Catherine Newman (Wreck) feat. Rachel Runya Katz, Guest Gay Reader

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Gaze reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what, andwhy.
Anyone can listen.
Comes we're spoiler free Readingfrom politic stars to book club
picks where the curious mindscan get their picks.
So you say you're not gay.

(00:24):
Well that's okay.
There's something for everyone.
Gays rating.
Hello and welcome to GaysReading.
I'm your host, Jason Blitman,and on today's episode I have my
first returning main guest onGays Reading, and that is the

(00:45):
delightful Catherine Newman, whotalks to me about her new book
Wreck, which is of course theFollow Up to Sandwich, which was
one of my favorite books lastyear.
is so funny and so delightful,and I love her so much, and I.
Feel like this is the exact samething that happened last time
she was on the show where I justfelt like I couldn't edit much

(01:07):
at all.
So you're getting pretty much araw version of what our
conversation was, which is superfun.
And my guest gay reader today isRachel Ranya Katz, whose book
isn't it Obvious is also out.
Now both of their bios can befound in the show notes and both

(01:28):
rec and isn't it obvious?
Uh, are on sale, if you're newto GA's reading, welcome.
And of course, if you're comingback, welcome back.
Always a pleasure.
And I hate to beg, but We're soclose to a hundred ratings on
Apple Podcasts, so it would beso exciting if by the end of the
year we could hit 105 starratings.

(01:51):
So if you have it in you to headon over to Apple Podcasts and.
Click the subscribe, but alsofive star buttons that would
mean so much to this littleindie podcast and hope to get
other ears listening to gazereading as well.
Um, we are on social media atGaze Reading over on Instagram

(02:15):
And the show notes and the linktree on Instagram are filled
with a ton of other information.
We have merch, there's asubstack.
You could watch these episodeson YouTube.
Uh, there's, you know, always alot going on.
There's of course the book clubthrough Stora, and I just
announced the other day a newbook festival that I'm producing
in Palm Springs, the PalmSprings Book Fest, and I am so

(02:37):
excited for that.
That's happening the end ofMarch, March 27th through the
29th.
The initial lineup is soexciting.
We have folks like ClaireLombardo and Chris Whitaker and
3D Umer Gar, and Show Barrao andJonathan Capehart, and it's
gonna be so, so, so great.
So if you happen to findyourselves in Palm Springs at

(02:58):
the end of March or have beenlooking for a reason to get away
to Palm Springs, the end ofMarch is a great time.
You could find out moreinformation about
that@psbookfest.org.
And you know, there's a, and youcould find that over on
Instagram as well.
So there's just like a lothappening and I'm so excited.
And as always, I'm supergrateful to have you listeners

(03:18):
along this journey.
So enough for me.
Without further ado, pleaseenjoy the fantastic authors
Catherine Neuman and RachelRania Katz.

Jason Blitman (03:31):
Because all of this, this initial greeting each
other is, is good content

Catherine Newman (03:36):
gold.
The part where I'm like, I can'tclick on the video

I'm wiping my brow.
Um, it's my brow.
It's,

You are so like Elizabethan.

I am, I'm very, I'm dainty.
And then.

Yeah.
You need like a lace, trimmed,hanky.

Yes.
Instead it's a Kleenex from a

understand.
That's right.
People like us, we keep Kleenexin business.

We do, uh, seriously.
Um.

I know, I know.
I have them all over the houseand, and every now and then I
look, and you can cut this outof the recording, but every now
and then I look and I feel likethere's like a box of Kleenex
and like a.
And like a big bottle of likebody lotion and I feel like, oh,
does it look like someone's likejerking off station?

(04:30):
And should I just make sure thatI like separate those two
things,

Franklin and my individual nightstands because
we live in the desert, our handsare dry.

And runny noses.
Same.
I mean, I don't live in thedesert, but like my skin is very
dry.
But I look at it and I'm like,do like, do the people who come
feed the cats, are they like,oh,

What 17-year-old boy lives here,

Yeah.
Yes.
And jerks off like in every roomin the house.

Um, you'll be thrilled to know that my, um,
reactive airway disease is aliveand kicking today.

Uh, no.

this is very on-brand for you and the book.
I was diagnosed with asthma as ateenager

Yeah,

later in life.
Someone a pulmonologist waslike, oh, you don't have asthma,
you have reactive airway disease'cause you don't like regularly
need to maintain the asthma.
This is a thing that istriggered by outside forces.
So of course it's not asthma'cause that's too regular.

Asthma's so regular.
This is something reallyspecial.

In fact, I would say it's rad re

it's very rad.

reactive Airway

And are you part of like a Facebook group
that's like rad?
We're rad.

Rad,

Living with Rad.

um, or Living Rad.

Living Rad.
Oh my God.

Um.

I turned out to have something called, this
is really, really, again, feelfree to, you know, just edit
this right out.
But I

This episode is gonna be two hours fully online.

my many ailments, as you know, I have
many ailments, most of themquite peculiar.
Uh, I have something called noburping syndrome.
I thought that I was just like aperson who didn't burp.
Like, I never burp.
I can't burp.
Like people who can like drink acoke and burp the alphabet.

(06:43):
I've been like, why can't I dothat?
I would love to be able to dothat.
I don't burp at all.
Like, I need to

In your whole life, you've never burped.

I've burped like four times and, and by the
way.
Like I burped not that long ago,and I was like, oh my God, I
burped and, and only Michael

Put it,

Yeah, yeah.
Call the, call the press.
Um,

add it to my file.

needless to say, there is a Reddit
community, a vibrant Redditcommunity

Burber community.

A no burps community.
You, until you are diagnosedwith these ailments, you don't
realize that you're missing outon some of the great communities
in the world.

I knew because I know you, that we were gonna
have the best tangents today.
I couldn't have dreamed, Icouldn't have dreamed that we
would've started with no burps.

No Burber.

is like, I'm done for the year.
This, I don't even need to doanything

Now you're gonna go on the Reddit thread
and you're gonna be like, is oneof these people, Kathryn, maybe,
Maybe she's in here describingher experience as a non

I will know because your handle is wrecky
sandwich.
Um, so stupid.
You are the first ever repeatmain guest on gay's reading.

Really, I'm so honored.

other people back in like different capacities.
But you just wrote the fastest?
I think

so thrilled.
I am thrilled to be back.
I have literally never spokenpublicly about no burping
syndrome.
So

This is a gays reading exclusive.

is, is this branded?

Oh my God.
My rad.

No,

God.
I

I'm okay.

is, I like, we have to be so serious.

So

Otherwise I'm gonna have to edit out all my
ratting.

oh, you're

Geez.

r Jeez.

how you doing this morning?
Or I guess it's now, it's, uh,it's noonish for you.

It is noonish.
I am good.
Um, if you hear the cats,they're com, first they were
complaining that I hadn't fedthem, and now they're just as
chatty, but they're talkingabout how good their lunch was.
And they need to mill aroundlike reminiscing aloud about how

(09:35):
great it was.
So if you hear them, they'rejust, that's how they are.

perf.
I'm ob

They're like, oh my God, we got cat food.
It was so great.

was it a little, a little moist?

It was a little moist.
We loved it.
We were hungry and then we gotto food and now we're so happy.

Amazing.
That's okay.
They could mill about as much asthey want.
Um, last time you were on gay'sreading, I wasn't doing a video
component.
So now there's a video componentand people could see your
gallery wall.
That was a hot topic of yourfirst visit.

(10:13):
We talked a lot about yourgallery wall, which is still
fabulous, and Perry.

thank you.
Oh, also you can see the weirdoutdoor broom.
I was in the process of fixingwith

Oh, I literally wouldn't have seen it unless
you, you, thank you for callingit out.
It was the other way.

no, I can't.
Oh my God.
What is my problem?
Oh no, it's gonna get worse overthere.
Uh, we're in a very, a verynarrow band of the part of my
house.
I'm comfortable showing.

Um, I also re-listened to our episode this
morning, which I know you'venever listened to'cause you hate
the sound of your own voice.

it is true.

Um, but I was drinking outta the same mug
'cause I said I'm drinking outof a, a Captain Hook mug and I
am.

And, And, there it

And there it is.
Anyway, that's all.

And since our first episode, I have been to
the place where you live.

yes, that's

And so now I just have a different feeling
like I was in that movie settown you live in, unbelievably.
Picturesque.
Gorgeous.
It was amazing.
I came out of the airport, I wason the phone with Jason.
Jason was picking me up and hesaid, what can you see?

(11:29):
And I said, oh my God, I can seea mountain.
And he was like, not helpful.
You remember that?
You were like, that's not reallygonna narrow down

one of the tiniest airports in the world,

Uh, yes.
It was a, but nonetheless, I hada

still hard.
Right, exactly.
Um, you know, my favorite storyfrom that experience was you
sang goodnight to all thewriters the first night of the
festival going up to your roomand 20 minutes later coming back
'cause you had fomo.

Did I come back in like a Victorian night
gown?

Yes.

I'm sure I did.

Yes.

I know I loved it so much.
I had the best time and.
I was a little nervous because Iwasn't drinking, and I, you, I
am like newly, still fairlynewly, a non-drinker.
And um, and I was like, oh,everyone's gonna be drinking and
I'm gonna just feel so weird.
And, but then it turned out likea ton of people aren't, weren't

(12:32):
drinking and it was so fun.
And so I like shyly wentupstairs and then I just
couldn't stand to miss anything.

No, that was, that was amazing.
Oh my God.
Um, well it has been a time we,and now we have, we're back in
the world of Rocky and herpeople, and I was so happy.
To see them again in myimagination.
And by them, I mean you and your

Uh, yeah, I know.
Let's just cut Ray to it.

Um, I was shocked, and I don't, don't take
this the wrong way, but I wasshocked that it made me laugh as
much as Sandwich did and

Oh

feel as much as Sandwich did.

I am so glad.

Yeah, it wasn't a cash grab as far as I was
concerned.

Oh, I,

You weren't like, I'm gonna write a sequel to get
that, get that dough.

Oh, no, I just had more to say as is the way of
Raiders, I suppose.
Yeah.
A little more to say.

if Sandwich was reproductive mayhem on Beach
Reed bread, what is rec?

Do you have an answer to that?

God dammit.
No.

I, I mean, I feel like.
I think of rec, I don't have aquippy thing, but I do think of
rec as, um, I mean it is likediagnostic mayhem, but I think
of it as like really a book inevery way about, um, living with
uncertainty,

Hmm.

living just like the human condition of not
knowing what happens next.
Um.
Or what things mean or, orliving with something that you
can't make an either or decisionabout, you know, and that, and
so the book is Rocky dealingwith a bunch of different

(14:31):
situations that she just has tolike hold, even though that is
not in her nature.
Her nature is to solve problems,decide something's good or bad,
and move on it accordingly.
And in every way.
This book.
Um, in this book, she's beingconfronted with stuff where she
can't do it.

Mm-hmm.

Um,

to come up with something quippy in my

oh, I feel it coming.

think what I got

Yeah, I have a pen.
I'm writing it down.

is grief of plenty.

Grief of plenty,

How is that?

like horn of plenty, but.
Grief of

Well, no,'cause like, there is a, there's a
section in your book where the,the word plenty comes up around
Thanksgiving, and that couldhave been another title.

plenty.

There is this abundance of what Rocky has in
her life.
Um, and yet it's also aboutgrief.
It's, you know, in so many ways.

Yes.
I love that.
I mean, plenty.
God, that's so good.

Yeah.
I would say plenty of grief, butlike that doesn't, that wasn't
right.

yeah, no, I know, right?
That gives a different flavor.
Yeah, I like that.
I mean, I really, it's sointeresting.
I didn't realize it was a bookthat's as much about grief as it
turns out it

Hmm

Um, like somebody wrote me an email who
read an early copy and said thatshe feels like the entire book
is, is Rocky grieving hermother.
And that just was such a trip tome.
It just does food for thought,you know, whether or not, I
think that's what the book isabout.

(16:25):
Like somebody thought that'swhat the book is about, and I
just was like, wow, I reallyhave to think about

Hmm.

I don't know what I think

Well, there's also just like the grief of your
youth, or the grief ofexpectations of what you think
your life is going to be, justlike the grief of getting older,
you know?

yeah.
There's that.
There's obviously the.
You know, her identificationwith the grief of a grieving
parent, um, which is a lot,obviously what that book is
about or that, that her weirdkind of preemptive grief all the
time about like, who else is shegonna lose and is she gonna

(17:04):
survive that?
Um, which I identify with verystrongly.

It's like perpetually bracing yourself.
Like

Yeah.

yeah.

Yeah, just, but also try not to miss
everything'cause you're sobraced for the possibility.
You know, I, I feel likehopefully he's not gonna figure
out how to listen to this.
'cause mostly he doesn't findstuff that's not just like a
photo or a review in the times.
But my dad,

Mm-hmm.

dad, if you did figure out how to listen to
this, but you won't.
He's 93 and like he is going todie eventually.
He's.
Very healthy and I just need tolike hold that fact loosely and

(17:54):
enjoy the fuck out of him.

Yeah.

And it's really a heavy lift, you know,
just like.
Putting something sort of to theside where you still see it in
your peripheral vision all thetime, and just being in the, in
the here and now,

Um, I two important facts from yesterday.
Um, I quoted you in therapyyesterday, and I also cried for
the first time.
In the years that I've beengoing to therapy, I cried for
the first time.
Yeah.
Because I was talking about mygrandpa, who I loved so much,

(18:35):
and I think having just finishedthe book and then like talking,
you know, reading about thegrandfather character in the
book and just like the journeyhe was on and, um, sort of
falling in love with him.
And so what I, what I will tellyou, I'll tell you what I quoted
you, um, about, but we were justtalking about life in general
and, um.

(18:57):
Sort of, uh, the, the navigatingthe abundance of both highs and
lows.
And I don't, this isn't givinganything away for the book, but
it, it does happen to be abeautiful moment that comes
later.
Um, I know most of my listenerslisten to read the book first

(19:20):
anyway, but, um, the questioncomes up of.
How will I have wanted to spendthis time?

Yeah.

And that was so profound to me and just like
such a great reminder of like,okay, when I look back, what
will I remember?
What won't I remember and how doI really want to spend my time?
So that's exactly what you'resaying, you know, you know that
your father is eventually gonnadie because we all do.
Do you wanna spend your timeworrying about it or enjoying

(19:52):
your time with him?
And, and it's, it's a lot tohold.

isn't it?
I know, I, it's really true.
I mean, I.
I think about that with griefand I think about that with
anxiety also, where, um, the waysomeone made a case to me at
some point for taking ananti-anxiety medication, which
I.
Do take and would do freecommercials for.

Me too.
Can we?
Let's go commercial.
IW

freaking love it so much.
Like it, I will take it forever.
I'm not one of the, I'm not, Ihave no interest in like, not
being on it, and I have plentyof anxiety.
It's not, believe me, it's notlike it, you

Yeah.
I have an abundance if someonewants

but I

I have plenty.
I have

over.
Right.
But when somebody said to me,um.
What, what else could you dowith this time that anxiety is
taking up?

Hmm.

And I was like, wow, I could do a lot with
that time.
Like just that.
And so it's a similar kind ofquestion of like, you know, how
much more could you enjoy yourlife?
If you could just.
Like, hold the grief, but just alittle to the side.

Yeah.

I don't know.
I'm work, working on it.
I mean, but it's like an activepractice.
I guess that's what practicesare, is like, you don't finish.
It's not like you get it sorted,it's done.
Like I just recenter all thetime in the here and now because
otherwise I'm gonna be, youknow, sobbing, graveside in my
brain.

(21:36):
'cause that's where I go.
Ah.

Yeah, and, and I, I have justified laziness as
rest.
In terms of how I wanna spend mytime or how will I have wanted
to spend my time

Huh?

and I'm like, oh no.
I need to really make sure thatI am resting when I'm resting
and that I

Active, resting, active things that
aren't

Yeah.
Or active laziness.
Right?
Like, like I can Sure.
Let me actively procrastinate,you know?

I see what you mean.
I know those things where likereminding yourself to make a
decision about how you spendyour time versus just letting it
sort

Pass.
Right, right.
I if i'll, it sure.
I will be lazy, but I'm gonnacommit to being lazy.

Rather than half-assed, like responding to
emails for hours on a Sundaywhen I could be doing something
fun or fully being a sloth.

Sure.
And, and if you fully commit tobeing this slot, then, then
maybe you'll have more time andmore energy

I, I,

to be pr, you know, whatever.

feel completely that way.

Um, something that comes up in the book that
was maybe the biggest revelationof my life is that shoots and
ladders really prepares you forlife.

Classic Jason.
love that.

Classic Jason quoting me back to myself and me
thinking I'm so.

That is so funny.
I know.
It's so funny.
I think shoots and laddersrepairs you for so many things,
the ups and downs of life, andalso the shame of it.
'cause in my edition of it, oneof the, one of the shoots is
this.

(23:47):
Like, obviously greedy littlekid eating a bucket of unripe
apples, and then like, you know,she has the runs or whatever.
They don't show you that at thebottom, but like,

But we

know.
that's the implication.
And I just like that game whereyou're like, uh, you're bad.
Like you're bad and you'll,you'll pay.

high highs and the low lows.

Yeah.
And, and what did you do to getthere?
What stupid ass thing could youhave done differently

did you have that revelation that you were like,
oh my God, this

and

life?
Yeah.

I, there are things I write down over the
years that like occur to me andI just keep them in case they're
useful.
And that image of the littlegirl with the bucket of green

Oh my God.

it has loomed as this like.
Punitive image like throughoutmy life.
It's one of those guidingprinciples of like, you don't
wanna be that you are gonna beon the shitter all night.
'cause you were a greedy littlebitch.

And with those jeans.

Oh.

It for you.
It doesn't need to be a bucketof apples.
It could be, you know, a thimbleof whole milk.

Oh my God.
Right?
I'm gonna be on the shitteranyway.
It's so true.
Greedy little bitch.
With your thimble of whole milk,you put it in your iced coffee
like a whore.

Oh my God.
Um, have you found anything goodon buy Nothing

Oh my God.

here?
I'm asking you genuinequestions.

no, you're such a liar.
That is so not a genuinequestion.
That is a question.
It's completely designed to makeme laugh.
Um,

I feel seen, I feel so seen.

so if you haven't read rec, um.
Rocky spends a lot of time onbuy Nothing.
Mostly just to make herselflaugh and, and, um, she and her
kids text each other photos ofthings from buy Nothing, which
is of course what we do in myfamily, where we're like, you
need this, and it'll just belike literally

half a watermelon?

water around.
Those are all real things.
Um, there was somebody givingaway a massive Ziploc.
That had two frozen chickencarcasses in it and there's a
photo and they've been frozen inthat bag.
So in the photo it's just thisgross Ziploc and all you see is

(26:33):
like ice crystals.
And then there's like a thingthat's like make stock, you
know, like our loss, your gain,whatever.
Like crazy shit people say towhere you're like, maybe I need

What about

But a lot of people, a lot of people wanted
it.
There's a lot of food and itmakes you realize that people
are even thriftier than I am,which is crazy to imagine.
Um, and that there really isthis like community that's
really committed to an absenceof waste.

(27:07):
But sometimes, oh my God, itmakes me laugh so hard.
I mean, buy nothing is onething.
And also Facebook marketplace.
This guy was selling lastwinter, a colored pencil drawing
of elf, of like elf from themovie Elf, like the Will Ferrell
character, a colored pencildrawing, but he'd started it.

(27:31):
You know, when you're not anartist, so you started in the
wrong part of the page, so itlike dazzles off like, like the
bottom of The

doesn't quite fit.

too soon.
And, and he was selling it for$15 and I was like, I am buying
that and giving it to Ben forChristmas.
Ben's my son.
And so I reached out to him andhe was like, ah, sorry, no, I'm
not gonna put it in the mail,but you could come get it.
And he lived like an hour and 40minutes from me and I was like,
I'm not committed to the bit.

(27:59):
I can't commit to that bit.
It is too heavy a lift, but Ileft it.
I was like, oh, excuse me, Mr.
Particular with your elf drawingfor$15.
Like, can't put in the mail.
It can't be put in the mail,

I have posted things for free on Facebook
Marketplace.

have you rude The day

I, I did it one time and I,

all day waiting for people to come and

well, not only that, but the amount of people
that reach out to you.
I got hundreds and I'm notkidding, hundreds of messages.
So anytime I've ever done itsince I like at least put$10 or
whatever,

but.
even with that, you will spendyour life waiting for people to
come and they don't come, andthey don't tell you they're not
coming.
I stopped posting on Facebook onthe, um, free giveaway site
because it was making me like.
Filled with hatred of human

Yeah, and you have

where I was like, I was like, I a, is this
turning a nightmare?

please come pick it up.
fact, I had this one girl comeand, and get something, I think
it was a bed or a mattress, andI was like, I have so many other
things that people are, arebeing wishy-washy about or not
coming.
I was

Yeah.
do you want them?

what they are?
She was like, kind of, I'mfurnishing a place.
And I was like, come in, pleasetake this step.
And I was, I gave her a chair.
I gave her a

oh my God.
you must have been so happy.
She

I

have been psyched.

she didn't pay for it.
I was just like, take it,

Yes, I, oh, I know.
I understand how you would put alittle, also, if you give it
away, then there's a wholesubset of people who won't even
look at it.
So if you charge$5 for it.
It's like giving it away.
But then this group that islike, I'm not the kind of person
who gets a free thing will belike, but I will pay

right.

for a marble like armoire.

for a very fancy, very not used mattress.

Yeah.
I, I love, I really love lookingat it.
And now, because I wrote aboutit, somebody sent me a link,
there's an Instagram, um.
That's like best of,

Uh, yeah,

is so bizarre

like Zillow gone wild.
Are you?

writing down Zillow Gone Wild, which I have
never looked

Oh my God, Kathryn.

I love stuff like this.
I, this just makes me love theinternet.
I just love the internet for it.
I, I am so easily entertainedand that kind of thing.
Zillow gone wild of like.
People posting, like, I mean,I've seen excerpts, I'm sure
from that, but someone will sendme something that's like, look
at every slide in this, of thishouse for sale.

(30:52):
And then suddenly there'll bejust like a guy like naked in a
Barbie themed bedroom and you'relike, oh my God,

The internet.
What a place

what a

can't live with.
It can't live

can.
I know.
And obviously, I mean, Iappreciate you invoking that
because.
A lot of Rockies Trouble is theinternet.

Before we get to that.

okay.
No?
Yes.

something about thrifting and how no one loves
thrifting more than you, orpeople you know, you see that
people love thrifting, thriftingmore than you by looking at
Facebook marketplace.
There's something that comes upin the book about, um, how
charming it is as a parent tosee what your kids like hold
onto in adulthood.
You know, things like gettingthe fancy organic olive oil that

(31:40):
they had when they were growingup, or thrifting, or the nice
sheets or, you know, whateverthat is.
Are there things like that foryou that you remember that like
your parents did, that you'relike, oh, that has held on in my
whole life.

totally.
I, I mean.
Yes.
And also just to be clear, likehowever, um, overbearing Rocky
is where she's like, I'm sorryyou eat lamb.
Like we don't eat lamb as afamily.
My parents have been judgmental.
There is nothing too small.

(32:14):
I do different from them tojudge.
They will be like, what the fuckkind of orange juice is this?
We get pic, like, what is that?
And I'm like, I.
I.
got it at the Whole Foods like,I don't know, it's, and they're
like gravely disappointed.
You know, I have strayed fromthe family culture.

(32:34):
We are a Tropicana family.
Every brand of every singlething, unless you can convert
them

Ah,

and some things you can where like, I was
like, I know we like, you know,the whatever Land O'Lakes
butter, but now I'm using likeKate's.
You know, from Vermont, and nowthey use that.
So those are your choices.
Be judged to death or they'relike, huh?
I tried to get my parents toswitch to the kindest sponge

(33:06):
that has a scrubby thing on theback.
A bridge too far

Those are so helpful.

no, can't, no.
And they don't like to see it inmy house.
What is that?

it's offensive to the family culture.

the, family culture, we use a soft sponge.

love that.
The family culture.

And you know it when you see it, right?
But you don't know it whenyou're growing up because.
It's invisible to you becauseit's, you think that's
everybody.
It's like when you first sleepover at someone's house and
you're like, wait, what?
Every minute you're like, what?
Wait, what?
You do this, you do that.
You use this kind of toothspace, this, that, your house
smells like this.
Your dad does that.
Like your mom comes out in abathrobe.

(33:47):
Like what?
That mind blown of like otherpeople's otherness and it is so
hard to take.
Like as a kid, it's reallyexciting.
And then.
feel like there's somethingabout young adulthood.
My kids are just in this momentof the, the, the small flex and

(34:09):
it just looks like that, likethe lamp thing was verbatim from
our lives of just our son cominghome and being like, Hey, guess
what?
I know you're gonna take thishard, but I kind of like lamb.
And I was like, no, son of mine,you know, their father like left
the room.
I mean, it was so hilarious.
Like we were like, Oh okay.
And instead really what I feellike is like, oh my God, how

(34:33):
have I created a scenario wheresomeone needs to come out with
a, to us as like a person whoeats lamb?
You could tell he'd likerehearsed it

oh my God.
Well, next time you're in town,there's a place that happens to
make a very good lamb.
And I'm not a big lamb person,but it's very good.

You think it would convert

I don't know about Convert, but you would
enjoy that meal.

Really?

so.

All right.
All for that.
I'll come back.
No.

just for that, just for the lamb, that scene
reminded me of something thathappened literally just a couple
weeks ago with Franklin, myhusband and his mom, because he
recently became a vegetarianthis past Thanksgiving, became a
vegetarian, and it was talkingabout it with his mom, and she
literally did that big VE Greekwedding thing where she said,

(35:20):
even chicken.

Oh my God.
No chicken.
Chicken is just no.

we were all like, yes.
And why did you just quote,basically quote, big factory
Greek wedding?
Like literally Frank's stepdadsaid, oh, I'll make lamb.
It's like, yeah, that's exactlywhat just happened.
That was so weird.
Even chicken.

Even chicken.
Yes.
Even

Randy.
Even chicken.

Oh

Um, speaking of, is there a difference between
Spatchcocking and Butterflying?

Well, yeah.

Really?

Yeah.
Oh, maybe.
No, I was gonna say thatbutterflying is the thing you do
to lamb

Oh.

where you like a leg of lamb, you butterfly it,
but it's really similar whereyou take the bone out and open
it out.

So maybe it's, maybe it's, uh,

spatchcocking maybe, and Spatchcocking.
You're not de-boning it alltogether.
You're just taking out thebackbone so you can flatten it.

Oh, oh, and butterflying.
It's, it's

it ends up boneless.

Interesting.

and opened out like a book

Yeah.
See, I had a feeling I wouldlearn something.
This is why.
I asked the question, speakingof is there a difference or
what's the difference betweenslit and slot?

I dunno, I thought about this having
written about it.
Um, both words make me a littleuncomfortable and seem very like
vagina.
Um, yes, slit and slot

so.

a slot definitely suggests you're
putting something into it.

Mm-hmm.

You wouldn't have a slot that nothing goes
into.
That's the premise of a slot.
A coin is going

I wonder is, is a slot like manmade or like a slot
is, is intentional and a slit islike you're breaking something,
right?
You're like, slitting open.
No.

I don't think so.
I think you could slit somethingfully.
On purpose, but I'm also, I knowseamstress terms, that's a
sewing term.
You would like cut a series ofslits in a piece of fabric, but
you wouldn't like then shove aquarter into one of them, like a
slot.
Something's going in there.

(37:54):
A slit is not like that.

No.
Okay.

Glad I

Thank you.

clear that up.

I cut you off when you were going, you were
about to go down an internetrabbit hole

Oh yeah.

and talking about Rocky and how the, the internet
is sort of the thing that ischallenging to her,

Yeah.
I mean, she has the thing that Ihave not coincidentally a
feeling that way that a phone inyour hand.
Can be like a black hole that itcan, I can surface from looking

(38:39):
at my phone the way you come outof a movie during the day and
you're like, oh, it's like stillthe world light out.
The world is here.
Uh, so she can be very, um.
You know, it's like obviously asource of pleasure for her.
She texts with her kids a lotand they send each other like

(39:02):
funny things.
Um, and she looks at recipesthat, you know, as people do and
then, and looks at buy nothing,whatever.
And then it's also this placeshe turns to, you know, partly
her patient portal is online.
Um, and you and I, I'm surecould talk.

(39:24):
At great length about thepatient portal I know.

and so that that, because it had such a huge
presence in the book, I did takecredit for it.

Oh, okay.
Yeah, that makes total sensethat you would you know, it's
just such a weird world.
Like I, I'm an impatient person,so I love, on the one hand like
the immediacy of a patientportal.
Like, thank God you're notwaiting for a doctor to call you
like in three weeks when hethinks to, like, it's just gonna

(39:59):
show up and you're gonna get theinformation.
It's not gonna be digested foryou.
And then obviously the flip sideof that is this weird immediacy
as a lay person to what often isincredibly technical
information.
Um, so you have this access toit, but you don't really know

(40:20):
what it means and no one issaying to you like, oh, it, you
know what?
I know it looks like X, Y, Z,but it's okay because you're
just looking at numbers and agraph, or you're looking at.
You know, something apathologist has written without
ever talking to or seeing you,and they're like, oh, I don't
know.
Looks like, you know, looks likeshe needs a lobotomy.

(40:42):
And you're like, oh my God,

Okay.

I'll, I'll

How long is the referral process?

Yeah.
So the internet, you know, forRocky, the internet is that it's
the.
There's an accident in the bookthat she becomes obsessed with,
and it's the police where shemarinates in that obsession.
It's like a guilty, it's likethis guilty, obsessive, time
consuming thing she does, whichis, um, you know, this kid has

(41:17):
died who her kids grew upknowing, not somebody close to
them, but the proximity for her.
Of like kids, young people dieis so, it's so her the thing she
can't look away from becauseshe's so superstitious.
Like she refuses to look awayfrom it, but instead of not

(41:41):
looking away from it, shebecomes completely obsessed with
it.
Um, so she looks, she trollsthrough their social media feed.
She figures out when thisfuneral is, she looks.
Constantly for signs to see howthis other mother, her parallel
life, you know, there.
But for the grace of God go, Imother, how is this person

(42:05):
processing this unfathomablegrief?
Um, and she's doing it allonline.
Uh, and I just relate reallyintensely to that kind of
obsessive behavior.

You know, you putting that in the book and
also just the amount that youtalk about anxiety is part of
why I think this book is so muchmore relatable than sandwich.
Um, there is a, I think.
The whole population goesthrough grief, um, and some

(42:38):
semblance of anxiety.
Uh, 50% of the population goesthrough menopause.
and so.
Feeling seen.
We all have those obsessiverabbit holes online, regardless
of what the circumstances are.
But I think anytime a youngperson dies, everyone wants to
either learn more about it orlearn how it happened, or

(43:00):
because there is that obsessionof, can it happen to me,

Yeah, and can I learn enough?
So that I can be like, nah, thatprobably couldn't happen to me
like that.
I think you're so right.
It's funny when you say that.
Yeah.
Just that I think that is somuch what the book's about is,
is Rocky being like, how much amI gonna lose?

(43:25):
How's it gonna happen?
Do I already know how it's gonnahappen?
Um, and I, I really feel thatlike.
Can the, you know, yeah.
Can you learn enough aboutsomething to be like, that
couldn't happen to, to us andlike usually Really?
No.
Or you're kidding yourself.

Um, and I think really just seeing it on the
page and not feeling alone in inour sort of.
Anxious rabbit holes isimportant.
It's great to remember that weare all sort of in this
together.

Oh, thanks.
I really, really appreciatethat.

No, but seriously, like you, you're
probably writing this in avacuum and it feels like, I, I,
I know you know that you're notin it alone, but it probably
feels like you are, or Rockymight feel like she's in it
alone.
And, um, anyway, it wasrefreshing for me.
Something I wanna put a pin in.
In addition to that as aconcept, the not feeling alone

(44:27):
in, in our grief and anxiety.
Um, I want to talk about along-term marriage and learning
more about each other'cause thatis something else that comes up
in the book.
But before we do that, um.
Sandwich was one of my favoritebooks of the year last year.

(44:47):
I have two copies in my house.
I have one in my office and oneon the bookcase in our dining
area.
Um, I don't know why I don'tneed two copies of the book, but
I want them.

Thank you.

I was so excited to read rec and um, I.
Didn't know what it was about.
I don't read blurbs, I don'tread anything, and I might be
the only person that you talk towho lost a young person in his
life to a train accident.

Uh, sorry.

Um, who was like a younger brother to me.
We grew up together

Jason.

he was 19 and it.
Was so cathartic for me to be afly on the wall with this family
that I love so much and laughand feel not seen, but like

(45:53):
there was a, there, there wascomradery and, and it, it's been
almost 20 years at this point,so, um.
I guess like 15 something years.
But so it's, it's thankfully Iwas able to read it and, and,
and not grieve.
Um, but it was, I imagine mostpeople who pick it up

(46:21):
statistically it's not, it's nota young person dying of cancer
or getting in a car accidentright there.
It's, it is something that issort of.
Out of the realm ofpossibilities.
Um, but that wasn't true for me,which is fascinating in its own
way.
It was a, uh, a nice reminder tome because this is how I have

(46:45):
thought about it so much.
Moving forward after that time,15 years ago, it doesn't get
worse.
That was sort of the

Uh,

A 19-year-old getting hit by a train who you
love dearly, who you're apallbearer at their funeral, who
you see their mother mourning,right?
Like that was, it's so when yousort of think about.
Other things in life, it reallyputs it in perspective.
And I think I needed thatreminder for me in my life in

(47:19):
this moment right now.
So I just wanted to share all ofthat with you.

I am.
Thank you for that.
I mean, I think not to be likecorny and gross and like
opportunistic about silverlining possibilities, but I do
think like those are theexperiences that make us.

I.

Like empathetic, compassionate
people.
Like there is something aboutexperiencing this, that full
bodied kind of grief that makesyou move through the world as a
person who doesn't say like, oh,I can't imagine how you feel.
It's like, oh yeah.

(48:01):
Oh, I can imagine it.
I have felt it.
I am imagining it right now,like the way that puts you into
a certain kind of presence withpeople.
That is, that is a gift, even ifit's a really hard one.
One,

Totally.
And I think reading about it wasa nice reminder of that.

I'm so glad

Um, so back to my pin of, of a long-term marriage.
There's this moment where, youknow, it's discussed that Rocky
and her husband have beentogether for 35 years and
there's still.
Getting to know each other.
And I think that that's such animportant thing to talk about
because when Franklin and I gotmarried, we were given a piece

(48:45):
of advice that we are going togrow and change as people and we
need to learn how to grow andchange with each other.
Um, and we've, you know, we'retogether almost 12 years now and
we're sort of realizing, oh, weare going to grow and change
like separately, but we alsoneed to like.
Get on the same page and learnhow to do this dance together

(49:07):
and take these dance classestogether.

Yes.

and I, I, I was watching Love Is Blind UK last
night of course.
And this couple that I'mobsessed with, one said to the
other, you know, I hope this iswho we are forever.
And we're always making eachother laugh.
And we're always this way and wealways look back and this is us.
And I was like, no, no, you'regonna grow and change.
You're not gonna be the same.

yeah, yeah, I know.
And I know it.
And you hang on, or you decidethat actually it's, you're
constraining each other and youdon't, you don't, hang on.
It's, it's really a lot of, ittakes so much nimbleness to stay

(49:53):
in a long relationship.
Like you, it's funny, you know,sandwich, I was just.
Somebody just said to me at anevent, I was at an event at a,
at a library on two O at 2:00 PMthis was two days ago on the
Cape Library at 2:00 PM meanseveryone is gonna be over the
age of 70.

(50:13):
And this in fact was true.
There were like 65, 70 and epiyear olds, which is gonna be a
lively situation, is all I cansay.
I look at that audience and I'mlike.
I am gonna get it.
And I usually do, and I love it.
And this woman said to me, andMichael is in the audience,
Michael's my husband.

(50:34):
This woman says to me, why isRocky such a bitch to Nick?
And Michael laughed out loud,which I fucking love him for so
much.
He is the best.
He's such a good sport.
And I was like, oh, part ofRocky's character arc.
In Sandwich.

(50:55):
It's a small character arc, likeshe learns you can buy
sandwiches.
Like that's part of it.
There are very small things thathappen.
Some secrets are revealed andone of her, one of the things
she needs to do, and obviouslyit's compressed into a week
because a novel is, see Nick asa person separate from her.

(51:21):
That is a, a.
That is a thing the book forcesher to do.
So at the beginning, Nick isthis like kind of irritating but
very useful person, right?
Both of those things are aboutwhat he is for Rocky, and she

(51:47):
has to understand that he isactually this completely.
Whole independent self from her,and that is very difficult and
that like the way that secretsare revealed at the end of that
book, that is her process ofbeing like, oh, here's this
person who has been useful to meand difficult for me, and in

(52:11):
fact is not really about me.
Like he's the separate person,not

How long have you and Michael been together?

35 years.

I I, if you had to give someone a piece of
advice, what would it be?

God.
I mean, I really feel, this isso strange.
I, because I'm not gonna say anyof the things I'm really bad at,
like, like compromising, which Ithink is very important and I'm
not great at, I think, um.

(52:50):
Spending time together, doingfun stuff, weirdly, I think is
so important.
And it's like kind of the thingthat I think drops away.
And I don't mean having sexbecause there's a lot of
pressure on couples to have sexeven during difficult times in a
life.
And that is sometimes possible,sometimes not possible.

(53:12):
And like sex is an importantpart of a relationship,
whatever, if it is.
But I just mean fun stuff.
That's like common sharedinterests where you make time to
do fun stuff together, becauseotherwise it's like you're
either running a small and dullbusiness or you're like parents

(53:37):
together if you have kids, whichis just its own thing.
I don't know where that thing,where like you would like leave
the house to like do somethingfun with friends, but like, I
just think it's really importantto do fun stuff together.
Like actually fun things, thingsthat you would be like, that
sounds fun.

(53:57):
Like, like where the kids willtext us, you know, we have a
family group chat, obviously asfamilies do.
And the kids will be like,what'd you guys do this weekend?
And, and I'll be like, oh, dadand I played tennis, and then we
blah, blah, blah.
And the kids will write.
That sounds fun.
And I think, yeah, it was reallyfun.

Dad and I played tennis and now I'm icing my
knee.

Yeah, I know, right?
I'm icing my knee.
I got like boned on the kitchenisland, whatever.
I don't cheer all of it.
Some of it's fun in a privateway, but I don't know.
Just that, I guess what wouldyou, 12 years, I mean, grow and
change is your advice, which isreally

yeah.

I'll give each other the

Well, and what's so interesting, and I think
really the adapting that adviceis, um, don't learn the dance
steps separately.
Learn, learn, take a classtogether.
You're gonna be, you're gonna dothem differently, but you'll at
least learn the same dance,

I really like that.
I mean, it's a great metaphorbecause it also lends itself to
other metaphors of like, youwon't have to look for someone
who knows the dance.

Totally.
And it's like, and listen, sure.
Sometimes you'll step onsomeone's foot and sometimes
they're gonna move the wrongway, but like at the end of the
day, it's at least the same songthat you're dancing to, you
know?
But if you're taking differentclasses to come to like, so
that, that.
Has been a really usefulmetaphor for me as we're sort
of, you know, going on moreyears, um, but also just like

(55:32):
not being afraid to change andnot being afraid to listen and
be patient and, um, yeah, Idon't know.
It's hard.
Self-reflection is hard.
in the book, Rocky is writing apitch, uh, as for a writing
project, um, for something tofind meaning in small moments.

(55:53):
Is there anything that'shappened recently that's a small
moment that you have foundmeaning in?

Oh my God.
I mean, always truly That is mymo.
I really do.

the MO in moments.

Oh my that's so good.
That's really good.

home moments.

oh, home moments.
Home moments.
I know it's better than likememo moments.
Um, I mean, truly like I.
I have this, Michael was justmaking fun of me.
We were having dinner with somepeople we don't know very well

(56:49):
last night.
And somehow, somehow we got totalking about this habit I have
where like, you know, I havelike horrible insomnia and
weirdly, sometimes it's.
A time that I really reflect onhow lucky I am because I'm
comfortable and I'm essentiallysafe in this moment.

(57:12):
And I have this person I love inbed and usually the cats are
there and, and um, and I justlike lie there and I'm like, oh
my God, I'm so lucky.
But then instead of just lyingthere feeling that I say out
loud, don't you feel so cozy andlucky, I say to a sleeping
person.

(57:34):
And he was telling these peoplethis and, and it was so
hilarious to me.
And also I was like, okay,mental note.
And he was like, yeah.
And I'm like, I totally do.
And like, let's talk about thatin the morning.
I was like, that is so fairbecause like, I think Michael

(57:55):
doesn't feel that lucky to sleepwith a person who's like chit
chatty at literally three 30 inthe morning.

But you

Don't you feel so

But you're not burping,

Never.
Boom, full circle.
We did it one

I adore you so much.
Everyone, go get your copy ofRec Out now, wherever you get
your books.
Rachel Ranya Katz, welcome toGay's Reading.

Rachel Runya Katz (58:27):
Thank you.

And my fabulous guest, gay reader today of
course I use the term gay asfluidly and flexibly as 1985.
Gay man was

I am honored to be included in the umbrella.

Yes, I, for me, it is an umbrella term, we're,
all, we're all family together.
I'm obsessed with yourbeautifully queer bookshelf
behind you.

Oh, thank you.
Yeah I did a rainbow.
If you read enough romance andthen also like the lit thick I
have is mostly more like theupmarket, like they try to be
colorful, you get to do this.

It's.
It is a testament to what areader you are.

I am a big reader.
Yes.

And this is why I love doing this series, because
I love hearing what other peopleare reading.
I've only somewhat recentlyrealized that I have adult A
DHD, and when people havebookshelves behind them.
It is on fire because I'm like,okay, I see chain gang, all
stars.
I see.
What is that?

(59:33):
A Zadie Smith.
I see.
I'm like, oh,

my gosh.
Should I try to blur it?
Is it gonna be, is it

No.
We're fine.
I just, I'm like obsessed withlooking and seeing what you
have, and I want to, ask aboutthem.
I can only guess that one ofthose oranges is homegoing.
I, I'm just, anyway, that's allI got.
Rachel, what are you reading?

I would say so the most recent things I've
read and like really lovedwithin romance that are already
out that you can read are TheView was Exhausting by McKayla
Clements and Angel Datta.
That one is, so it's written bya married couple.
The, every time I like see thata married couple co-writes

(01:00:16):
books, I'm just like, literallyhow I feel like sometimes I
wanna die when I'm writing myown book.
I'm like, would I feel like Iwanna kill you?
If it was with my partner?
Yeah, I'm like.
I don't know.
So huge props to those two.
And they've also wr written ahorror together that I'll need
to read.
I haven't yet, but I wasobsessed with it.

(01:00:37):
It was a celebrity romance witha in British Indian, actress who
has, she's made it in Hollywood.
So she like primarily I thinklives in the us but it's
following her like jet settingall around with her model.
Fake boyfriend who she has shestruck up a friendship by them
early in both of their careers,like needing to pretend to date,

(01:00:59):
to, to save their reputations.
And of course, like it turns outthey fall in love.
But it just has such awonderfully like lush setting
while also feeling incrediblycynical and everybody's an
asshole to each other atdifferent points in a way.
I just love, like I ate it up.
Like one of my good friends AvaWilder wrote how to Fake It in
Hollywood, which was like maybemy, like one of my reigning.

(01:01:20):
Queens of celebrity romance, andthis, I think, has a really
similar sensibility.
And so I really enjoyed it.
And then I also, I would say my,I think probably,

Jason Blitman (01:01:30):
I have a back, I have a follow up question.
What is it about the cynicalassholes

Rachel Runya Katz (01:01:36):
Oh.

that excites you?

I think especially if you're gonna be in
a backdrop of something like soheavily draped in like luxury
that is it's, it's, they're inSan Tr pe like they're in Paris,
like the yachts, they're divingoff the back of yachts, like
the, all of that.
I think if I wanna pretend thatall these people are like.
There's no cost to that.

(01:01:59):
I think I would not enjoyreading it.
I think I am somewhat of acynical optimist or an
optimistic cynic.
I don't know the right way toput it, but I tend to do better
when there's something I canreally bite into.
I like my character Aldente, Idon't want it to feel like it's
just like mushy goodness.
And I get why people are drawnto that, but for me, like the

(01:02:22):
happy ever after is much moresatisfying if people are like
fuck ups in different ways alongthe way.

It's so funny that you use the word like
cynical optimist, because I callmyself a realistic optimist, and
I think that I would argue thatthat's maybe the

That's probably the same thing.
Yeah.

I think as humans we're just cynical or like real
life is can be so hard that likeit just beats you up a little
bit.
Yeah.
Okay.
Thank you for, so there's, thereis that in terms of reality,
there's the juxtaposition of thesort of opulence and the
behavior and self-awareness, Itotally get that.

Yeah, I really loved it.

okay.
But now you can carry on.

Yeah.
Sorry.
The other one, similar theme.
I think that everybody was anasshole in a way.
I really liked girl Next Door byRachel Meredith.
I think it's my favorite debut Iread this year.
I read it for a blurb.
And the premise is this likemain character mc, she is like a
freelance journalist forsomething that feels like.

(01:03:28):
Vice vibes I don't know.
It's, yeah.
And they do some pop culturestuff, but they like want to
have a Gotcha.
And there's this new SIC romancethat has been a runaway
bestseller.
Everybody's obsessed with it.
And the author is like a totalrecl.
Used a pen name.
I'm so sorry.
For my cat.
She is, yeah.

(01:03:48):
She, the author like used a penname and hasn't shown her face
anywhere.
And her Mc, the main character,her best friend also is like an
editor at this place.
And he reads the book and isdude, this is written by your
next door neighbor about you.
I know who it's, I know it'sabout you.
Like the initials are all thesame and I know what happened

(01:04:09):
senior year of high school, allthis, and so Mc has to go back
to her hometown to try to figureout if she can like, get this
scoop on, on Nora, the neighborwho like totally wrote this
bestselling s romance about her.
And I loved it.
So much.
She has a complicatedrelationship with her brother.
They're like all mean to eachother'cause they're all dealing

(01:04:29):
with their own stuff in a waythat I just like really like I
also think the chutzpah of theauthor to have there be a little
bit of a meta conversation aboutthe ways in which readers can be
particularly invasive to queerauthors.
Like I'm I love that.
I love that she had that inthere.
Oh my God, I was obsessed withthat book.

Can you unpack that a little bit?

Oh

The invasiveness?

yeah, so I think I actually, at one point
in time, I'm pretty sureAlexandria Belile posted a story
that I, I'm probably gonnamisquote, I'm not gonna get the
exact wording right, but Ireally appreciated it was that
she was saying like, so shewrote written in the Stars,
which is like one of the earliertrad, pubbed, sic romance, in
the illustrated color coverarea.

(01:05:13):
Or era, excuse me.
And she said something like, sherecognizes that for some people
who are queer readers, they feelas though like their dating
pools are small.
And especially if you're in aplace that isn't very queer or
isn't very open and can likeconfuse their.
The authors as like part oftheir dating pool, like that was

(01:05:34):
like a part of how she hadexperienced it.
So there was an obsession there.
I also think that just like I, Idon't think racial Meredith got
all so deep into the nittygritty, but like my experience
of it is when you're writingfrom like a marginalized
background, I think for similarreasons to what Alexandria was
saying, it's people are lookinglike they're so desperate for

(01:05:56):
this kind of representation.
Understandably.
But then that can create likeexpectations that aren't really
possible.
If you have

of them personally.

Yes of them personally like you, you can
expect an author to be perfectin ways that no human is.
You can expect that an author islike showing all of their
opinions via their characters,which is not like, the fact that
it's in a book does not mean youbelieve it or condone it.
You also might have written thebook a long time ago, like
there's a lot of things thereand I think.
If you are like starved ofrepresentation and like you

(01:06:31):
finally get a hand on your handson my, say my debut, which is
has a black Jewish bisexualwoman and you read it and you
just don't relate to her verymuch.
Your reaction might be like,this is bad.
And I am, I have been wronged orslighted by this author for not.

(01:06:52):
Having the, this character beliterally me, if that makes
sense.
Or have my like literalexperiences and I think it's a
completely understandablefeeling, but gets misplaced onto
authors because the problem isnot that I didn't write your
experience.
I am, I'm not you.
It's a fictional character.
It's not even totally myexperience.
The problem is that thelandscape isn't like rich enough

(01:07:15):
in these marginalized voices foryou to find something that more
closely mirrors your experience.
But then as a queer author orwhatever, like intersectional
marginalizations you may bewriting from the brunt of that
gets put onto you sometimes byreaders.
And I've definitely had likeinappropriate or invasive dms.
S.

That's unfortunately not surprising,
and there's something, so it's.
It's not dissimilar from, Ithink like talk show hosts and
folks who are on TV showsbecause those faces are in your
home regularly.
There is this parasocialrelationship that the audiences

(01:07:57):
feel like they have with thosepeople versus a movie star,
right?
Where you need to leave yourhouse to go see them.
I feel like with a lot ofauthors.
In present day.
In present day.
What a weird way to say it.
Because of social media, becauseyou're like consuming the
content of these authors.
They're maybe replying to dms,you're reading their words.

(01:08:19):
Bed.
It's such an intimate experiencethat they probably feel like
they know you, like they own thestory, like it's a piece of
them, like it supported themthrough a difficult time, right?
So there is this like weirdforce level of intimacy too
that's also not real.

Yeah.
Yeah.
These I don't know y'all.
Y'all don't know me.
That's okay.
But I do think it is yeah, I dothink it just creates this sort
of tension that I think existsfor all authors and particularly
of romance.
Because I think people can feellike there's something more
intimate there.
And there's probably like layersof misogyny too, of people have
a, an assumption that likeyou've written about yourself as

(01:09:00):
opposed to like fiction.
But I do think that it, yeah, itjust heightened for like often
heightened for queer authors.
And I'm not like, I know queerauthors who've had like much
more intense experiences than Ihave.
So yeah, I, I just I felt, that,felt like it rang really true to
me in that

In that book.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I obviously have heard of thingslike this happening.
I've never heard it presented inthat way before or had a space
to chat about it a little bitmore.
So thank you for unpacking thatmore for me.
When I heard about, isn't itObvious I needed it yesterday?
So would you tell the peoplewhat your elevator pitch is?

Yeah, so I had not seen, you've got mail
when I wrote this, but peopleuse, use, you've got mail as
like a shorthand for the likehidden identity in love over
emails

A hundred percent yes.
Yes,

when we say it's, you've got mail like that,
and I love a story like that.
So that's the absolutely thevibe.
So it is that, it's between apodcast.
Yael and her producer.
And so her podcast persona isnamed Elle, and she hires this
pro producer and she gets hisprofessional resume.
And so his name is Kevin there,and they're talking there.

(01:10:12):
They fall in love in that way.
At the same time, Yael in reallife gets in an argument with
her roommate.
Charlie's one night stand whosneaks out of her window, and
his name is Ravi.
What she doesn't know is thatRavi's.
It actually his legal middlename.
And he has always gone by that.
It's explained why later.
But Kevin was on his resume andthen he doesn't know her name

(01:10:33):
because it's a pseudonym and sheis a high school librarian who
runs a queer book club and hevolunteers at that book club.
So that's why they have to keepseeing each other in person and
then online obviously because oftheir professional relationship.

Yeah.
And as always, chaos ensuesbecause that's of course what
happens.
But you're right, it is not,you've got, mail is a
placeholder for.
Tropes for a sort of story.
You've got mail in and of itselfis adapted from another movie
called The Shop Around theCorner, which is adapted from a

(01:11:09):
Turkish short story.

And there's also like Cyrano before that.

Exactly there's so

but I think it's, honestly, it's just like
easier to say, like you'vecommunicated the vibe when

Exactly.
And I and for me, my pointreally is that I love that kind
of story

Yes.
For me, my, you've got mail is aCinderella story with Hillary

yes,

Michael Murray.
That's my'cause in my headthat's what Epistolary Romance
is.
You know what I mean?

a hundred percent right.
You can literally say it's thesame

Yeah.

right?
'cause it's it's.
Similar styles and tropes howyou said you hadn't seen, you've
got mail when you startedwriting this, have you since

I have.
Yeah, I've watched it now.
I did not like it, but that'sokay.
I'm allowed to, I think it'svery charming.
And like I'm a huge, when Harrymet Sally fan so I actually
really like Nora Fran's likepoint of view.
I like her directorial eye, allof that.
I think it's just, I watched it.
This summer.
So I have like in my head, we'relike in a vibe where

(01:12:13):
billionaires are like ruiningour lives and I just couldn't
really get there with the maleprotagonist in it.
Like he just doesn't work forme.
And I thought that Meg Ryan wasdelightful.
And I wanted the world for herand he was an evil rich man

Yeah.
No

in the movie.

it's so interesting thinking about
context and how much contextmatters in art and all kinds of
art.
I had a really terrificconversation with the author of
Bianca Bos, she's also ajournalist and wrote a book
about the art world.
It's nonfiction, and she wassaying that a painting in.

(01:12:54):
An art gallery on a white wallwith nothing else around it.
You have expectations.
And because of the context, youcan have the exact same painting
in a pile at a thrift store, andyou have different sort of
expectations for that, right?
And and yet it could stilleither be worth a bajillion

(01:13:16):
dollars or$6 and it doesn'tmatter.
I don't know that we like lookat movies as time capsules
because they like literallycapture wardrobe and a vibe and
a mood.
And so it's easier to quoteunquote, forgive something like
that.
'cause you're like, oh, this isclearly in the nineties.

(01:13:36):
But you still are allowed tocontextualize it with

yeah, I

I just find it very interesting.

Yeah, it's just hard.
It's, I think it's hard to getinto like right now, and I'm
sure if I had watched it at avery different period of time,
my experience of it would'vebeen totally different.
But yeah, so

It's,

was afraid to watch it actually for that
reason.
I was worried I wouldn't like itand then I would have to lie in
interviews, but then I'm like,I'm not a very good liar, so I
just have to be like, yep, I didit like that.

find it more interesting that you didn't, and
I, it's, it.
As a person who loves the movie,to watch it now and to
understand why it doesn't workand why it's not problematic.
Like obviously it isproblematic, but like why it is
okay for me to not be cool withit today and still love it,

(01:14:25):
right?
Like there to hold both things.

I'm very against moralizing yourself
based on the media you canconsume.
Obviously there's like linespest, which if you're out here
doing like mind comp, I'm notgonna be like, that's fine.
But I think that the fact thatit has in my opinion, some not
great class politics andhonestly, gender politics by
virtue of like how much you'resupposed to forgive this man.

(01:14:48):
Like that doesn't mean likeanybody's bad for watching it,
nor does it even necessarilymean it's a bad movie.
But yeah, I'd like I just, itdoes and it work for me and
consuming it

and I think that's my point.
Like I find it actually sointeresting to talk about
because it's cool that I lovedit.
And it's also cool thatcontextually right now I'm, I
can also not like And that'sjust so it's and both.
Yeah.
And I find that reallyinteresting.
And what is,

oh, sorry.

no, go ahead.

I say I kinda feel that way about She's the
man, which is like one of myfavorite like two thousands teen
rom-coms.
Because it's like, there'sactually a bit about it in my
debut, but I think like I wasattached to it in such a
specific way.
And actually I think reading orreading it, watching it as a
kid, I think my experience of itwas like maybe queer.

(01:15:38):
There's this guy who like fallsin love with somebody who's a
girl and a guy at the same.
Like back and forth and I don'tknow, I don't think you can
realistically read it as helike, had no possible feelings
for Viola Sebastian.
'cause otherwise it's likeyou've met Viola like twice.
There's that, and there's likethis aspect of like gender
fluidity and all that.
But also it is like a verystraight and transphobic movie.

(01:16:00):
Like it is all of these things.
And like I, I think that's areally fun one to think about

Yeah.
And it's again, like a sort offurther layer, and this is so
weird that we're talking about,she's the man, I literally was
talking about it last week.
But it's an adaptation of 12thNight by

Yes.
Yeah.

So it, there's like that added complicated
layer of the history of it.
But I was in conversation withMona Awad last week who's was
talking about her next projectbeing.
A pseudo adaptation of 12thNight and someone mentioned
she's the man,

would love to read

and I know I'm I'm already intrigued.
But she's writing like a 12thnight love story which is
fascinating.
But

amazing.
I'm so excited.

but I was just, but like she's, the man came up
and she was like, oh, I shouldwatch that.
And I was like, no, you shouldnot watch that.

Yeah, after you're done, you can watch it
after you're done and then go oninterviews like this one and
have to be like, yeah, I didn'tlike that movie.
That's my advice.
This is how you be an author,actually.

so funny.
I, what I was gonna say is thatwhat is so fun about, isn't it
obvious, is it this is like sucha weird thing to say, but like
it.
Recontextualizes, my love of thetropes and concepts of you've
got male in a contemporary andqueer and exciting way, and

(01:17:29):
allowed me to fall in love witha, with the quote unquote same
story in a brand new way.
And that's really

Oh, thank you so much.
I really appreciate

cool.
Yeah.
So everybody go get your copyof, isn't It Obvious by Rachel
Ranya Katz.
Thank you for being my guest gayreader today.

Yeah, it was a pleasure.

What because everyone loves to hear author
lore.
What was, you said you, youpushed through so many books or
read through so many books as akid, that's how you ended up at
YA Romance.
What was like that first bookthat you remember reading pre
romance that you really fell inlove with?

The Phantom to Booth, I was obsessed with
that, and I would reread it likeanytime I got sick, I would
reread that for so long.
I love that book.
I actually ended up writing mycollege like admissions
application essay about it.

Th this is the second time the Phantom Tool
Booth has come up like in a fewweeks as a important and
transformative book, and I havenot read it and I need to,

Oh, you should.
It's wonderful.
It's really wonderful.

I can't wait.
Again, thank you for being here.
Congrats on the book and have agreat rest of your day.

Thank you.
You too.
Catherine, Rachel, thank you somuch for being here.
Everyone again, go get yourcopies of Rec and isn't it
Obvious out now wherever you getyour books, and I'll see you
next week.
Have a wonderful rest of yourday.
Bye.

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