September 15, 2025 • 28 mins
In this *spoiler free* conversation, host Jason Blitman talks to author Alejandro Varela, about his book MIDDLE SPOON, the October Gays Reading Book Club pick with Allstora.
MIDDLE SPOON unpacks what happens when you’ve got the husband, the kids, the bougie life… AND you’re going through a breakup with your boyfriend. Provocative, witty, and deeply human—this one’s not afraid to challenge the so-called “rules” of love.
Alejandro Varela’s debut novel, The Town of Babylon, was a finalist for the National Book Award. His short story collection, The People Who Report More Stress, was one of Publishers Weekly’s best works of fiction in 2023, a finalist for the International Latino Book Awards, and longlisted for the Aspen Literary Prize, the Story Prize, and the PEN/Jean Stein Book Award. Varela is an editor-at-large of Apogee Journal, holds a master’s degree in public health, and is based in New York.
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October Book: Middle Spoon by Alejandro Varela
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Gays reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what, andwhy.
Anyone can listen.
Comes we're spoiler free Readingfrom politic stars to book club
picks where the curious mindscan get their picks.
So you say you're not gay.
(00:24):
Well that's okay.
There's something for everyone.
Gays rating.
Hello and welcome to Gay'sReading.
I'm your host Jason Blitman, andtoday is a special bonus episode
because of course it is the 15thof the month, which means we are
announcing next month's Gay'sReading Book Club pick.
(00:47):
And I am so thrilled to sharethat the October pick is Middle
Spoon by Alejandro Varela andyou could learn more about
joining the book club at thelink in the Instagram bio and at
the link in the show notes.
And don't worry, thisconversation is completely
spoiler free.
So you don't need to worry aboutwhether or not you've read the
book.
You can still listen and enjoyno matter what.
(01:10):
I hope you'll join us over onAltoa for the October Book Club.
All right, and now here's myconversation with Alejandro
Varela
Jason Blitman (01:19):
This is coming, this episode is dropping on
September 15th.
the book is on shelves, but moreimportantly, I am thrilled that
it is the October Gays readingbook Club pick.
So here you are today as both alike pseudo guest gay reader,
but you're also my book clubpick and I just have so many
(01:41):
things I can't wait to talk toyou about.
Alejandro Varela (01:42):
Please.
I'm ready.
And also September 15th, happybirthday to my mother.
Jason Blitman (01:47):
happy Birthday to Alejandro's mother.
I hope you're listening, mom.
Alejandro Varela (01:52):
She will be.
Jason Blitman (01:55):
Before we start talking about your fantastic
book, middle Spoon, I wannalearn a little bit more about
you.
So here are some of our newguest gay reader questions.
If the chapter of your life thatyou're in right now had a title,
what would it be?
Alejandro Varela (02:16):
Oh man, you're gonna hate this one.
Jason Blitman (02:18):
Why?
Alejandro Varela (02:19):
Middle spoon.
This is the moment of this booktitle.
I think, first off, apologies tothe Throuple community because
it's not what I think theThrouple community uses Middle
Spoon as, which is really themiddle person at night in bed, I
believe is the middle spoon.
That is not what this book is,
Jason Blitman (02:39):
No.
Alejandro Varela (02:40):
but I still feel very much what I was trying
to accomplish in that book andwhere I am in my life.
The parallels, I wouldn't saythey're uncanny because it was
intentional, but it really isabout exploring this middle
generation this whether it'sabout income or immigration
status or skin color orparenting versus being a child
(03:03):
and even then just dealing withmultiple relationships or
unconventional romanticrelationships.
In that way, I'm living themoment the story is fiction, but
in my life I think of myself asdealing with a lot of that.
So Middle Spoon,
Jason Blitman (03:18):
It's your middle spoon chapter.
Alejandro Varela (03:20):
my middle spoon chapter.
Jason Blitman (03:22):
Okay.
And if you were to title yourmemoir, what is the chapter?
Middle Spoon is sitting within
Alejandro Varela (03:28):
A Children's Guide to Heartbreak, a
Children's Guide to Heartbreak.
I.
I'll be honest, it was an earlytitle for this book
Jason Blitman (03:39):
Really?
Alejandro Varela (03:41):
it was this idea that we spend now, this is
very public healthy, but thatwhat happens to your brain
happens early and it reallyisn't like the jaws of life to
change it.
It's like you, it's a recordwith a scratch on it that get
mass produced with that scratch.
There's, it's really hard toundo that if at all.
There are ways are interventionsin this life, but I spend a lot
(04:02):
of my brain power thinking abouthow to undo patterns and ideas
and thoughts and things thatwere forged early on in my life
or that continue to be forcedupon us by depressed, by
capitalism, what have you.
And so that, yeah, so theconstant I'm undoing of it is.
(04:24):
Is is something that fascinatesme, and that's what I was
referring to with the Children'sGuide to Heartbreak.
Like, how do you, how could Iwrite something that, a younger
version, not of myself, but ifanyone could be like, oh, okay,
this is how you communicate.
This is how we overcome a lot ofthe stigma and the taboos and
the stress that come with them.
Jason Blitman (04:44):
You say this is gonna sound very public healthy.
For the listener who hasn't hada moment to read your bio, that
is because you have a master'sdegree in public health.
Yeah.
Alejandro Varela (04:52):
right.
So in, yeah, after college ittook a couple years to work in
like education and then.
I went to public health schoolnot knowing very little about
public health was, and when Ileft I was like, oh, this should
be the fifth year of high schoolfor everyone.
It's such a way to see societythat you can't undo.
It's a lens and then you put iton and then it's like the
(05:12):
matrix.
You never see anything the sameway the same way again.
You don't see people's actionsso much as you imagine their
histories and why they're doingthe things that they do, and why
we behave the way that we behaveand what it would take for those
behaviors to change.
That is with public health.
Studies teach you and I justfeel like a better person for
(05:33):
knowing that, but it alsoaffects how and what I write
about and how I write about.
Jason Blitman (05:38):
You said it should be everyone's fifth year
of high school.
And you just articulated some ofyour takeaways from it, but if
you could even be more succinct.
Is it because it helps focus theway you see the world?
Alejandro Varela (05:57):
Because we spend a lot of time in the weeds
in the society fighting overdownstream issues when we should
be talking about the upstreamreasons.
We spend a lot of time tellingpeople how to behave when we
don't, without thinking of thecircumstances that cause people
to behave the way that they do.
And so public health takes thelens out.
It pulls the lens out.
(06:18):
It's very, it's, yeah, it's
Jason Blitman (06:21):
it's so interesting to hear this,
segueing right into talkingabout the book because it feels
like that I'm sure you couldhave written the book otherwise,
but it feels like it was thatexperience that encouraged the
book or informed the book.
Alejandro Varela (06:37):
Absolutely.
I think it's, oh.
Can I ask, have you ever had todeal with grief of any kind?
Jason Blitman (06:45):
I have.
Alejandro Varela (06:46):
I have.
And have you ever had heartbreakin your life?
Romantic heartbreak.
Jason Blitman (06:50):
yeah.
Alejandro Varela (06:51):
And so you probably know that sort of grief
and other types of grief can beall consuming and it can be very
difficult to function in theworld when you have this sort of
ghost on you that no one canreally see or feel, but you're
feeling it and you're livingwith it all the time.
You still have to function.
You still have to be a parentand a member of society and go
(07:15):
to work.
And there is no.
Leave of absence for heartbreak,right?
And yet so many people have gonethrough it.
And when I was writing the book,I interviewed dozens of people.
Just randomly.
And I'd be like, have you everhad heartbreak in your life?
And the way those emotions cameto the surface, for every person
that I talked to, people whohave been happily married for 25
(07:36):
years, still remember.
Just that devastation, likewalking down the street crying,
like not being able to hold ittogether.
And I didn't realize that thatso many humans had experienced
this.
And so I started to imagine thatwe're all doing this, but we're
all worried about all the thingsthat are happening in life right
now.
We're worried about.
The state of democracy aboutSudan, Gaza, Yemen, you name it,
(08:00):
we're worried about it, butwe're also nursing broken hearts
and to make things worse, peoplein those situations are nursing
broken hearts.
And so I was just fascinated bythat idea that we as humans have
to juggle all of it.
Jason Blitman (08:12):
And so for the listener who has not had a
chance to pick it up yet, whatis your elevator pitch for
middle spoon?
Alejandro Varela (08:20):
Middle spoon is its heart.
I believe a love story.
Told through letters, unsentletters to the person who broke
the narrator's heart, whohappens to be a happily married
father of two who owns his homeand has achieved the American
dream as we've been told itshould be, and then experiences
(08:41):
this intense grief for the firsttime in his life.
So you have a middle aged personin effect, reverting to late
teenage years.
Being like, oh my God, the worldis falling apart.
I finally understand like everypop song that has ever been
written, like what, what'shappening.
And and so through these letterswe get to piece together what
this relationship was, why itwas meaningful, why it was
(09:04):
working, why it wasn't.
And in the process we realize heis also that this is how he's
gonna deal with all sorts ofstressors in his life.
So we also get a better sense ofhow he views the world.
But yeah, ultimately this, Ifeel this is a love story, but
one colored by grief.
Jason Blitman (09:20):
I.
Going back to what you weresaying about things that we've
all been through or felt orwhatever, was about halfway
through and I to both my husbandand your publicist and anyone
who would listen basically said,I hate this book.
And the reason why I hate it isbecause I relate so much to it.
(09:45):
I, you get so annoyed with themain character because.
You see yourself in thebehavior.
And I was, and it was sofrustrating'cause I was like I
was such a dumb teenager.
I was such a dumb 23-year-old,or, whatever it was.
And obviously I didn't actuallyhate the book.
I, otherwise I wouldn't havechosen it for my book club.
I loved the book, but it was oneof those things where it's like
(10:07):
I wanted to throw it against thewall because I so deeply saw
myself, but also I think.
It is such a universal story ofwhat we all go through when
we're grieving something,regardless of what it is and how
we behave.
Alejandro Varela (10:26):
Absolutely, and I think.
That was the shock of it.
I was going through a roughmoment in my life and I was
imagining everyone around megoing through that rough moment.
Like I started to have thistremendous empathy for everyone
around me, and I consideredmyself pretty.
I always thought I was a prettyempathic person, but I was like,
(10:49):
oh my God, that's maybe why thisperson is behaving this way and
maybe that's why this personbehaves this way.
Maybe that's.
So I wanted to write somethingthat everyone could relate to.
And I don't us, I don't writethat way.
I don't always think I have.
Who's my audience?
That's not me.
I want as many people aspossible to be able to
understand and relate to thethings that I write.
(11:11):
And but this time I thoughtgrief is pretty universal.
Heartbreak is universal.
Jason Blitman (11:17):
so it's interesting because yes, it is
super universal.
Yes, it is super relatable,except it is also not.
This in the context of thisbook.
It is in, within the package ofthis polyamorous relationship,
which I think is tremendouslytaboo.
It is so complicated and fraughtwith I think lots of confusion
(11:43):
and feelings, et cetera.
And there are so many thingsthat I underlined in the book or
highlighted or star or whatever.
Some of that was for me.
Personally, some of it was forme to share with you right now.
Some of it was, to say to myhusband, some of it was, there
was so much to take away.
But one of the things right nowthat I think is like at the
(12:03):
heart of the book is no oneimagines their life taking
several deviations from thenorm.
And that is said in the book andI think is such a great really
baseline.
Of what we're talking abouthere.
Part of the grief isn't justgrieving the loss of a
(12:27):
relationship, but it's the griefof what you expected your life
to look like, to not be thatway.
Alejandro Varela (12:35):
Thanks for that question or that comment.
Wait, did you wanna asksomething?
Jason Blitman (12:39):
So my follow up was gonna be, where did the sort
of putting this in the packageof polyamory come from?
Alejandro Varela (12:49):
I'm gonna have to give some credit to George.
Michael, let's put it out there.
I I heard an interview recentlyor my understanding of why he
gave an interview recently andsaid something that.
Suddenly seems so obvious to me,but I hadn't thought it about it
exactly this way.
He was being asked about gayculture and he was pretty much
bemoaning the circuit partyscene and how we had become so
(13:12):
vapid or superficial, and thisis in the nineties or whatever,
and it was a little judgy buthe, it was coming from place of
love because he was saying as acommunity, we are beautiful and
important and artistic and blah,blah, blah.
And the quite the interviewersaid why is the queer community
or the gay community, so theydidn't use queer, so artistic,
which is a stereotype, but hisargument was that if from an
(13:34):
early age you are asked toquestion such a basic, tenet of
society, of the way, we'resupposed to think that a boy
goes with a girl and they staytogether forever.
At some point you overcome thatidea.
If you're a gay person or evenif you're not, then suddenly you
think, wait a second.
What else were they wrong about?
(13:57):
If this most basic thing theygot completely wrong, then your
mind is suddenly open.
And I think some of what, whatsucks about the conformity and
the acceptance in these days ofbeing gay or queer is that.
You do you feel so happy thatyou're accepted in some ways
(14:17):
that you don't have to live thefear that the people that came
before us did that.
You suddenly are like, oh myGod.
I also want the one partner andthe house and the kids and the
dog and the subscriptions.
And some of that is just lifeand enjoying life, but some of
it I think is just a su likesuppressing.
(14:37):
Curiosities and desires and it,or it takes a lot of suppression
to get to that place.
And so I wanted, I, it would'vebeen easy to write a book about
a straight guy, what it was,heartbroken and is left alone,
and everyone would've related tothat heartbreak.
But I wanted to have convers abigger, broader conversation
(15:00):
about questioning society andwhat is acceptable and what
isn't.
And I believe to, to bring itback to George Michael, there is
something to art that is aboutcuriosity, a living curiosity
and always being like, but why?
But why?
And and that comes from the sortof foundation of coming out and
realizing you're not likeeveryone else.
(15:22):
So no, this book was not in away to, it wasn't to promote
unconventional romanticrelationships, although if it
does, wonderful.
But it was really about sayingwe can connect on this very
human thing and we can pushthrough all of the things we
don't have in common and stillconnect.
And I loved that idea, right?
That, that we could, do that.
Jason Blitman (15:42):
It's interesting.
I was just talking to an authorwho whose book is about someone
wanting to become an astronaut,and I was telling her because,
becoming an astronaut, it's likea, you have a 0.0, zero zero 1%
chance of that ever happening,even for the person who wants to
become one.
In doing so.
(16:02):
There is enough sort of spaceand removal and fantastical
element that allows you to tapinto the other honest moments in
the book.
This comes up when I talked toGabrielle ZA few years ago,
about tomorrow and tomorrow andtomorrow, because I was saying
to her, I'm not a video gameperson at all, and I loved the
book so much and I couldn't helpbut compare it to Friday Night
(16:25):
Lights.
I couldn't even tell you a rulein football and like maybe I
could throw out some words liketouchdown.
But I loved that show so muchbecause there was this buffer,
or she explained to me that shethinks it's because there's this
buffer of you don't feel sodeeply rooted in the story that
you have the space to be able tohave a deeper, meaningful
(16:48):
relationship with thecharacters.
So in a way, I think that.
Through the lens of polyamory, alot of people will actually be
able to relate in a very uniqueway because what's so special
about the book that we don'toften get to experience people
who have been in long-termrelationships is the ending of a
(17:11):
relationship.
So late in life, but you stillhave the foundation of another
one.
And so as an adult you'regrieving the loss of a young
mark relationship, which is it'ssuch a unique experience to have
and to think about,
Alejandro Varela (17:28):
and also as a writer really put me in an
interesting situation because Ithought not only do I have to
get past maybe some conservativethinking, or but also just
feeling sorry for people whoalready have enough, right?
And so I think for a lot ofpeople, they're like what, how?
(17:51):
He's happily married to awonderful person and he has two
children and all the otherstuff, like he can pay the
bills.
It's very, and so I, I waswriting with that mindset
thinking, I have to get past, Ihave to get past that hurdle as
well and write this in a waythat they can really connect to.
And then maybe also.
(18:11):
A better understanding of theunconventionality of the.
Jason Blitman (18:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And also I think it's a,suddenly this is becoming
A-A-P-S-A for the book, whichobviously it is, but there's
something to be said about itbeing a tool to engage in
conversation aboutunconventional.
Experiences, relationships,sexual encounters, what have
(18:36):
you.
Another quote in the book is,when I was 30, I thought
polyamory was an untenableextravagance for unserious and
possibly degenerate people tothe person who.
Saw the announcement that thisis the October gays reading book
club pic, and they're in theclub and they're like, eh,
(18:58):
polyamory is this thing that'san untenable extravagance for
unserious and possiblydegenerate people.
What would you say to thatperson who's like anxious about
picking up the book or feelslike it's not gonna be for them?
Alejandro Varela (19:12):
I would say that.
But it's it's fun to bechallenged when you're reading.
It's,
Jason Blitman (19:22):
Yeah.
Alejandro Varela (19:22):
I consider it a pleasure to be in a space
where I'm forced to confront orthink about things that I would
otherwise avoid in my everydaylife and in the safety of like
my brain and in my living room,and I consider that, oh God,
this is so fool of myself, but alittle bit of a service as a
writer to be able to say, Hey,let's grapple with these things
on our own.
(19:43):
I'm not gonna call you intopublic square and ask you to
answer questions.
Just think about these things.
And I also try to writecharacters who are growing on
the page too, so that it doesn'tfeel like.
There's a balance to thelecturing.
There's a balance to the, to allthe information that I put on
the page.
There's a kind of, I'm human tothe narrator saying, I'm also
(20:04):
figuring this out.
And I think if you putvulnerability on the page, it
makes the reader vulnerable.
And so it's really important forme to always be vulnerable on
the page.
That's what I see.
And I would also say that Iheard someone say this recently.
In fact, it was Anna Gasti, theSNL Alum Broadway and Broadway
Star, and she said she came toFire Island she said something
(20:28):
to the effect of, it's weird.
It's always weird until myfriend does it.
Until your friend does it.
It's weird.
And in a way.
I write things that I hope makeyou feel that relationship like
that was so weird until I sawsomeone go through it,
Jason Blitman (20:43):
and that, it's, I am, I'm so glad that you just
said all of that because inchoosing the book for the club
that.
At the core is why I was soexcited about it, why I am so
excited about it, and for peopleto read it because it is so
accessible.
But it really challenges you asa reader to just think about
something that on one hand feelsso familiar and on another hand
(21:07):
feels so foreign.
And yeah, I'm, I am just excitedfor.
For everyone to grapple with awhole bunch of questions that
will, I think, pop up for thereader along the way.
Alejandro Varela (21:20):
Thank you for saying that.
Jason Blitman (21:22):
you just mentioned on Gassier the, you
are clearly a theater fan.
Alejandro Varela (21:29):
I am a fan of theater.
Yes.
Jason Blitman (21:31):
We have to talk about Martin McDonough.
Alejandro Varela (21:33):
Oh I just think he's fantastic.
He's such a brilliant writer andhe really, his films really do a
great job of capturing scene andcharacter in a way that makes
you feel like you're caught upin something very.
Personal or interpersonal, butit's global.
It's bigger.
(21:54):
And I, that, that's like styleof art making that I really
appreciate.
Jason Blitman (21:58):
I'm such a fan of his work, his play, the Pillow
Man is far and away among myfavorites.
Alejandro Varela (22:02):
Oh wow.
Yeah.
He's
Jason Blitman (22:04):
We have to talk about another Martin that comes
up in the book, Martin Short andFather of the Bride,
Alejandro Varela (22:10):
Yeah.
It makes a cameo.
Jason Blitman (22:13):
He makes a cameo.
Again, I don't need to give anycontext, but one of the best
absolutely one of my favoritemovies of all time.
Father brought both parts oneand part two.
Are, you're clearly a fan of themovies
Alejandro Varela (22:25):
I am a huge fan, more of one than of two,
but I love both
Jason Blitman (22:28):
fair?
Alejandro Varela (22:28):
And I think I, I meant it when I said the.
He's unsung heroes over theyears.
Martin Short is getting hisflowers right now, and I'm,
we're all happy about that.
Even those of us who Yeah.
Don't
Jason Blitman (22:41):
though we've been in Camp Martin short for so
long, I mean the same is truefor Parker Posey.
Alejandro Varela (22:46):
Yes, absolutely.
And it does make you think andpersonal Everett, if we're
leaving the genre, it's nicewhen it happens and it can if
all goes well, it'll happen inlifetime when we're still
rooting for Alfre Woodard.
It's gonna come for her
Jason Blitman (22:58):
yes.
my God.
Alejandro Varela (23:01):
But yeah, Martin, short to me, really pop
culture is such a barometer, notjust for this narrator, but for
me too.
Grew up measuring myself attheir popularity contest really.
And so you just start to measureyourself against what or read
and hear, and then you see thesestandards that they have award
shows, and then that becomes apart of your like, lens too, or
(23:22):
at least mine.
And then you're like, wait asecond, why is these, why are
these people getting ignored allthe time?
And anyway, everyone knowscomedy doesn't get it.
The attention that it should orthe love.
And Martin Short is one of thosepeople, and his Hans is
ridiculous and brilliant and
Jason Blitman (23:37):
The party pooper song, everything about it is so
good.
Alejandro Varela (23:42):
Yeah,
Jason Blitman (23:42):
course, I know that you like part one more, but
in part two there's the babyworkout there.
It's, it is just
Alejandro Varela (23:48):
He's great.
He's really good.
And that's why, that's my pitch.
And this is in the book.
I don't wanna give too muchaway, but that is my pitch for.
Oscar for best featured work
Jason Blitman (23:59):
Yes,
Alejandro Varela (24:00):
after supporting.
Some people may have felt thatMartin wasn't in it long enough
or didn't carry enough sort ofemotional weight in the book,
but his presence really liftsthe film
Jason Blitman (24:09):
Yes, 100%.
The other pop culture theaterreference that comes up that I
cannot avoid talking about isAlex Ripley and Emily Skinner in
sides show the musical talkabout a deep cut.
Ran on Broadway for threemonths.
Alejandro Varela (24:24):
It's funny, I didn't see the musical and I
haven't read it, but I rememberthe moment and I remember the
Tony Awards and I just, Iremember reading about it and I
do love this idea that art canbe collaborative, right?
And I do think Tom Halls shouldhave won the Oscar with f Murray
Abraham for Amadeus.
They should have won ittogether.
They needed each other.
(24:45):
One was not more important thanthe other.
And and so I love to think of aworld in which artists or
performances and creation iscollaborative.
Which is why when the two guyswho did everything everywhere,
all at once won the Oscartogether, that happens
periodically,
Jason Blitman (25:00):
yeah.
Alejandro Varela (25:01):
and these categories that are thought of
as very individualistic, you'relike, whoa, two directors.
That's wild.
And that day one, I thought thatwas pretty cool.
Jason Blitman (25:08):
And circle it back to the book.
Our narrator who, this hasn'tcome up yet, but our narrator is
unnamed, which is why we haven'treferred to him by a name, but
our narrator cannot be theperson that he is without his
husband.
They would win the awardtogether, even though he's the
protagonist of the book, so isthis symbiosis circling around
(25:30):
the middle spoon?
Alejandro Varela (25:32):
Yeah and I think, gosh, the husband
character I feared would be the,would be really difficult for
the reader because when we talkabout unconventional
relationships, open marriages,polyamory, I think the people
who are skeptical often putthemselves in the place of that
husband and they're like.
(25:53):
I wouldn't take it.
I would feel mistreated.
I would feel rejected.
I would, and this guy's handlingit so well, and I think I wanted
to talk about the fact that thathusband exists in this world.
There are people who don'toperate from a scarcity mindset
when it comes to love.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (26:08):
Yeah.
And I think something I'mthinking about a lot all the
time is how we only live once,how we're only alive for a short
amount of time.
How, the world is.
Big and there's a lot of love togo around.
And it's, it gets interestingand complicated and this book
asks a lot of those questionsand challenges some thoughts,
(26:29):
and I'm so excited for everyoneto read it.
Middle Spoon by Alejandro RelaOut now, but also join the Gay
Reading Book Club through Altoa.
You could check the link in theshow notes and in the Instagram
link tree.
Before I let you go, what arethree words that you would use
to describe the book?
Alejandro Varela (26:54):
Polyamory parenting and public health.
Public health is two words,
Jason Blitman (26:59):
That's okay.
I'll
Alejandro Varela (27:00):
but the other.
But the other one I was thinkingwas pop culture, which would've
also been two words.
Jason Blitman (27:04):
And all very alliterative.
Alejandro Varela (27:06):
Very.
Jason Blitman (27:07):
and if you.
What is a question you wouldwant to ask a book club?
Who has read the book?
Alejandro Varela (27:16):
Can you imagine a world in which
polyamory or an unconventionalsort of open.
Model.
The way we see in the book isnormalized.
Jason Blitman (27:29):
Love that.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Alejandro Varela (27:33):
Thank you.
Jason Blitman (27:34):
I'm so
Alejandro Varela (27:34):
I love it.
Thanks Jason.
This a lot of fun.
I really appreciate.
Thank you.
Gays reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what, andwhy.
Anyone can listen.
Comes we're spoiler free Readingfrom politic stars to book club
picks where the curious mindscan get their picks.
So you say you're not gay.
(00:24):
Well that's okay.
There's something for everyone.
Gays rating.
Hello and welcome to Gay'sReading.
I'm your host Jason Blitman, andtoday is a special bonus episode
because of course it is the 15thof the month, which means we are
announcing next month's Gay'sReading Book Club pick.
(00:47):
And I am so thrilled to sharethat the October pick is Middle
Spoon by Alejandro Varela andyou could learn more about
joining the book club at thelink in the Instagram bio and at
the link in the show notes.
And don't worry, thisconversation is completely
spoiler free.
So you don't need to worry aboutwhether or not you've read the
book.
You can still listen and enjoyno matter what.
(01:10):
I hope you'll join us over onAltoa for the October Book Club.
All right, and now here's myconversation with Alejandro
Varela
Jason Blitman (01:19):
This is coming, this episode is dropping on
September 15th.
the book is on shelves, but moreimportantly, I am thrilled that
it is the October Gays readingbook Club pick.
So here you are today as both alike pseudo guest gay reader,
but you're also my book clubpick and I just have so many
(01:41):
things I can't wait to talk toyou about.
Alejandro Varela (01:42):
Please.
I'm ready.
And also September 15th, happybirthday to my mother.
Jason Blitman (01:47):
happy Birthday to Alejandro's mother.
I hope you're listening, mom.
Alejandro Varela (01:52):
She will be.
Jason Blitman (01:55):
Before we start talking about your fantastic
book, middle Spoon, I wannalearn a little bit more about
you.
So here are some of our newguest gay reader questions.
If the chapter of your life thatyou're in right now had a title,
what would it be?
Alejandro Varela (02:16):
Oh man, you're gonna hate this one.
Jason Blitman (02:18):
Why?
Alejandro Varela (02:19):
Middle spoon.
This is the moment of this booktitle.
I think, first off, apologies tothe Throuple community because
it's not what I think theThrouple community uses Middle
Spoon as, which is really themiddle person at night in bed, I
believe is the middle spoon.
That is not what this book is,
Jason Blitman (02:39):
No.
Alejandro Varela (02:40):
but I still feel very much what I was trying
to accomplish in that book andwhere I am in my life.
The parallels, I wouldn't saythey're uncanny because it was
intentional, but it really isabout exploring this middle
generation this whether it'sabout income or immigration
status or skin color orparenting versus being a child
(03:03):
and even then just dealing withmultiple relationships or
unconventional romanticrelationships.
In that way, I'm living themoment the story is fiction, but
in my life I think of myself asdealing with a lot of that.
So Middle Spoon,
Jason Blitman (03:18):
It's your middle spoon chapter.
Alejandro Varela (03:20):
my middle spoon chapter.
Jason Blitman (03:22):
Okay.
And if you were to title yourmemoir, what is the chapter?
Middle Spoon is sitting within
Alejandro Varela (03:28):
A Children's Guide to Heartbreak, a
Children's Guide to Heartbreak.
I.
I'll be honest, it was an earlytitle for this book
Jason Blitman (03:39):
Really?
Alejandro Varela (03:41):
it was this idea that we spend now, this is
very public healthy, but thatwhat happens to your brain
happens early and it reallyisn't like the jaws of life to
change it.
It's like you, it's a recordwith a scratch on it that get
mass produced with that scratch.
There's, it's really hard toundo that if at all.
There are ways are interventionsin this life, but I spend a lot
(04:02):
of my brain power thinking abouthow to undo patterns and ideas
and thoughts and things thatwere forged early on in my life
or that continue to be forcedupon us by depressed, by
capitalism, what have you.
And so that, yeah, so theconstant I'm undoing of it is.
(04:24):
Is is something that fascinatesme, and that's what I was
referring to with the Children'sGuide to Heartbreak.
Like, how do you, how could Iwrite something that, a younger
version, not of myself, but ifanyone could be like, oh, okay,
this is how you communicate.
This is how we overcome a lot ofthe stigma and the taboos and
the stress that come with them.
Jason Blitman (04:44):
You say this is gonna sound very public healthy.
For the listener who hasn't hada moment to read your bio, that
is because you have a master'sdegree in public health.
Yeah.
Alejandro Varela (04:52):
right.
So in, yeah, after college ittook a couple years to work in
like education and then.
I went to public health schoolnot knowing very little about
public health was, and when Ileft I was like, oh, this should
be the fifth year of high schoolfor everyone.
It's such a way to see societythat you can't undo.
It's a lens and then you put iton and then it's like the
(05:12):
matrix.
You never see anything the sameway the same way again.
You don't see people's actionsso much as you imagine their
histories and why they're doingthe things that they do, and why
we behave the way that we behaveand what it would take for those
behaviors to change.
That is with public health.
Studies teach you and I justfeel like a better person for
(05:33):
knowing that, but it alsoaffects how and what I write
about and how I write about.
Jason Blitman (05:38):
You said it should be everyone's fifth year
of high school.
And you just articulated some ofyour takeaways from it, but if
you could even be more succinct.
Is it because it helps focus theway you see the world?
Alejandro Varela (05:57):
Because we spend a lot of time in the weeds
in the society fighting overdownstream issues when we should
be talking about the upstreamreasons.
We spend a lot of time tellingpeople how to behave when we
don't, without thinking of thecircumstances that cause people
to behave the way that they do.
And so public health takes thelens out.
It pulls the lens out.
(06:18):
It's very, it's, yeah, it's
Jason Blitman (06:21):
it's so interesting to hear this,
segueing right into talkingabout the book because it feels
like that I'm sure you couldhave written the book otherwise,
but it feels like it was thatexperience that encouraged the
book or informed the book.
Alejandro Varela (06:37):
Absolutely.
I think it's, oh.
Can I ask, have you ever had todeal with grief of any kind?
Jason Blitman (06:45):
I have.
Alejandro Varela (06:46):
I have.
And have you ever had heartbreakin your life?
Romantic heartbreak.
Jason Blitman (06:50):
yeah.
Alejandro Varela (06:51):
And so you probably know that sort of grief
and other types of grief can beall consuming and it can be very
difficult to function in theworld when you have this sort of
ghost on you that no one canreally see or feel, but you're
feeling it and you're livingwith it all the time.
You still have to function.
You still have to be a parentand a member of society and go
(07:15):
to work.
And there is no.
Leave of absence for heartbreak,right?
And yet so many people have gonethrough it.
And when I was writing the book,I interviewed dozens of people.
Just randomly.
And I'd be like, have you everhad heartbreak in your life?
And the way those emotions cameto the surface, for every person
that I talked to, people whohave been happily married for 25
(07:36):
years, still remember.
Just that devastation, likewalking down the street crying,
like not being able to hold ittogether.
And I didn't realize that thatso many humans had experienced
this.
And so I started to imagine thatwe're all doing this, but we're
all worried about all the thingsthat are happening in life right
now.
We're worried about.
The state of democracy aboutSudan, Gaza, Yemen, you name it,
(08:00):
we're worried about it, butwe're also nursing broken hearts
and to make things worse, peoplein those situations are nursing
broken hearts.
And so I was just fascinated bythat idea that we as humans have
to juggle all of it.
Jason Blitman (08:12):
And so for the listener who has not had a
chance to pick it up yet, whatis your elevator pitch for
middle spoon?
Alejandro Varela (08:20):
Middle spoon is its heart.
I believe a love story.
Told through letters, unsentletters to the person who broke
the narrator's heart, whohappens to be a happily married
father of two who owns his homeand has achieved the American
dream as we've been told itshould be, and then experiences
(08:41):
this intense grief for the firsttime in his life.
So you have a middle aged personin effect, reverting to late
teenage years.
Being like, oh my God, the worldis falling apart.
I finally understand like everypop song that has ever been
written, like what, what'shappening.
And and so through these letterswe get to piece together what
this relationship was, why itwas meaningful, why it was
(09:04):
working, why it wasn't.
And in the process we realize heis also that this is how he's
gonna deal with all sorts ofstressors in his life.
So we also get a better sense ofhow he views the world.
But yeah, ultimately this, Ifeel this is a love story, but
one colored by grief.
Jason Blitman (09:20):
I.
Going back to what you weresaying about things that we've
all been through or felt orwhatever, was about halfway
through and I to both my husbandand your publicist and anyone
who would listen basically said,I hate this book.
And the reason why I hate it isbecause I relate so much to it.
(09:45):
I, you get so annoyed with themain character because.
You see yourself in thebehavior.
And I was, and it was sofrustrating'cause I was like I
was such a dumb teenager.
I was such a dumb 23-year-old,or, whatever it was.
And obviously I didn't actuallyhate the book.
I, otherwise I wouldn't havechosen it for my book club.
I loved the book, but it was oneof those things where it's like
(10:07):
I wanted to throw it against thewall because I so deeply saw
myself, but also I think.
It is such a universal story ofwhat we all go through when
we're grieving something,regardless of what it is and how
we behave.
Alejandro Varela (10:26):
Absolutely, and I think.
That was the shock of it.
I was going through a roughmoment in my life and I was
imagining everyone around megoing through that rough moment.
Like I started to have thistremendous empathy for everyone
around me, and I consideredmyself pretty.
I always thought I was a prettyempathic person, but I was like,
(10:49):
oh my God, that's maybe why thisperson is behaving this way and
maybe that's why this personbehaves this way.
Maybe that's.
So I wanted to write somethingthat everyone could relate to.
And I don't us, I don't writethat way.
I don't always think I have.
Who's my audience?
That's not me.
I want as many people aspossible to be able to
understand and relate to thethings that I write.
(11:11):
And but this time I thoughtgrief is pretty universal.
Heartbreak is universal.
Jason Blitman (11:17):
so it's interesting because yes, it is
super universal.
Yes, it is super relatable,except it is also not.
This in the context of thisbook.
It is in, within the package ofthis polyamorous relationship,
which I think is tremendouslytaboo.
It is so complicated and fraughtwith I think lots of confusion
(11:43):
and feelings, et cetera.
And there are so many thingsthat I underlined in the book or
highlighted or star or whatever.
Some of that was for me.
Personally, some of it was forme to share with you right now.
Some of it was, to say to myhusband, some of it was, there
was so much to take away.
But one of the things right nowthat I think is like at the
(12:03):
heart of the book is no oneimagines their life taking
several deviations from thenorm.
And that is said in the book andI think is such a great really
baseline.
Of what we're talking abouthere.
Part of the grief isn't justgrieving the loss of a
(12:27):
relationship, but it's the griefof what you expected your life
to look like, to not be thatway.
Alejandro Varela (12:35):
Thanks for that question or that comment.
Wait, did you wanna asksomething?
Jason Blitman (12:39):
So my follow up was gonna be, where did the sort
of putting this in the packageof polyamory come from?
Alejandro Varela (12:49):
I'm gonna have to give some credit to George.
Michael, let's put it out there.
I I heard an interview recentlyor my understanding of why he
gave an interview recently andsaid something that.
Suddenly seems so obvious to me,but I hadn't thought it about it
exactly this way.
He was being asked about gayculture and he was pretty much
bemoaning the circuit partyscene and how we had become so
(13:12):
vapid or superficial, and thisis in the nineties or whatever,
and it was a little judgy buthe, it was coming from place of
love because he was saying as acommunity, we are beautiful and
important and artistic and blah,blah, blah.
And the quite the interviewersaid why is the queer community
or the gay community, so theydidn't use queer, so artistic,
which is a stereotype, but hisargument was that if from an
(13:34):
early age you are asked toquestion such a basic, tenet of
society, of the way, we'resupposed to think that a boy
goes with a girl and they staytogether forever.
At some point you overcome thatidea.
If you're a gay person or evenif you're not, then suddenly you
think, wait a second.
What else were they wrong about?
(13:57):
If this most basic thing theygot completely wrong, then your
mind is suddenly open.
And I think some of what, whatsucks about the conformity and
the acceptance in these days ofbeing gay or queer is that.
You do you feel so happy thatyou're accepted in some ways
(14:17):
that you don't have to live thefear that the people that came
before us did that.
You suddenly are like, oh myGod.
I also want the one partner andthe house and the kids and the
dog and the subscriptions.
And some of that is just lifeand enjoying life, but some of
it I think is just a su likesuppressing.
(14:37):
Curiosities and desires and it,or it takes a lot of suppression
to get to that place.
And so I wanted, I, it would'vebeen easy to write a book about
a straight guy, what it was,heartbroken and is left alone,
and everyone would've related tothat heartbreak.
But I wanted to have convers abigger, broader conversation
(15:00):
about questioning society andwhat is acceptable and what
isn't.
And I believe to, to bring itback to George Michael, there is
something to art that is aboutcuriosity, a living curiosity
and always being like, but why?
But why?
And and that comes from the sortof foundation of coming out and
realizing you're not likeeveryone else.
(15:22):
So no, this book was not in away to, it wasn't to promote
unconventional romanticrelationships, although if it
does, wonderful.
But it was really about sayingwe can connect on this very
human thing and we can pushthrough all of the things we
don't have in common and stillconnect.
And I loved that idea, right?
That, that we could, do that.
Jason Blitman (15:42):
It's interesting.
I was just talking to an authorwho whose book is about someone
wanting to become an astronaut,and I was telling her because,
becoming an astronaut, it's likea, you have a 0.0, zero zero 1%
chance of that ever happening,even for the person who wants to
become one.
In doing so.
(16:02):
There is enough sort of spaceand removal and fantastical
element that allows you to tapinto the other honest moments in
the book.
This comes up when I talked toGabrielle ZA few years ago,
about tomorrow and tomorrow andtomorrow, because I was saying
to her, I'm not a video gameperson at all, and I loved the
book so much and I couldn't helpbut compare it to Friday Night
(16:25):
Lights.
I couldn't even tell you a rulein football and like maybe I
could throw out some words liketouchdown.
But I loved that show so muchbecause there was this buffer,
or she explained to me that shethinks it's because there's this
buffer of you don't feel sodeeply rooted in the story that
you have the space to be able tohave a deeper, meaningful
(16:48):
relationship with thecharacters.
So in a way, I think that.
Through the lens of polyamory, alot of people will actually be
able to relate in a very uniqueway because what's so special
about the book that we don'toften get to experience people
who have been in long-termrelationships is the ending of a
(17:11):
relationship.
So late in life, but you stillhave the foundation of another
one.
And so as an adult you'regrieving the loss of a young
mark relationship, which is it'ssuch a unique experience to have
and to think about,
Alejandro Varela (17:28):
and also as a writer really put me in an
interesting situation because Ithought not only do I have to
get past maybe some conservativethinking, or but also just
feeling sorry for people whoalready have enough, right?
And so I think for a lot ofpeople, they're like what, how?
(17:51):
He's happily married to awonderful person and he has two
children and all the otherstuff, like he can pay the
bills.
It's very, and so I, I waswriting with that mindset
thinking, I have to get past, Ihave to get past that hurdle as
well and write this in a waythat they can really connect to.
And then maybe also.
(18:11):
A better understanding of theunconventionality of the.
Jason Blitman (18:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And also I think it's a,suddenly this is becoming
A-A-P-S-A for the book, whichobviously it is, but there's
something to be said about itbeing a tool to engage in
conversation aboutunconventional.
Experiences, relationships,sexual encounters, what have
(18:36):
you.
Another quote in the book is,when I was 30, I thought
polyamory was an untenableextravagance for unserious and
possibly degenerate people tothe person who.
Saw the announcement that thisis the October gays reading book
club pic, and they're in theclub and they're like, eh,
(18:58):
polyamory is this thing that'san untenable extravagance for
unserious and possiblydegenerate people.
What would you say to thatperson who's like anxious about
picking up the book or feelslike it's not gonna be for them?
Alejandro Varela (19:12):
I would say that.
But it's it's fun to bechallenged when you're reading.
It's,
Jason Blitman (19:22):
Yeah.
Alejandro Varela (19:22):
I consider it a pleasure to be in a space
where I'm forced to confront orthink about things that I would
otherwise avoid in my everydaylife and in the safety of like
my brain and in my living room,and I consider that, oh God,
this is so fool of myself, but alittle bit of a service as a
writer to be able to say, Hey,let's grapple with these things
on our own.
(19:43):
I'm not gonna call you intopublic square and ask you to
answer questions.
Just think about these things.
And I also try to writecharacters who are growing on
the page too, so that it doesn'tfeel like.
There's a balance to thelecturing.
There's a balance to the, to allthe information that I put on
the page.
There's a kind of, I'm human tothe narrator saying, I'm also
(20:04):
figuring this out.
And I think if you putvulnerability on the page, it
makes the reader vulnerable.
And so it's really important forme to always be vulnerable on
the page.
That's what I see.
And I would also say that Iheard someone say this recently.
In fact, it was Anna Gasti, theSNL Alum Broadway and Broadway
Star, and she said she came toFire Island she said something
(20:28):
to the effect of, it's weird.
It's always weird until myfriend does it.
Until your friend does it.
It's weird.
And in a way.
I write things that I hope makeyou feel that relationship like
that was so weird until I sawsomeone go through it,
Jason Blitman (20:43):
and that, it's, I am, I'm so glad that you just
said all of that because inchoosing the book for the club
that.
At the core is why I was soexcited about it, why I am so
excited about it, and for peopleto read it because it is so
accessible.
But it really challenges you asa reader to just think about
something that on one hand feelsso familiar and on another hand
(21:07):
feels so foreign.
And yeah, I'm, I am just excitedfor.
For everyone to grapple with awhole bunch of questions that
will, I think, pop up for thereader along the way.
Alejandro Varela (21:20):
Thank you for saying that.
Jason Blitman (21:22):
you just mentioned on Gassier the, you
are clearly a theater fan.
Alejandro Varela (21:29):
I am a fan of theater.
Yes.
Jason Blitman (21:31):
We have to talk about Martin McDonough.
Alejandro Varela (21:33):
Oh I just think he's fantastic.
He's such a brilliant writer andhe really, his films really do a
great job of capturing scene andcharacter in a way that makes
you feel like you're caught upin something very.
Personal or interpersonal, butit's global.
It's bigger.
(21:54):
And I, that, that's like styleof art making that I really
appreciate.
Jason Blitman (21:58):
I'm such a fan of his work, his play, the Pillow
Man is far and away among myfavorites.
Alejandro Varela (22:02):
Oh wow.
Yeah.
He's
Jason Blitman (22:04):
We have to talk about another Martin that comes
up in the book, Martin Short andFather of the Bride,
Alejandro Varela (22:10):
Yeah.
It makes a cameo.
Jason Blitman (22:13):
He makes a cameo.
Again, I don't need to give anycontext, but one of the best
absolutely one of my favoritemovies of all time.
Father brought both parts oneand part two.
Are, you're clearly a fan of themovies
Alejandro Varela (22:25):
I am a huge fan, more of one than of two,
but I love both
Jason Blitman (22:28):
fair?
Alejandro Varela (22:28):
And I think I, I meant it when I said the.
He's unsung heroes over theyears.
Martin Short is getting hisflowers right now, and I'm,
we're all happy about that.
Even those of us who Yeah.
Don't
Jason Blitman (22:41):
though we've been in Camp Martin short for so
long, I mean the same is truefor Parker Posey.
Alejandro Varela (22:46):
Yes, absolutely.
And it does make you think andpersonal Everett, if we're
leaving the genre, it's nicewhen it happens and it can if
all goes well, it'll happen inlifetime when we're still
rooting for Alfre Woodard.
It's gonna come for her
Jason Blitman (22:58):
yes.
my God.
Alejandro Varela (23:01):
But yeah, Martin, short to me, really pop
culture is such a barometer, notjust for this narrator, but for
me too.
Grew up measuring myself attheir popularity contest really.
And so you just start to measureyourself against what or read
and hear, and then you see thesestandards that they have award
shows, and then that becomes apart of your like, lens too, or
(23:22):
at least mine.
And then you're like, wait asecond, why is these, why are
these people getting ignored allthe time?
And anyway, everyone knowscomedy doesn't get it.
The attention that it should orthe love.
And Martin Short is one of thosepeople, and his Hans is
ridiculous and brilliant and
Jason Blitman (23:37):
The party pooper song, everything about it is so
good.
Alejandro Varela (23:42):
Yeah,
Jason Blitman (23:42):
course, I know that you like part one more, but
in part two there's the babyworkout there.
It's, it is just
Alejandro Varela (23:48):
He's great.
He's really good.
And that's why, that's my pitch.
And this is in the book.
I don't wanna give too muchaway, but that is my pitch for.
Oscar for best featured work
Jason Blitman (23:59):
Yes,
Alejandro Varela (24:00):
after supporting.
Some people may have felt thatMartin wasn't in it long enough
or didn't carry enough sort ofemotional weight in the book,
but his presence really liftsthe film
Jason Blitman (24:09):
Yes, 100%.
The other pop culture theaterreference that comes up that I
cannot avoid talking about isAlex Ripley and Emily Skinner in
sides show the musical talkabout a deep cut.
Ran on Broadway for threemonths.
Alejandro Varela (24:24):
It's funny, I didn't see the musical and I
haven't read it, but I rememberthe moment and I remember the
Tony Awards and I just, Iremember reading about it and I
do love this idea that art canbe collaborative, right?
And I do think Tom Halls shouldhave won the Oscar with f Murray
Abraham for Amadeus.
They should have won ittogether.
They needed each other.
(24:45):
One was not more important thanthe other.
And and so I love to think of aworld in which artists or
performances and creation iscollaborative.
Which is why when the two guyswho did everything everywhere,
all at once won the Oscartogether, that happens
periodically,
Jason Blitman (25:00):
yeah.
Alejandro Varela (25:01):
and these categories that are thought of
as very individualistic, you'relike, whoa, two directors.
That's wild.
And that day one, I thought thatwas pretty cool.
Jason Blitman (25:08):
And circle it back to the book.
Our narrator who, this hasn'tcome up yet, but our narrator is
unnamed, which is why we haven'treferred to him by a name, but
our narrator cannot be theperson that he is without his
husband.
They would win the awardtogether, even though he's the
protagonist of the book, so isthis symbiosis circling around
(25:30):
the middle spoon?
Alejandro Varela (25:32):
Yeah and I think, gosh, the husband
character I feared would be the,would be really difficult for
the reader because when we talkabout unconventional
relationships, open marriages,polyamory, I think the people
who are skeptical often putthemselves in the place of that
husband and they're like.
(25:53):
I wouldn't take it.
I would feel mistreated.
I would feel rejected.
I would, and this guy's handlingit so well, and I think I wanted
to talk about the fact that thathusband exists in this world.
There are people who don'toperate from a scarcity mindset
when it comes to love.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (26:08):
Yeah.
And I think something I'mthinking about a lot all the
time is how we only live once,how we're only alive for a short
amount of time.
How, the world is.
Big and there's a lot of love togo around.
And it's, it gets interestingand complicated and this book
asks a lot of those questionsand challenges some thoughts,
(26:29):
and I'm so excited for everyoneto read it.
Middle Spoon by Alejandro RelaOut now, but also join the Gay
Reading Book Club through Altoa.
You could check the link in theshow notes and in the Instagram
link tree.
Before I let you go, what arethree words that you would use
to describe the book?
Alejandro Varela (26:54):
Polyamory parenting and public health.
Public health is two words,
Jason Blitman (26:59):
That's okay.
I'll
Alejandro Varela (27:00):
but the other.
But the other one I was thinkingwas pop culture, which would've
also been two words.
Jason Blitman (27:04):
And all very alliterative.
Alejandro Varela (27:06):
Very.
Jason Blitman (27:07):
and if you.
What is a question you wouldwant to ask a book club?
Who has read the book?
Alejandro Varela (27:16):
Can you imagine a world in which
polyamory or an unconventionalsort of open.
Model.
The way we see in the book isnormalized.
Jason Blitman (27:29):
Love that.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Alejandro Varela (27:33):
Thank you.
Jason Blitman (27:34):
I'm so
Alejandro Varela (27:34):
I love it.
Thanks Jason.
This a lot of fun.
I really appreciate.
Thank you.
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