Olivia Laing (The Silver Book) feat. Michael "Dancing Blue Shirt Guy" Galyean, Guest Gay Reader

Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Gaze reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
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Anyone can listen.
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So you say you're not gay.

(00:24):
Well that's okay.
There's something for everyone.
Gays rating.
Hello, and welcome to Gay'sReading.
I'm your host, Jason Blitman,and on today's episode I have
Olivia Lang talking to me abouttheir new book, the Silver Book,

(00:46):
and my guest gay reader today isMichael Galyean, who.
Became internet famous when hewas in this fantastic video.
Uh, and he's known as theDancing Blue Shirt guy.
Um, I will post a link to thevideo in the show notes.
It is so delightful.
It's a minute long.
Go check that out.

(01:06):
Anyway, if you are new to Gay'sreading, welcome.
So happy to have you.
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(01:27):
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and if you are so inclined toleave a five star review or just
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(01:48):
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anyway, I, yeah.
Leave, leave a review over,particularly on Apple Podcasts
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I'm producing a book festival inPalm Springs.
You can learnmore@psbookfest.org.
There are some fantastic authorsthat have been announced so far,
like Jonathan Capehart and ChrisWhitaker and, Claire Lombardo.

(02:13):
Um, I almost just spoiledsomeone who hasn't been
announced yet.
Oh, and Bruce Holsinger, ofcourse, the author of
Culpability and Show Barau whowrote Indian Country and Lily
Brooks Dalton, whose book TheLight Pirate came out a couple
of years ago, which I loved.
her new book Ruins comes out onMarch 31st and we're doing the

(02:34):
premier event for that book atthe Palm Springs Book Festival.
So lots of super fun stuffhappening there.
Again, ps book fest.org to learnmore about that.
Anyway, lots of really excitingfolks.
The end of March, March 27ththrough the 29th, tickets are on
sale now.
There's a free community day,uh, that's happening on the
Sunday.
If you are in the San Diego areaon December 4th, I'm gonna be in

(02:57):
conversation with Ann Packer,who is this month's Oprah's
booklet pick for her book.
Some write nowhere are, I think,are there other announcements?
Um Oh right.
The book club.
I just announced the Decemberbook Club pick, which is like
Family by Erin O White Ireleased a spoiler free
conversation with Erin the otherday, so if you are curious about

(03:20):
the book, you could listen tothat spoiler free.
Uh, before joining the club, andall that said.
Please enjoy my conversationswith Olivia Lang and Michael
Gallion, AKA dancing blue shirtguy.

Jason Blitman (03:35):
Um, I, Wait, tell me about this other book that
you had coming

Olivia Laing (03:40):
I can't even show you a copy'cause I forgot to
bring one home.
It's it's a decade ofcollaboration with my friend
who's a painter, Chantel Joffe.
So I, she's been doing paintingshows and I've been writing the
catalog essays for them for 10years and we decided to make a
book that gathered all of thosetogether.
So we did it with MacBooks.
It's incredibly beautiful.

(04:00):
It's more high-end than thestuff that I normally do, but.
It's got like a beautiful linencover and at the end there's
like a conversation of ustalking to each other about
making, so it feel we wanted itto be like a resource for young
artists

Oh, that's really interesting and such an
interesting parallel to theSilver Book.

making.
Yeah.

How dare you say, higher end than

Oh my God.

Do you see this cover?
Do you see this is, so, myhusband looked at this and he
was like, that is literary.
If I've ever seen it,

it isn't it?
But also fabulous.
I like that it has this likeit's disco.

it's disco.
It's like a door opening.
There's a lot going on

Yeah.
It's perfect.
It's such a good cover.

So how dare you call this

Yeah, that trashy?
No.
End book.

That's what I heard

Okay.
Don't tell FSG.

Olivia, welcome to Gay's Reading.

very happy to be here.

I had to officially welcome you of course
here to talk about the SilverBook.
What.
Is your elevator pitch.

Okay.
It is a queer love story, and atthe same time, it's a noirish
thriller set inside the dreamfactory of 1970s Italian cinema.
That's my one sentence.

Yeah, and honestly, like I don't even have
that many notes because the bookis so propulsive and so slim
that I don't want to give muchaway, even though it's
historical.
So there's like a lot that.
We can pull from.
So let's start with that.
Actually.
First of all, Danil and I havethe same birthday,

okay.

same year.
Not the same year.
Of

he's a little older.

a little bit was mehi, rest in peace.
Um, but we do, so how did thesort of historical angle come
for you?
This is, these are, to unpackthat a little bit, this is based
on.
It is your interpretation ofthings that could have happened
based on real facts.

Yeah, so let me say the world that it's in, it's
set in 1974 and 1975, and it'saround the making of two flawed
masterpieces, I think Fellini'sCasanova and Pasolini Sallow, or
the 120 Days of Sodom, thisapocalyptic horror film with
deep moral and political intent.
And I was very interested inboth those films.

(06:34):
I was watching a lot of moviesduring the Pandemic, and those
Palestinian Fellini came up veryhigh in that list, And for years
I've been wanting to try athriller.
So I've been looking for a sortof world that I could set a
thriller in.
Not like thinking about it everyday, but at the back of my mind.
And I got more and more interestin Italian cinema and Italian
politics.
The seventies is a very febrileperiod in Italy.

(06:55):
Then I was reading a lot aboutOL's murder, and there's this
story that some reels werestolen from his final film,
which potentially were used tolure him to his death.
That's a really interestingstory.
And then I realized that reelswere stolen from the Fellini
film at the same time.
They were being made at the sametime.
They were being made at the samefilm set in each Qatar.

(07:17):
And hello.
They had some of the same crew.
So I suddenly realized thatthere was this whole drama
happening and that at the centerof that was this gorgeous
costume designer, dti person ofa very significant birthday.
But also, do you know thiswonderful, interesting artist

(07:39):
who hasn't had his Jews, who'snot a star like Fellini and
Pasolini, but is very talented.
And I started to think what if Iput Danilo at the center of this
story?
And then the idea of a lovestory came into my mind, and
that's how it became two thingsat once.

Yeah.
What, so taking it even furtherback, what was the inspiration
to start to watch these moviesduring COVID?
What was, what even started

Can you remember why you did anything in COVID?
I dunno.
I was

Listen, I.

psychically.

I became a big reader during COVID, so I
understand the sort of thingsthat we would pick up, but it
seems like a very specific genreof film to start with or to like
to be

Yeah.

during COVID.
I was watching rom-coms andthings that were gonna distract
me and not think about the worldand the, I imagine that's,

I think there was a funny completionist urge
during COVID though.
I don't think I was the onlyperson that was like, okay, I'm
gonna get my way through thiswhole body of things.
That sense that you were justwasting time all the time and
that you wanted to make it meansomething perhaps was in my
mind, but also I just lovedthem.
They were very seductive andFellini films are very

(08:56):
beautiful.
They are, very sexy and erotic,but charged with melancholy and
the Pasolini films that I waswatching, especially the Trilogy
of Life, they're like full ofjoy and very playful.
So they were very uplifting towatch, and I think they're films
that need time.
You can't come home in theevening from an exhausting day
and be like, Hey, I'm gonna sitdown and do the next pasolini

(09:17):
session.
So it was good to have thosedays where it was like.
Nothing's happening.
I'll lose myself in this.
It was an alternate realityalmost that I wanted to just
plunge into.
And I guess it's also worthsaying, I plan to put Pasolini
in the Garden Against Time,which is my last book, the last
nonfiction book.
And this happens to me all thetime, that there's somebody I

(09:39):
want in a book and they escapeme.
They allude me, and then I'mlike I'll get you in the next
one.
And so that kind of happened.
I was still chasing

he was sort of set aside.

I was like, you can get away this time, but I'm
coming after you.
I'm really interested in cinemaand I really am, I'm really
visual.
I've been writing about art forthe last.
at least.
And I think the idea of tryingto make a novel that almost was
a film was very beguiling.

(10:09):
So this really function, it's inlanguage, but it also functions
very visually.
It's like seen.

yes.
How did that element come to be?
It's like I'm, I.
A few minutes ago mentioned thatit's relatively slight.
It's a slim book, but

not gonna say slight, we're gonna say slender.
It's

slender, slender, slender.
Yes, yes, Yes.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Um, sturdy.

Stocky little fellow.

Yes, exactly.
Um, but yeah, even just if onewere to flip through the pages,
you could see it's really brokenup into these.
Scenes, for lack of a betterword.
It's like exactly what it's, howdid you approach that

Yeah.
So the genesis of this book isstrange because I had the idea,
I almost, I was in Venice in2023 and.
I was in a water taxi and I hadthis vision of dlo meeting this
redheaded English boy and thislike electric spark of
attraction happening.

Uhhuh?

And I was like, oh, this is the novel.
This is great.
It's called the Silver Book.
But then I couldn't write itbecause I had a whole I, the
garden against time was comingout.
I was touring for a long time,so I had to tuck it away in a
little safe for a year.
And then when I did come towrite it, which is last
September in Rome.
It was like it had just beencooking on its own and it was

(11:27):
really, I worked out what Ithought was the plot.
I'd written a skeletonstructure, which is how I
structure my books anyway.
But when I came to write it, itjust was as if there was this
voice in my head and I wrote itdown, but also very strongly I
could see it scene by scene.
I could see the scenes unfoldingin front of me.
So I was really describing whatwas in my head as if I was

(11:48):
watching a film.
And that's.
A very unusual way ofconstructing for me.
So it felt like it really wentshot after shot.
And that's why those chaptersare often very short and very
circumscribed

Yeah.
Do you think that part of it isbecause there were these sort of
preexisting tent posts for you?
Because it's so historical.

maybe.
But I think also I'm.
I'm a nonfiction writer.
I've written a lot ofnonfiction.
They're very archive based.
They're big, long, slow books,and I think it was just so
exciting to be like, I'm free.
I don't have to fill in all theconnective tissue.
I don't have to write 45 pages.
On the years of lead in Italy,these people are living their

(12:30):
lives.
They're having sex.
They're not thinking about.
All of those details, all ofthose things are happening in
the periphery.
They're out of the corner ofpeople's eyes, but people are
focused on what's right in frontof them.
What am I trying to make today?
What am I going to eat?
That boy is really hot.
That's the kind of stuff that'sgoing on in their heads.

And also that's how it's written It's there.
There's not a lot of lingeringto be had, which I think is very
refreshing for a book like this.
You can sort of appreciate thelanguage, you appreciate the
scenery, and you're just like,okay, what's happening?
Let's, bring it on.
Um.
The epigraph is a Fellini quote,and the end of the quote is, I

(13:09):
am what I invent.
Is that true for you in yourbooks and your writing?

That is a good question.
I think so.
And I think there is a kind oftruth in invention.
This is really a book aboutillusions and it's about lots of
different kind of illusions,some.
Seductive illusions, somenourishing illusions and some
really dangerous illusions, thedangerous illusions of fascism,
which sadly we are all becomingmore familiar with by the day.

(13:35):
So it's about that, but it'salso about these sort of
seductive beautiful illusions ofart that tell us the truth about
our world.
And yeah, I guess that's thebusiness I'm in.

How do you relate to your work in that way?

How do I relate to it?
What do you mean?
If

you are what you, invent and you are an artist and
it's this whole world is aboutillusion, how does that sort of
integrate into your real life?

that's a good question because I think the
more books you write, the more.
Your real life expands, or themore the internal world of you
becomes an external world.
We've all got these internalworlds inside us and things that
fascinate us.
But the strange thing about theartist, and perhaps particularly
the writer, is you make thisexoskeleton and you let other
people have a look at it.
So actually, increasingly,strangers know my inner life,

(14:36):
perhaps even better than I do,because they're objectively
seeing it.
So it's a strange.
It's a strange process, whichactually I think one doesn't
want to look at too closelybecause the weirdness of it
would stop you being able to doit almost.

However, do you think that putting it out there
gives you a freedom to moveabout the world in a freer
capacity?
Does that make sense?

Possibly.
Possibly.
And also I think I'm really keenwith each book of going I'm
moving on now.
I'm going to differentterritory.
I'm gonna make somethingunexpected.
You are not gonna get a sense ofwhat my next book is gonna be,
because it will be a jump.
And this one is the biggestjump.
This one feels like it was areal reckless leap into the
unknown in terms of structureand in terms of subjects.

where did that sort of risk taking come from?

I dunno, I don't know, but I've always hated the
idea of repeating myself orplaying safe.
I always want my work to be,frightening me, making me think,
oh my God, what am I doing here?
Yeah.
That feels very important to meto not keep, there's a strong
commercial imperative to keepwriting the same book.
And I think a lot of peoplewould've liked me to write the
lonely city for the rest of mylife.

(15:49):
didn't wanna do that.

Yeah.
So what sort of fear did thisdust up in you?

Oh my God.
Will everybody hate it?
What will happen?
What if it's ter?
What if it's really crummy?
And also, of course, writingfiction about real people.
What if you mess it up?
What if you dishonor them insome way?
And I think I take that veryseriously.
That sort of imperative for thenonfiction writer of doing right
by people.
And I've written about a lot of.

(16:15):
People in my life who I reallylove.
David Rovic is obviously areally central character, and
Danilo Dati and Pasolini alsothey're really iconic and
special people, so I very muchwanted to make sure that the
book told their stories in a waythat allowed them their total
dignity and complexity.

Yeah,

the big risk, is like getting that right.

sure.
And I'm also curious, you justtalking about.
How you didn't need to write 45pages about, what did you say?
The history of lead or whateverit was that you said Was it
scary?
Was the economy of words scary

No, it was thrilling.
It was absolutely thrilling.
It was really great.
I've written a lot of thosebooks where it really is filling
in every detail.
And no, I, with this one, I justwanted to leap and just write
what excited me on the page, andI think that's why the book has
that sort of sense of excitementbecause all of the connective
tissue is cut away.

It's funny, like it's scary for me on your
behalf, even though it wasn'tscary for you, simply because
I'm just like, I am the kind ofperson who over explains myself
because I wanna make sure thatI'm understood.
So I'll say a version of thesame sentence three different
times to my husband, and itdrives him crazy.
So the idea of, not saying morewhen you are used to saying so

(17:30):
much more for me, stresses meout on your

Yeah, that's interesting.
And I guess the big risk isbeing misunderstood.
Not leaving a clear enoughtrail, but I think that felt
very exciting and reallyliberating.
Yeah, it was.
It's the most exciting book I'veever written.
I it, I wrote it for two and ahalf months.
I thought about it for a longtime, but the actual writing was
two and a half months and thatwas just wild.
It was so exciting the wholetime.

that's crazy.
Two and a half months.
Okay.
You said you wrote it in Romelast September.
what was that?
Did you, so you said you'vebeen, it's been stewing in your
brain, you did a skeleton.
What is that process like?
Writing a novel in two and ahalf months?
That is unheard of.

yeah.
It was actually, I think in theold days people used to write
novels very fast, like mural

We're not in the old days anymore, Olivia.

now we like to spend a long time, but I think,
I probably will never have thatexperience again.
It came out hot, it came out inthat way.
But I went to Rome.
I lived at the British School,which is by the Esei Gardens,
and I would write, and then Iwould walk around the town.
I would go and look at the tiand think, what color is it
today?
And I would take fragments fromthe city and fragments from my

(18:40):
experiences and put them intothe book.
I went to the archive whereDanilo Donati's costumes are,
which was really amazing.
So I was doing research as I wasgoing along, but.
By the end, I was getting up atsix in the morning and I was
going to bed at two, and thewhole time I was just writing
and writing like steam comingoff my keyboard.
It was ecstatic and now it'sover and it's a very sad

(19:02):
experience.
Actually we are talking, we'retalking on the 14th of November
and I think I finished it on the16th of November.
So this time last year I wasjust in that lava zone and then
I finished it on a train fromRome to Milan.
So we are really, yeah, it'sreally nice to be so close to
that anniversary.

that's crazy to me.
I, first of all it is, I feellike it is so unheard of.
The books pour out that quicklyin these days, um, and to finish
it, and then a year later see itin the bookstore.

Yeah, and the really wild thing is it's out in
Italian now too, so we managedto get the whole translation
done within that period.
My translator was a veryextraordinary person and really
we worked on it very closelytogether.
So yeah, it's been a whi, it'sbeen a whirlwind.

Wow.
That's so cool.
you talked about being on theboat in Venice and immediately
had this moment.
You were like, this is what thelove story is gonna be.
This is what the book is gonnabe called first.
Where did that title come from?
Where did the silver book comefrom for you?

I dunno where it came from.
It titles always happen likethis.
I have holding titles for books.
Like for years, the Bo, theeverybody was called The Body
Book.
And then one day I was walkingacross the park and I went,
everybody, it's calledeverybody.
So I know that at some point thetitle comes, and with this one,
the title came almost beforeeverything else.
And I guess silver for theSilver Screen cinema, but also.
The Silver Book, this sense ofreflection and illusion and

(20:34):
mystery.
There are a lot of mirrors inthe book.
There's a lot of people gazinginto reflections that aren't
quite right.
So the Silver Book felt, theSilver Book felt, I don't know,
powerful to me a powerful title.

Yeah.
That's, again, fascinating.
The way that this is all justpouring out of you is not what
I'm used to hearing.
Um, there's,

clearly that my nonfiction is very crafted and
boring and archive rich, andthis is

this is also very this is also very crafted.
Like I don't want It to soundlike.
It poured out of you at, in asort of hodgepodge, crazy way?
No.
It's, I think that's what's sosurprising to me.
It does feel so meticulous, andso to hear that it happened as
swiftly as it did cool.

Yeah, and it's very, it's strange.
My editor said he, he hasn't hadthat experience of being handed
something.
That's a first draft.
That is basically the finishedbook we did.
We made very few changes becauseit was a very sort of clockwork
plot.
It's very tightly built, andthat was the thing I was
thinking about beforehand.
So some of that changed, but thekind of intricacies of that were
the result of a lot of

don't a hundred percent.
And I don't know that you couldhave written this book or anyone
could have written this bookwithout.
Your experience and your historywith your

You couldn't, it's not a first

they really do go hand in hand.
Not only is it not a fir firstbook, but it's the research I
think for you came so naturallyright.
It was so real.
It could have been nonfictionjust based on, you know, who you
are.
So the other than.
Who these men were, right?

(22:13):
And the fact that they werequeer.
Where did the book is just likedeeply rooted in queerness.
What was the importance of thatfor you?
What, where did that sort ofcome from?

Yeah, I'm a trans person who grew up in a gay
family, so it is in a waycompletely my world, and yet
it's.
A gay man's world from a periodjust before I was born.
I was born in 77, so it's anattempt to grasp the world.
As I came into it and as I waswriting it, it became clearer
and clearer that it's a bookwhere an enormous amount of the

(22:45):
damage done and an enormousamount of the sort of driver for
the damage that happens.
Inside the book is homophobia.
Nicholas is running away fromhomophobia.
The men in Italy have this kindof beautiful, gorgeous society.
World.
World, within a world, butthey're surrounded by absolute
hatred.
They're despised.
It's such a homophobic time inItaly.

(23:06):
The fact that Pasadena's murderwas understood as.
Being killed by a re boy.
And of course that's what'sgonna happen to a queer, of
course he's gonna be killed on awaste ground.
So you have that sense ofhomophobia is a violent force
surrounding everybody.
And it is absolutely nocoincidence that I wrote this
book as a trans person in 2025,because we are back in that kind

(23:29):
of violence and horror again.
We're back in that kind ofhatred that I remember from my
childhood growing up during theAIDS crisis and.
I wanted to talk about thisdesire to build an alternative
world, this desire to make analternative community that is
filled with joy and creativityin making, because I think we
all need to remember that we cando that.

Yeah.
Speaking of making what doesthat mean to you as someone
who's been writing about art foras long as you have been?

Yeah I'm fascinated by those lucky
artists that get to work withmaterials rather than words.
Because the thing for a writeris you're working with language,
that's your material.
You don't get to be like in thestudio messing around with paper
and paint and having that sortof joyous experience.
And I think cinema fascinates mebecause it's so material,
especially this cinema, which ispre CGI, it's pre ai.

(24:22):
It's not digital, it's allanalog.
And also.
It's collaborative, it'scommunal.
It's not really a cinema ofegos.
It's a lot of, there's the onegrand director and there are the
actors, but then there are allof these people who are making
sets, who are making costumesand they're working together.
And I wanted to celebrate thatworld, that much more anonymous

(24:43):
world and that much more kind ofdown to earth world.
Because I think that to me, it'sthe core of being human, that
desire to make things together.
As we move into a world wherehuman creativity is handed over
to ai, we have to resist that.
We have to celebrate and reclaimour own, to make,

It's funny to hear you talk about someone
getting to go into a studio andplay with paint or clay Because
you're talking about going tosee the Dan Dilas collection,
right?
And like most people for theirjob, they don't get to do
something like that either.
So the and I do, there are someauthors who will.

(25:24):
Sort of dive in headfirst on anart project in order to inspire
Other work.
And I think there is latitude alittle bit in what creatives in
general are capable or are ableto do for their specific art.
Um, that I think is reallyinteresting versus, a lawyer.

Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, and I think maybe that'sthe kind of compensatory thing
that I got more and moreinterest in visual art and in
archive work because I was like,I don't want to just be thinking
about words.
I want to move, I want to movemy practice into stuff that is
physical because it, I adore it.
It's what I find really excitingand interesting to work around.

Is there, are there things in the practical
world, in the last chunk of timethat have been exciting to you
or that you've gotten toexperience so that.
Made you think about the worlddifferently?
I don't know.
Did have you blown glass?
Have you, Did you make a quilt?
Did I don't know.
Was there, I think people justlike you watching the films,

(26:24):
right?
I think people can have tactileexperiences that really shape
how they experience

Yeah, and really I think for me that's been
gardening and having thatexperience of thinking about
gardening so deeply whilewriting the garden against time
building the garden at the sametime.
I think that was probably quitea deep experience of changing
how I approached how I wrote,because I realized that
gardening is this very.

(26:49):
Daily activity that you returnto it, you play with it, you
plan.
And I think it introduced thekind of playfulness into my
writing that perhaps actuallyfacilitated this book.
I don't know, this is a kind ofnew question for me, so I
haven't thought about thisbefore, but I think maybe that
was part of it, that it let metake more risks.

Have you read Audition by Katie Kid?

No, but it is very much on my list to read.
It's funny you should say that.

These books I feel like are very distant
cousins.

Hmm.

Because if her book is about the sort of
artifice of playing a role andhow every day we are deciding to
put on a costume and, know, therole that we're playing there's
so much about this book that isabout the artifice of life and
What is real and what is fake.
And when I wrote the note of.

Yeah.

A fake world.
I.
I sort of contra, notcontradicted myself, but I
second guessed myself and Iwanted to change what I was
thinking.
'cause it's not necessarily fakeso much as an alternate reality.

But I think fake is a really interesting word,
and it was in my head while Iwas writing it because on some
level, the trans person isalways in a negotiation around
fakeness.
You are trying to.
Explain to the world that whatis inside you is not what the
world is seeing.
You're trying to produce anidentity that is solid when it's

(28:09):
constantly fracturing or beingviolently fractured from
outside, and you are forced intothis sort of negotiation with
your reality being regarded asfake, and that can be extremely
painful.
And, physically enacted by thestate.
So it's it was very much in myhead.

(28:29):
And then all of those kind ofclassic queer novels like Ripley
are very engaged in fakeness.
There's this sense thatqueerness and fakeness is
entangled in a way.
And I think that became veryinteresting to me to have this
young boy enter this world and.
Have to negotiate with what'sreal and what's fake and what's
real and what's fake about him.
He feels fake all the time.

(28:50):
He feels fraudulent and like aforger, but actually in some
ways his problem is really thathe's almost too real.
He can't produce the convincingillusion of who he should be all
the time.
Sometimes he's just porous andvulnerable and afraid, and that
makes him, again, vulnerable tomanipulations.

It's interesting to hear you say all of that,
because the reason why I shiftedfrom fake world to alternate
reality is because.
To a designer, the world thatthey create is real.

Exactly.
That's what I'm saying.
Yes.
So who's calling it fake?
Who's

Right, right, right,

for whom is it real?
And I think that's the thingabout, is art fake?
Are you making up fake things?
Are they lies or are you sayingthe thing that's most real about
yourself?
And that question, that sort ofuncomfortable question is really
key in this book.
So it flu, it fluctuates thewhole time.
The idea of what's an illusionand what's real and what, when

(29:50):
is somebody telling the deepesttruth about themself by way of
something that is actually anartificial reality?

And yet We do put on a costume every day.
What is that?
What is, what makes it realversus what makes this shirt
that I'm

Exactly.
Yeah.

What,

Which brings us back to the whole kind of Judith
Butler gender trouble situationthat we are also, the whole idea
of producing gender as amasquerade.
It's a masquerade that everybodyengages in and hates, to be
told, is a masquerade.
So I think that, I think it'sactually very uncomfortable for
people to confront how much weare all performing all the time.

(30:33):
And it feels like it was a bigquestion of seventies cinema,
films like performance NickRogue's performance, very
engaged in that.
What's the real self and what'sthe underlying self and what is
just the sort of masqueradethat's being produced on a daily
basis for different purposes,some of which is seduction or
power or intrigue of variouskinds.

(30:53):
And the book is definitelyengaged in those sort of
questions.

Yeah, it's

and yeah, at the same time, it's it's also a
story of this isn't work withoutconsequences.
This isn't just this kind ofrealm of free play for artists
to mess around with identity,because actually for Pasolini,
what he's trying to do is createa fable that tells the truth
about fascism and the price hepays for that is his life.
He's beaten to death, he's runover by his own car and his

(31:22):
heart explodes.
So those things are not lies.
Those things are not artifice.
Those things are as real as factgets.
It's high stakes work thatthey're engaged in

It is high stakes work and yet existing in the
book.
It is in turn fake because it'sa novel, but it really happened.

Yeah,

right?
So like there are all of the,

Pasolini speaks.
Many times in the book.
Those are his real words.
So he really is speaking throughthe book that you have this
sense sometimes when he's sayingthings in Corri or when he is
giving his last interview, thatis Lin's actual voice.
The final interview that he gavethe last day before he was
killed.

(32:12):
His final words that wererecorded on Earth come through
the page and they are absolutelyreal.
And the warnings that he'sgiving about the return of
fascism, about how fascism willmeld with capitalism about the
ecological and socialdegradation that will follow
pasadena's frightening warningsthat came true.
Those things are real.

Well, And it also, it like is all real,
right?
Because we're deciding it's realand because we're engaging with
it as a piece of art and

Absolutely.
Yeah.

it.
And I think that was for me,among the more, the most
interesting pieces of readingthe book was it made me think
about how I was engaging withthe art and knowing your history
in

Mm.

I spent two hours after finishing the book down a
Wikipedia rabbit hole of, all ofthese real characters.
Um,

did you think that they were all real, or did you
understand straight away thatNicholas was of a different
status?

I think it was clear who were for sure real,

Yeah.

and I think I appreciated that.
Anyone else?
Could have been

Yeah.
Because almost everyone actuallyis real.
But I've had people say, oh, Igoogled Nicholas Wade.
I was looking for his Wikipediapage as if every character was
real.
But what I wanted to do isreally inject this one fictional
person into a real world andthen see what happened, what
story would happened if thisperson wandered through these

(33:42):
sets and looked at that person.
Oh my God, that person finds himattractive.
How interesting.
So it was a very fun game toplay.
It's not a game that you'reallowed to play with nonfiction,
so it was very exciting andsubversive, for me to do it.

And I think that was maybe why I didn't assume
that Nicholas was real, Franklydidn't assume that he was not
real, because he did seem like agateway for the

yeah, yeah, Yeah.
Yeah.

Something comes up in the book about someone
craving a costume and a roll andin line with what we've been
talking about.
It just makes me think so muchabout how desperate we are to be
told what to do.

Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that's what is sotouching about Nicholas as a
character is that sense that wehave when we're very young, but
I think.
We all have it inside ourselvesstill of how are you supposed to
be in the world?
What's, how does everyone elseknow how to be, how do they know
how to perform themselves andhow are they so good at

(34:43):
performing themselves?
And I think a big part of Nico'sattraction to Danilo is he's
this person of the absoluteself-confidence.
He has this real Stature.
Solidity of presence.
He's very elegant and puttogether and confident inside
his work and confident in termsof ruling over his domain.

(35:04):
And Nicholas is a person who'sincredibly porous and open and
can adapt himself to anysituation.
And those are wonderfulcharacteristics.
But what that means is that youconstantly have a sense of doubt
about who you actually are.
A chameleon.
I find chameleons just the mostinteresting people.

(35:25):
I'm always fascinated bywatching how people operate
socially and the people who canfit themselves to whatever
scenario they're in.
What's that like when you gohome alone and what do you fit
yourself to then when no one'sthere?

You say they fascinate you.
Can you share more about whythat is?

I think it just, it seems a dangerous way to
live, but also an exciting wayto live.
I'm not sure how convinced I amanyway in the solidity of
people's characters because Ithink we are so much more in
flux and so much more ous and somuch more responsive to each
other.
The sense that we are people whochange our being in turn in.

(36:05):
we're talking to, with whoeverwe're around, we different sides
of ourselves come out.
I think actually that's quitefrightening to realize.
So we like to think that we'rethese solid beings of the 19th
century novel who are the samein all environments, but of
course we're not.
And that really interests me.
The idea that different selvescome out in different scenarios,

(36:26):
and then the pleasure of as awriter, tracking that and
showing somebody behaving likethat.
I reject that 19th century novelassumption that a concrete
character moves throughcircumstance unchanging, because
I'm interested in the, VirginiaWolfer.
Somebody in flux that sense offluidity, and that's what I'm
trying to capture all the timein writing, so Yeah, absolutely.

And so I also then wonder a person who you
might see as a chameleon or Imight see as a chameleon, is it
really just a matter of they'rethe same, but their context is
changing,

Possibly and, but I think some people do have a
more sort of stable being thanother people.
I think people have that kindof, this is a very solid type of
person who has that amazingknack for being the same in all
situations.
And the same with all people,which I find quite admirable.
Rather than being a person whojust constantly bends
themselves, very mercurial towhatever situation they're in.

(37:19):
And to watch that play outsocially is very interesting.

Yeah, I feel like too much stresses me out so that
I, so I have to be bendingbecause otherwise.
You When you're navigating adifficult situation, you can't
always be who you are.
Um, I don't know why my first,the first thing that comes to
mind is me thinking about mymother-in-law, right?
I don't talk to my mother-in-lawor deal with my mother-in-law

(37:45):
the same way that I deal with, afriend

And of course that's true of all of us, isn't
it?
And I think it's increasinglytrue of us as our social world
becomes more and more complexand we are producing selves all
the time because of socialmedia.
So we have become more influxanyway.
But yeah, it rem, it remains asubjective interest.

and it's interesting that you just said
we are producing ourselvesbecause of social media, and I
think we, when we approachthinking about social media as
art, as a production, then Ithink it's easier to, uh, see
others also

yeah, of course.
Because we're getting to watchthat whole thing happen in real
time.
We see our friends producingthemselves according to
different angles and differentlights, and that is an
interesting process.
It's good for us to rememberthat we're making ourselves up
all the time.
It's making again, isn't it?
We are making

yeah.
yeah.
Absolutely.
What is how would you sum upyour brand?

Oh my God, my brand is against brand.
My brand probably is againstbrand.
That is my genuine brand.
Oh.

It's, I like asked that question and I was
like, if somebody asked me thatquestion, I would be like, I
don't know that this is done.
What are we talking about?

Yeah.
I have tried very hard to beeverything that is not
Brandable, but I think thatmight have become its own thing
in itself.

but also like it's a,

And also I'm trying to wreck the brand all
the time by being like it's notthat you wanted it to be that.
That's gone.
Yeah, I

Sure.

do we live in dread?

Earlier too, you were talking about
self-confidence and I think themore I engage with my fellow
human who is confident, I thinkgives, is a.
Can have a negative connotation'cause it can come across as

(39:40):
arrogant.
Um, but like someone who really,truly understands themselves and
feels secure in, in talkingabout the reality of their
lives, makes it a safer spacefor other people to also talk
about their lives.
Like I tend to have difficultand, some might call, not
inappropriate, that's not theright word, but I'll talk to my

(40:02):
siblings about things that somepeople might be uncomfortable
talking to their siblings about,and I'm just like I want to
normalize that we're human

Yeah.

right.
And it's not necessarilyself-confidence, it's faked
self-confidence so that we canall feel a little

Yeah.
Yeah.
And also the more you do thatkind of fake self-confidence,
the more it creates realself-confidence because the open
conversations happen and thenthe risk has been decept.
Yeah.

Yes, exactly.
And it's like having the sort oflike delusion in the first place
to, to fake the self-confidence.

Yeah.

It goes back to the artifice and so you use the
delusion to create the reality,

Yeah, absolutely.
I mean it's that fake it tillmake it, isn't it?

right?

I think when that's put towards good ends and
the good end of wanting honestconversation is, that's an ideal
end.
I think that there's somethingas well about really
relinquishing the idea ofbuilding a persona in favor of
work.
Actually, just focusing onmaking the work does give you

(41:09):
real confidence because after awhile there is.
There is a body of work and thatthere's nothing like that.
I think as somebody who isincredibly shy and really
struggled with self-confidence,I might still feel like that in
social situations, but theaccumulation of the stubborn
accumulation of sentences over.

(41:31):
More than a decade suddenlymakes this thing that's oh no,
that here is this stuff.
Okay, I have made this stuff.
It's real.
It's really real.
And I think that changed myrelationship to confidence more
than anything else, that it mademe feel more and more ease.
And that comes back to what youwere saying right at the
beginning about the sense thatall that kind of internal world

(41:51):
has in some way beenexternalized.
And it's there.
And if you struggle socially orto say to people what you're
really interested in.
Or if your interests are quitestrange, then being able to put
them into books and find peoplewho want to read them and share
them.
That's a really strange andmagical act that changed my
life, I think.

Oh wow.
And what was that piece that youthink changed it?

I don't think there was a, I don't think there
was a moment.
I think it was just the ongoingprocess.
Yeah.
I think it was probably, lonelyCity was my third book, but
probably Lonely City was the onethat did really change it,
because I wrote about somethingthat was so painful, but also so
taboo.
It was such a taboo lonelinessthat nobody spoke about it, and

(42:35):
then suddenly sending that outinto the world and being like,
oh, turns out an awful lot ofpeople are lonely.
Like really, a lot of people arelonely.
And having that sense of.
Communality, having that senseof community, and it's a very
queer book, so that sense of aqueer community as well, That
just, that really released someof the shame around being

(42:57):
strange or being different andmade me feel much more
confident.
So I think that's similar towhat you're saying about sharing
around difficult things.
It makes a sense of courage andease.

And we forget that shame is rampant amongst
all of us humans and anxiety isrampant amongst all of us humans
and all of us are making it upas we go along.
And so the more we rememberthat, then it gets a little
easier.
And I think faking it till youmake it sometimes all you need
to do is do that for yourselfand no one else needs to know.

(43:29):
And then it's okay.
Yeah.
This is so interesting.
I could talk about it all day.
Um.
Olivia Lang, thank you so much.
The Silver Book is out now andis shimmering.
Do you see

It is shimmering.
There's a little sheen runningalong it.

Congratulations on all the things.
You have a million thingshappening right now.
I'm so glad to have you here.

Oh, it's been a total pleasure.
I've loved it.
Thank you so much.

Oh, I'm so glad.
Your chaos is documented.

Michael Galyean (44:03):
it's like do that.
Amy Po podcast.
That first one with RachelDratch and her headphones.
The doorbell's gonna ring.
I don't have a doorbell andit'll still ring.
It'll be fine.

You don't have a doorbell.

No, I'm very rich.

That's what happens when you have your seven
minutes of Instagram fame,right?

No doorbells, just

wait.
No.
Really?
You don't have a doorbell?

No we got one of the ring lights.
We never put it up.
'cause lazy.
But also like it's a two bedroomhouse.
Like I could see you

Oh, someone will just knock on the

cur,

It's like good old fashioned.

hokey pokey, country folky.
Yes.

Oh yeah.
You're

Yeah.
So we just,

You don't even have your door locked.
People just walk right in.

windows are open.
We, Hey Mama Y's coming in.
Come on in.
Yeah.
Yep.

Perfect.

Great.
We're starting off strong.

Yeah.
This is what it's like on gay'sreading.
Michael Gallion, AKA dancingblue shirt guy.
Welcome to Gay's Reading.

thanks for having me.
What a joy.

What a joy i, this journey started because I
saw your viral video years late.
No, I think I saw it when itfirst happened.

Okay.

And then I was like refreshed.
It reminded, I was reminded ofit

Not that I repost it every three weeks, but

It wasn't from you.
'cause I didn't follow you.
I know.
And then I was like, who's thathandsome man?
Let me follow him.
And then I did.
And now here we are.

all it, that's my one thing about that whole
video is like it's millions,billions, international views,
whatever, not counting.
But I was not tagged in any ofit, so people are just like not
finding me and I'm like, youjust have to type in the four
words, dancing blue shirt guy.
That's why I made my Instagram.
So

uhhuh.

Because that's what everyone was saying what's
that dancing blue shirt guy?
It's literally dancing.
Blue shirt guy.
Please find me.
I'm very alone.

And then you posted about who do you know who
hosts a podcast?
'cause you are, you're itchingto just have fun and be on a
podcast.
And I was like, me come beyondmine.

love it.
See, you just gotta put it outthere.
Is that called manifesting?

yes.
Or Lady Festing.
Or they festing it.
We are.

basically just fishing for work is what I'm
doing.

Yes.

someone talk to me.
Yay.

That's okay.
I'm here for you.
Okay.
For the people who were like,who the hell is this guy?
I don't know what you're talkingabout.
Tell me.

Just

of all,

of everyone.
Yes.

I'm gonna put the video in the show notes, so
everyone go watch this video.
You've probably already seen itand don't even remember.

True.
Yeah.
Maybe, hopefully.
But yes.
There was a video of me that Idisguised myself as a blue
shirt.
Like the security guards atNeland Stadium at the University
of Tennessee wear kind of theblue shirts.
And they're spotted, dotted allthe way around the the football
field.
So the team reached out to meabout a week before and said, we

(47:13):
have an idea for a skit.
And there's plenty of thosewhere a police officer or
security guard or the mascotjust jump in and t torque it
out.
They were like, let's try toelevate it a little bit.
I know the coach because ofKnoxville, the dance scene is
quite small.
And she knew that I would a doit.
I would say yes to anything.
At the time, I was in a lot ofTV shows here in Knoxville like

(47:37):
Snapped and Homicide Hunters.
Oops, I killed my husband.
Like, all of those crimerecreation shows are all filmed
here.
So I was doing that like at,playing detective number two and
blurry police officer numberone.
And so she was like, you havethat.
And then also I came to theUniversity of Tennessee just to
be a cheerleader.
That's why I chose Tennessee outof the hat.

(48:00):
Never auditioned, never triedout, got cold feet chickened
out, backed away slowly, likeHomer Simpson into the bushes.
Yep.
So 21 years later, my dreamsfinally came true.
So whether you're, you saw it,anyone saw it, I don't care.
It happened.
So that chapter books, chapters,that chapter was closed.

(48:22):
Yeah.
Tying all in.
But so it happened and that'sall that mattered to me.
The fact that everyone saw it.
Live left.
Love that.

Yeah.
Wait, so you literally, youwent, you chose the school for
the cheerleading program?
Never

Nope.

I am like, gobsmacked.
So what did you do instead?
Where were you from?
Where did you come

I am from Delaware.
Yes.
Me, Joe Biden and

now I'm in Knoxville.

And literally I went Kentucky, Tennessee,
because they have greatcheerleading programs in the
late 19 hundreds when I was inhigh school.
Watching the ESPN NationalChampionships, VHS taping them
every time.
And so I chose them because ofthe school.
And if you wanna get emotional,I remember driving around the
river and that's where NeelandStadium, sorry.

(49:13):
It's been a long way.
And I remember driving aroundand saying, I'm gonna cheer and
that stadium one day and Ididn't for 21 years.
And then I did.
It all happened when it neededto happen.

I love that.
And I also love that you'restill there,

Yeah.
Love

clearly have.
Yeah.
You made a full life there.
I, this is so shocking to me.
Okay, Michael, as my guest gayreader, I have to know, what are
you reading?

Okay.
So this week I've been reading alot of Legally Blonde, the
musical,

Uhhuh.
Uhhuh.

a lot of food menus.

What?
Tell me more about the foodmenus.
What are we reading?

So first off, I choreograph musicals here in, in
Knoxville.
So Legally Blonde opens tonight,actually.
So after I leave this

some of the posts on Instagram.

it's so good.
So learning a lot about that.
And then I'm also a privatechef, so I have a private chef
gig tomorrow night.
So I've got my menu puttogether.
I've got my shopping list.
I'm like putting my recipes andmy ideas and.
Getting it all outta my brainand putting it on paper and
reading it over and over, andthen chat ching a few things and

(50:23):
YouTubing a few things, but.

what is your journey like to create a menu?

So I like to lean into things that are
familiar to people, but with alittle, and I like to be that in
the dance world.
I like to be that in my socialworld.
Like you think you know me andthen there's a twist, there's a
extra, there's a oomph.
Um, And I like, you know, doinga private dinner, someone's
hiring me to come into theirhouse and feed them.

(50:50):
I'm not trying to force my.
This is what I want to eattonight.
What do you like and what can Ilike introduce you to in a
interesting way?
But to me, the phone eats first.
We all know that it's gotta goon Instagram, so it's gotta be
pretty, there's a lot ofinstances where I.
Draw out the plate before I knowwhat the food is.

(51:12):
And so it's, yeah, visualartist, like I just wanna see
colors and pops and differenttextures and whatever.
But there's gotta be veggiefirst, then seafood and maybe
some meat.
But I love veggies, colors, funstuff like that.

Okay, so you say you have this gig tomorrow
night, you said your MO is youdo the meal with a, what's your
tomorrow?

Do you know what cheer wine is?
Yeah, it's hokey Pokey country.
Folky.
It's a soda.
It's a soda that's indigenous tothe south, in the Knoxville
region.
Imagine like Dr.
Pepper, sweeter.
But with a little bit morecherry twist.
So I'm doing a shrimp cocktailsauce with the cheer wine in it.

(51:59):
I'm doing a pumpkin soup withcurry crab.
So it's like things that, notnormally in the world.

Yeah.
Okay.

recently that I love cooked fruit and savory
things.
Like I did a Tuesday, I had agig, and I did roasted tomato
soup with peaches.
Seasonal, delightful, whatever.
So I'd like to add just right,please hire me.

I last night got the, and trader Joe's is not a
sponsor of mine, but I'm morethan happy to have them if they
would like to be they'reseasonal hash of like sweet
potatoes and gour all the gourdsand onions and whatever.
And I sauteed it for a long timeand then blended it and made a
soup outta that.

Done.
Genius.

So that's P-S-A-P-S-A to you and the

yep.
There's probably roasted likered onions in there.
There's spice, there's peppers.
That's so smart.
Sidebar, controversially up.
Brave.
I hate a Trader Joe's.
What's going on in there?
What is going on?
Why is it World War iii?
Why does everyone think that'stheir last meal?
Why is Julie elbowing me for themeatballs?

(53:12):
Like everyone just needs to takea breath in Trader Joe's.

And my local Trader Joe's just.
Underwent a major overhaul andnothing is where it was three
weeks ago,

chaos.

and everyone is having a very hard time

And we only have one in Knoxville, and I
think every white SUV is therewith their Stanley cups.
And it's just, it's a lot.
It's just a lot.
If I could be in there by myselfand enjoy the moment, listen,
their wine is great.
Their cheese, their flowerslove, but it's a lot.
When I saw an employee, theyclick their heels together after

(53:49):
they stock the shelves, and Isaid, this is not for me today.

Oh, geez.
Okay.

take a breath.

are you a Thanksgiving fan?

Love.
Yeah.

Okay.
They have a popcorn.
That is, it is stuffing flavoredpopcorn.
I know I am not a huge popcornperson and this is crack to me.

Okay.

So that is again, another PSA

So here's what I would do.
Take your soup that you made andput some of that popcorn on the
top, like a crouton Thanksgivingin a bottle.

Yeah.

I like that.

they sell a seasoning called everything but
the leftovers.
And it is that, it's thatseasoning.

Do you remember when Joan Soda did their
Thanksgiving sodas?
Apparently only the South hassodas.
Apparently.
We're just like, let's rot ourteeth

not a big soda person like my husband is.
There are lots of people that Iknow who are, but for some
reason

Yeah.
No trader Joe's is fine.
I'm sure it's great.
Like I said, it's good forparties.
It just always feels like thefood aisle at Ross

Whoa.
Talk about reading.
That is a B That is a bold

I doing, which kind of read we're doing here.
It's just.

is a bold read.

a person that needs like certain things and
certain ingredients to cook,they make very flavorful and
interesting things like youexplained, but sometimes I just
need a carrot.

You are not wrong.
It is definitely like snacks

Yeah.

first place, so it's Right.
Good for like parties and

Yes definitely gonna try the stuffing popcorn
I'm in

I know.
It's really

that sounds delightful.

Yeah.
You said, you were talking aboutthe chapters of your life,
chapters closing, chaptersopening.
If you were to title thischapter of your life right now,
what would it be?
You've got you're achoreographer, you're a private
chef, you're an internetsensation, you are a dancer.
What is this chapter of yourlife called?

Ooh, two things come to mind, and I, and that's
probably exactly what thechapter's about.
One of'em would probably becalled Throwing Darts.
Because that's what I've beendoing for the past, oh, three to
five years after.
So I worked in American EagleOutfitters for 24 years, the
same job in the mall.

(56:08):
Fun.
And then after that closed, Istarted throwing the darts and
just seeing what would land.
And then after blue shirt wasbirthed I started really
throwing the darts and going,okay, I also can do this.
So let's see what sticks, whatlands, that's, that chapter is
maybe over because I'm.
Following into three to fourthings.

(56:28):
Now I'm in the chapter of sayingyes, dot, but probably need to
say no a few more times.

Learning to say no,

Yeah, and learning because as anyone know,
that's maybe like a freelanceartist or trying to be something
more is more.
'cause you don't know when thenext phone call's coming, when
the next paycheck's coming, whenthe next 10 99 or opportunity is
coming.
So you just say yes, whetherit's a free charity mc event, or
it's the$800 go dance atMcDonald's for chicken nuggets.

(56:59):
But you just keep doing it andyou're like.
But where is it taking me?
But sometimes I don't mind.
I've also said that I feel likeI'm driving without the GPS on,
but I'll get there somehow.
But I'm just moving forward aslong as the wheels are spinning
or going somewhere, butsometimes I probably need to

(57:20):
know, put something in the GPSjust to like.
Mile mark where I'm going andmaking sure that the journey's
worth it.
And I'm not just wasting, I loveanalogies, so I'm just gonna
keep going with

No, I love it.
If you, at this moment in timetoday, we don't have to
overthink this, but this moment,if you were putting something in
the GPS, what would it be?

The five year goal is to be the Ryan Seacrest
of Knoxville.

Okay.

And that's the Ryan Seacrest i slash yeah like
a personality.
So I could host Wheel ofFortune, but also host the
Emmy's.
Maybe have a game show or a talkshow.
A talk show would be lovely

Uhhuh.

Drew Barrymore style, like some cooking, some
chatting, some deepconversations, some
ridiculousness.
So that's why I think everythingthat I'm still doing is working
towards that, but me personally,I'm not focusing on that.
I don't host my own podcastright now.
That would be a true interviewstyle, whatever.
So that's the five-year plan isto be Ryan Seacrest in that

(58:33):
capacity?
Not exactly him.
He's, half my size and, but I'dbe the plus size model.

Yeah, we love I said to my husband, I'm talking
to dancing blue shirt guy today,and he, for a second, had a
quizzical face on and I said,and he goes, oh, hot coach.
And I said, yep, that's the one.

take it.

So there you go.
He doesn't say that about RyanSea Crest.

Where was E for Halloween?
Three.
Two weeks ago.
I could have been hot coach.

Among your darts, you hit children's book

Yes.
Funny.
You should ask

Funny.
I should ask Dancing blue shirt.
Boy, tell us, tell me more aboutDancing Blue Shirt

He's a published author.
Thank you.
So this came about essentiallyit's somewhat of an
autobiography about a little boynamed Michael who basically.
Wants to dance but doesn't seeanybody or any other boys
dancing.
So he should not dance too.
And it's not, so I did not wanta Rudolph story.

(59:39):
I didn't want everyone makingfun of him that he danced.
I.
It's more of a, once, the danceteam sees him privately dancing.
The coach reaches out, youshould come dance with us,
perform.
We see you, you look great.
And then when he does, the wholeworld goes, finally, we've been
waiting for you.
So it's a little bit more offinding that inner hero.

(01:00:00):
Just express yourself.
The world's gonna love you.
That kind of story.
And then it does teach.
Yeah, and then it does teach alittle dance at the end too.
The little blue shirt dance.
So there's, yeah, wiggle yourpants, shake your dance, like
that kind of thing.
I'll teach it.
That's on the Patreon.
And subscribe.
Yeah.
A lot.

(01:00:21):
I like to be the dancer or thedance teacher that helps the
person that's never danced,bridging that gap.
'cause dance is a universallanguage.
We all don't have to be fluent,but we can speak some part of
it.
So that's why I love working.
Now.
I choreographed the high schoolmusicals and you can have
everyone that was the girlthat's been in the dance studio
for 10 years, or bro, that's onthe soccer team that wanted to

(01:00:43):
try it, and we can get themperforming at the same level

Jason Blitman (01:00:47):
totally.
It's almost better.
To be choreographed by someonewho's not a Capital D dancer.
Because you when I was in highschool, I did some choreography
too.
I like, I'm not a trained dancerin quota marks, but I have taken
some dance classes.
So there's like somefamiliarity, but when it comes
to, oh, let's just do thingsthat feel comfortable in our

(01:01:08):
bodies and what makes sense,it's oh, your weight is on this
foot, so then it makes sense touse the other foot.

Michael Galyean (01:01:15):
How many times a week do I say that?
Yeah, I think that's the.
And people that play sports areso good with dance because, or
they, maybe they work in the gymor whatever it is.
Just knowing how, what it takesto move your body.
And when we say lift your arm,it's really your whole shoulder
and take your waist up with itand blah, blah, blah.

(01:01:35):
But I do like to translate itfor the athletes and we're just
gonna squat, chest press clapand down.
And they're like.
Oh my God.
And the other girls, I'm liketwerk, But we all get to the
same destination and a lot ofdirectors have, yeah.
A lot of directors have pointedout that they love that I can
speak languages to six differentpeople and give them individual

(01:01:57):
like ways to get to there.
So it's refreshing.

I'm curious if you were to give a piece of
advice to the listeners aboutfeeling comfortable in your
body, just for the sake ofmoving it, do you have advice?
Is that because talking abouttalking to football players, I
imagine.
Sure they can quote, unquote,get the steps.

(01:02:22):
But in terms of the comfortlevel of moving the arm,
starting from the shoulder likethere is this sort of, that you
need to be comfortable in yourbody in order to get the moves
and make it happen.
And I think so many of us ingeneral, are less comfortable in
our body than I think we wouldlike to be.
So how do you, how do we breakdown?

(01:02:42):
How do we break that barrier?

There's a couple things that came to mind.
I think we only put mirrors inour bathrooms, so then we're
deathly afraid of mirrors, likewhen you open my shower and I'm
standing there like a drenchedrat, there's a mirror and that's
the last thing I wanna see.
So if we can put mirrors indifferent places so we can
actually enjoy ourselves, thatwould be a of all look at

(01:03:04):
yourself watch yourself move.
I like at.
High school.
Now when we're dancing in atheater, we don't have mirrors,
so that is a disservice.
'cause these students can't seethemselves.
Are you actually matching me?
So I think it's just bodyawareness.
So don't be afraid of themirror.
Don't be butt naked in it.
Maybe that's not what you need.

(01:03:25):
Be fully clothed.
Maybe you do.

shame.
Yeah.

years ago you couldn't stop me from the
mirror.
Right now me.

There, Michael.
There are plenty of

Oh, that

Who are listening right now being like, I want to
see I,

Listen, two more years of trying and there's
probably gonna be an OnlyFans.
No, there's not.
No, I no erase that from yourideas.
People.
That is not a dart.
We are throwing

yes.

The rent is due every month

Listen.
Exactly.
All right.
Was there some, did you haveanother piece of advice?
There was something else yousaid that came to

Second of all, just do it.
And just record people are soshocked that, we do this right,
don't you?
Do you get people that say allthe time I can't believe you.
Just go online and talk andaren't you self-conscious of
your voice?
And it's,

Yeah.

I just keep doing it.
And not everything you film hasto go on social media.
Just film it for yourself, andwatch yourself.
And so if you are learningdance, it just, I also was a
wedding DJ last year.
It sucks to me that, yeah, I had32, 10 90 nines in my taxes.
It sucks to me that most peopleonly dance at weddings, which

(01:04:35):
are like, what, once every fiveyears.
So you can listen to Love Shqevery time you can do the conga
in your house.
So just get comfortable andlisten to music and like truly
listen to music.
Rhythm is half of dance.
So yeah, you can get this down,but if you can't, somehow people

(01:04:55):
just can't hear the song.
Just listen to beats, listen,truly listen to music.

Yeah.
It's a great way of talkingabout just communicating, right?
It's if you don't feel like youhave rhythm, if you don't feel
like it's in you, it's just amatter of listening and
responding to what you'rehearing.

A hundred percent.

Which is all I'm doing here.

It's like a conversation.
Weird.
So is dance.
So is dance.

I know.
What a beautiful

What if we did like a whole, we could do a
whole thing.
Follow me.

Yes, of course.
We got this.
Oh my God.
Everyone go watch this onYouTube because we just had a
little magical moment.

I felt it.

Me too.
Okay, so you're clearly, you'renot like a big novel reader, but
were there ever books as a kidthat you recall reading that
meant something to you?

I think the ones that come to mind, I love
the outsiders as a kid.

Oh,

Okay.
Pony Boy love them.
But my favorite style of bookswere the Choose Your Own
Adventures.
Is that cheesy?
Is that weird?
Is that stupid?

There is.
An adult choose your ownadventure that came out last
year.
That's like in the style ofreality tv and it's super fun.
And if you're like curious todip into that as an adult
person, I'll send you that book.

so you're saying I should audition?
Is that what I heard?

Oh wait, sure.
Of course.
You're gonna just, you should beon reality tv.
You'd be a great Big brothercontestant.

tuned.
You might see me on your TVs inJanuary.

What?

You heard it here first.
Folks

Oh my God.

can't tell you much, but I just got back a few
weeks ago from that's all.
Can't get sued.

Okay,

much, but it's something.
I was on tv.
That's all that matters.
Check,

I know which wanna see you in all the places.

check your local listings, check Fox and
Hulu.

Michael Gallian, thank you so much for being
here.

already?
No.

is it.
We're done.

rerecord with another personality of mine?

Oh, of course.
I want all 37 of them.
One for each of your 10 90 ninesfrom

yeah.
And then get the, like the, Heybro you ready to talk books

That's how you replied to my first dm.

Yeah, I forgot about that story.
You broke me.
Yeah, bro.

You did, bro.
Me, and I was like, oh, okay.
Great.
Here we are.

I love bru, stupid.
Anyway, thanks for having me.
You're a delight.

Thank you for being here.
You're a delight.
Thanks everyone so much forbeing here.
Make sure to check out theSilver Book by Olivia Lang and
the Dancing Blue Shirt Boy byMichael Gallion wherever you get
your books.
And I will see you next week.
Have a great rest of your day.
Bye.

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