in therebecause I just was, the third
rail, I didn't wanna do it

The candy corn community.
Oh my God, I'm dying.

both sides.
Like they're just so passionate.

Yes.
And this is like we are talkingabout it on the brink of Kand
corn season.

Very much and

How?
Where do you stand?

A little bit is fine.

A little bit is fine.
I

Have I exposed my child to candy corn?
No, because I'm worried shemight be a candy corn person and
I can't risk it.

No.

What if she's obsessed?

and the only thing worse than a candy corn
person is a candy corn pumpkinperson.

Oh, it's like I need even more food coloring.

No,

I need some black

more wax, right?
No.
I can have one candy corn, andthat is my limit.
Maybe two.

Yeah, but no, like a big bowl.
Like just a bowl of loose candycorn.

Absolutely not though.
Hilariously a couple of yearsago, Katie Couric posted
something on Instagram.
It was like a meme about candy,corn and how, if you like, pile
it around in circles, it likemakes a corn on the cob.
And I was like, oh, that'scrazy.
And of course that makes sense.
That's why.
How they do, and I did it and Itagged her in it and she replied

(35:03):
to me,

Oh, so she's a candy corn person?

I can't remember, but they honestly, you know
what?
She probably wasn't because ifshe was, then I would've
unfollowed her, but.
Pees are the spring candy corn.

Yeah, they are the candy corn of the spring,
and they are, but I find fewerpeople love them, except the
other day I actually did have aconversation with someone who
said they love the iridescentpink ones.
Just more chemicals.
Why?
I don't know.

This is astonishing to me.

This is a writer.
I'm not gonna name their name,but this is like a real person.
And they said they like thembecause they taste happier.

What does that even mean?

Exactly.
Because peeps have no flavor.
They don't like, it's not like

No, it's like sugar.
No

But this person iridescent pink peeps.

We have a lot of writer friends in common,
obviously.
Now every single writer I talkto, I'm gonna bring it up and
I'm gonna, I'm

See how they behave.
Yeah, just see.

so funny.
There's a lot of restaurantkitcheny in the wilderness.

I also was a server slash manager at a
restaurant in DC when I wasworking on the Turner House.

Oh, cool.

Yes.

There is something on the menu in Nikki's
restaurant that she is a recipethat she got from Desiree's
grandfather.
Is there anything like that inyour life where you're like, oh,
I have, or I want so and so'srecipe for this, or so and so's

(36:44):
mom's recipe for that.

Yes.
Sometimes when you belong to acommunity, they believe that
they're the only ones who dothis thing.
And then, there's that alwaysthat annoying person on Twitter
or Instagram who's we do thisthing too.
So I feel like one of thosethings, I don't remember where I
saw this, probably, and theplatform formerly known as
Twitter the, somebody talkedabout how like black people do

(37:07):
not like to share their recipesand that they think it has to do
with the fact that.
So much of their recipes werelike, they were working in like
domestic capacities in people'shomes and these white people
took their recipes and then justsaid, it's southern cooking.
But it was like, no, this isblack.
This is African Americancooking.

(37:28):
But, and so then, but people inthe comments were like, my
grandma, I'm from El Salvador.
My grandma doesn't like to shareher recipes either, et cetera.
So who knows?
But a lot of older people in myfamily.
A lot of older women in myfamily are very protective of
the recipes.
Like my late Aunt Rose was soprotective of her pineapple

(37:48):
upside down cake recipe that shedid not really tell anyone
before she died.
And now we just are left withlike sad, improvised facsimile
by people who saw her.
'cause she didn't even used tolet people see her.
But she did let some people seeher.
But there's no like actualofficial recipe.

Wow.

And I used that to scare my dear Aunt Alicia do
not do that with the carrotcake.
Do not do that with the carrotcake.
I know you want to be the one tobring it.
You want no one to steal yourshine, but do not like, not
forget to actually write it down

Do we know that it's written somewhere?
Can we like, have her write itdown and put it in a safe box or
in a, at the

I'm working on this, but I know she has told my
cousin, but then every time mycousin has tried to replicate
it, it has not been quite rightand I feel like she is
gatekeeping still some secret

Something.

She is we're not doing that until I feel like
it's time.
But even like her sweet potatopie recipe, she told me on the
phone and it was a lot of nonmeasurements and it's

on, aunt

just put it in there until it looks right.
And I'm like.

What does it mean to look right?
Send pictures.

So some of those things I have tried to get
the measurements myself by trialand error, but yeah, so I have a
few like that.
Yes,

Okay.
Oh, I am like, I'm on a, I'm onthis journey though now once I
need to make sure that thiscarrot cake recipe lives on in
the world.

If you had this carrot cake, you would
understand.
It is not like any carrot cakeyou've had around.

Okay.

I.

Have you been to Carrot top pastries?

No.
Where is it?

It is in Washington Heights.
You have to go to Carrot toppastries.
It is right off the hundred and68th Street subway station.

Okay.
I'm dropping a pen.

They have carrot cake muffins.
They have carrot cake.
They, their ULA is out ofcontrol.
I don't, this is not to competewith Auntie Alicia,

I'm in.
I'm interested in theinformation,

yes.
You just need to, it is worthhaving.
It is worth going to.

dropping a pen.
Thank you.

I dream about their ula.
I dream about their carrot cakemuffins, their carrot muffins
there.
If there's one thing, if youtake away from this
conversation, it is that Theyhave good sandwiches.
I'm a big fan, so

is very good to know.
Thank you.

That's my PSA.
In the book there is a partyhosted that is, they call it the
group of seven because that'slike the, perfect ratio of
people to have a party.
Who would your seven be?

Oh man.
Am I trying to have that partybecause that's a very specific
goal for that party.

No.
Just like in general, and itdoesn't, you don't, even if you
don't wanna name names, likewho, what are the kinds of seven
people that you would wannabring together?

mind naming names.

You're like, let, I'm gonna put it in writing.

Listen, I'm trying to speak it into come on,
I wanna have this, I wanna havethis party, that party.
Like the goal for that party isto try to raise awareness about
the climate, but also just to bemixy for Nicky's sake.
Like they just wanna have peoplethat they think are cool and
should know each other in aroom.
Or people that they think makethem look cool.

(41:08):
I know some people who don'tmake six figures like, that
makes me feel cool, so let'shave one of them in the room,

I'll be there.
I don't make six figures.

right?
So you would be, you might, Jaywould be the character who's
this was her brain child.
She would be like, you knowwhat, we need him because we
need real people

Jason is so real.

yeah, so for my group of seven I would
absolutely want somebody who Ijust think is really like funny.
And that is my good friend newYorker, staff writer Vincent
Cunningham.
He's just really funny and he isalso just a person who can like,

(41:47):
mix it up with anyone, which issomething I deeply admire.
Aspire to.

Shout out to his book.
Great Expectations that came outlast

And I would want someone not from this
country, like absolutely.

Assuming they want to be here.

yes.
Assuming they wanna this partydoesn't have to happen,

you're right, no, this is right.

In, the contiguous or territories does
not have to happen.
And that might be my friendGaysn poet, Yahi Asur who is
also very funny.
But just somebody who doesn'tthink about he there.
There's a presumption that Ithink especially American Tab

(42:30):
about just.
Anything, like how things aresupposed to be.
And I value his friendshipbecause I'm reminded often like
this is a presumption that justcomes from, provincialism, even
though I've traveled a lot, etcetera.
It's important to be reminded ofthat.
I don't think I can list sevenpeople.
It feels very hard, but

No, because I was thinking the same thing.
I was like, I don't know.
And the pressure of the sevenright.
People?

I certainly would want someone older, which
again, I'm very intointergenerational friendships so
that older person could be.
I am a deep admirer of thecurator Thelma Golden, who runs
the Studio Museum of Harlem.
Maybe I could trick Thelma tocome to my dinner party.
But those are, I guess some ofthe qualities are people who I

(43:18):
just feel like are funny and canget along with anyone.
People who I think are, do notbring the same sort of
perspective.
Not that they would need to beuseful in that way, but, I think
it would just like organicallyarise.
I love visual art.
I also love food.
Why not you, why not ina AnnaJeffrey?

Yes.

This party's happening in the Hamptons at
their house Actually,

perfect.
Okay, this is to, in summation,we have a normal person, a funny
person, someone outside thiscountry, an older person, an
artist, a chef, and you.

Yes.

That's a great list.

We got to seven.
I didn't think we Okay.

I love that.
It's a good it's a goodstructure of an interesting
group of people to cometogether.

Yes.

Anyway, I was curious'cause I had a very hard
time, so I wanted to getinspired.
Before I let you go, there'ssomething I wanna talk to you
about.
There is briefly in the bookthere.
A sort of talk of goodness andwhat that means, and not to name
drop or humble brag, but I didjust have Stacey Abrams on gay's

(44:28):
reading and we talked a bit aswell about goodness and what it
means to be good.
And she just had an interestingresponse and I was curious what
that means to you.

This is an important.
Thing to think about once youhave a character gripe about it
in your book.
But I think about I think aboutkindness a lot more than
goodness.
I think I was raised not reallyto prize niceness or goodness as
much as like kindness.
Like one thing about New York isthat I love, but that it also is

(45:03):
like just a thing to contendwith is that people you have to
witness in a way that it can betucked away in car cities,
people with different mobilitycapabilities.
And so a thing like you arelike, there's just like the
kindness of.
A New Yorker just picking up theend of a stroller and helping
somebody get it down the stairsand going about their day right?

(45:26):
Or literally the other day, thiswoman, like an older woman, had
her little granny cart trying toget into the bodega, but there
was like that cement lip shecouldn't get over.
And I just reached and yanked itup and I just kept going.
And I find that kind of kindnessis maybe like more important to
me than goodness, because I alsoworry about the inherent

(45:49):
performativity of goodness.
It's about can you be good ifit's like a tree falling in the
forest if no one witnesses it,but kindness is about the person
who you did the thing for.
They witnessed it.
You didn't need anything fromthem.
And in New York, people can bepathological about, about I
don't want anything.
I am, don't, I'm trying to makethe train.

(46:10):
No,

I just, I wanna move faster, so I'm gonna help
you down

or I just, yeah.
It's I'm gonna help you becauseI see it, but I'm not, it's not
gonna be a whole thing.
And I feel, especially in,hashtag these times, I do feel
like people have to figure out.
Where they can apply even small,like just kindness to people.
Like I feel like that is a thingthat is going to help like

(46:40):
communities survive.
I think there's a greatcommunity space called another
world in Crown Heights that afriend of mine is really
involved in, and I've justtangentially gone to their
staff, their events.
But one of the things that thiscommunity space has really
helped me realize is that.
They just like, like they haveplay dates, like just open to
anyone for two hours.
Sometimes on the weekends theyare just in the business of what

(47:02):
does this community need andlet's give it if we can.
And it's not necessarily aboutany individual person.
I'm sure it is'cause that's justhuman nature being good.
But it is like together, it'slike such a huge good, but it's
just all of these small acts ofkindness that they do.
By having the space and byletting people feel like they

(47:23):
can be part of it.
Yeah.

I just love it because everyone has their own
interpretation of what it means,and I think that's really I,
there are so many other things Icould talk to you about.
The book is so beautiful andyou're gonna fall in love with
these women and they're world,world and I don't wanna talk
about the title even though Ilike.
Have questions for you about thewilderness in your world.

(47:50):
But I'll let readers read it andhave their own thoughts and
feelings.
But everyone, go get your copywith Wilderness.
Angela Flournoy, thank you somuch for being here

For me, this was so much fun.

Rickey Laurentiis Welcome to GA's Reading.
I

Rickey Laurentiis (48:09):
Still understood is gay.
Appreciate

I appreciate you saying that because I, it's I'm
like not old, but I feel like Iam of how dare you I'm 37.
I'm 37.
I'm 37 Okay.
I am from the a, a quote unquotegeneration where gay was all
encompassing.
And when I say, guest gayreader, to me that is anyone who

(48:39):
is LGBTQIA plus.
So I appreciate that you feelseen because I do see all of the
people when I say that.

Yeah.
It's funny how all these kind ofterms have different usages and
balances and stuff, so that'sabout gay.

So as my guest gay reader today, let's start
off right off the bat.
What are you reading?

what am I reading right now?
I'm gonna try to answer thishonestly, the last thing I was
reading.

don't have to be honest.
You can answer

No, I'm gonna answer it.
reading,

not the reading, police.

I was on a, like a, a wiki rabbit hole.
I like to, I love to read, but Ialso love to research and like
on.
And I was just reading, theEtymology of Faith.
that's the very last

the etymology of

Yeah, I was looking it up because I just
wanted to see, I don't reallytrust definitions, but I love
etymology.
I like see the, I like to seethe, the path the word has taken
through history and some of hisresidences there.
I like to see that.
More, more often than a state.
a straight definition.

Yeah.
Was there something that youlearned that surprised you about
faith?

not really.
No.
it was pretty, pretty much starno trouble.
Stop.
My trying to get out.
it was, I guess what I was rightin the middle of it, so I don't
really have.
It's really smart, ideas sayabout it yet, but I, something
that was interesting this term,rock fastness came up.
Rock fastness, and I thoughtthat was, I thought that I'm

(50:15):
gonna definitely use it, but Ithought that was like a kind of
beautiful quasi image to to putaside faith as something.
And I'm not entirely, I'm notoverzealous.
I'm spiritual, but I'm not.
Evangelical.
But, so that's what I was mostliterally reading, but right now
I'm trying to, so you know,I've, today's my pub day, my

(50:38):
book came out.

Yes.
Pub Day.

I'm excited about that.
And in those 10 years to writeit, I have had a, steadily more,
confused relationship withcontemporary poetry.
I read a lot in antiquity.
I read a lot in the past, and soI'm trying to get, I'm trying to
welcome myself and urge myselfback into the flux and flow of

(51:01):
contemporary poetics.
And but I'm not doing it verywell.
The very last thing I wasreading was the End of Beauty by
Jerry Graham, which came out inthe eighties.

to some people that's contemporary.

I think she's a brilliant.
Being, but I will always readher.
But that's the, I don't have itshow you, but that's very last
thing I was reading.
I think next, if I can do this,I wanna give a shout out.
I think next I'm finally open upmy good friend Sophia Sinclair's
book, how to Say Babylon.
I've had it for, it's been on mybookshelf for just too long, and

(51:32):
now I'm ready to, sculpt to whatI wanna say to uncover its
beauty,

love.
You, talked about reading poetryin antiquity,

Are you a poet?

no, but so

says with El offense in his

No.
I am not articulate I'm notmetaphoric enough.
I like, couldn't, I don't speak

You read it,

beautiful enough.
I'm

think that way.
You think

I'm learning to appreciate it.
So I was gonna ask

Oh, that's exciting.
Okay.

me and to listeners who might be like
poetry what would you say tothat person?

I would say I get it.
Like I, I think of poet, I

I get but by my book.

by my book the late Louis GL who was.
Our most recent American Nobellaureate for poetry, she won a
couple of, just very close towhen she died.
She writes in the essay thatpoet is not a noun for passport.
It doesn't describe aprofessionalization in the ways
that maybe doctor does, a lawyerdoes.

(52:40):
for me, every time I admit, andit does feel like I'm, every
time I admit that I'm a poet andnot just a poet.
I take it seriously.
I publish and stuff.
I am reminded of theembarrassment some kind of way.
I have that feeling ofembarrassment with it, which,
there's nothing to beembarrassed by logically, but I
it reminds me of myself when Iwas still a child and I was very

(53:03):
in the Dickinson about it.
I was like writing secretly tomyself and.

Huh?

as a gay youth.
And, it was the way, it was themeans in which I was able to
learn myself and come intomyself.
So I would say to that personwho's like a little bit hesitant
with poems, not, enjoy mine ifyou like.
but I would say just dive in andtry to find some kind comfort.

(53:29):
This is what poetry does.
Poetry brings you up.
It makes you meet your ownlanguage in an exciting and
sometimes maddening way.
And for people who are not yetcomfortable or used to that kind
of engagement, that space,poetry can seem like falling
into a foreign language, and itcan be very, nervous making

(53:51):
frightening and, and maybe evenhumiliating.
I'm not sure.
So I think I understand allthat.
I get it, like I said, but Ialso say that, you don't have
to, they were wrong in 11thgrade.
That's you don't.

I appreciate you saying that, and I'm really glad
I asked you that questionbecause I didn't think about it
that way.
And also you saying, it could behumiliating is so true because
the idea of reading somethingthat you don't understand is
humiliating, right?
So if you, it's I think thatmight be another reason why

(54:26):
people are afraid of poetry.

Particularly Americans and I think it more
than likely has to do with usbeing English speakers being
relatively.
Isolated.
Like we, we don't have a lot ofcountries around us in
comparison to or injuxtaposition to like European
countries where they have tolike, it's not maybe a matter of
like privilege or want, just forthe.

(54:52):
Of the continent, they need toknow something of the other
languages as they travel.
That's not the case really inAmerica or in the United States.
you find just differentencounters with English as you
move around America.
I think that poetry is still,poetry is active and fun and
alive in America, but it's stillalso coming.
and I feel like I'm ready forpeople to experience it the way

(55:14):
that I do, and I think it's verybeautiful.
poems contrary to belief come inso many tones, so many balances,
so many modes.
Some are serious, others areerotic, some are funny, some are
ire, irreverent.
and it's just important thatpeople recognize that and
introduce themselves, not justto poems, but to art, to

(55:34):
painting, to film, to, all thethings that make life worth
living.
It seems

And that are a little bit outside of the
comfort zone.
Stretch, Stretch, the muscles

sure.
it's very much like bottoming.
let's just try, just go getthere.
It's very much,

Patience and breathing

deeply.
I'm just thinking about this,but it deeply is related to the
idea of bottoming.
It's scary at first.
It's gonna be arrived, but youknow what?
You will be rewarded if you justgo a little deeper.

What else is there to Rickey?
This is bye.
Have a great rest of your day.
That's, oh my God.
If this chapter of your lifethat you're in right now has a
title, what would it be?

E close.
that's E-C-L-O-S-E, which is themoment after a, a.
After a, caterpillar has deatomized and rolled themselves
up into a chrysalis.
They emerge from the cocoon orwhatever, and before they
imagined that, they just oh wow,I'm a butterfly.
But they actually have to staystand or sit there and pump

(56:42):
blood into their wings, andthat's called theose of the
butterfly.
I hope I'm pronouncing thatright.
Close.
And so I feel I would title itTheose.
I feel like I'm, I feel like I'ma precipice and I'm.

Anyone who's watching maybe saw me roll my
eyes at you.
And it was simply because theconversation five minutes ago
where you asked me if I was apoet, and I was like, no,
because I couldn't come up withsomething so beautiful like it
closed.
That is beautiful.
Ricky, come on.

it's a beautiful word.

Yes.

Yeah,

I love that so much.
Okay.
Tell the people about your brandnew book of poetry.
Death of the first idea

sure.
definitely the first idea is mysecond book.
It comes after, as I mentionedearlier, a 10 year period from
my first book, which is calledBoy with Lauren.
and then in the interim time Itransitioned.
So I moved from presenting aswhat I would've once called
maybe a gay twin boy.

(57:49):
I don't know.
I never had term, I never hadterms for it because it never
felt in one sense, necessary.
And in the other sense, Just,possible, because, and I'll come
back to this point, but I didtransition over the 10 years,
the 10 year span.
And, towards the end of thatperiod, I, underwent a series of

(58:10):
transformative events in mylife.
Some of them violent, some ofthem romantically, some of them
lovely.
And so the book tries to, andnot.
Autobiographical way, but morein a mythological way.
it tracks those sentiments andit's while also presenting to a
readership, some antecedents forwhere trans life, and you can

(58:35):
extend that to queer or gaylife.
where it arrives from, which isantiquity.
That's why I'm way back like.
Skip this latest millennium andget to the ones before that for
some exciting times.

Yeah, I, it's very much that saying of you
have to know where you came fromto know where you're going, or
something like that.

Yeah.
And it's tricky because when, asyou look back at the past in
terms of identity, it'sdifficult.
It's a hazy pro project becausethe language has only so
recently arrived to describe gaypeople or to describe.
Black people who are free.
And so when you go back and youtry to look for your antecedent,

(59:13):
you have to go, you have to belike a mystery writer.
It,

Uncover what it would yeah

for me.
I like to do that.
I like reading.
I just enjoy, that kind ofproject.
But, beyond that, the poem justspilled out of that one place
and, hopefully presented asbeauty.

I have, I in one of the hats that I wear is a
theater director, and wheneverI'm directing a show, I often
talk about how.
My actors shouldn't be afraid toplay in the rehearsal room and
see what sort of comes up andtry new things.
Because I'm a firm believer inthe first idea isn't necessarily

(59:55):
the best idea, and it might noteven be until you get to the
sixth, seventh, or eighth thatyou find the one that makes the
most sense.
So the book title.
Really resonates with me.
Where does that come from foryou?
I can I could surmise,poetically, but if you wanted
speak about how you wanted to,why you wanted to call your book

Rickey Laurentiis (01:00:13):
call it that.
first I wanna say, I think itwas Ginsburg who said the first
idea, the best idea, which I'venever.
if you could be so lucky.
for anything, only Beyonce wakesup flawless.
Only she does.
So I don't know.
I don't, I I wonder, because youwrote how, which is this long,
prophetic text.

(01:00:33):
I'm like, you didn't just burntthat out in one go.
this, so it takes Manifestalmost anything, except for my
title.
Death was the first idea was thefirst thing I heard.
It just, it arrived.
I received it.
I heard it in my head.
I said, oh, that's interesting.
I wonder what that could mean.

(01:00:55):
Now, this is maybe at thispoint, eight years ago when this
is happening, I haven'ttransitioned.
I haven't moved from Brooklyn toPittsburgh, to New Orleans.
I haven't, I'm an adult.
I'm working as a poet, but Ihaven't yet gone to the second
book, which in many ways, it, itfunctions more like a third book
or a fourth book, because.
So much has arrived in theinterim span of time.

(01:01:17):
but like I said, the title cameto me and it, and usually
titles, usually I was theopposite way.
Usually I will write the thingand then I'll title it.
I'll struggle with titles often,but that has reversed.
and I think that's fitting.
I used to be a very, I wascapable, but I was shy, almost
painfully and over s of myselfand everyone else in.

(01:01:40):
To, and I was hesitant to titlemyself just like I did before a
gay, I dunno.

Jason Blitman (01:01:46):
Yeah

I grew into the title with this book, and so
I realized that, and in just theplain, quotidian way, the first
idea is just simply your firstnotion of yourself, which under
which necessarily, I'm 36 or 37.
A hazy project.
It's a hazy kind of notionbecause you were literally

(01:02:08):
adjusting to the world you weregrowing.
Like I think about when we wereborn, we're literally here for
the first time.
So we are trying to adjust toliving as opposed in, in
addition to also living withthis idea of the self in
addition to developing thatself.
and I'm not convinced that.
Frankly, anyone gets it or gotit right.

(01:02:29):
But I'm not convinced that, I'mnot convinced of the narrative
that only straight people havethat confirmed.
And then, gay people, transpeople, queer people are delayed
in that knowledge.
And if they are delayed, whosefault is that?
don't know.
that's my answer to that

I always say in general, becoming an adult to me
meant realizing that no adultknows what they're doing and
we're all making it up as we goalong.

Yeah Yeah.
I think I, I realized that Ihave that same kind of re
revelation when I realized, Iwas like, why am I scrutinizing
myself based on imagined,monologues and strangers heads
when probably they're justthinking about their own lives,
their own day, their own andthey probably.

(01:03:20):
They are adults usually, andthey have no idea, they have no
more idea of what to do here orthere than I do in this second.
And so it was like an ego death,it goes back to the title two.
it's an ego death that, that Iunderwent.
That was really exciting for mebecause it also allowed me to,
it allowed me to get to the nextpart of that sentence, what you
just said, adulting is therealization that, you know.

(01:03:42):
Probably most adults dunno whatthey're doing here and there.
And I would just add, and alsoto give grace for that, which
doesn't mean be a peoplepleaser, which doesn't mean be a
pushover, but to exchange gracewith each other as we would, as
we do often with children.
we're very

Who are learning

you can't always be that way with an
adult, you can give them somenotion of grades and it allows
you to be, Poised and, capable,I think,

Yeah.
I think that's such a great wayto put it because, realizing
that none of us know what we'redoing and in turn have grace and
patience with the other peoplearound you who don't, also don't
know what they're doing.

especially your family to do

yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

I still hold my family to court, I, but I
also recognize what Grace does.

Good for you.
Have you ever thought aboutwriting a novel?

yeah.
yes, I have, I feel like all mywriterly career is To with the
notion of novel.
And so frankly, I'm just like, Iknow I'm gonna do it eventually,
but what will it, be like,because I know it's not gonna be
straight fiction.
It's not, I'm not that.
get that where you get that you,I poet.
It seems important to, toremember that I'm, but yeah, the

(01:05:01):
answer to your question is yes.

And I ask because I have learned that one of my
favorite, it's not even a subgenre, but something that I made
up in my mind is the novel bythe poet because.
Kave Akbar's book, Sean Hewitt'sbooks, Erika Sanchez's books,
ocean Wong's books.
They're all, they're poets.
And then the

A memoir, but you'll, you the.

Yeah, Erica Sanchez's crying in the
Bathroom.
Her memoir of essays is one ofmy favorite books.

yeah.
what makes you love them as apoet?
what makes it special for you?

It's, that is such a good question because I
don't know, I think'cause poetssee the world in such a specific
way and in turn it, it poems arean economy of words

Right, necessarily.

You often feel like books by poets regardless
of how long they are.
Every word or every idea reallymatters.
that to me comes across on thepage

Yeah.
The words are weighted in adifferent way than what I meant
when I said straight, straightPS or straight fiction.

Yes, exactly.

a different, it's a different negotiation
with language.

If I got to put in a request for a poem of the
future for me, I would love forit to be with the title only
Beyonce.
Wakes up flawless

Only Beyonce with Aala.
I'm gonna it down.

if I got to request a Ricky Loren

You.
know there's a only Beyonce withAala.

You.
Those are your words.
I'm just repeating your wordsback to you.

Do know book There's a book?
There's a book of poetry thatyou might enjoy, by Morgan
Parker called Their MoreBeautiful Things in Beyonce.

fun

you.
probably will like that book.
I suggest There are morebeautiful things than Beyonce.
I think that's only Beyoncewakes flawless.

Your words, Ricky, your

she wakes up so flawless that she gets up and
immediately drops and hit like.
That's not human.
that's not normal level.
It's one thing to wake up and belike, damn, I look good and
still look good, but look thatgood.
And to rush to the studio and tosay, I have to cut.

(01:07:22):
You know, Beyonce needs tostudied, you know, she's a
wonderful, wonderful, wonderfulidol.
But she must be

I would read your dissertation.
I

I'm I.

I love it.
Are you kidding me?
This is my brand.
Rickey Laurentiis thank you somuch for being my guest gay
reader today.
This is fabulous.
Everybody go get your copy ofdeath of the First Idea.
It is out now and I think we allowe it to ourselves to.
Become more interested in poetryif we're afraid of it.

(01:07:55):
I'm gonna face my

Could I read, could I read to you on before we

Would you please, I honestly I fantasized about
this, but I didn't wanna put youon the spot.

Fan.
I love people fantasizing aboutme.
Do it more often.
no.
I'm gonna, yeah.
I like, I'm a poet, so eventhough I'm embarrassed, I like
poems.
So I'm gonna

Yes.
joy.

this is a short one.
Um, it's called disappointment.
I think writing through mycrisis at my crisis, during
crisis, this disappointed me,where before I was fixed, so
high black, Turin.
Now that I think it don't matterwhat I think, the tower, the
full doubt equipped me with thesevere patience, doubt took over

(01:08:39):
my mouth and named convenience.
If I rode brass horsesthundering in my head, I said
nothing.
If I said nothing, death, so amoon instead composed me.
Pearl.
I disappointed everyone, Orisha,even the aunt look, they dessert
me with the repeal of myso-called genius and that's

(01:09:00):
that.

Lovely.
Oh, thank you so much forreading

You're welcome.
Yeah.

I can't wait for all of us to dive in.

Yeah, it'll be fun.
Thank you.
Angela Ricky, thank you so muchboth for being here.
Everyone, check out thewilderness and death of the
first idea, both books out now,wherever you get your books.
Have a wonderful rest of yourday and I will see you next
week.
Bye.

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