Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Gaze reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what, andwhy.
Anyone can listen.
Comes we are spoiler free.
Reading from Stars to book clubpicks.
The curious minds can get theirpicks.
So you say you're not gay.
(00:24):
Well that's okay.
There's something for everyone.
Gays rating.
Hello and welcome to the seasonfinale of Gay's Reading.
I'm your host, Jason Blitman,and on today's episode I have JR
Dawson talking to me about herbook, the Lighthouse at the Edge
(00:47):
of the World.
My guest, gay reader is PulitzerPrize winning journalist and
bestselling author, JonathanCapehart.
I am so excited for you to hearthis conversation.
It is super, super special tome.
JR Dawson and I actually went tocollege together.
You'll learn a little bit moreabout that in our conversation,
but we met even before freshmanyear started, and so it's so
(01:11):
special that I get to.
And this season of gay's readingwith her, as my conversation
partner.
So I am taking hiatus in August.
I will have one special episodein the middle of August on
August 15th to announce theSeptember book Club pick.
So if you're not familiar, thereis a Gay's reading book Club
(01:31):
with Allstora.
This month we're finishing Julywith Disappoint Me by Nicola
Dinan.
And then the August Book Clubbook is No Body, no Crime by
Tess Sharpe.
And then the September book willbe announced in Midgut.
So.
while the gays reading hiatus isgoing on, you could still read
along in the book club.
(01:51):
You can follow us over onSubstack.
I'll be posting some more stuffover there.
And also there's a lot of backcatalog, so if you haven't
listened to other gays readingepisodes, now is a great time to
catch up on some previousconversations.
As always, if you like whatyou're hearing, please share us
with your friends.
Follow us on social media.
(02:12):
We are at Gaze reading over onInstagram, and if you could like
and subscribe wherever you getyour podcasts and especially on
YouTube.
All of that helps the algorithmand helps this little indie
podcast go just.
A little bit further on thejourney to, uh, maybe getting me
to make some money, which wouldbe super cool.
So, I appreciate all of you somuch and that all of you have
(02:34):
been on this journey with me andwith these authors, and with
these guest gay readers, and ithas been just a super and
overwhelmingly, wonderfulseason.
And so I'm grateful to all ofyou for listening.
And now enjoy my conversationswith JR Dawson and Jonathan
Capehart.
JR Dawson (02:54):
Ah, it's been like 20
years,
Jason Blitman (02:57):
15.
JR Dawson (02:58):
15 years.
Oh my God.
Jason Blitman (03:00):
How are you
JR Dawson (03:01):
I am good.
I'm good.
Jason Blitman (03:03):
My, my brain is
so I've been so looking forward
to today for so long.
JR Dawson (03:08):
too.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (03:10):
the whole time I
was reading the book, I was
like, I can't believe I'mreading Jenny's book.
JR Dawson (03:15):
And I was like, oh my
gosh, this is like my college
book.
This is, And I was excited foryou to read it.
Jason Blitman (03:21):
It's so
interesting because the book is
dedicated to who you were.
And literally page one, not evenpage one, page zero, I'm like
getting Misty.
'cause I was like, I knew her.
I knew that girl that this bookis dedicated to did too.
And so of course reading it thenmeant so much.
(03:41):
I'm like, I don't even knowwhere to begin.
I'm very honored to know thatgirl that this book is dedicated
to.
What is your elevator pitch forthe lighthouse at the end of the
world, I guess I should say, JR.
Dawson, welcome to Gay'sReading.
JR Dawson (03:59):
you.
My, my very quick pitch is it'sa s Orpheus retelling take
taking place in Chicago.
So that's my very, very quickpitch.
The little bit longer pitch isthat the.
Lake Michigan is the RiverSticks.
Nera is the ferry, the Ferman'sdaughter, the ferryman of the
Dead's daughter, and she's goingto be taking over his job and
(04:21):
everything's great until onenight when she finds a very live
woman on her boat who is lookingfor her sister who has passed
away.
And that's the beginning ofthat.
Jason Blitman (04:34):
What inspired the
Orpheus adaptation?
JR Dawson (04:39):
Yeah.
So, uh, a couple of things.
I actually didn't know aboutOrpheus and Courtesy until one
of our theater school classesmade us go see Sarah Rules.
it all goes back to this book,go, goes back to DePaul.
Okay.
And so I went to go see that andI was like, oh, wow that's a
real deep myth.
And so then I just kind ofbecame.
(05:00):
With the story of, of Orpheus.
And I also think that being inChicago, and that was like the
first time that I really steppedout into the world by myself,
and it was a very big world andI had freedoms that I had not
had before.
Um, and just exploring the city,but also seeing this weird
(05:22):
contrast when it came to theshore of Lake Michigan,
especially at night, where thecity was always so bright and so
alive and filled with light andthen there was just nothing.
And living in Omaha, Nebraska, Ihadn't ever seen that before.
Like a coastal, it's not acoast, but like a coastal
Jason Blitman (05:43):
like a coast.
JR Dawson (05:44):
It sure does.
And so I remember a couple oftimes where.
Me and, and friends includingPatrick Sly, like we would go
out and like, just kind of likelook up at the stars and look
out.
And I, I remember one time myold theater teacher had passed
around the same time thatPatrick's theater teacher had
passed and we went out there andkind of like held a, a little
(06:06):
memorial.
So, then what, four years after,after we graduated, my, one of
my friends from DePaul passedand they were actually had their
ceremony on Lake Michigan.
And so it was just always likethis lake is very, for me,
connected with death andcrossing over in kind of this
(06:27):
liminal space outside of thissuper busy city.
Jason Blitman (06:30):
Wow.
I recently talked to Erica jSimpson about her memoir.
Erica was in the same actingclass as Jeremy Harris
JR Dawson (06:41):
Really?
Oh, so she was, a wee babe.
Jason Blitman (06:44):
she was a weeba
babe, but she was also cut from
the acting program.
And so reading her memoir abouther story of her mom trying to
find housing for them andaddiction issues and moving from
place to place and the journeythat she went to get to school
only to then get kicked out andthen what that did to her and
meant for her.
(07:04):
She was talking about her.
There's, there are pieces in thebook about her time at DePaul
And I was saying to her, it wasso weird reading because.
In the movie adaptation, I amliterally a background
character.
Like I'm, I watched her walk bythe admissions office hundreds
of times.
And the people that she wastalking about in the space she
(07:25):
was talking about in the roomshe was talking about, I was
very aware of, but I knewnothing of her story.
JR Dawson (07:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (07:32):
So it was this
interesting reminder of like how
we can live in the same space aspeople, but also know nothing
about them.
Hearing you talk about yourexperience with Michigan, again
as like a person who spent a lotof time with you in a lot of
classes with you, had adifferent experience, but also
was completely unaware of yourexperience, which like to a
(07:54):
37-year-old is breaks your brainand makes you sad.
For the 19, 20, 20 1-year-oldwho didn't know how to.
Have a place how, how to likeengage with other humans in that
time in their lives.
You know what I mean?
JR Dawson (08:11):
We were all also
under a lot of stress.
Like we had a lot of classes, alot of things that were expected
of us.
And it was a millennial's worstnightmare where like everything
had to be perfect.
And everything was veryconditional.
Jason Blitman (08:24):
Where we weren't
set up for success.
JR Dawson (08:27):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (08:27):
There's this
interesting concept of when Nera
suddenly is, encounters a livingperson, that Forever might end.
And the idea of forever endingmeans it is not forever.
And that sort of broke my brain.
JR Dawson (08:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (08:51):
What does that
mean to you?
JR Dawson (08:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (08:53):
of what is, what
has forever become if it is no
longer forever?
JR Dawson (08:58):
something very sad.
It, it depends.
It depends.
For me, I think that this book Iwas writing a lot about how much
I missed Chicago.
But also halfway through ridingit, we had to move.
And those were two points in mylife where I really felt like
things were going to continue onand on and on.
Like, I was like, well, ofcourse I'm gonna live in
(09:19):
Chicago.
Of course I'm gonna stay herewith my friends and, you know,
get a job here and do this andthis and this.
But the recession happened whilewe were in undergrad.
I was actually homeless the lastpart of our sophomore year.
Worked and worked to kind ofjust stay like hand to mouth.
The last two years.
And then finally my family waslike, we cannot afford you to be
(09:40):
out there like you are cominghome.
And uh, so it was, uh, I meanlike that's a whole other story
how back up in Omaha, but it wasone of the saddest days of my
life, like packing up myapartment and putting it all in
this truck and driving all theway back to Omaha and just
giving everything up.
And then that kind of tetheredto when we were living in Omaha,
(10:04):
we lived in Omaha for 13 yearslike we had been together.
I actually met Jesse about threeweeks after.
Oh, a month after we graduated.
Jason Blitman (10:14):
Oh my God.
JR Dawson (10:15):
Yeah.
And, uh, we, we first gotengaged about five and a half
months after we graduated.
And then she went to law schooland then we got re-engaged and
got married and all this.
But we had been togetherforever.
Like we had bought a house, wehad these three dogs.
We were like that lesbiancouple.
(10:35):
And, All of a sudden it was justthis place that we, you know,
thought we were going to buryour dogs in the backyard.
Like we, you know, had ourmulberry bush, we had our
favorite window, we had, youknow, all this stuff.
We were in the middle ofrenovating part of downstairs to
be a library.
And we hadn't even like put outthe, the carpet yet, like it was
rolled up.
(10:56):
And then it was just, oh, wehave to go.
So this idea of this, thesethings that you think will
stretch on and on, just all of asudden all these things that you
take for granted are gone.
And sometimes that can be a goodthing, if you're in a bad
situation or you think that yourlife will never change.
And I think that some, some ofwhat Nera is going through is
(11:16):
just kind of like mundane.
And it's exciting that foreveris not forever.
But it also can be sad like herfather is going to pass, like
she is no longer safe.
Um, And how she's understood herhome is no longer how she sees
it or how she's experiencing it.
I,
Jason Blitman (11:36):
yeah.
There's something so comfortingin that forever is not real.
But you are right.
And like, how do we prepare forthat?
And it's, and a big piece of thebook is the concept of with life
comes death And that balance ofhow we just have to deal with
that.
And it's.
(11:56):
Yeah.
Overwhelming and scary and yeah.
And so much of the book too andliterally what she's living in
it's, they, people are comingfrom the world that was, and
they are going to the world tocome and what, and I would argue
(12:17):
that what they're living in isthe present.
JR Dawson (12:20):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (12:21):
Which is hard to
live in.
Why do you think that is?
Why do you think, why?
I think it's a very universalfeeling that we are both harping
on the past and also anxious forthe future.
And it's so hard to live in themoment.
Why is that for
JR Dawson (12:37):
Capitalism, Jason?
No, I don't.
No, I,
Jason Blitman (12:41):
You're not wrong.
JR Dawson (12:43):
I, no, I, I think I
think that there's a lot of hurt
in the past.
There's a lot of nostalgia andalso trauma.
And we're trying to figure outthat puzzle because, sometimes
things don't have an answer, butwe keep questioning and then the
future just seems like, well,this is my hope.
Like this is what I want to havehappen.
(13:04):
Things can be better.
Oh, but what if they were worse?
So like, I think that there'spart of us, that, that has this
instinct of is the bear going toeat me?
Or maybe it'll be a nice sunnyday tomorrow.
And so we're constantlypreparing.
Jason Blitman (13:17):
And also, if the
bear has eaten your neighbor,
JR Dawson (13:19):
yeah.
Jason Blitman (13:20):
then you know
it's possible and You're, you
have a completely legit reasonto fear that,
JR Dawson (13:25):
Yes, exactly.
There's a lot of bears out thereright now.
But yeah.
But yeah, no, I, uh, I thinkthat it's, it's, we don't think
that we deserve the present orit's happening right now, and I
can prepare for the future.
I can heal from the past, and soI have the ability to do
something in the present, and sothat means that I need to go do
something instead of justenjoying it.
Jason Blitman (13:48):
Yeah.
I respect that.
I'm trying to get better atliving in the present.
JR Dawson (13:54):
Me too.
Jason Blitman (13:55):
Yeah.
It's not easy, especially whenlike the present, literally the,
this present, it's hard to livein, So you're sort of thinking
aspirationally for what's tocome.
And yet, yeah, like COVID wasreally hard, but I also, but
like we did our best to make it.
Tolerable.
And I, things like this podcastcame out of COVID and all sorts
(14:18):
of there, there is unfortunatelygood that can come out of
terrible times.
And on one hand I do think I'mthinking about, the good that
can come from whatever the hellis happening right now.
JR Dawson (14:30):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (14:30):
Similarly in the
book, something so novel is a
flower growing out of concrete.
And I think that's such a greatmetaphor for right now, right?
Let's find the flowers.
JR Dawson (14:42):
Yeah.
Yeah, and I mean, that was onething, like that's another thing
that I saw in Chicago when Imoved there was like, I was used
to being in.
What do they call it?
The Driftless region?
Is that I just learned this.
There's an actual, like, namefor this region.
We just called it where theiceberg ended.
But like I lived in an area ofNebraska that was very hilly,
(15:03):
very woodsy, like just youcouldn't see the sky sometimes
because there were so manytrees.
And if you look at Omaha, it'sall under a canopy.
And so going from that toChicago, which is very flat and
doesn't have a lot of natureinside the city itself I you
definitely take note of wherethose flowers are growing still.
(15:24):
And also my grandma was a bigtree grows and Brooklyn fan, so
I put that in there for her.
Jason Blitman (15:30):
Oh, I love that.
Okay.
Completely changing the subject.
There's a quote.
People don't put ketchup onenough things.
JR Dawson (15:39):
yeah.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (15:41):
Do you believe
this?
Is this how you feel?
Are you a ketchup aficionado?
JR Dawson (15:46):
I think, isn't that
one of the dogs that says that?
I wrote this a year ago.
If it was a dog line,
Jason Blitman (15:52):
I am not asking
about the book.
I'm asking about you.
What do you, how do you feelabout ketchup?
JR Dawson (15:57):
so I just think it's,
I think that the ketchup No, no
ketchup on hot dog is just avery Chicagoan thing.
It's just a very, like, it's amicrocosm of the whole
situation, like Sure.
So the reason why Chicagoansdon't put ketchup on their hot
dogs was they thought that thesausage itself should speak for
itself.
That you don't need extra stuffon it to, because people were
(16:19):
putting ketchup on because themeat was subpar.
And they're like our meat isn'tsubpar, so we don't need ketchup
as to which my wife then said,so you put everything else on
there, and it's
Jason Blitman (16:29):
say, Chicago
hotdogs have so much stuff on
it.
JR Dawson (16:32):
So much stuff, and
I'm like, this is Chicago.
There's very specific ways thatyou do things, and it's not
necessarily because it makessense, but it's just like a way
to codify like, and be like, yesI do, I know the secret
handshake.
I know how this
Jason Blitman (16:47):
Do, but are but
ketchup in general, do you put
it on everything?
JR Dawson (16:50):
I put it on hot dogs.
It depends.
Sometimes I'll, I'll put it on,it depends on the mood.
Like, I, I don't, I'm not like ahuge Catchup fan.
Jason Blitman (17:00):
This is like
deeply personal for me is which
is why it's come out.
That's why I'm asking.
'cause I feel I have oppositestrong feelings as whoever,
whatever character said this,
JR Dawson (17:10):
you put ketchup on
Jason Blitman (17:12):
I put ketchup on
nothing
JR Dawson (17:13):
Oh,
Jason Blitman (17:15):
it's like really
good ketchup.
Then I'll maybe use it forfries.
Quote unquote, freshly made,
JR Dawson (17:20):
oh.
Jason Blitman (17:20):
Ketchup, where it
like tastes like tomato sauce.
That to me is so good.
JR Dawson (17:25):
I didn't know there
were like different tiers of
ketchup.
This is
Jason Blitman (17:29):
Yeah, it's not
too sweet.
Not like overly processed.
That for me is
JR Dawson (17:34):
yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
Jason Blitman (17:36):
yeah, otherwise
I'll put, I'll eat fries plain.
JR Dawson (17:41):
Yeah, I put
Jason Blitman (17:42):
I'll eat fries
with mayonnaise, cheese.
But similarly to the hot dogmeat, if a fry is so good and it
has the right crunch and ha likeit's seasoned, what are you
gonna catch it for?
JR Dawson (17:53):
Yeah, exactly.
It's just an extra little thing.
It's,
Jason Blitman (17:57):
You're allowed to
do it.
It's fine.
JR Dawson (17:59):
it's okay.
I don't put, I don't put mayo ona lot of things.
If somebody sneaks mayo on, I'mokay with it, but just like
sound of a Mayo is just.
Jason Blitman (18:09):
The fact that you
just did that is so offensive.
That sound.
JR Dawson (18:13):
It is really bad.
Jason Blitman (18:14):
You're, I know
you're right.
That was impressive too, though.
It sounded very accurate.
JR Dawson (18:20):
Oh, thank you.
It's the all that theaterschool.
Jason Blitman (18:23):
oh God.
Yeah.
That's really funny.
Oh my God.
Drama music comes up so much inthe book.
It is, I think a huge themewhat, which version of this
question do I want to ask you?
Music comes up a lot.
In the book, there's a quote,music is more than sound.
What is music to you?
JR Dawson (18:43):
Oh God.
Music is, I mean, what's a wordthat is ho that means holy, but
it isn't holy.
So I mean, like, it, it's on adifferent level for me.
Like my mom was super musicaland she was like, and I don't
know if I, if I completely agreewith this now, but she was like,
you can take any piece of musicanywhere in the world and no
(19:04):
matter what language people arespeaking or where they grew up,
like they'll know what thatmusic means.
Which I think like, to an extentis true.
I feel, I mean, like, I'm still,I'm still like pondering that
answer.
'cause I think that there's somany different sorts of music
and so many differentbackgrounds.
But anyway, that's a tangent.
But like, it, it seems like it,it, it sings to something
(19:26):
deeper.
And so I definitely like have myown belief system and like, you
know, have a spirituality that,that.
That I hold dear.
And music I think is a part ofthat, um, which was why it was
such a bug to write in a bookbecause it's like, how do you
take the idea and the concept ofmusic and how it makes you feel
(19:46):
and, and put it in somethingthat you can't hear.
Jason Blitman (19:50):
There I, again,
so weird reading this book
because I remember being in thebasement of U-Haul with you
playing the piano.
JR Dawson (20:01):
yeah.
Oh, I still have a recording ofus one night playing a song from
your musical
Jason Blitman (20:09):
What
JR Dawson (20:09):
Hall.
I still have this recording.
The, I can't wait.
Jason Blitman (20:14):
Uhhuh
JR Dawson (20:15):
I still have it.
Some I don't know how itsurvived all these years,
Jason Blitman (20:20):
what?
JR Dawson (20:20):
yeah, I still have
it.
I think I emailed it to somebodyand then it was just sitting in
my email and then it was like, Imiss our little shoe.
Yep.
I still have it.
Jason Blitman (20:30):
Funny.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
I wrote a musical in high schoolthat didn't have a composer.
I like had lyrics and one day wewere sitting in the basement.
Was it Sanctuary
JR Dawson (20:41):
It was Sanctuary.
Yeah.
I
Jason Blitman (20:44):
and yeah, you
just started but putting fingers
to the piano and you were likelet's sing a song.
Let's make it, I can't believethere's a recording.
JR Dawson (20:54):
There is a recording.
And you wanted, so you wanted tosend it to your friend who
played Little Foot and this isall on the recording.
It's, and so we recorded itwhile we were on the phone with
him.
Yeah.
It's the whole thing.
Jason Blitman (21:09):
my God, that's so
funny.
Yeah.
Tommy Decker was the voice oflittle foot that, oh my God, I'm
dying.
That's insane.
See, this is why I asked youabout Don KO's lighters.
'cause
JR Dawson (21:20):
there's so many
things.
that did not like yeah.
No, is, there's so many thingsthat didn't survive, like the
many laptops and moves that I'vehad, but that recording still.
Jason Blitman (21:33):
And so weirdly,
serendipitously enough, I like
thought deeply about that momentreading the book,
JR Dawson (21:42):
Oh wow.
Jason Blitman (21:43):
We're freshmen in
college.
It was a very musical moment.
Whether regardless of what wasto come of that, it was the idea
of sitting in a room, playing apiano, listening to friends,
singing and just like having anice time was really special.
JR Dawson (22:00):
Yeah, it was really
cool.
It was a catchy song.
Jason Blitman (22:05):
There in the book
there is a list of some songs
that are quote unquote, tryingto put a sound to the feeling of
having a soul.
What would some of that, whatwould a song or two be that for
you?
JR Dawson (22:19):
Do I list them?
Because the book here, I'm like,is
Jason Blitman (22:22):
You do,
JR Dawson (22:24):
my English literature
brain is ah, crap.
Which ones are I remember one
Jason Blitman (22:28):
Billie Holiday I
think is one of'em.
Know what I'm, but I are you iswhat you're saying that you
probably wrote the ones thatmake you feel that way?
JR Dawson (22:34):
Yeah, for sure.
What were the other two?
I know one of'em was StrangeFruit, and then I'm trying to, I
don't know.
what page that is.
Jason Blitman (22:41):
Neither do I
should have written the page
JR Dawson (22:43):
I think that's a lot
of songs.
One example that I can think offrom my life is God when I first
met my wife and we were datingand like trying to figure out
what our next steps were gonnabe.
I thought it was too good to betrue.
Like we were just such a goodmatch.
And she just, it felt like, likeshe really understood me and she
(23:06):
really got me.
And so I asked her to listen toa song and let me know what she
thinks of it.
So we were like actually sittingoutside in the parking lot.
And I played her, I played herthe Kingdom Hearts theme to show
her kind of my soul, be like,this is who I am.
And she listened and then sheplayed a song and she played to
(23:29):
Erkin and from, oh, it's fromFinal Fantasy.
It's,
Jason Blitman (23:33):
Oh, funny.
JR Dawson (23:34):
And I was like, oh my
God.
They're two very similar songs.
This would be a very aw momentif you
Jason Blitman (23:39):
I knew.
Okay.
I'm sorry.
That was a, my husband is morefamiliar with the video game
soundtrack genre, so he'llappreciate it.
I'm sorry that went
JR Dawson (23:49):
it's okay.
No.
Zakin is a very much like thissuper beautiful orchestral piece
of music.
And that's kind of like when we,we knew I mean, we knew before
that because we're hopelessromantics, but like we, we
really knew like, okay, this isfor real.
We really do get each other.
And I, I think that like when wehear pieces of music that speak
(24:12):
to us, like it's something aboutthe human condition that we
haven't put words to yet, thatwe're like, yes.
Like, and I think the the oneexample that I can remember from
the book, strange Fruit, likewhen you listen to that song,
the way that she sings it, itisn't just about the musicality
of it, which it is about that,but it's also like the way that
(24:33):
she performs it, the way that ithits you, like it really hits
you.
And there's just somethingmagical and.
Really special about a song likethat.
Jason Blitman (24:43):
Yeah, it's, I
feel like some of what you're
talking about is that there'smusic that puts sound to the
feeling of having a soul, butthere's also music that like
touches your soul and caninteract with your souls and can
express yours.
So I think music can do a lot ofwork for us,
JR Dawson (25:03):
Oh yeah.
Jason Blitman (25:04):
which is so
interesting.
Yeah.
Speaking of music, I'm obsessedthat there is a singing in the
Rain reference in the book.
JR Dawson (25:13):
Is there,
Jason Blitman (25:15):
There is,
JR Dawson (25:16):
see now
Jason Blitman (25:17):
it.
And I love, oh my God, I'm dying
JR Dawson (25:20):
oh, there is the
singing in the room from
Dominic's.
Okay.
Yes.
It's all
Jason Blitman (25:23):
Yes.
Oh my God.
Again, brought completely backto I guess my youth.
I hate that's what it is,
JR Dawson (25:32):
old now.
Jason Blitman (25:32):
I know on one
hand it feels like yesterday, on
the other hand like I
JR Dawson (25:37):
like we're gonna show
up at Frank's like tech class
and talk about fried squirrelstomorrow morning.
It's
Jason Blitman (25:43):
RIP, Frank
Wicked.
JR Dawson (25:45):
Oh, wait, what I knew
about Dawn, I didn't know about
Frank,
Jason Blitman (25:48):
I know.
Yes.
I don't mean to be laughing,obviously,
JR Dawson (25:52):
and this is how I
find out.
Jason Blitman (25:54):
that's why I'm
laughing.
I'm just
JR Dawson (25:55):
Frank would love it.
Jason Blitman (25:56):
Breaking news?
It was like a few years ago now.
Yeah.
JR Dawson (26:00):
my god
Jason Blitman (26:01):
I don't even, I
think I saw a post on maybe
Facebook or something.
I
JR Dawson (26:04):
Okay.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (26:06):
Life
JR Dawson (26:06):
would appreciate it.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (26:08):
know.
The book is about so many sadthings.
It's like hard to talk aboutlike fun uplifting things when
talking about, you know, griefand loss and dying and et
cetera.
But there's something that cameup about generally the concept
of we're all unique and yet noneof us are unique.
We're all these individuals andyet we all share the same.
(26:33):
Traumas and feelings andemotions and whatever.
So what does that mean to you?
What does that feel like to youbeing trying to be your own
person and yet engaging with theworld as we are all one?
Does that make sense?
JR Dawson (26:48):
Yeah.
So I think I take comfort in theidea that we're all kind of
going through the same thing.
I, I think very generationallywhen it comes to this too just
'cause like us millennials justwent through very specific
things at the same time.
And so I feel a lot ofcompassion for people in my
(27:08):
generation.
And like when you meet somebody,if you just think to yourself
like, Hey, we're all coming fromthe same place.
There's somebody out there wholoves this person.
There, there's something in themthat is a special spark that
they're good at, that they wouldwant to talk about.
Like, one thing I really like todo is just like when you meet
(27:28):
somebody, like, say somethingthat you like about their outfit
or whatever, and then they justget like this look on their
face, like, oh, thank you.
And like, you know, it just, itmeans so much.
And we need more of thatconnection in this world.
And so it is, on the other hand,it's really hard when there's
somebody who is super hateful ormaking very bad decisions and
(27:50):
you're like, how did you getthere?
Like, we're supposed to be inthis together.
And I also think that.
The individuality of each personis really special.
And I feel like there's a lot ofthere are a lot of people out
there who would like tohomogenize folks.
And I think that's one reallycool thing about being in the
queer community is pushing backagainst that homo homogenization
(28:16):
And being like, no, this is whoI am and I'm proud of who I am,
and it's okay that this is who Iam.
And finding that individualityand creativity, I think that's
really beautiful.
I,
Jason Blitman (28:26):
Yeah, there is
another quote in the book.
The, there's a question thatgets asked in the book, what
burns and scars do we keep?
And which do we shed when wecan?
And I think that's such a greatquestion and I think really
speaks to some of what you'retalking about because there
(28:46):
there is this sort of concept ofI mean, not to quote RuPaul, but
we're all born naked and therest is drag.
Like we're all, we all sort ofstart at a baseline and then we
sort of, for lack of a betterterm of phrase, collect burns
and scars on our journey.
And that sort of like what makesus who we are.
And so, you know, the idea ofgoing to the beyond and losing
(29:11):
some of those scars, I gotemotional about wanting to keep
my scars.
JR Dawson (29:17):
Oh, Yeah.
And yeah, I think this is,especially in the Jewish
community, that's a, a question.
So some of my background isworking with Holocaust
survivors, um, and in Holocausteducation.
And the way that Holocaustsurvivors have a relationship,
or there's not very many left,had a relationship with their
tattoos is an ongoingconversation in the Jewish
(29:39):
community.
And that there are some peoplewho are like, I made it through
and this doesn't, you know, thisis mine now.
And there are other folks thatare like, I don't wanna see it.
And so one thing when, whenworld building and creating the
afterlife, what is a part of ouridentity that we want to hold
onto, and that is helpful tohold onto for us and what is
(29:59):
something that we don't see aspart of our identity be it like
when it comes to the physicalityof us in life.
And so that, that, goes to whatare our scars and what are our
burns also like, what is adisability like I know that, oh
my God, when Stephen Hawkingsdied and there were all those
pictures of him popping out ofthe chair, like it's just, oh my
(30:20):
God, no.
And so I wanted to make surethat I was making a disability
friendly world and also like aqueer friendly world where the
way that you saw yourself, theway that you felt in your heart
and interacted with yourself,that was what mattered.
Jason Blitman (30:36):
Yeah.
And so in turn, if some of thosescars and burns make, give you
that version of yourself, thenthose are the ones that are the,
that, that are kept, right?
Yeah.
No, it was an interestingthought process for me.
Thinking about trauma from mychildhood.
You talking earlier about someof the things from your youth,
(30:59):
I, on one hand, you're like, ohmy God, if I could change it, I
would.
And yet you can't help but thinkI am the person I am today
because of that.
And so it's that crazydouble-edged sword.
JR Dawson (31:12):
Oh, yeah.
When my, so my grandma who is inthe back of the book when my
grandma passed I was, you know,she had helped raise me.
She was like a second mother, athird parent to me.
And my mom was like, well,maybe, you know, if, if we
hadn't had her help raise you,if you guys weren't so close, it
wouldn't hurt so much right now.
And I'm like, no, I would nevergive that up.
(31:32):
I would do it a thousand timesmore.
And like it, it came in my firstbook too.
I mean, it's minor spoiler forfirst break thing, but there's a
character whose father ismurdered halfway through the
book.
And there is another characterwho has the ability to take that
grief away from her.
Um, and she says, no, let mekeep it, let me have it.
(31:53):
And so that moment really stuckwith me.
And so when we started lookingat what book two was gonna be,
what the next standalone wasgonna be like, I was like, I
wanna do that moment like that,I know I'm taking that with me.
Jason Blitman (32:05):
Yeah, there one
of my notes is goodbyes Must be
sad.
And Nera talking about beingused to endings
JR Dawson (32:17):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (32:18):
It got me
thinking like, what does a
goodbye mean?
And, you know, got me thinkingalso about how we haven't seen
each other in 15 years.
And so did we say goodbye?
And what does goodbye and whatdid that goodbye mean?
And.
Even if we didn't literally saygoodbye, there was a, an ending
of the time that we werespending together, that was its
own
JR Dawson (32:38):
There was the
graduation at the
Jason Blitman (32:39):
That's what I
mean.
There is that metaphoricalgoodbye.
JR Dawson (32:42):
was 15 years ago,
like a couple of weeks ago.
It showed up on Facebook.
I was like, no, stop.
Jason Blitman (32:48):
God.
Devastating.
JR Dawson (32:50):
a terrible day.
Oh my God.
I hated that day.
Oh
Jason Blitman (32:55):
But yeah, I was
just thinking so much about
goodbye and grief and grievingthe people that we were but
also, you know, being gratefulfor those young versions of
ourselves.
And all along these lines,another question that comes up
in the book is do the livingrealize they're alive?
JR Dawson (33:14):
Which is a, it's a
Thornton Wilder.
Shout out.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (33:18):
And like Thornton
Wilder, man.
Knew what he was doing, but
JR Dawson (33:26):
Act
Jason Blitman (33:26):
a question.
And I think that, again, thatlike hearkens back to the living
in the present Past versusfuture thing.
And grief is just, as you say inthe books, steadfast and
merciless Navigating that is sohard.
But again, without it would, youwouldn't wanna take away your
grief because,
JR Dawson (33:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And like you think that it's, Ithink this is something that
it's been, oh my god, how manyyears since my grandmother
passed?
She died September 9th, 2013.
So it's been almost 12 years andit still feels like it still is
as raw as it was the day ithappened.
And like there are days where, Imean, there's different kinds of
(34:07):
grief.
There's, you know, losingsomebody this morning I was, you
know, walking to my desk and Iwent past a bunch of bookshelves
where I have a bunch of stuff onthere and I saw my friend who
passed in 2014, they knittedthis hat that their girlfriend
gave to me after they passed.
(34:28):
And I was just looking at it andI was like, God, I miss you,
man.
Like, you know, I was like and,and that was just this morning,
and they've been gone since Julyof 2014.
So.
11 years now.
Um, so it's just constantlythere.
And, and there's also, you know,the grief of, of our old house
and the grief of of our old lifeand our old friends and stuff.
So yeah, there's definitely,like, we would go through
(34:51):
something in the process ofmoving and then I would go to
the office and just like, writeout how I was feeling about
that.
Like when we had to say goodbyeto our couch.
Which like
Jason Blitman (35:01):
that's legit.
JR Dawson (35:02):
it's it was our ca
like we raised our dogs on that
couch.
Like we would all sit on thatcouch at the end of every day.
And we, it was a great couch andwe had to throw it in the
dumpster'cause it was, my dogshad just ripped it to shreds and
I was like, we only have so muchroom and so I was like, well,
how are we gonna do this lastnight where we're sitting on the
couch like we always do?
And I was like, we're gonnapretend like we're gonna do it
(35:25):
again and we're gonna just enjoythat moment.
And so we sat on the couch forlike a half an hour and it was
really meaningful.
Like, we didn't like saygoodbye, we didn't.
Do a big whole thing about it.
We just enjoyed it and then wetook it out to the dumpster, and
then I went upstairs and I wrotea scene where Nera has to say
goodbye to somebody and doesn'twant to, and I was like this
couch is now this character.
Jason Blitman (35:47):
Well, I mean, And
something else that comes up in
the book is that it the conceptof if you still remember
something, it still exists.
JR Dawson (35:53):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (35:54):
I think a lot of
writers, correct me if I'm
wrong, part of that, part of whythey is to preserve their
legacy.
JR Dawson (36:04):
For me, it's to
preserve my loved one's.
Legacies, I think
Jason Blitman (36:08):
I, I think
that's, I think it's all a part
JR Dawson (36:10):
Oh yeah.
And also yeah, I was, I feltreally alone in Chicago when I
was in my early twenties, likewhen we were in chi in college.
I was going through a lot ofstuff that.
My roommates didn't get that Ididn't feel comfortable sharing
with everybody that I didn'tfeel comfortable sharing with my
professors.
And so like there was a lot oflike me on the l by myself, like
listening to music and writingthe brown line around and
(36:32):
around.
And so being able to write thatand bring an audience in, like,
I know that's not everybody'scuppa or wave coping, but, um,
it was kind of like to preservethat moment.
So I wasn't the only one whowould remember it.
But it also it was to preservelike how much I love my wife.
Like I, there's a lot of my wifeand Nera, like a lot and so I
(36:55):
wrote the book to show her like,this is how I feel about you.
This is how I see you.
And also like my, you know, myuncles in that book and my
grandmother, both of mygrandmothers and my friend and
so it was a way of honoring thedead and also to be like.
Here are all the people that nolonger are interacting with the
world and that you might notknow, but I get to spend a
(37:16):
little bit more time with them.
Jason Blitman (37:18):
Absolutely.
And in 50 years when someonepicks it up off the shelf in a
thrift store, it will live on inthem too.
All these people will live on inthem too, and I think that's
really cool.
There is a diner at thelighthouse
JR Dawson (37:36):
there is.
Jason Blitman (37:37):
where you can get
your favorite meal.
What would your meal be?
JR Dawson (37:43):
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
So probably be Lou Malnati's.
I always like, I, I always saythat my favorite meal is like
double cheeseburgers fromMcDonald's.
Like, this is just a thing thatit's always been like even at
DePaul, like I would treatmyself that Wednesday night.
I would go to that McDonald's onthe corner of Fullerton and I
would get myself a cheeseburger.
(38:03):
So it'd either be cheeseburgerfor McDonald's Or Lou Malnati's.
Jason Blitman (38:07):
I think because I
lived down the street from one
That was a huge part of myschool life.
But then I fell madly in lovewith Giordano's
JR Dawson (38:23):
Jason.
No.
I mean, Yes.
Gi no I, I really love
Jason Blitman (38:31):
and I put ketchup
all
JR Dawson (38:33):
all over the pizza.
Oh, no.
Okay.
So the Giordano's in Chicagoare, were fine, but we, that's
actually where we had our firstengagement party was at the anos
in Edgewater.
But we have a Giordano's here inMinneapolis and I was so
excited.
It was.
Awful.
And then I was visiting myfriend in Bloomington and they
(38:55):
have a giordano's there, and itwas worse than awful.
And I was just like, you gottabe careful about Giordano's.
They franchised it or something.
Jason Blitman (39:02):
There is a moment
that felt like it was you.
Obviously it was obviously youscreaming from the book and it
also could have been me.
And the quote is, I don't knowwho I am anymore.
I used to, I was gonna be ateacher.
I loved theater, and I, it likesmacked me in the face.
(39:25):
It would've smacked me in theface if I didn't know you.
It smacked me in the face,especially because I know you
and I feel that way and becausewe went to school together, like
for so many reasons that spoketo me so deeply.
Can you share a little bit aboutyour coming into yourself at
this point in your life?
JR Dawson (39:40):
Yeah, sure.
I, I was really excited for youto read this book.
Like when my publicist was like,oh, do you know Jason?
I'm like, yes.
And I was like, oh, this is the,this is the Chicago book.
He'll get it.
Um, and so, yeah, no, I thinkthat my relationship with
theater definitely has changedthrough the years.
Um, and that's a different kindof grief.
(40:01):
Like I don't really do theateranymore.
And it's just kind of like whenyou are growing and when you are
going through your life, likethe different parts that you
play and how you identifyyourself and what happens when
an art form that you loved somuch is no longer a part of your
daily life.
And I feel like theater is sucha loving, wonderful type of
(40:26):
magic, but it also hurts so manypeople.
I think that there's a lot oftrauma that comes out of being
in theater and that that traumais perpetuated from generation
to generation and, also, likewhat does it mean to not be
teaching as much?
Like when I was a, classroom,high school drama teacher for
(40:47):
five years, and then you stepaway from that and it's like, oh
my gosh, okay, so now what am I,and so as a, like when you do
art, like when you were likesuper into whatever job that is
that you're doing and then it'snot there anymore, or it didn't
turn out the way you thought itwould what does that, like,
where do you go?
It's just kind of is that momentof oh, okay.
(41:09):
Like guess I'll take up puzzles,but
Jason Blitman (41:12):
For me it's five
years in therapy.
JR Dawson (41:14):
yay so much therapy
and still we pay our student
loans.
But I mean, it's been weird likemoving up to Minneapolis because
like, it's like, well, how did Imake friends in Omaha?
Well, I did theater.
Huh, well, okay, well I don't dothat anymore, so how am I gonna
do it now?
Which is interesting.
Jason Blitman (41:31):
Yeah.
Things the adults around usdidn't talk about enough when we
were kids is how hard it is tomake friends as adults.
JR Dawson (41:37):
Yep yep.
They talked, I remember Franktelling us to marry Rich.
I remember that part.
Jason Blitman (41:43):
Oh my god.
The little pearls of wisdom.
And thank you for sharing all ofthat.
I think it's, it's hard, it'shard to grieve who we once were
and what we loved and, and yetsimilar to, you know, all of
what we've been talking about.
It doesn't mean that thosepieces of us can't cycle back
around or that we lose thosepieces of us because they, A,
(42:03):
are our scars.
And B, because we remember them,they still live on
JR Dawson (42:10):
and I also think
like, when it comes to why it
hurts so much, like when you letgo of an art form or let go of
an identity, is because I knowlike in the, in the teaching
world and in the theater world,like there's this pu this push
that like, well, you either makeit or you don't make it.
If you don't make it, you're afailure.
And it's like, that's not truethough.
Like you can decide to step backat any time and that does not
(42:34):
make you a failure.
And so that, that mindset thoughis a very millennial mindset.
And it, it gets your, the claw,your claws under, so
Jason Blitman (42:44):
that my biggest
takeaway from going to a
conservatory theater programwhere I was where, our
department was treated as theredheaded stepchild is you can
give me 20 minutes and twonickels and I'll make something
happen.
JR Dawson (42:58):
amazing.
All you need is maybe somebodyin the audience.
Arguably you need an audience
Jason Blitman (43:03):
Or whatever it
is.
It's oh, you want, you need thisthing to come to be great.
It doesn't matter like that.
JR Dawson (43:10):
my wedding was
amazing and
Jason Blitman (43:12):
Yes.
JR Dawson (43:12):
Cheap.
'cause I dreamed on a budget.
I was like, we got this.
Jason Blitman (43:17):
Yes.
Us too.
Like taco truck was dinner
JR Dawson (43:21):
Yes.
Jason Blitman (43:21):
it was creative.
It was
JR Dawson (43:24):
Did you end up
directing and stage managing
your wedding too?
Jason Blitman (43:27):
Literally.
Yes.
We had a cabaret performance.
There was literally a 30 minuteperformance
JR Dawson (43:33):
Oh my god, I love
that.
Oh, that's so
Jason Blitman (43:35):
friends singing
Steve car, like de designed the
set.
JR Dawson (43:41):
I love it.
Jason Blitman (43:42):
Yeah.
Oh my
JR Dawson (43:43):
that's so cool.
Jason Blitman (43:44):
Okay.
In our last few minutes togetherthere some my favorite, I think
overall takeaway from the book,which you've sort of touched on.
That I'm just curious to hearyour feelings about is the
difference between being aliveand living?
JR Dawson (44:01):
Yeah, I think that
it's really easy to disassociate
sometimes and to go into the,what do you call it, like the
pattern of how each of the daysare going to work and take
forever for granted.
And, uh, I think that you don'tknow when something is going to
go away, which is very scary,but it also makes it really
(44:23):
special.
And yeah this is a tangent, butI remember in 2022, so a year
before we moved, I didn't knowwe were moving.
I started doing that one seconda day thing, like the, where you
take a second of.
Of footage.
video.
Yeah.
I almost said of film.
No, a video
Jason Blitman (44:41):
I would've
understood what you were talking
about.
JR Dawson (44:43):
And, but like, I was
like, God, my life is so boring.
Like, I remember like takingvideo every day and just being
like here are my dogs and here'smy kitchen and here's my car,
and you know, here's us workingout at the J and here's this.
And a year later I went back andI looked at it and I'm like, all
of that is gone.
I took all of it for granted.
I thought it was so boring.
(45:04):
And now it's this like relic.
Which is, I mean, going back tous playing piano that night in
sanctuary hall, like, it, itwould've been so easy for that,
that recording to get lost.
It was just, you know, like thislittle goofy moment.
And then like, I found it and Iwas listening to it and I'm
like, oh my God.
Like this, all of this is gone.
(45:25):
That piano was like the bestpiano.
And I'm like, that moment isgone.
Like The people have moved onand the, the place is no longer
ours.
And, and it's just like, wow.
Like everything that you thinkis just hum to dumb is maybe not
gonna be here tomorrow,especially the way things are
going.
So I think it's important to notbe scared of that, but also be
(45:48):
like, wow, this is superspecial.
Like I don't have to be in themost interesting place in the
world doing the most interestingthing for it to be interesting.
Jason Blitman (45:57):
One of my
favorite Stephen Sondheim lyrics
from Into the Woods is if lifewere only moments, then you'd
never know you had one.
JR Dawson (46:05):
yeah.
Jason Blitman (46:06):
And so on one
hand, it can't just be this
endless parade of fabulousthings, because then they're not
fabulous anymore.
They're just normal,
JR Dawson (46:16):
And you're tired.
I backpacked through Europe fora month and I was done.
I got to Scotland and I waslike, oh my God, let me go home.
Jason Blitman (46:23):
Yes, exactly.
And I think the, there, the bookaddresses so many things,
obviously about grief and lossand memory and all sorts of
things that we've talked adnauseum about in this whole
chunk of time.
But I find it so interesting,exciting, special that I get to
(46:50):
talk to you about it because,for a number of reasons.
Because that part of my life Ithink, felt gone to me, right?
And like, you have memories ofit, and I have memories of you
and you have memories of me.
And, and so that's very special.
But also, hearing even just thetiniest bits of insight.
That you're sharing that Ididn't even know about when we
(47:14):
quote unquote knew each other, Ithink opens up so much and
expresses so much.
And I didn't think you weregonna want to do this
JR Dawson (47:25):
Oh my goodness.
No.
Jason Blitman (47:28):
because I was
like, I don't know that Jenny
likes me.
I don't know that she'd wannaremember this time of her life.
And so I think there's thisinteresting element of like the
story that I had in my own headand, and.
My perception of time and, andwhat I created and versus what
you were actually living andwhat you were living through.
(47:50):
And, you know, reflecting on thesort of friend that you can be
at a time in a life and that youdon't realize you were or
weren't at a time in someone'slife.
And I don't know, it was alljust very interesting and I was
thrilled that it was somethingyou wanted to do and I was
thrilled to talk to you and toread the book.
And so, yeah, I think there'slike, all the combination of all
of these things is just sospecial to me because there's
(48:14):
it's proving the point of thebook.
JR Dawson (48:16):
Yeah.
And you know, I was superexcited and, and I think that
this is, it is a really specialthing that's this book that,
like you, you reached out about.
I'm like, oh my God, yes.
Like if anybody's gonna get it,you're gonna get it.
And like.
I know we've talked a lot aboutme, but I'm like, well, what was
going on in your life?
You know?
'cause like, like we we were inthe same graduating class, we
(48:38):
were friends.
But I don't know if like we everrode the L and had like a, a
deep conversation like, Hey, Iam homeless.
So like, Hey, you know, I'mgoing through this.
And so it's, I mean, I, I have alot of compassion for those two
kids.
Like we were going through hell.
It was a fun hell, but it wasstill
Jason Blitman (48:58):
sure.
JR Dawson (48:59):
And like you just
always had this like, creativity
just like pouncing out of youand like, you were like, okay, I
have this idea to do this.
I have this idea to do that.
You know?
And like that was, that wasalways really ad admire.
I admired it.
I think of the admir rating,admir rising.
Jason Blitman (49:14):
Thank you.
I ated you a lot too.
And it's interesting, I wasliterally talking about this in
therapy yesterday, but thinkingabout, moving in with my college
boyfriend at 19,
JR Dawson (49:27):
Oh yeah, we watched
the Tony's there.
Oh, that's right.
And then Patrick moved in.
Okay.
This is all coming back.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (49:35):
but I'm but I was
like, oh, I was trying to
project this life of normalcythat I didn't have in my own
childhood, and I thought I couldtotally do it at 19.
And then of course, when Johnand I broke up and it like, you
break up with someone thatyou're, that you spend every
single class
JR Dawson (49:50):
Oh my God.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (49:51):
I don't, there, I
don't wanna say there were party
lines, but it's, you havestronger relationships with
different people.
So it was just it's such ainteresting, complicated time in
one's life when you look back onit and.
JR Dawson (50:03):
And see, like my
19-year-old self was like Jason
lived next to Disney World as akid, so clearly his life was
perfect.
Jason Blitman (50:09):
God.
Yeah.
No, but you're right.
That's, it's our perceptions ofthose around us, it's and the
perceptions that we want peopleto have of us are different
things too.
JR Dawson (50:22):
And the perceptions
that we're scared that people
have of us, like that wasanother big thing that I was
dealing with at that, at thatage.
I think like after college too,it's just like, how do, how is
one perceived?
So that's, that's rough too.
Sometimes we, we, write our ownnarratives and they make a set
yeah.
Jason Blitman (50:41):
But what's
interesting is that, you can
write your own narrative as muchas you want.
You put it out into the world,and it's gonna be received
however it's
JR Dawson (50:50):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jason Blitman (50:51):
That has taken a
long time to learn.
And so I do my best to be mymost authentic self as most
often as I can.
And people will either like theflavor or not.
And, And that's sort of it, youknow,
JR Dawson (51:07):
and it's important to
like be the flavor that you are
because like, I think I wentthrough a people pleasing stage
at one point post-college whereI was like, oh my God, I'm gonna
do everything for everyone andbe everything that everyone
wants me to be.
And people will, I like, youeither have to keep it up or,
and start writing a book thatyou don't wanna write
(51:30):
metaphorically.
Or like, you finally are justlike one day, like, this isn't
me.
And then everybody's like, oh, Idon't like this genre.
So it's, I think it's reallyimportant to be authentic.
Jason Blitman (51:40):
Yeah.
Or it's a, oh, I.
Like this genre too,
JR Dawson (51:46):
Yep.
Jason Blitman (51:46):
right?
And you're like, oh, you do.
JR Dawson (51:49):
yeah, you gotta find
the other fantasy readers.
Jason Blitman (51:51):
Yes, exactly.
Or even if you don't lovefantasy, it's okay.
There's a lot of themes that youcould find in this fantasy book.
The lighthouse at the edge ofthe world, which we are reading
at the end of the world
JR Dawson (52:04):
at the end of the
world.
Yeah, it's been weird promotingbooks while this is going on.
It's super great.
Jason Blitman (52:10):
Yeah.
But I am so grateful that youare here and this book is, it
has a beating heart of Chicago,and it gave me a lot of feelings
and I'm excited for everyone toread it.
And it comes out today TheLighthouse at the Edge of the
World by JR.
Dawson.
Go buy it wherever you get yourbooks.
(52:30):
And thank you so much for beinghere.
JR Dawson (52:32):
Thanks for having me.
Harper! (52:34):
Guest Gay Reader time!
Jason Blitman (52:37):
I'm obsessed at
how well dressed you are.
You're matching your background.
Jonathan Capehart (52:42):
accident.
I am so sorry.
Jason Blitman (52:45):
No it's okay.
It makes it easier to put you inthe tropical paradise that I do
for all my guests in post.
We're here to talk books.
How fabulous.
Jonathan Capehart, welcome toGay's Reading.
Thank you for, for being myguest gay reader today.
Jonathan Capehart (53:01):
Oh, thank
you.
The look, the honor is mine.
Jason Blitman (53:05):
And listening to
your book reading has been on
part of your journey from thebeginning.
Jonathan Capehart (53:12):
Yes.
My mother said to me fromearliest memory was we would go
to Center Mall, usually in NewJersey, and she would say.
I am not going into toy stores.
Don't even ask, I'm not buyingyou anything.
But we go into a bookstore,which my mother went to a book,
(53:32):
the bookstore, every time wewent to the mall, Barnes and
Noble and and she said, but ifwe're in the bookstore, any book
you want, I'll get it.
And so I would come out of therewith loads of books as I grew
older from Mother Goose all theway to Agatha Christi when I was
older.
Jason Blitman (53:51):
Yeah.
And what did you say?
Medical books.
You had all sorts of thingsaround you.
No.
You took,
Jonathan Capehart (53:59):
I'm
Jason Blitman (54:00):
and I get maybe
at home.
You weren't getting those atBarnes and Noble, but you were
like.
You had all sorts of booksaround
Jonathan Capehart (54:05):
No.
That's, and down south at mygrandparents there was this
medical book with the plasticoverlays.
The young people listening tothis right now, they're like,
what the hell is he talkingabout?
What's a book?
What's plastic overlays?
There's this page where you'dhave a primary graphic and then
you'd have these plasticoverlays that would fill in.
(54:26):
Various parts of the picture.
And so I was fascinated by that.
But the book that I am, I mostcherished and it, I'm still
kicking myself 50 years laterthat I did not take it with me.
It was a history book that mygrandparents had in their home.
It, and this is where myfascination with Ancient Rome
(54:49):
came in and this history book.
Jason ended at World War I.
It ended at World War I, so theOttoman Empire and everything.
It was with maps and stuff.
I loved that book, loved it, anddidn't have the presence of mind
to steal it from mygrandparents.
Jason Blitman (55:11):
you were eight.
It's fine.
Forgive him.
That's honestly, I'm stuck onthe fact that you probably like
very clearly know where yourspleen is because of the plastic
overlays
Jonathan Capehart (55:24):
When I was
eight, I did, I have no idea.
I'm assume, I assume I stillhave since I've had no
surgeries.
But you,
Jason Blitman (55:32):
because you're,
I'm always like, anytime I have
a little pain in my abdomen,you're, I'm Googling.
What side is my appendix on?
Where's my append?
Jonathan Capehart (55:42):
Me too.
I was like, wait is it about toblow up?
Jason Blitman (55:45):
But if you still
had those plastic overlays, Then
you would know.
Jonathan Capehart (55:50):
I would,
Jason Blitman (55:51):
I know.
Oh my
Jonathan Capehart (55:52):
Old
technology
Jason Blitman (55:54):
okay as my guest,
gay reader, what are you reading
now?
I assume you have things on yournightstand.
Jonathan Capehart (56:00):
So many
things.
Jason Blitman (56:01):
Yeah.
Jonathan Capehart (56:02):
so many
things, but the primary book I'm
reading, I actually have itright next to me, is Lorne, the
Man who invented Saturday NightLive by Susan Morrison.
I'm doing a book event with herin Washington in the fall which
I was already reading the bookand then the request came in.
(56:24):
But it's fascinating becauseit's two books.
It's two dramatic stories toldin one one book.
So one storyline is basicallyhow Saturday Night Live gets
made.
One section is called Monday andit's all about, it starts with
(56:48):
the it starts.
Yeah, it's in parts.
So part one is Monday, part twois Tuesday, and so part one
Monday we.
I think it's Jonah.
What's that?
I, so that I have to flipthrough the pages, but it's a
guy who's hosted the show manytimes and we walk with him from
day one coming in to get readyfor the show.
(57:11):
That will be on Saturday, butthis is a Monday and how it all
works.
And so you go through theopening meetings and the
conversations that are had andmusical guest conversations, the
writers, you get into how theyall interact.
And then, and the second part ofeach chapter is then Lorne
(57:34):
Michael's life.
And so you get, so Mondaystarted the show planning of the
show Monday, the beginning oflike, where does Lorne Michaels
come from, his upbringing, whohis parents are, how did he get
into show business?
And so you are reading these twostories beautifully at the same
(57:54):
time.
It's really.
Jason Blitman (57:57):
Monday of his
life.
Jonathan Capehart (57:58):
It's really
well done.
And I, when I read books, Iunderline, I take notes and they
are, they surprisingly, to meanyway, there are lots of sort
of Lorne Michael lessons.
come through in, in, in thetelling of his story.
(58:18):
And I will finish it before wedo this event, it was Lauren
O'Donnell, my M MSN M-S-N-B-Ccolleague who told me that I, he
told me that he told everyone at30 Rock at M-S-N-B-C that they
needed to read this book inorder to understand 30 rock.
And how it works because it's amental, it's a mentality
(58:42):
between, as he described it tome, the people who wear makeup
and the people who don't,
Jason Blitman (58:49):
Hmm.
Jonathan Capehart (58:49):
And how the
people who don't wear makeup
think that they can do what thepeople of makeup do, and both
sides don't under reallyunderstand the other,
Jason Blitman (59:01):
Hmm.
Jonathan Capehart (59:01):
But each side
thinks that they know better.
And l Michaels is the one whowalks that tightrope
Jason Blitman (59:11):
Interesting.
And how fascinating for you tobe reading this now at this
point in your career after 30Rock as an institution being so
important to your journey.
Jonathan Capehart (59:25):
Yeah.
It's that building and what'sgonna be later this fall we
leave M-S-N-B-C leaves.
That Art Deco Palace on between49th and 50th.
Fifth and sixth avenues in NewYork.
Jason Blitman (59:39):
Are you gonna
miss the Magnolia Bakery the
most?
Jonathan Capehart (59:43):
oh no, Jason,
please.
No Magnolia Bakery.
Jason Blitman (59:48):
Where do you get
your banana pudding?
Jonathan Capehart (59:50):
I don't, no,
no Banana pudding.
When I, if I get cupcakes, if Iget
Jason Blitman (59:56):
Oh no, I do not
like their cupcake.
Jonathan Capehart (59:58):
Okay, thank
you.
Jason Blitman (59:59):
where do you get
them from?
Jonathan Capehart (01:00:01):
because those
cupcakes.
Jason Blitman (01:00:02):
No.
No.
Jonathan Capehart (01:00:04):
the best cup,
the best cupcakes come from
baked and wired here inWashington DC
Jason Blitman (01:00:12):
Oh.
If you're in New York City, youcan't get them there, but baked
and
Jonathan Capehart (01:00:15):
No, I know.
Yeah.
Baked and wired.
They're good.
There is a better cake tofrosting ratio.
Because I think the problem withMagnolia is like the frosting.
It's, like cloud high and thenthe cake is like that.
Jason Blitman (01:00:32):
Okay.
Jonathan Capehart (01:00:33):
thick.
Jason Blitman (01:00:34):
Here is my hot
take on how to eat a cupcake To
help with this.
Jonathan Capehart (01:00:41):
Okay.
Jason Blitman (01:00:42):
You pull off the
bottom and you put it on the
top.
you eat it like a sandwich
Jonathan Capehart (01:00:48):
Oh.
Jason Blitman (01:00:48):
the ratio.
Jonathan Capehart (01:00:50):
I see.
But, and I get that, and that'sgreat.
For those of you who like, allthat frosting
Jason Blitman (01:00:57):
You're right,
it's still too much.
Jonathan Capehart (01:00:59):
it's oh my
God, my teeth are screaming.
It's so I usually slice offthree quarters of the frosting.
To me, for me, it's the cake.
Like
Jason Blitman (01:01:08):
Yeah, you're
talking to a person who eats
pancakes.
I don't eat pancakes all thetime, but who eats pancakes
without syrup?
Jonathan Capehart (01:01:15):
that's wrong.
That's wrong.
You know what?
Where's Geneva?
You're violating herconventions.
Jason Blitman (01:01:21):
so nice to meet
you.
Have a great rest of your day.
Are you a, are you an SNL fan?
Jonathan Capehart (01:01:27):
I am.
I've been watching it since myearly teens when it was Belushi
and Jane Carton.
All the people that they, it isfascinating in Lorne to read
about all those people.
How, why they were chosen Andthen how stardom really impacted
(01:01:47):
how the show was made and howthey interacted with each other.
And I didn't realize that JaneCarton was chosen because she
looked like, a regular middleclass white housewife.
Of Saturday Night Live was aboutpulling in, basically pulling in
(01:02:09):
the middle.
Jason Blitman (01:02:10):
Yeah so they
wanted people who looked like
someone from the Midwest, fromMiddle America to watch.
They wanna see themselves on tv.
Jonathan Capehart (01:02:18):
And so that
makes casting, after reading
that.
Now I'm going back and thinking,oh, ah, that's why.
That's why she's picked, that'swhy she's picked.
Oh, that's why she's picked.
Glad she's funny.
Jason Blitman (01:02:33):
Yeah, and really
you like think back on who some
of these what some of these castlooked like and they all could
have been your neighbor.
They didn't necessarily looklike glamorous stars.
Jonathan Capehart (01:02:43):
right.
They look like regular oldfolks.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (01:02:47):
Oh, fun.
Going back to your youth is, doyou remember a book that had a
huge impact on you as a kid?
That was, that's maybe like anovel That wasn't the history
book.
Jonathan Capehart (01:02:58):
I really
loved Agatha Christie books.
There was Death on the Nile thatI really loved.
There was, and then there werenone.
Which was really fun.
I just loved, just, no punintended, the mystery of it all.
You've got the big scene setterand then you're reading the, all
(01:03:21):
the conversation and you'regetting, and you think, I think
I know.
I think I know who did it, or Ithink I know what's happening.
And then, like Zos.
Wait, what?
Oh, how did I miss that?
How did I miss that?
But in, in reading those booksthough, it is about great
storytelling, but looking backon it, it's telling you,
(01:03:46):
particularly as a kid, to payattention to detail, that there
are things written particularlyin a book, but I also pick up on
this in movies, things that seemlike that's an errant
observation.
Or that why?
Why did they show us that with acloseup?
(01:04:07):
What is that for?
And now I'm like.
Oh, there's this errandobservation, like what do I care
the color of her stockings?
Oh, okay.
Duly noted.
And let's see where that pops upagain later.
Actually, Jason, you mention Ishould pull out one of those,
'cause I still have them, one ofmy Agatha Christie books and
(01:04:27):
just read it with adult eyes.
Four or five decades later, fourdecades later.
Jason Blitman (01:04:35):
of course.
Jonathan Capehart (01:04:35):
much I up
Jason Blitman (01:04:36):
Okay.
Hot take, maybe.
Controversial.
Did it translate into murder?
She wrote?
Jonathan Capehart (01:04:42):
Oh, I only
watched it murder she wrote
maybe one season,
Jason Blitman (01:04:48):
Interesting.
Jonathan Capehart (01:04:48):
but she did
remind me a lot of Agatha
Christie.
Jason Blitman (01:04:53):
It's, I think
it's a similar tone.
Jonathan Capehart (01:04:56):
Yeah, Angela
Lansbury reminds Remind, when I
watched Murder She Wrote was avisual interpretation for me of
Ms.
Marvel.
Jason Blitman (01:05:05):
Yes.
I
Jonathan Capehart (01:05:06):
but someone
had an interesting hot take on.
The Angela Lansbury character inMurder, she wrote that I saw on
social media like a year or soago,
Jason Blitman (01:05:17):
Huh.
Jonathan Capehart (01:05:18):
where they
like, they're like, hear me out.
How?
How is she not a serial killer?
And then they walked through allthe steps, like she's the one
who finds the body, she's theone who does all these things.
And you read that and you'relike, oh.
Oh my God.
I somehow now feel unclean.
Jason Blitman (01:05:40):
Meanwhile, I, you
were the one who just said
someone on social media and youalso said, I didn't really love
murder.
She wrote, I maybe watched oneseason, so maybe it was you who
decided this.
Jonathan Capehart (01:05:55):
No, it wasn't
me.
I swear.
I swear.
But I did.
I did just watch one season andI liked it, but I guess maybe I
got older and I moved on
Jason Blitman (01:06:02):
Totally.
Totally.
Jonathan Capehart (01:06:03):
Dynasty?
Jason Blitman (01:06:05):
Okay, we have to
talk about your book, but
speaking of details that arepicked up and things that I,
have to ask you that comes up inyour book and I need to know who
would you have voted for?
Marsha or Greg?
Jonathan Capehart (01:06:19):
Oh that's an,
that is an interesting question
because.
the one hand, I like them bothon the one hand and you're, this
is not gonna be a surprise toyou.
Greg was cute,
Jason Blitman (01:06:35):
Yeah.
Jonathan Capehart (01:06:36):
he was smart,
nice, like a genuinely nice
person as a character on theshow.
Jason Blitman (01:06:42):
Yeah.
Jonathan Capehart (01:06:43):
But then
Marsha was glam and smart.
Kind of nice, even though shebullied the hell outta Jan.
And so I think I probablywould've gone to the voting
booth or with a piece of paperand I probably would've voted
for Greg.
Jason Blitman (01:07:04):
Oh, but you
would've told people you voted
for Marsha,
Jonathan Capehart (01:07:07):
No, I
wouldn't have done that.
I would not have done that.
No.
If I make the vote, if I'm gonnatell you who I voted for, I will
tell you who I voted for,whether they won or lost.
Jason Blitman (01:07:17):
Alright.
Interesting.
Okay.
Okay, so your book yet, here Iam, lessons from a Black Man's
Search for Home Out Now whereverbooks are sold.
What does home mean to you?
Jonathan Capehart (01:07:31):
It wasn't
until I was writing the last
chapter, That, and literally inthe last couple of hours.
Of writing the last chapter thatit hit me where I write in
there, where I talk about howDarren Walker, Joe Versace,
(01:07:52):
Karen Finney, they are all hometo me and then I think I write
that word home I realize comesup a lot through the book.
It was in that moment that Irealized, oh, wait a minute.
Home, and that's when I got intothe whole riff about home can be
(01:08:12):
anything.
It could be a person, it couldbe a place, it could be a thing
that the person, the place, orthe thing that makes you feel
the most you, the mostcomfortable, the most safe, the
most.
Especially if it's people andparticularly a place where you
feel like your shoulders aredown, you can be yourself, you
(01:08:37):
are your true, authentic self inthese places or with these
people or around these things.
And when you are at home, that'swhen you feel your safest and
you're most secure.
And so in, thinking back.
About home.
(01:08:57):
That's where I think the sort ofsubtitle, lessons from my search
for home, like from thebeginning all the way to the
end, and it says it's a searchthat doesn't, it doesn't stop.
Maybe you collect more homes asyou get older.
Jason Blitman (01:09:15):
Where did the
book.
Come from for you at this pointin your life?
Jonathan Capehart (01:09:20):
I had the
stories about down south, my
summers down south in my headforever, and when Trump was
elected the first time.
I decided I need to get off thismerry-go-round.
'cause my job is in the news, soI had to pay attention.
Then I had to get off themerry-go-round one weekend in
(01:09:40):
2017.
So I decided this is the weekendI'm gonna sit down and get these
stories out of my head.
And so I just started, I satdown and I just started writing
and.
I spent all weekend writing.
I love writing and so the factthat I was in it and I was in
the groove and I had my music onand I had a movie on and I'm a
(01:10:02):
lunatic when I write.
So I had all
Jason Blitman (01:10:05):
to?
Jonathan Capehart (01:10:06):
at that time
probably a playlist that I could
look up'cause I date them.
Jason Blitman (01:10:13):
Oh
Jonathan Capehart (01:10:13):
So and I'm
writing writing, and the weekend
is over and I think I printed itout and I gave it to my husband
to read, and then I sent it to abunch of friends and I asked
him, what do you think?
And three people in particular,Tamron Hall, joy Reed, April
Ryan, and they all said to me,oh my God, this is incredible.
(01:10:34):
Keep going.
Keep going.
And especially April Ryan wasthe person who said every time
she saw me, how's it going?
How's it going?
Keep going.
Your story needs to be outthere.
It needs to be told.
Do you have an agent yet?
She said she kept pushing.
And as I was writing, I wentback to, my, my touchstones in
(01:10:58):
terms of authors.
And their impact on me when Iread their books.
Catherine Graham's book,personal History was incredible
because here's this woman, anincredibly powerful woman, the
most powerful woman injournalism at the time as the
owner and publisher of TheWashington Post, and also one of
the most powerful women inAmerican politics by virtue of
(01:11:22):
that position.
And here she writes this bookwhere she is.
Open, honest, vulnerable abouther insecurities, her fraught
relationship with her motherwhat it was like when her
husband died, and then she hadto run the paper, the, what was
happening during Watergate andquestioning whether she was
doing the right thing andWatergate or the Pentagon
(01:11:44):
Papers.
And I thought one, just as areader, it was wonderful to see
a person of that stature.
Put themselves out there foreveryone to see
Jason Blitman (01:11:56):
Yeah,
Jonathan Capehart (01:11:57):
and then
fast.
Jason Blitman (01:11:58):
is important.
Jonathan Capehart (01:11:59):
Yes.
And then, and how many people ofthat stature don't allow
themselves to be vulnerable?
They put out books that arejust, Ooh, yawn, fast forward 20
years, and Charles Blow writes,fire Shut up in my Bones again.
Open, honest, raw,introspective.
(01:12:19):
And after reading his book, Irealized I understood what was
driving the power behind hiscolumns for the New York Times.
Like I understood where thatfinally, where that was coming
from.
And so between these two people,Catherine Graham on this side,
Charles Blow on this side,they're, they are literally the
(01:12:42):
comp opposites of each other.
Then my friend Richie Jacksonwho wrote day
Jason Blitman (01:12:48):
guest, gay reader
on gay's reading.
Jonathan Capehart (01:12:50):
ah, shoot, I
shoulda have reached out to him
to find out who is this Jason?
As I was writing we were stayingwith them in Richie and Jordan
in East Hampton.
And he said, he was asking mehow the writing was going, and
then he said to me, Jonathan,remember, put yourself on every
page.
Just make sure that you putyourself on every page for the
(01:13:12):
reader to see you.
And so between those three, as Iwas writing, especially, once I
had the book contract and thedeadlines staring at, having
these three muses, if you were
Jason Blitman (01:13:26):
Yeah.
Jonathan Capehart (01:13:26):
constantly,
in my ears as I was writing, was
terrific because.
Why write a memoir if you arenot going to be as forthcoming
as you can to the reader,especially if your goal is to be
(01:13:49):
understood better than maybewhat your public persona or the
perception really of you is.
Jason Blitman (01:13:58):
Three things in
particular that stuck out to me.
I don't know that I've evertalked to anyone else publicly
who, I didn't tell this to myhusband until probably almost 10
years into our relationship, butI also got under a thousand on
my SATs.
And that was like a big point ofshame for me.
(01:14:21):
And so to as simple as hearingsomeone, in a position like
yours say, I didn't do well'cause I don't test well.
And, that's, that was one thing.
And then of course.
The book is inherently gaybecause you're gay.
However, showing moments ofcomparing yourself to the movie
showgirl, or sharing that yousaw Joan Rivers on your 18th
(01:14:46):
birthday, like it doesn't reallyget gayer than that
Jonathan Capehart (01:14:49):
Oh,
Jason Blitman (01:14:49):
can,
Jonathan Capehart (01:14:50):
there's one
more.
There's one more reference
Jason Blitman (01:14:53):
what am I
missing?
Jonathan Capehart (01:14:54):
The editor
cut out and I was like, oh, hell
no.
And I put it back
Jason Blitman (01:14:59):
Which one?
Jonathan Capehart (01:15:00):
when my
mother and soon to be
stepfather, they announced to methat they're getting married.
And I walked out and then I cameback and I said, you're gonna
have to find a private schoolfor me to go to.
I'm not going to public schoolin Newark.
I'll get beat up and then I turnwith Dominique Devereux flair
(01:15:20):
out of the room.
Jason Blitman (01:15:23):
Yes.
Jonathan Capehart (01:15:23):
more.
One more gate.
Jason Blitman (01:15:26):
Exactly.
So those little nuggets, talkingabout Richie's advice of putting
yourself on the page, I thinkthat those are great examples of
that alone.
Something that I have beenasking all of my guest gay
readers that have had a varyingdegree of responses based on
age.
You answer in the book l.
(01:15:49):
Now, so I have been asking ifin, in an effort to amplify
important people around us, ifwe were to die, if you were to
die tomorrow, who would you askto delete the search history on
your computer?
And you answer this in the book,in, in a roundabout way.
Jonathan Capehart (01:16:09):
Because you
know when this particular story
you're talking about happened,we didn't have a search history.
Jason Blitman (01:16:17):
no.
This was the real lifeequivalent of search history, I
was dying at this moment in thestory.
You don't have, let's, we'll letour listeners go check out the
book to hear the story, but canyou talk about this friend and
amplify why they're important toyou and why you would choose
them?
Jonathan Capehart (01:16:34):
This is
chapter eight with the chapter
title is Hide Your Porn and soI've already talked about how my
mother announced to me that shewas getting remarried and
stepfather.
Now, fast forward six years,I've already graduated college.
Carleton College.
I stayed a year to be assistantto the president, and it was
(01:16:54):
that winter.
It was during winter break, sothis was December of nine, of
89.
And my mother and I, we talk andshe says so yeah, I think.
I think I'm gonna be moving outbefore the, by the end of the
week.
This is like a Monday orTuesday, and I was like, oh,
great.
And okay, I hang up the phoneand then I call my junior year
(01:17:19):
roommate Ricardo, who li alsowas from New Jersey, from
Teaneck, New Jersey, and Icalled him with an urgent
mission.
He had to go rescue
Jason Blitman (01:17:30):
Delete the search
history,
Jonathan Capehart (01:17:31):
to delete the
search history in an analog way.
Jason Blitman (01:17:35):
Yes.
Are we still in touch withRicardo?
Jonathan Capehart (01:17:37):
I have not
talked to Ricardo in or been in
touch with him in a few years,but I need to email him and say
Hey, where can I send you anautograph copy of the book?
Because
Jason Blitman (01:17:48):
a big old, thank
you.
Jonathan Capehart (01:17:49):
Maybe you've
already heard that you are part
of this book.
But yeah, so that's why whenpeople read the story, it's.
It is between the down southstuff that I the stories that I
wrote, the Ricardo Porn recoverystory is another story that I
(01:18:10):
wrote down that weekend.
'cause it was like, this is, Ineed to get this down.
This must be in whatever versionof the book there is.
It must be there.
It's just to
Jason Blitman (01:18:21):
So good.
Jonathan Capehart (01:18:22):
Do you know
how many people have come up to
me at book signings?
And have said to me, I had thesame experience.
I had to go rescue some, mybrother's porn stash or.
Jason Blitman (01:18:35):
Yeah.
I unfortunately had a stashunderneath my mattress and one
day it was gone.
So I just, I know that, youknow, parent changing the sheets
or something probably saw, sothat, that
Jonathan Capehart (01:18:55):
get a paper
cut hitting with oh what is
that?
Jason Blitman (01:18:58):
Yes, exactly.
Just a little trauma, it's fine.
Nothing, not like the world isending, so it's fine.
Jonathan Capehart (01:19:06):
adults still.
Jason Blitman (01:19:07):
Exactly.
Jonathan Capehart, what apleasure.
Jonathan Capehart (01:19:12):
What we're,
we're all done.
Jason Blitman (01:19:14):
I've kept you for
so long.
We could talk all day.
Your book yet?
Here I am, lessons from a BlackMan.
Search for Home is Out now.
Wherever you get your books andall the great things people
could find you on the socialmedia.
This is the very last episode ofthe season.
It's the last episode of thesummer.
(01:19:35):
So you're like the grand finalemoment.
Jonathan Capehart (01:19:38):
neat.
Oh, you know what?
There's one other thing about mybook that we haven't sent.
Jason Blitman (01:19:42):
What.
Jonathan Capehart (01:19:43):
It is a New
York Times bestseller
Jason Blitman (01:19:45):
Oh, excuse me.
New York Times Bestseller fromPulitzer Prize Winner, Jonathan
Capehart.
Gotta give all the accoladeswhen they are due.
Yes, bestselling Pulitzer Prizewinner, Jonathan Capehart.
What a way to send out oursummer.
Fabulous guest, gay reader.
(01:20:07):
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Jonathan Capehart (01:20:08):
Oh my God.
Jason, this is so much fun.
Thank you for having me.
Jason Blitman (01:20:12):
My absolute
pleasure.
Thank you Jr.
Thank you Jonathan.
Everyone, uh, thank you so muchfor being here.
Happy season finale.
Have a wonderful few weeks and agreat rest of your day.
Bye.