Daria Lavelle (Aftertaste) feat. Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman, Guest Gay Reader

Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Gaze reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what andwhy.
Anyone can listen Comes we arespoiler free.
Reading from stars to book clubpicks we're the curious minds
can get their picks.
Say you're not gay.

(00:24):
Well that's okay there somethingeveryone.
Hello, and welcome to Gay'sReading.
I'm your host, Jason Blitman, Ontoday's episode, I have Daria
Lavelle, whose book Aftertastecomes out today and Kareem, Mr.

(00:45):
Bake.
Queeman is my guest gay readertheir bios can both be found in
the show notes.
today, May 20th, happens to bemy wedding anniversary.
Happy anniversary to my husbandFranklin.
Love you.
If you are new to Gay's Reading,welcome.
I'm very happy to have you ifyou are coming back.
Thank you so much for joining.

(01:06):
Again.
If you like what you're hearing,please share us with your
friends.
Follow us on social media.
We are at Gays reading onInstagram.
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You could watch these episodesover on YouTube as a small indie
podcast, it means so much all ofthe likes, all of the follows,
all of the shares, thesubscribes, the five star
reviews really helps get gazereading on other people's radar.

(01:28):
And I appreciate all of you whohave helped push GA's reading
even further into the universe.
I have started a gaze readingSubstack.
You could find a whole bunch ofreally great content over there,
including in a couple of weeks.
I'm releasing an extremelycurated pride book list.
The link to the Substack.
is in the show notes and also.

(01:48):
In the Link tree on Instagram.
I'm continuing the partnershipwith Book Club.
To provide an exclusiveintroductory discount, new
members in the United States canjoin today, enter the code gaze
reading at checkout, and gettheir first book for$4, and that
includes free shipping.
And now please enjoy thisepisode of Gaze Reading.

Jason Blitman (02:12):
I met Lucy this weekend.

Daria Lavelle (02:14):
heard, I heard you guys hit it off, and she was
so excited and I was so excited.
And I love your show and I loveall the people you talk to, so
I'm like so excited and thrilledto be here.

I'm so excited to have you.
Although, I will say she didgimme a big complex, which like
she was like, your aftertaste?

Oh, that's a tough question.

was a stumped And then be so embarrassed that I
hadn't thought of it yet.
And she was like well, youbetter think of it before you
talk to her.

No,

She didn't actually say it like that but I
was like I had, my instinct wasthat you were gonna get asked
that all the time and every,that's gonna be the topic of
conversation.
So I'm happy to talk about otherthings instead

I mean,

Wanna hear what your after day says

It's it's funny.
I feel like, yeah, I feel like.
you can have multiple, and Ithink it also depends on who
you're bringing back, who'sbringing you back, what that
relationship is like, what thatfood kind of moment is.
So you know, there's more thanone.
It's not so easy.

I appreciate that.
Thank you for seeing me.

Also, you're probably very like healthy and
well adjusted that you're like,I don't need to come back from
the dead.
So maybe I don't have one.

no, No.
I was just more thinking aboutothers and yeah.
Anyway, we'll talk, we'll that'splenty of a, that's a rabbit
hole to go down in a minute.
Do you have an elevator pitchfor the book?
You do.
I've

Yeah,

it.
It's very succinct and creative.

I've been trying.
Do you want me, do you want meto give it now?
Should we start?

Sure this we've always started.
This is, we have started

I love it.
I love it.
Okay.

about Lucy is gonna be on the beginning of the

Oh no, she's gonna love that.
Can't wait.
Okay so what is this book about?
What's the elevator pitch?
So it is a

Aftertaste by Darelle

of aftertaste by me.
So it is, it's a combination ofa lot of different things like
any good meal.
part ghost story.
It's part love story, and it'sall food story.
So it takes place in theculinary world in New York City,
in restaurants and kitchens.
And it's about this guy namedConstantine who loses his dad at
a really young age and soonafter develops this ability to

(04:24):
taste the food of the dead.
So he will experience thesedishes and these flavors that he
hasn't eaten, that he's maybenever tried before, and he knows
that a spirit is there trying tocontact him.
And this starts with the veryfirst dish, which is his dad's
dish.
And as he.
Grows up and gets older.
He keeps this a really hiddensecret.
It freaks him out as it wouldfreak most of us out.

(04:44):
And he's in his thirties, he'sstuck in this dead end job.
He's washing dishes at hisspeakeasy and he decides to
finally act on an aftertastethat he experiences there.
And he discovers that by cookingthe food that he's been tasting,
he can actually bring a spiritback from the afterlife for one
last meal with somebody theylove.
So he sets off to open arestaurant in New York City
serving closure and discoversalong the way that he's falling

(05:08):
in love with somebody with herown connection to the afterlife.
And he also discovers maybe toolate that there are consequences
to messing with spirits and thespirit life.

It was hearing you say serving closure I think
on your Instagram or somethingwhere I was like that is two
word.
Description of the book.

I think that's the thing that kind of.
Brings everything out forConstantine.
That's what he thinks he'sdoing.
He wants to be the good guy andgive all of this to everyone
who's eating his food anddoesn't necessarily turn out the
way he planned.

Yeah.
There I'm like, are so manyrabbit holes I want to go down.
And if you're a fan of the show,then you know, I don't
necessarily love taking astraightforward route in terms
of talking about things andfrankly prefer to talk about
things that you won't be talkingabout elsewhere.

Which I love.

but I'm curious to hear about your relationship
to, Tarot to the sort of otherworld of aftertaste.
There is, yeah.
Let's start with that.
And then there's, I'm curious tolearn about how you fell down
the rabbit holes of like ClaireGunton Claire.

(06:20):
Claire Guston.

Guston.

Yes.

Okay, so I will caveat by saying that I'm
Eastern European, I'm Ukrainian,and we are incredibly
superstitious people.
I want to generalize that.
My family is, when I tell you wehave a superstition for
everything, like you name it, wedo it to the point where some
examples, if I leave the houseand I've forgotten something,
let's say I forget my keys.
I need to return to the house.

(06:45):
And before I do anything else,before I find said keys, I have
to look in a mirror to make surethat a bad spirit has not
followed me in.
This is like legit, like I livemy life with all of this
surrounded by it.
So you know, things like whensomeone is traveling, you don't
clean the house.
Like before you go on a bigtrip, you have to sit for like a
minute.
Like all of these things

were these things taught to you?

we just did the, we, like my parents just started
to do the always did themgrowing up, it's just that.

they did them and so then you followed

So I'd belittle and I'd forget something.
I'd be like, look in the mirror.
Go back and look in the mirror.
So all of these things are verymuch around me in my everyday
life.
And I think I'm also a personwho I'm deeply, spiritually in
tune.
I believe in the spirit world.
I believe that the people welove who've lost, we've lost
don't actually leave us.
They're still here in somecapacity.
Like I can feel their presenceat different times in my life.

(07:38):
I've had like weird dreamexperiences where things have
come true.
So all of that is I'm primed forall of the tarot and the
afterlife and all of thosethings, just like living in the
world as a person.
And when I was it's such a goodquestion.
No one's asked me this before.
So well done.
You when I was in middle school.
I read an article in TeenMagazine because that was like

(08:02):
what you did, and it was allabout Nordic ruins.

you remember who was on the cover?

Oh God, I couldn't tell.
It was probably Brittany orChristina.
Probably.

I just wasn't sure if it was like a very
specific cherished

No.
Oh my gosh, no.
My parents moved recently andthey purged everything.
So any hope of finding thatagain is lost.
But,

so funny.
Okay, so you're reading thisarticle.

reading this article and it was very obscure
for Teen.
It was like, here's how you castNordic ruins and you can make
your own, and here are all thesymbols and here's what they
mean.
And if you're not familiar withNordic Ruins, it's tarot in the
sense that you sleep with thislittle pouch of rocks, each of
which has a little symbol on itunder your pillow.
You infuse it with your energy,and then you pull it out and you

(08:47):
ask a question and it's like anopen-ended question.
And you draw a room and justtarot, if it's face up, it means
one thing.
If it's inverted, it meanssomething else.
And rather than giving you likea clear answer, it gives you a
question to ask or like apathway to think about what this
thing means.
What are you pondering?
So if you ask should I leave myjob?

(09:08):
It might say something like, oh,you've drawn isa.
That means stand still.
So maybe you're stuck in yourjob and think about are you
happy in this current position?
Do you want to move on tosomething different?
So it's like it gives you aframework to think about stuff,
which is what I love also abouttarot.
So I got into this wholedivination idea but always been

(09:30):
into it from this article onteen.
Yeah, I know that writersomewhere is like, I've made it.
I've done it.

Oh my God.

and.
Yeah.
So I, it's always been a part ofmy life, not in the sense of I'm
like reading tarot cards everyday, but I think I'm a person
who likes to reflect and askquestions.
And having that framework ofbeing guided by something is
really helpful to me.
So that was the way into thecharacter Maura who is a party
psychic.
That was my big connection toher.
And I think a lot of what shedoes is introspection and

(10:00):
thinking about how can this gowrong?
How can this go right?
What are the different pathwaysthat can be open based on this
journey?

I had my tarot red for the first time

Ooh,

year-ish ago,

exciting.

and.
I didn't really feel one way oranother about tarot.
And then she read my cards and Iwas like, I'm a believer.
But I also, someone just told meI had to do my star chart, my
astrology chart for

Okay.

And the things I not only not learned, but it
said things like.
You're a person who has likerandom, minor ailments

Interesting.

has random, minor ailments.

You know what?
People balk at this all the timeand they're like, what are you
believing in?
This is like all whohoo voodookind of stuff, and it's listen,
maybe in some people's hands itwould be, but I genuinely think
there are people who are justlike.
Connected to the universe andthey've put stuff, they've put
feelers out there and they canreceive in certain ways, and
why?
Why should we ignore it?

(11:02):
It's a data point.
It doesn't have to be your wholelife.
It's a data point.

course.
And I like, literally, I havegout, I have kidney

Oh God.

I've had shingles,

Oh,

like I'm

all the minor ail ones.
Yeah.

I'm like, so weird.
Okay, so how did you get toClaire Gustine,

Okay.
So yes, so I'll start with whatit means.
So everyone's heard ofclairvoyance.
So that's like being able to seesomething from the spirit world
that comes from ye, which is theverb in French for, to be able
to see.
And there's actually one ofthese psychic Claires is what
they call them, psychicconnections for each of the five

(11:41):
senses.
You can hear from the afterlife.
You can see from the afterlife,you can feel from the afterlife.
And so tasting is called cleardistance.
And it's interesting because Idid not know the word for this
going into this story.
This is a thing where I waslike, I had come up with this
idea in like 2013.

(12:02):
The scene just came to me.
I was sitting, I was I hadworked in advertising.
I was one of these stereotypicalpeople where I would like do my
day job and then it'd be sevenat night and I'd run over to a
cafe and I'd be there with mylittle laptop clicking away
until they kicked me out.
And during one of these writingsessions, I had this vision
moment, whatever you want,divine intervention, whatever

(12:23):
you wanna call it.
And it was this scene of thisguy in this really crappy Hell's
Kitchen apartment.
And he's plating this dish andit's, he's like really
meticulous, but he is making itbeautiful.
He sets it on the table and thisbeautiful glittering ghost comes
through the wall to try to eatthe food.
And I had no idea what thismeant, why the food was there,

(12:43):
what he was doing, what she wasdoing, were they related?
Is it random?
Can you do this all the time?
All these questions.
And I knew that it was specialand I knew that I wanted to
follow it, and it was intriguingto me and it haunted me and
didn't wanna let me go.
And I started to put togetherover years, like little
breadcrumbs of ideas, thingsthat seemed related to it,
things that didn't seem relatedto it.

(13:05):
And at one point I was goingdown a rabbit hole on Wikipedia
as one does.
And I don't know how I even gotto this page.
I must have been searchingsomething about tarot or
psychics or something.
And I saw this little note forPsychic Claire's and I clicked,
and it was one of these you knowhow you can get to Wikipedia in
a way where there's a lot ofreally robust information and a

(13:25):
thousand links, or you can windup on this one page that one
person, like accidentally put, Ihas one line.
That's what this was.
It was like, there are fivesecond Claires, one for each
sense, and here's what they'recalled.
And clear distance is theability to taste something of
the dead.
So that's where it began andended.

(13:45):
And of course I tried to searchfor more information on it, and
there just wasn't a ton.
It was a lot of similar to theother psychic senses, it's like
about a particular person.
So if they were a smoker, maybethe medium is tasting a
cigarette.
If they had a particular, lipgloss, they wore, maybe that
flavor is appearing, but itwasn't in the sense of these
meals or, sense memory in termsof food.

(14:08):
But as soon as I read that, likethe light bulb went off in my
head, I was like, wait, this isthat story.
This is that guy in that kitchenand that ghost.
This is how that connectionworks.

you weren't doing this.
You weren't down this rabbithole Of that idea.

No.

Happened to be down a rabbit hole that then
reminded you of that idea Like,this is where I need to go with
it.

yes.
I put that idea away.
It was, like I said, it was like2013 and I had all of those
questions and I didn't know theanswers yet.
And I had this feeling that Iwas like, this is a really big
idea.
I need to treat this with therespect and care that it
deserves.
And I'm not like ready to writeit.
I tried to write into it acouple of different ways.
And I kept getting stuck and itkept being just scenes of this

(14:48):
guy in his apartment.
And I was like, this is biggerthan this.
What is this?
And so I, I said, okay, I'mgonna keep this idea on the back
burner, work on some otherthings, and that, that's where I
was when I had this Wikipediamoment.
And I was like, wait a minute.
That's it.
That's the thing.

That's so fascinating.
Have you ever experiencedanything like that?
Have you ever experiencedanything like clairegustance?

Oh, that's such a good question.
I think I experience, it's aweird, really weird thing to
say, textures of words.
So it's a different kind ofsynesthesia, like when I'm
writing every once in a whileI'll get stuck for a word and
I'm, I know.
I know what I want it to do interms of the sound in the
sentence, like how manysyllables it has to be, does it

(15:35):
end a certain way?
Does it have a certain poetry, acertain rhythm to it?
And I know what I'm searchingfor, but I don't, and I know the
definition of the word, but I'mlike searching for the word and
I'll find myself like doingthis, like rubbing my fingers
together, trying to get thetexture.
And when I hit on it, it's likeI, I feel it.
It's such a weird thing to say,but yeah, I've never confessed
that to anyone.
So you're the first

That's so interesting.
We never really know where thatstuff in quotation marks like
comes from.
I can't say that I've everexperienced clear gustine
either, but I fell down a rabbithole of taste memories

Mm,

s sense memories a lot,

totally.

With the author Sean Hewitt, he talks in his
book a lot about So it's thesense, sense memory of smell.
He and I talked a lot about thatand I

Oh, I love that.

thought too much about the sense memory of taste.
But yeah, food, it's just likeassociations that we have

Smell and taste are also so related.
Like you can't, if you lose yoursense of smell, your taste
completely changes and getsthrown off.
It's fascinating.
It's funny I think you talkabout smell reminded me of it.
Like I, I definitely have reallystrong sense memories to
perfumes too.
So I'll I'll smell somebody onceand then six years later be in a
room and be like, oh my God,it's this person.

Yeah.
It's I was gonna say that's whata dog must feel like, but that
sounds like such a, I like,don't mean to sound like I'm
calling you a dog.

No.
I'll take it.
Dogs are delightful.

are delightful.
But that's, they're so good atthat because of smell and what a
cool experience to have, to tobe able to really see someone
beyond eyes,

Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think with foodespecially, it's it's such a
personal thing too, like whatyou eat and what you've had
prepared for you and what hasformed, the cuisine of your
childhood as opposed to yourflavor profile, your palate as
you get older and like you makeyour own food choices.
It's so interesting and I think,cooking for someone is so

(17:37):
intimate and cooking together isso intimate and you get to know
each other on these differentlevels.
So I think it's one of theseit's always a pivotal moment, I
feel in a friendship or arelationship where you have
someone to your home and youcook for them and you make them
like something that meanssomething to you.

Yeah.
What is that thing for you?

Oh, that's such a good question.
So I love making comfort dishes.
I love making stews and pastasand something that like sits and
sims for a long time and kind offalls apart.
So that's always something thatI love to cook for people,
especially because it's it's along ritual of making something
so it takes a lot of care andit's not something you're
necessarily gonna do on aweeknight, after the kids are

(18:15):
home from school and you'rewhipping something together.
Um, So I feel like to me, thosedishes that take a lot of time
are the ones that, that I'll gotowards.
Um, Ooh, yes, please.
I'll trade you, I'll give you mybologne.

Yes.
Okay.

But yeah I think I gravitate towards that.
And then.
I also gravitate towards thefood that I grew up with.
So I my husband is not Ukrainianand so making some of that food
for him, and especially when myparents make it for both of us,
it's so nourishing.
And like him getting to see aglimmer of what I was like as a
kid by eating that food isreally special too.

when you think of like a taste memory for you, is
it a lot of that, is it toUkrainian roots or,

I think, yeah, a lot of my childhood memories are
all centered around food.
Lots of Pima ches or differentkinds of dumplings.
My mom makes this one dish.
It's like a, it's called, it'sthese little, like these meat
hand pies that are so good.
I don't know how they they'relike, I don't know, Eastern
European and pinatas, they'redelicious.

(19:20):
And they're just so good.
I don't know how they haven'tcaught on more here.
So that always brings me wayback to being a little kid.
But it's funny the tastememories I have that are the
most potent are like reallyrandom.
I have this very bizarre, verynegative taste memory of those
conversation hearts that you getwhen you're, when it's
Valentine's Day.

(19:42):
So I remember being reallylittle I don't know, four or
five.
And I was in nursery school, andit must have been around
Valentine's Day.
I had come with.
A box of'em.
And I was not a kid who napped,I hated napping.
And this is this is gonna showso basic.
So I hated napping.
I didn't wanna do it.
And I had this one really goodfriend at this school, and she

(20:04):
promised me that she was gonnastay up through nap time and she
fell asleep.
And I felt so betrayed.
I felt so just heartbroken.
And I was crying in that waythat little kids cry where it's
like heaving and you can't stopand you can't breathe.
And I was trying to consolemyself by eating these
conversation hearts.
And so they're like dripping outof my mouth.
There's like this sad,peppermint mixed with tears.

(20:27):
So it's like it was so potent tothis day.
I can't eat them without thatcoming back to me.

Yeah, no, of course.
It's like really equated to thatspecific

Right.

You'd feel that way.

And I feel like everyone's got something like
that.

Yeah.
It's I have a traumaticexperience with a very specific
kind of pasta

Oh no.

and I, this even like a year ago, I think my
husband made it Took a bite andI was like, I.
Can't re I like, I'll eat thisfor dinner'cause I'm hungry, but
this is not, I like

oh,

this again.
yeah.
From some childhood trauma.

oh God.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Were the book obviously is somuch about food.
Something else that Lucy saidwas, the book makes you so
hungry.
Was like, I was thinking thatthe whole time, but it's such a,
it's such a generic thing tothat people say about food
books.
But I was like, no, but thisfood, this book really makes you

(21:30):
hungry.

Thank you.

There's no other way to talk about it.
what is your relationship likewith cooking, with kitchens,
with the New York City foodscene?
I know you consider yourself afoodie, obviously.
Like you couldn't write a booklike this if you didn't.
Are you a.
Are you a big Michelin starredrestaurant person?

I am incredibly omnivorous in my eating.
Like I love a tasting menu.
I do.
I love sitting down and likebeing taken care of in that way.
And I think part of thatexperience is so much about the
service, even as much as thefood.
And in one of those, when you goto Love and Madison Park,
everything is so meticulous andthe plating is so meticulous and
there's so much storytellingthrough food.
And so I think it's really aspecial experience to get that.

(22:12):
At the same time, I am like thestreet meat girl.
Like you walk past a halal truckand it smells delicious and you
can't not stop.
Like I love a New York hot dog.
Like all of that.

Wait.
We have to go back to this.
There, there is this like veryfrustrating thing too, where the
street meat smells

Always.
Always.

Nuts.

The nuts for nuts.
Oh, I have been betrayed bynuts.
For nuts so many times.

Yes.
For anyone who's only listeningand not watching Daria's fist
shook in the air, the nuts werenuts.
know.
It smells so good.
But that's

Yeah.
Especially on a cold day in NewYork City like that, caramelized
vanilla, that delicious smell isjust wafting towards you on the
air.

freezing cold.
Yeah.

Yeah.
And then you can eat exactly twocashews and they're delicious.
But then the third one, you'relike, this is way too sweet.
I need a balance.
But yeah.

could do everything from 11

But yes to like, like street meat.
Very high and low.
And I think that's what I loveabout New York City, that you
can have those experiences andyou can have the best meal
you've ever had at a total dive.
I love that there's a sense ofdiscovery, not just in these
really high-end places, butbasically ev you can walk down
the street and find a random,tiny pizza place, and it's like
the best thing you've evereaten.

(23:35):
Um, Which is what I love.
And I think I, I grew up with afamily that cooked a lot.
My parents made everything fromscratch.
When I say everything,everything from pickles to
smoked salmon to my mom wouldmake farmer's cheese, like all
sorts of things.
It was just how they grew upwith what they did, what their
parents did.
And so I, I always had that inmy mind.
Like the food we ate was never,we didn't go out very much when

(23:58):
I was a really little kid.
So it was all homemade at home,traditional food.
And then my parents got reallyadventurous and they started
just buying cookbooks and makingdifferent cuisines.
So that was my introduction tothat too.
We had like, yeah, it was reallyfun.
We had the food network on allthe time constantly.
I remember being really little,eight or nine years old, and I

(24:19):
would wake up really early.
My parents would be like, gofind something to occupy
yourself.
And so I would make breakfast.
I would cook croissants or bunsor something like that, and
they'd wake up and there'd bethis like whole spread.
So I was always very into it.
I loved.
I loved experiencing what it waslike to make stuff.
'cause I loved watching myparents do it.
So that was my foray intocooking and flavors and all of

(24:41):
that.
And then as I got bigger, Iloved to go to restaurants and
try what other people are makingI

the very opposite experience of you as a kid where
like it was jarred sauce and itwas frozen vegetables and it
was, nothing was made fromscratch.
So as I got older and I waslike, wait, there's, you can
roast vegetables with,

a whole world.

and salt and spices and it's delicious.
Yeah, it was a whole differentexperience for me.
I'm what.
You could interpret thisquestion however you want, but
what does it mean to be a goodtaster?

That's a good question.
So for me, I think it's beingreally conscious of what you're
eating and thinking about.
There are lots of ways to tasteand I am absolutely guilty of
like, when I'm hungry, I willscarf something down and barely
know what I'm eating.

Yeah.

But I think if you're really tasting, it's,
what are the layers that composethis thing?
What are the flavors?
How do those flavors blendtogether?
Does it feel balanced?
Yes or no?
And why?
And I think part of it too isthinking about where does this
dish come from in the world?
And in terms of like the personwho made it for you and how did

(25:55):
it come to be on your plate?
I think a big part of what I didin writing this book was
thinking about, what are thedishes that these spirits are
eating that are compellingenough to bring them back?
And like why are they eatingthis particular thing?
Why is it.
This peanut butter and jellywith the crust cut off badly
instead of this fancy meal theyonce had at this five star

(26:17):
restaurant.
So I think part of it is alsobeing able to taste like the
memory and the nuance and whatyou're eating.
I think every dish has a storyeven like the fast thing that is
put together and slappedtogether has the story of this
is a person who is out of timeand they put together something
with what they had because theyhad to feed their family.
Like that

yeah.
The idea of food asstorytelling, I find super
interesting.
My roommate before moving intoan apartment with.
The guy who would become myhusband he was a, I would call
him a chef.
He would call himself a cook.
He was a cook at per se.

That's very fancy.

Yeah.
I mean he was like capital C

Yeah.

it was always so interesting to be a fly on the
wall Because, he would becooking at Michelin starred
restaurants and come home andeat a subway sandwich or order
dominoes.
Or

of course.

and sometimes he would cook for himself and he
would let me taste and it wouldbe like the best carbonara I've
ever had, or I will neverforget.
He made this lasagna once

I'm already drilling,

I know it was just like out of control because
he just, he went to the cordonblue.
He like fully understood what itmeant to cook.

right.
I also feel like getting to seeinto different kitchens and
getting to experience, what isit like at that Michelin starred
rave review, world renownedkitchen versus what is it like
at the diner down the block?
I think it's, in some ways it'svery different.
In other ways you're stillmaking food, right?
So it's it's still, the goalsare the same and a lot of the

(28:00):
techniques might be the same.
Maybe your level of exactness interms of execution and precision
might differ but, but at the endof the day, I think the goal is
still to give somethingdelicious to the person eating
it.

That's a very interesting point because
there's a difference betweenyour goal and the expectation of

Mm-hmm.
Yes.

So your goal is the same, but the expectation of
the consumer is different

Yes.
Correct.
Correct.

You're still cooking a great meal.
Yeah.
Going back to just talking abouttaste.
My brain kept short circuitingbecause I was thinking about
taste as in what you're puttingin your mouth and As in like
your taste in

Music or Right.

music, your taste in clothes, and just like how it
all sort of interconnects andlike

Mm.

did the like etymology of the word taste, did
that come across, did you comeacross anything like that when
you were writing?

That's so funny.
What a good question.
I didn't come across anythinglike that specifically as I was
writing, but I think when youbuild character, that kind of
naturally happens, right?
Especially this book forced meto think about character in a
different way because I wasusing taste and using food as a
proxy for in, in another bookthat character might have just
been described based on whatthey were wearing or what kind

(29:18):
of job they had, or, where theylived, their background, all of
that.
And I found that I was using theaftertaste and their dishes as
the way to draw all of that out.
And so I think naturally I.
You're describing the physicaltaste of the food they're
eating, but that's so informedby their, like the other taste,

(29:39):
their taste in everything else,who they are.
So I think subconsciously I hadto think about all of that.
And every single dish is verymuch informed by who these
characters are and how I sawthem and where they are in the
world and why something wouldappeal versus not.
And like where they were at thepoint in their lives when they
ate this dish and what theirtaste was then.

(30:00):
So I think all of it plays, andI think you're right, that like
your palate is you're still,you, it's consistent whether
you're eating, something fordinner or you're choosing what
to wear, what music to listen toor book to read.

I am.
I was curious.
Googled what's the origin of theword taste?

interesting.
Okay.

Oh, interesting.
In the root word is an oldEnglish word that means to
perceive what the tongue,

Okay, I can see that.

Ian Tassian.
But so what I find fascinating,I guess my point really is that
I kept wondering chicken and egglike taste in music.
Does that come from taste inyour mouth?
I guess the answer is yes, ifthe origin is from your tongue.

I bet it, and you know what I, is it a Greek
origin,

Oh, no old English.
I think it's a

old English?
Because it, it reminds me oflike how in ancient Greek there
was like the wine red sea, butthe ocean was perceived as being
blue because of certain things.
So did you have the language forsomething?
I wonder if there's some sort offurther back origin.

gonna say something else in Hebrew, it's
about perception.

Okay, I can see that.

So like the taste on your tongue is that
perception on your tongue, yourtaste, your Is the perception in
your ears.
Oh, fascinating.

Like your audio flavor profile.
I love that.

Yes, exactly.
'Cause it also just had methinking about, my background is
in theater, and theater is anephemeral art form, Never really
thought about food as being anephemeral art form as well.

Yeah.
I think it's one of those thingswhere like you can only eat a
particular thing that way theone time.
And that's what's so funny aboutthis premise because
Constantine's whole goal andattempt is to recreate that
thing.
You had the one time, exactlythe way that it was using,
obviously like the chicken thathe's making is different from
the chicken that you had, 10years ago.

(31:58):
But he's trying to replicatewhat that experience is like on
the tongue.
And he's doing it byinterpreting the taste that
you're sending to him.

And what I find so interesting too is he doesn't
necessarily recognize, hedoesn't know all the flavors.
He

Right?

the tastes.
So there's something sointeresting about like how you
inherently know something thatyou don't actually know.

It's like that's that medium working through him,
the subconscious, like he'sgetting fed not just the flavor,
but like what these ingredientsare so that he can go ahead and
try to replicate it.

It's so funny what you just said.
You said he's getting fed andthere's so much of that
throughout the

So I, I only talk in food puns now.

But what's hilarious is like they don't
even, unless you sort of circleback to, oh yeah, this is a book
about food, they're so naturallyput in, what did I specifically
write down?
Oh, something being worth theirsalt.
And I was like, oh yeah, that'slike a turn of phrase someone
would say.
But it just so happens to alsobe very inherent to the book.

I am very big on wordplay.
It's something that I love to doin writing and I'm also really
big on like shop talk, for lackof a better word, like under in
the sense of I feel like you canreally get inside a character's
head if you understand thespeech of their job or the place
they live or their vernacular ina way that makes it feel so much
more authentic than if you don'thave that.

(33:23):
It seems like such a littlething, but just being able to
get kitchen talk.
Or if you're talking about amechanic getting all the auto
parts right, which I could neverdo.
But I, I think having thatinfuses this sort of like ude
and for me, Having the languageof food live in the story was a
really important way toconstantly bring the reader back

(33:43):
to the fact that this is aboutfood, this is about connection.
Look at all of the ways thatfood affects our lives beyond
just breakfast, lunch, anddinner.

Yeah.
And.
Yes, it is a book about food.
Yes, there's a lot of illusionsto food.
Yes, it is.
There is a lot of joy.
But there is this veryinteresting, like macab to And
again, something I heard youtalk about on your Instagram and
I thought about while I wasreading, forgot and then heard
you say it on your Instagram, itis a cousin of pushing daisies

yes.
Very much.

something, there is this like happy sadness to
the whole book.
What was balancing that like foryou?

It was really intentional because I knew when
I had this idea that I was goingto be talking about.
Ghosts and the spirit world andthe afterlife and grief and
loss.
But I also didn't wanna write abook that was just sad.
So I wanted to make sure that itfelt like a meal.
It felt balanced, it had thehappy and the sad.
And I wanted to make sure thatConstantine and Maura and

(34:45):
Frankie and the other charactersaround him could experience life
to its fullest.
Because I also feel like that'sone of the magical parts of New
York City, and especially ifyou're talking about food and
New York and being young andexploring all of that, I think
the joy jumps off the page.
It wanted to be there.

(35:06):
I wanted to use the book as away to, to remember the places
that I loved in my twenties andthirties in New York City.
So many of the places that popup throughout the book are
either like actual real placesthat you could have visited in
2017, or like very thin thinlyveiled versions.

Yeah.
speaking of, you talk about howno two people can experience
Manhattan in the same way.
Obviously that is a very we'reon our own journey.
In turn, no one can experienceit in the same way, but do you
have could you articulate howyou experienced Manhattan?

Yeah, I think I was, at the time when we lived
in Manhattan, my, my nowhusband, my then boyfriend slash
fiance and I had just gottenengaged.
I had just left my job in thesuburbs of New Jersey and was
working at an ad agency in NewYork City.
I was young and in my twenties,and I had all of these interests
and pursuits I was writing.

(36:03):
I was going to the opera, whichI'm obsessed with, like a little
old lady.
I love.

not a fan.

I'll convert you.
Don't worry if you know what tolook for.
It's really good.
But I was having these momentsin my life where I was just
saying yes to everything I had.
I didn't have a lot that washolding me back.
And so I was, going out withfriends and trying new foods and
going to these fabulousrestaurants and going for drinks
after work.
And it was just vibrant and fun.
And that those were like thememories that I was trying to
put into Constantine, despitethe fact that he wants to be

(36:33):
antisocial and he wants to bereserved and not do those fun
things.
Thank God for Frankie who pullshim out and pushes him into,
seeing the world for what itcould be.

Yeah.
I love that.
Talking about your Manhattanmade me think about my
Manhattan, which in turn likepopped up other potential
aftertastes of mine.

share.

Is the ricotta cheesecake at Pepino.

Okay.
No, but now I'm putting it on mylist right now.

it is a must.
It is a must go it's waydowntown.
is.

Literally typing it right now.

My husband and I like watched through the snow
one day to go get the cheesecakeand pepino.
there is a restaurant on Houseden called Arturo's.

Okay.

Italian restaurant that is like my
husband's family has been goingfor

Amazing.
Amazing.

and so I have also been introduced to this
place and have been going nowfor many years.
And their chicken parm is

Oh, I love a chicken farm.

it like makes my mouth water.

It's a perfect food.

Seriously.
And they like what's the, Idon't, oh my God.
My, my former roommate Jacksonis gonna be so embarrassed, but
it's, what's the

They butterfly it.
Oh,

it's pounded.
It's

okay.
Gotcha.
They gotcha.
For a schnitzel.
It has a word.

a schnitzel.
Yeah.
And it's just, it's so good.
So it's like thin and delicious.

so good.

What's yours?
I have another one I'll sharewith you in a minute.

Okay.
So I have a very, I've been, Ihave a lot of different ones,
but this is the one that Ialways default to.
'cause I think this is the onethat has the best expression of
what an aftertaste is.
So it's very specific.
It is the chocolate cog dessertthat was on the menu at the
Jewel Verne Restaurant, which ison the Eiffel Tower circa 2012

(38:30):
in the fall, which is when myhusband then boyfriend and I
were there.
We took a trip and we had twonights in Paris and he surprised
me.
With this incredible reservationat this restaurant.
And it was beautiful.
Like we're you're up on theEiffel Tower and like the sun
had just set, it was gorgeous.
And they served us this dishthat was like literally the size

(38:51):
of a dinner plate, like achocolate cog, like the piece of
hardware holding the EiffelTower together.
And it was MOUs and it wasdecadent and rich and delicious.
And we ate a couple of bites andwe were both so nervous we
couldn't finish it because Isuspected that he might be about
to propose and he knew he wasabout to propose.
And so we had this dish and thenwe went out to this, he found

(39:14):
this like weird back entrance tothis balcony that overlooked
Paris.
And he got down on one knee andhe asked me to marry him, and
then it started to pour rain.
So we're standing there and it'ssuper romantic and we're like
drenched and newly engaged andin love and like this taste of
chocolate and the smell of justrain in the air.
That's my aftertaste.
That would bring me back everytime.

I love that.
That reminds me.
It's funny, the few that came tomind like I think have
meaningful.
Connections, but not necessarilyone story Deeply connected.
I think I didn't go deep enough,is what I'm saying.
Not that they're bad.
You, I know you're not judgingme.
I'm judging myself.

Zero judgment.

So I'll share two others.
One, the first that came to mindwas when I was living in Harlem
I would go to a bodega and, likebasically build my own bodega
sandwich.
And

one does EZ one must.

And it like wasn't one of their pre-made
ones.
It wasn't a typical Turkeysandwich, but it was like a
spicy chicken with pepper jackcheese and sauteed peppers and
onions with mayo.

Well done.

And it was just like, it was like my go-to order
and they, to the point where thebodega knew what my order was.
And it just like that sort of asa.
Yorker was so special.
To walk in somewhere and theylike know what your special

Yeah, your regular order.

Yeah.
that was the very first thingthat came to mind hearing your
story.
When my husband and I were onour honeymoon we were in Rome
and we were at this fantasticrestaurant called De Enzo, and
it's in tri ere in this like alittle alleyway.

Aw.

literally our table was in an alley and we had
to move it to different times sothat a small car could go by.
But we ordered tiramisu fordessert and they only had one
left.
So

Oh, and you had to share it.
I love that.

very bottom was like a, I can't remember if it
was like a truffle, I think itmight have been a truffle like a
chocolate truffle that likeburst in my mouth.
And it

Ah,

the most delicious things I've ever had.

I love that.

was only one.

Ah.
Oh,

the only one of the two of us

who got to experience it?
So your husband can only livevicariously through your
description?

exactly.
And it

Oh, no.

here Mao, so we couldn't even get another one.

You know what you have to do, you have to go back
now.

I know.
I know.
So that for me, I think is, itencapsulates an aftertaste even
more.

But also that's real love that, that you got to
have it.

I don't think at the time we realized it was the
only one.
I was like, oh my God, what didI just put in my mouth?
And he was like, tell me moreand let me have some.
And

Oh, no.

wasn't a, I know.
It was not a conscious choice.
I know.

But I love that it's a moment that you guys
remember together and thatyou're in this special
experience together, that iswhat an aftertaste is.
For sure.

I, this has like only been a conversation about
food.
The,

Um,

Does it mean to you to feel full?
To be satiated?

I mean, I think there's the physical sense of
you've eaten a really deliciousmeal and you feel like your body
is no, no longer hungry.
But I am also an emotional eaterand so if I am sad or upset
about something, I will eat thewhole bag of chips.
I'll take down the whole thingof m and mss, all the Reeses in
the house and.

(42:43):
So I think for me, part offeeling satiated is also feeling
like safe and comfortable andfeeling like a sense of calm and
peace.
And so I think the meals that Ihave, where it's really relaxed
and I'm with my family and we'rehaving a conversation and it's
one of those the dessert hasbeen lingering out on the table
and you're sitting with yourcoffee and you're just like

(43:04):
talking and everyone's justhappy and you're like, making
that moment, like that to me isthe most satisfying.

Yeah.
It's so funny too.
'cause I, yes, like that allmakes complete sense to me.
And yet I also am thinking aboutwhat it means to have a full
heart

Mm

To be satiated emotionally or mentally.
And the ways that, I don't know,the way that we compare
everything in our world to.
Food and

mm.

Full and fulfilled,

Yeah.

that very fascinating.

I think there's a big connection between being
satiated and feeling fulfilledwith the full, the fullness.
But there's also similarlythere's so many ways to be
hungry, right?
There's the physical hunger, andthen there's like hunger for
touch, hunger for attention,hunger for affection, for
connection.
And so one of the things that Iwanted to try to play with in
this book too was the discoveryof all of those things and the

(43:59):
different kinds of hunger.

Totally.
I think that's why all of thesort of wordplay felt so
natural, because that's the wayto describe it.

Right?

hungry for touch.
There's no other way

There's no other way to say it.

Okay.
Lightning round,

Oh, no.
Okay.
I'm ready.

sweet or savory.

Oh.
Oh, no.
That I can't answer that.
Sour.

Oh,

Maybe neither.

Curve ball.
Okay.
Breakfast.
Sweet or savory.

Sweet,

Oh, interesting.
Okay.
Breakfast for dinner or dinnerfor breakfast.

dinner for breakfast.

Whoa.

very weird.
Very weird.

Tacos.
Hard shell.
Soft shell.

Yes.

Yes.
Good answer.
Coffee or tea?

Coffee in the morning, tea at night.

Pizza.
Pineapples.
Yes or no?

Yes.
Yes, but not always.

Fair.
Totally fair, right?
Yes.
Asterisk or vanilla?

Oh, that's not fair.
Swirl.
Swirl.

do.
I love a swirl.

A soft serve is a beautiful thing.
A beautiful thing with sprinkles

ice cream in a cap cone.

a cone.

Interesting.
Okay.
I

CA sugar cone with sprinkles and like maybe a
cherry,

Very traditional.
Look at you.
Cookies.
Soft or crunchy?

oh I'm gonna get pushback for this, but I like a
crunchy cookie.

Fair.
Totally fair.
It's fine.
It's fine.
It's fine.
It's fine.
Fries or onion rings.

Also, yes, I love an onion ring.

Okay.
Let's get specific.
What kind of fry?

I think a sweet potato fry If I have to really
choose like a traditionalpotato, then I'll do, I'll do a
truffle fry with like, with somecheese, which is like, so
blasphemous.
So I, I grew up eating this dishmy mom makes, which is just like
potatoes cut up into like littletriangles and fried in a pan and
a lot of butter.

(46:03):
And sometimes with like sauteedmushrooms and maybe I had too
much of it as a kid because I'venever been, like, regular french
fries are not my obsession.

I That makes total sense.
I would be the a hundred percentsame way.
Okay.
Finally, and this one is veryimportant to me.

Ooh, okay.

Creamy or crunchy?

Okay.
It's been a long evolution.

Oh my God, I I wanna hear everything.

I was a crunchy girl like my whole life.
Okay.
So actually, first of all, wehave to go back, way back.
So, we never had peanut butteras a kid growing up.
Never.
Never.
And I wanted it so desperately,so my family immigrated when I
was little.
We came here when I was two.
And all the kids in thecafeteria would be eating peanut

(46:47):
butter and jelly because thiswas before, you couldn't have
peanut butter in schoolsanymore.
But everyone having peanutbutter and jelly, and I would be
there with some thing in theTupperware that nobody could
pronounce and just feel otherand different.
Even though it was food that wascomfortable and made me feel
like home, it wasn't whateveryone else was eating.
And I was so desperate to belike American enough and to fit

(47:07):
in.
I begged for peanut butter andmy mom was convinced that peanut
butter was like super bad foryou, full of sugar, like full of
fat.
Just never.
Like as much as I asked, wenever had it.
And so left to my own devices.
When I got older, I would justbuy the whole jar and eat it
with a spoon.
And so I was very much a crunchygirl.
Loved having the grit and thebits of peanuts could not fathom

(47:31):
for the life of me.
People who had smooth peanutbutter.
I was like, but why?
What even resembles a peanut inthis?
I don't know.
So now I have children.

oh.
Mm-hmm.

Now I have kids and they like smooth.
And I will say that I have comearound because spreading smooth
peanut butter on something likean apple or a piece of celery is
very like it's very decadentfeeling.
It's nice.

Totally fair.
Do you keep both in the house?

No.
I just keep the stuff for mykids now I've let go of my
crunchy obsession.

Okay.
Okay.

What about you?

when I had Kathryn Neuman on we have a very
long conversation about this,but I have always been a crunchy
person.
I've continued to be a crunchyperson.
found out at this point, like ayear and a half ago, that my
husband prefers creamy.

Ah,

was

that's real love.
Okay.
That right there is real love.

said.
That's exactly what she said.
I was like, this has been, we,at that point, we'd been
together for 10 years.
and I didn't even know.
So now we often have bothcrunchy and creamy, and every
once in a while I'll use thecreamy when I'm, feeling a
little.

I love that.
I also feel like there should bea blend.
There should be a less crunchy,just sprinkled here and there
throughout.
Maybe

You can buy just chopped peanuts and

that's right in sprinkled, but it's different
'cause they're not enro in, theyhaven't been sitting.

been softened Oils and okay.
Okay.
We should write to someoneAftertaste.
Congratulations.

you

Everyone go by aftertaste.
By Daria Lavelle.
I could talk to you about foodall day long.

Same.

I love

This is so much fun.

So much fun.
Thank you for being here and

Thank you for having me.
This was a delight.

Harper! (49:16):
Guest Gay Reader time!

is That's not a Mr.
Bake hat.
That's just a big cat.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman (49:22):
Yes.
Yes.
to be honest with you, so I do,I am, Mr.
Bake is the more of the formal,but when I got the name, it was
by my friend and we all the sameage.
And I was we was the guy, youngtwenties,

he wouldn't call you Mr.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Quee (49:37):
Exactly.
The girls was like, we're notcalling you Mr.
So they made it, they made itmore street, more urban.
So they said, we're gonna callyou bake.
And it clicked.
So everybody he introduced me towas like, oh, this is my friend
bake.
This is my friend bake.
So then the people, it tookpeople.
Like two to three years, they'dbe like, okay, I'm sorry, what's

(49:58):
your real name?
And I'm like, and I'm like, it'sKareem.
But you can still say Mr.
Bake.
It's, you can still say bake.
It's cool.
Yes,

so in your twenties you were bake in your
thirties, you're Mr.
Bake.
In your forties you're gonna beDaddy Bake.

yes.
I like you already.
Yeah.
I.

Daddy Bake era?

I am excited because you already know
at 40 they already coined thegirl, the gays as being too old
anyways, so it might as well goahead and be daddy at that point
because they're gonna makeuncle, uncle Remy and all of
that.
Or what's up unc and all youlike, I'm not that old.
Stop it

Uncle Bake.

uncle Freaking bake.

Oh my God.
I, my birthday was last week andI.

belated.

Thank you.
I'll send you my address so youcan send me a cake.
That's the only reason why Iwanted to talk to you.

Damn.
You using me already for mycakes?
You ain't even get just like thegirls.
Just like

my

the girls.

baked for me, so I have nothing

Okay.
Okay.

Queenman, AKA Mr.
Bake.

Yes.

to Gay's Reading.

Yes.
Thanks for having me.

I'm obsessed with how this came to be.
You like, liked or commented onthe episode with the Fab RK
Russell.
And I was like, who's thishuman?
And I saw a clip of you and Iwas like, he needs to be a guest
on Kay's reading.
And I wrote to you and you werelike, I don't have a book,

I was like, I don't have a, don't
think this is the wrong person.

And I was like, no, it's not only for authors,
also for readers.
And your response was, oh, Ilove reading.

Yes.
Correct.
Correct.

Kareem, what are you reading Mr.
Bake?
What's on your, what's on yourto read list right now?
What's

Yes.
Yes.
So actually I have, a stack ofbooks I'm reading right now.

yes.

Yes,

of people who come to me with a stack of
books, I'm like, it gives mechills.

I am reading three books off and on.
Yes.
But I focus on.
At least one book as being likethe primal book that I'm
reading, so that I know that Ineed to finish that book.
The other book is usually morein the self-help range'cause
that I can pick up, put backdown, pick up, and put back
down.
So.

Like need the continuity of the story.

Exactly.
Exactly.
All right.
And then the, and then I havethree books is because I'm
actually about to moderate aconversation with a friend of
mine who just published hisfirst cooking storybook.
So I'm reading his book so thatI get, get my questions and get
ready to dive deep.

the line.
Oh my God, I'm so

Yes,

for you.

I'm excited for myself.

Have you ever done that before?

So I've moderated panel discussions
before just about like smallbusinesses, about, the business
of being queer, anything likethat in that realm, but never
it.

being queer.

Girl who you tillage

I'm still waiting for my paycheck,

why?
And then don't get, that'sdon't.
Please do not, we live inAmerica.
Please do not carry me downthat.

lost in the mail.
B, the taxes have been taken outand so it's$0.

Alright, so that book is called we The
Pizza by Ham.
And it's basically he is abusiness owner in Philadelphia
which he has a pizza shop, andhis pizza shop is catered
towards creating a space forincarcerated people, especially
within the Pennsylvania jailPennsylvania incarcerated

(53:42):
system.
So he, yep.
All of the employees that workfor the company has gone through
the system in some form ifthey've been locked up or been
on house arrest or any of thatnature.
So it creates a safe space forthem and also while diminishing
their return rate back into theprison system.

(54:02):
Um, Yes.
Yes.
And that's why I want to talk tohim even more about just.

already.

So we have this fabulous, beautiful
book with all these amazingcolors of just people enjoying
the pizza or the wings at theshop, outside of the shop.
And then as well as the story ofhow it got started, how he
picked his sous chef.
He talks about how he was onhouse arrest during the process

(54:32):
of building out and the openingof the pizza shop.
And then how he found hisoriginal sous chef, but that
didn't work out.
And then that sous chefintroduced him to someone else
who then became the executiveand the main chef who developed
most of the pizzas, sauces incombinations that they now
currently have at the shop.

That's so cool.
So it's stories, is it alsorecipes?

Correct.
It's stories and recipes.
So you get Yeah.
Exactly.
It's a book for everyone.
And then not only does he dothis, and as I'm reading
through, he also gives youlittle citations and quotes
about the incarcerated system inAmerica at the bottom of almost

(55:18):
each page.
So he takes this like 19, 1705.
Virginia slavery codes wasacted, and he talks about all of
that so you understand how thecriminal system has been
developed over years in theAmerican, in the United States.
Excuse me.
So it's a history book on theAmerican.

(55:41):
Incarceration system.
It is a history book on him andhis business owners and
executive chefs or how they gotstarted and their run-ins into
the incarceration system.
And then it's a recipe foranyone who's interested in
diving into breads and pizzamaking.

I, the moment we get off this call, I am ordering
it for myself.
This is awesome.
Oh my God.
See, this

Yeah.

why I do this.
I don't always know what peopleare gonna bring to the table, so
this is so good to know about.

Yes, absolutely.
Yes.
So then my everyday book isisaac Song by Daniel Black.
So it's the second edition tohis first book.
And I read the first book whileI was in a book club.
I was a part of a book club.
A queer book club at that, yes.
A queer book club for aboutthree years in the DC area.

(56:39):
And we read his.
First book.
And then I realized when he hadhis second book come out, I
said, absolutely.
So now I'm reading this book.
Oh my God.
And this book is so beautiful.
You know about the first book,you talked about his first book.
And his first book was basicallythe father's perspective of, how
he was raised in the ruralsouth, one generation out of

(57:01):
slavery and then moving, movinga little bit moving still in the
south, but just moving andcreated his own family.
Started, excuse me, started hisown family and then his child.
Wound up being queer and the himnavigating, that, having this
different son air quotes as wellas n navigating what it means to

(57:23):
be a father and provide for hisfamily.
And then now, oh my God, we getthe perspective of his son.
And it's, I tell you, this is.
Daniel Black is an amazingwriter.
From going from that first readand now getting the fa and
getting the young man'sperspective and then knowing the

(57:45):
perspective of the father.
So I'm reading it like, dad, saysomething.
'cause I know, I know whatyou're thinking already because,
Daniel already exposed us to thefather's internal thoughts and
now we are on the journey of theyoung man.
Who is finding self love?
You know what I mean?
Learning to love all of himself,but also learning to see his

(58:09):
father or both his parents,honestly, in a different light.
And it's been a beautifuljourney through, through the
help of a therapist.
So it's also normalizing.
Something that is so taboo inthe black queer community, in
black community in general, butthen specifically in the black
queer community where we don'tgo and seek therapy as a form of

(58:33):
mental help.
Most of us either navigatethrough life, we lean on our
friends, or we go to some typeof our spiritual homes or
practices to seek advice for howto navigate life.
So this is just such a beautifulbook.

you bake

exactly.
Oh, no, honey.
Okay, listen, honey, I'm a proudrecipient of therapy, baby.
So I tell everybody you need togo talk to somebody, girl,
because you coming to me everyday and I am.
Listen, listen.
I'm waking up every day tryingto show up for me,

Yeah.

and that's a journey in itself.
So

if they're gonna pay you, then maybe.

these girls child, these children are
not paying me.

I know,

I.

they did, that's a different story.

No shade if they did.
So I was always called MotherGoose of the group of my
friends.
So I have that mother instinctthat, come sit on my lap, let
me, let's talk, have a glass ofchampagne or Prosecco and just
ride it out.
So now I'm in my life where I'mlike, no honey, I'm doing way
too much for not just my, smallknit friends and community.
I'm doing it for the world now.

(59:45):
So it's it's a lot.

Mr.
Bake.

Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
Exactly.

Daddy Goose and then Daddy Bake as we have
already established.
Come on friends.
Get it together.
Oh my

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman (01:00:01):
Oh my God.
And then my book, I haven'topened this book yet, but it's
definitely on the nightstand,which is lighter.

Jason Blitman (01:00:09):
oh.

Can you see it?

let go of the past, connect with the present,
expand the future.

Yes.

about?
What do we think?

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Que (01:00:19):
basically it is.
Is basically going to I'mhoping, because I've read
several of his books before, isgoing to help me look at life
different, a different, likejust look at life differently.
I'm always into self-help.
I'm always into cha.
How can I use the.
The power of language to help nhave to give to other people to
help navigate their lives.

(01:00:40):
So one of the things I dooutside of baking and do media
is I talk and work with a lot ofyoung youth.
I talk to a lot of high schoolstudents who are about to
graduate high school and embarkon whatever is next for them.
May it be college, ent,entrepreneurship.
Whatever.
So I use these books to not onlystrengthen myself, but also have

(01:01:05):
tools that when I'm speaking andpresenting and mentoring the
youth, I'm giving them goodnotes that they can take on into
their journey of life.
So sowing a seed basically.
Yeah.

I, my time with you is limited, but I have so
many follow up questions like,how did you get into that?
That's so interesting.

Yes.

and I'm also like, brainstorming what your
book could be thinking about we,the pizza, it could be like
baking, but also little notes toyoung people about living your
best life and pursuing, gotta,I'm writing your book for you.

No.
Oh no, and I appreciate that.
If you are writer, please reachout to me.
Shameless plug.

all the listeners, if you wanna ghost
write a book.

I started writing a book, so it's
interesting you say that.
I started writing.
And it's basically gonna besimilar to what you said.
I am basically lining up recipesthat built Mr.
Bake.
I started baking since I was Istarted baking at a young age of
10 years old through interest ofjust Sweetss.
And then in middle school wassolidified that this is.
The industry that I wanted totackle and go into, so I'm

(01:02:14):
giving all the starter recipes Iwant to talk about, when I
didn't believe in myself, andyou know how I then showed up
with this particular recipe andthen won over all competitions
that I have entered in, as wellas

sweet potato cake?

it's the banana pudding that start
made off.

banana pudding.
The banana pudding that you madewith Kelly Clarkson.

Yes,

I consume your content.

yes.

Come on.
I prepare for my interviews.
Your banana pudding is whatstarted it all.

Yes.
Yes.
So that won be my first evercompetition.
So talking about that, talkingabout the story of how I made
that recipe in my room in thedark.
'cause my mother, if you knowanything about certain
households, my, especially inblack households, when the
kitchen is cleaned in, thedishes, in the food is done and
the dishes is done and thefloors mopped, the kitchen is

(01:03:08):
closed.
Baby.
And my mother was like, I don'tcare what you want to do, you're
not doing it in there.
So I took everything, the handmixer, the bowls, the bananas,
everything, the cutting boardand only with the TV light.
I made this banana pudding.
Took it to school the next dayand wound up winning over 30

(01:03:28):
other desserts that were in,that were entered into the
competition.

Oh, that's amazing.
And I heard on, I wanna sayanother podcast, that you
weren't allowed to have an easybake oven as a kid

no, I was not

but do you think that actually helped you because
you

not having one.

I.

It, no, because I, yeah.

You like went from the Easy Bake oven to the
like hard bake oven.
You like,

Yeah, I guess you could say it.
Yeah, it did help.
It helped in a way of, it forcedme to work with the real oven,

skipped the easy part and went right to No.
All right.
If I can't do it the easy way,I'm gonna do it the real way.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queem (01:04:08):
listen, nobody was gonna stop my joy and
stop this interest in baking forme.
So it'll be stories like that,being telling people to.
Even if your parents or peopleyou love don't believe or
understand what you're doing,you have to still keep pressing
on.
When you have a burning desireinside of you still keep
pressing on,

that.

Yes,

In another conversation, said that you like
your food to taste like you atyour best.

Yes.

to you?

That basically means that we are not
only.
Chefs and artists, we are alsostorytellers.
You tell stories through thefood in which you make,
especially if you go to schooland get trained.
You typically get immersed inFrench technique and French
style of cooking that you lose.

(01:05:00):
What you grew up eating, andthat's a representation really
of who you are when you'resaying, when I'm telling you I'm
my banana pudding recipe, and Isent and I made, was able to
make it for Kelly Clarkson.
I'm sharing the story of my auntsharing that recipe with me and
then me sharing that recipe withall the high school entries that
I competed in that competition.

(01:05:22):
And then to take that and now.
Spread that joy along the world,so I'm telling the story of my
food through that.

You're not just, we're not just tasting your
training.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Quee (01:05:33):
Exactly.
You're also tasting and hearingand feeling the food.

see the young person, with the blue light
glowing from the TV in his room.
Yeah.
Oh, how special.
I

Yes.

where can the people find you?

Yes, you can find me on Instagram Mr
Bake sweets.
So that'sM-R-B-A-K-E-S-W-E-E-T-S as well.
Okay.
You gotta give'em all of that.
That S okay.
And the website is the same, mrbake sweets.com.
My ex is the same, Mr.

(01:06:10):
Bake.
Sweet.
And my TikTok is the only one.
TikTok is the only one.
A little different.
It's Chef Kareem, Mr.
Bake.
Queenman.

Yeah.
Oh, nice and long.
Gotta keep it long for theTikTok.

Stop it.

Okay.
A question that I've been askingeveryone that I think that is
like new and different andimportant because in a world
where we want to amplify thepeople that are near and dear to
us and who make us who we are,when you die, who would you turn
to to delete your search historyon your computer?

That is the most fun and random
question.
Who thinks of that?
Oh, I a hundred percent wouldgive it to my best friend who
I've known and family now since1994.
Dr.
Shaniqua Johnson, she knows allthe tales.

And

she And she know.
Yeah.
And she do.
Yes.
She, yes, she knows.
Let me go ahead.

Is she a doctor like your, like your daddy?

She,

She's actually, she has a degree.

she has a degree.
She a.

Okay.
Woo.
She just likes diagnosingpeople.

Oh my God.
So I would ha she woulddefinitely be the one, she
already has a lot of access now,so she would definitely be the
one.

Oh my God.
Yes.

all the te and she knows all the
dark alley tales, honey of theback young.
She know all the young bakedtales

Yeah, baby.
Big.

that baby bake baby.

Oh my God.
Kareem, Mr.
Big em Thank you

Yes.

here.

No, thanks for having me.
I appreciate this moment.
Yes,

Everyone go check him out on all the places you'll
be able to say you knew himwhen, because the greatest of
great things are in the future.
I'm so excited for you

yes,

a wonderful rest of your day.

you do the same.
Thank you so much.
Thanks Daria.
Thank you Kareem.
Everyone go check out Aftertasteby Daria.
Lavell available now whereveryou get your books.
Have a great rest of your week.
Thanks everyone.
Bye bye.

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