Megha Majumdar (A Guardian and a Thief) feat. Brandon Taylor, Guest Gay Reader

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Gaze reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what, andwhy.
Anyone can listen.
Comes we're spoiler free Readingfrom politic stars to book club
picks where the curious mindscan get their picks.
So you say you're not gay.

(00:24):
Well that's okay.
There's something for everyone.
Gays rating.
Hello and welcome to Gay'sReading.
I'm your host, Jason Blitman,and on today's episode I have
Megha Majumdar talking to meabout her new book, A Guardian

(00:46):
and a Thief, which of course hasbeen, nominated for the Kirkus
Prize, the National Book Award.
Um, came out.
Like a bang and only today isgetting released.
So, so excited for her.
And my guest, gay reader todayis Brandon Taylor and his book
Minor Black Figures also comesout today.

(01:08):
Both of their bios can be foundin the show notes and I, the,
this episode, the two of them.
It is an embarrassment ofriches, y'all.
I love that I got to talk tothem, each really terrific
writers in their own right.
And, uh, yeah, I'm excited foryou, for you to hear this
conversation.
It's a busy week for gay'sreading, episode today.

(01:29):
Tomorrow the 15th is, alsoanother episode because we
announced the November GazeReading Book Club Pick through
Stora, and my episode with thatauthor drops tomorrow.
And then on Friday we have a,what are you reading episode And
my guests plural for that.
Um.

(01:49):
Are really awesome and it's sucha great, really fun conversation
too.
So super busy week here on Gay'sReading, and I am as always,
really glad to have you herewith us, um, because we're
dropping so many episodes, Ihighly recommend subscribing and
liking and following whereveryou get your podcast so that
you'll be the first to know whena new episode drops.

(02:12):
You could follow us on socialmedia.
We are at gay's reading over onInstagram and.
I say this because it is anindie podcast to help the
algorithm, to help other peoplefind gaze reading.
If you can take a moment to, asI just said, like, and
subscribe, but leave a review,preferably five stars, and if
you have something nice to say,please feel free to do so.

(02:35):
I've been getting some emailsand some posts and some dms.
And it means so much because.
I am not used to working in amedium where I don't get
immediate gratification, uh,with a background in theater.
I'm so used to, you know,sitting in, in an audience with
people.
So it's always nice to hear fromthe folks who have listened, and

(02:56):
so thank you to all of you whohave done so.
These episodes are over onYouTube.
Books are out now, and theinformation about the All Story
Book Club and all the otherthings can be found in the show
notes.
If you're new to Gay's reading,there's a huge back catalog of
episodes that I hope you take amoment to check out.

(03:17):
There is some fantasticconversations and those are all
the things.
Without further ado, here isMegha Majumdar and Brandon
Taylor

Jason Blitman (03:29):
How's your day so far?

Megha Majumdar (03:31):
It's pretty good.
It's a little chaotic becausemy.
4-year-old is at preschool, butI have a seven week old baby as
well.
So, He has no routine.
Um, my parents are visiting, sothey are watching him right now.

(03:51):
Um, and my husband just had togo back to work starting
yesterday.
So just a lot of differentrhythms that we are getting used
to.

And you're about to give birth to a different
baby.
What a time for you, Mecca.
I can't believe it.
I am very honored for you totake your time to spend it with
me on Kay's reading.
Welcome.

No, thank you so much for having me.
I'm really happy to be here.

I am so excited to have you here.
I we'll talk about the book in asecond.
Yeah.
You're what the whole parentingwhilst.
Doing 800 other things, a thingis not a part of my life yet.
And so I am, it's very admirablethat you're able to, or at least

(04:40):
the perception, is that you'reable to juggle all the things.

I feel like, you know, people, people do it.
I mean, People do it and.
More chaotic circumstances.
This feels, I think when I'mfeeling grumpy, I feel like, oh,
this is a lot.
But I try to be grateful thatthis is a lot, Yeah.

Is there anything in particular that sort of
traditionally makes you feelgrumpy?
Or is it just the regular woesof life?

I think what makes me feel grumpy is feeling
like my time is being wasted.
I'm very prickly about how I usemy time and when I have a
perception that my time is beingwasted, I feel very grumpy.
Does that resonate with you atall?

It resonates so much with me and also.
I'm like I'm rummaging throughmy brain like what I do and
don't wanna talk about or giveaway and like the order in which
we talk about things.
But what I will say, bothrelated to the book and related
to life in general and exactlywhat you're talking about,

(05:51):
something that has been on mymind a lot recently is how time
is a thief.

Yeah.

So it's already a thief, and so if it's also
stealing other things from you,then like it's even more
frustrating and of course an

Yeah.
That's a beautiful way to put itthough.
That time is a thief.
It does.
It does.
Steal everything awayeventually.
Yeah.

Yeah.
Yeah.
And I feel is a bit of anundercurrent in the book, in, in
the book, A Guardian and a Thiefthat is out now, wherever you
get your books.
What is your elevator pitch forthe book?
I.

A guardian and a thief is a novel, which is set
in a near future, kta India,which is my hometown, where I'm
from, and.
It's set in a situation of foodscarcity and severe, um, heat.
And in this situation, twofamilies who are trying to

(06:56):
protect their own children comeinto conflict.

Yeah, me is reminiscent of Katie Kid's
audition.
It is

I need to read audition.

You do.

Okay.

It's a terrific book.
And it is also reminiscent ofChris Boland's The reason why
I'm making these comparisons isbecause they're all three.
Relatively slight books thatcould be read in a sitting or
two.
But pack such a punch.
And there is a generalsimplicity about their, like

(07:32):
basic storyline, but themetaphor and the meaning behind
everything is so deep.
And there's, and it makes youasks, it makes you ask a lot of
questions in all of these books.
So that's they're all these likeinteresting.
Cousins of each other, much likeour glasses.

I love that you mentioned havoc because I just
met Chris a few days ago.
We did an event together and weexchanged copies of our books.
So I just got a copy of Havoc.

That is so weird.
That's weird.
And have it came out a while agoat this point.
So it's so weird that you shouldhave met Chris.
He's darling.
I love him.

he was amazing.

But yeah, so it'll be interesting.
You'll read it and be like,Jason, what the hell are you
thinking?
I don't know what you're talkingabout, but I also think maybe
you'll understand.

I am excited to read it.

And also there's something about at the end of
the day, the book is a moralitytale.
Thinking back to your childhood,I guess were there, did the
concept of fables.
Have or folktales have an impacton you as a young person, or are
there pieces that you remember?

That is a beautiful question.
I don't think anybody has everasked me that question before,
but now that you're asking it,I'm thinking.
Back to folktales that I used toread, and I'm sure I read a lot
of, I read a lot of fairytales.
I read a lot of Hansel andGretel and Heidi and that kind

(09:10):
of thing.
And I'm sure that thecombination of thinking through
morals, what is the right thingto do?
Thinking through protection ofyour loved ones and thinking
through really grim situationswhere the worst can happen.
It's all coming together for me.
Wow.
You that was just a questionwhich unlocked something.

Oh, I'm very glad to hear that.
I actually, I was readingthrough some some Indian
folktales yesterday because Iwas like, I guess I wasn't
really my, my fable andfolktale, history is, slightly
unclear in my brain of whatstories are from where.

(09:55):
And I guess it makes total sensethat there are versions of the
same stories that take placearound the world using different
cultural touchpoints fromdifferent places around the
world.
But on the very first page ofthis book one of our
protagonists ma talks about.

(10:15):
A thief that she could see fromher window or where in theory
but also is described as athief.
So on page one, you are reallysetting us up for this duality.
What is that like basically onpage one telling us that you

(10:39):
can't trust this character.

I don't think that's true though, because I
think I.
I am trying to set up on pageone is that you do trust this
character and also look, here'sthis hidden aspect of her, which
will be revealed, you know, so.
She's not, she's not set up As avillain, and she's not set up as

(11:06):
a saint.
She is just a mother.
And think about the people inyour life whom you trust, who
also probably hold secrets.
Yes.
You are dying to say something.

I am dying to say something.
Because it's like a, I feel likeI'm projecting the, the rest of
my read on page one, having readthe whole book, but re what?
Taking what you just said, Ithink really what you're doing
is.
up a distrust in our perception.

That's a great read.
A, a kind of.
Destabilization so that you donot expect characters to be one
or the other.

Exactly.
Right, right, right.
So, So you're, it is not aboutthe trust of your of a
character.
It is about.
What do we, can we believe whatwe're reading?
Can we believe what we'reseeing?
What does the world, both in thebook, but also in the worlds
that we live in?

Yeah.
Wow.
That is such a perceptive read.
Thank you for reading soattentively and generously and,
yeah.

My pleasure.
But we're, this is also, Iclearly said the wrong thing
first, and we unpacked it.
We, and we're having a literarydiscussion right now.
That's what it's all about.
Okay, so we touched a little biton, thief, but what the book is
called A Guardian, end of Thief.
What does it mean to you to be aGuardian?

Great question.
You know, I.
So one thing I will say is thatfor a long time when I was
trying to write this book, I wasactually following a child
character.
So for a long time, the maincharacter was a child who was
maybe 10 or 11 years old, and IFollowing this child through

(12:59):
this climate wrecked world.
This world of food scarcitywhere this child was trying to
find food and I was trying tomake that plot work And it just
wasn't working.
It was failing in all kinds ofways.
And then I had my son in 2021,and that really.

(13:23):
The force of love that you feelfor your child, Ferocity of that
love, it made me think about whois this child's mother?
What happens if I think morecarefully about the guardians in
this book?
And I think to me, the meaningof being a guardian became

(13:47):
really complex because I thinkwe might assume that being a
guardian is about love andprotection and these are noble
ideals.
And therefore when they aretranslated into acts, they're
noble acts.
But I started thinking aboutwhat happens if.

(14:09):
This love gains a manifestation,which is vicious.
What do you do when that idealin practice becomes something
mean or sly or harmful?
What if your love for yourfamily comes up against?

(14:32):
The love that other people havefor their families, or think
about yourself as a human beingin your community and yourself
as a human being within yourfamily.
What if those identities clash?
What do you do then?

And it's also, there is an element of every man
for himself, but there's also abut that seems very selfish and
some of these people.
It's every family for themselfand what they would do to
protect those they are guardiansof or those they love.

(15:09):
We, how do I wanna ask thisquestion?
There is this differentcircumstances.
Make us different versions ofourselves in front of different
people.
How does that manifest for youin your real life?

I.

When are you a guardian?
When are you a thief?
When are you different versionsof Mecca that we may not see
ever?

I think so one of the things that I was
thinking about is we make thesechoices, right?
So I have the sense of myself asa moral person, I want to do the
right thing.
But I also feel that I makechoices that are limited by the

(15:58):
networks that I live within.
I participate in systems whichexploit other people, think
about where our fruits andvegetables come from, and think
about the systems within whichwe participate, where people are
exploited and made to work forvery little money.

(16:18):
reading this article a while agoabout shrimp boats in Southeast
Asia and how a lot of the shrimpin the US comes from Southeast
Asia, and the people who work onthese boats are often not paid,
Just forced to work on theseboats.
And I like shrimp.
I eat shrimp you so at whatpoint does my.

(16:40):
Sense of myself as a moralparticipant in this world,
collapse and give way tosomething else, so I buy the bag
of shrimp, dismissing the longchain of people who have brought
it to me What I want.
I privilege my comfort.
I privilege my wish to eatsomething delicious.

(17:02):
And have a meal with my family,Without asking too many
questions, and so that's justone example.
But think about all thedecisions that we make, like the
choices that we make, where wechoose to live, how we choose to
live, who we support, what webuy, what we read, what we
subscribe to.
There are so many layers ofmoral choices underneath all of

(17:28):
these.
Decisions.
And so I'm very aware that Imake decisions that I probably
if really pressed, I cannotdefend, I make them,

It's interesting that you bring up the like, long
chain of getting to the shrimp.
Because my husband and I, it'sfunny that we're having this
conversation today because wewere just looking at an electric
vehicle yesterday and thenumbers didn't work out for us
to buy it.
We have been hemming and hawingbecause Teslas are so cheap

(18:04):
right now.
And we morally don't want to buya Tesla, but we are trying to do
the mental math of if we buy itused and the money doesn't go to
Elon Musk, does that make itbetter?
But if we're, if we use a Teslacharging station, then he, that

(18:27):
money does go to him.
But because that chain isshorter.
It is easier for more people tosee the moral dilemma, but
because the chain isn't quite aslong, because really then you
start thinking about it andyou're like, okay, but what
about oil companies?
And it's you talking about thesystems in which we participate.

(18:50):
It's okay, I also.
Buy, produce at Trader Joe's,but I don't know the morality of
where that comes from, so it'slike you're talking about
shrimp.
Okay.
If you choose to buy the shrimpat the grocery store that uses
solar to, to make the, to lighttheir warehouse, does that make

(19:12):
it slightly morally better thannot.
But the shrimp farming is stilla problem.
So it's very complicated.

It is so complicated, and you brought up
oil.
There was this magnificentnovel, uh, few years ago by
Lydia Keesling called Mobility,um, which is all about a woman
who is trying to.
Figure out right or wrong ofworking within the oil industry

(19:44):
and weighing the kind of livingshe can make while participating
in this system, which shedoesn't agree with.
Thought that was a fantasticbook.
Also about very similar kindadilemmas.
And so We make these choices inour daily lives and what fiction
lets me do is put huge pressureon characters, right?

(20:05):
The That we don't face right nowyet.

Do you feel that pressure personally?

I don't feel it yet, but I feel that it might be
coming you A future where, theeffects of climate change are
very present We do have to thinkabout things like, how will
agriculture be affected?
We already saw with the eggshortage a few months ago here
in the US it was such a surrealthing to go to the grocery store

(20:40):
and, a carton of eggs was, Ithink 10 or$11

if it was in stock,

If it was in stock exactly, We would go to
Trader Joe's and they had limitsof, I think you could buy two
per person and they would getsold out if you didn't go first
thing in the morning.
So that kind of shortage.
And then what happens, peoplestart buying two'cause they want
Yep.

yes.
And then of course the follow upis what are you doing with two
cartons of eggs?
Why do you need those?
Like suddenly, if someone tellsyou can't have more than x,
like, suddenly, desperately needthat number, which makes zero
sense,

Yeah, what if you just, wanna eat seven eggs
for breakfast?
Jason,

well.
It makes me think of Guan andBeauty and the Beast.
In his song, he sings about howevery morning he eats five dozen
eggs or whatever.
It's oh, I guess Guan needs allthose eggs.

beauty And the Beast.
Oh my God, I haven't thoughtabout that for a while.

that's so funny.
Talking about the thepresentness.
Of facing these challengesbecause at the moment climate
change is, feels removed to somedegree.
Yeah.
You're like, oh, okay.

(21:59):
It's warmer longer or colderlong, whatever.
But it's not, you're not lookingaround and fires aren't burning
along the Hudson on a dailybasis.
So it's, there's a.
It's slightly, it's your face.
What you're facing is slightlydifferent.
It, all of this also too makesme think about just Robinhood

(22:21):
and the fallacy of Robinhood asa concept.
And it's like Robinhood is doingsomething bad for something
good.
Does that make it better?
And I don't, and I think theanswer is no.
But also it's but is it breakingdown a system?

(22:43):
I dunno.
These are all of the, I've beensitting with this book for a
long time and I am, it's apuzzlement, I tell you.

I'm glad that you are.
Sitting with it, and I'm gladthat it's worth sitting with
because, with the book like thestate of Puzzlement is great.
You know, it's kind What youwant is for somebody to join you
in that puzzlement, for somebodyto join you in that state of

(23:12):
asking questions and.
Feeling that the questions beingasked are vital, It is
meaningful to you to ask thequestions and think about a
present which is not yetpresent, but may well become our
reality very soon.
So Yeah maybe we could think of,books as invitations to
puzzlement.

(23:32):
I love that.

I think that is where the comparison to audition
and have it come from is they'reit's again, simple in its big
picture, but also very deepoverall and makes you really
think a lot.
In the book it said honesty is alie.
Lies are the lifeblood of theworld.

(23:54):
What does that mean to you andhow did you, how did that come
to you?

I was thinking a lot about how as a child we're
taught, to be honest, and we'retaught that being honest is a
trait which will carry you farin life.
And then you grow up and youunderstand that the people in

(24:24):
power.
Actually occupy those positionsof power and, amass great wealth
because they do not followvalues like honesty at all.
Um, there's a great deal oflying happening among people who

(24:47):
are in power all over the world.
And you think about.
What is the value of what do wedo with the gap between how we
tell our children the world ishow they should behave how they
should treat others.
And then you grow up and you seethat well, the people who are
quote unquote victorious in oursociety, the people who appear

(25:10):
to be on top and have greatpower or proximity to power.
They're the ones who discardedthose values.
So why are we teaching ourchildren that the world works in
a way that it actually doesn'twork?
Or is it that we want them tosee what the ideal is so that
they can tilt the world in thatdirection away from how it is

(25:36):
now?
What do we do with that?

That as a concept stresses me out so much because
it puts so much pressure ongetting.
Heard mentality, like it's youneed a lot in order to tilt the
world.
There's another quote in thebook that just says, take what
you want, or others will takeit.
And it's but again, it's amorality question of but.

(26:03):
But I want there to be enoughfor everyone.
But if I don't take what I want,then I'm not gonna get it.
It's a zero sum game.
And frankly, if I leave it thereand someone else doesn't take
it, then it's left on the table.
So it's this whole stupid, not,it's not stupid, but like it's
becomes this real moralquandary.
And that's, one of the firstthings I said to you is this
book is a morality tale, right?

Yeah.
So glad that you picked up onthese lines and they meant
something to you.
Because I think those lines areme thinking through the many
contradictions that each of uscontain.

Yeah.

In what situations will we be generous
and kind to others, and in whatsituations will we be selfish
and ungenerous?
Um, and which.
Which way benefits us or isbenefit even the wrong way to
think about it?

(27:03):
There is the way, there's theway in which we want to live and
there's the way in which theworld is set up and the world
kind of puts pressure on us tobehave in particular matters.
And it's hard to know what theright thing to do is.
How do we make those choices?

And it's interesting too,'cause it then
there's also like the differencebetween want and need and, need
versus something even greaterthan a need.
Something that's, it's asurvival necessity.
I guess like a need versus anecessity.
Yeah.
Which like again, circles meback to just thinking about

(27:43):
fables and foot tails.
For me it's just like thetortoise and the hare always
rings true to me.
Slow and steady wins the race.
And it's like you can't, youhave to worry about yourself and
you can't think about the otherthings that the other people are
doing.
And yeah, it had me justthinking a lot about these sort
of basic things that we learn asyoung people.

(28:06):
That we don't always see theminterpreted on a larger scale.
And I think this is a version ofa simple thing that we might
learn in childhood at a scalethat we can understand in a real
life situation.
It's not about a tortoise and ahair running a race.

That's a good way to put it.
And It's so interesting to hearyou talking about folk tales and
fables in relation to questionsof morality because that also
makes me think about the ways inwhich art is always wrapped up
in these questions and The.
When we talk about wants andneeds and survival, um, I think

(28:49):
lurking underneath thosequestions is also an
understanding of how.
There is community that liftsyou up.
There is somebody who is playingmusic even on a dire day.
There, there are painters makingtheir art even in situations

(29:11):
which are really grim.
And that's something that Iwanted to have be true in the
book also is, even in reallygrim.
Crises, there are still momentsof joy and laughter and beauty
and this is something that wethought a lot about.
And I think a while ago therewas this kind of spate of essays

(29:35):
of people considering whether tohave children of.
How everything in the world is,and specifically also climate
change.
What kind of future will theyhave?
And I think reading thoseessays, I always felt that there
have been crises in the past,but there is still.

(29:59):
Laughter there.
There are still jokes.
There's still humor.
Still a nice cloud in the sky.
There's still the joy of havingegg.

Yeah.
It's funny, we, I was just inconversation with an author
yesterday who.
Trying to think when thisepisode comes out.
I don't know that it'll beannounced yet, but it's the
author of my Gays reading bookClub Pick for November, and the
book is, takes Place in the 17thcentury Amsterdam.
And I was saying to her how Icouldn't believe how funny the

(30:31):
book was.
And we were talking about how welike.
People were always sarcastic,people were always funny.
There was always a beautifulcloud in the sky right there.
Just because you think about astuffy piece of art from the
17th century as this likesnapshot of a moment, that

(30:52):
doesn't mean that.
There wasn't a whole lifegetting lived beyond that, and I
think this is an interestingexample of that.
And frankly, I think part ofwhat we are struggling with as a
society right now is that we aregoing about our daily life while
the horrible things arehappening, and in the future,
right?
We'll see movies or read booksabout those horrible things

(31:13):
happening, and forget about ushaving a frivolous conversation
about morality in the meantime.

Exactly.
You know how like you go to amuseum and you see an ancient
like statue from some ancientcivilization or See the cave
art.
And I hope I'm not sayingsomething ignorant here because
I actually don't know too muchabout that stuff, but I always
wonder when I see them.
What if they were just joking?

(31:42):
What if they were just like,let's draw an antelope for fun.
Let's draw a hilarious lookingfunny animal.
And what if those were jokes?
And here we are trying tointerpret them like, oh, what
did it mean?
What was the culturalsignificance?
What if was just like, a personbeing like, this is hilarious.

Yeah.
This is hilarious.
Or just that's what they feltlike drawing that day or
whatever.
It's, and I think it'sinteresting because as humans,
A, we always want to givemeaning to things, but I think
we forget that it's okay forsome things to just exist.
Okay.
Completely changing the subject.

Okay.

If you had parrots, what would their names
be?

Abba and Beaches.

No.
What else would their names be?
What would their second names?
What would your third and fourthparents' names be?

Honestly, probably like par three and par
four.
I'm so bad at names.

Okay.
What are other bands maybe thatyou love that we could name them
after?

You know where the Abba and Be Gees came from
is I was writing that sectionwhile my son was really little
and f.
For a little while we played himthe, like classical music.
And then we got bored of that.
And then we were like, what elsecan we play him that's melodic
and fun and easy?
And we played him a ton of Abbaand he loved it.

(33:06):
And then we played him Bee Geesand he loved it too.
So I was listening to those inthose days and I was like, huh,
that would be fun if someone wasjust listening to these bands
all the time.
And That's what they named theirparrots.

What would, what are you listening to all the
time?
For your per that was for yourson.
What are you listening to thatyou enjoy?

Oh my God.
I listened to, oh, this is sofunny that you ask because a
couple years ago, if you hadasked me this, I would've said I
don't really have distincttastes in music, but over the
past year I've gone to severalconcerts and I feel like I've
learned that.
I like concerts.
Concerts are fun.
Who knew?

Who knew?
I think a lot of people did, butI'm glad that you're discovering
this.
What did you go to?
What are you loving?

I went to see Odessa.
Have you ever seen them?

No

really good.
I went to see air.
Do you know air?
The French band?

I don't.

They are also really good.
They're just called air, whichis very hard to Google.
Like, why did you nameyourselves?
These what is this name?

That's really funny.

What music do you like?

Oh, all sorts of things.
It's funny that you say, if youask me however many years ago
when I was a kid, I was like, ashow tunes kid or bust.
I was, no other music existed tome.
Now I'm, I went through like a.
Seventies rot yacht, rock era.

What is yacht rock?

I dunno,

Okay.
I will

Like a good seventies band car for car
rides.
I think there's like a likeFleetwood Mac I feel like is a
great

I have never, I know the name, but I don't
music.

I'm one of those people that like.
I don't know any names of songsor bands or anything, but I've
probably heard all the music andI'm like, oh, that's and I had
no idea.
Now I'm getting into just a lotmore interesting contemporary

Hmm.

There was a some song came on my like Spotify
thing the other day where I waslike, I'm shocked at how much
I'm enjoying this song.
It was.
There was like, it was like veryrock and a little rap thrown in
there somewhere.
I was like, rap, who am I?
What's going on?
Anyway, my taste is veryeclectic and has grown and
changed

This is making me regret that, Spotify offered
me.
Three months free of the premiumor whatever, and I kept And now
I regret that I didn't take themupon it.

I'm sure it'll circle back.
They're away.
Everyone's always trying

I need, the ads.

Yeah, exactly.
How did you find joy?
What are things that bring youjoy these days?

Oh, that's such a fun question.
Um, I I like taking walks.
I like taking walks and noticingthings.
I like appreciating people'sgardens and flowers, and some
people have Halloweendecorations up already which I

(36:14):
love.
I love cooking.
I think food has such emotionalcharge and cooking something
delicious for your family orfriends is such an act of.
Care.
And it's also so Much fun justto make something and then it's

(36:35):
gone.
It's a ephemeral.

huh.

I love going

is there a dish that is your go-to or a cuisine
that is your go-to?

I cook the Bengali food that I grew up
with.
So one very simple thing that Ilike cooking is spinach with
eggplant.
It's very simple.
You just saute garlic and thisone spice, I'm not sure what
it's called in English, ngelseeds.

Okay.

Nella.
Yeah, I think that's what it'scalled.
Just garlic and that black seedand spinach and eggplant.
That's it.
It's so good.

Is there anything that you do specific with the
eggplant?

Chop it up and fry it first.
Um, so that it's in littlecubes.
Yeah.

Yeah.

Dunk the whole eggplant in the.

I do didn't think it was that, but I wasn't sure
if it was like, like oui, whereit's just rounded or what,

No, just like, just Good question.
Yeah.
just chop it up little cubes,and then you can kinda mix it
with the spinach.

When it comes to food, I have all, I will always
have all the questions.
Speaking of, there's a person inthe book, there's a seller of
tastes in the book.
What taste would you buy?

I love that would buy orange.
A taste of an orange.

Say more.
Why?

it's such a, it's such a.
Beautiful complex taste.
Isn't it bizarre that it just isavailable in fruit form?

It's funny because I don't, I never really
thought about it.

Do you like oranges,

oranges and I grew up in Florida,

right?

which is very orangey.
But I never really thought aboutit as being something unique.
And I think part of that isbecause of that.

Yeah.
Which taste would you buy?

Why?
Why did I not expect you to askme that?
Ugh, what taste would I buy?
That is a very, it's a goodquestion.
I, I wonder if, I wonder whatthe circumstances would be.

(38:58):
Would I be buying it because Ineeded some nostalgia or comfort
or joy or to freshen my breathor, like I wonder what the
context would be.
I think that would make a bigdifference.

(39:22):
Citrus, that is a good, it's a,makes sense to me.

I love how you're thinking extremely deeply
about it, and I was just like anorange.

I told you, I take these questions very
seriously, especially when itcomes to food.
What taste would I buy?
And also.
Thinking about like the firstthing that comes to mind for me
is like chocolate or somethingsweet.
But when I think about likescratch and sniff, like scratch
and sniff chocolate, it doesn'tsmell good at all.
I would, so that's where I'mlike, oh, that tastes wouldn't

(39:54):
be good.
So I don't want that, but thatdoesn't make any sense.
All that to say, I don't know.
I don't know what I would buy.

Wait, I have to ask you what brings you joy?
It's such a good question.

Not a lot these days.

Fair.
Fair.
Yeah.

I also really going on walks.
I am both.
It is both a blessing and acurse that I get to read as much
as I do.
It is a great escape, but also Ihave to do it with a pencil in
hand.
But interestingly that while itmight feel like work sometimes

(40:36):
part of that.
Is helpful and does bring mejoy.
It brings me joy that I get toread a line in your book and we
could talk about it for 20minutes, so that I, my husband
and I cook, we do a lot of funthings together.
I don't know, it's really hardto find the joy these days.

Yeah.
Yeah, I hear you.

Yeah.
Interestingly, leading intoanother question, joy.
But also it's hard to findlaughter, though I love to make
light of things.
It is said in the book, the bestphilosopher is the one who
laughs and makes others laugh.
Laughing is the most truthfulway of approaching life.

(41:24):
Do you agree?

I am interested in thinking about it.
So that is.
A line stated by one of thecharacters in the book, the
Grandfather, And I'm interestedin thinking about I think we
tend to take, um, seriousness asa truthful way of.
Approaching life, but, and wedismiss laughter as something,

(41:49):
unserious or opposed toseriousness.
But what if there is somethingvery truthful and generous and
beautiful about laughing?
What if laughter acknowledgesthe ways in which we often feel
powerless and allows us to.
Accept it.
What if laughter allows us tomake fun of those who are

(42:12):
powerful, In ways that are verydifficult for them to shut down?
What if laughter allows us tonavigate the difficulties of
everyday life in a situation ofcrisis in a way that is
inalienable cannot be taken awayfrom you?

it's interesting because on one hand, I want to
believe all of that to be true.
And on the other hand, if Ichoose to believe that to be
true, then I'm also choosingthat there has to be a binary
And things can be serious andfunny at the same time,

mm-hmm.

can laugh at the world crumbling around us.
That doesn't mean that we don'ttake it seriously, but we, what
else can we do?
With a lot of theseconversations and book events
that I do in person, I hatetaking it too seriously because

(43:09):
that doesn't mean that the booksaren't serious or good, but like
we go read the book on your owntime let's have a fun
conversation about other things,because these things should
bring us joy and laughter and.
Finding something to hold onto.

I love that.
I love that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And books like I think were.
We constantly discussing rightnow today.
Books allow us a space to thinkwith and think through, right?
They're not necessarilystatements of belief or things

(43:49):
we have to agree with ordisagree with, but I think
they're often just the writerssaying, I'm interested in this
thought.
Are you interested in thisthought?
Yeah.

Absolutely.
And it doesn't have to be, thisis a serious thing.
Take it as gospel.

exactly.
Yeah.

yeah.
The book is about a bajillionthings in its in know, 204 pages
or whatever.
For me.
Among the things at its core isabout fear And who we become in

(44:27):
the face of fear, who we becomein desperate times.
And I, we could have talked anentire hour about fear and what
that means and what that meansto you.
And, among the things that Ithink about a lot lately is the
idea of accidentally manifestinga fear.

(44:53):
Has that ever happened to you ordoes that happen to you?
If you worry about something somuch?
If you're afraid of something somuch that you it's inevitable
that it's gonna happen.

The first thing that comes to mind is very
silly, and you're going to laughat me if I,

Good.
Let's laugh about it.

but, so I am very afraid of cockroaches.
I'm very afraid of cockroaches

So is my husband.
I'm the bug killer in our house.

Yeah.
Well, I'm sure you're, you'reused to them from Florida,
right?
Yeah, I'm so afraid of them.
And then they were really commonin cold kata, and every now and
then a really big one would flyinto my room, horrifying.
And then I moved to the US to goto college and.

(45:42):
Within the first few days oncampus, guess what I see?
Walking across the path in frontof me, a gigantic cockroach.
And it was just like, the onewho is afraid of it is the one
who sees it.
Nobody else sees it.
going to class.
Yeah, but that's what I thoughtof.

That's such an interesting observation too.
It's.
You're not necessarilymanifesting the fear, but
because it is like a piece ofyou so deeply it, you are more
inclined to be the one to see itor experience it because it's
something you're easily

Yes.
You are so alert to it.
Yeah.

Oh, that's so interesting.
And again, I don't wanna unpackthat too much, but as people
read the book, I think that willresonate as well.

What are you afraid of?

Ah, whose show is this?
I have always had a lot ofhealth anxiety

Yeah.

and I, and the more I learn about it, and I've
been on medication for anxietyfor a long time now.
So that has subsided.
But the more I learn about it,the more I talk about it, the
more I realize that everybodydoes.
And that is a thing that we allworry about because just like
space and the ocean, we don'tunderstand a lot of what happens
in our body,

true.
Very true.

yeah, that's like among my bigger fears, I also
have weird, random, terriblethings that happen to me
physically.
So like I have gout, I've gottenkidney stones, I've had shingles
already

You've had shingles.
Whoa.

Yeah, so I'm, I feel like my body is prone to
what the fear, like whateverit's, but here I'm laughing
about it.

You made it through.
Here you are.
I had a horrible illness when Iwas a kid.
And hearing you talk abouthealth anxieties, I think first
of all, you're right, everybodydoes, our, we're somehow in
charge of a body and we don'treally know how it works.
And it's also subject to variousbad things all the time.

(47:50):
But when I was a kid, I had thisstrange illness, which was a
tapeworm cyst in my eye.
Have you ever heard of that?
Yeah, it's bizarre.
It's bizarre.
I never really talk about it,but I'm telling you because
we're just talking about healthstuff, which also never really

Thank you for being vulnerable with me.

But yeah, it was really bad and like it was in my
left eye.
And I was out of school forthree months.
I was just like in bed.
And I listened to a lot of, Ilistened to a lot of I don't
know how to call it in English,like audio theater.

Oh, Uhhuh.

like audio plays.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I listened to a lot of those andthose got me through it.
But yeah, it was so weird.
Tapeworm.

That sounds terrible.
And I'm doing everything in mypower to not rub my eyes right
now because I, that's all Iwanna do.

I think it's, I think it's very hard to get it,
so you're fine.

Yeah.
Well, you made it through.
Everything is fine.
Yes.
Um, oh my God.
I wanna read that short story.
No, I don't.
Just kidding.
Please don't write it.
Please don't write it.

Maybe I'll write one about that, which also
includes a cockroach and it'llbe like all our fears.

Oh my God.
I know.
It's so interesting.
I, it's so funny.
The, again, the book is 204pages.
We could have, we could talk forhours and hours about all of the
different nuances.
I'm so excited for people toread it.
A Guardian and a Thief.
Meha.
Madam Jar, thank you so much forbeing here.

Thank you, Jason.
This.
Was such a great conversationand I love that you pulled out
threads that nobody so far haspulled that from this book.
And I love all of your questionsand I love the energy you
brought to the book and I'm sohappy that we got to chat, you
know, independent of like bookpromotion or anything.

(49:43):
I'm really happy that we got tochat.
Yeah.

too.
All of that is going on.
A quote on the Gays Reading Webis going as a quote on the Gays
Reading website.

I love it.
Do it.

Me, have a wonderful rest of your day.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
And everyone go get your copy ofthe book.

Thank you, Jason.

How are you today,

Brandon Taylor (50:03):
I'm doing well.
I'm doing well.
Feeling good, feeling spry.
It's the US Open.
New York is a buzz with touristsand tennis players.
But it's good.
It's all looking up.

Are you a tennis fan?

Oh yeah huge.
I've been to the US Open N

being facetious?
Oh, okay.

like a huge tennis fan.
I, I played tennis like six to10 hours a week at least.
And yeah, I, and in fact, if Iweren't doing this interview,
I'd be at tennis right now.
So

I am so sorry.

no, it's great.
It's wonderful.
It's.
It's, I'm glad to be here, butjust so you know, I would be at
tennis otherwise for sure.
100%.

I need to make this really fun and we can like
volley in a different way.

Oh, I love that.
Wow.
The tennis puns, I feel right athome.

But yes.
Perfect.
That's the goal making peoplefeel at home on gay's reading.
So I should officially sayBrandon Taylor, welcome to Gay's

Oh, thanks for having me.

Thanks for being here.
So you are my guest gay readertoday.
The first thing I have to knowis, what are you reading?

What am I reading?
I'm reading right now a not verygood tennis book called
Essential Tennis.
I

Is it not good because of the quality?
Is it because you know all thecontent already?

It is not, it's just not a good book.
It, it's structured very poorlyand I'm not totally sure that it
knows.
What it wants to communicate tothe reader and why, and it feel,
I should say that like this guyis one of the first big YouTube
tennis teachers.
He's been doing that for almosttwo decades now.

(51:40):
And this book is clearly justlike a monetization of that
platform where he's boiling downhis lessons.
You can almost see how the pitchmeeting went for this book.
And it's just not carefullyarranged.
It's a book exclusively for guyswho t trawl, the like self-help
finance section of Barnes andNoble.

(52:02):
This is the tennis book for themand that's just not what I'm
here for.
As a

This is why you're not liking it, right?
That is not you.
You are not the Target demo, andmaybe you are.
I didn't know you were a tennisperson, so maybe that is your
brand.

No, it's not.

The finance bro, wall Street guy.

No, it's really horrifying.
It's also like a tennis book forilliterate people.
Like it's just looking at it,I'm just like, this book is
badly laid out.
There are QR codes all in it foryou to do a scan and

watch the

Yeah.
And the YouTube videos are good,so I'm just like, oh, this is
just, somebody was like, youshould do a book.
And he did it and I wish that hehadn't.
It's a very bad tennis book forsure.

Is he handsome?

He looks like a guy.
He looks like he does likeinsurance in the Midwest or
something.
Like he just, he is like askinny little guy.
Yeah.
He's not

I'm asking'cause the reality is should I go learn
how to play tennis by watchinghis YouTube videos?
And If it's worth watching him.

he's not the guy.
You wanna, if you, if you wantlike a hot tennis influencer,
carousel is the guy, or, dennis,I think his name is like Dennis,
the tennis teacher.
He's like also really hot.

He changed his name when he got into tennis.
It cannot be Dennis

I think that's his name.
I think that's his name.
I think that's his, I might bemistaken, he's, and then there's
and then if you're not lookingfor like how to learn how to
play tennis, but just like hotguy doing tennis.
Then this guy Felix Mishka whodoes tennis Brothers on YouTube,
he's also like very attractiveand does tennis content.

I didn't know how much I needed all of this
material

Listen, it's the only thing I know anything about
right now is

This

tennis media ecosystem.
That is the only thing I knowanything about.

You have said many times, not many times, at
least one time, that whensomeone asks you what you're
reading, you should either tellthem, make something up, or are
you gonna be honest and sayyou're rereading Anna Carina.

Oh the other.
Other part of it is the stack ofbooks that I'm actually reading
is know what's I'm readingideology in Utopia by Carl
Manheim, criticism and Ideologyby Terry Eagleton.
Post Modernity and Ethics on thenovel by Andrew Gibson, A Theory
of literary production by PhilipRe and for pleasure, a book on

(54:19):
gay ash and Thomas Ma.
That's like what I'm actuallyreading, but for on my way to
tennis, no.
On my way back from tennis, I'mreading essential tennis, but on
my way to tennis, I'm readinglike Andrew Gibson and like
post-modernity or something.

when this, that is like very intense reading.

I find it really soothing.
Like I've been reading a lot of,

I love

Louie Altair and I find him really soothing and
really clarifying and it likereally moves me and really pumps
me up.

What is it that's soothing?
What's your the PSA.

yeah I love a writer who's like really clear
and a writer who can articulatesomething about what it is to
live in the world or to, who canclarify something that I find
really confusing and when theycan present it to me in this
like really not super elaborate,but just like person to person,
here are the terms on which Iengage the world, and I find

(55:21):
that really.
Soothing and like really movingand like really beautiful.
And I don't know, because a lotof these writers are writing
about like big ideas.
Big ideas can be really scary orreally confusing or really
complicated or muddy.
But the writers I just mentionedare all just, they make it feel
so accessible and so clear andthey take you through their

(55:43):
argument.
And I always leave these booksfeeling like I understand.
A little more about the thing Iwent in hoping to read about and
I've read novels and stuffwritten by contemporary writers
that are written super lucidly,but so confusing that I'm like

(56:04):
confounded by them.
And so I don't know, readingabout, like reading Terry Eton
or Al or Maray.
Who are these like theorists?
I don't know.
I find it much more clarifyingand clear to read than even some
contemporary novels these days,and I'm just like, man, I'd
rather have the theorists atleast there talking in terms I

(56:25):
can understand.

I was gonna say, it sounds like they're like
taking their maybe big conceptsand just like putting them on
the page, as if they weretelling them to a friend over a
beer or something, versusperhaps a contemporary writer
doing their darnedest to writecapital L literary fiction and
what that means to them.

boy.
Oh boy.
So true.

Is what I'm hearing you say.

true.
Listen, many such cases many

no, I Under every once in a while I'm like, do
they know what they're saying?

No.
Increasingly no, they don't.
And I wish they would stop.
I wish they would stop.
I read a book recently that, andI was just like, brother you
gotta put down the sauce.
What are we doing here?
What did, was it necessary to doall that?
Did you need to do all that?

Okay.
I feel you since you clearlyhave reread Anna Karenina to
someone who has not read AnnaKarenina, what, how, why should
I read it?

Oh my gosh.
There are so many.
There are so many great reasonsto read Reina.
It really depends on the reader.
I think that.
To a reader who usually loveslike a big plotty book.
I would say it is the plots ofnovels.
There are so many things goingon.
It has like politicalmachinations.
It has like per interpersonaldrama.

(57:51):
It has like social, like soapoperatic, theatrics, like it has
all of that going on.
There's just, it's like nonstopstuff happening to.
To maybe more of the sort oflike Marilyn Robinson fan.
I would say that it is a deeplyspiritual and theologically
active text that it has allthese like really beautiful

(58:13):
ruminations on spirituality andfaith and how do we live and
what does it mean to live in asociety and to live in a world
and to make moral choices.
And so it has that going for it.
To someone who just like, wantsto read like a dishy love story,
I would say that it has adulteryand betrayal and the will, will,
they, won't they of it all.

(58:35):
Um, And.
Yeah.
And so to me it is like a novelthat has all these different
registers and all these likebeautiful things to it.
And what's so magical about itis with it tol story weaves it
all together and the prose isjust so beautiful.
And I don't know.
And I think that people go inthinking that it's gonna be
dense and hard, but it's reallynot like it's so accessible.

(58:56):
And if you're worried about thelength.

I was literally just pulling up the page count.

It's long, but Maggie Gien Hall reads the audio
book and she is a great narratorbecause she understands the book
in a way that like, I think alot of narrators sometimes don't
get the book, but that is awoman who has clearly read Anna
Corona before in her own timeand gets it and she makes it so
active and alive and she iswonderful.

Okay.
Approximately 800 to 950 pages.
There have been some printingsas short as 771.

It's a long book, but

yeah.
But it feels like a, there's alot happening.

a lot, it goes swiftly.
It's a fast book.
And I love it.
I recommend 10 out of 10

I my, I'm a later in life reader and so my list of
classics that I have tackled isSlim to None or it's like Tickle
a Mockingbird and of Mice andMen.
So I am.
On a mission to read some more,

You know what though?
I have, I am from Alabama andI've never read to Kill a
Mockingbird.
Never in my life, and I neverwill.
Not for me not doing that.
Not doing it.

Jason Blitman (01:00:07):
Can you unpack that?

Brandon Taylor (01:00:09):
So the way that it worked was that in my school,
the kids who were on theadvanced diploma didn't read
that book.
They,'cause they were, they hadto read Shakespeare and they had
to read They had to read allthis other stuff for the AP
exams.
And the kids who were on thegeneral diploma were the
standard diploma.
They read To Kill a Mockingbirdand all this

telling me you're advanced.

was on the advanced diploma, so like I,
read their eyes were watchingGod and Macbeth and Hamlet.
And we read very little likeAmerican literature actually in
my AP lit and AP language class.
We didn't when, I mean that alsomeant that we didn't do
Steinbeck.
Like we didn't do of Mice andMen or Cannery

Those are The two that I just threw out there.

didn't do those.

Yeah.

we did Grapes of Wrath in.
10th grade we did Grapes ofWrath.
But the standard Diploma kidsdidn't do Grapes of Wrath.
So like there, there was thislike a bifurcation in my fate
where we also didn't dosalinger, like we, like the
standard diploma kids didSalinger.
And so I think I justinternalized this idea that was
for the reg that was for thegeneral population and like it,
it contained nothing for me totake on.

(01:01:18):
So there was just like thiswhole section of.
American Classics in particularthat I just don't know anything
about.
I didn't enter my field.

The last three minutes have been dripping in
shade towards me, but I'm notgonna take

No.
No shade.
No

Jason, you?
are regular,

Not at all.
Not at all.

Which is hilarious because I was actually
in gifted classes and these arestill the books that we were
reading.
So we clearly, I know this isvery interesting.
I know.
I am so curious because thebooks that you rattled off
reading are specific, do you,what is your journey like of
dipping in, are you in abookstore and you just are

(01:02:02):
inspired by something?
Is there a theme in your lifewhere you're like, oh, I wanna
learn more about this and so Iwanna find a book about it?
How, what?
How do you tap in?

What, I mean my move in bookstores is the minute
I enter a bookstore, I don't goto fiction.
I don't even look at fiction.
N No,

It's dead to you.

it really is like a dead zone.
There are reasons for this, butit's dead to me and I go
straight to nonfiction,specifically straight to
literary criticism.
Especially in the Strand, in thebasement of the Strand is where
the literary criticism is.
It is like one of the greatrepositories of books.
It is the best bookstore in NewYork is just those three

(01:02:42):
bookshelves in the strand.
Because

the whole store closed but kept those three
shelves,

It would be, it really would be.
It's extraordinary because, soNew York is like home to like
many universities and like manylike old people who die and
their books get sent to theStrand.
And so it's like this repositoryof this incredible range of
writing about writing andwriting about literature.
And so I was like a literarynerd.
I love that section.

(01:03:07):
The reason that I don't go tofiction is because.
You simply cannot go into abookstore in New York City
looking for a specific fictiontitle.
You just can't.
They won't have it.
If you go into a bookstorelooking for, and this happened
to me, I went into fourbookstores in New York City,

(01:03:28):
looking for a copy of TonyMorrison's Soula.
Nobody had a copy.
No copies.
No copies.
And then I asked them for a copyof Beloved, and they, it's been,
it took them 10 minutes to trackdown a copy of Beloved

That's devastating.

It's because I was looking for Beloved that
day.
If I had been looking for adifferent book that day, they
would've had

It would've been there.
Yeah.
Yeah.

like, you just

So this is on you, is what you're saying.

You just can't go into a New York bookstore
looking for a specific book.
They just, by the laws of theuniverse, they simply will not
have it.
I have never, in my, I guessI've been in the city four or
five years now, I've never goneinto a New York bookstore
looking for a book and they havehad it.
I've never.
Once.
Not once.

(01:04:13):
Not once.
Every time I've gone into a NewYork bookstore and bought a
fiction book, it's because I'vebeen looking for something else.
And that's the, and had tobrowse, right?
And so if you're going intobrows.

universe is conspiring against you.

maybe, if you're going into browse, it's great,
but like when I'm in a bookstorelooking for fiction, I'm not
there to browse.
I'm there to buy this book thatcame out two days ago and they
just won't

Or ula,

Or Ula, I went into a New York bookstore to
buy,'cause I was teaching aclass on the novel of Manners
and I, we were at the part ofthe semester where we were doing
the millennial novel of Mannersand I went in to buy a copy of
Kylie Reed's.
Such a fun age.
Now that book.
Was very popular.
It sold like a million copies,literally a million copies,

(01:04:59):
truly everywhere.
You could not escape that book.
And so I thought, oh, I'll justpop into McNally Jack.
It's a, it's like a, it's likethe platonic ideal of a McNally
Jackson book.
I'm like, I'll just go intoMcNally Jackson at Rockefeller
Center, and I'll just pick up acopy of it on my way to class so
I can reference it.
They didn't have it.
I stopped at the strand.

(01:05:20):
They didn't have it.
I'm just like, I've been seeingthis book everywhere for four
years, and now no one has a.

Okay.
It's not just you because yousaying that reminded me that I
saw Charlotte McConaughey's oncethere were wolves.
Everywhere.
It was everywhere.
And so finally one day, becauseI was seeing it everywhere, I
picked it up at a thrift storeand I was like, great, I'm
putting it on my shelf.
I did a big purge a few monthsago, got rid of it, read her

(01:05:51):
newest book, wild, dark Shore,fell in love with.
It was like, man, I want to goback and read all of Charlotte's
stuff.
Can't find it.
It is nowhere.
I've been looking for literallymonths.

it.
Who knows.
Who knows?
And and this is why, I also justdon't browse fiction.
I don't browse fiction.
I like nonfiction.
I'm capable of being surprised.
I love it.
I'm gonna do it.
I don't browse fiction because Ilike why, like there's nothing
and I'm just not a fictionbrowser.
I'm a nonfiction head and,

you were to pick fiction, if there was if someone
was describing a book to youthat was fiction, what would
make you say, oh, I wanna readthat.

I mean,

this, is this gonna be the clip of this
episode?
Is you just making those?
Humming, humming and highingnoises.

What would make me, what would make me pick it
up?
And if it were fiction and I hadnever heard of the author
before.

Yeah, like you didn't have context outside of a
hand cell.
What?
What could someone say?

I don't know that there's anything anyone
could say to me to hand sell mea fiction book that just I
don't, I'm impervious to thehand sell on fiction.
No one, no bookseller has everhand sold me a book.
On fiction by someone I didn'tknow.
I'm just, it's just not gonnawork.
I'm impervious to that.
Um, But something that mightmake me pick it up if I were

(01:07:18):
like, just browsing and pickingup, this actually happened to me
recently.
I picked up a book by JF Powersand.
about a priest.
And then I found out that hewrites about Jesuits and
Catholics and priests,especially in Chicago.
And I was like, MidwesternCatholics, I'm all over that.
Let's go.
And he's funny.
1000%.
That's my bag.

(01:07:38):
I'm gonna do it.
It's like maybe if it involvedCatholicism in some way I'd pick
it up.
A priest love books aboutpriests love Can't get enough.
10 out of 10 we will read almostany book about a priest.

Why is that?

I just find it fascinating.
I find them interesting becausethey're both in the world and
not in the world.
They have this higher calling towhich they, that they must obey
at all times, and yet they alsohave to live an everyday life
where they interact with peopleand go to.
They have jobs and they have tobuy groceries and all this other
stuff, and I find that reallyfascinating.

(01:08:12):
And people have a lot offeelings about priests and I'm
interested in what people feelabout priests and like how that
comes out and the stories wetell about them.
So I'm always really interestedin that.
I love a, one of my favoritebooks about a priest is Miley
Malloy's Saint Liars and SaintPatron, Saint of Liars.
It's so good and it's amazing.
And she's so perfect.
Milan Malloy.

(01:08:32):
But I love that book, especially'cause there's a priest in it
and Patchett's Commonwealth hasa priest in it.
Love books about priests.
I could go on forever.

So I am a nice Jewish boy who went to the
largest Catholic university inthe country, in Chicago.

Oh, is this Loyola?

I went to DePaul.
It might have since beeneclipsed by Loyola, but at the
time it was DePaul.
So me writing my fiction bookabout my fictional time there,
including a priest that youmight read.
So maybe that's gonna be my, I'mnot really an author, but maybe
my new goal is to write the bookthat Brandon

I would want, listen a book about a Jewish gay
who goes to a CatholicUniversity.
Oh, baby I'm your biggest fan.
I'm,

Yes.

will blurb

Look at this validation that I needed

I'll blurb

I did just come from therapy.

oh, will I read it?
Can, when can I read it?
Is the operative question.

You, we are recording and you said you'd
blurb this non-existent book, soit's bring it

Oh, I will, I please, please write also,
please write this book.
I wanna read it now.
I'm sad.
It's not real.
I'm like devastated.
You need to listen.
Open your Word doc when we getoff this and get to work.
For sure.

once upon a time.

Listen I'm sold.

Okay.
If this chapter of your lifethat you're in right now had a
title, what would it be?

Oh, drill and play.
That would be my, that would bemy title.

Drill and

Yes.
So in tennis there's this thingcalled drill and play.
It's a kind of tennis clinicwhere you spend a first, the
first hour doing tennis drills,and then you spend the second
half of the clinic.
Like playing organized doublesmatches to put your drill to, to
use.
And I think like my life rightnow is very much like that where

(01:10:27):
it's like incredibly regimentedwhere I'm giving myself these
like strict reading assignmentsand lists and I'm then
translating a lot of what I'mreading about into my sort of
like daily life.
And my life feels very informedby.
My reading more now than perhapsat any other time in my life.
And so I would say drill andplay for sure.

(01:10:48):
Is the operating schema of mydays.

It doesn't hurt that there's like a sexual

yeah.
Oh yeah.
It's s

young gay man.

perfect, you can see it in the sort of title case
for the chapter heading.
Oh.

A hundred percent.
I know.
And then you're like a littlebit disappointed that it's
about.
Drills and

Until the sex metaphor

That's what I was gonna say.
Until we, until it come, laterin the chapter where you feel
the catharsis as the reader,you're like, finally.

thing about drill in play is that it does
feel like hooking up becauselike you like meet a bunch of
strangers you will never seeagain and you like undertake
this physical activity that'sincredibly like that you all
know you're there to do, but youdon't know how it's gonna go.
And then at the end of it you'relike toweling off and then you
like disappear until the nightnever to be seen again like it
is.
Every time I like leave mytennis place, I like open Grindr

(01:11:39):
and I'm always like, this feelsso similar to what I just did
this.
This feels not dissimilar.

You should change the little caption on your
picture to say drill and playquestion

Oh, you know what?
Listen, that's a great idea.
That's a

How amazing would it be if someone replied
knowing, getting the reference?

Oh, listen

Then you're gonna get

I am, so whenever there's a guy on, on
Grindr in New York and he haslike a picture of him on a
tennis court, I always recognizethe courts.
'cause I played on almost everycourt in the city and I'm like,
are those the Sutton EastCourts?
Or oh, is that the RooseveltIsland Court four?
And he is yeah.
I'm like, should we like, do youwanna hit sometime?
That'd be like really fun.
No, never a response.

(01:12:23):
But,

that's

I feel like the geo guesser guy, but for tennis
gaze in New York.

Oh my God.
Look at you.
I'm very excited for your tennisPro husband future for all I
know.
You're not for all I know you'remarried.
I don't even

Maybe one day.
I'm hoping if you're out there,let a girl know.
I,

Yes.
He's listening to gay's readingright now and he's very excited.
He's me.
I wanna drill and play.

That'd be a dream.

You heard it here first.
Everyone.
We have to talk about minorblack figures,

it looks so good.

so, It's not a finished copy.
It's the galley.
So maybe that's, the finishedcopy will look even better.
But maybe it looks good'causethe spine is

Ooh.
Oh.
You've been reading.
Reading with a capital R.

Of course for the people.
What is your elevator pitch forminor black

Um,

Every author's favorite

Oh, I love this game.
Actually.
It is a novel about a painterwho spends an entire summer
having entirely too much sexwith a Jesuit priest and
thinking a lot about Frenchmovies.
And that's really what the bookis about and it turns on that
and it.
Evolves from there.
But really it's like a lovestory about a painter and a

(01:13:39):
priest.
Which given what I said earlierabout Catholics and painting,
makes a ton of sense.
But yeah, that's what it'sabout.
Like having sex with a Jesuitone summer,

I, where was I?
Oh,

I.

I was having this very interesting conversation
with, I like met a guy at aparty with my husband, and that
sounds more.
exciting than it was other thanjust like literally sitting at a
table and chatting with him.
And he started talking about onhis substack, how he was in the
process of writing an articleabout if there is art in a

(01:14:19):
museum that gets bombed.
And the art gets affected insome way.
Does that become a part of thehistory of the art, or should
you restore it to its originalform?
And from reading this, I had somany of my own feelings about

(01:14:39):
art restoration that I was like,I'm, in this book that I'm
reading right now, let me tellyou about.
Art restoration and the thingsthat I'm learning and the
techniques, et cetera, etcetera.
And then, anyway, we had a verylong existential conversation
about that and art and what itmeans, to preserve it versus
celebrate it in a new form.
But it's also very much aboutart.
This book, not just,

not just having sex with a priest.
Yeah.
I mean it, when I wrote thatbook, I to write that book I'd
just throw away a different bookthat I had been writing and
failing to write for five or sixyears and.
By throwing that other bookaway, I was like, okay, like
what do I wanna write?
And I was like, man, I just likewanna write a book that's gonna
let me like, describe stuff andlike work through some of my
baggage about.

(01:15:23):
The way we talk about art anddeal with art these days.
And like also a book that'sgonna let me talk about how I
think a lot of contemporarypainting is just like really
ugly, especially like gaycontemporary painting is so ugly
and like, why are they paintingso many naked bodies all the
time?
And so this book was really

Artist objective.

yes, it is subjective.
And some of that is incrediblyugly.
So I was like, what?
What's gonna let me do that?
I was like I should write a bookabout a painter and I'm gonna
make him like, think about allthis stuff and using the book to
smuggle in.
Opportunities to think throughhow we talk about art and why we

(01:16:02):
talk that way about art.
And to take up some of thereally interesting questions
that I'm fascinated by.
Like, how is art restored andwhy is it restored?
And what do you think about whenyou're restoring it?
And what are the differentconflicts in that field?
Because there are a lot ofpeople have very, as you perhaps
now know, like they have verycontrasting ideas about.

Yeah.
From the book, but also fromthis conversation that I was
having with this guy.
It was so interesting and littledid I know it was, it really
dusted up a lot of interestingand engaging thoughts and
theories and feelings.
You, one of the first things yousaid was how we talk about art.
How do you feel like we talkabout art these days?

Oh right now we're in a, we're in a kind of,
I guess like literal and perhapsfigurative regime change around,
around these discourses.
It feels somehow like duringthose sort of high Obama years,
there was one way of talkingabout art, which was like very
identity forward and which wasvery identity forward in a way

(01:17:07):
that was using art.
Like it was like politicizingart, but along strictly
identitarian lines in a way thatlike a lot of people felt was
like cheesy and a lot of peoplefelt was like really important
and necessary.
And then in the sort of likeTrumpian years, I feel like that
got turned up even more becausepeople were doing a lot of it

(01:17:27):
was the peak of like resistcringe liberalism.
And so people were like reallyleaning into the sort of Obama
era rhetoric and now it feelssomehow that we're experiencing
a collapse of a lot of the sortof like.
Liberal optimism or like thesort of embedded hope that was

(01:17:48):
in a lot of that identitarianrhetoric.
And so now people are cynicalabout identity again.
And I think we're seeing a lotof that in the kind of like weak
30 of ocean vong backlash onSubstack.
Like people are just like fight.
And I think a lot of that has todo with people feel really
frustrated and really hurt by.

(01:18:09):
The fact that their sort ofliberal ideology has led them to
a place they didn't want to bein, and they are taking that
frustration out on poor oceanvong to, to a large degree.
Sentimental artists always getshellacked in times like this.
You see it all the time, likehistory is full of examples of
this.
The sort of reactionary.
Left is very always incrediblyloud.

(01:18:31):
And so I think right now we'rein a moment of figuring out how
we want to talk about art forthe next five years or the next
decade.
And it seems like that discourseis gonna be dominated by a lot
of like questions aroundauthenticity.
A lot of questions around thehumanness of art, why we make
art.
And questions around the sort ofquote unquote political project

(01:18:53):
of art.
And especially because we have apresident who is looking to
punish enemies and to punish hisideological enemies.
And in some sense, we're kind ofright back where we were.
In around the time of theinvention of ideology, which was
in this sort of what, like late18th, early or middle 19th

(01:19:16):
century where you saw somebodylike, emperor Napoleon using the
word ideology to sort of.
Harm his political rivals.
So I think we're, we're kind oflike back there, which is to say
we're in another reactionarymoment.
And it's really bleak.
It's bleak.
I'm just like sick of it.
I'm like, everybody stopfighting.
Like stop fighting about what wetalk about when we talk about

(01:19:38):
our, like just go do something,like log off.

Yeah.
Amen.
Everyone can go, uh, Enjoy arthowever

fight about it, then go fight about it on the
internet as we love to do.

Go buy minor black figures because it is out
now, wherever you get yourbooks.
But don't go to a store in NewYork with it in mind.
Go to the store thinking ofsomething else, and then you'll
also pick up minor

Yes.
Yes.

Otherwise it won't be

that's the ideal way.
That is the ideal way.

You can pre-order Persuasion with the introduction
by Brandon Taylor.
Everyone's gonna go buy anannotated copy of Anna Carina
because now we will, we can readit in chunks and feel really
great about it.
And we're gonna go follow somany hot tennis influencers.
This is a robust takeaway fromtoday's episode of Gay's

(01:20:32):
Reading.
Brandon, thank you so much forbeing here.

for having me on.
It was a delight.
Megha Brandon, thank you so muchboth for being here.
Have a wonderful rest of yourday and I'll see you later this
week.
Bye.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

Crime Junkie

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Megha Majumdar (A Guardian and a Thief) feat. Brandon Taylor, Guest Gay Reader

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

Crime Junkie

All Episodes

Megha Majumdar (A Guardian and a Thief) feat. Brandon Taylor, Guest Gay Reader

Stuff You Should Know