Lily King (Heart the Lover) feat. Dustin Thao, Guest Gay Reader

Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Gaze reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what, andwhy.
Anyone can listen.
Comes we're spoiler free Readingfrom politic stars to book club
picks where the curious mindscan get their picks.
So you say you're not gay.

(00:24):
Well that's okay.
There's something for everyone.
Gays rating.
Hello and welcome to GA'sReading.
I'm your host, Jason Blitman.
And on today's episode I haveLily King, the one and only Lily
King.

(00:45):
Uh, she talks to me about herbrand new book, heart the Lover.
And my guest gay reader today isDustin Tao, whose book you've
found Oliver, uh, also just cameout.
So both of those books areavailable now.
Both of their bios can be foundin the show notes, and I am so
happy to be here.

(01:05):
This.
band Books week y'all.
What are, what are we doing tocombat band books?
Um, I know I'm gonna buy a bunchand I'm gonna gift a bunch and
support some local organizationsand like my local library and
other things like that.
So I hope you're doing somethingtoo to support, uh, the.

(01:26):
The band books crazy y'all.
It is freaking crazy.
Um, anyway, thank you all forbeing here.
If you are new to Gay's Reading,welcome.
If you are coming back again, asalways, welcome back.
Such a I'm, I am I.
Astonished and grateful thatfolks keep coming back.
I once upon a time hatedlistening to my own voice, uh,

(01:47):
and would've never thought thatpeople would wanna listen to it.
So this is always very funny tome.
Um, folks have asked me how toleave a review for the show, so
let me quickly explain.
If you're listening on ApplePodcasts and you're listening to
the episode, you can click GazeReading underneath the episode.
Title and it'll take you to themain page.
Then scroll all the way down andyou'll see the ratings and

(02:10):
reviews, you'll see the stars.
Um, and that is the place thatyou could leave, uh, hopefully a
five star rating and a review ifyou're so inclined.
It means so much to me andreally helps with the algorithm
so that other folks can intheory, potentially find this
podcast.
In addition, we are on socialmedia.

(02:32):
We are, AKI is reading over onthe Instagram and what else is
happening.
There's a lot of fun stuffcoming down the pike in the
world in my life.
And I'm excited to share some ofthat as the weeks go on.
Today is Tuesday.
Tomorrow, Wednesday.
I am in conversation live withClaire Leslie Hall, uh, talking

(02:56):
about her book Broken Country,which has been one of my.
Favorites of the year and wewill be, uh, together in
conversation in San Diego.
I was recently in conversationwith Mona Awa for her new book.
We Love You Bunny.
And I'm gonna post that audiorecording of that conversation
on the Gaze reading Substack.
So if you're not following Gazereading over on Substack, do

(03:19):
that so that you could check outmy conversation with my pal Mona
Awa.
Um, I'm Will.
Most that conversation will befree for folks to listen to so
you can hop on over to thesubstack and check that out.
On the 15th, of course the GazeReading Book Club pick will be
announced for the November bookclub for Stora, like, which is

(03:41):
crazy'cause it's barely October.
Um, but the November book Clubpick will be announced then.
And if you have not joined forthe month of October, you still
have time.
To do that, we're reading MiddleSpoon by Alejandro Illa, which I
was certainly a big fan of, andknow that folks will really like
it too.
All the things, all the linksare in the bio on Instagram and

(04:02):
in the show notes here on thepage for those who have listened
to me ramble on.
Thanks for bearing with me.
Um, but everyone, please enjoymy conversations with Lily King
and Dustin Tao.

Jason Blitman (04:17):
Lily King, welcome to Gay's Reading.

Lily King (04:20):
thank you.
I'm so honored to be here.

Are you kidding?
I'm so excited here to talkabout Heart the Lover.
I have so many things to talk toyou about, but I want you to
give us the elevator pitch.
For heart, the lever to set thescene for us.

Lily King (04:33):
Okay at the very beginning, a nameless woman goes
on a bad date with a very smartguy and.
That kind of is the catalyst forthe whole thing.
It's her senior year of collegeand despite the fact that
everybody on the internet seemsto be calling it a campus novel,

(04:54):
we only stay on campus for lessthan half the book.
And then we jump.
21 years and then we'd jumpanother nine years.
It's really about a relationshipthat starts in college as a
romantic relationship.
And there's a love triangle ofcourse, at first, and then.

(05:17):
And then it's really about theevolution of love in your life
and how you love peopleromantically.
And then it turns into aprofound friendship.
And I'm just, I'm reallyinterested right now in the
different forms of love and howit presents itself and how you
can feel different forms of lovefor the same person throughout
your life.

It's very interesting.
I, speaking of campus novels, acollege, two college professors
who were married for 30 years toeach other.
Are recently going through adivorce and they are so
publicly, like consciouslyuncoupling.
And it's really just a matter ofhow they're shifting their love

(05:57):
for each other.

Lily King (05:59):
Interesting.

It's very interesting.

Lily King (06:02):
Of course, I wanna ask a million questions about
that.

I don't actually know that much, unfortunately.
It's like what I see on socialmedia, which is like its own
problem right now.
We're getting the snippets ofwhat they want us to see.

Lily King (06:15):
And so it's, they're not presenting it as
acrimonious.

no.

Lily King (06:19):
That's beautiful.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Love shifts and changes as welearn in the book.

Lily King (06:24):
Yeah.

Okay.
What is with the vulgarpackaging of the book,

Lily King (06:30):
No one has called it vulgar yet, but

it, you call it that

Lily King (06:36):
whatcha talking about,

girl.

Lily King (06:39):
oh shit, what did I say?

PA page four.
The professor is holding up twoneon orange pieces of paper
despite its vulgar packaging, hesays,

Lily King (06:50):
Okay.
First of all, no one has putthat together yet.
Not even me.
Isn't that sad?
Isn't that so sad?
I don't even know what's in thatbook.

That's so funny because here I am.
I know.
I was like, you're wearing abright orange shirt.
Orange comes up again in thebook, and I was like, a, why is
she obsessed with orange B?
The concept of the book beingneon orange per the beginning of
the book is genius.
You didn't even get it.

Lily King (07:17):
Did not get it because that book that design
came to us as yellow, like asbright yellow, and the what is
pink now was red and it was anentirely different thing.
And we were all like, okay, thisis really weird, but really
good.
We're gonna go with it.
And then everyone was like, it'stoo much like yellow face.

(07:40):
You know the big hit

Oh,

Lily King (07:42):
Several years ago, we cannot do that.
And we're like, no, what are wegonna do?
And then we had a gazilliondifferent colors to choose from.
And this is what we chose.
Never thinking about the orange,because that orange was
originally green.
It was neon green, and

In the book.

Lily King (08:00):
yes.
All the colors have beenrearranged everywhere.

my

Lily King (08:04):
And I think probably maybe at some point we did
connect it, but I've completelyforgotten that'cause it's been
months and months.
But thank you for preparing mefor that one

it's the third line of the book.
Talking about neon orange andbeing vulgar packaging.
That's why I

Lily King (08:20):
that

book Vulgar Lily.
That's the only reason.
Oh my God, it's so funny.

Lily King (08:25):
just thought it was just a random swipe at the
cover.
I was like, okay, here we go.

Welcome to gay's reading where we just judge.

Lily King (08:34):
They're meanies.

Oh my God, it's so funny.
Wait, but you clearly like thecolor orange.
You're wearing it right now.

Lily King (08:40):
it's true.
I'm really wearing it for themessage, which is probably
upside down for you, orbackwards

No.
It's perfect.

Lily King (08:47):
Good.
Which I think is so importantright now.
We need to stay human.

I know.
Okay.
You say it's not a campus novel'cause we are less than half the
book on campus.
But however our protagonisttakes a class that I'm dying to
take, which is modern furniture.

Lily King (09:07):
That is.

It sounds amazing.
Did you take Margaret?
Where did.
that come from?

Lily King (09:13):
I did.
And I was so bored.
Of course now I would beinterested, but I was not
interested as a 21-year-old.

isn't that the thing?
Oh my God.
The things that we wouldappreciate now that we didn't
when we were young people, but Iwas like, modern furniture, I
wanna take that class.
Oh, but you were bored.

Lily King (09:33):
I was bored.
And I'll tell you somethingelse, is every, I had to, I
actually.
Read a little snippet on anotherinterview today.
And I got to the modernfurniture part, and I was
remembering that when I tookmodern furniture, like it was
this, professor down as Idescribed down, at a slideshow
thingy, at the bottom of thisbig auditorium where you sat,

(09:55):
and the com, the seats were socomfy that you fell asleep.
And I was just like, I don'tknow.
I just found it alsounremarkable and it turns out
that a friend of a friend.
Was in that class and she fellin love with that professor and
they're married and they haveseveral children I believe.
And that was just a miracle tome because that guy like and I

(10:16):
think he was actually reallygood looking, but.
I was, I was,

that class for you.

Lily King (10:21):
I just, I didn't see him as a human,

Oh no.
See, for me, a hot professorcould totally save a class.
I'm, that's too bad

Lily King (10:29):
No, I wasn't into older men at all.
They terrified me.

Did you take other weird classes like that?

Lily King (10:36):
Oh God.
I'm sure I did.
I took ice skating um, when I, Idid I, I did, I did my first
year and a half of college wasat UNH and and there was, yeah,
I had, there was a PErequirement and so I took ice
skating.
I was actually, I actuallylearned how to turn and
everything.

(10:57):
And it

Do you think you could still do

Lily King (10:58):
Yes I could.

Interesting.
Okay.

Lily King (11:02):
was useful.

In high school my PE requirement was first aid.

Lily King (11:08):
Oh, I love that.

This chubby theater kid was not doing
anything else besides First aid.

Lily King (11:16):
I bet you still use those things to this day.

Sure, of course.

Lily King (11:20):
saved

Remember how CPR goes, right?
But it had me thinking incollege.
I took history of radio, was myhistory requirement, which was

Lily King (11:31):
Wow, that's really cool.

Yeah.
And then my religion class,'cause I went to this nice
Jewish boy, went to the largestCatholic university in the
country and I had to take areligion class.
But it could have been anything.
And my religion class wasreligion in pop culture.

Lily King (11:44):
Oh wow.
That sounds really interesting.
What what did you write yourpapers on?

I, my paper was on how a feeder is like a
church.

Lily King (11:56):
Ooh.
That's beautiful.
That's so beautiful.

And things that came up were like how malls are
religious experiences and allsorts of weird, very specific.
Yeah, it was fascinating.

Lily King (12:10):
that is fascinating.
Wow.
No, I didn't take anythinginteresting like that.

Oh my god.
Modern furniture though.
That's so funny.

Lily King (12:20):
Ah.

I'm a little bummed.
It's fine.
It made me think, the book mademe think a lot about student
verse scholar And how a studentcan become a scholar, but a
scholar can always be a student.

Lily King (12:37):
hmm.
Interesting.

I, again, we're, we'll move off of campus in a
minute, but what, was it likegoing back to school for you?

Lily King (12:46):
I just wanna follow up do you feel like a scholar
can't always be a studentbecause of the sort of arrogance
and superiority

No, I think a scholar can always

Lily King (12:55):
oh, can, okay.
Sorry.
Sorry.

right?
A student has to become ascholar, a scholar can

Lily King (13:02):
Yes.
Okay.
Okay.
That makes

So as a scholar of creative writing, let's say,
what was it like coming back toschool for you?

Lily King (13:10):
Oh, it was really fun.
I had been writing before thisnovel, I had been after and
after writers and lovers, Istarted this political murder
mystery, COVID.
We were into COVID, and Trumpwas still president and.
I had a lot of fear and rage,and so I tried to channel it

(13:31):
into this novel that went fullforce for 90 pages and then
crashed into a brick wall.
And and right at that time whenI was really trying to literally
break through a brick wall andPatchett sent me her manuscript
for Tom Lake and I startedreading that and I, it starts in
a gym in high school and, Idon't know.

(13:53):
There was something about it.
I just was like, she is havingfun.
I want to have fun.
And so I just flipped to theback of that notebook and I
started writing that classroomscene in, in college between
these three people.
And and that was it.
I never ever looked back.
I just and I.

(14:14):
I, that's funny.
I don't know how much I feltlike I was going back, but I
suppose I was going back.
I definitely drew on experiencesthat I had in college and

You took Marty Furniture,

Lily King (14:26):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And anything that, I could use,I would use, and just the
emotions of that time is reallywhat I went back to.
Um.
At the same time, I'm not I'm init, but I'm not reflecting back
on being in it and while it'sgoing on.
So it's hard to talk aboutbecause you just go into little

(14:49):
bit of a trance, when you'rewriting and when you come out,
you don't really remember whatthat trance was like,

Well, You're also, to be fair to you and to
the story, it's not autofiction.
You are, you're just pullingfrom experiences to like piece
together details.
Not to say that, like not to.
Say that writing is that simple,but you're pulling from your

Lily King (15:13):
Yeah.
No, you're pulling fromeverything you got.
I feel like I'm just, every,everything I have I need to draw
from, because it is.
It.
It demands a lot.
These scenes.

Speaking of education and scholars what is
everything that comes to mindwhen you think of James Joyce?

Lily King (15:35):
All those things that she said.

I had a feeling.

Lily King (15:39):
definitely.
Yes.

Uhhuh,

Lily King (15:41):
of Ulysses and the snow falling on the living in
the dead and the end of the deadand is what my, my high school.
The English teacher taught me.

That's so funny.
I never read any James Joy.
I've still never read any JamesJoyce.
But as a theater kid, there wasa musical adaptation of James
Joyce's the Dead, and that is myonly reference point of James
Joyce, which is so weird.
But after reading that sectionin the book, I was like, oh, I
need to do A little Jo.

Lily King (16:15):
Yeah, you could start with just Arab, the Short Story
Arab or the Short Story of theDead tho those are there's a,
there's an amazing essay by JupeLahiri from many years ago, and
she begins it, it's calledSentences.
The essay has the word sentencesin it, and it's all about how
sentences thrill her.

(16:35):
And she quotes.
A line from Arab which is aboutboys playing outside and they
I'm not gonna be able to get it,but it's a beautiful sentence
about what it feels like to be achild playing outside in the
cold until you're feel numb,it's just beautiful.

(16:55):
Yeah he's extraordinary sentenceby sentence.
Extraordinary.

I would've been very impressed if you pulled out
a random James Joy's sentenceright now.
But

Lily King (17:05):
to memory and I lost it,

no, that is.

Lily King (17:08):
Welcome to being 60.

That's impossible.
If I remember, while I'm editingthis episode, I will say the
sentence at the end so peoplecan hear it.
Or I'll stick it in the shownotes or something.
So speaking of lists of thingsthere, there's another list that
comes up from our narrator.
She talks about a list of femaleauthors that inspired her.

(17:30):
That would you say?
Same from in the book, whichagain, our reader, our listeners
can go read, but if there's

Lily King (17:36):
Yeah, there.
Of course I don't exactlyremember her list, but I would
say more or less, I definitelythrew in some writers that I'm
maybe not all that familiar withor that I don't have that
connection.
I try, I wanted to separate alittle bit from her taste.
But mostly

what's who?
What's Lilly's taste?
If you had to name one or two

Lily King (17:56):
Virginia Wolf is always, a big one Shirley
Hazard.
Marilyn Robinson love ElizabethStrout Tessa Hadley.
Faulkner was a huge influence meon me in college.
Huge.

That's interesting.

Lily King (18:11):
I know, I was in the south and, but I just read the
sound and the Fury kind ofrecently, a couple years ago,
and I was just blown away by it.
I just.
I thought that was extraordinaryand I had never really
understood it before.

What inspired picking it up?

Lily King (18:31):
That's a good question.
I think I would just was lookingfor something that would inspire
me and remind me of really goodwriting.
That's almost, it's just almostout of reach.
Like you are not alwaysconfident.
You understand everything that'sgoing on in that book.

(18:55):
And and that's exciting, andleaves room for the imagination
and kind of gets your juicesgoing.
So I think that's why I pickedit up.

That's fair.
I love that.
You said he was a big influenceon you in college.
What are some other, just likehis canon, is there something in
particular that

Lily King (19:14):
Oh, it was Abso, abso I was obsessed with Abso Abso,
which I haven't read actuallysince college.

oh, that's

Lily King (19:20):
Yeah.
Another one.
Another one is called Toy Bean.
I just worship him.
Who else?
Tony Morrison.
I was obsessed with her ingraduate school.

I've only read one, but she's very high on my
list of more.
I have all of her books.

Lily King (19:35):
Yeah, beloved, I wrote my thesis on Beloved and
Amazing book.

You just talked about wanting to separate your
taste from our narrator's tastea little bit.
Something that she talks aboutdoing is hiding her emotion in
her fiction.
Is that something that you do?

Lily King (19:50):
Oh, for sure.

What does that look like?

Lily King (19:54):
I just, I don't always know what I feel until I
write about it, and so it's adiscovery.
I don't always well know why Iam writing about something and
then I see what's happening, andI feel things, I wrote this book
called Father of the Rain.
It was my third novel.
It was about my father and God.

(20:17):
I had so many unarticulatedfeelings about him, and he was
way too dangerous a man toactually say how you were
feeling around, I was just, itwas a pure appeasement at every
single moment and that book wasso helpful to me because I just.
I really got to just get inthere, get into all my emotions

(20:42):
from my childhood and my,twenties and thirties and
forties and just really expressmyself, and really say it.
And I didn't need to say it tohim.
And by the time the book cameout, he had this big stroke and
I.
Don't think he even knew Ipublished a book.
And so that was, probably easierfor me.

(21:05):
'Cause there would've been somerepercussions there.
But I think that was just reallynecessary to do that in some
way.
And writing is the way I do it.
Sorry.

I was just wondering if you two had been in
touch.

Lily King (21:20):
Yes.
I was like the good daughter whojust stayed in touch and stayed
in touch despite him not, and Iwould visit, he would never
visit me.
I would try to keep the visitsvery short.
And then I saw a therapist whowas like, you don't have to do
that.
What do you want to do?

(21:42):
What do you feel like doing?
I was like, oh my God, I canactually make a choice here.
And so I didn't, I just stoppedcommunicating with him.
I think it took him and mystepmother probably a year to
realize what was happening.
And then I'd get like somemessages and I was just I'm just
gonna give, I think I wrote hima letter, but he saw it and it

(22:05):
was'cause just me expressingthings.
He thought saw it as a, anapproach and I was like, no.
And then I just kept it, Ididn't see him for a long time.
And then he had a stroke andthen I did see him, I went to
the hospital'cause I was told hewas gonna die, but he didn't
die.
But it was a, it was anopportunity for me to reconnect,
but on my terms.

(22:25):
And that's how it was until hedied.
And that was great.

Thank you for sharing all of that.
I ask very selfishly, because Iam in the second phase of that
journey right now where I've notbeen in communication for over
five years now.

Lily King (22:40):
Wow.

and I wonder what would I do if I get that phone
call about the stroke?

Lily King (22:46):
Yeah.

And I wonder how would articulating myself on the
page.
Be different or cathartic orwould it make a difference or
matter or whatever.
Yeah, it's been a long journey.

Lily King (23:00):
Wow, that is really interesting.
So my mother who had left myfather years and years before
that, she was really freaked outby my silence, am I doing this?
She's if he dies, you're gonnaregret it.
Which is funny because she's notthat she would never, that just
wasn't really her mo but she wasa little concerned about me.

(23:21):
But I will say he did dieeventually.
I didn't regret it at all.
I did not regret it.
It was just, it had to happenfor me, and it didn't really
seem to bother him all thatmuch.
And so I really, I just thinkhaving relationships.
On your terms, or at least onequal terms.

(23:46):
It's just really important.
And I believe that therapist,when I wrote, I think I wrote
him like a postcard, not exactlya letter.
And she, I think she just said,what would you like him to know
and not, not angry, not anythinglike just and I think she asked
me to write it, to write it.
What are the good things?

(24:06):
Like what are the good thingsyou would like him to know?
And that's what I wrote.
And that felt good too because,he knew those, I told him, and
I'll always have the knowledgethat, that he read that and he
knew that.
'cause that's what I feel likewas most important.
So I just say that if you wannado that,

Very interesting advice.
I

Lily King (24:27):
I,

that.
Yeah, no, that's

Lily King (24:29):
But that is that's hard stuff.
And I'm sorry.

Listen, it is and it isn't.
I think part of it is hard stuffbecause we're told it is Talk
about love evolvingrelationships evolving,

Lily King (24:42):
Yeah.

That does not just happen in friendships.

Lily King (24:45):
Exactly.

and I don't think we give ourselves permission for
that to change with ourrelatives.

Lily King (24:53):
It's very true.
It's very true.
It's really, you feel, at leastI felt as a child, very small
and I felt very small for a longtime, like until, my mid
forties.
And it is amazing when youbecome your own size in these
relationships.
And they really do change.

(25:15):
'cause if you change, they haveto change.

Yeah.

Lily King (25:18):
So more power to

would.
I thank you.
You too.
I was saying to someone, and Isay this all the time, but just
said it yesterday to someoneelse that I.
Didn't feel like an adult untilI realized that being an adult
is just making it up as we

Lily King (25:33):
Mm-hmm.

And none of us actually know what we're doing.
And I was like, oh, now I feellike I'm in the club.
We're all just figuring it out,

Lily King (25:43):
It's so true.
It is so frigging true.

Okay.
Back to your writing process.
You talked about perhaps goingto Faulkner because the language
is maybe like almost out ofreach.
There is so much Shakespeare andGreek stories in heart, the
lover.

Lily King (26:05):
Okay, say more.

Is this a, Is this a quiz or do you not
remember, or is it.

Lily King (26:12):
I didn't get the orange, so I don't

I know.
this is what I'm saying.
So there's one big Shakespearething that I loved so much that
I don't think is a spoiler.
But the, again, you may or maynot even realize you did this,
but the name of the house of theprofessor

Lily King (26:36):
Oh, okay.
Yes, yes, Yes.

And there is something about once more unto
the breach

Lily King (26:43):
Wow, okay.

scholar student.

Lily King (26:47):
Exactly.
Yeah.
No really truly theater kid,fiction

my God,

Lily King (26:54):
writer.

So funny.
It is.
The amount of times where I'llsay something back to a writer
and they're like, oh my God,yes, you're right.
Look at how well that connected.
But the fact that it's calledthe breach once more unto the
breach.
Is so fitting for the book.
There is a Julius Caesarreference.

(27:15):
There is multi attu brute.

Lily King (27:18):
Well,

There are well, you know, it's a, a reference.
Um, And just the concept of atragedy right, I think comes up
a lot too.
So that for me was very sort ofShakespearean and.
The, I think the trope ofShakespeare's comedies versus
tragedies is comedies endedmarriage and tragedies end in

(27:41):
death.
And it got me thinking like, oh,we all die.
We're all living in a

Lily King (27:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.

I was like, that's terrible.
So you asked me to say more.
That obviously surprised you.
What does it, what do you say?
Hearing all of that

Lily King (28:01):
Um, uh.

does

Lily King (28:06):
I love that.
I mean, Yes.
I mean, Of course Shakespearemeans something to me.
Not as much as I wish he did.
I, I have this huge Shakespearecollection of, things that I
ordered last year and I had thisintention of reading absolutely
everyone.
And I haven't we even crackedthe book.
I loved I loved, readingShakespeare in college?

(28:27):
I've read a little since but nota whole lot.
I love his sonnets.

ML Rio was recently on the show and she was
saying,'cause she was aShakespeare scholar, she said
Shakespeare really is meant tobe experienced and not to be

Lily King (28:41):
Mm-hmm.

Cause it was designed to be performed.
So that's an interesting, Cutyourself a little slack.

Lily King (28:47):
Yeah.
And I've seen many Shakespeare.
Othello is probably one of myvery favorites.

Oh yeah.
Why is that?

Lily King (28:56):
I, I don't, I, I just, I love the I I love the
deception and the it's hard tomake a really evil character,
and I find Iago truly scary.

Yeah.
Yeah.
That's fair.

Lily King (29:11):
And then obviously Hamlet and the father, I love.
I probably relate the most toHamlet just because of the
broken family and the stepfatherand the the sense of the power
grab.
I feel like my whole, childhoodwas a power grab by my father.

(29:34):
And, yeah.
Anyway I feel like there's aoften a father and son issue in
my novels that that can maybe bea little Shakespearean.
That sort of tension of a fathernot feeling that their son is
worth passing the mantle on too,feeling, which I'm interested

(29:55):
in.

Jumping off some of that, what does.
We are all our sins rememberedmean to you.

Lily King (30:06):
Ah.
I don't even know if that thisis true, but I feel like the
first time I ever heard that waseither in a letter or a short
story by an old boyfriend ofmine.

Oh,

Lily King (30:22):
And so I think of him and I also feel, I think
probably a little bit likeJordan in the novel like, don't
gimme a fucking break.
Like, Let's not um, let's notload up on, I don't know, this

(30:45):
kind of narcissistic tendency tothink that.
All of your actions are soincredibly important and they're
stored in your body and youcarry them around and like just
let it go.
Just lighten up I think is maybewhat I feel about that.
What does it mean to you?

I.

Lily King (31:02):
Theater kid?

It's, I know it's interesting because I, I was
like interpreting it in amultitude of ways and I was
like, is it like a body keepsthe score sort of situation?
Is it.
Is it we can't run from themistakes we've made, the sins
we've, done.

Lily King (31:23):
All right.

I, yeah, I don't know.
I think it, it it feels likethis like weighty sentence that
can be interpreted in different

Lily King (31:32):
Mm-hmm.

So it's interesting to hear that it was
first presented to you by anex-boyfriend.

Lily King (31:39):
I know.
And I can't really remember thecontext.
It's strange.

Yeah, but funny that you remember

Lily King (31:45):
It's, yeah.
Yeah.

Huh?

Lily King (31:49):
And this was in my thirties.
It was not in college.

Oh, okay.
Were you like, why would youwrite such an arrogant sentence?

Lily King (31:57):
I guess I would say if we're really gonna like dish
on him that

Let's dish

Lily King (32:03):
we had a lot of time apart because I lived in Spain
and he didn't, and so there werea lot of WR letters back and
forth and I always felt.
These letters that he wrote mewere not remotely for me.
They were like, they were for,they were just, they were like
writing exercises for him, Ijust felt like I wasn't really

(32:27):
involved.
This was him writing to him, andthis was him flexing for a lack
of better word, and he waswriting beautiful things.
They weren't emotional.
I think he maybe thought theywere, but I just felt like
that's just for him.
And then we'd we broke up andthen we got back together, and

(32:49):
then we moved in together and Ihad his letters and he asked me
if he could use them for anovel.
And I was like, oh yeah, Ialways knew.
This is what you were gonna dowith those letters.
And I

Oh my God.

Lily King (33:05):
way.
Are you gonna have thoseletters?
No.
And he was really mad.
And weirdly, I had them, this isnot the way I operate normally.
I'm so chaotic and disorganized.
But I had them like tied up in abundle.

Very classic.

Lily King (33:21):
And I opened the drawer and the bundle was untied
and he had gone in and used themanyway.
Granted they were his writing,but it was just something that
was like so confirming.
We broke up soon after that andI was like, oh yeah, I got your
number.

Oh, how interesting.
And it's, yes, it's his writing,but what's the intention?
The intention is for it to beyour right.
It's all very, that's verycomplicated.
But that Lily is a great storyfor a book.

Lily King (33:51):
Oh, okay.
Lemme write that down.

Seriously.

Lily King (33:54):
Okay.

The story of the, those letter like, come on.
Oh my God.
I love it.
Okay.
Speaking of, stories and funthings, happier things there is
a fabulous card game in the

Lily King (34:06):
Oh yes, great.

sir Ham, fun buster.
Am I saying it

Lily King (34:13):
I say not that there is like a right or wrong

No.
How do you, how does Lily sayit?

Lily King (34:17):
funny Buster.

so Here come funny Buster.
Yeah, Okay.
It is a card game in the book.
Do you like card

Lily King (34:24):
I love card.
Gameses love them so much.
And in fact my husband had theidea to make a, to make a deck
of cards based on this.

Oh, how fun.

Lily King (34:33):
we did, and I wish I had them to show you, but I
don't have them up here.
But

And

Lily King (34:37):
sheet, so

Yes, Grove.
Put together this greatinstruction sheet that I will
link to, In the

Lily King (34:44):
Oh, fantastic.

go play.
Sir Hinkel fun.
Funny Buster, whether or not youread the book though, obviously
you should read the book, butyou'll learn how to play the
game.
How did this game come to be?

Lily King (34:53):
I have these really good friends named Joss and ect,
and I met them bizarrely, Josswas.
The roommate of a old boyfriendof mine.
And and like I met them when Iwas 22 with this boyfriend.
Boyfriend.
And I broke up and they becamemy dear friends for life.
And we actually own a housetogether and our kids grew up

(35:14):
together and it's woo.
So anyway, dad, so we're talkinglike 1900, basically.
19 0 1, 19 0 2.
Learn this game when he was akid and he taught it to his son,
who taught it to his son.
And it's basically a game, Ithink to, it was designed for
manners, right?
You have to ask in a certainway, may I please have?

(35:35):
And then before you touch it,you have to say thank you.
And and so it's like old maid,except you're collecting a whole
family and it's a lot more fun.
And there really can be somesubterfuge and some, it, we
played it a couple of nights agowith friends

Oh my

Lily King (35:52):
we had so much fun.
I just loved it so much.
And we've played, been playingwith my kids since they were
little.
And and then my friend elect,who's married to Jos, who's
father and grandfather taught inthe game elect went online and
she did some research, which Ihave not been able to find, but
she found a board game from the18 hundreds.

(36:12):
Called sir, not Hinkel, butsomething close, funny duster,
and it was a board game and Ithink it had, it was very
similar.
So somehow I, I don't know,some, somewhere along the line.
Anyway,

In Alice Island,

Lily King (36:28):
I, yeah, exactly.

it turned into a

Lily King (36:31):
Exactly.

Oh, that's so fascinating.
So this made me think about asong that my mom used to sing to
me as a kid, and I learned laterthat her dad sang it to her and
her siblings, but he made it up.

Lily King (36:50):
Oh my gosh.
Sing it.

I, it's like, no,

Lily King (36:53):
Oh, come on, come on, come on.
You know you want to.

No, Lily, how dare you.
I would.
But it's been like now myyoungest sister has children and
sings it to them.
And so it just made me thinkabout this like very specific
thing that is legacy in ourfamily that really isn't known
outside of the family.
And there is.

(37:18):
One of my absolute favoritemoments in the book is related
to this exact That I won't saymore about.
Other than this, because thisclearly it has some legacy like
that for you, is there anythingelse in your life where you're
like, oh, this is mine, this ismy family's, this is our
family's, and no one else doesthis thing, whether it's a song

(37:40):
or a game or a recipe, or.

Lily King (37:44):
Yes.
Yes, we have, we definitely havel little things, but the, when I
think of recipe it's not like.
That nobody else has it.
But in my little town that Igrew up in, they put together a
little recipe book, in thesixties of I, it was very, it
was a town full of housewivesand, they were probably really

(38:05):
bored one day and they decidedto make a cookbook.
And one of the recipes in thereis something called elephant
ears, and it's basically a tallhouse chocolate chip cookie.
But apparently one family thatwe knew down the road one day
just messed it all up and theymelted the butter instead of
defrosted it.
And they put, they didn't useany baking powder.

(38:26):
They've used baking soda andthey used they use less flour
anyway.
We have this recipe and it is todie for like it is makes our, we
all are addicted to thesecookies.
My daughter comes home and

The Accidental Cookies has its own new recipe.
Oh, how fun.

Lily King (38:43):
so

Oh, I, love

Lily King (38:45):
them as blondies.
And they're really good too.
And I can I can, if I think ofit I can definitely leave.
I can write you that and I canput

Oh, I'll make a note to reach out about it'cause
that would be so great.
Although, I, I wanna keep it inyour

Lily King (39:00):
Oh, that's okay.

it's close enough.
We're family now.

Lily King (39:04):
Exactly.

Oh, I love that.
And I love a chocolate chipcookie too, so I'm gonna judge
really hard.

Lily King (39:12):
okay.
I'm ready for it.
I'm ready for it.
Everybody has their own thing.
Like some, like them, we havefriends, Jo, actually, Jos and
Elta, they bonded really earlyon o over their fact of their
love of a really crispychocolate chip cookie like.
I don't like a crispy chocolate.
Not all the way through.

listen, I'm not gonna, if it's the only thing on
the table, I will eat it

Lily King (39:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, But it's like Chips Ahoy.
Who would want that?

yeah.
No, it is not my first choice.
I didn't know that there were asmany songs about fares.

Lily King (39:49):
I didn't either.
I literally, I was not choosingsongs about fares.
They just one and then theother, and then I was like, what
is going on?
They all came to me.
Yeah.

and then of course, I like Googled and
prepped for this, and I waslike, there are.
Dozens and dozens.
Like we're not, it's, there are

Lily King (40:06):
you've heard of?

I haven't necessarily heard of all of
them.
I've heard of some of them, butlike the list on Wikipedia or
wherever it Was extensive.

Lily King (40:15):
a list of songs about fares?

Now that I've seen how many there are, yes, I
can.
It is a genre.

Lily King (40:23):
Oh, that is very

God.
So funny.
Okay.
Our narrator is a writer, aswe've talked about at one point.
She says, all of literaturerests on the promise that we
change.
We grow, have epiphanies becomebetter, understand our flaws.
Do you believe that to be true?

Lily King (40:44):
No,

Mm.

Lily King (40:46):
I don't.
I, I think.
That happens sometimes inliterature, but it's not a
given.
And

it's funny, I read it and I wanted it to be
true

Lily King (41:01):
yeah.

and I anticipated you saying yes.
And my follow up question wasgonna be how do we continue to
believe that,

Lily King (41:11):
I know.

right?
Because I feel like it's almost.
Impossible because I don't knowthat we have epiphanies and we
don't become better, and wedon't understand our flaws.
I think we, some of us wouldlike to believe that we try to,
but

Lily King (41:25):
I know I want to believe it too.
I really do.
And I think at certain times inyour life you do believe it and.

I.

Lily King (41:35):
It's so disheartening not to.
And I do think that asindividuals, I, it is so very
possible, is it possible as, aspeople, it's funny because.
Oh God, I can't believe it'sback to Joslyn elect again.
But Joss's dad and I are veryclose because he went out with

(41:58):
my husband's mother for 15years.
It's just amazing.
They met separately in anothercountry and they started going
out.
So

Lily, that's another book

Lily King (42:08):
I know.
And and so he and I.
He is like my second dad.
He's just so amazing and we havemighty arguments about this and
about whether humans as a racecan change whether they get
better.
Whether this idea of an arctoward morality or toward

(42:28):
justice, actually does bendtowards justice.
And do we, are we evolving inthat way?
And and I always take thePollyanna position of we
absolutely are getting better.
We are getting better.
We are, look at how far we'vecome.
I take her position and thenhe's are humans?
We'll always be the same and wealways have the same emotions

(42:52):
and we don't get better orworse.
We are just who we are.

As a group,

Lily King (42:59):
As a group.
Yeah.
What do you think?

I am going on year five of therapy.

Lily King (43:09):
Very good.

I feel like I've changed exponentially.

Lily King (43:12):
Mm-hmm.

Have put in the work and I've watched my fellow
man and woman and they man not,

Lily King (43:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.

So it's, it is hard because on one hand I'm
like, okay, if we all, it's likerecycling.
If we all just do this onething, but we can't,

Lily King (43:35):
know.
I know.
And we have all the resourcesright now as a species To do the
right thing, to live communally,to all thrive.
I really believe that we havethose resources and we don't do
it.
And I mean, it's so easy topoint to individuals and to

(43:57):
billionaires.
But it's much bigger than that.
It, it, It's, yeah.
It's something about our nature.
I,

I think if the butterfly effect was clearer.
We would be better if we couldsee what incremental change
could do.
I think it would be betterbecause I think so many people
believe that they, their littlething can't make a big
difference.

(44:28):
And I think

Lily King (44:28):
Yeah, no, I think that is very true.

And our last few minutes together on a similar
note, Eternalism.
Presentism, do you wanna explainto our listeners the difference?

Lily King (44:41):
Yes.
Two theories of time.
That I heard on a podcasteternalism is this idea that
everything is happening all atonce, all the time.
And that, our little humanbrains can't really process
that.
And so we've created time to, tobe able to process that.

(45:03):
But that it's eternal and thenit's all at once.
And then Presentism is anothertheory that is all there is, is
the present.
Everything else is absolutelydead and gone.
The, obviously the future hasn'thappened yet.
The past is gone, never to bereturned there.

(45:23):
There's is just, it's just onlywhat we have right now.
And that's it.
And that's time.

So where do you land?

Lily King (45:32):
I know.
So it was interesting because inthe podcast, and I think I put
this kind of in the book likethis, is that the person was
asked that and and he said I'mleaning towards PS Presentism.
And I was so surprised becauseif you have a choice between
always having everything.
And just having this momentthat's so fleeting, you can't

(45:54):
even touch it.
And I don't know, it makes me,make me feel unhinged, so I just
have to, for my own wellbeing,believe in eternalism.
But we get it all the time.
All the time that everybody'shere.
My mom is back, and everyone'shere.
And it feels more like that.
My mom died nine and a halfyears ago.

(46:16):
I don't feel like she's gone.
I feel her all the time,

Yeah.

Lily King (46:20):
so I don't know what does that mean.

A, a former life of mine, I worked in theater for
young audiences, so professionaltheater for young people.
And it is known to have a bit ofa stigma because it's just for
kids in quotation marks.
But there was there's aplaywright and an author named
Steven Dietz who wrote thisterrific article about how.

(46:45):
We are all the young people thatwe once were inside of us.
And so there's no reason why wecan't also appreciate that.
And it made me think about ourlife as like a snowball rather
than a line Because it remindedme like, oh yeah, I still giggle
at the same things I giggled atwhen I was a kid.
You still hear your mothersaying that thing to you every

(47:09):
time you do that thing that sherolled her eyes, and so like how
can that not be there?

Lily King (47:14):
I know

it has just become, so I'm sort of in a camp
of somewhere in the middle of ofwhat is present in past.
Rolled in the ball looked likesort of rolling towards the
future that I, that that'swhatever that, Whatever that is.
I know.
Well, It is now.

(47:36):
It is now.
Lily, let's name it.

Lily King (47:38):
Okay, let's give it a

God.
So as heard on gay's reading,everyone, this is the theory.
Just call me Isaac Newton sosilly.
Lily King, thank you so much forbeing here.

Lily King (47:50):
Oh, thank you so much.
It was so fun.
I wanna go for another hour.

I know we certainly could.
Everyone go get your copy ofHeart The Lover.
It is out now.
Wherever you get your books andenjoy the gorgeous, if not
vulgar packaging that it comesin.
Thanks, Lily.

Lily King (48:10):
Thank you.
Bye.

I.
Dustin Tao, welcome to Gay'sReading.

Dustin Thao (48:20):
Hi.
Thank you for having me.

Thank you for being my guest gay reader today.
Such a, an honor.
I am so excited for you to tellthe people about your book, but
before you do, I have to know,what are you reading?

Actually, I am in the middle of Teo Jenkin re's
newest book atmosphere.
So I'm, I've crossed like the150 page mark.
Into the romance section.
It's a PHI Um, and I'm reallyloving it so far.
I'm like, of course I think foreveryone Taylor Jenkin to read
is like an Autobi author, andshe definitely is.

(48:57):
She definitely is for me.
And the thing about her, thisspecific book is apparently it's
supposed to really make you cryat the end, but what I've read
so far it's I really enjoy it sofar, but there's i'm not there
yet, but, so I started readingreviews, which I like to do, and
the review says, oh no, it'sgoing to hit you at the end.
And which like I'm prepared forbecause I always go into a book

(49:18):
saying this is not gonna make mecry, even though she's done it
before with Evelyn Hugo, whichis probably Three favorite books
of all time.

oh.

that it's going to happen.

Okay.
Are you, do you say, I doubtthis book is gonna make me cry
because you're not an easycrier?

I am not an easy crier.
Um, yeah, the last book, I wouldsay that it I feel like it only
happens once in a blue moon.
I would say once every, three orfour years.
The last one, people often ask,they like to ask me, what's the
last book that me cry?
And for sure it still is shortstory.
The paper Menagerie Kevin l.

Oh.

It is it's one of those things again where
everyone online, everyone onTwitter was saying, this book
is, this short story will makeyou cry so hard.
But the thing about it, it'sonly like 15 pages.
And so I went in there thinkingthere's no way any person could
convince anyone me to cry inless than like in 15 pages.

(50:18):
And

short.

so you go in as a challenge.
And at the end I was, I've nevercried harder in any book.
Even Bridge Toia, which is likethe first book that like, like I
remember that got me into likesad books.
I would say like that short 15page short story.
The paper imaginary is sobeautifully done.
And every now and then I go backand I reread it just to

(50:44):
understand like how he did this.
Yeah, and I imagine that's howpeople enter my books, they're
like, it's not gonna work.
It's not gonna work.

I love that you may or may not have realized
that you just, like pseudopopped your collar whilst saying
that

no,

people do when they go into my books,

I did.
No, Probably like a nervous tickif anything.

funny.
No, I loved that.
That's so funny.
I almost wish we can we shoulddo like a follow up conversation
for me to go read the shortstory and then

Oh my gosh.

tell you whether or not I cried.
What's so funny though is youjust said Bridge to Terra Bethia
was the book that got you intosad books.
So is that like a.
Is it a style, a book you love?
Do you go into a book likewanting to cry?
This is, this feels veryspecific, Dustin.

It does.
And it's so funny'cause peoplelike to ask me.
That's another question, like,why do you write, why do you
like sad books so much?
And like I always say that Igenuinely, it's not that I go
looking like it's not that I golooking for sad books, Happens
to be the ones that I rememberthe most.

Oh, that's interesting.

it's the stories that like I guess have the most
lasting impact.
Because I always believe as awriter, I believe that to grieve
over a character is to knowthat, you loved them and that
they felt real to you.
And I think that's one of theChallenges of writing is to make

(52:14):
a person within a book feel likea friend or a neighbor or
someone you know.
And when that person dies in thebook.
It feels that you've lost him inreal life.
And I don't believe like a lotof authors can execute it
perfectly, if And so I always goin wondering like with that type

(52:34):
of mindset.

I have a similar thought, but about books making
me laugh because I think it'sreally hard.
Similar to tears without tone,without, additional texture to
make you laugh just from readingsomething on the page.
And there are.
A handful of books that come tomind where I remember just like

(52:56):
laughing out loud, prettyconsistently.
And similarly, I have a handfulof books that I remember really
crying at the end of a book.

no, I totally agree with you on humor.
Humor is also just aschallenging.
Like you have to be like acomedian in real life, telling a
good joke

I, yeah.

in a book is like writing, like standup, and
that's something like one day Iguess bucket list is do one
standup set and see how thatgoes.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Do you consider yourself to be funny or is that
just an aspiration?

I Would, I it's one of those things where you can't
say that you yourself are funny.
Someone else has to say it.
It's like saying, I might aswell say I'm a nice guy.
You know what I mean?
It's that's I hope that it'sfunny and I would say that I
hope I'm funny.
I hope the jokes land.
Will say I will say onto like mynewest book that's coming out in
two weeks this month.

(53:50):
you found Oliver is, uh, thebook that is the funniest is
It's most entertaining and Ifeel like there was a shift, I
will say, as I was last yearwhen my second book came out, I
went on tour and and it was aninternational one.
It was fun, it was actually myfirst ever tour and I always had
this mindset.

(54:11):
They're like, oh, everyone,love, you've reached Sam.
It blew up on TikTok.
It like sold a million copies.
Everyone must want sad booksfrom me, they want every book to
become even sadder.
And that was the second book.
And it was like, um, I probablykilled more people than I
should.
And then and I, and people askedme what I'm working on, I said,
and working on Oliver's story,which In the revisions of, and

(54:34):
everyone was said to me thoughwe don't want it to be that sad.
Like, where's our happy ending?
We want things to work out andcome together and we don't want
killing off all of our favoritecharacters.
And I said, so you got, wait aminute.
I paused.
I was like, pause.
So you don't want it more sad?
And they're like, the entireaudience was like, no, stop

(54:54):
killing people.
And so I, so I was like, okay.
Like I'm glad I got to, that'sone of the nice things about
meeting readers in person Seeingwhat they want, what they have
to say in their opinions becauselike you.
As everyone, social media,influencer, author, you have an
imaginary audience that you arelike talking to inside your
head.
And to see them in real life andsee that they're like they're

(55:15):
wanting something else from you,which was nice and refreshing.
And so Oliver, I will say thoughis I say now,'cause they do
want, I want this like happilyever after.
And I say technically it's not ahappily ever after.
But is the happiest of the threethat I've written because it's
harder.
It's harder than I thought.

(55:35):
always said that for me, happyendings are unrealistic.
You know?
It's like, when does your crushever like you back?
Let's be honest.
pivoting.

unpack that?
Do you have, do you.
For the listeners, what is you,what is your elevator pitch for,
you've found Oliver?

Oh, so you found Oliver, for those who don't
know, is the spinoff of you forH Sam and it takes place exactly
One year later after a yearafter Sam's death, and it falls.
His best friend Oliver, who werealize.
Has still been texting him afterall this time, even though he

(56:15):
doesn't get a response.
And one day on the anniversaryof Sam's death, Oliver makes a
decision to delete Sam's number.
And as he's doing this, heaccidentally calls it instead
and someone else picks up thephone.
And he realizes in that momentthat this stranger has been

(56:35):
reading every message he sentover this past year.
Which basically says everythinghe's felt about Sam, all his,
all the things he never got tosay.
eventually those two continuetexting each other and slowly
they developed this connectionand eventually decide to meet

(56:55):
up.
But they realize that they livein different timelines.
So it's a time slip story.
I've always wanted to write andit's also is a standalone, so
you don't have to read Sambefore it.

I'm about 80% into you found Oliver.
And so I don't know how it ends,but I do know that it does stand
alone.

Yeah.

And I

Okay.
Okay,

wish I wasn't talking to you so I

not at the end.
not at the end yet, so let meknow.
I always like, my favorite partsabout writing a book is writing
the ending This book followsOliver, which the best friend,
but one thing I do want to sayis that I think it's different
from the others is Oliver is myfirst, I hope, likable
character.
He's fun, he's funny, he'sflirty as opposed to characters

(57:52):
like Julie.
So the thing about Julie is is,she's famously unlikable, It's
canonized, I would say, becausethe first week I always tell the
story, the first week thatyou've reached down came out
literally first week.
I've never done an event.
I was, went to a book festival,my first ever panel, and the
panel was called the Unlikable.
I was put in, I was put in witha bunch of fantasy authors, and

(58:17):
it was just me about my book ongrief.
And then the moderator goes, sowho's the villain of your story?
And everyone's oh, thisassassin, this like evil wizard
who kills everyone.
And it comes to me and I just goI guess it's like my main
character, Julie.
And then well.

(58:38):
What about her?
And I said her boyfriend dies.
And the moderator goes how doesthat make her the villain?
And I go I guess she just didn'ttake it very well.
And so that of course Julie'sthe way she mourns and grieves
is am mirror of the way that Iagree.
So it's like a piece of me.
And I did freak out likethinking oh my God, I wrote a

(59:00):
character that everybody hated.
But over time I I, and Irealized those were, but those
are just certain amount ofopinions that I was so focused
on.
'cause eventually I got moremessages, dms from people saying
never connected more to acharacter and I've lost a person
in my life.
And I did know how to express itinto words until I read your
book.
I and I saw myself.
So it's kinda like that is Ithink why I kind of gravitate

(59:23):
towards these more charactersand not necess, it's not
necessarily like a made foreveryone.
And I will say I went into mysecond book with this challenge
of okay, I'm gonna write alikable character.
And for Eric in my second book,and he was the one that cared as
closest to me.
It's based off, like personallife, personal, my personal
experience in like gay culture,living in Chicago and based off

(59:48):
of real things.
And everyone turns out he's ununlikeable too because, and then
what the critique for him is howdoes, how could someone make
decisions that are just sostupid?
This is unbelievable.
I was like, oh yeah, it'sfiction.
But yeah.

Jason Blitman (01:00:02):
totally fiction.
I didn't make any of thesedecisions ever.
that you say that because notdissimilar from what you were
saying about a happy ending,being unrealistic, I think.
What does a quote unquotelikable character even mean?
And what is and is thatrealistic for a character who is
flawed and who is on a journeyof self-discovery?

(01:00:25):
Because that is also just howwe're describing a person,
right?
I think we're all on our ownjourneys, and I think, I don't
know I don't want that to comeacross as me saying we're all
just unlikable creatures, butmaybe we are.

Dustin Thao (01:00:39):
I know.
I agree.
If a character is too perfect,that makes no wrong decision.
They don't feel real to me.
You Of my own friends as some ofthe terrible mistakes they've
made regarding dating or dating.
Like you, like I always say wealways have that friend that
used you the same story aboutthe same guy.
Just wanna shake him and go,we've had this conversation,

Are you ever that friend.

Yes, but I am healing and had a character
development,

and I did not mean that as a gotcha question.
I meant that as a embracing thatwe're all flawed.

it's, It's a good question.
And I will say, of course, goeswithout saying my books, they're
in the realm of magical realism,and they are of course works of
fiction.
But I think like some of thebest stories come from things
that are true.
And it's the same in this bookas my others is like I still

(01:01:35):
pull from real experiences Imade this kind of funny decision
to name some of the charactersafter my exes.
And I had done it once.
I had done it once in my secondbook.
And in this book it's'cause I'mbad with names and I'll just

(01:01:56):
fill in a name to the peoplearound me.
And sometimes they just stick.
So there are three X's and you

that's why your characters end up being
unlikable because

but they're real.
I do, I will say for those who Idon't have the book with me,
interestingly enough, but thelast line of my acknowledges, my
acknowledgements is I I thankall my exes And I say if you
stumble across this book andthink you saw your name, no, you
didn't.

No you didn't.
They definitely did not.
Oh, that's so funny.
If the chapter of your liferight now had a title, what
would it be?

My life currently.
Let's see.
I, I, what's funny is I do thinkof my life.
In chapters or eras.
And I guess right now I, so Isaw this TikTok and it's what's
funny is it's about it talksabout certain people and how
they imagine their lives andthey talk about themselves and

(01:02:57):
the third person, right?
Almost like a persona.
And I realized, oh my God, I dothis.
At first I thought it was silly.
I was like, oh, that's so silly.
Who does?
I said, wait a minute, I dothis.
And right now I call this eraNew York, Dustin.
So there's, which is my New Yorkera.
I've been living for four yearsand before that I lived four
years in Chicago when I wasdoing my PhD and I So that was

(01:03:19):
Chicago, Dustin.
And so I guess this chaptercurrently that I'm living in.
New York, Dustin, I'm in my, um,high rise apartment.
You know, I, I will say it's mymost social chapter, um, but I'm
still in my single chapter aswell.

Uhhuh,

i'm in my single chapter it's very social I'm
going out a lot and I meet a lotof new friends and it's my first
time I would say, like Being apart of a gay community, which
is so easy to do in New YorkCity.
I will say, A part of everywherethat I lived I would say
Chicago, Dustin, like he, heprobably had that was one of the

(01:03:59):
worst chapters just because I, Ialways say I, I hate Chicago,
but my friends say, Dustin, youlived in Chicago during the
pandemic, which is true.
So I, I

I was gonna, I, 'cause I also went to school in
Chicago and I loved Chicago.

Yeah.
So we had and,

lived in Lakeview, which, you know a
stones throw from Boystown.
I.

yeah, exactly.
My second book has a specificBoystown chapter.
To go like right beforeeverything, closed down.
Yeah.
My experience with Chicago wasso different.
My second book actually takesplace.
Oh, I will say this.
A lot of my books when I picksettings are inspired by exactly
where I live or have lived.
One was Washington, small town,middle of nowhere, Washington

(01:04:42):
state surrounded by mountains,which is how where I was born
and grew up.
And that was, you've reached Samand my second book was
originally set in New York Cityand it was because that's where
I wanted to live, but I was inChicago at the time and I hated
Chicago.
But as I was writing it what Idid like in this time where

(01:05:03):
you're not allowed to hang outwith anyone was I just wandered
the streets of Chicago.
I wandered around the ChicagoTheater, I wa and and that'cause
that was the first places to gobecause they kept the light on
and it felt like at least itfelt alive and that felt people
were inside and I learned to.
Loved Chicago by having theseimaginary experiences in my head
of what I could do.

(01:05:24):
The book became set in Chicago.
And as as you may know when Haris here is about falling in love
with a guy who isn't even there.
And so I'm in New York era rightnow, which is fun and I think
that translates into Oliver

Yeah.
Oh, I love that.

Yeah, but I, my hope

for your New York chapter.

yeah it's fun.
And I'm hoping we're gonna moveinto a romance chapter.
I think,'cause what's funny iseveryone says, Dustin, like, how
are you single?
You're a romance author.
And I go, do you guys read mybooks?
The first guy's dead.
The second guy is imaginary.
And the third guy lives in adifferent timeline.
And they're like, oh, there'sgoing to be a happy ever after.

(01:06:07):
Soon

Should we, can we manifest?
What are we looking for?
What are we could put things outinto the world.
We want a loving, committedrelationship.
I have lofty aspirations ofbeing a matchmaker.
So you'll, you could fill out myquestionnaire.

oh my gosh.
I would love to,

I don't really have a questionnaire, but if I
did I would happily put you inmy roster of people that I would
help find love for.

Okay, this is our matchmaking service.

I know that's,

I'll be a

a dream.
I know.
I do.
I love, love.
What can I say?
Do you consider yourselfromantic?

Yes, I would hope so.
I think I've been on, I will sayI've been on three dates this
year, as in like, uh, threedifferent people.
I do enjoy planning dates.
and, um, because something isabout my books is I always say
that like I have charactersexperiencing experience, things
that I wish I could, you know,My dream is like to go to Japan,

(01:07:06):
for example.
So in book two I gotta write achapter where they got to go to
Japan and do, and I did wrote, Ispent research like a week
researching all the things thatI wish I could do and.
Yeah.
So in Oliver's story, bet withlove story between him and this
astronomy student named Benevery time they got a meetup, I

(01:07:27):
gotta plan this cute date forthem.
And that was fun to do.
And I think that's Of me comingthrough.
'cause end of the day, my booksare romances at its core.
So yeah.
I'd like to still think I'mromantic.

Yeah.
All right.
Anyone who's listening who wantsto have a great date planned,
you can emailhello@gaysreading.com.
We can make a littleintroduction.
Oh my God, I love it.
Dustin Tout, thank you so muchfor being my guest gay reader
today, and I am so excited foreveryone to check out you've
found Oliver.

(01:08:01):
Thank you for being here.
Have a great rest of your day.

course.
It was so nice chatting withyou.
Lily.
Dustin, thank you so much forbeing here.
Everyone, a pleasure.
Thank you.
Have a wonderful rest of yourday.
I will see you next week.
Bye.

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