Tom Ryan (We Had a Hunch) feat. Kim Chi, Guest Gay Reader

Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Gaze reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what, andwhy.
Anyone can listen.
Comes we're spoiler free Readingfrom politic stars to book club
picks where the curious mindscan get their picks.
So you say you're not gay.

(00:24):
Well that's okay.
There's something for everyone.
Gays rating.
Hello and welcome to Gay'sReading.
I'm your host, Jason Biman, andon today's episode, I have
author Tom Ryan talking to meabout his book.
We Had a Hunch, and then I haveRuPaul's Drag Race, queen

(00:47):
Extraordinaire.
Kimchi, who's my guest gayreader today, and talks to me
about, uh, two different booksher cookbook, kimchi Eats the
World, uh, as well as a YA bookthat she has out now as well.
Both of their bios are in theshow notes, and if you like what
you're hearing, share us withyour friends.
Follow us on social media.
We are at gay's reading over onInstagram last night I had the

(01:10):
pleasure of being inconversation with author Steven
Rowley for his new holidaynovella, the Dogs of Venice.
So make sure to check that outIt's a, makes a really terrific,
uh, holiday gift.\ We justannounced the new book club
through Altoa.
Which of course is IMU byVictoria Riddell.
I had a spoiler freeconversation with Victoria that

(01:32):
came out last week.
You could check that out.
Um, last week I also had, uh, a,what are you reading?
Episode with Scott and MarkHoing talking about their
children's book and also whatthey've been reading.
Scott, of course, is on.
Dancing with the Stars right nowand has been doing super well as
far as I understand.
My mom and sisters tell me, so.

(01:53):
And what else?
Oh, another, what are youreading?
Episode with Heather AmyO'Neill, who wrote, The Irish
Goodbye, which is a wonderfulfamily drama.
The, uh, current read with JennaBook Club Pick, thank you so
much for being here and enjoy myconversations with Tom Ryan and
kimchi,

Jason Blitman (02:13):
very happy to have you here.
Tom Ryan, welcome to Gay'sReading.

Tom Ryan (02:16):
Thank you so much.
I'm so happy to be here.
I love interviews and as youknow, I I broke my ankle
recently and I have not seenvery many people other than
family members dropping offfood.
So this is a real jump into thesocial world beyond my the walls
of my house.

Great.
It's my pleasure.
We can have hangout time andtalk about broken limbs, which
is,

Tom Ryan (02:37):
I am ready.

very classy.
I should send you pictures of myof my x-rays from when I had,

Tom Ryan (02:43):
Oh no, please don't.
I wouldn't look at my x-rays.
When I went into the emerge,they asked, do you wanna see?
I said, no, I couldn't do it.
I'm not worried with blood.
Not there was, I've never brokena bone and something about it
just really.
Hit at a po a part of my brainthat had never been accessed,
and I just don't wanna seewhat's going on in there.

Yeah,

Tom Ryan (03:01):
wanna see what went on in your leg either.
So no offense.

I'll save you.
It's fine.
But I, so I was alone in myapartment in New York City and
had to call 9 1 1 for myselfwhen it happened.
And when the EMS guys got me tothe er, one of the, I, like I
was, they brought me to thetrauma center.
I was so out of it.
I was it was a crazy day.
And the, this one.

(03:26):
Very handsome.
My dad, EMS guy leaned over thegurney and he was like, gimme
your phone.
You're gonna want a picture ofthis for later.

Tom Ryan (03:35):
It's smooth

And I was like, okay.
And sure enough, I am sograteful that I have a photo of
what it looked like before acast one on, and I won't
obviously share with you, butthe EMS guy knew

Tom Ryan (03:49):
so.
did you stay in touch?

No.
He didn't ask for my phonenumber.
He just asked for the phone totake a picture.
He should have, I should havegiven him my phone number.

Tom Ryan (03:59):
That's a different

anyway.
I know.
Oh, I would read that book orwatch that movie.
Speaking of books, we are hereto talk about, we had a hunch,
your new baby.

Tom Ryan (04:10):
Yeah

which obviously your pub celebrations have been
are, have looked differently Iimagine, than you originally
imagined with crutches and such.

Tom Ryan (04:22):
a little bit.
Most of, I had, I've only hadtwo in per, I was at two
festivals.
The weeks leading up to this.
So I did a bit of pre-launchstuff out in the world and
everything else has been online.
I did have to push a few thingsoff.
The first week I was in a lot ofpain, so I just couldn't, and
fortunately this worked out wellbecause we both needed to move
it a bit.
But yeah, generally it's it'sweird.
Launch launching is verystrange.

(04:44):
This is my first time I'velaunched in Canada and the US on
two different days.
They always come out on the sameday, but for whatever reason, my
Canadian publisher dropped aweek early, so that was a bit
weird.
And generally, once you've donethis a few times, you realize
that a lot of the excitement isin the buildup.
And the launch day itself is,it's great because it's out
there and you can say my book'sout there, but you've been
building up.

(05:04):
So there's been so much energyput into the buildup that it
becomes a flat, calm day.
People are screaming at you onsocial media, but internally
it's more of closing a chapterthat's done.
I've done my part.
And of course there'll be morestuff coming up down the road
and but yeah, it is out thereand now I'm getting reviews and
people are telling me they'veread it and I'm that's always

(05:24):
fun.
Mostly fun.

So what is your elevator pitch for?
We had a hunch.

Tom Ryan (05:31):
had a hunch is the, so this is my,

He says, with a deep sigh.

Tom Ryan (05:35):
I, no I love the elevator pitch.
I'm just, there's so much goingon.
How do I tighten it?
I need to give a bit ofbackground.
The fir the background is that Iused to write young adult
mysteries and I used to love asa kid, young adult mysteries,
hardy boy, an answer to you nameit.
And when I made the leap toadult mysteries a question that
kind of lingered for me was.
What happens to the teendetectives, because I used to
write them, I used to read aboutteen detectives.

(05:57):
What happens when they grow upand hit middle age, and this is
their background and whathappens when they get dragged
back into the sleuthing world.
So that's the really tightelevator pitch is what happens
to your favorite teen detectiveswhen they grow up?
The broader story is

It, that's that I, that's okay.
That's totally fine.
Yeah.
I hate reading a blurb.

Tom Ryan (06:16):
Yeah.

Because it typically, it gives away so much
plot and it's just, I think formost readers, if you really need
to know more than a sentence,fine, go look it up.
But also, I will say the firsttwo, or the first, like two big
chunks of the back of the bookjust says, Nancy Drew meets

(06:38):
yellow jackets.
Right?
And so I think that's anothergreat way of.
Giving a sense of what a vibe isgonna be.

Tom Ryan (06:44):
A hundred percent.
In this case, I think it fits.

Uhhuh No.
I agree.
I didn't watch Yellow Jackets.
But seeing that on the back ofthe book, I looked up what the
premise of Yellow Jackets is.
And also.
Coincidentally, this has beenhappening a lot in my
conversations recently whereI've consumed real life content
that was related to aconversation that I was about to
have.
But I just watched the BTKdocumentary on Netflix.

(07:12):
Is this, does that mean anythingto you?

Tom Ryan (07:14):
Remind me, I know.
BTK I'm steeped in true crime tothe point that I met.
What, which one is

BTK is, I don't remember what the B is, but it's
something, torture, kill andbuying, torture, kill.
And it was this serial killerthat it, they didn't solve the
crime until sort of decadesafter things were happening.
And there it was it was very I,without giving anything away, it

(07:41):
was so relevant to.
It was a good companion piece tothe book, which was a fun
surprise as I was watching.

Tom Ryan (07:48):
Was it a DNA solve?
You know how they're finding allof these?
They're going back to all thesecold cases because the DNA, the
family matches are showing up.

right.
It was not exactly that was acomponent of how they solved the
crime, but that isn't why theyrevisited it.
Yeah, it was very similar interms of the back and forth time
period in relation to this book.
Anyway.
This is, I remember as a kidbeing so afraid of the TV show,

(08:22):
unsolved Mysteries

Tom Ryan (08:23):
my God.
Yes.
Love.

you said it with.
So with such emphasis, say more.

Tom Ryan (08:29):
my brothers and I, so I grew up in Nova Scotia in a
very small town.
We had two TV stations, we hadno cable of any kind.

Okay.

Tom Ryan (08:37):
we got unsolved mysteries and what was the other
Unsolved mysteries was RobertStack, is that right?

I think so.
Yeah.

Tom Ryan (08:43):
and the other one was Rescue 9 1 1, which was more
kind of real life ambulancestories, but unsolved mysteries.
My brothers and I were obsessed.
It was everything from ghosts toaliens to, and so scary.

Yeah.
I like couldn't sleep at nightafter watching it because I I
think even to this day, the I,the thing that is, I'm not
scared of someone breaking in.
I'm not scared.
There's a lot that I'm notscared of.
I'm scared of the face in thewindow.

Tom Ryan (09:09):
Oh, yes, absolutely.

Do you know what I mean?

Tom Ryan (09:12):
Yeah.
You look up, you're comfortable.
And then, okay.
you ever seen communion?
Have you seen the movieCommunion?

No.

Tom Ryan (09:19):
It is aliens.
It's a little bit adjacent, butthere's a scene where there, the
guy is just in his apartment andhe turns and there's a face in
the corner of the room and itliterally the most chilling
thing you've ever seen.
So yes I'm with you on that.

Yeah.
And for some reason, just likethe concept of unsolved
mysteries, like face in thewindow is that for me, right?
I can't explain why, but I thinkthere's just someone knows more
than you do.

Tom Ryan (09:42):
Yeah.
It's the vulnerability piece andthe thought that someone, the
thought that you are in yourspace.
It's the, it's the windowbecause you're in your space.
You're supposed to be safe inyour space.
The door is locked, and all of asudden somebody's there, they're
going to find a way to get in.
That's the heart of so muchhorror and thriller.
Thriller writing.

Yeah.
And so the book talks a lotabout it's the, it's a journey
of unanswered questions, right?
And that's.
I think where my mind goes to interms of unsolved mysteries, Do
you have any of those in yourown life, do you think?

Tom Ryan (10:14):
Any unsolved mysteries.

Yeah.
Or like whatever.
Whatever that means to you.
I don't necessarily mean like acrime or.

Tom Ryan (10:23):
I was always, so I really grew, I can't emphasize
how.
Remote.
My, my childhood was, we're in avery small town, but we were
well outside of the town on thissort of a gravel road with
abandoned farms, and it was justme and my brothers.
We were the only kids, so wespent a lot of time in that sort
of environment on our bikes.
And I was a, I was the oldest, Iwas a very imaginative kid and.

(10:45):
Prone to drama and I wouldbasically drag my three little
brothers around with me and wewould explore these old houses
and we would, do stuff we today.
You wouldn't let your kids justroam free like this.
And there was a lot ofspookiness built into that.
I remember just creating thesescenarios where we would go into
this.
I remember one house inparticular, it was this old.

(11:05):
Abandoned farmhouse thatprobably no one had lived in for
50 years.
And it was just structurallysound enough that you could
squeeze the door open and youcould squeeze into the house.
The floor in the kitchen hadcollapsed into an old root
cellar, and we would skirtaround the edges and go upstairs
in this house that three littlefour little kids should not have
been in this house.
And I just remember being inthere with my brothers and just

(11:25):
winding us all up in the sensethat.
Something's going on here.
This there's a reason that we'rein this house.
There's a reason that this housemade itself available to us.
And everything about that wasscary and spooky.
And that, that's the vibe of thearea that I grew up in.
We did one time find a, agarbage bag full of weed, one of
these houses, which isn't reallyscary, but at the

bag full.

Tom Ryan (11:49):
full.
Black trash bag.
And we, and it was, we would belooking for se secret passages
and stuff, and we found thishidden ceiling in this old
house, and I kicked it up withan old broomstick and this bag
fell down and it was new.
Some guy was hiding his stash

Yeah.
S

Tom Ryan (12:06):
it was all wrapped up.
So to us, we were out solvingmysteries.
We never solved it, but we neverknew who did it.
But we thought, oh wow, we'recaught up in a mystery.
This is just the world thatwe're living in.

Yeah.
That's really fun.
Is that, do you think, whatinfluenced your interest in
Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew, oryour writing young adult
mysteries?
I.

Tom Ryan (12:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
Part of it.
So I, I was really an isolated,your typical gay bookworm kid.
I was very introverted, veryisolated, didn't have a lot of
friends, not bullied so much asjust off by myself.
And I was not a kid whoimagined.
Being a sports hero or a spaceor a fantasy person, I pictured

(12:45):
myself solving mysteries.
That was my thing.
And so the teen detective genrewas perfect for me.
And when I was about nine or 10,I was in my local hospital for a
week.
I had respiratory issues andthere was a tiny children's ward
with four beds, and I was theonly kid in there.
And in the corner of this room,they had this massive bookcase
full of Nancy Drew and HardyBoys.
Titles.

(13:05):
So the Big Blue, the Blue SpineHardy Boys and The Yellow Spine,
Nancy Drew.
And that's when I firstdiscovered those books, which I
don't know if you read them, butthere are a million of them.
And oh my gosh, they're soaddictive.
They're really, when you lookback at them now, they're really
tame in so many ways.
And they're really the genderroles are, there's a lot going
on in terms of training thetoday's youth.

(13:26):
But the mysteries are really funand really campy, and there
would be mysterious.
The face in the window.
There was a lot of the face inthe window in Nancy Drew.
And if you look a lot of thosecovers and just, these kind of
clean jean, squeaky cleanteenagers getting caught up in
solving crimes and mysteries andchasing down kidnappers and
stuff.
So yeah, it was a sweet spot forme, always.

(13:47):
I always loved mysteries and Igraduated obviously to more
mature stuff'cause I was aserious reader and I got into
everything from Agatha Christieto Stephen King, anything
mysterious and thrillery.
At a pretty young age, but itbegan with those books for sure.

There are like so many things I'm curious about,
but because you have just talkedabout how well read you are in
the genre, is there much thatsurprises you anymore?

Tom Ryan (14:12):
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
The thing is, I, it's funnybecause with movies, no, I love
film, but I got to a point whereI was watching movies.
I can always guess what's goingto happen in a movie, but a
well-written, almost always, Iknow what's happening in a
movie.
It's just and you see theartifice behind the scenes and I
just, I.
I can't have that fulldisconnect from reality watching

(14:33):
a film the way I used to.
But with books, no problem.
I can sink into a story and becompletely surprised.
And there are so much good stuffbeing written right now in the
mystery and thriller corner ofpublishing that I feel like I'm
constantly being surprised.
There's just amazing stuffalways.
I would say I read as much as Ilisten to audiobooks, it's half
and I would.

(14:55):
I don't know if there's a, Idon't know if I'm likeer to see
things coming when I'm reading.
I think maybe I am, becausethat's my mode, that's my medium
is the written word.
But when I'm listening, for sureI'm just caught up in the
stories and yeah.
I'm surprised all the time.
There's great stuff beingwritten.

that's really fun.
I.
I, this is not this has nothingto do with, we had a hunch, but
I feel like the more content Iconsume, the more options I am
able to see when it comes tosolving something in a book.
For example, having watched andloved mayor of East Town.

(15:34):
The TV series, watching that,there was a book that I read
where I guessed somethingbecause I was keyed into it as a
concept from Merrit East Town.
And my husband is.
Reads this genre or historicallymore than me.

(15:55):
So sometimes he'll read a bookand see something coming faster
than I because he just like thesort of sampler platter for him
is bigger, which is why I wasasking if having this sort of,
there are only so many stories.
Right?

Tom Ryan (16:06):
There are, and I will, I don't want to give the wrong
impression.
There are I, there are manybooks that I read and I am not
surprised,

Of course.
Of course.

Tom Ryan (16:13):
chapter three.
All the time.
And I think, and that a lot ofthat is sometimes it's, and I no
names, obviously there's I thinkpeople.
Writers like any other creative,you get better as you write.
So a lot of the time, somedebuts I find I, I can see so
much potential in this writer,but the story is just a little
bit just on the surface you canSee things coming.
The beats are really obvious,but there is so much stuff

(16:35):
written by and, some debuts,some kind of early in their
career writers who are justdoing stuff that I've never seen
before.
And, So it's a matter, andthat's half the fun in reading
when you're a dedicated, whenyou're an obsessive reader like
I am and always have been.
Half the fun is, getting throughas much as you can so that you
can find those titles and youcan recommend them to other
people.
Right?

Chris Whitaker's all the colors of the dark.
I don't know

Tom Ryan (16:57):
Oh yeah, I sure did.
Yep.

Love the book.
Love Chris and I, that is agreat example for me of, I felt
like I was, I thought I was 10steps ahead when I was reading
the book, but I was actuallyonly half a step ahead.
'cause I would get to a momentand I would be like, oh, this is
how the book is gonna end.
And then two pages later, thatthing would happen and I was

(17:20):
like, god dammit.

Tom Ryan (17:21):
Yeah, that was a, that is a gr that is such a great
book.
It's a good example of what I'mtalking about in with regards
to.
Totally out of nowhere new typeof book that fits in the model.
And another one is Liz Moore.
Have you read Liz Moore's God ofthe Woods?

I did.
Yeah.

Tom Ryan (17:38):
I love that book.
And for the same sort ofreasons.
I felt like it had a lot of thevibs and the atmosphere and the
familiarity of a classic crimenovel, but so much happened in
there that I just did not seecoming.
And the structure was sointeresting and the back and
forth timeline was justimpressively.
Handled.
I thought that book was justfantastic.
And Chris Whitaker, I've, Idon't know if you've met or
interviewed him, but he has sucha amazing backstory.

(17:59):
Oh my goodness.

I have met and interviewed him in person and on
the podcast and I love that manvery much.

Tom Ryan (18:06):
Yeah, he's great.
I was on a panel with him lastyear and we all had to do a
little introduction and he justwhat a story whole of course he
became a writer.

I know his story is talk about taking his trauma
and turning it into art.

Tom Ryan (18:17):
Yeah.
No kidding.

God of the woods and some books in general.
You get to the end of a storyand you're like, oh, of course.
Of you almost think you'dguessed it already because it
makes so much sense.
You know what I mean?
Anyway,

Tom Ryan (18:33):
that to me is not to stand on it for too long, but
that to me is the mark of aperfect.
Novel or a beautifully donenovel is a one where you get to
the end and you hadn't seen itcoming and your reaction at the
end is surprise.
And of course I think that whena novel leaves you feeling that
way, the novelist has reallydone their job because as a
mystery reader in particularwhere you're trying to solve

(18:53):
this logic puzzle, the reader isengaged in a mystery book more
than they are in a lot ofdifferent types of fiction,
because they're really.
Working alongside the sleuth,the investigator, to figure out
what happened.
So it's a really direct, it's areally connected way to engage
bet for the writer and thereader to engage because you
know that you're setting outthis logic puzzle for your

(19:14):
reader to follow.
And so there's a lot of, thereare a lot of ways that can go
wrong.
But when it's done, when it'shandled right, and when it lands
nice, there's nothing better.
I love it.

So to close the loop on that I will say I had a
similar experience with the endof, we had a hunch where I was
like, of course this makessense.
But the thing that wassurprising, which is almost more
fun, is the why.

Tom Ryan (19:40):
Yep.

And that was very surprising in this book, and I
think in other books too, evenif you guess what's coming to
then understand and have itunpacked and for that meaning to
mean something different, that'sa really nice surprise.
Okay.
You talked about workingalongside of the sleuth.
So much of this book, and Ithink obviously a lot of the

(20:01):
genre in general is the thrillof the hunt.
What is that for you?
On a daily basis?

Tom Ryan (20:07):
In my writing

No in, in all of the above.
What is that thing that likekeeps you going?

Tom Ryan (20:14):
It, for me, it really, this is probably a really boring
answer, but for me I am pushing50, I'm very firmly in middle
age.
I have a lot of the bullshit ofmy younger years is behind me.
I'm in a stable, I have a verystable, nice life.
Things are great in so many wayspersonally and.
I have been able over the pastfew years to slide into a

(20:36):
professional zone that I'vedreamed off my whole life, which
is I'm writing the kinds ofbooks I wanted to write.
I'm slowly, I'm not a juggernautbestseller by any means, but I
am building a readership and Iam connected to two publishers,
one in Canada and one in the USwho worked together with a lot
of enthusiasm and trust in me asa writer.

(20:57):
And so I have book.
Lined up for the next few years,things are set and so for me,
what keeps me going is honestly,it's the work.
I love writing generally, but Ireally love writing mysteries
and it took me a while.
I stumbled around, I wrote YoungAdult Contemporary for a while
and then I accidentally got intoYA mystery and that taught me
that mystery was the right spacefor me.
But I knew I needed to get outof ya because I was aging out.

(21:19):
I couldn't do any more highschool visits.
I was beyond it.
I was never good at it, but theolder I got, the worse I became
at it.
But what it really.
Happened for me was I had a aprofessional setback where my
two YA mysteries did reallywell.
Critically, they won lots ofawards.
They put me on the map in acritical sense.
And then I wrote what I thoughtwas my ma my masterpiece.

(21:39):
And it died on submission.
I took two years away.
I thought, here I am, I'm, I'vegot some momentum.
Let's write this killer book.
And it died on submission.
And at that point I.
Decided I have to do somethingdifferent.
It was like, and it was a YAbook and it felt like the
universe was saying, you're donewith ya.
So that's when I started writingmy last mystery, the Treasure
Hunters Club.
I had promise, I'm getting toanswer your question and uh, and

(22:02):
when I started writing my firstadult mystery, I knew and I, it
was my ninth book, I'd writtenso many ya titles.

Wow.

Tom Ryan (22:12):
I knew at that point I'd always loved writing.
Every book I wrote, I loved themin the moment.
I loved taking'em out andtalking about them.
I still have a lot of fondnessfor those books, especially the
mysteries.
But when I started writing anadult mystery and I, it my, it's
nothing against young adult.
I love young adult fiction.
I still read a lot of it, but itwas, for me, the canvas became
broader.
I could write about any age ofcharacter and I was, and I love.

(22:34):
This book, my last book are bothbig multi character.
There are three main charactersin each one.
There are lots of sidecharacters, they're big casts.
I love that kind of story.
And so when I hit that sweetspot and I and Treasure Hunters
Club did really well.
Certainly my bestselling bookand my most successful book.
In a lot of ways I realized thisis what I'm supposed to be

(22:54):
doing, and there's so much morethat I want to do with it, and
there's so much I wanna achieveand there's, I wanna become
better and I wanna becomebetter, and I wanna become
better.
And I'm, I feel like I,everything is set up now for me
to have the opportunity to.
Attempt that.
So I take what I do reallyseriously and I love it.
It's so much fun.
So for me, the thrill of it allis in the, how can I take this
book, learn from the last book,and then make sure that I learn

(23:17):
from this one and take it to thenext book.
It's like the ongoing, it's chachasing the dragon, but I feel
like I do get closer with everybook to what I'm trying to say.

Yeah, I am so curious what's the cliff note
version of how you stumbled intoYA?
Mysteries.

Tom Ryan (23:34):
I was always going to write.
I wrote as a kid, I wrotethrough high school.
I did an English literaturedegree.
I took creative writing classesat college.
Afterwards, I went and got likea real, I worked in the film
industry for years, but I keptwriting stories and I was trying
to write screenplays.
I was trying to make a livingtelling stories, but it was
always novels.
I wanted to write novels and Idid wanna write mysteries.

(23:55):
And at a certain point, I thinkit was 2010 my husband, who at
the time was in the CanadianNavy we were living on the east
coast of Canada and he wasposted unexpectedly to the west
coast of Canada.
So I had to quit my job.
I had a good job, and it cameoutta nowhere.
And he said to me.
When he came home from work withthis sort of shell-shocked look
on his face, I'm being posted toBritish Columbia.

(24:18):
You should quit your job and youshould take a year to try to
write a novel, which is a prettygreat thing for your partner to
say.
And I didn't need to be reallyconvinced.
And so I got out there becausehe was in the Navy.
We moved to this other part ofthe country.
I knew nobody and he went off tosea on a Navy ship for six
months.
And I thought this is a greatset.
It was just me and the dog inthis new city.
And I started trying to write anadult mystery.

(24:41):
'cause mysteries was the thing,but.
I wanted to meet people.
So I went online and I looked inthe city I was in and I googled
whether there were any writingclasses and there was one
writing class called writing andpublishing for young adults.
It was the only one beingoffered.
So I took it just to meet peopleand I was working on this kind
of dinky little, and inretrospect, the mystery I was
writing was really shitty.

(25:02):
I'm really happy.
That was not the book I tried tosubmit, but I took this class
with this woman who was anacquisitions editor at a YA
house and she liked my work andshe said, you should write
something for me.
And it was the sort ofopportunity, you have an editor
willing to take a book, so Ipivoted

Wow.

Tom Ryan (25:16):
how it happened.
Yep.

if the class was like something very different.

Tom Ryan (25:21):
I know.
Urban fantasy

Exactly.

Tom Ryan (25:23):
yeah.
A whole different experience.

That's so interesting.
You said you were trying to tellstories.
There's a mo there is a, aninfluencer character in the book
and he gets asked, are you aninfluencer?
And the response is, I considermyself more of a storyteller.

Tom Ryan (25:40):
Yeah.

How has that, how has how do I wanna ask this?
You've told stories in differentways in your career.
What has that journey been likefor you and have you found it
fulfilling in general?
What

Tom Ryan (25:57):
Oh my.
Yes,

you know?

Tom Ryan (25:58):
Yeah.
So fulfilling and for me itreally was.
I knew that I wanted to writenovels.
That was and I try, I dabblewith all kinds of stuff.
I really did try to work for along time.
In my city, in, in Nova Scotia,there was a film industry that
was booming and it seemed likean opportunity to get out and
maybe tell stories on for TV andfilm which I still aspired.

(26:18):
I'd love to be able to write forthe screen.
But it was novels.
I wanted to write books becausethat's what I had connected with
so strongly.
That's the stories that spoke tome the most were the books that
I remembered.
So when I first, even going backto that class, the young adult
class, when I first startedwriting, it was very much.
I had set off on this journey tothe West Coast with this goal in

(26:40):
mind.
I've written loads of shortstories.
I didn't know how to write anovel, and so I set out to teach
myself how to write a novel andI, I read on writing by Stephen
King, I read Bird by Bird, byAnne Lamott.
I read all the learning how towrite classics.
But then I took this class withthis YA editor, and she was
really all about story.

(27:00):
What's the story?
What's the story?
What's the story?
All the fancy language, all thebeautiful characters, all the
great scenes, wonderful stuff.
But if you don't have a story atthe heart of it, your readers
won't stick with you.
And that was a really greatlesson to learn early on.
And it was a lesson that hascontinues to stick with me.
Story for me.
I don't write.
Literary fiction, I would aspireto do a Chris Whitaker type

(27:22):
stuff.
Lismore, Tana French is a bigfavorite of mine.
They write what, you call itliterary thrillers, literary
mysteries.
And I hope to someday be goodenough to write that kind of
story where it's a mystery.
But first, for me, at every stepof the way, the story has been
the most important thing andgetting better at telling a
story.
And when you're first starting.

(27:43):
You are you learn your three xstructure, you learn where your
beats are.
You read Save the Cat, and youknow that you need X, Y, and Z
for the story to fall intoplace.
But over time, you obs the moreyou write, the more you absorb
those lessons, and then thatfrees up your brain to start
finding other things and tobecome more nuanced and to bring
in different interestingcharacter subplots.
And I'm, I don't know if I'mrambling here, but the crux of

(28:04):
it is that.
The joy for me is in the findingthe perfectly fine tuned story
that still surprises.
It's so much fun.

And what I'm hearing too is that yes, you've
been a storyteller for yourcareer in these different
avenues, but it in the practiceof it all, you've been able to
fine tune and allow the quoteunquote work.
To not be as apparent is whatI'm hearing.

(28:35):
Yeah, that's interesting.

Tom Ryan (28:37):
Yeah.
I think I and as witheverything, it's the practice
piece because I'm fortunateenough to write.
Full-time, mostly full-time.
I have a lot of time to practiceand I don't take it for granted,
and I take it really seriously.
It's a, one of the things I,anyone who writes for a living
or everyone who writes and ispublished gets a lot of
questions from a lot of aspiringwriters.
And I always try to take as muchtime as I can with people who

(29:00):
come up to me and say, I'vewritten a book, or I wanna write
a book.
I take it really seriously.
I was that person.
I'm still that person.
And one of the things that Ihave found sad over the years,
and this is.
Probably been true forever, butin this era of instant grad,
instant gratification, peopletake the time to write a book,
and that's an amazingaccomplishment to write and to
finish.
Your first novel is the, it's.

(29:21):
It's such an unimaginableachievement when you've wanted
to do it forever, but that bookis not always the book that
needs to be published and, orit's not, might not.
Al and I sometimes there thedebut, the first book you've
written will be fantastic and itwill hit the New York Times
list, and that's wonderful.
More often than not, it was alearning experience and you need
to take what you learn and takeit to the next book.

Yeah.

Tom Ryan (29:43):
The practice is where the good material comes from.
And so that's the lesson I tryto get across to people as
nicely as I can is if you'vewritten a book, try and make
something happen with it, by allmeans.
But if it doesn't, don't put itin a drawer and go onto other
things.
Take what you learn from thatexperience and take it to the
next project and it will bebetter, I guarantee you.

(30:03):
And the one after that will beeven better.

I was just talking to a friend yesterday.
She.
Worked for years on this romancenovel that she's been excited
about and now feels like she'sin that place.
And she's I don't know that thisis the book.
And I was like, girl, you learnthis was your.
MFA and creative writing thatyou didn't have to pay for, you
paid for it in your time.

(30:26):
So now work on that.
Work on the thing that you thinkmight be the book.
I have a handful of ideas fornovels.
There's one that actually isokay, that's a really good idea,
but I don't have the patience,so I don't have the patience to
write and to rewrite and all ofmy novelist friends who are,
going through the editing stageswith their.
Like they have a deal andeverything.

(30:46):
I'm like, I don't, that is notfor me.

Tom Ryan (30:50):
Not right now.
Not right now.
I can't imagine that you're, youhave all these great
conversations.
I can't.
At some point it's gotta bubbleup.
You don't

It's funny, it's less about the conversations and
more about the reading.
The amount that I read, themore, not that I think oh, I
could do that too.
I don't think that, but I do seehow stories can be told, how
many stories can be told, howstories can be told in different
ways.
And that is what is inspiring.
And you're like, oh there's noone way.

(31:19):
And your voice can matter in aspace that feels full.

Tom Ryan (31:25):
Yeah.
And there is a lot of rereading.
There's so much rereading and Isaw I, when you write a book,
you have to read it so manytimes, and this is the thing
nobody understands.
And I saw this I saw on, I thinkInstagram last night, somebody
posted this meme.
It was writing a book is a lotlike reading a book except that
the book hates you.
And

you have to read it 800 times.

Tom Ryan (31:47):
day for the rest of your life.

Yeah.
Yeah.
That's so funny.
Okay.
Who did you play in your highschool production of?
Once Upon a Mattress.

Tom Ryan (31:54):
Oh my.
How did you know?
It's in the book.
It's in the book.
You're the first person to askme.
Now.
My editors didn't ask me.
I was, sir Harry,

So I also did once spin a mattress in high

Tom Ryan (32:05):
were you?
Who were you?

So in high school I played the minstrel.

Tom Ryan (32:08):
Okay.

I was also the set designer and I choreographed
some things and I like it was, Iwas a very busy high schooler.
But when I was in summer camp asa young person and we at a
theater camp and we did once ona mattress, I played Sir Harry,

Tom Ryan (32:26):
No kidding.

I did.

Tom Ryan (32:28):
Oh my God.
Synergy.
I love it.
I love, I could still do thatwhole, this was my final year at
in university and we had amusical theater society and they
would do one show a year.
We did crazy for You the yearbefore that.
And I had so much fun.
I can sing every line of it.
I'm not going to do it rightnow, but oh my God, I love that
play.

I know it's really fun really fun.
I but because it's mentioned inthe book, I was like, oh, once
upon a mattress is such aquintessential high school
musical and yet.
If you didn't have an experiencewith it, why not?
Why

Tom Ryan (33:02):
Why would you pick that?

you clearly had, there was a story whether, maybe
your best friend did it, maybe,but I knew my ins, my hunch was
that you did it in school and

Tom Ryan (33:12):
This is Barbara Walters level journalism.
You did your emotional research.
I really did, and I, the otherthing is I like to, I try to
write visually, I like to thinkI write visually and I imagine
the.
I try to imagine the scenes andthe settings and the places
really vividly.
And then portray that on thepage.
And because I knew that scene, Iwas, I helped paint, I was also

(33:35):
a backstage painter.
I, it was the same sort ofthing, like everybody was doing
everything.
And I remember those scenes, Iremember those sets so clearly.
So for me, when I was settingthat that high school gymnasium
up.
That abandoned school.
There was also an abandonedschool in my hometown that was,
so I had that with the once upona mattress sets molding in the
corner, and I was able toenvision that and write it so

(33:57):
easily.
Because I'd been, I had spent somuch time in that space.

That's really funny.
Yeah, that was, I knew it.
Also, Barbara Walters level ofjournalism is going on a, as a
quote on my website, just so

Tom Ryan (34:09):
Oh, I hope so.
You can still, you can you, youcan have that.

What, so the book.
Takes place, not over two timeperiods.
There's a prologue that takesplace earlier, but there is an
element of quote unquote cominghome.
What is that like for you?
You said you're in your hometownnow.
You what were you like as ayoung person was writing from
this perspective?

(34:33):
Did that bring dust up sort ofyoung person memories for you?

Tom Ryan (34:37):
Not really at this point because I've done that in
previous books I've done.
I've done the, my first book wasa con contemporary gay coming of
age set in a home, a smallseaside town.
In the nineties with a17-year-old coming out, gay
protagonist who worked at arestaurant, and that was it.
So I did all that therapy stuffback then.
However, I do, I did take a lotaesthetically and

(35:02):
geographically.
I like to, like I said, I liketo visualize.
I also like to know the layoutof the towns that I'm writing
and The areas I'm writing.
So a lot of that came from thetown that I'm in.
And the homecoming part is, Ithink also did really seep in
because we have moved aroundquite a bit.
I, as I say, I was a militaryspouse for years until just two
years ago.
And my town is quite remote.

(35:26):
It's called Inverness.
It's a really pretty town on anisland called Cape Red Island on
the end of Nova Scotia.
And so it takes some effort toget here, but it's a great place
to be.
And a few years ago we boughtsome land and we have, long
story short, we have a littlecottage here.
And so I've been spending a lotmore time in my hometown.
In the past few years that Ileft, like I was 18 and I was
outta here, and 1995, Igraduated high school.

(35:49):
So it was not the best time tobe a closeted gay teenager in a
small, remote, small town.
So I wanted to go to collegeand.
Figure out who I was.
But things have changed a lotand I've grown up quite a bit
and I realize how great it ishere.
So coming back and being in myhometown, I think I was able to
transpose some of those vibesonto especially the character of

(36:12):
Sam Samantha, who has been awayforever for her own traumatic
reasons.
She left and she comes back andI think she starts to see the
town through different eyes whenshe gets.
Back to town.
She sees it more for thepositives than the negatives.
And that was my experience forsure.

Are you the kind of person who would go to your
30 year reunion?

Tom Ryan (36:30):
Oh my, yes, absolutely.
I will tell you, we had a I, mygrad class was.
48 people, really small and weare all, almost all still in
touch.
And

Wow.

Tom Ryan (36:40):
yeah, we, most of us are cousins of one sort or
another.
Like it's a really remote, smallpart of the world.
Deep roots.
People here have gener.
I know I'm friends with peoplewho, my grandmother and her
grandmother had a feud back inthe fifties, and you know about
it.
Like it's that kind of thing.
And as a mystery writer comingfrom this kind of place is so
useful because I have the.

(37:01):
Part of writing a mystery isreally digging into the hidden
connections between people.
And I know all the I call it theweb of connection.
I know how everyone in this townis connected.
I know who everyone's, multiplegenerations back.
You go to the graveyards hereand you see the same names that
you were went to school with.
So yeah, it's it's definitely,we are, we're all still
connected for sure.

(37:22):
It's a great spot.

so fun in a very unique way.

Tom Ryan (37:29):
Yeah.

Okay.
Speaking of unique, there is ablip of a thing that comes up
late in the book.
This is not a spoiler but it isso specific to being gay at a,
at a.
Point of technology.

Tom Ryan (37:49):
exactly what you're gonna say.

So there's talk of you log onto your old
computer and you see the filesthat you downloaded from the
internet and hid in a folder,label math class or whatever.
And it's really, hun hunky manor whatever.

Tom Ryan (38:05):
Fitch.

What is that story of yours?

Tom Ryan (38:09):
It was just, it's amazing when I think back to it,
I did not have an email addresswhen I graduated high school.
I went to college and got myfirst email address.
And when you think about howmuch more accessible all the
stuff is to everybody back then,you really had to work for it.
I would come home and I would behome from, for a holiday and my
parents had this big, heavy.
Beige computer in the familyroom, and I would wait till

(38:31):
everyone went to bed and I woulddownload stuff and it would be
save jpeg and put it in a littlefloppy disc and then put that on
my computer and then label itmath class.
That's how I

Are you literally labeled it math class?

Tom Ryan (38:45):
pro.
Probably not because nobodywould've believed that, but
something of that nature.
I would all be, it would all bemislabeled.

I wasn't sure if you remembered specifically
because when I was a teenager,some of my best friend or the,
I, I won't give them away, butthey had a VHS of porn and they
kept it in the box of theInspector Gadget movie.

Tom Ryan (39:11):
oh, classic.

And so they would always call Porn Inspector
Gadget.

Tom Ryan (39:17):
I love it.

And

Tom Ryan (39:19):
I might have to steal that

It's yours.
But so yeah, when I think ofInspector Gadget, I think of
porn

Tom Ryan (39:27):
immediately.
Yeah, that's reasonable.
When I think of math class, Ithink about various images from
the past.
It was a di honestly, it was adi and I tried.
So one of the, one of thechallenges of this story for me
was I didn't want it to be a YAnovel.
I wanted it to be an adultnovel.
The characters are in middleage, it's really, but I also
really wanted them to beconnected to the people they

(39:49):
were in the past.
So that's why I have that sortof prologue set back then.
But then once you get throughthe prologue at the very
beginning, which is set 25 yearsago.
Everything happens now, but Ineeded there to be these
moments, these touchstonesbetween the people they were in
the past and the people they arenow.
And that character Joey, he's,he was a computer nerd back in
school and he had the big beigecomputer and he goes back to his

(40:12):
childhood bedroom and it'ssitting in the corner.
It has the little plastic slipcover over it that he takes off
and he has this visceral momentof reconnecting with his younger
self as he sits down and he getsinto that sort of sense memory
of being at that computer.

Yeah.

Tom Ryan (40:25):
That he sat at as a kid.
And that was I actually reallyenjoyed those scenes where he
gets back into the, and he goesback into his old school hacker
mode.
And it was a way for me to bringthe teenage years back into the
present in a really physicalway.
So those were definitely funscenes to write.

I mean, It made me sad that I don't know where
that computer is from mychildhood.
I was like.

Tom Ryan (40:48):
Gadget tape.

That, who knows that I, that wasn't mine.
But the, yeah, I was like, oh,what would logging on be like
and what would I find?
And there are things that, Iwould save.
A OL instant messengerconversations.
And I would save JPEGs and Iwould save, and I wrote plays

(41:13):
and short stories like there, I,there's so much on that computer
that would it's its own timecapsule of

Tom Ryan (41:21):
It is.

and it's a shame that we've lost that chunk of
technology'cause we didn'treally know how to hold onto it.
I say shame, but plenty ofpeople are probably thrilled
that we've lost that chunk of

Tom Ryan (41:34):
Yeah, I mean we've gained a lot, but we've lost a
lot as well.
And I think it's, I feelfortunate to have grown up in
that period where we didn't haveany kind of internet or social
media, but I also experiencedthe kind of dawning off it
because it felt really magicalat the time when you were
connect a OL Messenger, MSNmessenger that You were
connecting with people on chat.
I remember IRC chat rooms and itjust felt it was really
rudimentary when you think aboutit now.

(41:55):
It was so old fashioned looking,but it.
Was at the time insane.
I remember chatting with gayguys.
I was probably 20 in my dormroom chatting with gay guys in
Iceland, being like, this isnuts.
I'm never gonna meet him.
So there's like a bit of safetyin this distance, but Wow.
And now it's, now it doesn'tmean anything.
There's no, it's just, it's allthere.

(42:16):
Everybody's there.
It's a big broad taken forgranted, mishmash.

There is a guy who I met in a Yahoo chat room
when I was probably 14.

Tom Ryan (42:28):
Yep.

He wasn't outta the closet.
He had a girlfriend and we likebecame buddies on a OL instant
mess.
We met in the chat room, then westarted chatting on instant
messenger.
And then I think, the dawn ofMySpace, we connected on
MySpace, the dawn of Facebook.
We connected on Facebook.
The dawn of text messaging, weconnected and we would text and
we've met in person one time

Tom Ryan (42:52):
Wow.

and we're still connected, but

Tom Ryan (42:56):
How do you how do you still use a OL messenger?
How do you chat?

Now we text,

Tom Ryan (43:01):
Yeah.

now we're texting

Tom Ryan (43:03):
kid.
I kid.

But it's funny, like I knew him, quote unquote
when he was closeted with agirlfriend in high school and
now he's married to a man withtwo children.
And it's fascinating, like justthe journey that we go on.

Tom Ryan (43:17):
For decades, and it's, those were the early days of
online friendships.
We didn't even know what washappening.
And now every, it's so old hat,everybody is connected online
and people, teens in particular,they just have access to this
giant world of TikTok andInstagram.
But back then it felt real.
And if you were a closeted queeryoung person, having access to

(43:39):
other closeted queer youngpeople, that you could have a
completely wide open.
Tell me about your experience.
So I can tell you about mine.
It was life changing.
Life saving in a lot of ways,

It's interesting that you say that because, I
think even now there are, we'reable to meet people through
social media and in, in moreunique ways than, you know,
meeting at school.
We're meeting in sort ofnon-traditional ways like we
were when we were younger.
And just even just yesterday Iwas, chatting with a, an

(44:11):
Instagram buddy who I only knowthrough the world of Instagram
about relationships and, he wasapologetic about.
Being so grim and only talkingabout the bad things happening
in his relationship.
And I was like, honestly, as gaymen, as humans in general, it is
so important that we haveconversations like this because

(44:31):
we're not, there are complicatedand difficult conversations and
to not feel alone on the journeyof life.
It's something we don't evenrealize how much we need and
that.
As a young gay person, findingthat solace in a chat room I
think makes that makes ithappening now less strange.

Tom Ryan (44:55):
Oh, totally.
Absolutely.
And I think I, yeah, and it's, Ithink we were also a bit less
guarded back then, or lesscontrived.
We were just, I remember justhaving these really open
conversations.
People now are, young people areit's such a sophisticated
approach to being online becausethe we've learned how to.
Present ourselves in a certainway.

(45:17):
Whereas in the past I get, I'msure you were kind, there was a
little bit of bs but it was

Oh sure.

Tom Ryan (45:21):
is me and this is you, but now it's a little bit more
of, there's a bit more artificeto it now, I think.

There's also like everyone knows that you can snap
a picture on your phone and sendit immediately, right?
Once upon a time in a chat roomor on a OL instant messenger.
That was, it was not thatsimple,

Tom Ryan (45:37):
yeah.

And if you had the digital camera, then you
could take a picture with thedigital camera, but then you had
to plug the camera into yourcomputer and upload it onto the
computer.
It like was a whole productionfor one picture and then Uhoh,
the file was corrupted.
So you need to do it again.

Tom Ryan (45:53):
yep.
It feels so innocent to me Nowwhen I think, and that is
something I tried to get, Ireally wanted to hit that year
2000, that Y 2K vibe In thisbook.

Really fun.

Tom Ryan (46:02):
I'm glad you picked up on the math class folder.

I had those folders.
I'm so now I like, see, I wish Iremember what they were labeled
as,'cause they were definitelysomething like math class.

Tom Ryan (46:16):
Yeah.

Okay.
I'm very curious to know whatwould your role be in solving a
crime?

Tom Ryan (46:23):
What would my I would not be the computer genius for
sure.
I am.
Of the three characters.
I, there was a point in, when Iwas writing this book where I
really very articulated, I wasbeing a little bit too cutesy
with it, where Sam was thestreet smart Alice was the
social smart, and Joey was thetech smart.
And I was like, this is justtoo, this is too cute by half.

(46:45):
But I think I'm not, I'mdefinitely not street smart.
I drop me in the middle of anycity, I will get lost.
I can't.
I can't do it, but I am, I thinkI'm pretty socially adept.
I like people and I think my jobwould be getting in and sliding
into a conversation withsomebody and getting clues by
getting to know them and reallyhaving those in real life
conversations that you were justtalking about.
Just really getting deep.

(47:06):
And I'm very much an open book.
You can ask me literallyanything, and I like to have
those conversations with otherpeople where I get tell me about
you.
'cause the most funconversations.
To me are the ones where I'mfinding out about somebody else
as opposed to, and I think maybethat's the writer in me.
I love to hear other people'sstories.
I love to hear where people grewup.
I love to hear about their, howmany siblings do you have?

(47:27):
Were you close with your, didyou have neighbor friends?
Where, what?
What's your house like?
I love that stuff.
And so I think that would be myskill as an investigator would
be just getting to know thecharacters and soft
interrogating.
I would be the good cop forsure.

That.
Listen, it's good to know yourskills and it's good to know
where you would slide in becausewho knows when the mystery will
be afoot.
Were you a Harriet this by fan?

Tom Ryan (47:52):
Oh my gosh, yes.
I have an original first edition

No way.

Tom Ryan (47:57):
Battered I found it at a thrift store.
It's a Canadian first edition,and it's beaten.
It's not an, it's not worthanything, but I have it.
I loved Harriet, the buy, lovedit.

That's really fun.
It has come up a handful oftimes as very queer coded as

Tom Ryan (48:11):
Yeah.
Oh yeah, I hear.
Yes, definitely.

just really fun and a lot of young gay men have
responded really deeply toHarriet, the Spy.
And like when I was a kid, Iremember having a speckled
notebook and just like observingthings and writing it down
because I found, the sociologyof it all.
So interesting.

Tom Ryan (48:27):
I have to show you this because I di I didn't know
if you would ask me about otherbooks, but have you read The
Little Friend?

I have not,

Tom Ryan (48:34):
unfortunately.
This is Donna Tart's secondbook.
She's only written three novels.
One is the Secret History.
Actually, these are backwards.
Sorry.
But,

no, they're not.
I see them just fine.

Tom Ryan (48:43):
Oh, you do?
Okay.
Secret History was her first bigbook.
Donna Tart wrote The Goldfinch.
She won a Pulitzer Prize.
Her first book was The SecretHistory, which she wrote when
she was at university.
She was at Bennington Collegeand she wrote it and she made a,
it was 1992 and it was a massivepublishing deal, and it was this
huge juggernaut book.
It's a great, it's one of myfavorite books.
And then The Goldfinch, and then10 years later she wrote, she

(49:05):
published The Secret History,and then 10 years after that was
The Goldfinch.
She's only written these threebooks.
One of them was a massive.
A young like a a story of out ofnowhere young writer does good.
Goldfinch won the PulitzerPrize, the Secret the Little
Friend.
Her second book is the one thatgets the least respect, but it's
my favorite and it's about ayoung detective and her name is

(49:28):
Harriet and she lives in a smalltown in the South, and it's
really good.
It's big and fat and dense andreally beautifully written, and
she's trying to solve themystery of her.
Her infant brother was murdered.
Her brother was murdered whenshe was an infant.
He was five.
And nobody ever discovered whatdid it.
So 10 years later, it's thesummer of her I think she's 11
or 12, and she's trying to solvethis murder and I'm convinced

(49:51):
that she's called Harriet as anhomage to Harriet the spy.
Who was The og.

I love that.
Oh, this is good to know.
Okay.
I have not read Donna Tart atall, so

Tom Ryan (50:00):
Oh, nothing.

start there.
I know I'm a late in life novelreader, so I missed Goldfinch,

Tom Ryan (50:07):
Yeah.

Hearing that, that mystery thing.
I will leave you with thisbecause when I asked you about,
are there any, mysteries in yourlife that come to mind?
I harken back to.
A wonderful podcast series thatonly had one season and I loved
it so much.
So I wanna shout it out.
But it's called Mystery Show

Tom Ryan (50:28):
With Starly kind,

with Starly Kind.

Tom Ryan (50:30):
so good.

And for listeners who have not heard about it, it
is basically these likenon-important mysteries in
someone's life that they likepitch to this woman and she sort
and she solves them.
And things like there's a beltbuckle that someone's
grandfather has always had andthey want to know where it came
from, or there was a.

(50:53):
A video store that justdisappeared overnight one day
and they want to know whathappened to the video store.
And someone wrote a novel thatdidn't do very well and Britney
Spears had it in her hand in aphoto.
And it's wait, why the hell didBritney Spears have this wasn't
Britney Spear.
I think it was

Tom Ryan (51:09):
It was Brittany.
Yeah.
Oh, a hundred percent.

these like super fun little mysteries that we
don't really think about.
I think a lot of us, when wethink of mysteries, we think of.
Murder,

Tom Ryan (51:21):
yep.
Yep.

But there could be a lot of fun little unsolved
mysteries.
So

Tom Ryan (51:24):
I

gets all for you.
It's so good.

Tom Ryan (51:28):
Yeah, it's a great, it's a great show and I think
that's the thing.
There is mystery all around usand the structure of the mystery
is always just built in andwe're used, we are, we're fine.
I think we're fine tuned ashumans to ask those questions
and go searching for thoseanswers.
So we're all detectives of thesort.

We are.
And everyone go get your copyof, we Had a Hunch.
It is fun and cozy and deliciousand you're gonna be on the edge
of your seat the whole timeuntil the very end.
Tom, have a wonderful rest ofyour day.
Thank you so much for beinghere.

Tom Ryan (51:57):
so much fun.
I had a great time.
Thanks a lot.

I love the pillow accoutrement you have behind
you.

Kim Chi (52:08):
Oh yeah.
I have a lot of random pillows.

Is that a loaf of bread, pillow?
Yes.
Where did that come from?

Kim Chi (52:16):
It was secret Santa Gift where?
White Elephant.
Yeah.
I picked the biggest thing andI'm like, oh, there's a loaf of
bread.

What did you hope it was gonna be?

Kim Chi (52:25):
I don't know.
I just tend to go for thebiggest things, just'cause like,
when it's all wrapped in thingsand I'm like, all right, like at
least it's not gonna be like alittle hand sanitizer or
something,

yeah.
No, that's very fair.
I feel like that was.
We're taught that as kids,right?
The biggest box has the besttoy.
And then as you get older youlearn that like the money comes
in.
Small packages.

Kim Chi (52:46):
packages.
Yeah, small, but then also smallpackages at White Elephant can
be very underwhelming.
Like sometimes there's just likea Starbucks gift card or like an
air tag, and I'm like, okay, Idon't, I'd rather take my chance
on something fun,

right.
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
I, went to my husband's office,white elephant years ago, and I
picked up a similarly shapeditem and it was it ended up
being a blanket from that likefancy Canadian company and I was
like, oh, this is the high end,this blanket.

Kim Chi (53:21):
I could Fancy it like wrapped in a circle?
And then there was like wrappingin the middle.

Maybe

Kim Chi (53:29):
cause was one year where like around holiday time
Costco carried pendulumblankets.
And then I saw so many of thoseblankets at a white elephant
too.

it's very possible that's what it was.
Oh my God, that's so funny.

Kim Chi (53:41):
And I didn't know when that I'm sounding such like a
white elephant snob.
Like I'm not at, not at all.

Are you invited to a lot of white elephants?
I feel like I haven't done onein a minute.

Kim Chi (53:52):
I love going to a, if I'm invited, I will go.
Like last year I went to onewhere there was like 60 people
there.
It was like the most intense,like white elephant that I've
ever Yeah.
I

There's.

Kim Chi (54:02):
yeah.
It's really interesting to seewhat people bring to these
things.

people bring and it's interesting to see the
strategy of the exchanging andwhat people do end up going for.
And you only get one or twoturn.
I don't know.
It's complicated, but you learna lot about someone

Kim Chi (54:18):
is true.

based on their white elephant gift they bring
and the gift they choose.
This is interesting.

Kim Chi (54:25):
I went to one where it's a bunch of like middle aged
Asians and I got a hold of LabuBoo.
This is like when Labu Boo crazywas its peak and everyone's like
trying to get one.
You

my

Kim Chi (54:35):
get one.
So I brought a Labu thinkinglike, oh, they're gonna eat this
up.
This gonna be the best gift.
Everyone's gonna steal this.
And not a single person in theroom knew what that was, and the
person that picked it and waslike, oh, it's a toy.
And he looked so offended and Iwas like.
I thought everyone would befighting for this Labu Boo, but
no one cared.

And then probably six months later everyone was
like, oh my God, I wish I tookthe Labu Boo.
I know.
Oh, that's so funny.
Kimchi, welcome to Gay'sReading.

Kim Chi (55:07):
Thank you.
I love to read in many ways.

yes.
Thank you for being my guest gayreader today.
And I feel like the firstquestion to ask, of course, is
what are you reading?
And that you could tell me allthe things in all the ways that
you're reading.

Kim Chi (55:22):
So I mean, I, I love to have like a physical copy of the
book and then I love reading,but then also because I live in
LA where I spend so much time intraffic, I also like listening
to audio books.
Just'cause you spend, like goinganywhere during rush hour, it's
going to be like an hour to golike three miles.
So

So what is something that you've listened
to recently that you've enjoyed?

Kim Chi (55:41):
Oh, so right now I'm reading like two things.
One is crying in H Mart and thenthe other one is, I'm laughing
because I'm crying by YoungmeMay.
I guess both themes of the bothbook is dealing with like
generational trauma is like anAsian American, and I'm just
like,

Do you need to talk about something?

Kim Chi (56:00):
those things are like hitting hard right now in this
like current political climate,

yeah.
Were you always a reader orlistener to books?

Kim Chi (56:08):
Yeah, I have actually been a reader all of my life.
So growing up our family wasvery poor.
So like during summertime, likea lot of kids will go to like
summer camp and things likethat.
I would just be at home.
And I'd.
Walk to the local publiclibrary.
And I spent all day there justlike reading and like using the

(56:30):
computer, checking out magazinesborrowing as many c as I can to
bring it into my computer athome.
And our public local libraryalso had a program where if you
read five books, they give you alittle voucher for bagel and
cream cheese that are shopnearby.
So I'd read like a mad personbecause like my.
My family wouldn't ever buy methose kind of like food things.

(56:52):
So then that was like the wayfor me to eat American food,

Oh wow.
Would you try to do that likeonce a week?

Kim Chi (57:00):
um, Multiple times a week.
There wasn't a limit, so I justread, I'd make sure read five
books in one day.

wow.
What a genius idea.

Kim Chi (57:09):
Right?

So do you still love bagels and cream cheese or
did that turn into a hate forbagel and cream

Kim Chi (57:15):
Oh no.
I love bagels and cream cheese,

What's your bagel order?

Kim Chi (57:19):
Ooh.
Okay.
So it depends on what city I'min.
If I'm in New

Yes.

Kim Chi (57:22):
Like bagels are gonna be like good no matter what, but
like in LA bagels aren't good.

No, in New York.
What's your New York bagelorder?

Kim Chi (57:29):
in New York I love a, if I'm in the mood for something
savory, I love an onion bagelwith garden veggie cream cheese.
And if I'm feeling somethinglike sweet, then I love a
blueberry bagel with plain creamcheese.
But then also I love a good likelock sandwich.
Like the locks, tomato, capers,onions, like the whole shebang.

(57:50):
Then when in la the, when theirbagels aren't good, but then you
go to these like specialty shopand everyone's doing these rip
and dip bagels.
Now, have you ever had one ofthose

What is a rip and dip bagel?

Kim Chi (57:59):
instead of like bagel cut in half and cream cheese on
it, you take like a whole bageland you like rip a piece and you
scoop the cream cheese.
This is like the whole liketrendy thing.
All the bagel chef they'redoing.
It makes sense if you like creamcheese.

Are the, is it a way to disguise a bagel that
isn't that good?

Kim Chi (58:18):
I don't know.
I think they're just trying tolike, make it like a,

Something fun?

Kim Chi (58:21):
something fun or maybe it's like a social media gimmick
because everyone's like rippingthese bagels and then just like
scooping up the cream cheesewith the ripped bagels.

Have you tried it yet?

Kim Chi (58:30):
Of course.
Yeah.
I'll try, you know, confessionsof a true fat ass.
It's good.
I'm someone who eat bagels so Ican eat cream cheese, bagels
merely a vessel and an excuse ifyou will.

That's so funny.
I feel like that's me withpeanut butter and jelly
sandwiches.
I would just eat like spoonfulsof both

Kim Chi (58:51):
know butter and jelly.

together.
But that's too much.
So

Kim Chi (58:56):
Then you must like Uncrustables.

I think I've become a peanut butter and jelly
snob.
So I think if Uncrustables weremade with high quality peanut
butter and preserves, then Itotally would.
But I can't just buy.
What is currently known as anuncrustable and

Kim Chi (59:15):
Okay.
But so mice thing where a goodpeanut butter is, like how it
doesn't, it's always so runny.
So like how do you procure thatin a solid peanut butter and
jelly?
Because like I, I love a goodlike fancy peanut butter too,
but it also has to hold likesynergy with the jelly

most.
Most of them you're supposed torefrigerate after opening,

Kim Chi (59:41):
Oh, are you?

firms it up a little.

Kim Chi (59:43):
Okay.

Yeah.
And I recently looked into thisbecause I left peanut butter out
one day without putting it inthe fridge, and Google said that
it slows down the like processof breaking down of the oils,
breaking down.
To keep it fresher longer, butlike leaving it out won't make

(01:00:08):
it go bad.
It just would make it it, itleave putting it in the fridge,
prolongs its life.

Kim Chi (01:00:15):
Okay.
I

Jason Blitman (01:00:16):
So you can leave it out,

Kim Chi (01:00:17):
Okay.

but the fridge firms it up a little.
But then, okay, here's a hottip.
It, if it's too firm, it's hardto spread.
So if you toast the bread alittle bit.

Kim Chi (01:00:29):
And it gets a little melty and ooey

bit melty and it makes it a little easier to
spread.
It still holds and isspreadable.
Anyway, that's my P-B-J-P-S-A.

Kim Chi (01:00:39):
Okay.
Obviously like I I just lovetalking about food,

yeah, of course.
Before

Kim Chi (01:00:45):
why I have a cookbook coming

yes, I know.
Before we talk about your book,I have to know if this chapter
of your life had a title.
What would that be?

Kim Chi (01:00:55):
right now,

Yeah.
The life that the chapter ofyour life that you're in right
now.

Kim Chi (01:01:00):
Right now.
Right now, currently, it justfeels like trying to survive.
While preserving my mentalhealth, I, every day I log into
social media and then I just seelike awful news.
But then also I can't deletesocial media because like my
work evolves around like doing alot of things on social media.
So it's like a double-edgedsword where like I'm forced to

(01:01:21):
be on these things, but thenalso like I have to navigate
this medium in a way where Idon't like spiral, just reading
bad news over and over.
So right now, survive is theword that I would use.

obsessed.
I know it's unfortunate, but Ifeel like that's, we're all in
that together.
But on Happier note, let's talkabout your cookbook.

Kim Chi (01:01:47):
Yes, Kim cheats the world.

Eats the World, which when this episode airs is
out now, wherever you get yourbooks 75 recipes fit for a drag
queen.
How did a cookbook come to befor you?

Kim Chi (01:02:02):
So I guess the whole idea started during pandemic.
So for my work, I tore aroundthe world and I get to eat like
amazing, like delicious cuisinefrom all over the world, which
I'm like, which is like the bestpart of the job for me.
And when the pandemic happenedand I wasn't traveling, and I'm
like, i'm like craving this dishfrom like Peru.
And obviously like a lot of therestaurants weren't open either,

(01:02:25):
like in Los Angeles.
I'm like I guess I'm just gonnahave to like, recreate these
dishes at home using likeAmerican kitchen, like
ingredients, or like ingredientsthat I can find in like American
grocery stores.
So then I just started cookingall these like global dishes at
home and I'm like.
There's so much like beauty inlike global cuisine, so
hopefully like maybe I canintroduce them to the audience

(01:02:47):
to recreate those dishes athome.
Maybe like it'll spark likepeople's interest in like global
cuisine too, because there's somuch to like life outside of
like chicken tenders and pizza.

That is very true.
You call yourself a culinaryconnoisseur from a very young
age.
How did food become important toyou?

Kim Chi (01:03:10):
So I guess growing up in both like America and Korea
and then being able to tastefood from like different
cultures and having likegrandparents and parents who are
like very passionate about food.
It has opened my eyes to likethe world of the culinary
delights and also like I amsomeone who constantly needs new
stimulation.

(01:03:31):
And that stimulation includeslike trying new flavors, fla and
textures and things like that.
So even since I was young, Iwould save what little money I
had and then I'd check out like.
If there's ethnic cuisine that Ihaven't tried before, like I
have to go taste it.
So like I save my allowance andtake myself like to the Thai
restaurant in my town.

(01:03:51):
When the Ethiopia restaurantopened up in town, like I had to
go and try it.
When my friend told me about anIndian restaurant, that was like
opening up.
And I think that's how like mylevel of global cuisine got
started Just.
Finding like new restaurantsthat serve like a whole world of
flavors that I've neverexperienced before.
And I'm still same way in likein LA too, where we have like

(01:04:11):
food from like all over theworld here.
If there's a cuisine I haven'ttried I'd get out my friends,
like, all right, I'm gonna gotry Cambodian food today.
Who wants to go with me?
All right, I'm gonna try likefood from like Nepal, like who

you.
You are the friend to text whensomeone wants to go to a
restaurant.

Kim Chi (01:04:28):
It is true.
Yeah.

I, my husband is a recent vegetarian and it, the
only reason why that's a bummerfor me is because we would go to
restaurants and in order to trythe most things, we would share
a bunch of stuff.
And so we don't really do thattoo much anymore.
So instead I have my list offriends who I know are like,
always game to just share abunch of things and try

(01:04:51):
whatever.
So next time you're in town,I'll know to reach out to you.
We can go try all the things.

Kim Chi (01:04:56):
Yes, please.
I would love that.
And also like when it comes tolike Asian cuisine, like eating
vegetarian is relatively easy,but then also the same time when
you like wanna make asubstitution in like a lot of
these places, like a lot ofplaces just don't like fuck with
And on top of that, even whenyou order like a vegetable dish,
there could be like a hiddenpork somewhere.

(01:05:16):
And on the other,

I love the hidden pork, but not everyone does.

Kim Chi (01:05:20):
But then on the other end, like when you go to a
Western restaurant, sometimeslike a vegetarian option will be
like pasta or oh, here's a pieceof grilled mushroom.
So you know, vegetarians, I hearyou.
I feel for you.

I know.
But you're right.
A lot of Asian cuisine, a lot ofMediterranean cuisine.
Very solid vegetarian options.
Yes.
Such good

Kim Chi (01:05:40):
Vegetarian Indian cuisine, sex kiss.
Yes.

Okay.
Yeah.
It's not terrible.

Kim Chi (01:05:47):
I guess you're just not going to the right

I know.
No.
We are.
I just like giving my husband ahard time.
Okay.
Your persona, your drag name isof course, kimchi.
You have a recipe for kimchi inthe book.
What does.
What does kimchi, as a feelingmean to you?
Where did the name come from?
I didn't know that you couldkimchi anything.

(01:06:10):
I didn't realize that it wasn'tjust you or cabbage until the
book now I know.

Kim Chi (01:06:15):
So Kim, just the National Dish of Korea and
Korea's a country where fourseasons are very distinct, so
summer's gonna be really hot andwinter's gonna be really cold
and.
To eat vegetables Duringwintertime, they started
pickling vegetables.
It's common in Korea, not inlike the modern times, but back

(01:06:38):
in the day during fall when it'slike cabbage season all the
families would gather like largeamounts and everyone would just
pickle like large amounts oflike cabbage.
And that'll last the entire yearto the next fall.

Oh wow.

Kim Chi (01:06:53):
So I was like, if I'm picking a drag name, I need to
pick something that soundsfeminine, but also represents my
culture.
And kimchi seemed like the rightfit.

Yes.
And you are the national dish

Kim Chi (01:07:05):
yes.
Hopefully the National Korea.
So the kimchi recipe in the bookis a tomato, kimchi.
If I have a tomato paintingbehind

Oh, yes, you do.

Kim Chi (01:07:15):
I love tomatoes, but also there's a lot of kimchi
recipes out there, andtraditionally kimchi is very
like time consuming.
But I want to just do a littlequick kimchi recipe in there and
like a familiar ingredient.
Everyone becomes like familiarwith the idea of kimchi and
kimchi doesn't have to be hardand difficult.
It can be quick, simple,flavorful, and healthy.
So what, kimchi is alwayshealthy,

Glamorous, fabulous, right?
Kimchi give you all sorts ofthings.

Kim Chi (01:07:39):
yeah.
Spicy

it's a set, it's a mindset,

Kim Chi (01:07:42):
Kim choose a feeling.

right?
Exactly.

Kim Chi (01:07:44):
It's pungent.
It's full of probiotics.

Yes.
Oh

Kim Chi (01:07:49):
gonna be pooping.

So healthy, oh my God.
The pictures in the book are sofun.
I am so excited to cook thingsfrom this.
I I'm curious if, for thelistener who is.
Who is flavor curious, who isnervous about trying Korean
food?
Who is maybe not into spicythings or fermented things?

(01:08:12):
What, where would you say is agood place to start?

Kim Chi (01:08:15):
I feel like Korean cuisine has become more like the
least like intimidating likecuisine to try in US right now
with the popularization of likeK-pop and K drama and like just
Korean media in general.
There's so many koreanrestaurant's been popping all
over, like the nation.
And if you're like picky and ifyou're, if you like, don't
handle like those kind of foodthere's so many dishes that you

(01:08:37):
can get into like duck forexample, which is like a rice
cake.

Te is so

Kim Chi (01:08:41):
sauce and you can load it up with cheese and noodles
and sausages.
Korean hotdog is also a goodone, which is also, there's a
recipe for it in the book.
It's like a cheesy hotdog, likecovered with like sugar and
whatever sauce you put onketchup, mustard.
Yeah.
There's plenty of Korean dishes.
You just have to be in a mindsetto open your heart up and let it

(01:09:03):
in.

Open your heart, your mouth, your belly.
Exactly.
Okay, we have to quickly segueto, you are taking over the
world this year because we alsohave donut achi.

Kim Chi (01:09:17):
And the library vendors?

The library Avengers, which is your your
young adult novel coming outlike you are a font of content
kimchi.
Tell us, tell the people what isthis book about?

Kim Chi (01:09:34):
All right.
It is loosely based on my life,but it's also very fantastical.
As I mentioned previously, thepublic libraries are very
important to me.
And one day I was reading abouthow a lot of the public
libraries are getting defundedbecause a lot of people don't
feel like libraries are animportant resource in their
town.
And that made me really upset.
So I tweeted about how much thepublic libraries meant to me and

(01:09:55):
my experience with the library.
And then that tweet ended upgoing viral, especially among
the library community.
And librarians from all over theworld were reaching out to me
saying, thank you for speakingup for us.
No one ever speaks up for thelibrarians.
And then a publisher reached outto me saying, do you wanna write
a novel about saving the publiclibrary?

(01:10:15):
So it's a story about a KoreanAmerican kid who's, queer and
the mayor wants to demolish thelocal library to build a swanky
mall.
Him and the library Avengersbasically.
Set on a journey to save thepublic, local library.

Ugh.
I

Kim Chi (01:10:35):
And hopefully like maybe this book can inspire
other children in the future,you know, to be accepting of
themselves and also love thelibraries as much as I did.

Della Hamachi and the Library Avengers is also out
an hour if you get your books.
You obviously loved the libraryso much.
As a kid, you read so much toget your bagels and cream
cheese.
Are, is there a book that youremember from your childhood or
even recently that really had animpact on you?

Kim Chi (01:11:04):
So all the works of Royal Doll especially like
Charlie, the Chocolate Factoryagain, food themed,

yes.
Yes.

Kim Chi (01:11:13):
but the world is like so imaginative too, like all the
squirrels, like peeling like thenuts to like the little crazy
world with the mpa, lupas andlike the little like chocolate
river.
This is before I even saw likeany movie and things like that.
I'd read that book over and overagain.
Just imagining like what abeautiful world it will be to be
able to visit a factory justfull of these like sweet trees

(01:11:35):
and magical.
And then I also love the work,the Beverly, clearly, like

The Ramona Quimbee books

Kim Chi (01:11:46):
EE and all those.
Yeah.
I guess because I didn't, thatwas like a life that I didn't
grow up in, as like a kid whojust stayed in my room and
things like that.
I'm just like, oh, so this islike what, like an average
American kid like, grows up tobe,

yeah, as you're looking over the page eating
your bagel,

Kim Chi (01:12:02):
Yes, exactly.

Oh yeah.
It's the rolled doll books were,I think, super transformative
for a lot of people Yeah,Beverly Cleary too.
I remember reading all of thoseas a kid and I has such an
impact.
Kimchi eats the World Cookbookis out now.
Donut Tele and the LibraryAvengers also out.
Now.
You have so much contenteveryone can find you online, on

(01:12:26):
social media.
Much to our chagrin that we haveto be there, but we are there.
Anything else to share with thepeople about your books, about
your life, about anything

Kim Chi (01:12:35):
Yeah, please support my books because especially in
times like this, it means a lotto have queer literature

Yes.

Kim Chi (01:12:42):
and you know, like queer authors, you know.

amazing.
Thank you for being here.

Kim Chi (01:12:47):
thank you so much for having me.
Oh my god, I've been having somuch fun just chatting with you.

I'm so glad.
Tom Kimchi.
Thank you both so much for beinghere.
Everyone, have a wonderful restof your day and I will see you
next week.
Bye

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.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

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Crime Junkie

All Episodes

Tom Ryan (We Had a Hunch) feat. Kim Chi, Guest Gay Reader

Stuff You Should Know