Austin Taylor (Notes on Infinity) feat. Nicola Dinan, Guest Gay Reader

Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Gaze reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what andwhy.
Anyone can listen Comes we arespoiler free.
Reading from stars to book clubpicks we're the curious minds
can get their picks.
Say you're not gay.

(00:24):
Well that's okay there somethingeveryone.
Hello and welcome to Gay'sReading.
I'm your host Jason Blitman, andit is a very sad day in the
world of books as we lost EdmundWhite, whom the New York Times

(00:44):
aptly called a pioneer of gayliterature.
I.
If you're not familiar with him,his work carved out space for
queer lives on the page withhonesty, wit, and unflinching
intimacy.
Just three weeks ago, I had thehonor of recording an episode of
Gazed Reading with him where hetalks about his latest memoir,
the Loves of My Life, andreflected on his legacy.

(01:06):
This was supposed to come out ina few weeks, but as a special
tribute, I'll be airing theepisode tomorrow on a happier
note On today's episode, I talkto debut author Austin Taylor
about her new novel, which isbeing compared to tomorrow, and
Tomorrow and tomorrow calledNotes on Infinity.
And my guest gay reader isNicola Dinan, who talks to me
about what she's been reading aswell as her book disappoint me.

(01:29):
Make sure to check out the Gazereading Instagram for a special
announcement about this book.
Both Austin and Nicolas bios arein the show notes.
Okay, so we just talked aboutInstagram.
You could also watch thisepisode over on YouTube.
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And make sure that you'resubscribing wherever you get
your podcasts so that you'll bethe first to know when a new

(01:50):
episode drops.
And if you haven't heard yet,there's a Gaze Reading Pride
Guide on.
Bunch of fabulous books to buyover on the Substack.
It's free, and if you're soinclined, you can get a paid
subscription for less than theprice of a coffee and support
this gay indie podcast.
There's gays reading merch.
I just got my gay readersweatshirt in the mail.

(02:11):
There are a is for Allyt-shirts, a whole bunch of super
fun stuff.
Make sure to check that out.
The links do all of the thingsyou could find in the show
notes, but also in the link treeon Instagram.
And now please enjoy myconversations with Austin Taylor
and Nicola Dinan.

Jason Blitman (02:31):
there are so many things I am looking forward to
talking to you about includingthe book, but you're, wait,
where is it?
Your bio.

Austin Taylor (02:39):
Okay.

Like literally it is on the inside cover of the
galley.
So

yeah.

at the very beginning.

All right.

even said the title.
It's notes on Infinity.
Graduate of Harvard

Mm-hmm.

Degrees in Chemistry and English, a public
speaking coach, a private pilot,a main guide.

Mm-hmm.

A bassist.
I see a bicycle behind you.

Yep.

I see a flourishing plant behind you.
I see the base.
And per Instagram, you're aboutto go to law school

I am.

school.

Yeah.
I'm about to law school.

Girl,

Gotta keep busy.

I am so impressed.

Oh, thank you.

How do

you.

keep it all straight in your brain?
I'm ask, this is I'm askingpersonally,'cause I have, I
just, I need to know

Uh

How

uh,

Sane?

no, I think it helps me stay sane.
I liked having a lot of thingsgoing on.
I'm really excited actually tostart law school because I'm
sure you have heard many writerssay this, but writing can be
very isolating.
And I've now been writingessentially full-time for, I.
A little over a year, and Ispend a lot of time right here

(03:58):
by myself.
And like my roommate isfantastic and I'll emerge and
she'll know that it's becauseI'm like starved for
socialization and I need her tojust sit down with me at the
dining table and have some teaand have, a real human instead
of just

spill some

My it spill some tea.
Yeah.
She has to spill tea from likethe real people that she
interacts with every day.
'cause I don't interact withanyone.

right.
You're About the outside world.

exactly.
I'm like some, something someonedid today that I didn't make up
in my head and write down.
And I think law school will beawesome because I'll actually
have other people know.
But in all seriousness, I thinkthat I love to write about.
My to write about my experiencesis too direct.
Like I don't, it's notautobiography, but I like to

(04:45):
write from the places that Iinhabit.
And notes on Infinity, as is alot about Harvard.
And that comes from my timethere.
And so I'm excited to be goingand doing a new thing so that I
can write about law school.

write about it.

Exactly.

You could

Exactly.

just do a lot of research.

Yeah.

You don't have to actually go and matriculate.

Oh no, I think it'll be good.
I also, I'm like interested inthe law,

want to practice law?
Do you want to be a lawyer?

so I don't know what exactly that will look
like.
For me I'm really interested in,so before I started writing, I
studied chemistry and Englishand I was really interested in
like the interface betweenscience and tech and society.
So I was interested in likescience policy, bioethics.
I had planned to go to lawschool actually.
I was admitted and then deferredfor like long story, but for

(05:39):
health reasons.
And while I was on that healthrelated deferral, I started
writing and then, the rest is

Mm-hmm.

But I am still really interested in like
science and tech and society,which is also reflected in the
book.

Yeah.

and I.
Started writing at the same timechat GBT emerged.
And so I'm really interested ingenerative AI regulation.
And so I am hoping to, as anattorney have have a little bit
more of a seat at the table aswe think about guardrails on
generative artificialintelligence to protect art and

(06:17):
artists.

Oh,

so yeah.

And I imagine because much is new and emerging
and changing and evolving.
You don't even know what

Exactly.

is or what your future's gonna look like.
'cause you know the space ischanging.

Exactly.
For sure.
Yeah.

Oh, that's so cool.
My husband has a degree inchemistry from Boston

Ah, very cool.

Doesn't work in chemistry.
He works in tech and

Yep.

says that it was working in a lab that like
taught him how to problem solve.
Um, So it's always I'm and hehas.
Threatened going to law school.
He's threatened, going to gethis MBA.

Yeah.

it's so fascinating'cause like has
learned to knit and he has done,like he is also a, jack of all
trades.
And so you talking about all ofthe things that you do obviously
knowing my husband, this doesn'tsurprise me.

Yeah

anyway, it's all very interesting.
Okay.
This is your first.
Podcast for notes on Infinity.

it's,

I texted Chris Whitaker earlier today to tell
him I was talking to you.

yeah.

said to say hello.

Uh, He is so nice.
He is so.

he said, I love that book.
Say hello for me.
I said, I will.

He's so kind.
He like was the first person to,actually, he was the second
blurb that came in I think now,I can't remember.
But he like was the first personto be in touch with me over
Instagram and I was sostarstruck.
I like didn't know what to sayto him.
I was like, how do I talk tothis person?
I love your books.

(07:55):
I don't know what to do.
You're reading.
And then he sent me, it was sokind, so I knew he was reading

Yeah.

me like in the middle a passage that he really
liked.
And was it just like I, it wassomething just yes, or like
exclamation point or something.
And I was like,

I love him so

I know.
It was a moment.

I love that.
He says hello.
You have not perfected, althoughyou went to Harvard and you seem
like the kind of person who'svery prepared.
I was gonna say, you've notperfected your elevator pitch
for the book yet but now is yourtime to workshop it.

Okay.
Okay.
I think it's okay.
I, like I do because I, peopleask what the book is about and
so I do have to tell'em.
So no song Infinity.

when you're like, at dinner with your family and
your What are you working on?
You're

Exactly.

let me tell you.

If you only knew.
Yeah, it is.
That is exactly what it's, I waslike very recently at, sorry,
side sidetrack.
I was very recently at a, at aRuby Tuesday with all of my
aunts.
I'm from Central Main, so likein the middle of nowhere.
And they they're always reallyexcited to get all the updates
and I brought them.
And they were so excited.

(09:10):
It was adorable.

That.
Did everybody get the salad bar?
I just have this image of gonnaRuby Tuesday with my grandmother
and like we

Huh

the salad bar.
All, that's, anyway, that's all.

Yes.
Yes.
Anyway, so yes.
Elevator pitch.
Notes on Infinity is about twoyoung Harvard students in
chemistry.
Jack and Zoe, who are fiercecompetitors, turned
collaborators and they develop anew kind of anti-aging drug and
they drop out form a startup andachieve dazzling success.

(09:42):
The book is about ambition andbetrayal and the things that we
do for the people we love.

Love.
The very, very beginning of thebook, okay.
Not actually the very, verybeginning of the book.
The first chapter, And thenthere's a first chapter.
The first chapter of the booksays there are two types of
students in the first semesterof organic chemistry.
Those who arrive 10 minutesearly and sit primly in the
second row notebook out in casethe professor.
Lets go of any wisdom before theclock strikes the hour, and

(10:13):
those who jog in four minuteslate, unshared and unshaven with
no bag and no notebook and slumpinto a seat at the end of the
aisle.
Which one are you?

Oh, I am.

I love

I,

you like didn't know where I was going with

No I didn't un unfortunately, I am the first,
but I don't like to sit in thefront, so I will be sitting in
the back, but I will be therereally early and I will have my
notebook and I'll have done allthe reading.
Yeah, I know.
I'm embarrassed to say,

You do, you did go to Harvard.
It's fine.
I know.
Were you one of those people whowas like, I went to school in
Cambridge?

I've gotten called out on that so many times
recently I've been like doingthe law school interview rounds
and they, people are like, oh,like, where you meet other
admins or you meet other peoplewho are interviewing and they're
like, oh, like, where'd you goto school?
And I, yeah, I reflexively dothe oh, the Boston area just
makes me sound like more of ajerk,

Yeah.
Where do you,

but it's okay.

Is it, I don't, not shame there.
It can't be shame, but is itlike a weird pride thing?
Is it privilege?
Is it,

I think it's so it's interesting because
people's reactions, so when I gohome again, central Maine, like
rural people have weirdreactions anywhere from oh, you
must be a genius to oh, that'ssuch a waste of money, to oh,
like that's the seat of, likeliberal demon hood or whatever.
And so on that side of things,like that's why yeah, all the

(11:41):
above.
But then with people, not athome, I think it's because I,
like you don't wanna seem likeyou're throwing it in someone's
face.
And so then you try to not, butthat's just as bad,

Yeah I'm, I am because I just had a Harvard
Business School professor on,and we talk a little bit about
not saying Harvard.

The H word.

She talks about being an HBS professor and I'm
like, I have a degree intheater, so it couldn't be
farther away from HBS.
So I'd

Yeah.

fascinating.

Also, everything at Harvard is acronyms, so like

oh,

we, they, we speak in acronyms all the time,
which I think is by nature,exclusionary, like it's, you're
creating this inner languagethat other people don't
understand, but which issomething that, the book tries
to grapple with that sort ofthing a little bit.
I think.

no, the the book, obviously there's grapples with
a lot of things.
Among them is, a femaleprofessor wanting to

Mm-hmm.

Students, and that feels like cheating.
I.
For the student.

Yeah.

wait a minute, am I actually who you want to be
mentoring?
Or are you only mentoring mebecause, I'm a woman?
There's so much about the ideaof science being tied up in
maleness, and I think there's aline in the book that says
something like, the character ofthe scientist is inherently
male, Far more articulate thanthat, but something
conceptually,

thank you.

how did.
How does, what does it mean tobe a woman in science for you?

Yeah.
Wow.

Let me Basic, simple question, direct,
succinct question.

Yeah,

could have an entire hour long conversation
about that.

for sure.
Yeah, so I think so first ofall, I think in the past I don't
even know, 20, 30 years, it hasgotten just immeasurably better,
like the change.
I just from knowing, femalementors and professors who came
up through.
10, 15, 20 years ago.
I just think that we are solucky to have made so much

(13:48):
progress.
I'm lucky that they did the workto make that much progress.
And so it's less that I saidthis the other day to someone,
it's less that like women aren'tinvited to the party anymore.
It's like women are now invited,but there are still people at
the party who.

(14:08):
Were there before women gotinvited, and they're not crazy
about the change.
And so I think that there'sstill can be some like tension.
And then also I think, I don'tthink I know women are still a
minority in these spaces andthat's just a fact, right?
And that changes the way thatthe spaces feel.
And then also as I, as youmentioned, and I talk about

(14:31):
quite a bit in the book.
I think that the culture ofscience is just super male.
Like it's very much the dragold, like work all the time.
No social skills, like you don'tdo anything but you're science
'cause you're a genius and youare allowed to do that.
And I think that's just notsomething that women have to.

(14:54):
Be t uh, like socially and theyhave to look a certain way and
they have to in general act acertain way and they don't get
to go be the mad scientist offlike in the lab all day and all
night.
And so it's just, it's a culturething.
It's funny what my roommate andI were talking the other day
about the way that PI principalinvestigators, so people that
run labs at like Harvard or MTor whatever dress and how most

(15:19):
male PIs are like super casualand.
Most female PIs, at least in myexperience, are like very well
dressed and very well puttogether.
And that's just like a sillylittle example.
But I do think that it isillustrative of there is a
different set of expectationsfor women as opposed to men.

a silly example at all.
No, I mean it's it is a very itis a day-to-day sort of

Yeah.

right?

Yeah.

think about what we're gonna wear when we.

Right.

Our day?

Unless you don't have to.
Unless you don't have to thinkabout it.
'cause no one cares.

We all have to put some clothes on

Yeah, no.
True.
True.

and so some people have to think about it
and some people don't,

Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So

Yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting.

yeah.

Is there anything that, like a, to a lay person,
you would be like, I would loveevery person to know this about.
A lab about being a woman in alab or about, do you know what I
mean?
Like I don't, it's such a randomquestion, but getting a little
bit of insight to yourexperience.
And I don't mean to it at all.

So I guess a sort of anecdote.
Maybe that's helpful.
So I was really lucky in my labwork, so I did work in a lab at
Harvard.
I did heterogeneous, catalysis.
Not that means anything toanyone.

Means literally nothing.

that's fine.
I was really lucky.
I worked for a incredible femaleprofessor and pi who actually,
Cynthia Friend, who actually wasthe first full female full
professor of chemistry atHarvard.
She is.
Amazing scientist, amazingteacher, amazing mentor.
I look up to her a lot.

(16:58):
And so I guess one, one liketidbit of that is that my pi, so
like one as it were generationremoved was the first full
professor of chemistry atHarvard.
So it just has not been thatlong I think is the takeaway
point there.
And then,

that's like exactly.

yeah.

I, and I don't wanna say that's what I was
hoping for.
That's such so ridiculous.
But that was absolutely, Iassumed there was something like

Yeah.
Yeah.
And then I guess second point onthat is that for that reason, I
think I had a great experience.
I had lots of women mentors,Like postdocs and PhD students
who were women in the lab, likeit was.
It didn't feel like a genderissue at all for me.
But one of my close friends isdid work in a lab in which she

(17:42):
was the only woman period.
Like she was the, she was anundergrad, but there were no
women PhD students and no womenpostdocs in the PI was a man.
And so there was this incrediblephoto.
She's it wasn't a big deal, butthere's this incredible photo of
her, of the lab and it's 20 men.

Wow.

that also is still a thing.

Yeah.

so,

Ish a common number too?
Is that the size of a lab?

oh, it totally varies.
Some labs are like, some labsare like five people.
Some labs are like 40 people.
It depends on how much work isbeing done, how much funding is
getting drawn in.
Yeah.

Yeah.
Yeah.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaking of what you're doing in no sound,
infinity,

Very nice.
Is it pretty?
I love the cover

I know they, as you said in your elevator pitch
they come up with an anti-agingdrug.
And in turn there's a lot oftalk about death And what
mortality and aging means.
And there's something veryinteresting about the concept of
death being everybody's thing.
That pops up in the book.
And how nature is just trying tokill everybody every day.

(18:48):
What was that like?
Did writing the book just giveyou an existential crisis every
day?

I maybe would put it like maybe I was already
having an existential crisis.

Fair?

I was just writing about it.

an existential crisis?

working through something.
Yeah, I don't need therapy.
I just write I don't know.
But did the book give me anexistential crisis?
I don't think a book gave me anexistential crisis for that
reason.
It may be maybe for otherreasons, but I think that,
everybody thinks a decent amountabout dying and death.
I have had quite a few familymembers, like un unluckily or I

(19:26):
guess luckily that I have a bigextended family who I'm very
close to past, like in the past,I don't know, 5, 5, 10 years.
And so I've thought a lot aboutdeath like everybody else.
And then also I think that it's.
Becoming more and more of athing in the science space, this
sort of line of longevityresearch, the science space and
the pseudoscience space.
So like this line of longevityresearch and then also of like

(19:49):
longevity behavior that like weshould, things you should be
like, supplements you should betaking or exercise you should be
doing or whatever.
So I was really interested in itin that sense.
But yeah, no I think I only hada normal amount of existential
crisis at the.

Got it.
Totally fully understand.
Did it, did writing the bookreframe your understanding or
your feelings about mortality?

One of the things that I was thinking about a lot
as I was writing was I wasinterested in writing about a
sort of quest for immortalitybecause it's very old story and
I wanted to.
Play with a very old story, witha very new framework or new
setting.
So like biotech uh, is kind ofperhaps as shiny and modern as

(20:38):
you can get.
And then this very old,Gilgamesh or like Nicholas Lamel
like philosopher stone typething right?
Is very ancient, very feels verymythological.
And so I was really interestedin exploring that, but then I
was also really interested in itbecause I wanted to think about
the different ways that wepursue immortality.
One of those in the book isobviously literally like we're

(21:01):
trying to live forever.
But the other is through legacy,right?
Like when you are a scientistand you discover something that
changes the way we understand.
Biology, particularly like humanbiology.
You've, you've changed theworld.
Like you've changed the courseof humanity and that is also a
form of immortality andsomething that I think at least

(21:23):
one of the characters in thebook, I won't uh, you're very
antis, spoiler.
I won't.
Name names.
At least one of the charactersin the book is very attached to
that idea of having changed theworld and having that kind of
immortality.
And so I don't know, it like,did it change?
Of course it changed the way Ithought about mortality because

(21:44):
I spent so much time likethinking about kind of these
interwoven, like living foreverliterally versus living forever
through your legacy versus etcetera, et cetera.
Have a punchy like, and now I.
I'm okay with dying but I didthink a lot about it.

have been nice?

Yeah, that would've been great.
That would've been great, but Idid not expect that to happen,

yeah, that's fair.
Honestly, when our, if ourexpectations are met, that's all
that really matters.
And you were, that was not thethought.
What would you want your legacyto be?

Oh gosh.
It's funny, I, so I like writethis character who's really
obsessed with legacy, but Idon't, I care a lot more about
people who are alive when I'malive.
Like I care a lot more aboutimpacting people if who are in
front of me than I do about likedown the line.
Like having, so

you wanna know you're having an impact on them.

Yeah.
That makes it sound reallyselfish, but I don't know.
I just, I have no, I don't thinkthat so obviously I'm trying,
I'm a writer.
I'm like trying to be a writer.
I really want to reach peoplewith my work.
I really want my work to affectpeople in some way.
But I have no it has never evencrossed my mind that like people

(22:55):
will keep reading my stuff afterI'm dead.
Like I will be lucky if peopleare still reading notes on
Infinity in three years.
So

that's

and that will be awesome.

Yeah.
Yeah.

So.

No I, I appreciate that mentality.
I think I was just having aconversation with an author
earlier today about, aboutliving in the present, And I
think that is a, the nucleus

Yeah.

that, right?

Yeah.

you want, you just want people to read your
work

Yeah.

Hopefully that's while you're alive, so that they
could

Yeah.

it is.

Yeah, because that is all I, please validate
me.
That's really what this isabout.

Exactly.
it had me thinking a lot aboutmortality, reading the book and
just thinking about, without anend, what would we be,

Mm-hmm.

And is mortality.
The defining variable ofhumanity that those are
existential questions.
They're not,

Yeah.
So it's really interesting.
I had this conversation.
With a professor.
So when I was a sophomore incollege, I went and met with
this really famous biologyprofessor at Harvard.
He was very old and I asked himlike, what would you be working
on now if you were a youngscientist?

(24:12):
What do you like essentially,what do you think this sort of
next big thing is, as it were?

interesting question.

And he said, thank you.
And he.
I would be trying to figure outwhat it is that makes us human.
And he meant that in the contextof crispr, so gene editing, he
was really like concerned thatnow that we can alter what we
are biologically, we figure outwhat it is that we care about

(24:40):
and that makes us what we are inorder to not.
Um, Through.
Gene editing and I was likefloored by that conversation.
And I think that applies to alot of cutting edge tech right
now.

(25:01):
Gene editing included, but alsolike artificial intelligence,
also longevity and anti-aging.
And that was the idea that I wastrying to get out with what, if
we don't die anymore are westill human?
Are we human in a different way?
Are we not human at all?
Are we human in the same way?
Like maybe it doesn't matter.
I don't have any answer to thatquestion.

(25:22):
I don't know that we could havean answer to that question
unless it happened, but I dothink that it is like both
interesting and also perhapsimportant if these kinds of.
Drugs are something that we dodevelop in the future.
And I'm, I make, no, I make nostatement.
I don't work in this space.
Like I the science is fictionit's possible.

Yeah.
And it's funny'cause one of mynext bullet points to talk to
you about is the concept of.
What we value Being human.
Wrote in parentheses, page 64,and I just turned to it.
'cause I was like, is thisexactly what we're

Yeah.

right

Uhhuh.

it is exactly Right now.

yeah,

Oh, that's so interesting.
But yeah I had me thinking a lotabout all of these things.

yeah.

There is something important I want to
talk to you about.
Jack, the character Doesn't likethe film when Harry met Sally.

Yeah.

Is that true for you?

Oh,

And

have

be honest.
I wanna hear all the things.
This is a safe space I pro.
I will not hang up on you

okay.
Okay.
Is there anything I should knowabout your relationship with
this?

No.
If this was, you've got mail,we'd have a different
conversation.
But

Okay.

Sally, I'm just very curious about,

Okay.

really like you.

So I that's great.
Thank you.
I feel really, yeah, I feelreally safe.
I have a good friend and he andI have a book club actually,
except the book club is likevery expansive and it includes
movies and albums also.
And we, I had watched.

club is that, that's not a book club.

It started as a book club and then it like
became it's a, it's the funkind.
No, he, I had watched Annie Halland was like, oh, like you gotta
watch this movie.
And he was like you gotta watchWhen Harry met Sally.
And then of course when Iwatched, when Harry met Sally, I
was like, this is just likeAnnie Hall, but different.
And so anyway, so we have this,but it's like his favorite
movie.

(27:18):
And so we had this argumentabout it because here's what I
don't like about this film.
Can I spoil when Harry Met Sallyon this podcast?
Okay.

think, I think you can't because who can spoil
the

Okay.

Yes, you could share whatever you want about
when Harry Mets

Okay.
When, so I love, first of all, Ilove the movie.
Like I loved watching the movieand I have this like star rating
for things, for everything formovies and books, et cetera.
It's zero stars, one star or twostars.
Zero stars is I consume thisthing.
One star is I thought it wasgood and I might recommend it to
someone.
And two stars is it made me likeI was like, this is like what

(27:53):
art should be.
And it's two stars.
Like I really loved the movie.
However, the scene where theysleep together afterwards, she
is like.
simpering up at Harry Sally islike, simpering up at Harry.
And Harry, there's the iconicstill of Harry's like laying in
bed, like looking at the ceilingand she's oh, like I love you.

(28:16):
I was so angry at that scenebecause it felt so genuinely out
of character for Sally one andtwo.

Yeah.

She knew there was a, there's a whole bit of
dialogue about men hate.
Like after you have sex, likemen don't wanna sleep with like
sleep, actually sleep with youand that's your problem is like
you don't understand that orwhatever.
Like they have this conver, Ithink it's on the plane.
They have this conversation andso she knows what he's thinking

(28:46):
and she's still all pathetic.
Like it infu, it enraged me.
And so that's,

This is so fair.

so that's my critique of when Harry met
Sally.

Okay.

but Jack's critique of when Harry met
Sally, ha has more to

critique about her, Jack's critique about

fair.

Harry met,

I think that would, I think uh, there's a
reason that movie getsreferenced, not spoil.

My least favorite thing is someone telling me they
have strong feelings aboutsomething and then not being
able to articulate thosefeelings.
So I.
Have whatever feelings that youhave, and the fact that you were
able to share them with me isall that matters, and I thank
you for that.

I hope I was convincing.
And.

it doesn't make any it's so infuriating to watch
a character do something that isso out of the realm of what the
storyteller has been telling youall

Yes.
Yes.
And okay, maybe it's like I,love gets the best of all of it.
I don't know.
I don't know, but like I was notimpressed.

Interesting.
I, it wouldn't surprise me ifsomebody had a counter argument,
so let's, we'll hold space forthe counter argument of why
Sally maybe that, what she did.

Yeah.
Feel free to like roast me inthe comments or however this
works.

Send an email,

yeah.

you want it to

Message me.
I'm on Instagram, AustinTaylors, and I would be so happy
to argue.

What's hilarious is I so wish my husband was on
this call with us because hestudied chemistry but

Yeah.

when Harry Metz all.
So I am, soon as we hang up, I'mgonna pitch this to him and I'm
gonna see what he says.
I should record his response.

Please.
Yes.

funny.

tell me what he says.
Yeah.

Were you a too serious kid?

Too serious.
Almost.
Definitely.

That comes up in the book, the concept of being a
too serious

Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think I.
My parents read me a lot ofEdgar Allen Poe when I was
really young, and I think thatmight've ruined me early.

my God.
Okay.
I

yeah,

I'm fascinated with death and mortality.

yeah.
No, that's

okay.

to be funny, but is also true.
No, but I do think I was veryserious and very quiet and very
introverted and very 10 going on30.
So yeah, think, I think thatline is about Zoe being a too
serious kid.
I think that she gets that fromme, as it were, comes by it
rightly.

There are a series of questions that come up
in the book about learning aboutother people.
I can't remember if it was thecontext of being on a date or
something.
But one of them is how does yourmind work?
How would you say your mindworks?

I don't know.
I wish I could tell you.
Well, But I think, I thinkthat's one of those things that
you you can't really ever knoweven about yourself because you
have no point of comparison.
Like you don't.
I can't I can't get inside yourhead, so I don't know.
It might be really weird inhere.
I don't know.

like a rubric of like, oh, are you

Yeah,

Or, oh, are

right,

Or,

right.

Do you,

Yeah,

know.
Ruminating and overthinking ourversions of the same thing.
So I think we can start to seewhat my mind, how my brain

I, yeah, we're getting somewhere with you.

Let me overthink about this for a minute.

No, but I think that line is in the context of
yeah, it, it's not a date, butit feels like a date.
And I think that when you'refalling in love with someone,
you you feel like you know howtheir mind works and maybe you
don't.

Another one of these questions is, what do you
believe in?

Mm-hmm.
Are you asking me?

Yes.

um, Oh God.
Uh,

Well, And what's so fascinating to me is that
that is so broad.
Right.
It's like

yeah.

Women in science.
I'm like, what the hell?
Kind of questions am I askingyou?

How am I doing?
Like.

No, you're doing great.
It's just, it's so funny'causeI'm usually the one who comes in
and I'm like, there's this onerandom, very specific thing that
I want to talk to you about.
And meanwhile here I am likethis really broad, open-ended
topic,

Run with it.

run with it.
I find it interesting like.
As a concept asking someone,what do you

Yeah.

in or where do you, where?
And I think that could beinterpreted in a lot of
different ways, right?
Like, where are your morals?
What is important to you?
What do you stand for?

Yeah.

that's how I interpret the question.
Less so like Claus,

Right.
She's very uh,

some people might,

Yeah.
So I think, again, these twocharacters are like getting to
know each other very, they feellike they're getting to know
each other very quickly as youdo when you are.

You and

Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
We're, We're tight.

But That's like sort of my point,

Yeah.

here, we're 40 minutes into our conversation
and like getting into the meatand potatoes

Right,

The meaning of life is and what do In, right?
Like That's part of what I findso Like getting into it,

yeah.
I think the characters, thecharacters really believe in
what they're doing.
And I think that is like theybelieve in science.
I, there are people who, so Icouldn't have been a scientist.
Like I studied chemistry.
I really liked it, but Icouldn't have been a lab
scientist.
And maybe your husband has thesame experience.
Because like I think to be agood lab scientist, you have to

(34:33):
like.
You have to love what you'redoing and you have to believe
that like you're gettingsomewhere Believe in getting
there.
First and discovering somethingnew and laying eye.
Like I've heard scientists talkabout like how just profound it
is to them to know somethingthat no one has known before.

(34:53):
And to contribute that to thebody of human knowledge.
And I.
I can conceptualize how thatwould be profound.
Like I can understand that wouldbe profound for someone.
But it's not for me, but what'sprofound for me is like reading
or consuming art that like makesme feel, I.

(35:13):
Human Or makes me recognize myhumanity and something else.
And making art that makes mefeel human or makes me feel like
I'm communicating somethingabout the human experience.
And so I guess, what do youbelieve in?
I'm getting closer tier to like.
Maybe what someone would callpassion.

(35:35):
But I think taking passion to,to a more existential level, but
you end up at belief maybe

Interesting.
Is do, is there like somethingin between, do you think?

in between passion and belief.

right?

I don't know.
Maybe is maybe a spectrum.
I Have a good answer to that.

like never really thought about it in that way and
I think that's superinteresting.
I to pursue a passion so hardand deeply that like it turns
into something that you believein.

Yeah.
Maybe you'd do anything for itat that point is something that
the characters of course,grapple with.

Yeah.
Speaking of grappling with,there's the question of, or the
frustration that people aren'tasking the quote big questions
anymore.

Yeah.

are some of the big questions to you?
What does that mean or what aresome big questions that you
have?

So what I mean by that in particular is that
science, and this is again oneof the reasons why I couldn't
have been a scientist, is likescience now, because it's so
specialized, because we've madeso much progress that in order
to do anything to make anyprogress, you have to go into a
niche inside of a niche, insideof a niche, inside of a niche.

(36:47):
And you're working on like thisone, membrane protein in this
one cell type, and you wannafigure out like how it folds
differently in differentsituations.
And that might have some reallybroad application that we don't
know about yet, but like theresearch itself is

was gonna be like, what the hell is that for?

No.
Like we don't know.
Maybe it does something.
Maybe it doesn't, but likeyou've understood more about
that thing and like thatabstractly has value.
So like when Zoe and Jack arelike, no one's asking the big
questions, they're like, wewanna work on.
During death or like we like wewanna work on like the, like in
the sort of cowboy glory days ofscience when we were like
figuring out the structure ofDNA and like

is

out, right?
Yeah.
But these were like really bigthings and they're really like.
Like earth shatter, likeparadigm shifting.
If you want to take some likecoon, theory of scientific
revolutions maybe is the book,but like he has this thing that
he talks Yeah.
He talks about like how, scienceis like little itty bitty steps
and then all of a sudden it'sone thing and it's like that

(37:51):
just blows up everything and wehave this new hole.

Yeah,

of ourselves, right?
Ourselves.
And so the big questions arelike those big,

uhhuh.

can we not die?
Or what is it that makes ushuman?
Like these are the sort of bigquestions that I think are like,
are interesting.
I am interested in,

is it that makes us human?
That was something that you'dsaid, a scientist that you

yeah, exactly.
Yeah.

Do you have one of those big questions On the

I.

or that you like, I, I don't know what are, what's
a big question for you?
And it could, I guess itdoesn't.

I've been thinking a lot.
Yeah.
That's all I got.
I've been thinking a lot about,I, I told you that I am
interested in working onartificial intelligence.
And so I have been thinking alot about what is art?
What makes art and to me.

question.

Yeah.
To me that has a lot to do withwhat makes us human.
Uh, And so I, I don't think it'sdivorced, but I, yeah I think
it's a really importantquestion, especially as we are
able to produce things that looklike human made art, that were
not made by humans.

(39:03):
I think we need to.
What does that mean?
Is that art anymore?
So that's my big question.

question.
Yes.
I'm glad I forced you to asksomething.
So this episode is out in June.
Your Which is Pride Month.
Of

yes.
Happy bride.

Happy Ride.
What does it mean?
What does allyship mean to you?
What does it mean to be a goodally?

not to be a downer but I've been thinking a
lot about how at a time likethis, when marginalized
communities, especially theLGBTQ plus community are, having
their rights.
Threatened it is more importantthan ever for people who have
privilege to speak up.

(39:48):
And so I think to me, being anally means being that person who
speaks up.
And then also I think notes onFinn is a lot about fitting in
or not fitting in at a placelike Harvard.
And I think that.
It is really important that weall work to make sure that those

(40:08):
spaces and similar spaces aresafe and welcoming for everybody
all the time.

I love that.
Thank you.
I suddenly am like asking thisquestion is very uh, so whatcha
gonna do for us, huh?

Oh, no,

that's

not at all.
Please.

The book touches on what it means to be in the
fringes.
The kids who were on the edgesof things, the angry kids, the
hungry kids, the potheads.
And I think so much of the booktoo is about being seen.
You were an overachiever, youare an overachiever.
You were the early bird toclass.

(40:49):
But I think even still.
There's value in being seen.
Who was there someone in yourlife that was formative in
seeing you?

Oh, that's a great question.
So when I got to Harvard, I Iwas an overachiever, but I also
felt very out of place.
I grew up in a place that's verydifferent.
Like I write about the placethat I grew up in rural central
Maine.
And I had a lot of privilege,but I also grew up in rural

(41:23):
central Maine.
I went to public school.
And when I got to Harvard, itfelt like everybody else already
knew each other.
They already knew how to.
Exist in that space.
They already knew like whatlevers to pull to get the things
that they wanted.
And I didn't I didn't knowanyone.
I didn't know how to navigate,et cetera.
And so I spent a lot of myfreshman year thinking that I,

(41:47):
yeah, I just didn't belong.
Feeling there was something likewrong with me.
I was pretty depressed.
I didn't have any friends.
And then at the end of myfreshman year, I met someone at,
this is like such a weird, sothere, it doesn't exist anymore,
but you used to be able to workat Harvard cleaning dorms.
It was called Dorm Crew.

(42:07):
And you would, I'm being totallyserious.
And you would like scrubtoilets.

on.
I love that you say used to asthough you went to school there
decades

No, no, No.
But listen, it don't.

Oh.
I thought, okay.
I thought That stopped justbefore you got there, and I'm
like, girl

no.
Oh I'm old.
I'm 26.
Um,

Bye.
Okay,

feel old

back in the day, they used

back in the day.
Right?
My day at Harvard.
They ain't what it used to be,but they used to have dorm crew
and so this was this job thatyou could hold and people did it
because it paid pretty well, butyou literally scrubbed freshman
dorm toilets during the year.
And then at the end of the year,there's this special week or two
week long thing where you clean.
The freshman dorms becauseHarvard reunions houses alum in

(43:07):
the freshman dorms as like athrowback, let's all live for a
week where we like got drunk oras 18 year olds.
Not for me anyway.
People do this so you, they haveto clean the dorms in this like
very short amount of time.
So a bunch of Harvard studentsget paid$20 an hour, which was a
lot to me at the time To likescrub disgusting.

(43:28):
Like you, if you've never beenin college, dorms after college,
freshmen have left them.
Like it's a level of gross thatyou.
Wouldn't comprehend like thethings that I found in the store
anyway.
And I met this guy, so that's awhole just backstory.
But I met this guy while I wasdoing this and it was like it

(43:52):
was like I suddenly felt seen.
I was like, oh my God.
Like this person is so much likeme.
We didn't really have thatsimilar backgrounds.
He had gone.
To a private high school, butlike public school before that
men like had been on scholarshipat the high school.
He was from Pennsylvania, but itjust felt like he also felt like

(44:13):
an outsider, and so we both werea little bit like, oh, like this
other person also doesn't fitin.
And so we stuck together.
and we became really, really, hewas like my first.
I think real friend at Harvardand we became really close and
we're still really close, and infact we're so close that he
visits my parents without mesometimes.

Oh my God.
I love that.

I know.
He is he's like a sibling now tome.
And he I, I genuinely wouldcredit him with like bringing me
out of this sort of insular,like I'm all alone at Harvard.
First year that I had.

Oh, what's his

Yeah, his name is Cecil.
Shout out to Cecil

to Cecil.

if you're listening.
I'm gonna make him listen nowbecause he'll be he'll be so
mortified.
He

It's okay.
There's no,

he

had to clean those dorms.
Everything's uphill from there.

glory days dorm crew glory days.
Yeah.
So thanks Cecil.

Oh my God, Austin, the fact that you think
almost 26 is old.
I feel you.
I feel you.
I feel you.
Notes on Infinity.
Austin Taylor, congratulations.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you for having me.
This is so much fun.
You made my first podcastepisode so pain free.
I appreciate it.

that way.
Have a wonderful rest of yourday.

you too.
Thanks so much.

Thank you so much.

Harper! (45:40):
Guest Gay Reader time!

how are you today?

Nicola Dinan (45:44):
I am doing well.
Um, I mean, it's so nice to dowhen, uh, when.
Disappoint me was coming out inthe uk it was sort of January.
and so when I was doingafternoon interviews it was just
completely dark or getting dark,but it's amazing'cause it's now
so bright here at 7:00 PM um,and it doesn't look like it.

(46:04):
It's nice and sunny.
Sorry.
It's such a British opening for,the first thing I talk about is
an extensive download on likethe circadian cycle.

That's okay.
Well, here I will now talk abouta very American thing, a very
homosexual thing.
Thank you so much for yourflexibility today.
I can't believe I accidentallyscheduled therapy at the same
time.

You know what the perks of being a full-time rider
is that I am always free.
If I ever tell you, I know ifyou ever hear from me that I've
got something booked, I'm lying.
I just don't wanna do it.

That's so funny.
I know you need to startdeveloping some fake things

Yeah.

so that it can mix in with the lies.

it's like, I dunno, when you are sort of
doing new experiences so thatyou can kind of collect
material, so it's like I have,you might say like, oh, I have a
sound bath at 5:00 PM Yeah.
I've got my lunchtime, aerialyoga.
I am not very, um, susceptibleto hocus pocus, but I do have

Oh.

who are quite susceptible to hocus pocus.
Um, and so I hear about thesethings and I'm sure maybe there
is sort of some grounding in thesandbar having, you know, this
relaxing effect on your body.
But people will say they're liketransformative.
It's like.
You know, they come out bornagain and it's like, babe, a

(47:32):
woman just hit a gong.

I wonder what the physiological thing is.
Like, is it maybe, well, dopeople have, like, are there
like capillaries closer to theirskin or something that like the,
the vibrations are actuallyaffecting them in a way that
they don't affect you?
I don't know.
I'm just trying.

something for her maybe.
Um, definitely not something forme to answer.

Right.
No, no.
I mean, me either.
I'm just making it up.
Um, okay, so you're notsusceptible to hocus pocus, but
what about things like a tarotcard?
If someone like pulls somethingand like tells you something
about your life,

So, um, I don't think the interesting part in
that is the hocus pocus.
So I don't think that there'ssort of like some divine power,

Right, right, right.

determining what card I'm getting.
I think what's interesting iswhat thoughts it provokes in
you.
When you receive that card andthe Yeah, the train of thought
that follows.

Yeah,

I'm not gonna seek a tarot reading.
If someone like whips out a packof tarot cards and offer me,
offers me a reading, I'm notgonna be rude.
You know, it's just,

sure.
Right?

I'm, yeah.
I'm not gonna, they can lay thecard in front of me.
It's not gonna kill me.

Mm-hmm.
Unless it says it's going to.

I know, but then I'm like, how interesting that

Right, right,

examine these feelings of anxiety I'm having
with respect to death.

right, right.

think that's probably the interesting part.

Uhhuh,

I think kind of some of us know it, but I do
think there are some real rideor die.
For, um, believing in like thedivine power influencing those
specific cards and in otherareas

yeah.

I say I'm not into hocus pocus, but I'm, I'm also
from Malaysia and I think.
You know, I'm also in Malaysia,Chinese, and I think when you
grow up in that culture, youhave like an inborn belief of
things like ghosts.
And so I'm like very on my highhorse, um, about things like

(49:32):
astrology and then I go home andhear something and I'm like,
it's haunted.
I had a, I had a noise in myflat, um, a couple of months
ago.
And a stack of magazines felloff a chair.
I now realize that I think in mytired haze, I knocked the

Bumped something.
Yeah.

the N Magazines.
But I was just, my firstassumption was there's a ghost.
I told my family, they allfreaked out.
I was sent a long chant to, Istarted bargaining with the
ghost.
I was like, you know what?
It's chill.
You're here.
You know,

Uhhuh

at home.
Just

Uhhuh.

long.
Um, and then I described

just don't get in the way.

I described the scratching noises to my partner,
and he was like, I think youjust have like, like a rat.
But I like my Malaysian

Right.

was just like, it's a ghost.

Well, it's, there are two things I wanna say to
that thing.
One, I find it very interestingbecause what I am hearing is you
say, uh.
It's like a higher power issue.
Like you, there's not, there'snot like a higher power
situation, but Ghost is like,not that, right?
It's something different.
the and the other thing.

thing is, I think it's completely irrational.
I don't think there's like alogical consistency between

okay.
That's fair.
That's fair.
I.

of, that's just, um, how culture informs our,
like superstitious beliefs.

I, uh, many years ago now, dislocated my ankle and
fractured my leg in threeplaces.
What happened was I was takingasthma medicine and you like,
inhale, hold your breath.
Exhale, and then rinse yourmouth out.
I'd been taking it for so longthat I was sort of like in a
routine and I was walking frommy bedroom to the bathroom.

(51:14):
Whilst holding my breath.
Next thing I knew I was on theground, looked up my foot, was
facing the wrong way, and I hadno idea how I got there.
And my face hurt and my firstthought was I was punched by a
ghost.

Yeah, that's my first thought too.

Totally irrational.
No reason for me to feel thatway.
And then I was like, oh no, Ijust like fell.
And my head hit the table righthere.

were punched by a ghost.
Um, no.
You were punched by a ghost.

So random

deny the facts.
The ghost was, um, the ghost wasdisturbed, or the

Uhhuh?

good intentions.
The ghost saw you was like,we're gonna punch that asthma
out.
You know what,

Yes.

those lungs need is a good ass punch.

Oh my God.

came from a good place, but you are on the floor.
And the ghost was like, shit, Ididn't mean to do that.
I better move on.
Let's get outta purgatory.

I have to ask, because you've said the word
hocus pocus multiple times.
What about the movie.

Okay.
Remind.
I don't, what is that?
Wait, I know that there is amute here.
I am Googling S pocus.
Oh, I've

B Midler, Sarah Jessica Parker.
Kathy Najimy,

seen that, but you know, I

queer Canon.
It is culture.
How old are you?
We're take

I'm 31.

Okay.
I am a little bit older than I'm37, but like this is, this
should still be a part of your.
Culture, but that's okay.

was in, I was literally in the womb when

Fair.
Oh my God, you just made me feelso old.

I, I think I must have seen it though.
Oh, wait, no, I'm, I'm thinkingof the one with the bald
witches.
Is that the

Oh, that's the witches roll doll.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah,

was supposed to be terrifying to

yeah, yeah.

woman.

And you were like, what about it?

Yeah.
I say, yeah,

Um,

wo.
I was like, the shit I saw inthat.

something about hocus pocus.
I dunno.
anyway, I am shocked that thisis what we're talking about
right now.
I had every intention of talkingto you, um, about ingrown hairs
because apparently you're theexpert.

Where'd you hear that?
Who?
Who, who, who, who, who?
Who told you?

Um, on Caroline O'Donohue, former Gays reading
guest on her podcast.

that was a amazing podcast.
I loved recording that.
Um, so About a year and a halfago, and she was like, I need to
have you on the podcast.
And.
She explained to me what thepodcast was and I, um, I was
like, okay, well can I do theReal Housewives?
And she was like, no, that we'vedone that.
And I was like, can I doAmerica's Next Top Model?

(54:06):
And she was like, no, we've donethat.
And I was like, okay.
Well the only special interest Ihave left is pimple popping.
I watch like maybe seven toeight Real Housewives
franchises.
People are like, what do youhave on?
I'm like, I've got so much realHousewives to watch.
I'm finding it really hard toschedule like a relation to
manage a relationship.

(54:27):
Friendships, um, my workload andthe Housewives, it

Uh,

soon as sort of the finales came, I was like,
finally, I'm free.

and at that point it's like you should just become
one.

I know, I do think I'm, I am destined for it, I do
think, but I'm gonna have tosell a lot more books if I'm
gonna get on that show,

Fair.
Okay.

brings me here to,

Yes.
Which is why you're here, um,which we'll talk about in a
second.
Disappoint Me by Nicola Dine,and this cover is so amazing.
I'm obsessed.

I specifically said I wanted a painting of like
a tired woman, and a

It's so good.

is what I received.

It is so good.
Um, but before we talk aboutdisappoint me, Nicola, what are
you reading right now?

Oh, you know what?
I'm actually reading my thirdbook, so I'm

That's a great answer.

so yeah, I was like, oh, I, because actually
when it

I.

to.
Personal reading.
Um, I'm interviewing Sean Faye,uh, who has just, who's written
Love and Exile, which has justcome out in the us.

Oh, yes, yes.

at a literary festival this weekend.

I,

finished that.
So I just finished reading thatfor a second time.
Um, and then I'm in this verynice period where I'm sort of in
between books and I am going toread a book called Colony, uh,
by Annika Nolan.
I.
After that, but at the moment,I'm just gonna finish my own
book because I'm doing edits.

(56:00):
I've just finished a really bigedit of it.
Um, this is the third one afterdisappoint me, maybe coming out
in a couple of years.
And, yeah, it's just sort of,it's kind of nice to read your
own work when you feel happywith the draft.

I love that.
I also love that you have a penin your hand as though I've like
interrupted you.
You're like, oh, fancy seeingyou here.
I've been,

like, like I was

oh my God, I'm so sorry.

to the minute, um, up to the minute that we started
this podcast, and as soon as wefinish, I'll go back to it.

So really I'm just, I'm a distraction.
I'm a nice distraction.
I'm like giving you a respite,

Yeah.
When you said like, what are youreading now?
I mean, I really meant like now.

right?
Like literally right now, panthe computer down, you'll see.
Let's talk about disappoint me.
Do you, do you have an elevatorpitch?

disappoint me is about a 30-year-old trans woman
named Max who falls down thestairs that a New Year's Eve
party wakes up in hospital andhas the same, same first thought
that we all would, which is I.
Fuck, I need to find aboyfriend.
And so she embarks on thisjourney, uh, to throw herself

(57:14):
sort of headlong intoheteronormativity, and she meets
a British Chinese man calledVincent, who initially seems
like the vision of anenlightened.
Man.
but the novel is told from twoPerspectives, Maxons and also
Vincents in 2012, more than 10years before the start of the
novel where we find Vincent inThailand on his gap year.

(57:38):
and join him as he embarks on alove affair with a British
traveler there.
Um, that's probably longer thanthe standard elevator pitch, but
I hope it sort of gets the soulof

Yeah.
No, it really does.
It's so funny.
I didn't even think.
About the relationship betweenmy story of did I get punched by
a ghost in the beginning ofdisappoint me, like of course,
that could have been the samethought that Maxi had

Yeah.

waking up in the hospital room.
Was I punched by a ghost whopushed me down the stairs?

who?
A ghost pushed me down thestairs.
Um, but actually I think in, inreality, I think Max is such a,
so prone to self blame.
And, um, so much of, uh, herlife's disappointments.
Well, painting so many of herlife's disappointments as
personal failures that she wouldnever think it was a ghost.

(58:29):
She'd, like apologized to theghost.
You

Right.

it's like, I think, I think

Was I in your way?
Go.
Sorry.

exactly.
Um, excuse me, don't mind

Right.
I don't wanna take up space.

corporeal form.
but you know, I think she's in aplace where she Yeah.
Is, is so prone to self blameand we see her, um, across the
novel to maybe takeresponsibility for things, uh,
that she shouldn't.
And so I think the book

Yeah.

co tackles all these complex questions that we
face.
As we move into what feels likethe true adulthood, not the
adulthood, uh, that

That we think.

it's like, oh, you're 18, you're an adult.
No, no,

Right, right.

like the true adulthood.
And I think, you know, it'sinteresting that I'm writing
books in my thirties that arestill maybe considered coming of
age books.
but I also kind of see thesesort of like boongs womens as
like an eternal thing.
There's sort

Yeah.
Well,

I'm doomed to always come of age.
I'm gonna be turning 50.
And I'm like, oh, coming of ageagain.

well, it's true.
And I say all the time on thispodcast, you know, what does it
mean to be an adult, right?
Like we're as, and in myopinion, as long as there is
someone older than us, we won'tfeel like one, right?
Because we will always look tothe next generation.
And so in turn, we will sort ofalways be coming of age.

(59:52):
Um.

think, you know, um.
To become an adult is to, uh, insome ways realize the ways in
which you're still a child.
You know, I think we kind ofembark on our early twenties
having a real sense of, youknow, I'm a, I'm a big girl now.
Like, I'm doing all of thesethings.
I have a job, and you feel agreat sense of, um, maybe like

(01:00:17):
newfound independence or you'vejust gone off to college or
university and you feel.
Um, you feel empowered,

Jason Blitman (01:00:25):
Mm

Nicola Dinan (01:00:26):
you know, you encounter these things in
adulthood, which.
you back to the darkest placesof your childhood.
You enter into relationshipswhich trigger you, triggers you,
trigger you in ways that arereminiscent of those deepest
wounds that you

hmm.

a child and that sense.
And you also realize and see ithappen in your parents as well.
You see the ways in which yourparents are brought back to
their childhood, the ways inwhich your parents are
triggered.
And you

Yeah.

that actually to be an adult is to have.
one foot in the age you are andone foot in your past,

Hmm.

like sort of an inevitable condition, is to be
in that awkward splits.
And so we find ourselves, um,confronted with the past and it.
and it being so uncomfortablebecause it in us a fear that we
haven't actually changed as whatmuch as we have.
Or it makes it feel too closefor comfort that, you know, oh
wow.
I used to express myself in thatway.

Hmm.

in which I didn't have like a female hormonal
profile, all of that stuff.

And then there's a flip side too of, of someone
giving themselves permission tochange, permission to be
different, permission to, to,uh, reconcile the worst things
that you've ever done in yourlife in 2012, right.
Something else that I love somuch about the book that we
haven't talked about is how.
Funny it is and how relatable itis.

(01:01:51):
And I don't want you to feel anysort of way by me saying this,
but it is giving me DollyAlderton.
It is.
Well, there's something abouther book Ghosts in particular
that is my favorite kind of bookand in turn so is disappoint me
where it is so readable.
but it's also.

(01:02:13):
It is still literary.
There are, the sentences arestill beautiful and it gives you
so much to talk about and yetyou can also devour it, right?
So there's, it is a, it is apleasure to read, but it is not
just cotton candy.
It's, you know, there's a lot ofsubstance there.

Yeah.
You know, I think, thank you somuch.
I think when I think about whatI like to write, I think I don't
want.
Um, the complexity tonecessarily be in, uh, the
journey to understand what I'msaying.
Although, you know, I thinksometimes it can, I think
sometimes what I'm the meaningof what I'm saying might take a

(01:02:51):
little bit of time to untangle,but I don't want that, uh,
meaning to be unclear.

At a sentence level.
Right?
Yeah, no, I understand.

am kind of motivated by clarity and I
think.
It is maybe kind of reflected ofmy background, like when I

Mm.

I studied sciences and when I, I graduated, I
became a lawyer and practiced asa lawyer until 2021.
And so I have just worked andalways studied in fields of
which you can't, like you can't,no hocus pocus with language.
You just have to be

Yeah.

because there's.
Huge consequences to a loss ofmeaning.
And I, they take, I think, mywriting as seriously, and I
think my editors know it'ssomething I really care about.
And so even if I am usingflowery language, I do try to,
have it be accessible and forthe complexity to largely be
within the ideas.

(01:03:52):
That's not to say I like, Idon't like books that are more
experi experimental withlanguages that I don't like
poetry.
I do like all those things, butit's just in terms.
Of when I'm writing, I like, I,I, I want the meaning to be
clear and I want, the points ofdiscussion that follow from the
novel to be centered on, um.

(01:04:13):
These sort of human themes, youknow, I

Yeah.

be fussing about what does this sentence mean?
I want it to

Right.

you know, do, would you forgive Vincent?
You know that, that's what'sinteresting to me, and it's what
I ask

Yeah, absolutely.

readers of the book, but I'm so glad you
thought it was funny.
I think

Yes.

such a, that's such a, um, it's such a
compliment to make people laugh.

Well, it's fun.
It's just, it's, it's relatable,right?
You, you could live in thisworld and that I think is
important right?
To, as a reader.
Um, right.
Like I read East of Eden'causeit's one of my husband's
favorite books and, and.

favorite books.

Oh, really?
Have fun.
But at a sentence level, it is,it, well, each sentence is
delicious.
It is.
It is beau, but, but notdissimilar from Shakespeare.
I was like, Steinbeck, what areyou trying to tell me?
You took four pages to say onething, you know?
And, and, and that has its timeand place.
And frankly, at that time.

(01:05:11):
No one had anything better to dothan read all of that.
but for me, my favorite booksare,

on East of Eden please?

oh my God.
I know.
So, but I love that that's oneof your favorite books too.
How fun.

absolutely.
I love Steinbeck.
I love grapes

I.

and I love, east of Eden, but East of Eden in
particular.
I just thought it had theperfect ending.

Yeah, no, the ending is beautiful.

I think about it all the time and

Hmm.

I quite like sort of the, the, um, the morality
that's often baked into 19thcentury models, novels you see
in Sevki as well.
It's not really how I write, Ithink I sort of try to live in
the morally ambiguous, I thinkmaybe I still try to handle
moral questions with a sense ofopenness, even if there's sort
of a idea of what my view mightbe.

Mm-hmm.

I always liked sort of the clear sense of kind
of good and evil in those books.
Um,

Right.
It's like quite literal.
This is the, this is what we'reat talking about here.
Before I let you go, as myguest, gay reader, I ask
everybody this question the lastfew months.
this is a time to amplify peoplearound us that we love.
You are not allowed to say yourpartner.
If you were to die tomorrow, whowould you enlist to delete the

(01:06:29):
search history on your computer?

My friend Leo, I trust the thing is like, so I
think he would gossip about, uh,he was, he would basically, I
think he would laugh.
He would gossip a bit about it.
And I think that's how what I,I, I want people to be laughing
at my funeral.
I wouldn't even mind if it

Yes.

I think I Google pretty funny shit, like nothing
that incriminating.
And I also think, you know,going back to this idea of
writing comedy, like the best,um, the best thing you can do to
write funny things is to be ableto laugh at yourself.
I think like there's so muchabout my book that parallels my
own life.
And so, if you can't laugh atyourself, you can't make fun of

(01:07:16):
it.
And so I would trust him becauseI know he'd make fun of it.
And I

Yes.

make fun of it.
He'd gossip about it.
He'd laugh about it.
And that's how I want to beremembered.

Love.
We love Leo.
Thank you Leo, for being the onewho we would turn to.
Um, Nicola.
So nice to connect and meet you.
Thank you for everything.
Everyone.
Go get your copy of DisappointMe by Nicola Dinan out now and
have a wonderful rest of yourday.

Thank you.
Austin and Nicola, thank you somuch for being here.
Everyone, thank you so much forjoining me.
I will be back again tomorrow tocelebrate the incredible legacy
of Edmund White and then back toour regularly scheduled
programming next week.
Thank you all.
Have a wonderful rest of yourday.

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