August 15, 2025 • 31 mins
THE SUNFLOWER BOYS by Sam Wachman is a terrific debut that delivers exactly the kind of deeply necessary storytelling we need right now. Sam crafts a profoundly moving narrative that tackles urgent contemporary themes with sensitivity and power—yes, it takes place at the beginning of the war in Ukraine in 2022, but it's so much more than that.
In this *spoiler free* conversation, Sam shares inspiration for the novel, details about the writing process, and much more.
Sam Wachman is a writer from Cambridge, Massachusetts with Ukrainian roots. His short fiction has appeared in Sonora Review, Berkeley Fiction Review, and New England Review. Before writing The Sunflower Boys, he taught English to primary schoolers in central Ukraine and worked with refugee families in Europe and the United States.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Gays reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what, andwhy.
Anyone can listen.
Comes we are spoiler free.
Reading from Stars to book clubpicks.
The curious minds can get theirpicks.
So you say you're not gay.
(00:24):
Well that's okay.
There's something for everyone.
Gays rating.
Hello and welcome to GaysReading.
I'm your host, Jason Blitman,and welcome to this bonus
episode.
I'm so excited because today Iget to announce the September
(00:46):
Gays Reading Book Club Pick,which is The Sunflower Boys by
Sam Walkman, you could check outthe link in the show notes and
in the link tree over onInstagram, to join the book club
through altoa.
Your first book is only$1, so gocheck that out today.
Uh, if you are not alreadyfollowing Gay's reading on
(01:07):
Instagram, we are just at GaysReading and I'm currently
partnering with Vintage Books todo a really fun giveaway, so go
check that out over onInstagram.
And also I just last night wasin conversation in person with
an author, and I have to justtell you about this book.
The book is called IndianCountry by Shoba Rao, and it is
(01:28):
one of the best books that I'veread this year.
It is absolutely gonna be in mytop 10 books of this year, and
I'm not seeing it all over theplace, and I need to be seeing
it all over the place.
So I just needed to tell.
All the people that I know.
Um, and that's mostly you.
So check out Indian Country byShow Barra.
Highly recommend.
It's a beautiful book.
Um, and now please enjoy myconversation with Sam Wachman
(01:52):
all about the September GaysReading Book Club.
Pick the Sunflower Boys.
Jason Blitman (01:58):
Sam Wachman, welcome to Gay's Reading.
Sam Wachman (02:00):
Oh, thank you.
Very glad to be here.
Jason Blitman (02:02):
I am very glad to have you.
This is a Super SpecialMidsummer, even though we're on
a break Bonus episode.
Sam Wachman (02:12):
Oh, I didn't know that.
Jason Blitman (02:14):
Yes.
Because we are here to talkabout not only your debut, but
the newest Gays reading a bookclub.
Pick your book, the SunflowerBoys.
Sam Wachman (02:27):
Fantastic.
Is
Jason Blitman (02:28):
Do you have a finished copy yet?
How
Sam Wachman (02:30):
I've got 25 finished topics.
I actually gave away 24, so thisis the last one.
Jason Blitman (02:37):
the last man standing?
I have made it a rule that formy book club, I'm only allowed
to have beautiful covers.
Sam Wachman (02:44):
Oh I love this cover.
I feel so lucky that they gavethey gave me at Harper so much
say,
Jason Blitman (02:51):
Oh yeah.
Sam Wachman (02:52):
yeah.
They they gave me a bunch ofdifferent options and I said,
can we go with it?
Another option that you didn'tgive me?
And we had a bunch of back andforths about it.
I have no idea who the artistis.
I really wish that I knew that Icould like, give them a hug or
maybe like a lot of money.
Jason Blitman (03:10):
They probably received a lot of money, but not
from you.
But a hug they'd probably takeor a shout out on social media
or something.
Sam Wachman (03:17):
Yeah.
Seriously, I,
Jason Blitman (03:19):
What was your, when you said you did a lot of
back and forth, what was thesort of inspo for this cover?
Sam Wachman (03:25):
There were originally a couple of
different, proposals from the, Idon't know if it was one artist
or like the, a bunch of artiststhat Harper has.
And it came down to one of theoptions was this cover boat with
just one bicycle.
And with kind of like differentlighting and different colors
and stuff.
And my agent was involved and mymom, who's an art teacher, was
involved and my mom suggestedlike maybe there should be two
(03:47):
bicycles.
'cause there's two
Jason Blitman (03:49):
Yes, it is, this cover would not be the same
without a second bicycle.
Sam Wachman (03:52):
I agree.
Yeah.
So does my mom, so she, my mom,
Jason Blitman (03:57):
I love that she's an art teacher and that she had
a say in your cover.
Sam Wachman (04:01):
oh, absolutely.
No, she's had a, she's had a sayin quite a lot of this.
Jason Blitman (04:05):
That is really fun.
It's beautiful and someonepointed out to me that it's
giving like a European cover,like a UK cover, because a lot
of UK books have the frame.
Sam Wachman (04:18):
Oh, interesting.
I had no idea.
Jason Blitman (04:20):
Neither did I, and then he pointed that out to
me and I was like, oh, I, now Isee that.
Anyway, that's my little insideintel for
Sam Wachman (04:27):
I didn't realize that covers.
Would vary by, I guess it makessense that they would vary by
the country where they'republished, but I had no idea.
Thank you for enlightening meabout the book a little bit.
I'm such an outsider to all ofthis.
Jason Blitman (04:38):
how, so I'm curious about this journey for
you.
What you call yourself anoutsider, what does that mean?
Sam Wachman (04:46):
I feel like an outsider to all this insofar as
it's my debut and I have no MFAor anything.
I have a bachelor's in somethingvery unrelated and I
Jason Blitman (04:55):
is your bachelor's degree in?
Sam Wachman (04:57):
public health, I'm not using that ever.
Jason Blitman (05:00):
Listen, you never know.
Sam Wachman (05:02):
Maybe.
I don't know.
I was like pre-med and then Istopped hating myself and so by
the way, I we're not giving anymore airtime to ami, but he was
also at Brandeis for a year anda half and then stopped being at
Brandeis, and I think he wasalso pre-med for a year and a
half.
So yeah.
Jason Blitman (05:18):
You're following in the footsteps
Sam Wachman (05:19):
Following in his footsteps.
Jason Blitman (05:20):
I happened to have a picnic with
Sam Wachman (05:22):
up maybe in 10 years.
I'll end up having a picnic withyou.
Jason Blitman (05:25):
Yes.
Perfect.
Maybe, probably sooner if we'rebeing honest.
Sam Wachman (05:29):
hope so.
I hope so.
Jason Blitman (05:31):
Okay.
So you feel like an outsider.
Sam Wachman (05:33):
I definitely feel like an outsider to all of this.
I didn't for example, I didn'thave a finished manuscript or
even an idea already when I metmy agent, I had written a short
story and she reached out to meand she was like, do you want an
agent?
And I said, yeah, thanks.
And
Jason Blitman (05:47):
We're gonna need to cut that because any
Sam Wachman (05:49):
I know, oh.
Jason Blitman (05:51):
wants to be an author that is just like not,
that's fake news.
Sam Wachman (05:55):
There's a lot here you're gonna need to cut.
Yeah.
But definitely feeling like I'mlearning a lot about the
publishing world for the firsttime.
There's and there's a lot that Ithink people have been spending
years and decades rehearsing forthat I'm just thinking about
now.
Jason Blitman (06:10):
Okay, for our listeners, what is the elevator
pitch for the Sunflower Boys?
And this one can be a longerelevator ride if you want it to
be.
Sam Wachman (06:20):
Like longer than like a sentence or, okay.
Never been good at these it's.
Jason Blitman (06:25):
Nobody is.
It's okay.
Sam Wachman (06:27):
It's a coming of age story set in Ukraine,
following a preteen boy Artembefore and during the war.
As he struggles to understandhis nascent sexuality.
And he asks what it means to bea good brother and a good son
and a good man.
I think that was actually justone sentence.
Jason Blitman (06:47):
Yeah, look, a couple commas in there.
Sam Wachman (06:50):
Yeah.
Maybe semicolon.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (06:52):
Maybe a semicolon.
I don't really know how to use asemicolon properly,
Sam Wachman (06:55):
one does.
Don't worry.
Jason Blitman (06:56):
probably let's just stick one in for the sake
of
Sam Wachman (06:58):
Sounds good.
Jason Blitman (06:59):
It'll make us look smart.
Sam Wachman (07:01):
Oh yeah, for sure.
Absolutely.
Jason Blitman (07:03):
My poor high school English teacher
Sam Wachman (07:05):
My poor high school English teacher is going to be
at the book launch.
Don't think I was the beststudent.
I did not like reading.
This is another thing that mademe, I think.
A outsider or whatever to thewhole literary world is that I
hated reading in high school.
Jason Blitman (07:18):
Did you, is that, has that changed for you?
Do you like reading now?
Sam Wachman (07:22):
Yeah I'm okay with it.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (07:25):
Not all.
Not all writers like reading, so
Sam Wachman (07:28):
that's like most of the job.
I think that you should ingest alot more literature than you
create for
Jason Blitman (07:35):
I think there are people who like creating worlds
and who are storytellers and whoI just heard someone when, okay.
I don't wanna say who I heard,say this because that'll give
something, that'll give afeature episode away, but I just
heard somebody say this thatwhen you're a kid.
(07:57):
Making up stories out loud islying, but if you write them
down, then it's storytelling.
So I imagine there are somepeople who are like professional
liars and so they put it down onthe page rather than enjoy
reading.
Sam Wachman (08:11):
Yes.
I think that is a part of it.
I've never been like apathological liar, but I
understand the urge.
I get bored easily, I think, andI like to come up with things to
say, even if they're not true,just to spice up the
conversation.
I'm not gonna do that with you.
Don't worry.
Jason Blitman (08:28):
And if you did, that's okay too.
When did you start enjoyingreading?
Sam Wachman (08:33):
I feel like I started enjoying reading in
probably in college.
I have slash had a fantasticprofessor who's also a writer
Steven McCauley who he startedassigning me short stories to
read.
And I feel like that was.
That was the first time that Ireally enjoyed just the act of
(08:53):
reading for the sake of readingitself.
I, he's a creative writingprofessor and I didn't have a
lot of creative writing relatedaspirations at the time, but I
had also known him since I wassix because he used to.
He used to sit and write at likethe cafe that my mom used to sit
(09:13):
me at while she taught.
Like she didn't wanna hire ababysitter or whatever, so she
was just like sitting down at acafe and be like, here take
this, have this strange gay manwatch you for a while I teach.
And that strange gay man endedup being my professor.
Yeah.
And so I figured, okay, if he'steaching at my university, I
have to take a class with him.
Jason Blitman (09:30):
How fun.
Sam Wachman (09:31):
Yeah.
And I asked him if he rememberedme and he did not, but.
But I then later on, a yearlater I reminded him that he
used to quiz me on the capitalsof different countries.
And he remembered, he was like,you didn't get Lichtenstein.
That was the one I stumped youon.
Jason Blitman (09:45):
Oh, how funny
Sam Wachman (09:46):
Steve, I was special to you.
Jason Blitman (09:48):
was that are you known for knowing the capitals
of countries?
Sam Wachman (09:52):
I think I was at that age, I think that I wanted
to be known for that.
Jason Blitman (09:57):
Is that a thing you can do now?
Still?
Sam Wachman (10:00):
I guess you could try.
I think I'm prob probably prettyrusty.
Jason Blitman (10:03):
I wouldn't know.
This would be that situationwhere I would say something and
you could lie to me and it wouldspice up the conversation.
'cause I wouldn't know thedifference.
Okay, so you talk about thisbook coming of Age Story during
the war in the Ukraine.
It takes place in 2022.
Sam Wachman (10:19):
it does.
Jason Blitman (10:20):
It is a very prescient novel.
Sam Wachman (10:23):
Yeah I thank you.
And that was not entirelyintentional.
It was, I started writing it in2019 it was obviously a very
different novel at that point.
I had my grandparents also'sgreat grandparents.
I'll say that sentence withoutthat, so that
Jason Blitman (10:41):
That's okay.
No, we could talk about AMI asmuch as we want.
It's fine.
He can get shout outs.
Sam Wachman (10:46):
My great grandparents came from Ukraine.
And my grandparents were moreconnected to it than my parents
were, and then more connected toit than I was.
As tends to happen when youassimilate to Canada and the us
and and in college, I.
Decided to go to Ukraine orquote unquote go back to
Ukraine, return to Ukraine tounder the guise of improving my
(11:09):
language skills.
Because at that point I reallyonly knew how to say grandparent
things in Ukrainian.
Eat something you're wastingaway.
You know it.
Jason Blitman (11:18):
How do you say that?
Sam Wachman (11:20):
Yeah.
And and.
Actually the real reason wasthat I wanted to understand my
own relationship to the countrya bit better, my family's
relationship.
It's not a simple relationship'cause we're Jews and it's a
whole, it's a whole complicatedhistory that I wanted to figure
out like, can I belong to thisplace?
Do I feel like I belong to thisplace?
(11:40):
Or is this just like a foreigncountry where people that I'm
related to happen to live for awhile?
And it.
Really turned out to be theformer.
I definitely fell in love withthe place a lot and also found
just a sense of community andbelonging and really fell in
love with Ukrainian literatureas well.
Jason Blitman (11:58):
Was there something that surprised you
about that?
Sam Wachman (12:01):
there was a lot that surprised me about that.
Yeah.
I, I think that there are a lotof things that, uh.
How do I put this?
Small details that I wouldnotice that would just remind me
of my grandparents and I wouldthink I, I thought that was just
something about my grandparents,but actually it's something that
exists in an entire country.
(12:22):
Certain, a certain spice, acertain food, a certain figure
of speech or mannerism or way ofholding yourself or way of
decorating your house.
It just it all felt very muchlike home in a sort of a way
that maybe I should haveexpected, but I
Jason Blitman (12:36):
I imagine that if you assumed that it was unique
to your grandparents, why wouldyou anticipate going to an
entire, going to a country andhaving the entire country feel
that way
Sam Wachman (12:46):
Yeah, actually there's 40 million people who do
this.
Yeah.
So I ended up teaching Englishthere at a one room schoolhouse
in the middle of nowhere.
And I had at any given point, Ihad 10 ish kids.
The youngest ones were aboutYuri's age, and the oldest ones
were about EM'S age.
And and that was really whatmade me want to start writing
(13:08):
about the place was just that Ifigured, it was a place that
really touched me.
It was the first place that I'dever really lived away from my
parents as well, which I thinkdefinitely had a, played a role
in it.
But it, I think that it was justa really, it was originally
meant as a love letter fromDiaspora to Homeland, I think.
And also I had, at that point, Ihad a student who confided in me
(13:32):
about his own sexuality.
And I was just, for me, that wasalso a revelatory moment
because, the experience of being13 and gay in Cambridge,
Massachusetts versus in likerural Ukraine was, couldn't be
more different.
Ukraine is getting better onthat front.
(13:52):
And has gotten the environmenthas changed quite a lot since
the war, and so far as I thinkthat Ukrainian politics and
Ukrainian society had beenpushed a little bit toward
Europe.
But at that time it was stillvery much.
Even more taboo than it is now,I'd say.
Whereas like I grew up I guess Ijust never considered the, it
sounds very stupid to say, butI'd never considered the
(14:14):
possibility of homophobia beinglike a real life thing.
I'd never encountered it.
I grew up in a very progressivefamily.
I, I knew intellectually that itexisted in real life, but it was
I also knew intellectually thatlike polar bears existed in real
life.
I just never seen one.
Didn't feel real until Iencountered it.
Yeah,
Jason Blitman (14:33):
Yeah.
And so that was the impetus forstarting to write, but then what
was the journey like from 2019to finishing the novel?
Because you said it started outas one thing turned into
another.
Sam Wachman (14:45):
It did.
Yeah.
It started out as very much aslice of life coming of age
story, more atmospheric thanpropulsive.
Like definitely just wanted togive it an impression of a place
and a time, and a and a.
Person rather than have it be assuspenseful as the finished
product is'cause that suspensewas absent from real life at the
(15:07):
time.
And
Jason Blitman (15:08):
Sure.
Sam Wachman (15:09):
yeah.
Yeah.
And so it was very different.
I read recently Open Heaven bySean Hewitt and it reminded me a
lot of what my alpha could havebeen.
Jason Blitman (15:16):
Absolutely.
Yes.
Former gays reading guest SeanHewitt
Sam Wachman (15:20):
oh really?
Jason Blitman (15:21):
Uhhuh.
Sam Wachman (15:22):
Oh, no way.
Okay.
Fantastic.
Great company.
I had a around a hundred pagesof manuscript half finished a
lot of insert scene here later,do this later.
It's that I left in and then Iwas studying abroad in Denmark
for my last semester of college.
(15:42):
When tensions started.
Increasing in Ukraine in EasternEurope in general.
And I definitely, I just, Iremember on the night of
February 23rd, which was thenight before the war, I got a
text from a student.
He was like nervous about acompetition that he was
participating in.
(16:02):
And we texted for a little whileand then said goodnight.
And then nine hours later hecalled me and he was like, we're
in a basement.
There's missiles.
Outside.
And he like held his phone tothe door and you could hear
airer raid sirens.
And I was like, but that's notgood.
And so that was the moment whereI entirely abandoned my book for
a year.
(16:23):
I think that the active writingfelt.
F both frivolous and just atthat point it was anachronistic.
I was writing about a countrythat no longer existed in a
place that didn't exist in thesame way.
Obviously the country continuesto exist, but it's been changed
at like the DNA level.
Jason Blitman (16:37):
Sure.
It like immediately turned intohistorical fiction.
Sam Wachman (16:40):
exactly.
Yeah.
And I didn't feel like I couldwrite that.
I've, I'm very American and Ididn't feel like I could write
that story.
I didn't feel like I wanted towrite that story.
I spent the year, I flunked thesemester in a really spectacular
fashion.
I like stopped going to class alot.
I went to Berlin where I had.
(17:01):
One of my best friends livedthere and I stayed with her for
a while and I volunteered at theBerlin, like how Bonoff like the
train station deal, centralStation and'cause there was a,
there were tons of Ukrainianscoming in and basically being
directed to various.
Displaced persons camps inGerman cities and needing
medical care and such.
And they needed people who couldspeak both English and Ukrainian
(17:23):
and also Russian.
And and there, there were notmany of those people.
So I figured I was also, I wasan EMT in college, so I was able
to have some, yeah, that was Igot my EMT certification in
college.
I, I spent most of my collegeEMT experience, like rolling
over drunk freshmen, like ontotheir sides.
(17:44):
So wounds sustained duringcombat were a little bit of a
different level, but we figuredit out.
And I, my students all, they'respread to all the winds.
They ended up in Poland and inRomania and in various basements
and in other farther westUkrainian cities that were
safer.
And so I didn't cross the borderat that point.
(18:05):
Honestly, mostly for my mother'ssake.
But I.
I, was in Poland and Romania alot visiting them and I guess
not trying to be like the, bigAmerican savior or whatever, but
trying to just I felt like I wasa part of this community and a
part of this nation in somebizarre way and that I didn't
fully understand, but Idefinitely still feel like
(18:28):
membership and so I wanted to, Iguess at least like bear witness
and.
And experience with the peoplewho I love and care about.
Jason Blitman (18:39):
Yeah.
And.
I, my sort of interpretation ofthe book was this, not
interpretation of the book perse, but of you writing the book
was not American savior so muchas you using your privilege as
an American who has the capacityto write this book and tell this
story and shed light on thiscommunity of people how
Sam Wachman (19:02):
Thank you.
Jason Blitman (19:02):
that, that was my experience with it because it
was, you, you, it felt like youwere doing a service to them.
Sam Wachman (19:08):
Oh I appreciate that.
I've been, that's been a majorpoint of anxiety for me.
I've, to be fair, throughoutwriting this book, I've run
every draft of it past about 10Ukrainian friends, and they've
given me the thumbs up or.
They have helped me identifythings that don't really ring
true or whatever, and we've goneback and changed it.
(19:31):
So I, I do feel like it's beenproofread by Ukrainians who are
way more Ukrainian than I am.
And also at the same time,there's all this discourse right
now about who should tell whichstories.
And I wanna be like, mindful ofthat, but I think I do see it
more as like a, yeah, I think Isee it still as like a love
letter rather than.
Jason Blitman (19:51):
Yeah.
And listen, let's like be veryclear.
You are Ukrainian.
You are just not, you were notborn in Ukraine,
Sam Wachman (19:58):
There we go.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (19:59):
So it's
Sam Wachman (20:00):
Yeah.
And I'm Jewish, which is also a,it's a, some people find it to
be a different thing.
Some Jewish people find it to bea different thing.
Even if they were born inUkraine and all of their
grandparents were or whatever,they might still think of
themselves as more Jewish.
Some Ukrainians might think ofJews as something separate.
It's not everyone, I think thatis a situation that's getting,
that's improving a lot.
(20:20):
Especially now that thepresident of Ukraine, love him
or hate him, is Jewish.
And I think that is changing alot.
But certainly in mygrandparents' time they were a
separate ethnicity.
Jason Blitman (20:30):
Back to your students for a minute.
I know that, so you get thesetext messages, you get these
phone calls and.
A lot of these humans thatyou've grew to know and love and
care about are found in the bookin some capacity.
Sam Wachman (20:48):
absolutely.
Jason Blitman (20:49):
What was that experience like, hearing some of
their stories?
Sam Wachman (20:53):
Yeah.
I'm.
This is very much a love letterto them as well.
And I had the desire to conveythem to the world.
I I love them to bits.
They're I've known them now forsix years which like, I think
that we've seen each other growa lot.
And I think that I just wantedto share these amazing people
with the rest of the world.
It felt unfair that I got all ofthem to myself.
(21:15):
And so I have, this is inspiredparticularly by three or four of
my students who I haven't taughtin years at this point.
They're just younger friends.
Jason Blitman (21:23):
Sure.
Sam Wachman (21:24):
and also by my friend and her son who I met at
the Berlin Central Station.
And.
I asked them where they weregoing and they said, Cambridge,
Massachusetts.
And I said surprise.
And and we ended up very closefriends and her son also very
much inspired Yuri as acharacter.
And so yeah, shout out to Maxim.
(21:46):
So it was a cathartic exerciseas well for me to convey my
students' experiences'cause.
They were texting me, calling mepretty constantly, and I was,
meeting, meeting up with themand their families a lot.
And I didn't really know whereto put all of this.
I would hear the most traumaticshit from them.
And then you go, oh, you are 12.
(22:08):
And I don't know what to do withthat.
'cause that's, it's actuallyworse that you said that'cause
you're 12 and I want to cry now,but I don't know where to, what
to do with that.
I don't want to cry in front ofyou.
So I'm gonna, I'm gonna justwrite this down somewhere and
we're gonna save that for later.
And at the same time, I wantedthe world to know what.
How they were dealing with itand like their resilience and
(22:30):
what they had been through andhow they had, how they were
still continuing to be thesewonderful versions of
themselves, despite everything.
And so one year into the war,like on the, literally on the
anniversary, the one yearanniversary of the war, I was
working at.
A volunteering at a camp inRomania, which was like a
(22:52):
respite camp for Ukrainian kids.
And by some miracle, all four ofthe students who like directly
inspired this.
This book all came to that campfrom like all over Europe which
was a logistical nightmare andsomehow worked out and I'm so
grateful.
And we were all sitting aroundway past.
(23:12):
All of our bedtimes having liketea and cookies and I was mostly
listening and they were likeexchanging stories'cause they
hadn't seen each other in a yeareither.
They were, one of them was inUkraine, one of'em was in
Moldova.
And and I said something like,you guys need to write a book.
And one of us said, you do it.
We're busy.
And so I took that as a blessingto move forward with this.
(23:36):
And I reopened my Google Doc,which had been collecting dust
and fermenting, and I was like,yeah, I, if I really do wanna
write this book, I have to takea hard left turn here and I have
to incorporate the war somehow.
But I still wanted toincorporate Ukraine in its most
peaceful form or the peacefulform in which I knew it.
'cause I wanted the, I wantedalso to convey, I think that.
(23:59):
Like probably if you GoogleUkraine at this point, you go to
Google Images, it's just gonnabe photos of like smoldering
ruins of cities a lot.
And I think that the, to me,that's part of the tragedy is
that the nation was not knownvery well to American
readerships, to Americans ingeneral.
And I went there and I, I foundlike really.
(24:21):
Truly beautiful place.
And I think that now that it'sjust known for war, I think
that's just like a very unfair,I don't wanna say unfair
representation, but I wanted toalso show the version of Ukraine
that I knew so that peoplecould, could fathom, begin to
fathom what had been lost andthat would maybe also make
(24:45):
people care about, about gettingit back.
Jason Blitman (24:49):
And.
And about what these people ingeneral, but what these two
young people are losing.
Sam Wachman (24:57):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Jason Blitman (24:59):
At the heart of it, for me, it is this story of
these brothers.
Sam Wachman (25:04):
Yeah, I think so too.
Jason Blitman (25:06):
Are you a sibling?
Sam Wachman (25:07):
Weirdly, I'm not,
Jason Blitman (25:09):
Really?
You are an only child.
Sam Wachman (25:10):
am an only child.
Jason Blitman (25:12):
Fascinating.
Sam Wachman (25:13):
Maybe that's why I was able to write such a like
loving sibling relationship is'cause I actually don't have any
annoying siblings to,
Jason Blitman (25:18):
No sibling trauma?
Sam Wachman (25:20):
yeah.
Jason Blitman (25:22):
I am the oldest of three and uh, yeah, at the
end of the day, for me it wasvery much about their
relationship.
It.
This is gonna sound crazy toyou, to my listeners, to anyone
who maybe has read the book orwill read the book.
However, I'm gonna stand myground and hold to this thought.
Sam Wachman (25:44):
Go for it.
Jason Blitman (25:45):
It is giving some version of a modern sound of
music.
Sam Wachman (25:54):
I need to process that for a moment.
Can you like okay.
I, hold on.
I'm still working on that one.
Can you help me get like halfwaythere?
Jason Blitman (26:04):
So there is joy and love and happiness in a time
of like great despair.
Sam Wachman (26:13):
Yeah.
Okay.
Jason Blitman (26:14):
And at the end of Sound of Music, do you, are you
familiar?
Sam Wachman (26:19):
Yeah, I watched it when I was like 10 and that's
the last,
Jason Blitman (26:23):
Okay.
The family escapes over themountains, over the Alps to
escape the Nazis.
So they like sing.
They sing Re Me, but then theyalso are in this war torn space.
Sam Wachman (26:39):
Okay.
I, yeah, that does make sense.
I see the para.
Yeah.
Thank
Jason Blitman (26:42):
You see how I got there?
Sam Wachman (26:43):
my memory there.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (26:44):
Okay.
But I, but there is this sortof, there's just this element
of, joy within, uh, a veryhorrific.
Experience to someone who mightsay, war, death bombs kids, I
(27:04):
don't wanna read that.
What would you, is there, whatwould you say to them?
Sam Wachman (27:09):
I do think that the book is about much more than
that.
Jason Blitman (27:11):
I fully agree with you, but if that's what
someone is
Sam Wachman (27:14):
would I say to them?
I do think it's a joyful book,even if it's also marred by
tragedy.
I think that oh gosh.
I don't, honestly, I think thatif you don't wanna read a book
about like war and kids andstuff they probably
Jason Blitman (27:26):
Yeah, no, it's not the right book
Sam Wachman (27:28):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (27:29):
but I guess the point is that it is so much more
than that.
It is not just a book about war.
Sam Wachman (27:35):
And I appreciate that came across because I think
that, one of the ways thatUkrainians have been dealing
with with everything that'shappened is through dark humor
and also just finding joy insmall moments and the.
Obviously it's very difficult tofind good things that have come
from the war.
(27:56):
I will say that the sense ofcommunity and the way that
communities have been galvanizedto help one another and to get
to know their neighbors and theneighbors needs and to really be
there for each other issomething that I find really
admirable.
And I think that finding,salvaging some.
(28:18):
Something good from the wreckageis something that I wanted to
also convey in the book.
And also portraying theresilience of people and of kids
who do experience war and who dowitness war crimes.
And it seems like it's somethingthat you can't come back from.
And it's true that it's like youthe direction of your life is
probably going to changeirreparably, but.
(28:40):
You continue living and you kidsare incredibly resilient and
people are incredibly resilient.
And and I have seen kids, I'veseen my kids really end up, they
get dug up in the most violentway possible and it seems like
they just left their roots inthe soil and they're not gonna
(29:01):
make it.
And then they're planted in newsoil and they just continue to
grow.
Jason Blitman (29:05):
I love that.
This has been I've talked moredetails about a book than I
typically do.
Mostly because it's this bookclub pick and I want people to
learn more about it and getexcited to read it.
And yeah, I am, I don't wannagive anything from the book away
obviously, but, so I'm excitedfor folks to.
Hear what you've just said andthen experience it and maybe get
(29:30):
some more insight and glimmersinto this really beautiful
story.
Sam Wachman (29:35):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate you pickingthis and spotlighting it and
then chatting with me.
I think that you've, yeah, youhave made this a truly non-car
experience.
This is my, one of my firsttimes speaking about the book
out loud to someone.
And I think that writers don'tusually become writers'cause
they're good at talking topeople.
So thank you for making this sounintimidating.
Jason Blitman (29:55):
I cannot wait for everyone to read the Sunflower
Boys.
A, it is out now wherever booksare sold.
But b, you really should jointhe Gays Reading Book Club with
Altoa.
The link is in the show notesand the bio, all the things.
Check it out.
Join the club.
Be a part of the conversation.
Read it as a group.
I can't wait for everyone toread it.
Sam Wachman (30:16):
Thank you so much, Jason.
Gays reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what, andwhy.
Anyone can listen.
Comes we are spoiler free.
Reading from Stars to book clubpicks.
The curious minds can get theirpicks.
So you say you're not gay.
(00:24):
Well that's okay.
There's something for everyone.
Gays rating.
Hello and welcome to GaysReading.
I'm your host, Jason Blitman,and welcome to this bonus
episode.
I'm so excited because today Iget to announce the September
(00:46):
Gays Reading Book Club Pick,which is The Sunflower Boys by
Sam Walkman, you could check outthe link in the show notes and
in the link tree over onInstagram, to join the book club
through altoa.
Your first book is only$1, so gocheck that out today.
Uh, if you are not alreadyfollowing Gay's reading on
(01:07):
Instagram, we are just at GaysReading and I'm currently
partnering with Vintage Books todo a really fun giveaway, so go
check that out over onInstagram.
And also I just last night wasin conversation in person with
an author, and I have to justtell you about this book.
The book is called IndianCountry by Shoba Rao, and it is
(01:28):
one of the best books that I'veread this year.
It is absolutely gonna be in mytop 10 books of this year, and
I'm not seeing it all over theplace, and I need to be seeing
it all over the place.
So I just needed to tell.
All the people that I know.
Um, and that's mostly you.
So check out Indian Country byShow Barra.
Highly recommend.
It's a beautiful book.
Um, and now please enjoy myconversation with Sam Wachman
(01:52):
all about the September GaysReading Book Club.
Pick the Sunflower Boys.
Jason Blitman (01:58):
Sam Wachman, welcome to Gay's Reading.
Sam Wachman (02:00):
Oh, thank you.
Very glad to be here.
Jason Blitman (02:02):
I am very glad to have you.
This is a Super SpecialMidsummer, even though we're on
a break Bonus episode.
Sam Wachman (02:12):
Oh, I didn't know that.
Jason Blitman (02:14):
Yes.
Because we are here to talkabout not only your debut, but
the newest Gays reading a bookclub.
Pick your book, the SunflowerBoys.
Sam Wachman (02:27):
Fantastic.
Is
Jason Blitman (02:28):
Do you have a finished copy yet?
How
Sam Wachman (02:30):
I've got 25 finished topics.
I actually gave away 24, so thisis the last one.
Jason Blitman (02:37):
the last man standing?
I have made it a rule that formy book club, I'm only allowed
to have beautiful covers.
Sam Wachman (02:44):
Oh I love this cover.
I feel so lucky that they gavethey gave me at Harper so much
say,
Jason Blitman (02:51):
Oh yeah.
Sam Wachman (02:52):
yeah.
They they gave me a bunch ofdifferent options and I said,
can we go with it?
Another option that you didn'tgive me?
And we had a bunch of back andforths about it.
I have no idea who the artistis.
I really wish that I knew that Icould like, give them a hug or
maybe like a lot of money.
Jason Blitman (03:10):
They probably received a lot of money, but not
from you.
But a hug they'd probably takeor a shout out on social media
or something.
Sam Wachman (03:17):
Yeah.
Seriously, I,
Jason Blitman (03:19):
What was your, when you said you did a lot of
back and forth, what was thesort of inspo for this cover?
Sam Wachman (03:25):
There were originally a couple of
different, proposals from the, Idon't know if it was one artist
or like the, a bunch of artiststhat Harper has.
And it came down to one of theoptions was this cover boat with
just one bicycle.
And with kind of like differentlighting and different colors
and stuff.
And my agent was involved and mymom, who's an art teacher, was
involved and my mom suggestedlike maybe there should be two
(03:47):
bicycles.
'cause there's two
Jason Blitman (03:49):
Yes, it is, this cover would not be the same
without a second bicycle.
Sam Wachman (03:52):
I agree.
Yeah.
So does my mom, so she, my mom,
Jason Blitman (03:57):
I love that she's an art teacher and that she had
a say in your cover.
Sam Wachman (04:01):
oh, absolutely.
No, she's had a, she's had a sayin quite a lot of this.
Jason Blitman (04:05):
That is really fun.
It's beautiful and someonepointed out to me that it's
giving like a European cover,like a UK cover, because a lot
of UK books have the frame.
Sam Wachman (04:18):
Oh, interesting.
I had no idea.
Jason Blitman (04:20):
Neither did I, and then he pointed that out to
me and I was like, oh, I, now Isee that.
Anyway, that's my little insideintel for
Sam Wachman (04:27):
I didn't realize that covers.
Would vary by, I guess it makessense that they would vary by
the country where they'republished, but I had no idea.
Thank you for enlightening meabout the book a little bit.
I'm such an outsider to all ofthis.
Jason Blitman (04:38):
how, so I'm curious about this journey for
you.
What you call yourself anoutsider, what does that mean?
Sam Wachman (04:46):
I feel like an outsider to all this insofar as
it's my debut and I have no MFAor anything.
I have a bachelor's in somethingvery unrelated and I
Jason Blitman (04:55):
is your bachelor's degree in?
Sam Wachman (04:57):
public health, I'm not using that ever.
Jason Blitman (05:00):
Listen, you never know.
Sam Wachman (05:02):
Maybe.
I don't know.
I was like pre-med and then Istopped hating myself and so by
the way, I we're not giving anymore airtime to ami, but he was
also at Brandeis for a year anda half and then stopped being at
Brandeis, and I think he wasalso pre-med for a year and a
half.
So yeah.
Jason Blitman (05:18):
You're following in the footsteps
Sam Wachman (05:19):
Following in his footsteps.
Jason Blitman (05:20):
I happened to have a picnic with
Sam Wachman (05:22):
up maybe in 10 years.
I'll end up having a picnic withyou.
Jason Blitman (05:25):
Yes.
Perfect.
Maybe, probably sooner if we'rebeing honest.
Sam Wachman (05:29):
hope so.
I hope so.
Jason Blitman (05:31):
Okay.
So you feel like an outsider.
Sam Wachman (05:33):
I definitely feel like an outsider to all of this.
I didn't for example, I didn'thave a finished manuscript or
even an idea already when I metmy agent, I had written a short
story and she reached out to meand she was like, do you want an
agent?
And I said, yeah, thanks.
And
Jason Blitman (05:47):
We're gonna need to cut that because any
Sam Wachman (05:49):
I know, oh.
Jason Blitman (05:51):
wants to be an author that is just like not,
that's fake news.
Sam Wachman (05:55):
There's a lot here you're gonna need to cut.
Yeah.
But definitely feeling like I'mlearning a lot about the
publishing world for the firsttime.
There's and there's a lot that Ithink people have been spending
years and decades rehearsing forthat I'm just thinking about
now.
Jason Blitman (06:10):
Okay, for our listeners, what is the elevator
pitch for the Sunflower Boys?
And this one can be a longerelevator ride if you want it to
be.
Sam Wachman (06:20):
Like longer than like a sentence or, okay.
Never been good at these it's.
Jason Blitman (06:25):
Nobody is.
It's okay.
Sam Wachman (06:27):
It's a coming of age story set in Ukraine,
following a preteen boy Artembefore and during the war.
As he struggles to understandhis nascent sexuality.
And he asks what it means to bea good brother and a good son
and a good man.
I think that was actually justone sentence.
Jason Blitman (06:47):
Yeah, look, a couple commas in there.
Sam Wachman (06:50):
Yeah.
Maybe semicolon.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (06:52):
Maybe a semicolon.
I don't really know how to use asemicolon properly,
Sam Wachman (06:55):
one does.
Don't worry.
Jason Blitman (06:56):
probably let's just stick one in for the sake
of
Sam Wachman (06:58):
Sounds good.
Jason Blitman (06:59):
It'll make us look smart.
Sam Wachman (07:01):
Oh yeah, for sure.
Absolutely.
Jason Blitman (07:03):
My poor high school English teacher
Sam Wachman (07:05):
My poor high school English teacher is going to be
at the book launch.
Don't think I was the beststudent.
I did not like reading.
This is another thing that mademe, I think.
A outsider or whatever to thewhole literary world is that I
hated reading in high school.
Jason Blitman (07:18):
Did you, is that, has that changed for you?
Do you like reading now?
Sam Wachman (07:22):
Yeah I'm okay with it.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (07:25):
Not all.
Not all writers like reading, so
Sam Wachman (07:28):
that's like most of the job.
I think that you should ingest alot more literature than you
create for
Jason Blitman (07:35):
I think there are people who like creating worlds
and who are storytellers and whoI just heard someone when, okay.
I don't wanna say who I heard,say this because that'll give
something, that'll give afeature episode away, but I just
heard somebody say this thatwhen you're a kid.
(07:57):
Making up stories out loud islying, but if you write them
down, then it's storytelling.
So I imagine there are somepeople who are like professional
liars and so they put it down onthe page rather than enjoy
reading.
Sam Wachman (08:11):
Yes.
I think that is a part of it.
I've never been like apathological liar, but I
understand the urge.
I get bored easily, I think, andI like to come up with things to
say, even if they're not true,just to spice up the
conversation.
I'm not gonna do that with you.
Don't worry.
Jason Blitman (08:28):
And if you did, that's okay too.
When did you start enjoyingreading?
Sam Wachman (08:33):
I feel like I started enjoying reading in
probably in college.
I have slash had a fantasticprofessor who's also a writer
Steven McCauley who he startedassigning me short stories to
read.
And I feel like that was.
That was the first time that Ireally enjoyed just the act of
(08:53):
reading for the sake of readingitself.
I, he's a creative writingprofessor and I didn't have a
lot of creative writing relatedaspirations at the time, but I
had also known him since I wassix because he used to.
He used to sit and write at likethe cafe that my mom used to sit
(09:13):
me at while she taught.
Like she didn't wanna hire ababysitter or whatever, so she
was just like sitting down at acafe and be like, here take
this, have this strange gay manwatch you for a while I teach.
And that strange gay man endedup being my professor.
Yeah.
And so I figured, okay, if he'steaching at my university, I
have to take a class with him.
Jason Blitman (09:30):
How fun.
Sam Wachman (09:31):
Yeah.
And I asked him if he rememberedme and he did not, but.
But I then later on, a yearlater I reminded him that he
used to quiz me on the capitalsof different countries.
And he remembered, he was like,you didn't get Lichtenstein.
That was the one I stumped youon.
Jason Blitman (09:45):
Oh, how funny
Sam Wachman (09:46):
Steve, I was special to you.
Jason Blitman (09:48):
was that are you known for knowing the capitals
of countries?
Sam Wachman (09:52):
I think I was at that age, I think that I wanted
to be known for that.
Jason Blitman (09:57):
Is that a thing you can do now?
Still?
Sam Wachman (10:00):
I guess you could try.
I think I'm prob probably prettyrusty.
Jason Blitman (10:03):
I wouldn't know.
This would be that situationwhere I would say something and
you could lie to me and it wouldspice up the conversation.
'cause I wouldn't know thedifference.
Okay, so you talk about thisbook coming of Age Story during
the war in the Ukraine.
It takes place in 2022.
Sam Wachman (10:19):
it does.
Jason Blitman (10:20):
It is a very prescient novel.
Sam Wachman (10:23):
Yeah I thank you.
And that was not entirelyintentional.
It was, I started writing it in2019 it was obviously a very
different novel at that point.
I had my grandparents also'sgreat grandparents.
I'll say that sentence withoutthat, so that
Jason Blitman (10:41):
That's okay.
No, we could talk about AMI asmuch as we want.
It's fine.
He can get shout outs.
Sam Wachman (10:46):
My great grandparents came from Ukraine.
And my grandparents were moreconnected to it than my parents
were, and then more connected toit than I was.
As tends to happen when youassimilate to Canada and the us
and and in college, I.
Decided to go to Ukraine orquote unquote go back to
Ukraine, return to Ukraine tounder the guise of improving my
(11:09):
language skills.
Because at that point I reallyonly knew how to say grandparent
things in Ukrainian.
Eat something you're wastingaway.
You know it.
Jason Blitman (11:18):
How do you say that?
Sam Wachman (11:20):
Yeah.
And and.
Actually the real reason wasthat I wanted to understand my
own relationship to the countrya bit better, my family's
relationship.
It's not a simple relationship'cause we're Jews and it's a
whole, it's a whole complicatedhistory that I wanted to figure
out like, can I belong to thisplace?
Do I feel like I belong to thisplace?
(11:40):
Or is this just like a foreigncountry where people that I'm
related to happen to live for awhile?
And it.
Really turned out to be theformer.
I definitely fell in love withthe place a lot and also found
just a sense of community andbelonging and really fell in
love with Ukrainian literatureas well.
Jason Blitman (11:58):
Was there something that surprised you
about that?
Sam Wachman (12:01):
there was a lot that surprised me about that.
Yeah.
I, I think that there are a lotof things that, uh.
How do I put this?
Small details that I wouldnotice that would just remind me
of my grandparents and I wouldthink I, I thought that was just
something about my grandparents,but actually it's something that
exists in an entire country.
(12:22):
Certain, a certain spice, acertain food, a certain figure
of speech or mannerism or way ofholding yourself or way of
decorating your house.
It just it all felt very muchlike home in a sort of a way
that maybe I should haveexpected, but I
Jason Blitman (12:36):
I imagine that if you assumed that it was unique
to your grandparents, why wouldyou anticipate going to an
entire, going to a country andhaving the entire country feel
that way
Sam Wachman (12:46):
Yeah, actually there's 40 million people who do
this.
Yeah.
So I ended up teaching Englishthere at a one room schoolhouse
in the middle of nowhere.
And I had at any given point, Ihad 10 ish kids.
The youngest ones were aboutYuri's age, and the oldest ones
were about EM'S age.
And and that was really whatmade me want to start writing
(13:08):
about the place was just that Ifigured, it was a place that
really touched me.
It was the first place that I'dever really lived away from my
parents as well, which I thinkdefinitely had a, played a role
in it.
But it, I think that it was justa really, it was originally
meant as a love letter fromDiaspora to Homeland, I think.
And also I had, at that point, Ihad a student who confided in me
(13:32):
about his own sexuality.
And I was just, for me, that wasalso a revelatory moment
because, the experience of being13 and gay in Cambridge,
Massachusetts versus in likerural Ukraine was, couldn't be
more different.
Ukraine is getting better onthat front.
(13:52):
And has gotten the environmenthas changed quite a lot since
the war, and so far as I thinkthat Ukrainian politics and
Ukrainian society had beenpushed a little bit toward
Europe.
But at that time it was stillvery much.
Even more taboo than it is now,I'd say.
Whereas like I grew up I guess Ijust never considered the, it
sounds very stupid to say, butI'd never considered the
(14:14):
possibility of homophobia beinglike a real life thing.
I'd never encountered it.
I grew up in a very progressivefamily.
I, I knew intellectually that itexisted in real life, but it was
I also knew intellectually thatlike polar bears existed in real
life.
I just never seen one.
Didn't feel real until Iencountered it.
Yeah,
Jason Blitman (14:33):
Yeah.
And so that was the impetus forstarting to write, but then what
was the journey like from 2019to finishing the novel?
Because you said it started outas one thing turned into
another.
Sam Wachman (14:45):
It did.
Yeah.
It started out as very much aslice of life coming of age
story, more atmospheric thanpropulsive.
Like definitely just wanted togive it an impression of a place
and a time, and a and a.
Person rather than have it be assuspenseful as the finished
product is'cause that suspensewas absent from real life at the
(15:07):
time.
And
Jason Blitman (15:08):
Sure.
Sam Wachman (15:09):
yeah.
Yeah.
And so it was very different.
I read recently Open Heaven bySean Hewitt and it reminded me a
lot of what my alpha could havebeen.
Jason Blitman (15:16):
Absolutely.
Yes.
Former gays reading guest SeanHewitt
Sam Wachman (15:20):
oh really?
Jason Blitman (15:21):
Uhhuh.
Sam Wachman (15:22):
Oh, no way.
Okay.
Fantastic.
Great company.
I had a around a hundred pagesof manuscript half finished a
lot of insert scene here later,do this later.
It's that I left in and then Iwas studying abroad in Denmark
for my last semester of college.
(15:42):
When tensions started.
Increasing in Ukraine in EasternEurope in general.
And I definitely, I just, Iremember on the night of
February 23rd, which was thenight before the war, I got a
text from a student.
He was like nervous about acompetition that he was
participating in.
(16:02):
And we texted for a little whileand then said goodnight.
And then nine hours later hecalled me and he was like, we're
in a basement.
There's missiles.
Outside.
And he like held his phone tothe door and you could hear
airer raid sirens.
And I was like, but that's notgood.
And so that was the moment whereI entirely abandoned my book for
a year.
(16:23):
I think that the active writingfelt.
F both frivolous and just atthat point it was anachronistic.
I was writing about a countrythat no longer existed in a
place that didn't exist in thesame way.
Obviously the country continuesto exist, but it's been changed
at like the DNA level.
Jason Blitman (16:37):
Sure.
It like immediately turned intohistorical fiction.
Sam Wachman (16:40):
exactly.
Yeah.
And I didn't feel like I couldwrite that.
I've, I'm very American and Ididn't feel like I could write
that story.
I didn't feel like I wanted towrite that story.
I spent the year, I flunked thesemester in a really spectacular
fashion.
I like stopped going to class alot.
I went to Berlin where I had.
(17:01):
One of my best friends livedthere and I stayed with her for
a while and I volunteered at theBerlin, like how Bonoff like the
train station deal, centralStation and'cause there was a,
there were tons of Ukrainianscoming in and basically being
directed to various.
Displaced persons camps inGerman cities and needing
medical care and such.
And they needed people who couldspeak both English and Ukrainian
(17:23):
and also Russian.
And and there, there were notmany of those people.
So I figured I was also, I wasan EMT in college, so I was able
to have some, yeah, that was Igot my EMT certification in
college.
I, I spent most of my collegeEMT experience, like rolling
over drunk freshmen, like ontotheir sides.
(17:44):
So wounds sustained duringcombat were a little bit of a
different level, but we figuredit out.
And I, my students all, they'respread to all the winds.
They ended up in Poland and inRomania and in various basements
and in other farther westUkrainian cities that were
safer.
And so I didn't cross the borderat that point.
(18:05):
Honestly, mostly for my mother'ssake.
But I.
I, was in Poland and Romania alot visiting them and I guess
not trying to be like the, bigAmerican savior or whatever, but
trying to just I felt like I wasa part of this community and a
part of this nation in somebizarre way and that I didn't
fully understand, but Idefinitely still feel like
(18:28):
membership and so I wanted to, Iguess at least like bear witness
and.
And experience with the peoplewho I love and care about.
Jason Blitman (18:39):
Yeah.
And.
I, my sort of interpretation ofthe book was this, not
interpretation of the book perse, but of you writing the book
was not American savior so muchas you using your privilege as
an American who has the capacityto write this book and tell this
story and shed light on thiscommunity of people how
Sam Wachman (19:02):
Thank you.
Jason Blitman (19:02):
that, that was my experience with it because it
was, you, you, it felt like youwere doing a service to them.
Sam Wachman (19:08):
Oh I appreciate that.
I've been, that's been a majorpoint of anxiety for me.
I've, to be fair, throughoutwriting this book, I've run
every draft of it past about 10Ukrainian friends, and they've
given me the thumbs up or.
They have helped me identifythings that don't really ring
true or whatever, and we've goneback and changed it.
(19:31):
So I, I do feel like it's beenproofread by Ukrainians who are
way more Ukrainian than I am.
And also at the same time,there's all this discourse right
now about who should tell whichstories.
And I wanna be like, mindful ofthat, but I think I do see it
more as like a, yeah, I think Isee it still as like a love
letter rather than.
Jason Blitman (19:51):
Yeah.
And listen, let's like be veryclear.
You are Ukrainian.
You are just not, you were notborn in Ukraine,
Sam Wachman (19:58):
There we go.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (19:59):
So it's
Sam Wachman (20:00):
Yeah.
And I'm Jewish, which is also a,it's a, some people find it to
be a different thing.
Some Jewish people find it to bea different thing.
Even if they were born inUkraine and all of their
grandparents were or whatever,they might still think of
themselves as more Jewish.
Some Ukrainians might think ofJews as something separate.
It's not everyone, I think thatis a situation that's getting,
that's improving a lot.
(20:20):
Especially now that thepresident of Ukraine, love him
or hate him, is Jewish.
And I think that is changing alot.
But certainly in mygrandparents' time they were a
separate ethnicity.
Jason Blitman (20:30):
Back to your students for a minute.
I know that, so you get thesetext messages, you get these
phone calls and.
A lot of these humans thatyou've grew to know and love and
care about are found in the bookin some capacity.
Sam Wachman (20:48):
absolutely.
Jason Blitman (20:49):
What was that experience like, hearing some of
their stories?
Sam Wachman (20:53):
Yeah.
I'm.
This is very much a love letterto them as well.
And I had the desire to conveythem to the world.
I I love them to bits.
They're I've known them now forsix years which like, I think
that we've seen each other growa lot.
And I think that I just wantedto share these amazing people
with the rest of the world.
It felt unfair that I got all ofthem to myself.
(21:15):
And so I have, this is inspiredparticularly by three or four of
my students who I haven't taughtin years at this point.
They're just younger friends.
Jason Blitman (21:23):
Sure.
Sam Wachman (21:24):
and also by my friend and her son who I met at
the Berlin Central Station.
And.
I asked them where they weregoing and they said, Cambridge,
Massachusetts.
And I said surprise.
And and we ended up very closefriends and her son also very
much inspired Yuri as acharacter.
And so yeah, shout out to Maxim.
(21:46):
So it was a cathartic exerciseas well for me to convey my
students' experiences'cause.
They were texting me, calling mepretty constantly, and I was,
meeting, meeting up with themand their families a lot.
And I didn't really know whereto put all of this.
I would hear the most traumaticshit from them.
And then you go, oh, you are 12.
(22:08):
And I don't know what to do withthat.
'cause that's, it's actuallyworse that you said that'cause
you're 12 and I want to cry now,but I don't know where to, what
to do with that.
I don't want to cry in front ofyou.
So I'm gonna, I'm gonna justwrite this down somewhere and
we're gonna save that for later.
And at the same time, I wantedthe world to know what.
How they were dealing with itand like their resilience and
(22:30):
what they had been through andhow they had, how they were
still continuing to be thesewonderful versions of
themselves, despite everything.
And so one year into the war,like on the, literally on the
anniversary, the one yearanniversary of the war, I was
working at.
A volunteering at a camp inRomania, which was like a
(22:52):
respite camp for Ukrainian kids.
And by some miracle, all four ofthe students who like directly
inspired this.
This book all came to that campfrom like all over Europe which
was a logistical nightmare andsomehow worked out and I'm so
grateful.
And we were all sitting aroundway past.
(23:12):
All of our bedtimes having liketea and cookies and I was mostly
listening and they were likeexchanging stories'cause they
hadn't seen each other in a yeareither.
They were, one of them was inUkraine, one of'em was in
Moldova.
And and I said something like,you guys need to write a book.
And one of us said, you do it.
We're busy.
And so I took that as a blessingto move forward with this.
(23:36):
And I reopened my Google Doc,which had been collecting dust
and fermenting, and I was like,yeah, I, if I really do wanna
write this book, I have to takea hard left turn here and I have
to incorporate the war somehow.
But I still wanted toincorporate Ukraine in its most
peaceful form or the peacefulform in which I knew it.
'cause I wanted the, I wantedalso to convey, I think that.
(23:59):
Like probably if you GoogleUkraine at this point, you go to
Google Images, it's just gonnabe photos of like smoldering
ruins of cities a lot.
And I think that the, to me,that's part of the tragedy is
that the nation was not knownvery well to American
readerships, to Americans ingeneral.
And I went there and I, I foundlike really.
(24:21):
Truly beautiful place.
And I think that now that it'sjust known for war, I think
that's just like a very unfair,I don't wanna say unfair
representation, but I wanted toalso show the version of Ukraine
that I knew so that peoplecould, could fathom, begin to
fathom what had been lost andthat would maybe also make
(24:45):
people care about, about gettingit back.
Jason Blitman (24:49):
And.
And about what these people ingeneral, but what these two
young people are losing.
Sam Wachman (24:57):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Jason Blitman (24:59):
At the heart of it, for me, it is this story of
these brothers.
Sam Wachman (25:04):
Yeah, I think so too.
Jason Blitman (25:06):
Are you a sibling?
Sam Wachman (25:07):
Weirdly, I'm not,
Jason Blitman (25:09):
Really?
You are an only child.
Sam Wachman (25:10):
am an only child.
Jason Blitman (25:12):
Fascinating.
Sam Wachman (25:13):
Maybe that's why I was able to write such a like
loving sibling relationship is'cause I actually don't have any
annoying siblings to,
Jason Blitman (25:18):
No sibling trauma?
Sam Wachman (25:20):
yeah.
Jason Blitman (25:22):
I am the oldest of three and uh, yeah, at the
end of the day, for me it wasvery much about their
relationship.
It.
This is gonna sound crazy toyou, to my listeners, to anyone
who maybe has read the book orwill read the book.
However, I'm gonna stand myground and hold to this thought.
Sam Wachman (25:44):
Go for it.
Jason Blitman (25:45):
It is giving some version of a modern sound of
music.
Sam Wachman (25:54):
I need to process that for a moment.
Can you like okay.
I, hold on.
I'm still working on that one.
Can you help me get like halfwaythere?
Jason Blitman (26:04):
So there is joy and love and happiness in a time
of like great despair.
Sam Wachman (26:13):
Yeah.
Okay.
Jason Blitman (26:14):
And at the end of Sound of Music, do you, are you
familiar?
Sam Wachman (26:19):
Yeah, I watched it when I was like 10 and that's
the last,
Jason Blitman (26:23):
Okay.
The family escapes over themountains, over the Alps to
escape the Nazis.
So they like sing.
They sing Re Me, but then theyalso are in this war torn space.
Sam Wachman (26:39):
Okay.
I, yeah, that does make sense.
I see the para.
Yeah.
Thank
Jason Blitman (26:42):
You see how I got there?
Sam Wachman (26:43):
my memory there.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (26:44):
Okay.
But I, but there is this sortof, there's just this element
of, joy within, uh, a veryhorrific.
Experience to someone who mightsay, war, death bombs kids, I
(27:04):
don't wanna read that.
What would you, is there, whatwould you say to them?
Sam Wachman (27:09):
I do think that the book is about much more than
that.
Jason Blitman (27:11):
I fully agree with you, but if that's what
someone is
Sam Wachman (27:14):
would I say to them?
I do think it's a joyful book,even if it's also marred by
tragedy.
I think that oh gosh.
I don't, honestly, I think thatif you don't wanna read a book
about like war and kids andstuff they probably
Jason Blitman (27:26):
Yeah, no, it's not the right book
Sam Wachman (27:28):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (27:29):
but I guess the point is that it is so much more
than that.
It is not just a book about war.
Sam Wachman (27:35):
And I appreciate that came across because I think
that, one of the ways thatUkrainians have been dealing
with with everything that'shappened is through dark humor
and also just finding joy insmall moments and the.
Obviously it's very difficult tofind good things that have come
from the war.
(27:56):
I will say that the sense ofcommunity and the way that
communities have been galvanizedto help one another and to get
to know their neighbors and theneighbors needs and to really be
there for each other issomething that I find really
admirable.
And I think that finding,salvaging some.
(28:18):
Something good from the wreckageis something that I wanted to
also convey in the book.
And also portraying theresilience of people and of kids
who do experience war and who dowitness war crimes.
And it seems like it's somethingthat you can't come back from.
And it's true that it's like youthe direction of your life is
probably going to changeirreparably, but.
(28:40):
You continue living and you kidsare incredibly resilient and
people are incredibly resilient.
And and I have seen kids, I'veseen my kids really end up, they
get dug up in the most violentway possible and it seems like
they just left their roots inthe soil and they're not gonna
(29:01):
make it.
And then they're planted in newsoil and they just continue to
grow.
Jason Blitman (29:05):
I love that.
This has been I've talked moredetails about a book than I
typically do.
Mostly because it's this bookclub pick and I want people to
learn more about it and getexcited to read it.
And yeah, I am, I don't wannagive anything from the book away
obviously, but, so I'm excitedfor folks to.
Hear what you've just said andthen experience it and maybe get
(29:30):
some more insight and glimmersinto this really beautiful
story.
Sam Wachman (29:35):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate you pickingthis and spotlighting it and
then chatting with me.
I think that you've, yeah, youhave made this a truly non-car
experience.
This is my, one of my firsttimes speaking about the book
out loud to someone.
And I think that writers don'tusually become writers'cause
they're good at talking topeople.
So thank you for making this sounintimidating.
Jason Blitman (29:55):
I cannot wait for everyone to read the Sunflower
Boys.
A, it is out now wherever booksare sold.
But b, you really should jointhe Gays Reading Book Club with
Altoa.
The link is in the show notesand the bio, all the things.
Check it out.
Join the club.
Be a part of the conversation.
Read it as a group.
I can't wait for everyone toread it.
Sam Wachman (30:16):
Thank you so much, Jason.
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