September 26, 2025 • 38 mins
Get ready to add to your ever-growing TBR (we're sorry!) because Gays Reading is kicking off the new series What Are You Reading?. On this episode, host Jason Blitman talks to Sarah Dickinson, host of Sarah's Bookshelves Live, about some of the books she's been reading recently.
Sarah’s Bookshelves Live is a weekly book podcast featuring real talk about books and recommendations from a featured bookish guest.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Gaze reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what, andwhy.
Anyone can listen.
Comes we're spoiler free Readingfrom politic stars to book club
picks where the curious mindscan get their picks.
So you say you're not gay.
(00:24):
Well that's okay.
There's something for everyone.
Gays rating.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (00:34):
Hello and welcome to Gay's Reading and
this super special episode ofWhat Are You Reading With the
one and only Sarah Dickinson,the host of Sarah's Bookshelves
Live, which I imagine being anall capitals with an exclamation
point for some reason, andsparkly lights.
Not only is Sarah here to talkto me about what she's currently
(00:56):
reading, but we're gonna do soin the Sarah's bookshelves live
way.
Welcome Sarah to Gay's Reading.
Sarah Dickerson (01:04):
Thank you so much for having me.
Am I a one and only?
That's like a pretty big deal.
I've never been called the oneand only before.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (01:12):
the, hello?
Sarah's bookshelves live.
It's like Disney on Ice Live.
Sarah Dickerson (01:17):
That's because it was a blog before.
It was a podcast, and mostpeople don't even know that
because that was so long ago.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2 (01:25):
Listen, I am a good reader and I use my
context clues and madeassumptions about that,
Sarah Dickerson (01:30):
Yes.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (01:31):
once just Sarah's bookshelves.
Sarah Dickerson (01:32):
the blog was Sarah's bookshelves when we
started the podcast.
We tacked on live
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (01:37):
Yes.
So fun.
When I actually first startedlistening to you, I thought that
the episodes might have beenliterally live,
Sarah Dickerson (01:44):
Oh, really?
Oh no.
We're not that live.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (01:47):
No.
Live ish.
Sarah Dickerson (01:48):
That would take a whole nother skill set that I
don't think I have.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (01:51):
Yeah.
No.
Interesting though.
And scary.
So maybe one day
Sarah Dickerson (01:56):
We shall see.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (01:57):
I've thought about hosting like an
actual radio show and I waslike, I don't know that I'd be
able to do that.
Sarah Dickerson (02:04):
I think that sounds really difficult.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (02:07):
Yeah.
Sarah Dickerson (02:07):
I definitely rely on the editing and
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (02:10):
not just relying on editing.
I would be nervous of havingsomething to say always.
Sarah Dickerson (02:14):
And you can't edit out that long pause.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (02:16):
No.
And you're like, oh, someone isdriving and they're listening to
you
Sarah Dickerson (02:21):
Yes, absolutely.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2 (02:22):
anyway, so I'm on a journey.
Sarah, how are you today?
I.
Sarah Dickerson (02:26):
I am doing well today.
Thank you.
How are you?
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (02:29):
I'm pretty good hanging in lots of,
I feel like I'm surrounded bybooks, which is perfect for
Sarah Dickerson (02:34):
I can see them around you.
I have no books behind me'causeI'm not normally on video.
And sorry you guys, I have amic, like whatever this thing is
called in my, a pop filter in myface and there are no books
behind me.
'cause this is my guest room andthe
jason-blitman_1_09-11 (02:48):
honestly, I'm honored because I know that
you don't do your podcast oncamera, and so I this is a, this
is like a special, uniqueinsider scoop into you.
I can't I love it.
Sarah Dickerson (02:59):
I hope I can remember that I'm on camera.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_12 (03:02):
I know.
But we're in this together.
So can you tell my listeners whomay or may not have listened to
Sarah's bookshelves Live before?
What is the Sarah's BookshelvesLive way?
What is your brand that we aregonna dive into a little bit
today?
How do, what do you, when youtalk to people about what
they're reading, what do youask?
Sarah Dickerson (03:20):
When I talk to, first of all, my brand I would
say, is like when you firstpress play on my podcast
episode, we have a little, introand it says getting real and
sometimes snarky about books andreading.
So we always share our realopinions.
We do talk about books we don'tlike.
Sometimes we're a little bitsnarky.
(03:41):
I try to always be constructiveand concrete when I talk about a
book I don't like, but.
I do.
I do a lot of different kinds ofepisodes.
I have two co-hosts, Catherineand Susie, who join me for many
episodes now.
It didn't used to be that way,but intermixed with Catherine
and Susie.
I have other guests from thepublishing industry where we
(04:02):
will go behind the scenes ofdifferent corners of the book
world.
I have other sort of indiebooksellers that come on, and
then I also have some authorinterviews.
Not as many as you have.
But I used to do a ton of otherinterviews, and I do probably
anywhere from four to seven ayear right now.
I would say the kinds of thingsthat I like to talk to my guests
about.
(04:22):
I love to go behind the scenesof whatever I'm talking about.
So if it's an author, the storybehind the book, the story
behind that author's publishingjourney, if I'm talking to
somebody from the book world, Iwant the behind the scenes scoop
on their job.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (04:37):
Yeah.
I love that.
And I love, we're like, I feellike you're my sister in
podcasting.
Sarah Dickerson (04:42):
Oh, I love it.
I'll be your sister any day.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (04:44):
Yes.
Okay.
Not this is a unique episode ofWhat are you reading?
Because I'm not just gonnasimply ask you what are you
reading, but I'm gonna ask youwhat you're reading in the
Sarah's bookshelves Live Waywhich is, of course two new
books that you love, two oldbooks that you love, a book that
you didn't love, and a book thatyou're looking forward to.
Where did that structure comefrom for you?
Sarah Dickerson (05:06):
Originally we were, this is way back, but the
original idea for the show wasto have other like book
influencers on to talk aboutwhat they were reading.
So we were like, let's put insome sort of structure and we
wanted.
It was more like, how do we fitin all these different types of
books that we want to fit intoan episode.
(05:28):
So we know that people like tohear about backlist books.
So those are our old books.
We know people love to hearabout upcoming releases.
So that's our upcoming releasewe're excited about.
We like to talk about new booksbecause that's a lot of what
we're reading.
And in keeping with the Sarah'sbookshelves brand of always
being truthful and honest aboutour opinions about books, we
needed to talk about a book wedid not like.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (05:50):
Yeah.
Which really stressed me out onyour show, but I did
Sarah Dickerson (05:52):
You
jason-blitman_1_09- (05:53):
persevered.
Sarah Dickerson (05:54):
Can you imagine if you were stressed?
The authors that come on, theyare super stressed.
They try to either totally dodgethat question and I allow them
to, if they are not comfortable,but also they will cheat and
maybe pick a classic.
The author's Long dead, which isa good way to get around it.
Some will say, look, this is agreat book, but it's just not
(06:14):
for my personal taste, which isalso.
Honestly, I think that is thebottom line about books you
don't like.
There are a million differentkinds of reading tastes out
there.
There is a book for everybody.
There's probably a person outthere in the world that likes
every single book out there.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (06:30):
Yeah, just before we hit record, we
were talking about a book that Iloved and you didn't love.
Sarah Dickerson (06:35):
Exactly.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (06:36):
and here we are.
Sarah Dickerson (06:37):
That on the
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_1 (06:38):
no we are not.
Sarah Dickerson (06:40):
Okay.
All right.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_1 (06:41):
So all of that said, so what are
the old books that you love?
Sarah Dickerson (06:44):
The first old book I love and I'm gonna talk
about, I'm gonna try the bestthat I can to talk about these
in keeping with the style thatyou talk about books in on your
show.
Like Vibes First,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (06:55):
Yes.
Sarah Dickerson (06:56):
So I read this novel in 2023, which was about a
year after it was published, andI had not heard much about it in
the year that it had been out,and I still haven't heard much
about it, but I loved it.
And it's called Like A House onFire by Lauren McBrayer.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (07:12):
Yeah.
Sarah Dickerson (07:13):
It is a story about a married mother of two
who returns to her career afterfeeling stuck in her life, and
she develops a really intenserelationship with her new female
boss, which changes her life.
This is a very intense characterdriven love story between two
women and I personally, you knowthis'cause you listen to my
(07:35):
show, but for your listeners whoare new to me, I think a love
story is very different than aromance.
This is not a romance novel likeby any means,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (07:46):
Oh, I, this is not, this was not on
my radar at all.
Sarah Dickerson (07:49):
Hey, you had never heard of this.
Oh, okay.
That makes me happy.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_1 (07:54):
So when I saw it come to learn
about it.
Sarah Dickerson (07:56):
the focus here is about the emotional
connection between these twowomen.
It's very intense.
There are some sort of torridand breathless scenes, but
that's not the crux of thestory.
It's really about a woman who.
For most of her life has carriedthe load for all the people
around her, like many women do.
(08:17):
And she finally meets someonewho sees straight through to
what she needs and what shewants and what she's going
through.
And it's also about finding justyour person in life, regardless
of whether that person is thegender that you thought you were
attracted to your entire life.
Like our main character hadnever considered herself to be a
(08:37):
gay woman.
And this couple reminded me ofGlennon Doyle and Abby Womac.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (08:43):
Yes.
Sarah Dickerson (08:44):
Yes.
And I listened to their podcastand I, the whole time I was
reading, I was like, oh my gosh,this is like Glennon and Abby on
the page.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (08:51):
Oh, how interesting.
I know.
I need to check that out.
Sarah Dickerson (08:54):
what?
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_12 (08:55):
I have to check it out.
I'm so
Sarah Dickerson (08:56):
Oh, I thought you said we have to take that
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (08:58):
no.
I have to check it out.
Sarah Dickerson (09:00):
Oh, you don't listen to Glennon and Abby's
podcast?
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (09:02):
No.
Sarah Dickerson (09:04):
it's, we can do hard things.
It's so good.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (09:06):
Okay.
Sarah Dickerson (09:07):
But when I finished the book, the really
interesting part about this wasI googled around'cause I like to
do that sometimes.
I like to go behind the scenesof the book, as I mentioned.
And there was an article inVogue written by the author
Lauren McBrayer, and she talksabout how this book started out
as a quote, meditation on genderdynamics in a heteronormative
(09:27):
marriage.
But it turned into somethingelse entirely.
During her writing process, sherealized her own marriage was
falling apart and her agentpressed her if the stuff in the
book did this really happen?
And she said not literally, butthe emotional core of the book
is true.
So it's very much based on herreal life and.
(09:49):
If you wanna read it, and if youare sensitive to spoilers like I
am, wait until after you readthe book, before you Google this
Vogue article, because it doesgive away the ending.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (09:58):
Oh, good to know.
Okay.
Sarah Dickerson (10:00):
I do not like to be spoiled.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_1 (10:03):
me either.
We are very spoiler free ongay's reading.
Says the theme song.
Sarah Dickerson (10:08):
Like a House on fire by Lauren McBrayer.
If you have not read it yet,it's so good and it's very under
the radar.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (10:14):
There is a book coming out in, at the
end of September that I won'tsay what it is on the air
because it is going to be myNovember gaze reading book Club
pick through Altoa.
But it ha, it has like a.
Some similar vibes to whatyou're saying, and I am excited
(10:36):
to share more with you.
Sarah Dickerson (10:37):
okay.
You have to tell me so I can gorequest the galley after.
After we get off the air.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (10:40):
Yes, I will.
All so what is your other oldbook that
Sarah Dickerson (10:43):
So my second old book is a five star read,
and it was one of my favoritebooks of 2021, the year it came
out, and it's the final revivalof Opal and Nev by Donnie
Walton.
Have you read this book?
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_12 (10:56):
I have.
Sarah Dickerson (10:57):
You have?
Okay.
It was, it's a debut.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_12 (11:00):
I loved it.
Sarah Dickerson (11:01):
Oh, good.
I loved it too.
And it's an oral history, butit's fictional and I am a sucker
for oral histories.
Fictional or nonfiction,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_12 (11:09):
I have a really hot take about
this book.
Sarah Dickerson (11:11):
oh my gosh.
Okay.
Do you want me to do
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (11:13):
Yes.
Do your spiel for
Sarah Dickerson (11:14):
and then you do
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (11:15):
yeah.
Sarah Dickerson (11:15):
Okay.
Now you have me really curious.
So it's a fictional oralhistory.
It's set in the 1970s musicworld and a present day
journalist investigates thestory behind an iconic
photograph of the Interrainterracial rock duo, Opal and
Nev.
And the photograph was taken ata concert, at a riot, at a
concert in the 1970s.
(11:38):
I love the oral history formatbecause I feel like it gives
stories, a very sort ofdelicious, gossipy feel.
It allows for a lot ofspeculation about motives, and
that is a lot of what the storyis.
It's like a darker, grittier,less escapist version of Daisy
Jones in the six, oh.
(12:00):
What,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-20 (12:01):
That's connected to my hot
Sarah Dickerson (12:03):
okay.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (12:04):
Keep going.
Sarah Dickerson (12:04):
All right, good.
All right.
We'll put a pin in that.
And what happened was thisiconic photograph took on a life
of its own following the riot atthe Rivington Showcase, which
was the concert.
And the journalist examines howso many people dissected this
photograph to mean so manydifferent things, and they
projected a lot of very deepmeaning onto it.
(12:28):
Some political, some not, and.
She goes into was all of thisintended did the people in the
photograph intend to disseminatethese messages that a lot of the
people viewing the photographwere projecting onto it?
And we do also get, of course,get the broader behind the
scenes story of the rise andfall of and of the rise and the
(12:48):
eventual breakup of Opal and Devas a rock duo.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (12:52):
Yeah.
Sarah Dickerson (12:53):
Opal is the most amazing character.
She is memorable.
She's singular.
I ne had never read anyone likeher before.
She's extremely provocative, yetalso really vulnerable, and
she's funky.
She's like creatively andstylistically funky.
I.
And there are these editor'snotes at the, oh sorry.
There are these editor's notesthat are like injected
(13:14):
throughout the story kind ofmixing in the journalist own
journey as she's learning thedetails behind this photograph.
And again, going back to behindthe scenes of this fair felt
very Ooh, we're getting thebehind the scenes scoop even
though it's fictional, right?
It's the kind of book that liketricks your brain into thinking
you're reading about a realband, which also Daisy Jones and
(13:35):
the sixth did for me
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (13:36):
Yeah, the amount of Googling to see
Sarah Dickerson (13:39):
Oh yeah.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (13:40):
was a lot
Sarah Dickerson (13:41):
And then is there anyone it could be based
on,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (13:43):
yeah,
Sarah Dickerson (13:45):
all right.
I wanna hear your hot take.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_1 (13:46):
so I read Oprah and Nev first
Sarah Dickerson (13:50):
Oh, okay.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_12 (13:53):
I read Daisy Jones.
Sarah Dickerson (13:54):
Interesting.
Okay.
I had read them in the reverse
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (13:56):
Yes.
Which I think is how most peopledid.
'cause that's the order in whichthey came out.
But I read Al and Nev first andthen read Daisy Jones and was
like, what is this watered downgarbage version of Al and Nev?
Which like obviously isn't true,but it made me sad because I
think Al and Nev is so grittyand so It's just.
(14:18):
It more interesting, for lack ofa better word, there's
Sarah Dickerson (14:21):
It's deeper.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (14:22):
the stakes are higher, right?
And it's deeper.
And so for me, when I read DaisyJones, I was like, what?
Sarah Dickerson (14:29):
So to me, Daisy Jones felt like this sort of fun
romp, even though there are somekind of dark things in there.
And Opal and Dev did not feellike a fun romp.
It was like intense and
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (14:40):
And it was like a real story, like
you,
Sarah Dickerson (14:41):
but I kept turning those pages
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (14:43):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
So that's my hot take is thatI'm sad that I feel like it got
overshadowed by Daisy Jones, butit's like the better version of
a similar story.
Sarah Dickerson (14:54):
I agree and I am glad I read them in the order
that I did, because I rated bothof them five stars,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (15:00):
Oh, that's so interesting.
Sarah Dickerson (15:02):
I didn't ruin my reading experience of Daisy
Jones.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (15:05):
And that's such an interesting just
like.
Thought exercise on contextmattering.
Sarah Dickerson (15:10):
Oh, a hundred percent.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (15:11):
There was this book that I loved
recently that another, that abookstagram wrote to me about
that she really didn't like.
And she said, to be fair, I hadjust read a book that was a five
star read for me.
I loved it so much.
I'd never read anything like it.
So then when I read this otherbook, I was super disappointed.
And I said, that's funny becausefor me, I had just come off of a
(15:32):
book that ID nfd.
Sarah Dickerson (15:35):
Yeah, that matters.
And especially if the two bookshave similarities.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (15:39):
Yeah.
Sarah Dickerson (15:40):
I always, after a five star read, I always try
to go in a totally differentdirection from a
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (15:45):
good for you.
That's so smart.
Sarah Dickerson (15:47):
oftentimes fiction to nonfiction or vice
versa.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (15:50):
Yeah.
So that's the final revival ofOpal and Nev.
Yes.
Loved.
Okay.
What now we're onto new books.
Sarah Dickerson (16:00):
yes.
We're on to new books and.
You are getting an exclusive.
Both the new books I'm sharingtoday, I have not actually
talked about on my own show
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (16:09):
Oh,
Sarah Dickerson (16:09):
yet, and
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (16:11):
hot off the press.
Sarah Dickerson (16:12):
I know.
This first one I'm not going totalk about on my own show.
It is getting so much buzz.
It was an Oprah pick thissummer, but my co-host Catherine
read it and already talked aboutit on the show.
So I now can't bring it back.
Unless I have a differentopinion, which I don't.
So I'm really glad to be able totalk about it here'cause I did
love it.
(16:32):
It is culpability by BruceHolsinger and.
Culpability is a story about howan upper middle class family is
impacted by ai and it kicks offwith a car crash involving a
self-driving car that's poweredby ai.
And that's all I'm gonna tellyou about the plot.
First of all, like I got so manyemail pitches this calendar year
(16:57):
for novels about ai, and I'vebeen allergic to them.
I've been like delete, delete,except this one.
And the reason that I.
Made an exception here is that Iloved Holsinger novel, the
Displacement, Was his last book,and I heard that culpability
read more like a family dramathan an AI book, which is up my
alley.
(17:18):
And I would agree, I thinkculpability very much reads like
a family drama and it's reallyabout the human impact of ai,
like the very real world humanconsequences for relatable
people.
About AI's involvement in theirlife.
It's exactly the kind of bookthat you talked about loving.
(17:38):
When you came on my show, yousaid you used this analogy that
I loved, and I'm sure youalready know what I'm gonna say,
but it's a book that feels likeyou're eating substantive and
nourishing food, but it's alsofood that's really easy to eat.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (17:54):
Yeah.
Sarah Dickerson (17:55):
The filet mignon that you can cut with a
butter knife and like it dealswith thought provoking, it deals
with cut that out.
Obviously
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (18:03):
Yeah.
Sarah Dickerson (18:04):
it deals with thought provoking topics, but
it's super accessible and easyto read and I flew through It
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (18:10):
It's everywhere.
And
Sarah Dickerson (18:12):
is
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (18:12):
not, I haven't picked it up, so I'm,
this is, you have sold theculpability to me.
Sarah Dickerson (18:18):
Oh good.
I'm not done yet.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (18:19):
I'm bring it on.
Sarah Dickerson (18:21):
It's reminded me a little bit of Lori Frankl.
This is How it always is.
Have you read that?
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (18:27):
No, but I read her other book.
Sarah Dickerson (18:31):
This is a couple books ago for her and it,
I would say it's her most wellknown, but it's about this
regular family who has a veryyoung child for who from a very
young age knows is transgender.
And so it's about the wholefamily going through that
situation and experiencing thatand the way that they, these two
(18:52):
books feel similar to me.
Culpability is not about atransgender person at all, but
it's a very relatable familythat I could picture myself
being a part of, and they'redealing with a situation that
many people have notexperienced, but totally could
experience.
And it asks big questions aboutthe intersection of technology
and morality, and of courseculpability.
(19:15):
It's like an examination ofclass and privilege, not only
wealth based privilege, but likewhite male star athlete
privilege, which I think istotally a thing.
My caveat, and Catherine, mycohost who read this first
warned me about it and she wasright.
She told me to skip theepilogue.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (19:37):
What?
Sarah Dickerson (19:37):
Yes.
She said it was so bad it took ahalf star off the book for her.
And I don't generally loveepilogues anyway, but okay.
So what she did was make me thencurious,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_1 (19:49):
of course.
Sarah Dickerson (19:50):
So I did not skip the epilogue.
I read the epilogue, but in myhead I was like, I'm not gonna
rate the book based on theepilogue.
I'm gonna pretend that the endof the book is the end of the
book.
And I did agree with her.
The epilogue just took the windoutta the sails.
There's at the end of the book,like my jaw was on the floor and
the epilogue just tempered allthat emotion.
jason-blitman_1_09 (20:10):
Interesting.
Sarah Dickerson (20:11):
In the book with my jaw on the floor,
please.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (20:14):
This is so funny, this comparison
that I'm about to make, but Iwatch a lot of Project Runway
and the amount of times thatsomething like styling will
affect a judgment.
The outfit is amazing, but thenthey like.
Also had a jacket on, and thenat the judging station, they're
like, take the jacket off.
(20:35):
And they're like, see, if itdidn't have the jacket, it
would've won.
And so that's what this sort offeels like.
It's, it's the perfect outfitcome, the ending and then they
tacked on a little more.
Sarah Dickerson (20:46):
It feels like to me sometimes publishers, and
I could be wrong.
I don't know the order of howthe epilogues get put in, right?
But I feel like an authorprobably ends a book at the end
of the book and the publishercomes in and is oh, people are
gonna think that's too openended.
We need to wrap things up in atidy bow, you gotta put in an
epilogue.
And that annoys me to kingdomcome.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (21:07):
This is very interesting that you're
bringing this up because I, andI know that.
You're not saying that as factof what happened with
culpability.
Sarah Dickerson (21:16):
No, it's my opinion.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (21:17):
but that and that's, an interesting
observation of how it isperceived and knowing that
you're not alone and that theepilogue didn't work.
I can't help but feel likesometimes in the industry,
people who have their head downin the industry, they're not
actually paying attention towhat readers want.
Sarah Dickerson (21:36):
Yeah.
No, I agree.
And I also do think we read aton of books.
We are not representative of theaverage reader, and I do know
that, and I know this from, justlook, looking up a bunch of
books on Goodreads and likeseeing the reviews, a lot of
people's negative reviews is Ihated the ending.
They didn't give me the ending.
(21:57):
And so I know that an ending,that's a, and by the way, the
ending of this book, I wouldn'teven say it's that open-ended.
It's not.
But my point being was there wasa level of emotion that Bruce
Holsinger got me to feel withthe ending.
I was like oh my gosh.
jason-blitman_1_09 (22:16):
Interesting.
Sarah Dickerson (22:16):
then it just dribbled after that.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (22:19):
Okay.
Noted.
Sarah Dickerson (22:21):
Yeah, noted.
And that's culpability by BruceHolsinger.
And we are gonna be doing aspoiler discussion on this book
for my paying subscribers onPatreon and Substack.
Yeah, Catherine and I are gonnado that.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (22:34):
Fun.
All right.
I have to read it and then joinin.
Sarah Dickerson (22:38):
So my second, and that's culpability by Bruce
Holsinger.
My second new book I loved is avery under the Radar debut that
I featured it in my fall previewpodcast episode, but I had not
read it yet and I've now readit.
I loved it and I hope it getsmore attention.
It is Dominion by Addie eKitchens, and it came out like
(23:02):
at the end of August, so it'sout.
You can get it now.
It is the story of a very publicfall from grace of the prominent
reverend of a black church in asmall Mississippi town in the
year 2000.
And his golden boy son, who, bythe way, the son is nicknamed
Wonder Boy, so we're not hidingthe fact that the son has done
(23:24):
all the things right andobviously.
When I told you what this bookis about, I said, the Reverend
and his son, right?
And yes, the men in this storydo take up a lot of space, but
at its heart, I felt like thiswas a story about the women.
It's told from the perspectiveof the two most central women in
(23:45):
the Reverend and Wonder Boyslives, it's told from reverend's
wife's perspective andWonderboy's high school
girlfriend's perspective, It'svery voicey.
I love a Voicey book and.
I gotta read you the first linebecause it's funny as all get
out.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (24:00):
Yes.
Bring it on.
Sarah Dickerson (24:02):
Reverend Saber Winfrey Jr.
Believed without a shadow of adoubt that an idol mind was the
devil's workshop, but an idolhand belonged on a behind.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (24:13):
Ha.
Oh
Sarah Dickerson (24:14):
that's the vibe of this book.
And Priscilla, who's thereverend's wife, she's very
snarky.
That was, that line is from herperspective.
She's funny.
She's just had it with all themen in her life and throughout
the story, she's slowly comingto this realization that she's
basically surrounded by likeworthless, terrible men.
Sorry.
You're not worthless andterrible
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (24:35):
You just mean in general?
Sarah Dickerson (24:37):
in general?
There is some suspense, but thatis definitely not the center of
the story.
And I love what I like to callperson left behind books, the
stories of people that live inthe shadows of those sort of
more prominent people thatthey're close to.
And that's exactly what Dominionis.
(24:57):
Priscilla lives in the shadow ofher Reverend Husband and
Diamond, who is Wonder Boy'sHigh School girlfriend lives in
the shadow of Wonder Boy,obviously, because he is the
anointed son of the town that'sgonna go on and make good on
this small town.
And I know I generally just saidI didn't like Epilogues.
But I loved Dominion's epilogue,
jason-blitman_1_09 (25:19):
Interesting.
Sarah Dickerson (25:21):
the last paragraph.
I was like, oh, this is like thewhole point of the book.
Thank you.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (25:25):
What do you think made the difference
for you?
Sarah Dickerson (25:29):
It was not about neatly tying up all the
character stories.
It was about sharing more likean evolution of a character
mentally and emotionally.
And it was a character thatlike, I wanted that person to
get to that place.
Yeah,
jason-blitman_1_09 (25:44):
Interesting.
Sarah Dickerson (25:45):
it's not, it wasn't plotty.
I don't like it when it's andfive years later.
The Reverend is doing this andis doing this, that was not
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (25:52):
ever after.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting.
It's I'm not necessarily seeingit all over the place in
quotation marks, however, it hassuch a dark cover that I, when I
clocked it, I was like, oh, Iam.
I'm recognizing this from otherplaces on Instagram or bookstore
windows or whatever, because thecover is very striking.
Sarah Dickerson (26:13):
It's a very elongated church steeple that's
made to look like a snake.
And yeah that tracks,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (26:21):
Yeah.
Sarah Dickerson (26:22):
It's very short.
It's 240 pages.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (26:24):
Oh, perfect.
Sarah Dickerson (26:25):
Yeah, and I just I am a sucker for if I love
the writing, if I love thevoice, I will go anywhere with
an author.
And I hope a lot more peopleread this book.
It's, just deliciously gossipy,dark side of the church kind of
stuff.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (26:41):
This is interesting'cause this is the
second time you've talked aboutgossip.
That's why you likewhatchamacallit, novels
Sarah Dickerson (26:49):
oral
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (26:49):
oral histories, uhhuh.
Sarah Dickerson (26:51):
Yep.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (26:51):
I'm learning a lot about you, Sarah.
Sarah Dickerson (26:53):
I also love trashy reality tv.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_1 (26:56):
Oh my God.
So funny.
Sarah Dickerson (26:58):
Love Island.
Yes, ma'am.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (26:59):
There is a book coming out in December
called The Book of Luke.
Is that on your radar
Sarah Dickerson (27:04):
Oh, no.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (27:05):
Level Holder?
It's being pitched as Survivormeets less.
Sarah Dickerson (27:12):
Oh, interesting.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_1 (27:15):
So I've heard it gives you like
everything you want in trashytv, but also everything you want
in a good
Sarah Dickerson (27:22):
In a good literary novel.
Okay, perfect.
I loved the compound this
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (27:26):
Oh, Uhhuh.
Sarah Dickerson (27:27):
you read
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_12 (27:28):
I didn't, but it's sitting on my
shelf.
Sarah Dickerson (27:29):
It's like a very dark, gritty survivor meets
love island kind of realityshow, but it's not frothy and
fun.
It is dark and gritty, andthere's an apocalyptic stuff
going on like outside of thevilla.
They're all living in
jason-blitman_1_09 (27:42):
Interesting.
Okay.
Sarah Dickerson (27:44):
another five star read from the summer.
Bonus pick.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (27:47):
All right.
What is the order in which yougo next
Sarah Dickerson (27:49):
Okay.
So I go to did not like, becauseI don't wanna finish on a
negative
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (27:53):
Yeah.
Smart.
Sarah Dickerson (27:54):
and then I finish with upcoming release I'm
excited about.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (27:56):
Okay.
So what book did you not
Sarah Dickerson (27:58):
So this book is getting a lot of great reviews.
Yeah.
Also, I've been in a massivenonfiction slump this year.
jason-blitman_1_09 (28:08):
Interesting.
Sarah Dickerson (28:09):
I'm calling it the great nonfiction slump of
2025, which is also turning intothe great audiobook slump of
2025.
Because I listen to, I onlylisten to, let wait, let me
rephrase that.
The only thing I listen to onaudio is nonfiction.
I do, I have trouble withfiction on audio.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (28:25):
Yeah, me too.
Sarah Dickerson (28:26):
So this is one of the culprits of my great
slump of 2025.
It is no more tears.
The Dark Secrets of Johnson andJohnson by Gardner Harris look
also gossipy.
This is an expose of themultiple scandals of the very
well-known company, Johnson andJohnson.
And it's written by apharmaceutical industry reporter
(28:48):
for the New York Times.
And he covered a number ofscandals, some that I was
familiar with, and some thatwere new to me, like the
Johnson's baby powder containingasbestos, which that was new to
me.
I did not know that.
He covered the Tylenol.
Arsenic poisoning scandal, whichI was aware of.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (29:06):
Which there's a documentary about on
Sarah Dickerson (29:08):
Oh, is
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_1 (29:08):
so good.
Sarah Dickerson (29:10):
Oh my God.
Okay, now I'm gonna have to gowatch that.
He talks about marketingdangerous antipsychotics to
children, which I did not knowabout.
And then he also talks about acancer drug that actually makes
tumors grow,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_1 (29:22):
I.
Sarah Dickerson (29:23):
which I did not know about.
I love a book about a scandal,which is not surprising after
this whole conversation todaywhere I've just been talking
about gossip.
You guys, I do other thingsbesides
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (29:33):
yes you do.
You do.
You do.
Sarah Dickerson (29:35):
yeah.
But I heard Al Woodworth, who isone of Amazon books, editors say
that no more tears was likereading Empire of Pain by
Patrick Radden.
Keefe, which I absolutely loved.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (29:49):
Yeah.
Good book.
Sarah Dickerson (29:50):
Like great book, very scandalous, lots of
big revelations, but also reallypropulsive
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (29:55):
Yeah.
It's like a thrilling familydrama.
Sarah Dickerson (29:58):
absolutely.
So that's what I was expectingfrom no more tears.
And there are big revelations inthis book, but it is not
propulsive, sorry.
It is very dry at times, thereis a lot of medical jargon, a
lot of legal jargon, a lot ofreally long names of different
drugs and medications.
And obviously for, not obviously'cause I am not an auditory
(30:22):
learner, but on audio that waseven more difficult for me and
even more dry for me and harderto keep up with.
And I think it's just imaginingI was gonna get Empire of Pain
might've set me up fordisappointment here.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (30:37):
Yeah.
Sarah Dickerson (30:37):
Yeah.
I wish it had been written in amore compelling and accessible
style because I do think it's,it is, while being very dry at
times, very important stuff isin this book.
And I'm glad that it waspublished to get that stuff out
there.
But I just, I wanted it to bemore like that filet mignon.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (30:57):
Yes.
Sarah Dickerson (30:59):
Yeah.
But it's getting great reviewsand if you want denser
nonfiction, it might be for you.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (31:07):
It's unfair too because not only is a
comp empire of pain, but alsothe cover is fun.
It looks like a a baby powderbottle.
Isn't that that something like,that it like.
Sarah Dickerson (31:20):
It's the branding from Johnson's Baby
Powder.
It's like the same font, thesame colors, stuff like that.
And in the little like logospace, it says deception,
corruption, death.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_1 (31:35):
So because it feels, there's
something fun in quotes aboutthat cover, it looks almost
cheeky.
It's setting itself up forsuccess or set.
It's not, it is not, settingitself up for success.
Sarah Dickerson (31:49):
that's not the vibe of the book at all.
I do, however, think the coverwas pretty genius.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (31:54):
Yeah, no, of course.
But
Sarah Dickerson (31:56):
match the vibe of the book, but it is very
clever as far as the brandingand it is simple, yet complex.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (32:03):
Yeah.
Okay.
Noted.
Sarah Dickerson (32:05):
so that's No More Tears by Gardner Harris,
I'm so sorry, but you know thatbook's doing well.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-20 (32:10):
right.
It's doing fine.
as a gift, To help with yournonfiction slump.
Sarah Dickerson (32:15):
Please.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (32:16):
One of my favorite books of the
year, which I did both audio andphysical of simultaneously, is
talk.
The subtitle is The Science ofConversation and The Art of
Being Ourselves by Allison WoodBrooks.
Sarah Dickerson (32:31):
Oh, I have not heard of that.
Okay.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_12 (32:33):
a class about conversation at
Harvard.
And she is so incredible.
She's a great speaker in termsof just she's a Harvard
professor, but her background isin theater and she's just so
warm and accessible.
And particularly for you who,you have conversations for a
living, I was shocked by theamount that I've taken from this
(32:56):
book and that I like still thinkabout daily.
it's so great.
Sarah Dickerson (33:01):
I have conversations for a living, but
they're about a topic I couldtalk about forever.
I am not as great at small talkwhen I can't immediately grab
onto something we have in commonto talk about.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (33:16):
Yeah,
Sarah Dickerson (33:17):
And I could probably, because I am an
introvert at heart, even thoughit probably doesn't feel like
that right
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_12 (33:22):
I would say I am the same.
Sarah Dickerson (33:23):
Yeah.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_12 (33:24):
I get all of my rejuvenation from
being by
Sarah Dickerson (33:27):
Reading.
Yeah,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (33:28):
from reading.
Yes, exactly.
So I highly recommend it and theaudio is very good.
Sarah Dickerson (33:32):
Oh, perfect.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (33:33):
Yeah.
Sarah Dickerson (33:34):
I've been writing on a little notepad the
books you've been telling me.
So I have Book of Luke and Ihave talk.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (33:40):
Yes.
Book of Lu I haven't read yet,but I do It still feels like
something you
Sarah Dickerson (33:45):
Yeah.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
'cause I can get early galleys,so that's helpful for me.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (33:50):
And so finally, what is the book
that you're looking forward to?
Sarah Dickerson (33:54):
The book I'm looking forward to now.
I have not read this yet, but Ihave read her previous book.
I did not have space to sharethis in our fall preview
episode, so I'm thrilled that Ican talk about it here.
And it is nonfiction, so it isobviously a risk for me this
year,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (34:11):
Okay.
Listen.
Sarah Dickerson (34:12):
but.
I have loved her before, so I'mhoping it can help me turn a
corner.
It's Paper Girl, A Memoir ofHome and Family in a Fractured
America by Beth Macy.
Have you heard of Beth Macy?
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (34:26):
No.
Sarah Dickerson (34:27):
Okay.
She wrote Dope Sick.
Have you heard of that?
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (34:31):
Oh, yes.
Sarah Dickerson (34:33):
opioid crisis?
Yeah, so that came out a coupleyears back.
That came out before Empire ofPain, which is also
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (34:39):
Oh, interesting.
Sarah Dickerson (34:41):
And she is now turning to memoir and telling
the story of the changes thather really small hometown of
Urbana, Ohio has gone throughsince she grew up there in the
seventies and eighties.
she grew up fairly poor and wentto college on a Pell Grant
before becoming a journalist.
And in 2020 she began returningto her hometown to take care of
(35:05):
her ailing mother.
So she went, was going backpretty often, and she started to
notice the town's generaldecline.
There was no longer any localnewspaper, which she was.
She delivered the localnewspaper when she was a kid,
hence the book's title.
And there were, the graduationrates were severely declining at
the local high school.
There was a mental healthcrisis, just general economic
(35:28):
decline, all this kind of stuffgoing on.
And so it's a social changestory, but also her personal
story.
And I like when social issuesare written about through a
personal, the lens of a personalstory and.
I will probably listen to thison audio, so hopefully that will
(35:51):
be okay.
And it's coming out October 7th,and that is Paper Girl by Beth
Macy.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (35:57):
Fun.
I say fun thinking
Sarah Dickerson (35:59):
I don't know that this is a
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (35:59):
Oh, no, no, no.
the audio book, because she isprobably reading it and
Sarah Dickerson (36:02):
So she did narrate dope Sick.
So I would imagine she's gonnanarrate her memoir.
Yeah.
And I love memoirs narrated bythe author.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (36:09):
Yes.
Including one of our favorites,the many lives of Mama Love.
Sarah Dickerson (36:13):
Oh my gosh, yes.
Oh did you see that?
I posted on Instagram, I thinkit was like my upcoming guest
post about your episode, and shecommented on it
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (36:22):
did.
I did.
I love her.
Sarah Dickerson (36:24):
and I was like, oh, we talked about you.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (36:27):
And here we are again talking about
her
Sarah Dickerson (36:29):
Yes, we are.
She's one of my all timefavorite interviews that I've
ever done.
And it's not because of me.
It was because of her.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (36:35):
she's amazing.
What a great list of books tohave.
Sarah Dickerson (36:40):
Thank you.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (36:41):
you so much.
Sarah Dickerson (36:42):
thank you for giving me a place to talk about
a couple things that and atleast culpability I'm not going
to be talking about on my
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (36:48):
We, we are here for each other.
Anytime you wanna talk about abook that you don't get to talk
about on your show, come on overand talk about it on
Sarah Dickerson (36:55):
That my co-host steal right from under my
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (36:57):
Yes.
There's always a place for youon gay's reading as a, as an
ally.
Sarah Dickerson (37:01):
Thank you.
I appreciate you having me.
This has been so fun.
My face hurts from laughing andsmiling so
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (37:06):
Oh, I'm so glad.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Everybody go check out Sarah'sbookshelves live.
You're all over the place.
You're on Instagram, you haveyour website, you have your
show, you have your Patreon,your Substack.
You're where aren't you
Sarah Dickerson (37:21):
I'm not super big on Facebook,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (37:23):
Sure Nor on
Sarah Dickerson (37:24):
Also, I wanna plug.
Your visit to my podcast, whichaired on September 17th.
so you can go to my feed andhear Jason talk about what it's
like to interview authors.
And we, that's a two-wayconversation'cause we both
interview authors and he alsotalks about what it's like to
(37:44):
produce a literary festival.
And then he shares his picks inthe format that we just did
today.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-20 (37:51):
Again, thank you for being here.
Everyone, if you like whatyou're hearing, share us with
your friends.
Follow us on social media atGays Reading.
Check us out on YouTube and allthe things and all the places,
and I'll see you next time.
Bye.
Sarah Dickerson (38:02):
you.
Bye, Jason.
Gaze reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what, andwhy.
Anyone can listen.
Comes we're spoiler free Readingfrom politic stars to book club
picks where the curious mindscan get their picks.
So you say you're not gay.
(00:24):
Well that's okay.
There's something for everyone.
Gays rating.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (00:34):
Hello and welcome to Gay's Reading and
this super special episode ofWhat Are You Reading With the
one and only Sarah Dickinson,the host of Sarah's Bookshelves
Live, which I imagine being anall capitals with an exclamation
point for some reason, andsparkly lights.
Not only is Sarah here to talkto me about what she's currently
(00:56):
reading, but we're gonna do soin the Sarah's bookshelves live
way.
Welcome Sarah to Gay's Reading.
Sarah Dickerson (01:04):
Thank you so much for having me.
Am I a one and only?
That's like a pretty big deal.
I've never been called the oneand only before.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (01:12):
the, hello?
Sarah's bookshelves live.
It's like Disney on Ice Live.
Sarah Dickerson (01:17):
That's because it was a blog before.
It was a podcast, and mostpeople don't even know that
because that was so long ago.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2 (01:25):
Listen, I am a good reader and I use my
context clues and madeassumptions about that,
Sarah Dickerson (01:30):
Yes.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (01:31):
once just Sarah's bookshelves.
Sarah Dickerson (01:32):
the blog was Sarah's bookshelves when we
started the podcast.
We tacked on live
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (01:37):
Yes.
So fun.
When I actually first startedlistening to you, I thought that
the episodes might have beenliterally live,
Sarah Dickerson (01:44):
Oh, really?
Oh no.
We're not that live.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (01:47):
No.
Live ish.
Sarah Dickerson (01:48):
That would take a whole nother skill set that I
don't think I have.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (01:51):
Yeah.
No.
Interesting though.
And scary.
So maybe one day
Sarah Dickerson (01:56):
We shall see.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (01:57):
I've thought about hosting like an
actual radio show and I waslike, I don't know that I'd be
able to do that.
Sarah Dickerson (02:04):
I think that sounds really difficult.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (02:07):
Yeah.
Sarah Dickerson (02:07):
I definitely rely on the editing and
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (02:10):
not just relying on editing.
I would be nervous of havingsomething to say always.
Sarah Dickerson (02:14):
And you can't edit out that long pause.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (02:16):
No.
And you're like, oh, someone isdriving and they're listening to
you
Sarah Dickerson (02:21):
Yes, absolutely.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2 (02:22):
anyway, so I'm on a journey.
Sarah, how are you today?
I.
Sarah Dickerson (02:26):
I am doing well today.
Thank you.
How are you?
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (02:29):
I'm pretty good hanging in lots of,
I feel like I'm surrounded bybooks, which is perfect for
Sarah Dickerson (02:34):
I can see them around you.
I have no books behind me'causeI'm not normally on video.
And sorry you guys, I have amic, like whatever this thing is
called in my, a pop filter in myface and there are no books
behind me.
'cause this is my guest room andthe
jason-blitman_1_09-11 (02:48):
honestly, I'm honored because I know that
you don't do your podcast oncamera, and so I this is a, this
is like a special, uniqueinsider scoop into you.
I can't I love it.
Sarah Dickerson (02:59):
I hope I can remember that I'm on camera.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_12 (03:02):
I know.
But we're in this together.
So can you tell my listeners whomay or may not have listened to
Sarah's bookshelves Live before?
What is the Sarah's BookshelvesLive way?
What is your brand that we aregonna dive into a little bit
today?
How do, what do you, when youtalk to people about what
they're reading, what do youask?
Sarah Dickerson (03:20):
When I talk to, first of all, my brand I would
say, is like when you firstpress play on my podcast
episode, we have a little, introand it says getting real and
sometimes snarky about books andreading.
So we always share our realopinions.
We do talk about books we don'tlike.
Sometimes we're a little bitsnarky.
(03:41):
I try to always be constructiveand concrete when I talk about a
book I don't like, but.
I do.
I do a lot of different kinds ofepisodes.
I have two co-hosts, Catherineand Susie, who join me for many
episodes now.
It didn't used to be that way,but intermixed with Catherine
and Susie.
I have other guests from thepublishing industry where we
(04:02):
will go behind the scenes ofdifferent corners of the book
world.
I have other sort of indiebooksellers that come on, and
then I also have some authorinterviews.
Not as many as you have.
But I used to do a ton of otherinterviews, and I do probably
anywhere from four to seven ayear right now.
I would say the kinds of thingsthat I like to talk to my guests
about.
(04:22):
I love to go behind the scenesof whatever I'm talking about.
So if it's an author, the storybehind the book, the story
behind that author's publishingjourney, if I'm talking to
somebody from the book world, Iwant the behind the scenes scoop
on their job.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (04:37):
Yeah.
I love that.
And I love, we're like, I feellike you're my sister in
podcasting.
Sarah Dickerson (04:42):
Oh, I love it.
I'll be your sister any day.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (04:44):
Yes.
Okay.
Not this is a unique episode ofWhat are you reading?
Because I'm not just gonnasimply ask you what are you
reading, but I'm gonna ask youwhat you're reading in the
Sarah's bookshelves Live Waywhich is, of course two new
books that you love, two oldbooks that you love, a book that
you didn't love, and a book thatyou're looking forward to.
Where did that structure comefrom for you?
Sarah Dickerson (05:06):
Originally we were, this is way back, but the
original idea for the show wasto have other like book
influencers on to talk aboutwhat they were reading.
So we were like, let's put insome sort of structure and we
wanted.
It was more like, how do we fitin all these different types of
books that we want to fit intoan episode.
(05:28):
So we know that people like tohear about backlist books.
So those are our old books.
We know people love to hearabout upcoming releases.
So that's our upcoming releasewe're excited about.
We like to talk about new booksbecause that's a lot of what
we're reading.
And in keeping with the Sarah'sbookshelves brand of always
being truthful and honest aboutour opinions about books, we
needed to talk about a book wedid not like.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (05:50):
Yeah.
Which really stressed me out onyour show, but I did
Sarah Dickerson (05:52):
You
jason-blitman_1_09- (05:53):
persevered.
Sarah Dickerson (05:54):
Can you imagine if you were stressed?
The authors that come on, theyare super stressed.
They try to either totally dodgethat question and I allow them
to, if they are not comfortable,but also they will cheat and
maybe pick a classic.
The author's Long dead, which isa good way to get around it.
Some will say, look, this is agreat book, but it's just not
(06:14):
for my personal taste, which isalso.
Honestly, I think that is thebottom line about books you
don't like.
There are a million differentkinds of reading tastes out
there.
There is a book for everybody.
There's probably a person outthere in the world that likes
every single book out there.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (06:30):
Yeah, just before we hit record, we
were talking about a book that Iloved and you didn't love.
Sarah Dickerson (06:35):
Exactly.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (06:36):
and here we are.
Sarah Dickerson (06:37):
That on the
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_1 (06:38):
no we are not.
Sarah Dickerson (06:40):
Okay.
All right.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_1 (06:41):
So all of that said, so what are
the old books that you love?
Sarah Dickerson (06:44):
The first old book I love and I'm gonna talk
about, I'm gonna try the bestthat I can to talk about these
in keeping with the style thatyou talk about books in on your
show.
Like Vibes First,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (06:55):
Yes.
Sarah Dickerson (06:56):
So I read this novel in 2023, which was about a
year after it was published, andI had not heard much about it in
the year that it had been out,and I still haven't heard much
about it, but I loved it.
And it's called Like A House onFire by Lauren McBrayer.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (07:12):
Yeah.
Sarah Dickerson (07:13):
It is a story about a married mother of two
who returns to her career afterfeeling stuck in her life, and
she develops a really intenserelationship with her new female
boss, which changes her life.
This is a very intense characterdriven love story between two
women and I personally, you knowthis'cause you listen to my
(07:35):
show, but for your listeners whoare new to me, I think a love
story is very different than aromance.
This is not a romance novel likeby any means,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (07:46):
Oh, I, this is not, this was not on
my radar at all.
Sarah Dickerson (07:49):
Hey, you had never heard of this.
Oh, okay.
That makes me happy.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_1 (07:54):
So when I saw it come to learn
about it.
Sarah Dickerson (07:56):
the focus here is about the emotional
connection between these twowomen.
It's very intense.
There are some sort of torridand breathless scenes, but
that's not the crux of thestory.
It's really about a woman who.
For most of her life has carriedthe load for all the people
around her, like many women do.
(08:17):
And she finally meets someonewho sees straight through to
what she needs and what shewants and what she's going
through.
And it's also about finding justyour person in life, regardless
of whether that person is thegender that you thought you were
attracted to your entire life.
Like our main character hadnever considered herself to be a
(08:37):
gay woman.
And this couple reminded me ofGlennon Doyle and Abby Womac.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (08:43):
Yes.
Sarah Dickerson (08:44):
Yes.
And I listened to their podcastand I, the whole time I was
reading, I was like, oh my gosh,this is like Glennon and Abby on
the page.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (08:51):
Oh, how interesting.
I know.
I need to check that out.
Sarah Dickerson (08:54):
what?
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_12 (08:55):
I have to check it out.
I'm so
Sarah Dickerson (08:56):
Oh, I thought you said we have to take that
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (08:58):
no.
I have to check it out.
Sarah Dickerson (09:00):
Oh, you don't listen to Glennon and Abby's
podcast?
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (09:02):
No.
Sarah Dickerson (09:04):
it's, we can do hard things.
It's so good.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (09:06):
Okay.
Sarah Dickerson (09:07):
But when I finished the book, the really
interesting part about this wasI googled around'cause I like to
do that sometimes.
I like to go behind the scenesof the book, as I mentioned.
And there was an article inVogue written by the author
Lauren McBrayer, and she talksabout how this book started out
as a quote, meditation on genderdynamics in a heteronormative
(09:27):
marriage.
But it turned into somethingelse entirely.
During her writing process, sherealized her own marriage was
falling apart and her agentpressed her if the stuff in the
book did this really happen?
And she said not literally, butthe emotional core of the book
is true.
So it's very much based on herreal life and.
(09:49):
If you wanna read it, and if youare sensitive to spoilers like I
am, wait until after you readthe book, before you Google this
Vogue article, because it doesgive away the ending.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (09:58):
Oh, good to know.
Okay.
Sarah Dickerson (10:00):
I do not like to be spoiled.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_1 (10:03):
me either.
We are very spoiler free ongay's reading.
Says the theme song.
Sarah Dickerson (10:08):
Like a House on fire by Lauren McBrayer.
If you have not read it yet,it's so good and it's very under
the radar.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (10:14):
There is a book coming out in, at the
end of September that I won'tsay what it is on the air
because it is going to be myNovember gaze reading book Club
pick through Altoa.
But it ha, it has like a.
Some similar vibes to whatyou're saying, and I am excited
(10:36):
to share more with you.
Sarah Dickerson (10:37):
okay.
You have to tell me so I can gorequest the galley after.
After we get off the air.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (10:40):
Yes, I will.
All so what is your other oldbook that
Sarah Dickerson (10:43):
So my second old book is a five star read,
and it was one of my favoritebooks of 2021, the year it came
out, and it's the final revivalof Opal and Nev by Donnie
Walton.
Have you read this book?
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_12 (10:56):
I have.
Sarah Dickerson (10:57):
You have?
Okay.
It was, it's a debut.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_12 (11:00):
I loved it.
Sarah Dickerson (11:01):
Oh, good.
I loved it too.
And it's an oral history, butit's fictional and I am a sucker
for oral histories.
Fictional or nonfiction,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_12 (11:09):
I have a really hot take about
this book.
Sarah Dickerson (11:11):
oh my gosh.
Okay.
Do you want me to do
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (11:13):
Yes.
Do your spiel for
Sarah Dickerson (11:14):
and then you do
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (11:15):
yeah.
Sarah Dickerson (11:15):
Okay.
Now you have me really curious.
So it's a fictional oralhistory.
It's set in the 1970s musicworld and a present day
journalist investigates thestory behind an iconic
photograph of the Interrainterracial rock duo, Opal and
Nev.
And the photograph was taken ata concert, at a riot, at a
concert in the 1970s.
(11:38):
I love the oral history formatbecause I feel like it gives
stories, a very sort ofdelicious, gossipy feel.
It allows for a lot ofspeculation about motives, and
that is a lot of what the storyis.
It's like a darker, grittier,less escapist version of Daisy
Jones in the six, oh.
(12:00):
What,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-20 (12:01):
That's connected to my hot
Sarah Dickerson (12:03):
okay.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (12:04):
Keep going.
Sarah Dickerson (12:04):
All right, good.
All right.
We'll put a pin in that.
And what happened was thisiconic photograph took on a life
of its own following the riot atthe Rivington Showcase, which
was the concert.
And the journalist examines howso many people dissected this
photograph to mean so manydifferent things, and they
projected a lot of very deepmeaning onto it.
(12:28):
Some political, some not, and.
She goes into was all of thisintended did the people in the
photograph intend to disseminatethese messages that a lot of the
people viewing the photographwere projecting onto it?
And we do also get, of course,get the broader behind the
scenes story of the rise andfall of and of the rise and the
(12:48):
eventual breakup of Opal and Devas a rock duo.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (12:52):
Yeah.
Sarah Dickerson (12:53):
Opal is the most amazing character.
She is memorable.
She's singular.
I ne had never read anyone likeher before.
She's extremely provocative, yetalso really vulnerable, and
she's funky.
She's like creatively andstylistically funky.
I.
And there are these editor'snotes at the, oh sorry.
There are these editor's notesthat are like injected
(13:14):
throughout the story kind ofmixing in the journalist own
journey as she's learning thedetails behind this photograph.
And again, going back to behindthe scenes of this fair felt
very Ooh, we're getting thebehind the scenes scoop even
though it's fictional, right?
It's the kind of book that liketricks your brain into thinking
you're reading about a realband, which also Daisy Jones and
(13:35):
the sixth did for me
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (13:36):
Yeah, the amount of Googling to see
Sarah Dickerson (13:39):
Oh yeah.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (13:40):
was a lot
Sarah Dickerson (13:41):
And then is there anyone it could be based
on,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (13:43):
yeah,
Sarah Dickerson (13:45):
all right.
I wanna hear your hot take.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_1 (13:46):
so I read Oprah and Nev first
Sarah Dickerson (13:50):
Oh, okay.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_12 (13:53):
I read Daisy Jones.
Sarah Dickerson (13:54):
Interesting.
Okay.
I had read them in the reverse
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (13:56):
Yes.
Which I think is how most peopledid.
'cause that's the order in whichthey came out.
But I read Al and Nev first andthen read Daisy Jones and was
like, what is this watered downgarbage version of Al and Nev?
Which like obviously isn't true,but it made me sad because I
think Al and Nev is so grittyand so It's just.
(14:18):
It more interesting, for lack ofa better word, there's
Sarah Dickerson (14:21):
It's deeper.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (14:22):
the stakes are higher, right?
And it's deeper.
And so for me, when I read DaisyJones, I was like, what?
Sarah Dickerson (14:29):
So to me, Daisy Jones felt like this sort of fun
romp, even though there are somekind of dark things in there.
And Opal and Dev did not feellike a fun romp.
It was like intense and
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (14:40):
And it was like a real story, like
you,
Sarah Dickerson (14:41):
but I kept turning those pages
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (14:43):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
So that's my hot take is thatI'm sad that I feel like it got
overshadowed by Daisy Jones, butit's like the better version of
a similar story.
Sarah Dickerson (14:54):
I agree and I am glad I read them in the order
that I did, because I rated bothof them five stars,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (15:00):
Oh, that's so interesting.
Sarah Dickerson (15:02):
I didn't ruin my reading experience of Daisy
Jones.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (15:05):
And that's such an interesting just
like.
Thought exercise on contextmattering.
Sarah Dickerson (15:10):
Oh, a hundred percent.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (15:11):
There was this book that I loved
recently that another, that abookstagram wrote to me about
that she really didn't like.
And she said, to be fair, I hadjust read a book that was a five
star read for me.
I loved it so much.
I'd never read anything like it.
So then when I read this otherbook, I was super disappointed.
And I said, that's funny becausefor me, I had just come off of a
(15:32):
book that ID nfd.
Sarah Dickerson (15:35):
Yeah, that matters.
And especially if the two bookshave similarities.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (15:39):
Yeah.
Sarah Dickerson (15:40):
I always, after a five star read, I always try
to go in a totally differentdirection from a
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (15:45):
good for you.
That's so smart.
Sarah Dickerson (15:47):
oftentimes fiction to nonfiction or vice
versa.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (15:50):
Yeah.
So that's the final revival ofOpal and Nev.
Yes.
Loved.
Okay.
What now we're onto new books.
Sarah Dickerson (16:00):
yes.
We're on to new books and.
You are getting an exclusive.
Both the new books I'm sharingtoday, I have not actually
talked about on my own show
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (16:09):
Oh,
Sarah Dickerson (16:09):
yet, and
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (16:11):
hot off the press.
Sarah Dickerson (16:12):
I know.
This first one I'm not going totalk about on my own show.
It is getting so much buzz.
It was an Oprah pick thissummer, but my co-host Catherine
read it and already talked aboutit on the show.
So I now can't bring it back.
Unless I have a differentopinion, which I don't.
So I'm really glad to be able totalk about it here'cause I did
love it.
(16:32):
It is culpability by BruceHolsinger and.
Culpability is a story about howan upper middle class family is
impacted by ai and it kicks offwith a car crash involving a
self-driving car that's poweredby ai.
And that's all I'm gonna tellyou about the plot.
First of all, like I got so manyemail pitches this calendar year
(16:57):
for novels about ai, and I'vebeen allergic to them.
I've been like delete, delete,except this one.
And the reason that I.
Made an exception here is that Iloved Holsinger novel, the
Displacement, Was his last book,and I heard that culpability
read more like a family dramathan an AI book, which is up my
alley.
(17:18):
And I would agree, I thinkculpability very much reads like
a family drama and it's reallyabout the human impact of ai,
like the very real world humanconsequences for relatable
people.
About AI's involvement in theirlife.
It's exactly the kind of bookthat you talked about loving.
(17:38):
When you came on my show, yousaid you used this analogy that
I loved, and I'm sure youalready know what I'm gonna say,
but it's a book that feels likeyou're eating substantive and
nourishing food, but it's alsofood that's really easy to eat.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (17:54):
Yeah.
Sarah Dickerson (17:55):
The filet mignon that you can cut with a
butter knife and like it dealswith thought provoking, it deals
with cut that out.
Obviously
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (18:03):
Yeah.
Sarah Dickerson (18:04):
it deals with thought provoking topics, but
it's super accessible and easyto read and I flew through It
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (18:10):
It's everywhere.
And
Sarah Dickerson (18:12):
is
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (18:12):
not, I haven't picked it up, so I'm,
this is, you have sold theculpability to me.
Sarah Dickerson (18:18):
Oh good.
I'm not done yet.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (18:19):
I'm bring it on.
Sarah Dickerson (18:21):
It's reminded me a little bit of Lori Frankl.
This is How it always is.
Have you read that?
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (18:27):
No, but I read her other book.
Sarah Dickerson (18:31):
This is a couple books ago for her and it,
I would say it's her most wellknown, but it's about this
regular family who has a veryyoung child for who from a very
young age knows is transgender.
And so it's about the wholefamily going through that
situation and experiencing thatand the way that they, these two
(18:52):
books feel similar to me.
Culpability is not about atransgender person at all, but
it's a very relatable familythat I could picture myself
being a part of, and they'redealing with a situation that
many people have notexperienced, but totally could
experience.
And it asks big questions aboutthe intersection of technology
and morality, and of courseculpability.
(19:15):
It's like an examination ofclass and privilege, not only
wealth based privilege, but likewhite male star athlete
privilege, which I think istotally a thing.
My caveat, and Catherine, mycohost who read this first
warned me about it and she wasright.
She told me to skip theepilogue.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (19:37):
What?
Sarah Dickerson (19:37):
Yes.
She said it was so bad it took ahalf star off the book for her.
And I don't generally loveepilogues anyway, but okay.
So what she did was make me thencurious,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_1 (19:49):
of course.
Sarah Dickerson (19:50):
So I did not skip the epilogue.
I read the epilogue, but in myhead I was like, I'm not gonna
rate the book based on theepilogue.
I'm gonna pretend that the endof the book is the end of the
book.
And I did agree with her.
The epilogue just took the windoutta the sails.
There's at the end of the book,like my jaw was on the floor and
the epilogue just tempered allthat emotion.
jason-blitman_1_09 (20:10):
Interesting.
Sarah Dickerson (20:11):
In the book with my jaw on the floor,
please.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (20:14):
This is so funny, this comparison
that I'm about to make, but Iwatch a lot of Project Runway
and the amount of times thatsomething like styling will
affect a judgment.
The outfit is amazing, but thenthey like.
Also had a jacket on, and thenat the judging station, they're
like, take the jacket off.
(20:35):
And they're like, see, if itdidn't have the jacket, it
would've won.
And so that's what this sort offeels like.
It's, it's the perfect outfitcome, the ending and then they
tacked on a little more.
Sarah Dickerson (20:46):
It feels like to me sometimes publishers, and
I could be wrong.
I don't know the order of howthe epilogues get put in, right?
But I feel like an authorprobably ends a book at the end
of the book and the publishercomes in and is oh, people are
gonna think that's too openended.
We need to wrap things up in atidy bow, you gotta put in an
epilogue.
And that annoys me to kingdomcome.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (21:07):
This is very interesting that you're
bringing this up because I, andI know that.
You're not saying that as factof what happened with
culpability.
Sarah Dickerson (21:16):
No, it's my opinion.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (21:17):
but that and that's, an interesting
observation of how it isperceived and knowing that
you're not alone and that theepilogue didn't work.
I can't help but feel likesometimes in the industry,
people who have their head downin the industry, they're not
actually paying attention towhat readers want.
Sarah Dickerson (21:36):
Yeah.
No, I agree.
And I also do think we read aton of books.
We are not representative of theaverage reader, and I do know
that, and I know this from, justlook, looking up a bunch of
books on Goodreads and likeseeing the reviews, a lot of
people's negative reviews is Ihated the ending.
They didn't give me the ending.
(21:57):
And so I know that an ending,that's a, and by the way, the
ending of this book, I wouldn'teven say it's that open-ended.
It's not.
But my point being was there wasa level of emotion that Bruce
Holsinger got me to feel withthe ending.
I was like oh my gosh.
jason-blitman_1_09 (22:16):
Interesting.
Sarah Dickerson (22:16):
then it just dribbled after that.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (22:19):
Okay.
Noted.
Sarah Dickerson (22:21):
Yeah, noted.
And that's culpability by BruceHolsinger.
And we are gonna be doing aspoiler discussion on this book
for my paying subscribers onPatreon and Substack.
Yeah, Catherine and I are gonnado that.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (22:34):
Fun.
All right.
I have to read it and then joinin.
Sarah Dickerson (22:38):
So my second, and that's culpability by Bruce
Holsinger.
My second new book I loved is avery under the Radar debut that
I featured it in my fall previewpodcast episode, but I had not
read it yet and I've now readit.
I loved it and I hope it getsmore attention.
It is Dominion by Addie eKitchens, and it came out like
(23:02):
at the end of August, so it'sout.
You can get it now.
It is the story of a very publicfall from grace of the prominent
reverend of a black church in asmall Mississippi town in the
year 2000.
And his golden boy son, who, bythe way, the son is nicknamed
Wonder Boy, so we're not hidingthe fact that the son has done
(23:24):
all the things right andobviously.
When I told you what this bookis about, I said, the Reverend
and his son, right?
And yes, the men in this storydo take up a lot of space, but
at its heart, I felt like thiswas a story about the women.
It's told from the perspectiveof the two most central women in
(23:45):
the Reverend and Wonder Boyslives, it's told from reverend's
wife's perspective andWonderboy's high school
girlfriend's perspective, It'svery voicey.
I love a Voicey book and.
I gotta read you the first linebecause it's funny as all get
out.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (24:00):
Yes.
Bring it on.
Sarah Dickerson (24:02):
Reverend Saber Winfrey Jr.
Believed without a shadow of adoubt that an idol mind was the
devil's workshop, but an idolhand belonged on a behind.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (24:13):
Ha.
Oh
Sarah Dickerson (24:14):
that's the vibe of this book.
And Priscilla, who's thereverend's wife, she's very
snarky.
That was, that line is from herperspective.
She's funny.
She's just had it with all themen in her life and throughout
the story, she's slowly comingto this realization that she's
basically surrounded by likeworthless, terrible men.
Sorry.
You're not worthless andterrible
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (24:35):
You just mean in general?
Sarah Dickerson (24:37):
in general?
There is some suspense, but thatis definitely not the center of
the story.
And I love what I like to callperson left behind books, the
stories of people that live inthe shadows of those sort of
more prominent people thatthey're close to.
And that's exactly what Dominionis.
(24:57):
Priscilla lives in the shadow ofher Reverend Husband and
Diamond, who is Wonder Boy'sHigh School girlfriend lives in
the shadow of Wonder Boy,obviously, because he is the
anointed son of the town that'sgonna go on and make good on
this small town.
And I know I generally just saidI didn't like Epilogues.
But I loved Dominion's epilogue,
jason-blitman_1_09 (25:19):
Interesting.
Sarah Dickerson (25:21):
the last paragraph.
I was like, oh, this is like thewhole point of the book.
Thank you.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (25:25):
What do you think made the difference
for you?
Sarah Dickerson (25:29):
It was not about neatly tying up all the
character stories.
It was about sharing more likean evolution of a character
mentally and emotionally.
And it was a character thatlike, I wanted that person to
get to that place.
Yeah,
jason-blitman_1_09 (25:44):
Interesting.
Sarah Dickerson (25:45):
it's not, it wasn't plotty.
I don't like it when it's andfive years later.
The Reverend is doing this andis doing this, that was not
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (25:52):
ever after.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting.
It's I'm not necessarily seeingit all over the place in
quotation marks, however, it hassuch a dark cover that I, when I
clocked it, I was like, oh, Iam.
I'm recognizing this from otherplaces on Instagram or bookstore
windows or whatever, because thecover is very striking.
Sarah Dickerson (26:13):
It's a very elongated church steeple that's
made to look like a snake.
And yeah that tracks,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (26:21):
Yeah.
Sarah Dickerson (26:22):
It's very short.
It's 240 pages.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (26:24):
Oh, perfect.
Sarah Dickerson (26:25):
Yeah, and I just I am a sucker for if I love
the writing, if I love thevoice, I will go anywhere with
an author.
And I hope a lot more peopleread this book.
It's, just deliciously gossipy,dark side of the church kind of
stuff.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (26:41):
This is interesting'cause this is the
second time you've talked aboutgossip.
That's why you likewhatchamacallit, novels
Sarah Dickerson (26:49):
oral
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (26:49):
oral histories, uhhuh.
Sarah Dickerson (26:51):
Yep.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (26:51):
I'm learning a lot about you, Sarah.
Sarah Dickerson (26:53):
I also love trashy reality tv.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_1 (26:56):
Oh my God.
So funny.
Sarah Dickerson (26:58):
Love Island.
Yes, ma'am.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (26:59):
There is a book coming out in December
called The Book of Luke.
Is that on your radar
Sarah Dickerson (27:04):
Oh, no.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (27:05):
Level Holder?
It's being pitched as Survivormeets less.
Sarah Dickerson (27:12):
Oh, interesting.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_1 (27:15):
So I've heard it gives you like
everything you want in trashytv, but also everything you want
in a good
Sarah Dickerson (27:22):
In a good literary novel.
Okay, perfect.
I loved the compound this
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (27:26):
Oh, Uhhuh.
Sarah Dickerson (27:27):
you read
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_12 (27:28):
I didn't, but it's sitting on my
shelf.
Sarah Dickerson (27:29):
It's like a very dark, gritty survivor meets
love island kind of realityshow, but it's not frothy and
fun.
It is dark and gritty, andthere's an apocalyptic stuff
going on like outside of thevilla.
They're all living in
jason-blitman_1_09 (27:42):
Interesting.
Okay.
Sarah Dickerson (27:44):
another five star read from the summer.
Bonus pick.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (27:47):
All right.
What is the order in which yougo next
Sarah Dickerson (27:49):
Okay.
So I go to did not like, becauseI don't wanna finish on a
negative
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (27:53):
Yeah.
Smart.
Sarah Dickerson (27:54):
and then I finish with upcoming release I'm
excited about.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (27:56):
Okay.
So what book did you not
Sarah Dickerson (27:58):
So this book is getting a lot of great reviews.
Yeah.
Also, I've been in a massivenonfiction slump this year.
jason-blitman_1_09 (28:08):
Interesting.
Sarah Dickerson (28:09):
I'm calling it the great nonfiction slump of
2025, which is also turning intothe great audiobook slump of
2025.
Because I listen to, I onlylisten to, let wait, let me
rephrase that.
The only thing I listen to onaudio is nonfiction.
I do, I have trouble withfiction on audio.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (28:25):
Yeah, me too.
Sarah Dickerson (28:26):
So this is one of the culprits of my great
slump of 2025.
It is no more tears.
The Dark Secrets of Johnson andJohnson by Gardner Harris look
also gossipy.
This is an expose of themultiple scandals of the very
well-known company, Johnson andJohnson.
And it's written by apharmaceutical industry reporter
(28:48):
for the New York Times.
And he covered a number ofscandals, some that I was
familiar with, and some thatwere new to me, like the
Johnson's baby powder containingasbestos, which that was new to
me.
I did not know that.
He covered the Tylenol.
Arsenic poisoning scandal, whichI was aware of.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (29:06):
Which there's a documentary about on
Sarah Dickerson (29:08):
Oh, is
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_1 (29:08):
so good.
Sarah Dickerson (29:10):
Oh my God.
Okay, now I'm gonna have to gowatch that.
He talks about marketingdangerous antipsychotics to
children, which I did not knowabout.
And then he also talks about acancer drug that actually makes
tumors grow,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_1 (29:22):
I.
Sarah Dickerson (29:23):
which I did not know about.
I love a book about a scandal,which is not surprising after
this whole conversation todaywhere I've just been talking
about gossip.
You guys, I do other thingsbesides
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (29:33):
yes you do.
You do.
You do.
Sarah Dickerson (29:35):
yeah.
But I heard Al Woodworth, who isone of Amazon books, editors say
that no more tears was likereading Empire of Pain by
Patrick Radden.
Keefe, which I absolutely loved.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (29:49):
Yeah.
Good book.
Sarah Dickerson (29:50):
Like great book, very scandalous, lots of
big revelations, but also reallypropulsive
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (29:55):
Yeah.
It's like a thrilling familydrama.
Sarah Dickerson (29:58):
absolutely.
So that's what I was expectingfrom no more tears.
And there are big revelations inthis book, but it is not
propulsive, sorry.
It is very dry at times, thereis a lot of medical jargon, a
lot of legal jargon, a lot ofreally long names of different
drugs and medications.
And obviously for, not obviously'cause I am not an auditory
(30:22):
learner, but on audio that waseven more difficult for me and
even more dry for me and harderto keep up with.
And I think it's just imaginingI was gonna get Empire of Pain
might've set me up fordisappointment here.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (30:37):
Yeah.
Sarah Dickerson (30:37):
Yeah.
I wish it had been written in amore compelling and accessible
style because I do think it's,it is, while being very dry at
times, very important stuff isin this book.
And I'm glad that it waspublished to get that stuff out
there.
But I just, I wanted it to bemore like that filet mignon.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (30:57):
Yes.
Sarah Dickerson (30:59):
Yeah.
But it's getting great reviewsand if you want denser
nonfiction, it might be for you.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (31:07):
It's unfair too because not only is a
comp empire of pain, but alsothe cover is fun.
It looks like a a baby powderbottle.
Isn't that that something like,that it like.
Sarah Dickerson (31:20):
It's the branding from Johnson's Baby
Powder.
It's like the same font, thesame colors, stuff like that.
And in the little like logospace, it says deception,
corruption, death.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_1 (31:35):
So because it feels, there's
something fun in quotes aboutthat cover, it looks almost
cheeky.
It's setting itself up forsuccess or set.
It's not, it is not, settingitself up for success.
Sarah Dickerson (31:49):
that's not the vibe of the book at all.
I do, however, think the coverwas pretty genius.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (31:54):
Yeah, no, of course.
But
Sarah Dickerson (31:56):
match the vibe of the book, but it is very
clever as far as the brandingand it is simple, yet complex.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (32:03):
Yeah.
Okay.
Noted.
Sarah Dickerson (32:05):
so that's No More Tears by Gardner Harris,
I'm so sorry, but you know thatbook's doing well.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-20 (32:10):
right.
It's doing fine.
as a gift, To help with yournonfiction slump.
Sarah Dickerson (32:15):
Please.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (32:16):
One of my favorite books of the
year, which I did both audio andphysical of simultaneously, is
talk.
The subtitle is The Science ofConversation and The Art of
Being Ourselves by Allison WoodBrooks.
Sarah Dickerson (32:31):
Oh, I have not heard of that.
Okay.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_12 (32:33):
a class about conversation at
Harvard.
And she is so incredible.
She's a great speaker in termsof just she's a Harvard
professor, but her background isin theater and she's just so
warm and accessible.
And particularly for you who,you have conversations for a
living, I was shocked by theamount that I've taken from this
(32:56):
book and that I like still thinkabout daily.
it's so great.
Sarah Dickerson (33:01):
I have conversations for a living, but
they're about a topic I couldtalk about forever.
I am not as great at small talkwhen I can't immediately grab
onto something we have in commonto talk about.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (33:16):
Yeah,
Sarah Dickerson (33:17):
And I could probably, because I am an
introvert at heart, even thoughit probably doesn't feel like
that right
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_12 (33:22):
I would say I am the same.
Sarah Dickerson (33:23):
Yeah.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_12 (33:24):
I get all of my rejuvenation from
being by
Sarah Dickerson (33:27):
Reading.
Yeah,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (33:28):
from reading.
Yes, exactly.
So I highly recommend it and theaudio is very good.
Sarah Dickerson (33:32):
Oh, perfect.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (33:33):
Yeah.
Sarah Dickerson (33:34):
I've been writing on a little notepad the
books you've been telling me.
So I have Book of Luke and Ihave talk.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (33:40):
Yes.
Book of Lu I haven't read yet,but I do It still feels like
something you
Sarah Dickerson (33:45):
Yeah.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
'cause I can get early galleys,so that's helpful for me.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (33:50):
And so finally, what is the book
that you're looking forward to?
Sarah Dickerson (33:54):
The book I'm looking forward to now.
I have not read this yet, but Ihave read her previous book.
I did not have space to sharethis in our fall preview
episode, so I'm thrilled that Ican talk about it here.
And it is nonfiction, so it isobviously a risk for me this
year,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (34:11):
Okay.
Listen.
Sarah Dickerson (34:12):
but.
I have loved her before, so I'mhoping it can help me turn a
corner.
It's Paper Girl, A Memoir ofHome and Family in a Fractured
America by Beth Macy.
Have you heard of Beth Macy?
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (34:26):
No.
Sarah Dickerson (34:27):
Okay.
She wrote Dope Sick.
Have you heard of that?
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (34:31):
Oh, yes.
Sarah Dickerson (34:33):
opioid crisis?
Yeah, so that came out a coupleyears back.
That came out before Empire ofPain, which is also
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (34:39):
Oh, interesting.
Sarah Dickerson (34:41):
And she is now turning to memoir and telling
the story of the changes thather really small hometown of
Urbana, Ohio has gone throughsince she grew up there in the
seventies and eighties.
she grew up fairly poor and wentto college on a Pell Grant
before becoming a journalist.
And in 2020 she began returningto her hometown to take care of
(35:05):
her ailing mother.
So she went, was going backpretty often, and she started to
notice the town's generaldecline.
There was no longer any localnewspaper, which she was.
She delivered the localnewspaper when she was a kid,
hence the book's title.
And there were, the graduationrates were severely declining at
the local high school.
There was a mental healthcrisis, just general economic
(35:28):
decline, all this kind of stuffgoing on.
And so it's a social changestory, but also her personal
story.
And I like when social issuesare written about through a
personal, the lens of a personalstory and.
I will probably listen to thison audio, so hopefully that will
(35:51):
be okay.
And it's coming out October 7th,and that is Paper Girl by Beth
Macy.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (35:57):
Fun.
I say fun thinking
Sarah Dickerson (35:59):
I don't know that this is a
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (35:59):
Oh, no, no, no.
the audio book, because she isprobably reading it and
Sarah Dickerson (36:02):
So she did narrate dope Sick.
So I would imagine she's gonnanarrate her memoir.
Yeah.
And I love memoirs narrated bythe author.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (36:09):
Yes.
Including one of our favorites,the many lives of Mama Love.
Sarah Dickerson (36:13):
Oh my gosh, yes.
Oh did you see that?
I posted on Instagram, I thinkit was like my upcoming guest
post about your episode, and shecommented on it
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (36:22):
did.
I did.
I love her.
Sarah Dickerson (36:24):
and I was like, oh, we talked about you.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (36:27):
And here we are again talking about
her
Sarah Dickerson (36:29):
Yes, we are.
She's one of my all timefavorite interviews that I've
ever done.
And it's not because of me.
It was because of her.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-202 (36:35):
she's amazing.
What a great list of books tohave.
Sarah Dickerson (36:40):
Thank you.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (36:41):
you so much.
Sarah Dickerson (36:42):
thank you for giving me a place to talk about
a couple things that and atleast culpability I'm not going
to be talking about on my
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (36:48):
We, we are here for each other.
Anytime you wanna talk about abook that you don't get to talk
about on your show, come on overand talk about it on
Sarah Dickerson (36:55):
That my co-host steal right from under my
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (36:57):
Yes.
There's always a place for youon gay's reading as a, as an
ally.
Sarah Dickerson (37:01):
Thank you.
I appreciate you having me.
This has been so fun.
My face hurts from laughing andsmiling so
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_ (37:06):
Oh, I'm so glad.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Everybody go check out Sarah'sbookshelves live.
You're all over the place.
You're on Instagram, you haveyour website, you have your
show, you have your Patreon,your Substack.
You're where aren't you
Sarah Dickerson (37:21):
I'm not super big on Facebook,
jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025 (37:23):
Sure Nor on
Sarah Dickerson (37:24):
Also, I wanna plug.
Your visit to my podcast, whichaired on September 17th.
so you can go to my feed andhear Jason talk about what it's
like to interview authors.
And we, that's a two-wayconversation'cause we both
interview authors and he alsotalks about what it's like to
(37:44):
produce a literary festival.
And then he shares his picks inthe format that we just did
today.
jason-blitman_1_09-11-20 (37:51):
Again, thank you for being here.
Everyone, if you like whatyou're hearing, share us with
your friends.
Follow us on social media atGays Reading.
Check us out on YouTube and allthe things and all the places,
and I'll see you next time.
Bye.
Sarah Dickerson (38:02):
you.
Bye, Jason.
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