Gráinne O'Hare (Thirst Trap) feat. Brian Schaefer, Guest Gay Reader

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Gaze reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what, andwhy.
Anyone can listen.
Comes we're spoiler free Readingfrom politic stars to book club
picks where the curious mindscan get their picks.
So you say you're not gay.

(00:24):
Well that's okay.
There's something for everyone.
Gays rating.
Hello and welcome to Gay'sReading.
I'm your host Jason Litman, andI am so tired after a terrific

(00:44):
weekend at the Texas BookFestival.
I was in conversation just thispast Sunday with former gays
reading guest, Asia Gable, whosebook just came out.
Last week and whose last week'sguest on case reading.
And Austin Taylor, whose booknotes on Infinity came out a few
months ago.
Um, the three of us were inconversation yesterday in the

(01:05):
basement of the Texas StateCapitol, which was weird and
amazing.
If you have never been to a bookfestival before, I highly
recommend they are so specialand really cool and a great way
to connect with authors that youlove and meet fellow bookish
people.
Uh, shout out to the little gayshop in Austin, Texas.

(01:26):
They hosted a really lovely funlittle gathering for queer
people and queer authors, andit's just so important to
support local queer businessesthese days and little indie
businesses.
So check them out.
They're over on Instagram andthey're super cool.
Everyone who works there isfantastic.
And all the authors who, whocame out to hang out with all

(01:47):
the people, it was just reallygreat.
Anyway, supporting local, queerpeople, supporting local queer
businesses, supporting authors.
Is all important and yeah,festivals are really fun.
I was at the same hotel withformer Gaze reading guests,
Alejandro Ella and AnnieHartnett and Jemima Way, and
they are all just terrific and Ilove all of their books so much.

(02:10):
So just a another shout out tothem and their books, if you
haven't read them yet they are.
Middle Spoon and the Road toTender Hearts and the original
daughter all respectively.
Um, I got to see LucasSchaeffer, who of course just
won the Kirk Prize for his bookThe Slip.
And Daria Lavelle, who is a, wasa terrific gaze reading guest

(02:32):
who's debut novel Aftertastecame out this year.
Uh, anyway, it was just, it wasreally great and super special
and yeah, that was that's thatin regards to that.
Anyway, that's why I'm so tired.
But.
Welcome to Gay's Reading.
For those of you who have neverbeen here before, and if you are
coming back, welcome back and.
What is there to share?

(02:53):
Okay.
It is the November 11th.
You have a couple more days tocheck out this month's all store
booklet pick, which is I am Youby Victoria Riddell.
You could check out the link inthe bio of the Instagram and in
the show notes to go get a copyof that book through the all
store book club.
And we will be announcing theDecember booklet pick on the

(03:16):
15th of November.
Keep an eye out for that.
And the best place of course tolearn about all these things is
on Instagram.
So we are over at Gay's readingon Instagram.
We're on YouTube.
We are all over the place forthe most part.
There's merch and there's asubstack, and.

(03:37):
Yeah, it's been really great.
You know, speaking of bookfestivals, I am so excited to be
producing one in Palm Springs atthe end of March.
So March 27th through the 29this the Palm Springs Book
Festival.
You could learn more aboutthat@psbookfest.org.
That'll be a super fun andexciting weekend as well in Palm
Springs if you're looking for alittle getaway.
Um.

(03:57):
Today I have the delightfulGrande O'Hare on the show
talking to me about her new bookThirst Trap, and my guest gay
reader today is Brian Schaefer,whose book Town and Country I
feel like has been all over theplace.
So both of their bios can befound in the show notes.
They're both delightful humansand I, I can't believe it's

(04:17):
already practically mid-NovemberThanksgiving is, is right behind
us or is Right is just ahead ofus and I can't believe it.
And this is my sort of jet lag,rambling brain going on.
And, uh, I appreciate all of youfor putting up with me.
And now please sit back, relax,and enjoy my conversations with
Grana O'Hare and Brian Schafer.

(04:38):
I.

Jason Blitman (04:39):
Grande O'Hare, welcome to Gay's Reading.
I'm so happy to have

Gráinne O'Hare (04:42):
Thank you for having me.

here to talk about your book, thirst Trap,
this cover that I'm obsessedwith.

Major.

So for the people, what is your elevator
pitch for the book?

So Thirst Trap is set in Belfast.
It's about three friends who alllive together and have been best
friends for a long time.
It's set a year after the deathof their fourth friend and
fourth housemate Lydia.
And a year on, they're allstruggling in different ways to
process their loss and grow up.

(05:16):
They're all either just aboutturning or about to turn.
30 at the start of the novel.
So yeah, it's about growing up,dealing with grief, dealing with
life, not very well often.

I, it's, it was like distressing reading the
book simply because I was like,oh, this isn't about 23 year
olds, it's about, 30 year olds.
And that's the stuff I was goingthrough both when I was 23 and
when I was about to turn 30.

Yeah, I think I get that as well.
Like people say, oh, it's greatto see like a coming of age
novel that's happening when thecharacters are at this age, and
I am.
And people, when people tell methey related to it, I'm like.
Oh, that's lovely to hear.
Slash I'm sorry because I knowwhat that's so yeah.

Yeah, and you, we learn so much about these
characters in the first chapteralone.
First of all, it's giving thisalmost contemporary young,
younger version of First WivesClub.

Oh, I've never had that comparison before,
actually, but I'm very into it.
Especially because I am likefeeling very, a lot of feelings
about Diane Keaton at theminute,

yes, of course.
But it's the three friendscoming together.
After the loss of a fourth, andobviously it's very different,
but that is that the fourfriends in First Wives Club,
it's the, when the fourth dies,later when Stocker Channing dies
in the first five minutes of themovie.

(06:58):
That's when the three otherwomen come together.
And so there's like a little, itfeels like an homage to that
movie and with some othernineties kid references in the
book.
I was like, oh, I think thiswill.
Go over well.

Oh, thank you so much.
Yeah, I I wanted to do enoughreferences that did situate it
in a time, but hopefully not somany that were gonna age in a
certain way, like they wouldn'tseem relevant in a few years.
Because I think that's somethingI'm writing at the minute and
I'm like making references tothings on social media, but

(07:31):
trying not to do it very oftenbecause I'm like.
That could, that it's, there mayflies.
They've got such a short kind ofself life.
Whereas I feel like maybenineties and naughty references
stuck a bit better becausethere's not that kind of
transience you get with peoplein five years gonna be going,
what's very demure, verymindful.
What does that mean?
Yeah.

Yeah, it's less like the meme culture and more
like moments of culture.
Or I feel like someone, someonesaid something, someone, a
friend of mine years ago said,is this a movement or is this a
moment about, I don't rememberwhat, but that's what makes I, I
feel like that's what you'retalking about.

(08:14):
Is it a moment or is itsomething bigger than that will
be longer standing anyway.
I have to know, have you everneeded to accommodate a plant at
a bar?

I haven't, but I think that's because I don't go
out very much anymore.
But I feel like it was the kindof thing I was at the, feeling
slightly curmudgeonly at thenightclub rather than, having a
great time and at the sort ofage where everyone I know is
owning and mothering plants.

(08:43):
So yeah, I feel like it mashedboth of those phases of life
together for me.

I feel like I would be the friend who said,
sorry, I can't go out.
I have to water my cactus.

Yeah, I'm like, I'm not very good at maintaining
plants.
I am unfortunately, a notoriousserial killer of succulents.
I've let so many die and I dunnohow it's happened.
I've got one that's just aboutalive on my window sill, but
yeah, not very good with plants.
Fingers crossed for it.

So the cactus, the plant at the beginning of
the book, it's described asthriving on neglect.
Do you thrive on neglect?

I think I thrive on, not neglect, but definitely
being left alone.
I don't think I would've beenable to write this novel if I
hadn't had.
People leave me alone to get onwith it.
So yeah, I think I do.
I do like my own space, I'll behonest.
Yeah.

So this fir this, the book opens it is this great
night out for them.
This, them being the group offriends.
What does a great night out lookfor you?
Or what did a great night outlook for you when you were of
the mind of going out?

I think for me the best.
Big nights out, were always theones that weren't planned in
advance.
I think that's the I know a lotof people nowadays who will be
like, oh, if we're gonna do thisor if we're gonna go to this
place, or if there's an ideathat we might wanna go to this
place, then I'm gonna have toget a babysitter, or I'm gonna

(10:21):
have to take the day off workafterwards, or I'm gonna have to
make sure I have no plans theday afterwards and.
I, I think if there was a notionthat a night was gonna be a big
night I would feel quitepanicked.
Point it beforehand.
So I think the best ones werealways.
The most spontaneous where it'soh yeah, we're just meeting for

(10:41):
like a catch up over a couple ofglasses of wine and then it's
four in the morning and you'reclutching each other's hands and
saying, I think this dreamreally is possible for you.
I don't know why you putyourself down so much.
So yeah, I do think definitelyspontaneity is.
Where it's best to catch me.

(11:02):
I think planned nights give methe heebie-jeebies.

I totally agree with that, and don't even think
I realized it.
I feel like I'm just alwaystired, but if someone said,
let's go to dinner and have avery simple, casual dinner, but
then next thing I knew I was outall night.
I could like maybe rally, butit's the putting clothes on in
the first place that I have ahard time with.

Yeah.
And then I think it's becausemaybe because a lot of people, I
know you don't, it's difficultto tell in advance like what
mood they're gonna be in, havethey.
Got the kids babysat, have they,got not much to do the next day?
Are they gonna want to do that?
And if you go into it with themindset of we're gonna be up

(11:47):
until sunrise then, and thenthey put their coats on after.
Two, two and a half hours andgo, yeah oh yawn, I'd better get
home.
I'm not feeling too energetictonight.
Then you're just like, oh, I puton a bra for this.
Really?
So yeah,

Oh my God, that's so funny.
there's a character who, Ipromise I'll stop just talking
about the first eight pages ofthe book, but like I said a
second ago, there's so much thathappens at the very beginning.
You learn so much about each ofthese characters and in turn, I
felt like I was also getting aglimpse into you and your life,
but there's a character who.
Says that it is out of characterfor her to leave the bar when

(12:28):
the Abba mega mix is playing.
Is that true for you?
Were you the one on the dancefloor being the dancing queen?

Definitely for abba, I think there's always I'm
always gutted because I, there'sa lot of very specific songs
that I will want to dance tothen if I've missed it.
I'm just like, oh, I feel likeI've not hit all the milestones
of the night.
I think I, one of my friends,one of my friends got married
recently and had their weddingreception in a museum.

(12:58):
They'd hired out for the night,which was very cool, and they
asked everyone who is attendingthe wedding to make a suggestion
for the playlist because theyset in the speeches.
If you think the music's crap,it's your own fault.
So I suggested Rasputin by BoneyM and and I, because we was in a

(13:19):
museum and I was having a greattime wandering around
taxidermied animals at night, itwas just amazing.
But the dance floor was in aportrait gallery that was not.
Audible from the part of themuseum I was in, and so I missed
it.
And I'm gutted.

Oh no.
Who would've thought?

it was a great wedding though.
Great venue.

That does sound very cool.
Okay.
I'm very curious, oh wait, Ineed to go back to something you
said how a night could end upwhere it's four o'clock in the
morning and you're holding yourfriend's hand and you're talking
about the, dreams beingsomething you could fulfill.
Have you ever had one of thosenights?
What is something do have, didyou have like a spark of
inspiration at one of those 4:00AM moments?

I don't know.
I think.
I think the best time is outwhen everyone's still euphoric
and blissful before people startgetting slightly nihilistic.
Because I think I've had a fewof those and it was like, and
you've made the choice oh no, Iwanna keep going.
Wanna stay up later.
And then the tone just takes avery somber turn and you're

(14:31):
like, yeah, I should have got ataxi home, shouldn't I?

Yeah, but I think for me I look back on some of
those nights and I'm just like,I don't know that I would be the
person that I am today withoutthe.
Regret.

Yeah, I agree.
I think, yeah, I think it isthat kind of thing of like
almost trying to pull yourselfout of.
The out of the regret bythinking about the story, you're
gonna tell about it afterwardsand the way you're gonna
repackage it over your nextnight out and say, oh, would you

(15:09):
remember that time when when wesaid we were gonna do a run the
next day or when we said we weregonna do, go.
See swimming the next day orwhen we said we were gonna start
a podcast together, which I'vedone quite a few times recently
with one particular friend.
Every time we've had a couple ofwines together, it's like, we
need to get on a Zoom and talkabout that podcast we're gonna

(15:32):
do.
But yeah, I think it is.
Yeah.
Amidst the regret.
It's imagining yourself on the

come it hasn't come to be

I really should.
I feel like I, I hate the soundof my own voice, so apologies
for that, but I think I, yeahit's getting the time together
and getting an idea that isn'tjust two friends sort of
chatting shit, which I think alot of podcasts are, but yeah.

Yeah, I understand.
Yeah, the repackaging of thenight is so funny though.
You are the one who just broughtup having to perhaps talked
about going for a run the nextmorning.
Girl, there is so much runningin this book.

Yeah.

Where did, are you a runner?
Where the hell did that come

uh, My sister's a really big runner.
She's very competitive and doesmarathons and all that sort of
thing.
I have.
Run.
I intend to, again, I am, I donot currently identify

To get the bus.

But yeah, no, I I think it was just I did want
that kind of as a, as anactivity for Maggie, the
character who gets into running,but I didn't want it to be
magically like her.
Being amazing at it straightaway.
I was like, this needs to be avery woman age 30 who has just

(16:56):
an ongoing hangover trying toinject some kind of health into
her life and brain.
And yeah, that was where thatcame into it.

Yeah, that's fair.
I feel like I've always said I,I will only run to something or
away from something I don'twanna run like just for fun.

Yeah.
No, I think I, whenever I didoccasionally run, I enjoyed the
feeling of having run when itwas over, but never ever the
feeling of actually running.
I be like, people would talkabout, oh, once you push through
the wall and you get to thissort of high, and I was like,
no, I don't think that's not ahigh I want to experience.

(17:38):
It is, but I don't think it'sgonna happen.
So

No.
No, I feel that I'm either lateor in danger.

that's amazing.
I'm gonna use that.

It's true.
Okay.
I have to know from your mouth,what is the lesbian rule?

Oh, I can't remember how I stumbled upon the
lesbian rule, which was somesort of like ancient tool and
then I was like this in a momentof when.
Maggie, the character who bringsit up is she's on MDMA and she's
drunk and the feeling of justwanting to melt into this woman

(18:17):
that she's really into and likealmost wanting to like climb
inside her because she's just, Ithink because that relationship
with Kate or Situationship Kateis so distant and Maggie.
Then just wants to latch ontoher in that way.
Yeah, I can't remember how Istumbled across that piece of
information.
Probably in some sort ofWikipedia

you

hole.
I think it's a sort of, I'mstruggling to describe it now.
It's like a, I can't evenremember what it's used for
night.
It's it's like a curved rod orsomething.
Yeah, which is ironic forlesbians, but,

That's so funny.
I also, thi this book made merealize how many D words cause
panic.

mm.

You have deadlines, debt, drinking,
dentist, dread, despair, and Iwas like, oh, that's real.
When did you realize that?

day is real.
Yeah.
I think it, it was fortunate asfor that sort of that's line
that they used to refer toanxiety as like getting the day.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It is.
I, it would be a fun challengeto work out, could I find
synonyms, but then it wouldn'treally work with the expression,

(19:39):
yeah.
But it was definitely handy.
It's it also felt like a sort ofwhimsical way of describing
crippling anxiety, which I thinkis how a lot of the characters
in the book deal with very, verystressful and difficult emotions
is to make a little joke aboutit and pretend everything's
fine.

I was just thinking of more and I was,
okay.
Depression, doubt.

Yes.

I'm suddenly, my brain is just there has to be
more, like this is clearly arule that we don't even realize
exists

yeah.
I don't, I guess the, thatprefix day, like day eight
means, decline like regressionor depression of some kind yeah.
Oh,

Oh, duh.
But not deadlines in debt anddrinking and dentists, like
those are not

Yeah.

Yeah.

I know.

That's really

Yeah, this is about as philosophical as

you had me

like, oh my God.
Yeah.
I am smart.

it's like a right, like some sort of new
philosophical rule that you'vecreated.
Something.
Getting the D means that youhave anxiety and depression.
So funny.
We, I don't know how old youare, but I was like, we have so
many of the same references thatpop up in the book that just

(21:03):
brought me joy, my twofavorites, being OkCupid and
you've got mail.

yeah.
Big.
Ignore Aron.
Fun.
Yeah.
Yeah.

You've got Male is hands down one of my favorite
movies of all time, which Ithink is a little problematic
these days in terms of, the bigcorporation situation,
billionaire things that we havegoing on.
But OkCupid, are you an OkCupid?
Was that a thing?
Tell me

I think because if I remember correctly, I think
that was like a reference thatwas whenever one of the
characters was a teenager.
And I think when she was growingup and learning what kind of,
she, I think she, she goes safesex must have been sex that
ended like a date that endedwithout you getting murdered by

(21:52):
a stranger.
You might on.
Okay.
Keep it.
And I think.
That was because whenever I wasa teenager, those were the only
kind of.
Online dating things thatexisted, I think, or that I was
aware of anyway.
I think the app scene was morewhenever I was in my twenties.
So yeah, it felt because I thinkas well, because I got a lot of

(22:14):
lectures in school and stuffabout the dangers of chat rooms
and speaking to strangers on theinternet and I.
Here we are years later and thatwe never stopped doing that.
We're we just live there now,all together in a one horrible
commune.

I know.
It had me thinking about yourdating life which of course I
know nothing about, but I amcurious to know if, what is the
thing that if you walked intosomeone's.
That you saw that would make youimmediately wanna leave

that's a really good question.
Ah, because, so I've been in a,

deep journalism going on

I have been in a relationship for three years
now, so I haven't had to thinkabout X in quite a long time.
Oh, do you know what?
Any kind of musical instrument,because I dated a lot of
musicians and I don't wanna dothat ever again.
Yeah.
That would be my red

but context is so important though because what if
it was like theirgreat-grandfathers and they
weren't actually a musician, butthey had it on display, but you
didn't even think to ask them.
You just.
Scoot it off.

it wasn't meant to be, was it?

I know that's so true.
I was thinking, I was wonderingthe same thing for myself, and I
don't, I wonder if it's anunmade bed or a mountain of
dishes in the sink or not havinga bookshelf.
I couldn't, I was trying tothink what that would be

Yeah.
I feel like an unmade bed isvery, even though mine isn't
always made, I feel like.
Yeah.
Also, if it's a bed that's not abed, it's just like a box spring
or a mattress on the floor.
That's, that feels bleak.

Yes.

Yeah.

And it's okay that your bed isn't always made,
but if you know you're havingsomeone come over, you're
probably gonna

Exactly.
Yeah.
I think laundry, dirty laundry,sitting out.
Ugh, gross.
If you know someone's comingover, bad manners.

yeah.

Too much faith in your own

And it also made me think of the opposite too.

oh, sorry.
I think there might have been adelay.

I do think there's a very short as tiny
delay, but I was gonna say thatit made me think of the opposite
too.
Whereas what if I like got tosomeone's apartment and I saw
something that would make mewanna stay and like maybe it's a
stack of my favorite books orit's, I see that they're a baker
and they've just baked cookiesor.

(24:53):
Those are the first two thingsthat come to mind.

Yeah, I am just thinking as well because the
first time that, my now partnercame back to mine.
I had just got back from like atrip and so I had an open
suitcase and most of mypossessions strewn all over the
room.
So if I had used my rules onmyself, I would never have seen

(25:19):
me again.
So maybe it's all meaninglessanyway.
Yeah, I dunno.

Or maybe you're that great.

probably true actually.
That's, let's go with that.

Yes.
It was such a good date that it,there was, it didn't matter what
was ha what was showing up.
You talk about tequila being ayoung person's game.
Say more.
What is your trauma withtequila?
That clearly came from

I do.
You know what, I actually,tequila would've been my shot of
choice.
It, Sambuca was the one Icouldn't do.
I think after one of my friends,we went to a gig together in
Belfast and it was in a reallyhorrible pub we were in
beforehand and she was like, sheloved Sambuca and she was like,
I'm gonna go and order us a shotof Sambuca.

(26:04):
And she came back a with threeshots each and b.
They didn't have any normalsambuca, so two of the shots
were cinnamon flavored Sambuca,which tasted like medicine as if
Sambuca doesn't already tastelike medicine.
Two of them were banana flavoredSambuca, which was so gross.

(26:25):
And I think the other two werestrawberry.
It was a very bizarre cocktailof mistakes that went on that
night.
But yeah, so I, I.

This is

Yeah, so I always used to drink tequila and
I think I ju maybe it waslockdown or something, or maybe
it was just not drinking it fora while, or maybe it was the.
it's more socially acceptablenow to drink sort of milder
shots like baby guinnesses ortequila rose or something.
But I'm not like, I'm not likesuch a baby.

(26:55):
I can only drink really milkyshots.
So yeah, I think the last time Itried tequila, it did make me
wanna throw up in the street.

You said milky shots and that a follow up
question is, what the hell ischocolate tequila?
Where did that come from?
That sounded disgusting, butalso I'm very curious.
I, I.

I don't know if it was just a specific offering,
if you can call it that, by oneclub called Limelight in Belfast
at a particular time in mytwenties.
But Yeah.
Yeah not a good.
Ugh.
Yeah, it wasn't nice.
I don't think it was even thatmilky.

There's no way they still

I haven't been in a very long time.
I went on I have a Facebook, Inever go on it anymore.
And I went on the other day forthe first time in months and I
had a notification that said,limelight Belfast has added an
event that you might beinterested in.
And I was like, I.
Very much doubt that the templeof chocolate, tequila, and bad

(28:01):
decisions.

That is so funny.
Oh my God, that sounds like agreat book title.
I.
There's so much aboutfriendship, obviously, in this
book and what it means to knowpeople for so long, and there is
that sort of threshold of.

(28:23):
Of friend to family and that nomatter where the world takes
you, that you know that there isthe connective fabric that
you'll forever be a part of thatperson.
What's your history withfriends?
Like how, what's your friendgroup like?
This I, for, I think everyone'sin a specific age demo, pre and

(28:47):
post.
Deep internet have a reallyspecific relationship to their
friends.
Can you share a bit about them?

Yeah, I think whenever I started writing this
book, I had just left Belfastand I had a core group of
friends that I'd been at uniwith.
And it was, we were all some ofthem were staying in Belfast and
some of them were like me, weregoing off to different places
and I think.

(29:17):
There was like missing going outwith them while I lived in
Belfast.
But then also we kept in touch alot.
Like we sent each other endlessvoice notes and, almost every
day.
And so we kept in touch thatway.
So I think that's probably oneway that if we didn't live in a
social media age and have somuch technology at our disposal.

(29:41):
We maybe wouldn't have had thatkind of connection that was
maintained like after, afterwe'd all moved away from each
other.
That was more than just saying,oh, someone's engaged on
Instagram.
We were just voice noting aboutlike a lot of minutia and it
was.
A lot more convenient thantrying to kinda coordinate four

(30:01):
or five people to all do a zoomtogether.
And I guess this was back beforeZoom was such a huge thing as
well'cause it was pre pandemic.
But yeah, I think that yeah,like every time I see my
friends, there'll be like myfriends from home.
Definitely and the friends thatI've made since moving to
England who have since movedaway as well.

(30:24):
I think there's this sort of,you catch up on the recent stuff
and the new stuff and then youstart getting into kind of like
applying through old grind, butit doesn't feel boring or
repetitive.
It's more kind of I don't knowif other people, if my friends

(30:44):
feel the same or if other peoplefeel the same.
It's like reminding yourselfthat we're not losing the sacred
texts.
Like we still all remember thoseanecdotes that we.
That became part of our grouplore and that we all still make
references to anytime my friendRachel, who was the one who
bought me the Sambuca before,anytime she's like out with us

(31:06):
or we're all at a weddingtogether and we'll be like, is
Pam out tonight?
Because 10 years ago she waslike, I think I've got a drunk
alter ego.
And she's called Angry Pamela.
And so we like, we're stilltalking about angry Pam.
10, 10 years later.
And it's because I think when wesee each other again, we'll
still keep reminding each otherof those references and it's

(31:28):
like quoting a sort of belovedfilm or something to people, but
it's your own lives.
So that sounds quite wanky, butlike quite pretentious and, but
yeah.
Yeah.
I think it's just going backover.

No I've.
I've never really thought of itlike that before, and I think
it's such a beautiful way tothink about it, because to me,
my first instinct is to beannoyed that we're rehashing the
same things, or that someone'stelling the same story or it
almost feels questioning mymemory of something rather than,
no, we're trying to keep thosememories alive and I think, I

(32:04):
think that's a really fun andspecial way to think about it.

Thank you.
Yeah.
I just, that's fresh in my mindnow'cause I was at a wedding a
couple of weeks ago and we weretalking about angry Pam yeah.
And it made me glad that thosetexts are still very much alive.
I.

Yeah.
What would your drunk alter ego

Oh, mine.
Actually, I think I gave hername to Lydia in the book.
Mine was always Betty and it wasshe, I think I used to do like
after some wine and tequila.
I used to do what was, inhindsight, a chronically bad
queen's accent and I used to puton a character of some sort of

(32:49):
aging showgirl that was, andstart talking to, it feels quite
topical given life of a showgirland the, but I feel like I used
to do that alter ego of givingpeople advice and Yeah.
Yeah.
The OJ life of a showgirl.

I please, I need a little glimmer of it.
I need a tiny bit.
What's a piece of advice youwould give me as this age
showgirl?

Oh my God.
I can't, I think it was normallyin the brand of dump him, but
the, what is it?
The Britney Spears T-shirt?
Yeah.
It was probably like,

I need to see the voice I need, or I need to hear
the voice I need.
Come on, give

this is gonna be here for all time.
I cannot commit that too.
Honestly, it was so bad.
I'm only, I'm also only any goodat accents whenever I'm a bit
pissed so yeah I've made thismistake before where I'm like,
I've done a brilliant impressionwhen I'm drunk and then I try
and re recreated sober and it'sjust not gonna happen.

(33:52):
And then I feel like I've pickedit up too much.

That's because it's brilliant because everyone
is drunk and that's the only

is true.
I,

I fully respect that you know yourself and that
you know that this is beingrecorded and that you, maybe you
wanna run for office one day,maybe, who knows?
And this, it doesn't need toexist in the world.
We'll just have to imagine it,and that's okay.

yeah.
Yeah.
And however bad you imagine itwas, I assure you it was worse.

Okay.
I am obsessed.
You also brought up life of ashowgirl and Taylor Swift comes
up a few times in the book.
What are your thoughts andfeelings?
How do you feel about the album?
What's happening?
Are you a Swift eat?
Tell me

I'm a swifty.
I actually really enjoy the newalbum and I feel like on the day
I came out, I listened to itfirst thing in the morning and I
was like, oh, I'm into this.
And then I went on social mediaand discovered I was wrong.
But yeah, I think I really enjoyit.
I think the only song I'm not,

So do I.

fast on is wishlist, but the rest I'm like,
bangers.
And then there's this weirdthing of remembering people are
like this is, this can't be thewoman who wrote tortured poets
department.
And I'm just like, you hatedthat when it came out as well.
What are you talking about?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I say.

Yes.
Thank you.
This, and listen, I am not aswifty, but I am pay attention
to the world around me, and I'mlike, every single time this
woman comes out with an album,the people hate it.
And then they listen to itmultiple times and then they
love it.
And the jokes on all of usbecause her tour is still gonna
sell a bajillion dollars andpeople are still gonna line up
to go see her because she is ashow person.

(35:33):
And that's what we love to see.
And the music is a bop.

Yeah, I enjoy it.
Someone asked me which era orwhich album I thought Thirst
Trap would be?
And I was like, caught offguard, even though I should have
thought that about this agesago.
And I said, midnights.
And I think I stand by thatbecause Midnights was an album
that was about learning thatsomething wasn't.

(35:58):
Serving you and was, and thatwas something you needed to let
go of.
And a lot of late nightponderings and freakouts.
And I was like that's my book.

Maybe it's midnight's, life of a showgirl
rising.

Yeah.

Did you ever take archery lessons?

I did actually when I was 18.
So they weren't they weren'tbooked.
I think I was trying to think ofthe kind of thing I would've.
Wanted to return to as it likelater in life thinking.
Yeah, I was really good at that.
Let's try that again.
But yeah, I did with my sister.

(36:37):
It was around about the time theHunger Games came out as well.
I think so, yeah.
I think I was trying to

What's so funny about that is every once in a
while I will.
That's so funny.
Every once in a while I will askan author a question like that,
knowing full well that like,obviously books are fiction or
fiction is fiction and it isvery unlikely that something
like that happened in their reallife.
So I was not expecting you tosay it.
I was expecting you to roll youreyes and be like, no, Jason,

(37:07):
that's made up because this is abook.

I didn't book them drunk.
I think me and my sister wereteenagers and really wanted to
do archery, so it was quiteactually quite a wholesome

so

pursuit.

I am only now remembering that when I was at a
summer camp when I was, I don'tknow, seven or eight years old,
there were like multipleactivities throughout the day
that you could sign up for andone of them was archery, and I'm
sure I was terrible at it, butI.
Who knows.
I don't know if it was fun, butit's, because who sports when I
was that young were not mything.

Yeah I think I tried most sports and was
middling at all of them.
Yeah.
Yeah, we're actually I was goodat archery actually.
Managed not to kill anyone.
Success.

All that matters.
That's like goal one of archery.
So funny.
The book had me thinking so muchabout how when you're friends
with somebody for so long, howyou are not always given the
grace of change and.

(38:23):
When someone knows you so wellthat you're almost put in a box
and that's how you're known andhow you're supposed to be.
And it just got me thinkingabout how to challenge that with
the people that have been in ourlives for a long time.
And, is it a matter of actionsand proving yourself or, I don't

(38:46):
know, but it.
It just had me thinking aboutthat because we're not the same
people that we were when wewere, 18, 19, 20, meeting
friends for the first time.
What has that experience beenlike for you?

Yeah, I think the only, if I'm ever inclined
to like.
Resent or challenge change inother people?
It's generally because they'relike suddenly less available as
a friend.
And I know that people gothrough phases of life where,

(39:19):
you know, because of work orbecause of relationships or
families and all kinds ofreasons that, people aren't
gonna be, you're not necessarilygonna be live in each other's
pockets the way you might.
When you're, 25 and all livingtogether.
So I think, but I think it canbe I.

(39:41):
A bit jarring whenever there'ssomeone who you knew in your
twenties, say as like a massivesesh head who wanted to stay out
until four in the morning, andthey're now like wanting to live
a different life.
But if that then means that theydon't wanna see certain people
because they assume because youhave those shared memories

(40:01):
that's gonna be, and then youalmost have to take them.
By the shoulders and be like wecan just meet up and have
coffee.
We can just have lunch.
It doesn't have to be, if that'sa change that you've made in
your life, that's fine.
I think, yeah.

But even more specifically though, there is a
moment towards the end of thebook, and I don't want to give
anything away, but basically onefriend says to the other, I know
that this is what you're goingto do and the choice that you're
gonna make, because that's whatyou do.
And it made me.

(40:37):
So sad for both of them that youdon't, you either don't feel
like your friends can change oryou don't feel like you're
capable of change.
So yeah, just thinking aboutwhat does it mean to disappoint
the people around you or thatyou behavior perhaps has grown
and changed over time, but likethe people who are closest to

(40:59):
you or almost too close to youto see it.

Yeah, that's a good question actually.
I think oh, that's, maybe thinknow because I know the thing
you're talking about, obviously,and

yeah,

Oh God.
I've gone

but I was just so

yeah,

bec

I know.
I think it's a,

I know.

yeah.
Oh that's a really good questionand I'm now like in my head a
bit about it.
Trying to think.

And maybe there's not an answer but I'cause,
because I know for me, like I'vebeen in therapy, I've had a lot
of really great and thoughtfuland interesting conversations
with friends and like givingmyself grace and giving other
people grace.
And needing to remember that weare capable of change.
And that is not always the case,right?

(41:46):
I think we all have trauma,we've all been burned, we've all
had those experiences with afriend who does the thing that
always hurt your feelings oralways does whatever.
So you're expecting them tocontinue doing that.

Yeah.
And I,

and it's hard to think about how you make that
change.

yeah, I do.
I do think as well, like I'm notsure if there's sometimes
whenever people fall out withfriends because they've,
someone's made a mistake orsomeone has been acting a
certain way, I feel like wemaybe have.
M are more motivated to try andimprove things and try and

(42:26):
persevere when it comes toromantic relationships.
But sometimes with friendships,it's just and maybe that's a
case of you maybe live with yourromantic partner, so it's
logistically more practical foryou to try and work something
out.
Whereas when.
You if you don't live withfriends it's more easy to stew
and let things slide and slideout of contact with someone and

(42:51):
then just realize, oh yeah, wehaven't spoken in a while
because someone did that thingor we had, something go on or
something that was neverresolved and it feels awkward to
go back and address it now.
And I think because as well, youdon't often have like formal.
Friendship breakups in the waythat you do romantically, then

(43:12):
it's kinda left a bit more up tooh yeah, we just fell out of
touch.
Even though it can be asdevastating a heartbreak as
breaking up with someone youwere in love with.
Yeah, so I think the kind of.
Sorry, that's really rambling,but that's, I do know what you

(43:32):
mean about

that's a really great

sorry.
I think there is a delay again.
No I do know what you mean aboutgiving people space to know that
they're able to change and Ithink.
The same is in a romanticrelationship.
It's important not to, if you'veforgiven someone for something
and decided to move on andaccept that they've changed.
And it is important to not hangon to that because I think it

(43:57):
can be as toxic in friendshipswhen if you've got in the back
of your head like, oh yeah, we.
We fell out, but we've made upnow.
But then whenever someone makesa mistake, it's she was always
like this.
Did I ever tell you about thetime she did that or he did
whatever?
And yeah, so I think itdefinitely is important to, if
you're gonna make up, thereneeds to be some kind of letting

(44:19):
go of that.

And it is so interesting you bringing up the
whole oh, we just fell out, or,oh, we just lost touch because
we, the, it sounds that thestakes are lower with friends,
but you're right, we're notliving on top of each other.
There's not the potential ofromantic.
Future and legal entanglements,right?
They're less of a reason to havedifficult and awkward

(44:44):
conversations with friends, torekindle something that wasn't,
that's not necessarily working.
But to circle it back to justthe idea of queer community, but
also this like core group offriends that exist in the book,
when you have these friends asfamily, it.
It makes me just think about howimportant it is to have some of

(45:05):
those difficult conversationswith the friends that you love.
And anyway, the book, I think,in general reminded me of that
and made me think about that aswell.

Oh, thank you.
Yeah I do think and I think Ihad a movie I, whenever I was in
my twenties, I was like, oh, nowI am thinking about like how my
friendships are so important andwhy are we always prioritizing.
Romantic relationships is thiskind of, and friendships is like
a placeholder until somethinglike that comes along.

(45:35):
And I, and once I'd come tothat, I was like, yes, my
friendships are so important andwe're all gonna be this close in
the exactly the same wayforever, with exactly the same
immediacy of intimacy and.
Contact and all of that.
And then of course you do get abit older and things do change
and you feel I felt, anyway.

(45:57):
I was like, was I lying tomyself?
Was it all, all of this,romanticization that I did
around friendship, was thatmisplaced somehow?
Because now it takes, threeweeks in a doodle poll to, to
get three people together forlunch one weekend.
But I do, I think it's hangingon to the how important your

(46:19):
friendships are and also,accepting that things are not
always gonna be the same, butthat you need to be able to
adapt to each other and the waythat each other's lives and just
life in general is changing asyou get older.

I love that.
And what a beautiful way to endour conversation.
Grana O'Hare, everyone go getyour copy of Thirst Trap out
now, wherever you get yourbooks.
And thank you so much

Thank you so much for having me.
This has been a really lostchat.
I.

A lush chat.
I love that.
welcome to Gay's reading.
Very happy to have you.
Of course my very special guestgay reader today.
And I am.
I am, I need to get on some sortof crusade or I'm on a crusade

(47:14):
and I need to figure out how toactually make it happen so that
books get published with editorand author notes that we get in
arcs and galleys.

Brian Schaefer (47:26):
Oh yes.

This is my crusade because getting, as I
was just saying, context art andcontext.
If we get the context from aneditor of why they chose to
publish it and some additionalinformation from an author,
should they have additionalcontext to provide, it only
makes the reading experiencebetter.

And I think especially too, because in my
editor letter, I think shemisspelled my name and I think
she refers to me as brain, whichis like a very common thing,
which I do to myself.
But I absolutely love that madeit in there.
These are, uncorrected proofs.
Of course,

Your name comes up twice in the letter.
The first is traditional Brian.
Second is Brain

Yes, that's right.
Yes.
Which it's happened to me all mylife.

Yeah, I get Justin all the

Uhhuh,

Yeah, it's.

yeah.

Whatever it is what it is.
But

Sure.
I'll take it.

brain is good though.
It like implies intelligence,thoughtfulness.

I will, I'll embrace it whenever it's
applied.

Yeah.
Okay.
Well I brought this up about theletters because you have a
beautiful letter that isincluded in the galley that
talks about you and your mombeing the readers of the family.

Yes.

So it is an even more appropriate thing to have
you as my guest gay reader.
So I for, before we talk aboutthat, what are you reading?

What am I reading?
Well, kind of to what we, how westarted.
I'm reading a lot of playbillsthese days, you know, like last
night at Ragtime, that was thesecond piece of theater that
I've seen this week actually,the third, although the first
one was a kind of one-off know,fundraising performance was j
Armstrong Johnson's.
I put a spell on you, which is.
10 year anniversary, his hocuspocus spoof.

(49:15):
It's a fantastic danceextravaganza.
But no, no playbill for that.
But then the night before I sawLittle Bear Ridge Road still in
previews with Lori Metcalf, so Iwas

Controversial but great.

yes, very.
But she is extraordinary.
She is just just mesmerizing towatch.
Last night was rag time onFriday, I'm going to chess.
Which will and I like theplaybills, I love the articles.
I love like the mini one pageprofiles that they do.
I love reading people's bios,how they cram in all their work,

(49:49):
and especially the people whohave won all these awards.
And it's just they, it is just athrowaway, like parentheses
Academy Emmy Tony Award.
I love who they

There's a word count.

Yeah.
I love when Megan Hilty liketotally just grabs Meryl
Streep's biography for deathbecomes her, all the different
ways that people play with it.
And I love seeing the whole teamthat kind of puts the show
together.
And I love like flipping to theback and seeing where everybody
goes for their after theatermeal.

Do you, is that sort of your, is that a routine?
Do you go and are you flippingthrough the playbill before the
show?
Is it a on the train ride home?
Is it a.

It's a little bit of both when I get to the
theater, depending on the amountof time that I have and.
I'm gonna get a playbill threetimes this week, three or four
times this week.
It's not gonna change, it'sstill gonna be the same
articles, but, but maybe Ididn't get to read one of the
articles on Tuesday, so I'mgonna get to read it on
Thursday.
I do love flipping through it onthe subway home.

(50:53):
You know, especially if there'ssomebody in a show who surprises
you and you don't know who theyare, who's this person that blew
me away, that really landed thismoment, that feels like a
discovery.
And I want to know who they are,where they've come from, and,
uh, and that discovery is alwaysa pleasure.
And playbill kind of gives youthat immediate, uh, ability to
kind of, to check them out and,and see who was part of the

(51:13):
cast.

Yeah, it also.
It tells a lot about a personwhat they do and don't include.
And I am meaning, I say thissort of selfishly, but I used to
do casting for theater works,USA and it isn't uncommon for,
young actors to get their equitycard from Theater Works is their

(51:35):
first professional job, and theysort of forget that job ever
happened or existed.
And so when I flip through aplaybill and I see someone
credits a theater work show astheir first job, or that they
just did it at all, it sort ofmeans like, oh, they don't,
they're not forgetting wherethey came from, or they're not
ashamed of where they came from.
They understand the value of thework in general.

(51:57):
There's someone who, she was anunderstudy in a ltel production
of Junie B's Essential SurvivalGuide to School.
And she just made her Broadwaydebut this week and, and Juliet,
and she includes Junie b Jonesin her bio.
And again, it just like means somuch from, for all sorts of
reasons.

(52:17):
But it says a lot about her too.

Yeah, totally.
There.
No there, there are these manyhistories of people.
It's it's fascinating.

What would your Broadway bio say?
Are there fun things that youwould want to include that you
don't necess that wouldn't be inan author bio?

Yeah, I think certainly in the high school
musical when I won the award forbest dancers, I was in, that was
in dam Yankees.
That was in Joseph in theAmazing Technicolor Dream coat.
In a lot of ways that was alittle bit the stepping stones
to how I ended up accidentallygetting an undergraduate degree
in dance.
So I think my bio would.
It would look so arbitrary andjust the different swerves that

(52:58):
I took, because it would beundergraduate at uc, San Diego
in dance, and then all of asudden I'm working for an
Israeli newspaper in Tel Aviv.
All of a sudden writing dancecoverage at the New York Times,
and all of a sudden publishing anovel about, gazes upstate.
None of it makes sense.
None of it leads to anythingelse.
So I think it would just, itwould look odd and hopefully

(53:19):
amusing.

Well, and that's sort of the fun of these
truncated bios.
You really get those bulletpoints and you can.
Imagine what the through line isand what this sort of little
history is.
Not that we need to like keeptalking about it, but I do, I'm,
we, I'm sure we both have beenreading playbills for a very,
very, very long time.
And an interesting thing tothink about that I assume you're

(53:43):
a person who keeps yourplaybills, I assume you're a
person who has revisited themevery once in a while.
Yes, of course.
I one sees the other.
I get it.
Looking back at a show that Isaw.
20 years ago and flippingthrough the playbill to see that
Kelly O'Hara was in the ensembleof the National Tour of Jekyll

(54:04):
and Hyde, and reading her biocompared to obviously who she is
now, it's just a reallyinteresting time capsule too, to
sort of see where people, uh,have come from and what their
journey is, and to remindyourself as a, as an art
consumer, the sort of work thatyou got to see once upon a time.

Yes, absolutely.
And and to remember too, when Igo into, do, go to a theater now
off Broadway or someone in theensemble that one of these
people could be in 10, 20 years,the person who is the headliner,
the star, the above the titlethat I got to discover it's
thrilling.

So what, how, what was that journey like for
you from obviously reader todancer, to journalist, to soon
to be published author?

Yeah, it, I mean, it looks, again, it looks
so arbitrary on paper, but.
Along the way, it made sensesomehow.
And you know, I think the waythat I found my way to dance was
through theater.
It's because my parents were,they were both theater fans and
they basically just played castrecordings, uh, at the home.

(55:15):
And so.
I kind of fell into musicaltheater in high school.
I really cannot sing, but thedance kind of came easily to me
and I really enjoyed it, andthat was something I could
contribute to a production.
And so, especially in highschool, they kind of grabbed me
and put me on the front of thestage and, and I.
You know, I recognized a lovefor it.
And so when I went to undergradand I went as a communication

(55:37):
major, I think my goal was somevague version of journalism pr,
I have no idea.
But I started taking classes atthe dance department and again,
they see a tall guy and theyjust kind of like throw you on
stage in your first semester.
I mean.
But I also fell in love with theart form.
And you know, when I studiedabroad, I studied abroad in

(55:58):
Copenhagen and I watchedeverything that the Royal Danish
Ballet did and was just kind ofblown away.
We did not have that do, wedidn't have, did not have that
level of dance in San Diego.
Um, so that was kinda my firstopportunity to see really world
class dance.
And when I came back and decidedto add a second major, one of
the classes I had to take wascriticism and aesthetics.
And that was an opportunitywhere I first started engaging

(56:20):
with dance through writing, andwe were reading all the great
critics and we were evaluatingshows.
And I found that I really lovedengaging with it in that way.
And the professor of that classwho also ran the dance
department.
She told me afterwards as I wasgraduating that, okay, if you
want to pursue performance,you're improving and you'll find
your way.

(56:41):
You'll find a place foryourself, but dance needs
writers and maybe that can beyour contribution.
And it was the first time that Ireally thought about that
bringing together kind of thewriting that I enjoyed with this
art form that I fell in lovewith.
And so I started doing more ofthat, uh, when I moved to Tel
Aviv for a leadershipfellowship.
I really immersed myself in thedance scene, both kind of folk

(57:04):
dance and contemporary dancebecause I was there because I
had built relationships in thedance writing world.

As an audience member, as a dancer, as a.

kind of All of the above.
I was taking dance workshops.
I was volunteering at theContemporary Dance Center.
And I had also started writing.
I started writing about dancefor like timeout Israel, and
when I started working for thenewspaper, I started writing
about culture for them because Ihad also somewhat separately
joined the Dance CriticsAssociation in the States.

(57:34):
Before I left, I builtrelationships with people
writing about dance at the NewYork Times and

many people are in that association?

Now I don't think they think it exists at.

Because there were six people.

I think it's defunct.
I think the fact that I was inmy mid twenties and I never held
a professional dance writingposition and yet still found
myself on the board of the DanceCritics Association, tells you I
think about what that was.
But it was also an incredibleopportunity

Oh, of course.

like these people who I had been reading,
uh, for so long and I so admiredand I'm now kind of in
conversation with them aboutdance.
It was, it was very exciting.
And because I.
Kind of had that affiliation.
When I approached the New YorkTimes to pitch a story about a
dance company in Israel, theywere open to hearing from me and
nobody else was bringing themthat story.

(58:26):
And so they let me write it.
And it was the first new, it wasthe first story I ever wrote for
a newspaper was for the New YorkTimes, which is just.
like a total Trojan horse.
I'm like jumping in the front ofthe line.
I have absolutely no businessdoing that.
But then once I have that bybyline, I can take that to
anywhere.
And so it really just became theway that I was able to build a

(58:46):
freelance career.
And simultaneously while I wasthere, I stumbled into a
creative writing program inEnglish and fell in love with
fiction as well.
That was the first time that Iwas reading.

With fiction writing,

writing.
Yeah.
Had been reading, babysittersClub, Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew,
devoured everything.
Always a big reader but hadnever, had, never really dabbled
in writing.
Even though my parentsconstantly remind me of this.
I apparently won a writing awardin the fourth grade, and they
take that as, the sign that thisis what I was meant to do.

Yeah.

But I don't even remember it and I really didn't
write my first fiction until,until I was almost 30 really?

That's amazing.
And I fully understand the wholeTrojan horse thing because even
with this podcast, I had beenworking for an arts and culture
center in New York City and.
Was doing a little podcast forthem.
And because of the reputation ofthe building, I was able to have

(59:52):
people like Gabrielle Z andEmily St.
John Mendel and Jenny Jacksonand Sloan Crosley in
conversation.
That was sort of an accident.
And so now, so then when Istarted Gay's reading, I like
had this pedigree and I had alist, right?
So I was like, oh, I guess,okay, here we are.

Brian Schaefer (01:00:10):
It's all accidental and it's all not,
like you, you get yourself inthese positions, you think
about, okay, what can I do withthis?
What are the opportunities thatthis opens up?
And some of that is like totallysubconscious, but you have some
vague sense of like where youwant to go

Jason Blitman (01:00:26):
And what you're capable

Totally, yeah.

so I talked about the letter that came with the
galley written by you, and ofcourse you talk about how you
and your mom were.
The readers of the family andthat now you have a Mommy and Me
book club.
What are some of the things thatyou've read in your book club?
Can you talk about how are youdifferent readers?
I am obsessed that you're bothreading books simultaneously.

(01:00:50):
Tell me everything.

Yes, so it started very unintentionally.
I basically had.
Always wanted to read middleMarch and just one year, one
year from my mom's birthday, Idecided that would be a cute
gift.
I'll give her this book and I'llinvite her to read it with me.
And in retrospect, I was alittle unfair because she had a

(01:01:13):
full-time job.
She was like running adepartment and I was like,
here's this thousand pageVictorian.
Tom, like, please make time toread it with me.
But of course, because she is,she wants to do everything with
her sons, so she said yes.
It took us six months and so wedidn't actually get to debrief
it until Thanksgiving.

(01:01:34):
But when we did, we just hadthis super fun, super special
conversation about marriage andrelationships and all the things
that Middlemarch kind of broughtup, and we both absolutely fell
in love with the book.
And so to share both theaccomplishment of that and also
to see the way that it.
Opened up a new form ofcommunication for us.
I mean, we've always been close,but just some things that we

(01:01:57):
don't regularly talk about.
Oh, your 40 year marriage to myfather, you know, uh, now 50
years.
Um, and at the time I had kindof just started my relationship
with my now husband, and so itjust brought up this
conversation that, I don't know,we would've initiated other ways
and we so enjoyed the experiencethat we.
We decided to do it again andthe pattern became that we

(01:02:21):
really enjoyed reading thesebooks that were very known and
had made an impact on culture.
So these classics that you seereferenced all the time, but we
had never read the sourcematerial, so that started to be
what we aimed for.
And so we ended up reading greatexpectations and portrait of a
lady and the brothers Karasov,and these really massive things.

(01:02:43):
We've been doing it for a decadenow, and for our 10th
anniversary this past summer, Iassigned us Moby Dick, which we
read.

I have it sitting on my shelf.

I went to the Nantucket book festival this
summer for the first time.
It was so much fun and while Iwas there I was like, this has
to be the book of the year.
Like they have a whole likeshrine to it.
So I got us Moby Dick and it wasa great experience.

So a friend of mine suggested a book that is
about all of the queer codedness of Moby Dick.
And so I also bought that bookand he was like, I think you'd
find it very fascinating to readthem in tandem.
I haven't had a chance to dothat yet, but that is my
intention.

I would like to read that.

Yeah.
I'll tell you what it, I can'tremember what it's called, but
I'll let you know.
So it's always big books andit's one a year.

So it's one a year that I gift her for her
birthday.
But because we've built thisrelationship now, we're sharing
books all the time and we'retalking about it always.
And so, you know, she'll, she'llask me what I can recommend when
she's about to take a big tripor she'll, you know, I read all
fours because my mom was.
Reading it and she thought itwas really interesting.

(01:03:49):
And it wasn't a book that Ithink I was gonna pick up
otherwise, but when momrecommends it, it goes top of
the list and and we now have a,an ongoing exchange, which, and
so it's changed, it's changedhow frequently we communicate.
It's changed our conversationsbecause we always have something
to share and we're always takingthese journeys together and we
always have these stories thatwe're both commenting on.

(01:04:12):
So it's been a really fundevelopment.

I love that.
I feel like that happens withbooks in general.
So it's particularly fun to hearthat it's happening with your
mom, a person who you've knownyour whole life, but now get to
experience on a whole new notjust level, but like when there
are themes that come up in abook that you perhaps wouldn't
otherwise talk about.
And that's true, you know, withyour friends as well.

(01:04:35):
But when it comes to a parent,you know, you don't, you don't
think about comparing.
50 year long marriage to thebook that you're just reading
unless you're reading ittogether.
So you said she was one of yourvery early readers.
What is your elevator pitch fortown and country?

Town and Country is follows a congressional race
in a trendy rural district thatupends relationships between a
group of gay, second homeownersand a local family.
And challenges everyone'spolitical, social, and familial
loyalties.
Everybody has that urban centerand that place an hour or two

(01:05:15):
hours away that everyone escapesto that just has this kind of
clash of culture and a constantkind of shift in evolution in
kind of the character of thetown and what that does and how
people participate in it and howit affects their relationships.

If this chapter of your life right now had a
title, what would you call it?

I feel like I am like in my IPO phase, I guess it
would be like Brian goes publicor something like that, just
because.

Just like the best little whorehouse in Texas.

Yeah, exactly.
Quite literally, like myInstagram was private until
earlier this year and had beenfor the, what, 10, 12 years that
I was on it.
And this was a moment wheretalking with my publisher and
they did not pressure me oranything, but they said.
It certainly would help if youwere, if you made this public,

(01:06:11):
if you were willing to shareabout the book and your journey
and use it to make connectionswith readers and people in the
book world.
And it was it was like a momentof, okay, I am putting myself
out there for the first time.
And, you know, and I've writtenarticles for over a decade now
and I've written opinion pieces.
I mean, I've certainly.
Shared my thoughts before, butthere feels something completely

(01:06:35):
different about putting my ownkind of creative project out
there for the first time, andalso putting myself out there
for the first time.
So it really feels like, okay,please buy my stock,

yeah, of course.
And not even just putting yourcreative content out there, but
like among the first things Isaid to you was, I saw that you
were at Ragtime last night we'reconnected on Instagram, because
I saw that.
So it is interesting to be like,oh, this is a very public
platform, but I love that.
IPO, Brian goes public.

(01:07:06):
Yes, the IPO moment.
Yeah, buy my stock.
Lots of good titles with it inthere somewhere.
I'm obsessed.
Earlier you rattled offBabysitters, club Hardy Boys,
Nancy Drew as books that wereinfluential to you.
Is there one in particular thatreally sparked your love of
reading as a young person?

I think all of those books, all those books, I
think like the ongoing story ofthese characters is the thing
that.

Interesting.

That I was able to follow their journey and a
little bit their growth.
I would say probably moreBabysitters Club.
The other thing that I lovedabout the Babysitters Club is
that whatever I was dealing within my life, I felt like I could
find a story in that series thatspoke to it in some way.
So something that one of thecharacters was going through.

(01:07:56):
If I was having a moment atschool or some friendship that
was on the rocks or a.
You know, it was like I foundsolace and I found direction and
I found companionship in thosebooks.
And they think they instill alove of reading and I think a
habit of reading and kind oflike the, like the physical
comfort with sitting thereflipping through pages and

(01:08:17):
knowing that you can do it forhours and hours and take such
pleasure in it.
Because I think it, I think itreally is like a physical habit
that.
We lose when we keep scrollingthrough our phones.
And it is a thing that, it's amuscle that you have to
maintain.
And I think when people saythat, oh, I don't have time for
reading, I think half the timesit's, no, you lost the muscle
for reading and you haven't, youhaven't worked it out, you

(01:08:40):
haven't cultivated it, youhaven't given it attention.

When people say, when people ask me that, the
first thing I say is, I have toput my phone down.
I have to put it away.
I have to put it on do notdisturb.
Any little buzz or anythingdistracts

Yeah,

It distracts me in the sense of I wanna then
look

yeah.
Exactly.
No, and I'm, I just make it ahabit where.
The first thing I pick up in amorning is a book.
And the last thing I put down isa book, which is also just good
for mental health, is to nothave a news flash, be the last,
the first or last thing that yousee.
The news is no less horrific,but if you start with a story

(01:09:16):
you have already like, enteredinto a different space, that at
least for me makes me.
Able to receive whatever news isgonna come through the day.
And also to know that I'm gonnareturn to that story and I'm
gonna be with characters.
I'm gonna be in, this beautifulworld as the last thing I do.
That's been helpful.
And it also keeps you, even ifyou only get to read a page in

(01:09:38):
the morning, a page at night, itkeeps that momentum going.
So you actually do make your waythrough a book.

Yeah, exactly.
That's slow and steady wins therace.
You just have to do it.
The emails will be there, thenews will be there no matter
what, jump into a book, and thatbook can be Town and Country by
Brian Schafer, or Brain Schafer,depending on where you're buying
your book.
Either way, dyslexia friendly.

(01:10:03):
It's all great.
Brian, thank you so much forbeing here.
Thank you for being my guest gayreader today.

you for having me.
It was such a joy.
Thank you, Grana.
Thank you Brian.
Everyone, have a wonderful restof your day, like and subscribe
wherever you get your podcast.
It means so much.
Thank you for being here, and Iwill see you later this week
with the announcement of theDecember booklet pick.
All right, everyone.
Bye.

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