Ruben Reyes Jr. (Archive of Unknown Universes) feat. Chloe Michelle Howarth, Guest Gay Reader

Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Gaze reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what andwhy.
Anyone can listen Comes we arespoiler free.
Reading from stars to book clubpicks we're the curious minds
can get their picks.
Say you're not gay.

(00:24):
Well that's okay there somethingeveryone.
Hello, and welcome to Gay'sReading.
I'm your host, Jason Blitman.
On today's episode, I am joinedby Reuben Reyes, Jr.
Author of Archive of UnknownUniverses.

(00:45):
I got to sit down with Reuben inperson earlier this year to talk
about his story collection.
There is a Rio Grande in Heaven,and you could find that full
conversation over on the Gazereading Substack.
The guest gay reader today isthe wonderful Chloe Michelle
Hower, author of Sunburn, whichis also out now.
Both of their bios are in theshow notes.

(01:06):
And both of these books offerexactly what many of us are
searching for right now.
An escape, a mirror, a place toprocess, or just a place to
rest.
Uh, these weeks y'all, they justkeep on coming.
Um.
I don't know.
In times like this, I findmyself turning to books and it's

(01:28):
been hard to focus, but it hasalso been a bit of a refuge, and
I have been doing my darnedestto find that balance between
those things.
And I hope that is true for youto, uh, you know, it's sort of a
way to make sense of the chaos,a chance to feel seen, a way to
connect with our fellow booklovers.
So I hope you're taking care ofyourselves and.

(01:52):
You know, I don't know.
What are you doing to take careof yourself?
Uh, put comment on a gazereading post and let us know,
because I think everyone coulduse some advice of how we're
coping right now.
Anyway, I hope you had a good4th of July weekend.
I posted some thoughts about.
What independence means to meover on the Gays reading

(02:12):
Substack, if you wanna checkthat out, that post is free over
there.
And you know, I've said itbefore, but reading Queer
Stories is one of the mostpowerful acts of resistance and
restoration that we have.
And you know.
To support queer authors is evenbetter.
And so just a another littlereminder, another nudge that the

(02:36):
Book Club partnership with altoastarts this month and every
month we'll be spotlighting anLGBTQIA plus author.
And they earn a significantlyhigher percentage of profits
than through other platforms.
So I'm so, so, so excited, uh,to be partnering with Stora on
that.
This month's pick, of course, isdisappoint me by Nicola Dine,

(02:58):
and in case you are unfamiliar,when you sign up, you also get
access to a membership to altoa,which means wholesale book
prices about 30% off all oftheir website.
You get to join the group chatsonline, and also Altor donates a
children's book to an lgbtqiaplus youth.
So all really great andimportant things.

(03:20):
You could find all of thatinformation in the show notes.
And the link to sign up is onthe Instagram link tree.
We're at Gaze reading onInstagram, and if you like what
you hear, please follow thepodcast, leave a review, share
it with a friend.
It really helps more than youknow.
All of that said, please enjoymy conversations with Reuben

(03:41):
Reyes, Jr.
And Chloe, Michelle, Howarth,

Jason Blitman (03:46):
My allergies are going insane today.
I feel the pressure in my eyes.
I feel it in my throat.

Ruben Reyes Jr. (03:52):
I'm with you.

happening?

I'm right with you, so we'll, we'll cough
through this.

I know.
We're like on a journey thismorning.
well Officially welcome to hisreading.
There's a substack liverecording of us, but this is,
this is the real deal.

Yeah.
I'm so excited to be here and tobe chatting with you again.
We had such a good time in PalmSprings.
I feel like

we

a great conversation.

It was um, I know.
It was so fun.
And, uh, And you did your firstlive in person.
Read reading.
Read reading, reading.
Yeah.
From

Yeah.

this book.

Yep, Yep.
Exactly.
Yeah, I

a journey.

yeah.
It's like time moves so quicklyand so slowly all at once.
Um,

Like part of what this book is about.

yeah, exactly.
Yeah.

Reuben, what is your elevator pitch for archive
of unknown universes?

Uh, So this is my debut novel and it basically
follows two families overalternate timelines of the
Salvador and Civil War, whichfor listeners was a 12 year
conflict um, that was US funded.
And so the book is a lot aboutthe impacts of that.
Um, And it really hinges on thelife or death of a gorilla
soldier who was involved in therevolutionary movement.

(05:10):
Um, In one timeline, he lives inone timeline, he dies.
It's also a love story, abreakup story, speculative
fiction, historical fiction.
Um, I think you read this andsee how messy my brain is.

Yes I, I was like taking notes for myself along
the way.
In the back of the book, I waslike, okay, this person is
connected to this person andthis person loves this person,
and this person is married tothat person.
And which universe am I in?

Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a lot.
I think that's also why it islike my first novel, like when I
was thinking about this book, Ithink I've shifted a little bit,
but when I was writing this, Iwas in grad school and I was
like all like big brained aboutit, right?
I was like.
Like most stories can be a shortstory.
'Cause I read a lot of longnovels that I was like, you
could have cut 200 pages fromthis or whatever.

(06:00):
And so I was like, I'm not gonnado that.
I'm not gonna write like a novelfor the sake of writing a novel
if the story doesn't require it.
And then I had this idea and Iwas like, okay, wait.
There's a lot going on here.
There's no way I can do this ina short story.
I think I'm gonna try writing anovel, and that's like the
conversation I had with myselfbefore starting.

And to be honest, and to the listener, it is not a
600 page book.
Like it's still, it is still atight novel, but it's, but it
packs a punch.
It makes me think about, mybackground is in theater and so
thinking about the differencebetween a 10 minute play that
like a student might do versus aone act play with no

(06:40):
intermission versus a two act a,a two and a half hour play
versus a three and a half hourplay.
Right?
And this, I think, is thatsolid, like 90 minutes, no
intermission tells the fullstory, but it doesn't overstay.
Its welcome.

Yeah.
Those are the like books andmedia, like this is my thing
with movies.
Let's go back to the 90 minutemovie.
Like, I think Jurassic Park isprobably like 93 minutes or
something.
It is the perfect length andlike we've we've lost sight of
it a little bit.
And with novels I think, I don'tget me wrong.

(07:16):
Like I love a, if it's good, Ilove an 800 page novel.

100%.

But it's like a hard sell, I think for many
ways.
And I honestly have read manythat needed to be shorter.
And so I think I wanted to belike, this needs to be punchy
and the right length and,develop the characters and do,
and the relationships and do allthat.
But yeah I wanted, I was reallycognizant of making sure it was
as punchy and like I wantedevery scene and every sentence

(07:43):
to be essential

You have to really think about what you're
writing under thosecircumstances.
Yeah and something like.
A 90 minute movie or any anymovie for that matter.
If a musical happens to belonger, or a play happens to be
longer than 90 ish minutes,there will be an intermission,
right?
So you do have a pause or abreak, but with a movie, it's

(08:05):
like you need to earn thosethree hours so that person will
sit there and hold their pee andbe thirsty, like being
uncomfortable.

Yeah.
I went to watch Killers of theFlower Moon when it came out,
and I loved that movie actually.
I thought it was actually likejustified the whatever, three
hours, whatever length it was.
But I was wearing some shoesthat were a little too tight.
I.
And an hour and a half in, I waslike, I gotta pop these.
This is gross, but I gotta popthese boots off right now.

(08:38):
I gotta let, I gotta let myshoe, my feet breathe.

That's so funny.
So you're writing a book wherepeople will keep their shoes on.

Yes.
Yes, definitely.

I like don't know how to, it's a weird topic to
talk about just because of thenature of all of this, but El
Salvador is in the news a lotright now,

It sure is.
Yeah.

And I like, don't, there isn't a question.
I think it's more like, how doesthat feel for that to be.
As prescient as it is, asimportant of an element of your
book, and it's it's weird.

It is super weird.
It feels super weird.
I grew up in SoCal, right?
Which is a huge, there's a hugeSalvador population in SoCal,
like all of my dad's familiesout there now.
And there are like historicaland political reasons for all
that, right?
The kind of migration to, toSoCal.
But it's also like a veryMexican city like.

(09:39):
Mexicans are the largestpopulation.
And I think growing up, Ithought to explain to some
classmates like, what, likewhere El Salvador was, what El
Salvador was.
'cause they would assume that Iwas Mexican, which is actually
an experience that a lot of ElSalvadorians have written about
and talked about.
And I think part of it's'causepeople just didn't know, right?
It's a pretty small country,like its history isn't taught

(09:59):
here in any, there are somepeople doing it, but no systemic
way.
And I think like in.
When we think of Latinos in theus, like Mexicans tend to be the
dominant the story that peopleknow about for understandable
reasons.
And so now the fact that like ElSalvador is front and center and
people are like, oh wait, theylike, they know the name of the

(10:20):
president, right?
When have they known the name ofthe Salvador and president?
Never even those that are likepolitically engaged people
didn't.
And so it's really weird andit's, i'm grappling with that
personally.
But I think the benefit right,is that this novel is an attempt
to talk a little bit aboutSalvador in history and the way
it's tied to our contemporarymoment, right?

(10:40):
And to the lives of Americanswhose parents were born in El
Salvador.
The book is so much about theaftermath of a civil conflict of
war and of US interventionabroad.
And like the breaking news isalso about that, right?
And I don't know.
I hope that like for somereaders, like this is a good
entry.
It's obviously a novel, right?
So there's only so much history,like it's more of a setting and

(11:01):
context.
But I think people will learnsomething about El Salvador.
I think that will help themhopefully understand the current
moment a little better.

sure, just in general for it to be one
background in a book, right?
Like one setting in a book, in anovel right now, like that is
not, you're not seeing thatregularly.
So for it to be right now feelsvery.
anyway, I just, obviously thatwas top of mind.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm thinking a lot about it too.
I don't know that kind of thingI think too, where you write
about the specific which leadsto the universal.
So I was writing specificallyabout El Salvador and the kind
of repression that peopleexperienced there in the late
seventies, early eighties.
But there are like resonancesnow because, it's not El
Salvador that's gone throughthings like this.
And yeah, I don't know.
It's that thing, that weirdthing about fiction where the

(11:46):
more specific you get, the moreweirdly universal it is or the
more people can see themselvesin it.
It's like such a weird paradox,but I think that's part of
what's going on here too.

Yeah, no, it's totally weird.
And just thinking about.
There's a quote in the book thatsays, behind every cliche is a
glimmer of truth.
And that's not exactly what youjust said, but there is that
element of to be so specific,it's so universal because
cliches are cliches for areason.

Yeah, totally.
Totally.
Yeah.

It's so funny because I don't mean this
question.
Offensively because, and I'llhave an answer myself, but like,
how do you find that to be truefor you?
How are you a cliche?

Oh my God, I'm like so many in so many ways.
I think about one reallyspecific thing, and this is
about this book but also aboutmy first book.
I think my story collections alot about this.
I think a lot about the Americandream as a cliche, right?
Or like an existing narrativethat kind of flattens some
things and.
I am like, so the Americandream, like I should be so

(12:51):
pro-American Dream.
It's crazy because both of myparents, immigrated to the US at
different times, right?
Neither of them got collegedegrees here in the States.
They were still able to make alife for themselves, buy a home.
And so cow like raised me and mysiblings get us to a good public
school, and then I, went toHarvard and then the Iowa

(13:12):
Writers Workshop and then.
I work in like corporatepublishing in New York, like it
is so far from where my parentscame and in many ways it's
that's the American dream,right?
And yeah, but what is like notThere or what?
If you only see that kind ofversion of my life or only those
details within my life, youdon't see the things that made

(13:33):
that possible.
My parents' citizenship, mydad's very good like job at the
L-A-U-S-D school district.
And all these factors that a lotof immigrants don't have.
And so I don't know if thattotally answers your question,
but I

it, it does well and what's so interesting, and I
don't even know if you realizeyou said this, but I asked the
question and you said there'sone really specific thing and
that is a springboard ofliterally what you said a few
minutes ago of the more specificyou get, the more universal it
gets.
So you have that specific thing.
And it's interesting, for me.

(14:10):
I guess not so much anymore, butat a time, I just loved musical
theater and that is, it couldn'tbe more cliche or I couldn't be
more more of a cliche gay mansaying that, and it's they're
cliches are real for a reason.

yeah.
There's something about Yeahtotally.
It's like that glimmer of truth.
And I think the important thingis that you see beyond it,
right?
Like that, it's I think thedanger is where that cliche
becomes the only story.
That's when you're in trouble,right?
Because it just flattened thingsand.
Let's bad actors get away withstuff.
Which is also what this novel isabout.

speaking of musical theater, they're one of
the most obscure references inthe book.
Shocked me,

Uhhuh.

mean girls.
The musical really, of all thethings.

yeah.
That it, that's so funny.
I I'm trying to remember.
There was another, it wasanother reference initially.
And what I wanted was these twocharacters to bond over, like
knowing what's going onBroadway.
Um, And I wanna say that Iwanted to reference the Color
Purple Revival.
I.
Which was around this time, butthe timing was off.

(15:20):
Like I think the color purplehad come back to Broadway the
year before.
And so time-wise, I was like,oh, that's not total.
I could have done it, but I waslike, it's not totally right.
And so I think I looked upprobably the list of shows that
came on in the time period thatthe novel's happening and I was

Uhhuh,

mean girls, it is.
Yeah, but there's a lot of popculture references in

are a lot of pop culture references.
Wait, no, you're not gettingaway from me Girls and musical
yet.

Okay.
Okay.
Okay.

so you had to, you looked it up.
Are you not a musical theaterperson?

I am a mus.
I am a musical theater person,but I dip in and out.
So like I haven't gone to a, oneof the things I love about New
York is being able to like, getlottery tickets to go to shows
on a whim.
It's amazing.
But I haven't in the last year,gone to that many shows.
I've, nope, I'm busy.
And it's like even with a likelottery ticket, it's 50 bucks at
least.
And

back in my day they were 20 and$25 and$30.
Like it was

yeah, I know.
What a dream.
But yeah and so I, I don't knowthat in 2018 I was really
keeping tabs on, I think if Iheard about Mean Girls the
musical I was hearing about, thestunt casting of Cameron Dallas
or whatever because people wereupset about it.
But yeah, this, I don't know,there's lots of, I did a lot of
really serious historicalresearch, but I also had to do
some more contemporary popculture research too when

(16:37):
writing this.

Yes.
Everyone is obsessed with ReneeRap now, and I saw her in Mean
Girls the musical that was.

That's the say what you want about the musical.
Like that is one of the greatcontributions to society.
I'm obsessed with her andthat's, that was huge for her
that helped make her

Yes.
Big fan of hers.
She's awesome.
And a member of the lgbtq pluscommunity, we need to, I need to
get her on the show.

she's everywhere right now.
She must have an album comingout or something.
I've, she's nonstop all over myfeeds.
But obsessed.

Speaking of pop culture or pop girlies, Where
did your love of Alanis Mossackcome from?

Oh my God.
It was I'd say late in life Ifeel like I, and I have,
honestly, I have this relation,I think it's maybe I.
Being the children ofimmigrants.
There's something about that.
Not entirely the explanation,but it's part of it.
Where I've had to learn aboutsome iconic American or North
American artists like later,like as an adult, because my

(17:38):
parents had introduce me tothem.
So like Alana Morisset, likeobviously I knew.
Ironic and some of the othersongs, obviously you hear those.
But I didn't sit down and listento that full jagged little pill
album till, I don't know,probably.
I dunno, at some point inadulthood.
And I was like, oh my God, thisis good.

(17:59):
This is amazing.
And so that's, yeah, that'swhere that started.
I also, I don't think I wroteabout her in this book, but I've
been thinking a lot about thelast two years I've really got
into Joni Mitchell who's justamazing.
And I'm like, how messed up isit that I had to go so many
years not knowing how amazingshe was.

Okay.
That was me and BarbaraStreisand.

Yeah.

I was like, not she, obviously I knew who she
was and she was on my radar andI knew some of her music.
But when I was in college I waslike offered a free ticket to
see her in concert and I waslike, why not?
I guess so.
I'll go and Ruben, my life haschanged.

I bet.

Yeah.

Yeah.
That's so funny.
Yeah, I don't know.
I think it's, maybe this is whyI like writing about pop culture
so much.
Like even if it's justreferences it means us so much
about us, right?
Like it says so much about wherewe come from.
It says so much about whoinfluences us, especially when
we're younger.
Yeah, I don't know.
I'm really interested in.
As something to take, not tooseriously, but like seriously.

(19:04):
Seriously enough to write aboutit a little bit in my very
serious novel about the Salvadorand Civil War.
Yeah.

Do you want to share a little bit about how and
why she's in the book?

Alanis Morissette.
Yes.
So another kind of central partof the book is this device
called the defactor, whichallows people to view alternate
versions of their life.
Basically like small movies,short films of lives they could
have lived as certain things hadgone differently.
But there's like a AI ishchatbot that guides you through

(19:35):
that process.
And.

Just putting it lightly.

Yeah, AI ish chatbot, that, that guides you
through it.
And you're assigned like a voicethat chatbot takes on.
And for one of the characters,it is at the beginning of the
book, especially LanisMorissette.
And I think Avil Levine is onelater on, and it's super silly
and absurd on purpose.
But yeah,

Who would yours be?

oh my gosh, I don't know, talk about cliches.
I love Lady Gaga so muchobsessed.
So maybe Gaga would help me

You'd want her to guide you through your alternate
universes.

definitely.
She can do, no, she can't doanything wrong and I love her.
I love her so much.

I love her too.
Musical theater, girly at heart.

Yeah, exactly.
There's that, this quote she hadyears ago that was like when I
started.
It's so funny.
Of course, it's like selfmythologizing whatever.
But I was like, this, you're soreal for that.
When she was like like when Iwas starting off in this
industry, people said you're toopop for musical theater and two
theater for pop, and look what Idid.
And I'm like, yeah, you're soright.

Yeah, there's something to be said about I
don't, I wouldn't say shecreated a genre'cause there, of
course, were people like Madonna

Yeah,

her but to find your, find that core of who you
are and just live your truth,

totally.
Also I don't know, there'ssomething to be said about
people that put effort, and Ihope this doesn't sound shady to
some of the other pop girlies,but like people who put effort
into a performance, it's likeworthwhile and creative and
interesting.

The, I, there's definitely, there's room for all
of the facets.
I think for the whole spectrum.
I think you have the popprincesses who just know how to
put on a show.

Yeah.

You have a Barbara Streisand like basically
sat on a stool and sang, and Iwould've sat there for six
hours.

yeah,

And then there's the in-between, which of course
is the Lady Gagas of the world.
And you're like, wow.
You can, you have the it factorand you can put on a show.

Yeah, totally.

So we need it all.

We need it all.

Meanwhile, Britney Spears, she's she just
knows how to put on a show,

Yeah.

which is, that's fine.
I would watch, I'd watch thattoo.

she's been through so much that I'll let
her get away with whatever.

So what do you think about seeing these
alternate or unknown universes?
Would you want to

I think so, and I don't wanna give away'cause
the characters really reflect onthis question on is it helpful
or not?
And that's kind of part of thebook, so I don't wanna maybe
give too much away.
But I think personally thereason I wrote about it's'cause
I find the question of what ifsuper, super compelling And I
always have, and I think it hasto do with a couple things.
I think that it's a questionthat immigrants ask themselves a

(22:24):
lot.
I think.
Especially when things get hard,in your new home.
I think there's sometimes thethought of there was a reason I
left right.
Either, maybe there wasn'tenough money, there wasn't
enough opportunity.
I was being persecuted by agovernment or someone in my
community.
There's lots of people's reasonswhy people leave their homes.
And I think when you come to thestates and then you face a

(22:45):
different set of hardships.
And it's not what has maybe beenpromised or told to you that it
will be?
I think you might ask yourselflike, was it worth it?
Was it worth it to me?
Leave my home?
What if I'd stayed?
And so I think that question isreally interesting on that
level, which is why I'm reallyinterested.
I think again, maybe this israndom movie reference.
I loved past lives, like I lovedpast lives.

(23:09):
And I think it's because ithonors the way that immigrants
approach this question.
So that's part of it.
And then the other part of it isthat I left like home, like I
left California for Boston andthen Iowa and now the East
Coast.
And so I've always thought whatif I just stayed in California,
a place I love closer to family?
And I think we all have versionsof that question for ourselves,

Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's interesting too becauseyou, in the book you're seeing.
Specifically alternateuniverses.
You are not seeing the futureAnd there's, for all intents and
purposes, there's nothing youcould do about it,

Yeah.
Yeah.

right?
So that's I think, where Istruggle with that question,
right?
Excuse me, like we won't giveaway anything from the book, but
for me, I couldn't help butthink, I don't know if I would
want.
To see anything because I it'seasier to have regrets or it's
easier to think, oh, what if Icould have done, if I did that,

(24:13):
this is where I would've been.
Or if the opposite is true too,you can go, oh, thank God I
didn't make that choice,

yeah, that sounds like a very healthy
approach to it.
I think the curiosity is

Oh, no, I'm curious as hell.
And if it was, if that was areality, then I'm sure it'd be
different.

yeah.
Yeah.
No, I think I think it's justsomething human about that
question.
I think, like almost everyoneI've met in my life ask
themselves a version of thatquestion.

And you saying past lives is so interesting too
because if I had the opportunityto see or experience my past
lives that I might be able to,in turn, have a better
understanding of who I am today.

yeah.

'Cause it's like the collection leading up to
now.

There's like context before you burst onto
the scene.

Totally.
Versus, the alternate universething like really was breaking
my brain.
'cause I was like, this ishappening right now in a
parallel universe that you Tapinto.

yeah.

And that gave me anxiety.

Yeah.
It's all.
I don't know.
It's like this novel is likeabout the characters and the
relationships and the lovestories.
But it's also like a big thoughtexperiment.
I don't know, I like novels thatapproach big questions and big
ideas and that's totally why I'mdrawn to sci-fi.
'cause sci-fi does that often.
And also this particularquestion of alternate universes

(25:39):
or, yeah.

Did you?
was like a thing going aroundInstagram.
I literally think yesterday.
That was talking about ouruniverse and how there wasn't a
big bang, but it was likesomething else and it was like
we're living inside of a bounceor we're living inside of a
black hole.

Oh God, that's stressing me out.
Talk about anxiety.

I know.
So this came out literallyyesterday and I was like, how
weird that I'm talking about theuniverse tomorrow.
Yeah, I don't know where thatis, but.

Yeah.

People, could everyone go Google it?
'cause it's interesting

And also if people are like, curious about
it, it's like very much a likesci-fi kind of staple.
Like I think there's I thinkabout there, there are lots of
people who've done it better,but I, I.
I like Michael Kreon a lot.
I've already mentioned JurassicPark.
And he has this novel, it's nothis best, but it's fascinating
called Timeline that is a littlebit about this basically on how,

(26:40):
like the relationship betweenlike multiverse theory and like
time travel basically.
And so it's I don't know it,it's not like I am particularly
scientific or interested in thisquestion.
I just really like sci-fi andit's a question that sci-fi
writers have returned to overtime.

totally.
And it's also it's right, thebook is called.
Archive of unknown universes.
So it, while it is a big part ofthe book, the book is really
about family and relationshipsand, connection and what we know
about ourselves.
And speaking of relationships,there's a quote, existence was a

(27:19):
task best done in a pair issomething someone believed.
Do you believe that?

I think so.
I have believed it at a point toI'm in, I'm telling myself that
I'm in a very healthy placeright now with my.
With my singledom.

We love Singledom.

yeah, I think I'm in a good place with it
right now, but I think therehave been points in my life
where I was like, oh my God,it's so hard to be a person.
Like this would be so muchbetter if I had someone by my
side who totally got me andsupported me.
And I think like the bestrelationships are that right.
It's like this feeling thatyou're going through life as a
unit.
And so yeah, I think there'ssome truth to it.

(27:58):
I don't know that it's like.
I'm like, that's the only way todo it.
But I, there have been, I thinkthere have been times in my life
where I felt like that was theonly truth or the best way of
doing life.

I am obsessed with this because.
My heart and soul in my, maybein my next life slash my next
career move.
I wanna be a matchmaker.

Okay.

What are we looking for?
Who's your

for me,

to put you on the spot.
Yes.
All of a sudden, I wanna be yourmatchmaker Reuben.

Okay.
But I also love I'm such aromantic that I'm like, but I
don't want a matchmaker.
I wanna be at the localbookstore and they walk in and
they ask me what I'm reading.

Listen, I can manufacture it.
You don't need to know.
I'll be your little fairygodmother,

Yes.
I don't know.
I just, I want someone who'sfunny.
I very much appreciate humor.
They have to be, unfortunately,as smarter as me or smarter.
I love when someone's smarterthan me, or at least I think
they're smarter than me.

To Harvard.
That's gonna be hard.

I know it's fine.

So smart.

I have aspirations.
I don't know.
But yeah, I think there'ssomething, I guess this is like
more woo and abstract, but Ithink I like the idea that like,
like a really, and I probablywrite something I was
reflecting, in my first book, Ireally didn't write about
romantic relationships verymuch.
And so I wanted to do that'causeI love reading about love and
romance.
And I think somewhere in thebook I write about how I do

(29:26):
think a relationship is justchoosing someone over and over.
I would like to find the personwhere that's like an easy or as
easy a possible thing to do.

Yeah.
Yes.
Listen, as a person who's beenin a relationship for over 10
years, it is not that is notalways easy, but it is
definitely easy to want to makeit easy, if that

yeah.

This is something that comes up in the very first
letter of the book and is aquestion I've asked you before,
and I'm asking you again to seehow things have, might be
changed or shifted.

Yes.

believe people are made for each other?

No.
I don't actually, I don't it'stoo close to the idea of
soulmates for me, which I thinkis really, and I don't know,
maybe it's just scary to I, theidea of a soulmate.
But I think that there are,here's, this is my grand theory
on this is that there arewhatever, 8 billion people in
the world, right?
I don't believe that there's oneperson for you.

(30:28):
But I think that there areprobably a handful of people who
are equally good matches.
And I think that, like you, Idon't know what the number is,
but the probability is that it'snot one.
And yeah,

So not to burst, not to put a hole in your
argument, but I wonder if you'reactually saying you do agree
with that because saying thatpeople are made for each other
doesn't mean that they're theonly person made for each other.
But you're saying that there areperhaps a handful of people that
are your like correct mate.

(31:00):
So does that mean that peopleare made for each other?

Yeah, that's true.
I think, I guess the reason I'mlike allergic to you of
someone's made for you, I thinkit like lets, it lets people off
the hook a little bit, right?
It like makes love seem likethis predestined and like this
book is so much about fate anddestiny, right?
And I think when it comes tolove that idea I think makes it
feel like, okay, i'll have tofind that person.
And once I find them, everythingwill be perfect.

(31:24):
When I think we both know thatlike relationships are actually
about a lot of work and likemaking like incompatibilities
work, right?
Or like finding the person whowants to work towards the same
things as you.
It's like very, it's much moreproactive than the idea of
soulmates, I think make butmaybe I'm being really narrow
about the

Again, like I, I wonder if you don't, if you're
not with someone who's alsowilling to put the work in.

Yeah.

Then they're not quote unquote

for you.

made for you,

Yeah, that's true.

So I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm
just trying,

I hear it.
I hear it.
I hear it.
This is like the tension at thecenter of my, I think, romantic
life is that I am, I love.
I love so much.
I'm such a romantic.
But I'm also incredibly likepractical as a person and at
times cynical.
And so like those two parts ofmy it's like head and heart.
They're like back, they'realways back and forth.

Smart for your heart, man.

I gotta let go.
I gotta let go.
I don't think I'd be able towrite novels though if my brain
wasn't working like this.

I know.
That's fair.
That's totally fair.
I love too, and I, will sprinklesome fairy dust your way and you
won't know it's coming.

yes.
Thank you.
This is what I need.
I need everyone doing their partto help me out here.

Okay.
The made for each other thing.
What do you, how do you feelabout like astrology?

I feel I probably mentioned astrology at
least once.
'cause I was thinking aboutastrology in when thinking about
this like technology, right?
This idea that you have thistechnology, it doesn't really
change anything about your life,but what do we get out of it?
I feel the same thing aboutastrology.
Like I think I'm pretty skep,I'm a Capricorn, so maybe it
makes sense that I'm prettyskeptical of it.
But I think it shows our needfor guidance and I do think that

(33:10):
tangibly it offers a lot ofpeople that it offers people a
way of making sense of theworld.
And so while I'm a skeptic,that's why I'm not gonna like.
Judge someone for being into it,or, I can, I'll tell someone I'm
skeptical, but like I'll hear'emout.

But you also just said, I'm skeptical because,

yeah.

did you say Capricorn?
What'd you say?
You were.

Yeah.
That's why I'm skeptical.

I'm skeptical because I'm a Capricorn.
Like that, that So you're sayingyou do believe in it?

I'm saying that I I situationally allow myself
to either pretend I'm reallyinto it or I'm like, maybe maybe
what do I know?
The one thing I will sayastrologically that I do, I've
been really convinced of isSaturn return.
I have heard so many people talkabout their Saturn return and
talk to me about it.

(34:04):
And I'm like, and then, I thinkI've just maybe just started
mine.
And I'm like, yeah, like thingsare a little chaotic and crazy.
Like maybe there's something tothis.

Isn't Saturn return when you're like 27?
Are you only 27?

I am 28.
I'm 28.
Yeah.

kill me.

but yeah, I also think, but then okay, bring
in my big brain.
That doesn't let me just let go.
And my big brain's like.
Just being 27, 28 sucks.
That's what it is.
It's not Saturn's place in theuniverse.
It's the fact that being 28 ishard.

it's a hard time in life, but I don't know.
Is there a perfect time?
I don't know.
I don't think there is.
You were talking about thetechnology.
There's something about.
False promises.
And I think especially rightnow, the world that we're living
in with AI and everyone turningto chat GPT for answers and for

(34:59):
guidance and for help.
And what do you make of that?
Or as a young person, how do youfeel about, how do you feel
about it?

I'm super technology skeptical as a person
in general, and I think if youread my work, the stories, this
is about technology and ourrelationship to it.
The short stories I publishedlast year also.
A lot about technology and ourrelationship to it and in
general, I'm

The short stories I published last year.
You mean your book?
There is a Rio Grande in

yeah.

Was nominated for awards and like really famous
and popular.
That little book of stories.

that little book of stories that maybe
people have heard of, hopefully.
I, yeah, I think I'm skepticalbecause I think that people
wanna treat, and this is how Ifeel about AI specifically, they
wanna treat technology as thiskind of silver bullet solve all
for our problems.
And I don't know that technologyalone can do that, can fix
anything because there has to belike the human will to like also

(35:57):
address, to use the technologyin a positive and ethical way.
And also sometimes with ai, I'mlike, do I need to be using AI
right now?
Every co like literally everycompany you can think of is
talking about how they're usingai and I'm like.
I don't think door like DoorDashis working fine.
I don't think I need likeDoorDash to be telling me how
they're using ai.
And so I, I'm not like totallyagainst it, but I am pretty

(36:19):
skeptical and I'm worried abouthow people, I'm basically
worried about people overpromising on what it can do.
And I was thinking a lot aboutthat.
When I was writing the book,that was actually, so I started
writing this book in 2019.
And I feel obviously we knewabout ai, but the conversation
was really different.
It wasn't everywhere.
The way it's become in the last,like two years-ish.

(36:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So early on in editing, I thinkmy, my, my editor, the amazing
Jessica Vest at Mariner, waslike, I like the technology.
It's really interesting, but Ithink you need to write a little
bit more about it.
Like how it functions in theworld.
And she very smartly andPresciently was like, maybe

(37:01):
think about how ai, howconversation about AI are
happening.
And that really clickedsomething for me.
And I think part of the revisionwas trying to write a little
more explicitly about, and sothere's definitely some kind of
parallel between AI today andthe way this device is being
approached.

Back to love for a

yes.

Not, I promise I won't.
It's not about you.
Is some of, there's a componentin the book that is really about
romanticizing what life could belike as an adult gay man.

Yeah.

What was that like for you as a young person?

Oh my gosh.
I don't know.
I mean it's, the real challengeas far as the book went, I think
was trying to drop myself andmaybe this is worth saying, I
don't know if we've said it,like there's a large part of
this book that's like historicalfiction set in the, like late
seventies, early eighties.
And I had to drop myself intothe car, a gay man in the

(38:05):
seventies in El Salvador, partof this really masculine
revolutionary movement.
And I was like, so what wouldsomeone, like these questions
that maybe I have some thoughtson, like what's it like to be in
the closet?
What's it like to imaginemarriage for yourself or not be
able to imagine marriage foryourself?
I think I would, I could use theway I was, have thought about
these things.
But I did have to really situateit as much as possible in the

(38:27):
historical moment.
So I think like maybe like myfeelings or thoughts about these
things were an entry point.
And then I was like, okay, let'smake sure this feels like
realistic and true to the timeperiod.

How did your experience compare to that of
this person in the seventies?

mean Oh, that's such a good question.
I don't know.
I think.
I feel very lucky to be livingat the time that I'm living.
We're living in a really scarytime, I think where queer rights
and trans rights especially arebeing politicized and pushed,
backed against.
Like it's definitely, I.
Something I'm thinking about ina different way, but I did grow
up at a time where there was asense of like optimism, I think.

(39:08):
And so I, I had a hard timeactually accessing because I
feel like I experienced a lot ofoptimism.
Me and my friends were able to,grow up in a time of optimism,
the Obama years and like allthat.

Old were you when you came out?

It was like a trickle.
Over the years.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I dunno, probably not tillcollege though.
Yeah.
Pretty late.
Yeah.

Okay.
But that's interesting tocompare.
So there, while there isoptimism, I think there's still
perhaps an element of discomfortor fear or

yeah.
Totally.
I think they're like, I don'tknow, will maybe not always be,
but I think.

Yeah,

There still is, and I think for understandable
reasons and also like differentpeople's context is different,
right?
Like I think like living in NewYork, living in a big city, it's
no, this is a non-issue, right?
But you go even just a few townsover and it's like you're still
in New York, like a liberalstate, but like people's
attitudes towards, sexuality andgender are really different.

(40:10):
And yeah.
Yeah, I think the hard part waslike.
Grappling the like capturingthat fear and anxiety that I
think still exists in some formsand like thinking about what
it'd be like if that was likeeverywhere.
And in such a like particularcontext in El Salvador.
That's a nice thing aboutfiction though.
You don't have to get itcompletely historically, right?
So you can just Yeah.

(40:32):
Find

Yeah, and it's I think that's partly why readers
often assume that.
That they're reading versions ofauthors on the page because,
things don't need to be perhapshistorically accurate per se,
but they're through the lens ofthis author.
But Right.

(40:53):
It's interesting'cause like you,you came out at a time where gay
marriage was legal,

Yeah.
Basically, yeah.
Totally.
It was, yeah, it's weird.
I think, and one thing likegoing back to this que question
of trans rights, something I'vebeen really thinking about is
it's scary times.
I think even for I dunno peoplein the US are saying like, let's
roll back gay marriage, which islike super scary.
But I think like the most, liketo me, there was a time where

(41:21):
gay marriage was like.
Hard to imagine and hard to talkabout.
The way that I think now transrights is hard to talk about and
for some people to imagine.
And it feels to me like thefight has shifted, the way
people talk about trans and Idon't know, like I grew up
hearing some awful things abouttrans people, even after gay
marriage was quote unquotesolved in liberal California.

(41:42):
I don't know.
I think, I guess like in generalwith my writing, I think a lot
about historical parallels.
And so like the way people talkabout one issue, is really
specific, but we talk aboutthings the same way, about
different things in similarways, and I think that's
something that I have to dothink about to write this book,

Totally.
And it's interesting'cause Ithink that me saying, and you
came out at a time where gaymarriage was legal, was.
Was less about that specificallyand more about acknowledging
everything's changed, yetnothing has changed.

Yeah, exactly.

Like in theory there's quote unquote less to be
afraid of, and yet there's not.

And there's also the context of this is a
really international book.
Like some of it, like a lot ofit takes place in the US but it
also takes place in El Salvadorand in Cuba.
And these are countries thattoday have really complicated
and regressive views onsexuality and gender.
Yeah.

Sim similar path.
There's a quote in the bookabout people find joy among all
the difficult parts of life.
What are some examples of thatfor you?
I.

Oh my goodness.
Hanging out with my friendsgoing to the club in the summer.
I.
When I don't have to coat, checkmy coat.
I'm thinking recently I've, Imoved to Queens about a year ago
and my life changed because Ilove my, like where I live which
is not the case at my lastapartment.
And like a good meal like canreally turn around a week for

(43:18):
me, and there's a lot of optionsfor that around me.
Yeah, I

It's interesting to hear your answers because I
think for me, my go-to is glasshalf full and looking on the
bright side and trying to beoptimistic, and so I interpreted
that as in the face of somethingdifficult to see joy in that

(43:44):
specifically.

Yeah,

Which I think is very challenging.
And so I'm, I am,

I like that.
I love that.

I know, I don't know that's really, I don't know
how possible that is all thetime, right?
Oh, okay, here's this hurdlethat I'm facing.
That will only make me stronger,right?
That is not that's, one way tolook at it.
But I think your perspective of,doing the things that bring you
joy in times that are difficult

Yeah.
That's also, yeah, I thinkthat's, I.
I think that's important to me.
And also just maybe this goesback to this idea that like when
we have one narrative whetherit's a cliche or whether it's a
prejudice or whether it's astereotype, right?
It flattens everything else.
I think that's true of liketrauma and difficulty, right?
Because even at the hardesttimes, there are moments of

(44:31):
relief and I think that'ssomething that I had to think
about with this book because thehistorical parts are set amidst,
the start of a civil war like.
That's heavy.
But I think what keeps someone,obviously what keeps people
reading is the fact that thesetwo men are trying to make it
work, right?
And I, needed to write somescenes where they, got to just
hang out and profess their loveto each other.

(44:52):
Because that's always happening,right?
Like people are still goingthrough breakups and getting
together and having children,even amidst these like big,
crazy social and politicalmoments of unrest.

Yeah, that's where the book takes place, and
when the book is coming out,yay.

Yes.
I love living through history.
It's really fun.

Speaking of final, my the last thing I wanna
talk to you about every momentin history is told twice Per the
book.
Can we talk about that

That's good.
Did I write that?

You did

Wow.

the victors and the losers, and it's up to us to
seek the truth.

That's really good.
Wow.
I haven't read, I haven't readthe thi this book all the way
through in a while.
So I'm like, okay,

Yes.
Okay.
I could write a sentence Ididn't, that wasn't even a quote
a direct quote, but somethingalong those

Yeah.

What does that mean to you?

I think a lot of this book came from as an
undergrad I was studying, I wasstudying history and literature,
so I took classes in bothdepartments and like the mind
blowing part of the historystuff was like, there's no
objectivity.
And I was really lucky to likework with some really amazing
scholars who are thinking aboutthis question of.

(46:14):
Of who gets to write history andhow power affects history and
the archive.
I think that's why Archive is inthe title.
And basically like we get theofficial story, right?
That usually is served, usuallyin the service of a government
and what they want, tomemorialize or to put in as the
official history.
And there's a lot of power inthat'cause governments are

(46:35):
powerful, right?
But.
Throughout it all.
There are other people who arewriting history in their own
way, right?
Whether it's like letters thatthey wrote to their loved ones
during those years as a peer inthe novel or others like
pamphlets and art and memoirsand all these other things.
And I think.

(46:58):
Historically we've only triedto, look at the, those with
power and how they write abouthistory.
And I think it's important tolook for the other people who
were either erased or pushed tothe sides.
And I think a lot of historiansworking today are trying to do
that, which is exciting.

It also makes me think about that there, there
are three, three sides to everyconversation.
There's one person's side, theother person's side, and the
truth,

Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.

And I think there's some version of that
too, with history,

Yeah, totally.

it and who's telling it, and who's sharing
it.
And.

And that's nice.
Nice.
The nice thing about fiction isthat you can try to approach
that truth in a new way, right?
Like you can try, especially anovel, which is so expansive
compared to a short story, youcan try bringing in as many
perspectives as possible.
And that was part of the.
The goal here, I think.
Yeah.

Yeah.
I'm so excited for you.

Thank you.

Congratulations.
Archive of Unknown Universes byReen Reyes Jr.
Out now, wherever you get yourbooks.

Yes.

Go get it and think about who your interlock
interlocutor would be.

Yeah.
And also if anyone if any cutesingle people are listening to
the pod, I'm on Instagram, youcan find me.

Oh my God.

This

if gay's reading becomes the reason why you fall
in love, i'm gonna officiate thewedding.
I'm registered in the state ofNew York.
Don't worry.
I'm so excited.
It's already

You guys can all find me on, you know where
my dms are

Yes.
Oh my God.

Harper! (48:31):
Guest Gay Reader time!

well, Chloe Michelle Howard, welcome to
Gay's Reading.

Chloe Michelle Howarth (48:39):
Thank you so much.
I'm buzzing to be here.

Where are you coming from right now?

I am in Brighton, in England.
Really nice, sunny gay seasidetown.
Yeah, I love it.
I've been living here for likefour years now.
And it's such a vibe.
I keep saying, I'll move home toIreland and then I just keep not
doing that.

I do feel like the Irish authors that I've
spoken to do not live in Irelandanymore.

I know.
And I really, I was just inIreland last week and I was
like, this is it.
Like I want to live here, butthen I am not living there.
Like, I dunno, I think it's morethe admin of actually moving
home that I just don't wannadeal with.

What does that look like over there?

It's like.
Just even like even packing abag for a weekend away, I'm
like, I don't wanna do this.
So if I

Oh, so you're not like just talking, you're not
talking like paperwork.
You're talking like any sort oflabor.

Even just booking the flight is like
insurmountable.
Like just, I'm like, I can't doit.

Fair.
Okay.
What, how does the vibe differ?

Well, they're quite different to each
other, but I.
I think I love them equally.
I probably love my hometown alittle bit more.
It's so tranquil there, sopeaceful.
It's beautiful.
Like the nature, the scenery,it's all stunning and it is
really one of those places wherelike everyone knows everyone and
everyone is so nice that, yeah,I love it.

(50:10):
Like it's such a community.
Whereas here in Brighton, a lotmore lively.
There's a lot more going on.
It's like definitely a veryqueer place, but you don't
really have that community'causeit's a city.
Like I don't really know myneighbors too well and I say
hello to them, but you know,it's missing that kind of

(50:31):
personal touch.
But yeah, it's nice.
They're kind of a tonic to eachother'cause they're quite
different.
So I'm kind of lucky.
I get the best of both.

Yeah I totally understand that.
You kept saying the town you'refrom in Ireland.
Where is that?
Can we give it a shout out?

It is a tiny, tiny little village called
Ross Carberry in West Cork.
And, but it's gorgeous.
It's coastal and we have, it'sright on the water.
We have this tiny little square,like a village square.
And yeah, besides like the beachand the square, it's fields and

(51:08):
like mountain, like cliffs thatyou can walk on.
And if you love walking, it'sthe best place to be and you
don't mind the rain.
It's like the best place ever.
It's so picturesque.
But yeah, similar to what you'resaying, like there's not a whole
pile going on there.
But that slow pace, like itsuits me sometimes, you know?

Yes.
There's something very specialabout it.
Americans are so obsessed withIrish culture, with Irish
writers, like the people wholove reading Irish literature is
so interesting to me and likeobviously is a great thing for
you.
We're sort of just like gappingabout Ireland, which I'm
obsessed with.
Um, but like the beasting comesto mind and one of my favorite

(51:52):
books in the last few years isThe Rachel Incident by Caroline
o' Donahue.

Yes.
Yeah, you're right.
Like there's so much good Irishwriting coming out at the
minute.
I love both of those books.
It's a funny thing.
It's like it's Irish writing isdefinitely like a genre, but as
an Irish writer, I don't, I'mnot aware of it in that way.
'cause I,

you are right.

I am an Irish writer.
Yeah, exactly.
It's the same way that like,like I read a lot of like queer
books and a lot of lesbianbooks, but, but for some reason
I don't consider my books to bepart of that, even though they
are,'cause they are lesbianbooks.
I think it's just sometimes Iforget that I also write books.
Maybe that's what it's,

Well, we are here to talk about both of those
things, both what you're readingand what you're writing.
Chloe, as my guest gay readertoday, I have to know what are
you reading?

so I wanna shout out this amazing
queer book that I read.
I finished it just recently.
I have it here.
I can hold it up, but it mightbe mirrored.
It's called Dogs of Summer.
Oh my God, it's incredible.
So I could talk for 24 hoursabout this book and it's only
small, but

this.

it just like, it's, I couldn't believe
it.
It's one of the best books.
It's my favorite book I've readso far this year.

Really, you've read three.

I've read.
Yeah, it's the only book I'veread so far.
Imagine it's, I think it's upthere in like my favorite books
I've ever read.
It's just excellent.
I didn't ex, I didn't know whatto expect from it.
So basically it's about thesetwo 10-year-old girls and
they're living in Tenerif andthey, one, it's one of the girls

(53:36):
is sort of beginning to fall inlove with her best friend, but
because they're so young, shedoesn't really understand that's
what it is.

Yeah.

So we are kind of seeing it as that,
like as a reader, youunderstand, but from her point
of view.
She's just sort of frustrated bywhat these feelings are and the
language is so like it's I wasshocked.
It's very visceral.
It's like violent, disgustingprose.

(54:05):
It's like it's gross.
So much of it.
I was like, what?
But it's like it's done likethat on purpose because.
I read this interview with theauthor where she said she wants
to like capture the last kind ofmoments in a girl's life where
she's an animal before she getsmade into a woman.

Oh, interesting.

And so they literally, these two girls,
like they behave like animalsand it's just bizarre.
And what's even more fascinatingabout it is that I, it's a
translation.
So the, I obviously haven't readthe original, I've read the
English version and.
All of the language in the bookis so like arresting and so

(54:46):
refreshing that I'm like, oh myGod, this translator and the
author, just the way they musthave worked together on this.
It blew me away when I realizedI kind of thought it was a
translation.
I was going, no, I can't be.
It can't be.
'cause it's just,

Too specific

yeah, exactly.
I was like, how the hell didthey even, like, there's a lot
of words that are likemisspelled because it's like a
10-year-old.
Like just using some Englishwords here and there, and I like
the specifics of that.
Oh my God, I was just blown awayby it.
I You have to read it.
You have to.

All right.
I'm gonna check.
I wrote it down.
I'm gonna check it out.
Translations are always sointeresting to me.
Like Frederick Backman, all ofhis books are translated into
English'cause he writes in, Iassume, Swedish.
I.
And it is always astonishing tome that a vibe and humor and
very specific things can betranslated.

(55:41):
Meticulously.

Yeah, exactly.
And then, but then I wonder, I'mlike, what am I missing out on?
Is there, there must be somelike specific cultural things
with translations that they haveto sort of.
Phrase in a different way.
And I, I'm amazed by the factthat like this and the original
are like, they're two differentbooks and if someone else was to

(56:03):
translate it, that's a thirddifferent book.
Like I just find it so

What language is it translated from?

It's from, I believe it's Spanish or
is it Catalan?

oh, Uhhuh.

Chloe Michelle Howar (56:15):
translated by the person who, have you
heard of the book?
Boulder by Ava Baltazar.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's the same translator.
So I think I'm going to try andread everything that she's
translated because she's just,and she seems to do a lot of
like lesbian fiction.
I don't know if that's whatshe's just been given or if
that's what she seeks out, butyeah, Julia Sanchez is the
translator.
She's I'm quite amazed by her.
She's brilliant.

And that'll be interesting for you to see as
well how much of herself is inher translations.

Exactly.
Yeah.
I think, yeah, like even thoughthey're two different authors,
those two books definitely havea similar vibe.
Like there's something aboutthem when they were translating
my book, sunburn into German,the translator.
Had to message me.
And in Ireland you'd say, like,we're going on the session
tonight, which is like, just anevening of like drinking and

(57:12):
maybe drug taking kind of aparty for no reason.
And it could, it could happenlike out or just in someone's
living room, but it's like a, agathering to drink essentially.
And the translator messaged meand she was like, what, just can
you explain like, what is thissession?
Like, what, where are theygoing?
What is this?
And I had to just be like.
I don't know if there's gonna bea word for this.

(57:32):
Like, I don't know how you'll,how will you translate it,

you translate it?

Yeah.
And because I don't speakGerman, I don't really know like
where it ended up and how thatwhatever phrase is used is gonna
land.
I find it so interesting.

And then it's up to the translator to interpret
what that feeling is and put itin the words of the language
that they're translating into.
That's so interesting.
You talked about reading a tonof queer and lesbian books.
Are there any others off the topof your head that you'd wanna
shout out?
I think it's just always good toknow, especially from a

(58:08):
different part of the world,what people are reading.

I am weirdly reading a lot of
translated fiction at theminute.
I'm not sure why.
So like I Boulder, like I justmentioned, Ava Bazars Boulder.
It's a really skinny littlebook.
Brilliant.
I'm also reading this amazingbook called Feast While You Can,
which is like, have you heard ofthat?

Uhhuh.

Yeah, like queer horror.
I never really read horror, butI am, I think this is gonna be
my year to get into horror,maybe queer horror, first to
warm myself up and then,

There's another queer horror book called The
Lamb.

oh, don't talk to me about the lamb.
I loved it.
Have you read it?

I didn't read it.
No, but I'm like very

Oh my God.
So I was nervous because I'm avegan and it's a lot about
cannibalism.

Even the cover alone, if you're a vegan, would
turn you off.

Chloe Michelle Howar (58:59):
literally.
And like I don't even cook meat.
Like I don't even like to washup plates that I've had meat in
them'cause it makes me feelsick.

Yeah.

And so I was afraid going into it, but
actually I couldn't believe likeit, it's written with such grace
and such, like the cannibalismis like, it's really dignified
and it makes sense and it's notlike, it's not there just for
the sake of like.

(59:25):
Oh, spooky, scary, disgusting,gripping thing.
It's, it actually is beautifuland it all makes sense within
the story.
And I was just, I was like, whata talent Lucy Rose is to make me
want to read about this.

This is your year of queer horror.
Look at you

actually is.

and queer horror.
We figured this out.

me sound so cool and sophisticated that
those are my like things I'minterested in right now.

We have to talk about sunburn, your book, which
for you is old news.
You're like, this has been outsince 2023

Chloe Michelle Howarth (01:00:01):
Yeah,

Jason Blitman (01:00:02):
in the uk.

It's fun though because like even the
version you have there is the UScover, which is so different to
the cover that I'm used toseeing it fe it actually feels
like it's all new again.
Like it's so exciting.
And I, yeah, I can't believethat it's like having a proper
like rollout in America.
I never imagined that that wouldhappen, so, um, yeah,

Tell me, what's your elevator pitch for the
book,

Okay.
So actually I

done a hundred times.

get, I had to ask my partner, Erin to
like create the elevator pitchbecause I, people would ask me
what it was about and I'd belike, oh, I don't really know.
It's about romance and class andall.
Like, I was doing it from liketoo broad.
So Erin told me what it, my bookis about,

Listen.
Bless Erin.
Thank you,

thanks, dear to God for Aaron.
So it's, it's, queer coming ofage story set in the 1990s in
rural Ireland.
That's my elevator pitch.

Fab.
I've heard you talk aboutwanting to paint the picture of
the beauty and the boredom ofthe time in Ireland.
What was that like?
Sort of reliving?

So I, I wrote it during COVID and I was
living in rural Ireland at thetime, so I, I was like, this is
as intense as this could get, Iguess except for the fact that I
had the internet, like that was,the one thing that like made a
difference.
But it's like when I was growingup for, so full disclosure, I'm
not a nineties child.
I was born in 96, so I didn'treally grow up in that era.

(01:01:35):
I didn't grow up in that era,but like, it's not too far from
what I grew up in.

right?
For you.
It's historical fiction

exactly.
But, um,

for me.
It's my trauma.

Oh dear.

I actually remember what it was like
growing up without a computer.

oh my God.
I remember having like, the biglike fat backed computer and
like the tower and everything,and I remember dial up and
things like that, but.
During COVID I didn't evenreally have to cast my mind back
that far because I was like,well, actually this is it.
Like, it's quiet.
I can't go out, I can't doanything, can't see anyone like
it.

(01:02:11):
It really did take me back tothat that type of lifestyle.
Which was so useful when writingthe book because I didn't like
it.
It was all there before me justwaiting to kind of be written
about.
Like, it, it, it gave me so muchsource material.
But I think as well, like I, Idefinitely thought when I was
writing it that it was like auniquely Irish thing, but I have

(01:02:31):
realized that it seems peoplefrom anywhere in the world seem
to relate to like.
being a teenager when you'relike, I actually just don't
wanna be here anymore.
I want to be somewhere else.
It's a funny thing.

Even if you didn't grow up in a small town,

Yeah, exactly.
I think when you're young, likethe idea of like your family and
your neighbors and the peoplearound you knowing like who you
are and what you're doing andknowing your business, I think
that's awful when you're young.
But like the older I get, themore I really crave that.
I think there's actually suchsafety in it.
But yeah, I think when you're ateenager, being like seen in

(01:03:04):
that way is just the worst.
It's like repulsive.

This is so funny that you bring this up because I
have been asking all of my guestgay readers of late, in an
effort to amplify the peoplearound us, if they were to die
tomorrow, who would they ask todelete the search history on
their computer?
Depending on how old they are,they laugh, they say, that's
such a good question.

(01:03:28):
And then we sort of like move onto talking about who they would
amplify.
There are other people who seethat as sort of a ridiculous
question and but be, I thinkbecause of growing up when we
did and we.
The trauma of people being up inour business at that specific

(01:03:49):
point in time, that meanssomething to us.
Whereas some older guests arelike that's a dumb question.
Why would you ask me that?

Oh my God.
That's actually like a deepquestion, isn't it?

That's what I think.
Well, because you know, there,it's also, it also says a lot
about, you know, you and who weare and who we would sort of
turn to in a time of need and.

I

So you're not allowed to say your partner, but
who would it be?

Oh no.
'cause that's who I would'vesaid.
Okay, who would it be?
Probably my friend circa, mygood friend circa, I think I
would ask her because we, shelives in London.
We don't live that far from eachother, But we don't get to see
each other that much, and wevoice notes.

(01:04:33):
Like all day, every day.
And so she kind of is my Googlein a way.
Like if I'm just talking and Ithink of something, I'll just
ask it to her.
And I feel like she understandsme in a way that like, she
wouldn't judge me if I'm, if allI'm Googling is like Kim
Kardashian, networth, ChloeKardashian, networth, Kylie
Jenner Networth, she'd be like,that's interesting.

(01:04:54):
Like let's talk about each oftheir, you know what I mean?
Like

Why is that important to you?

Because I love playing a game with
people where I say like acelebrity and I say, guess their
net worth.
I'm sure it's always wrong onGoogle, but I love doing that.
And I also love Guess the Age,so I'll be like Tom Hanks and
then someone has to guess theirage and I love like just then
Googling all their ages.

Another good one can be, how tall are they?

Yes.
Oh my God, that's a really goodone.
Although, do you know, it'sembarrassing.
Like so it a lot of my.
Search history is words that,'cause I need synonyms for them.
But I would be embarrassed ifanyone saw and thought I didn't
know the definition to thosewords.
Like I looked up what was, ohyeah, I looked up the word
dramatic today to get synonymsfor it.

(01:05:41):
But I would hate someone to comealong and be like, does she not
know what they were dramaticmeant?
Like that would be reallyembarrassing.

I know.
I wonder it now with thepopularity of chat GPT and ai.
It could be very interesting tolike, put in your chat history
or your search history and say,describe this person to

Oh God.
Imagine mine would be like, um,she's boring and stupid.

and is she Irish?
We can't tell.

Yeah,

So funny.
Well, I am so excited thatsunburn is coming out in the
States.
I hope you have a wonderful timewith your friend whose, whose
map you're using as abackground.

thank you.
Yeah, he's like in and outta theroom, I'd say.
He's like, what are they talkingabout?

Shout out to him.
Thank you for letting you usehis space.
Chloe, Michelle Howard, thankyou for being here.
Everyone go get sunburn it isout now.
Wherever you get your books.

Thank you so much,

for your American debut.

Thank you.
This was so fun.
I loved this.
Thank you so much.
Reuben.
Chloe, thank you so much forbeing here today.
Everyone appreciate you asalways.
Have a wonderful rest of yourweek and I will see you next
week.
Bye.

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