Fredrik Backman (My Friends) feat. Erika J. Simpson, Guest Gay Reader

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Gays reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what andwhy.
Anyone can listen Comes we arespoiler free.
Reading from stars to book clubpicks we're the curious minds
can get their picks.
Say you're not gay.

(00:24):
Well that's okay there somethingeveryone.
Hello and welcome to GaysReading the book podcast for
everyone.
I'm your host, Jason Blitman,and I am so happy to have you
here today along with ourguests, the prolific bestselling

(00:44):
author, Fredrik Backman, and myguest gay reader for the day I.
Debut Memoirist Erika j Simpson,who Roxanne Gay calls a writer
who is absolutely going places.
Both Fredriks and Erika's biosare in the show notes.
If you are new to Gays reading,welcome and if you've listened
before I.
Thank you so much for comingback.

(01:05):
GA's Reading is an indie podcastand a labor of love of mine.
So if you are enjoying the show,please like and subscribe
Wherever you get your podcasts.
Share us with your friends andif you are so inclined, leave a
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It means so much, And thank youto those of you who have already

(01:27):
done so.
You can also find gays readingall over the place.
We are on Instagram at GaysReading.
We're on Blue Sky, YouTube.
You could watch these episodesand newly on Substack, so make
sure to check that out.
I have some exclusive contentover there and a bunch of free
stuff, uh, for free subscribersas well.
Tonight I'll be in conversationwith actor Lily Taylor talking

(01:50):
about her book Turning to Birds,and the recording of that
conversation will be featuredover in the Substack, some books
that are publishing today that Iwanna shout out.
Disco Witches of Fire Island byBlair Fell, which, speaking of
Substack, I have a fantastic Qand A with Blair over there.
Shop Girls by Jessica Anya Blau,who of course wrote Mary Jane,

(02:13):
which was one of my favoritebooks a couple of years ago.
Another new book, all TheMothers by Dominica Ruta.
I have started this book.
I'm about 15 to 20 pages in andI'm really loving it so far.
It's so funny and I am surprisedthis is not popping up in more
places'cause I, uh, I think it'sgonna be really great and I'm
looking forward to reading it.

(02:34):
Home of the AmErikan Circus byAllison Larkin.
I loved her 2021 novel.
The people we keep.
I can't wait to pick this oneup.
The river is Waiting by WallyLamb, which was my very first
Wally Lamb, and it wasdevastating and I hear that.
Par for the course for WallyLamb, but it was, it was really
terrific.
And also the original daughterby Jemimah Wei.

(02:56):
Uh, Jemimah is next week's Gaysreading guest, and she is in
Aardvark book Club selectionthis month.
And of course, I'm continuing mypartnership with Aardvark Book
Club to provide an exclusiveintroductory discount.
New members in the United Statescan join today and enter the
code.
Gays reading at checkout to gettheir first book for only$4 and

(03:19):
free shipping.
You can get your copy of theoriginal daughter by Jemimah
Wei, uh, for only$4 by going toa artwork book club.com and
using the code Gays reading.
It's such a good deal.
They're great on social media.
I'm a big supporter of a artworkbook club and appreciate all of
their support as well.
All of that said, thank you somuch for being here and enjoy my

(03:40):
conversations with FredrikBeckman and Erika Jay Simpson,

Fredrik Backman (03:45):
I have one who likes to stay at home and the
son likes computers and thedaughter, she goes to Brazilian
jitsu and she drives go-karts.

Jason Blitman (03:52):
Oh my.
She's so cool.

have one of each.

I'm sure he is very cool too, but in, in a
different way.
In a way that I understand alittle bit more.

he is I have one very introverted and one,
one very extroverted.

Yeah.
You relate to him, I'm sure.

knew that it could happen because my wife and
I are very different people, soit makes

Yes.

So we're not entirely surprised.
We're

No, I've heard you talk on other interviews
about some of those differencesbetween you and your wife and
how that shakes out in life andin your writing.
And so this doesn't surprise meeither as a consumer of your
content.

think the basic difference is that she actually
likes things and I don't, so

That sounds about right.
That sounds about right.
It's so funny.
I will say welcome to first,welcome to Kay's Reading.
Uh, we can be curmudgeonstogether.

I, I try to explain to people that I make a
living from sitting alone in aroom talking to

Yeah.

haven't made up.
If I enjoyed real people, Iwould be out in the real world
and, would sell cars or be inoffice or,

sell cars is their first go-to,

do one of the things where you,

right?
No, of course.
I, of course.
I'm grateful that you stay athome and talk to the people that
are imaginary because that meanswe get more of your books and I
love them.
So thanks for that.
You are here to talk about yournewest, my friends, your new
beautiful book.
Have you worked out an elevatorpitch for it yet?

no, I don't have elevator pitches.
I have, my wife, whenever

No, just

me, I know, because you sit once in a while.
I'm not in meetings a lotbecause my

Uhhuh,

runs the business

right?

and she's done that for eight years because
everybody just, in 2017 I had aburnout and then everybody just
kinda realize that this is notgonna work out.
So she took over everything.
She runs the business, I handleeverything that's in imagination
and she handles everythingthat's in, in reality.

Yeah.

So very rarely do I sit in on meetings, but
when I do and someone asks mefor an elevator pitch, my, my
wife, she rolls her eyes sohard, she gets a concussion.
And then she says, is theelevator stuck?

Right.
How many floors is it?

he can do it.
He can do it Is stuck.
do you have 45 minutes?

Right.

roughly what it's about.

No, you should just say read it or don't.

Yeah.
It's I know it's very now

publicist is gonna love that.
I just said that.

I feel like you can only do an elevator pitch on
something that you haven'tcreated yourself, if that makes
sense.

Yeah, because you're able to see it from the
outside.

I think you and you also have to make an
elevator pitch, you have to,there's some, you have to, I
feel like people use elevatedpitches and they go, o it's like
this, a reference of choice andthen meets this reference of
choice with.
A sprinkle of this, but then,that's all depending on what

(06:54):
that reference is to you.

Yeah so using that model, I would say it is
art meets friendship orfriendship meets art.
And what would you say is asprinkle of

I don't know.
Violence perhaps.
Because it's I think

yeah.

I had this discussion with someone the
other day.
It doesn't have, someone said itdoesn't actually have a lot of
violence in it, but it feelslike violence.

Yeah.

For whatever elevator pitch I can make.
It's two stories.
It's one takes place 25 yearsago and one takes place now.
And the then story is these thisgroup of friends and they all
know that they're not gonna makeanything out of themselves.
They all know that they're notgonna leave this town that
they're in, and they're notgonna they all know that they're

(07:40):
not gonna amount to anything.
And they live this they comefrom these, these functional
homes.
And

I wanna tell you, I heard you.
We are, the elevator is notstuck.
You don't have to come up withan elevator pitch.
That is, let's just talk aboutyour book.
I have so many questions.
Let's just talk about it.

but it's the thing that I wanted, it's about
these kids.
It's about most of the people inthe story are teenagers and,

Yeah.

you feel at the mercy of the world.
You're not in control of yourenvironment.
you're left to the, the goodgracious of other people.

Yeah.

You are left at the mercy of a lot of adults.
And if those adults are not wellintended then you are then you
are screwed.

Yeah.

it's that threat.
I think it's the threat ofviolence more than actual
violence.
They're not that much violencein it, but the constant you live
under the constant threat ofviolence.
And

We all do.

the running

Yeah.

threat in the book.

Yeah.
You just talked about adults andsomething that you say early on
in the book is that adults arethe worst kind of humans, which
I hard agree.
We are the worst though.
I like to still think I'mrelatively young.

I do think that adults are the word.
It's the opening line of thebook, so it's not a spoiler or
anything.
It's,

No, it's not.

I think I think adults are the worst kind of
humans.
It's I put a lot of hope to the,

Why do you think that is?
Why do we suck?
Why are we the worst?

We're supposed to be, and then the kids are
supposed to be better.
My daughter is in charge ofmusic in the car to, to school
in morning, in the mornings.
And Because my son doesn't care.
And so she's in charge of musicand once in a while she'll play
something.
All of a sudden guns and rosesbecame big again because it's,
because of TikTok, becausesomeone

Oh,

and the TikTok and then,

welcome back.
Guns N Roses.

for a minute, guns and roses were huge.
With 11 year olds, which was,which is nice.
But it was also, I told her likeI, it's fun whenever you find
something that I listen to whenI was a kid but whenever she
listens to something that Idon't understand, that I don't
get, I try to remember that'show it's supposed to be.
Like it's, she's supposed tolisten to things that I don't

(09:52):
get, and she's supposed to dothings that I don't understand,
and she's supposed to think thatI'm stupid.
It's, that's how it's supposedto be,

That's the circle of life.

move forward

Yeah.
Yeah.

The only reason that we have hope in the youth
is because may, maybe you won'tfall in the same traps as us,
and maybe

Yeah.

Maybe you'll actually stick to your ideals
for a little while and maybeyou'll be different.

I'm gonna guess that I know the answer to this
question, but I'll ask just incase anyway.
Are you open-minded?
Do you like learning from her orare you just girl, live your
life.
I'm gonna, it's okay that Idon't get it.
I don't want to get it

of the time I would say that I don't have the
energy

right.

be I very rarely have the energy to be
curious.
It's, But but I learned, youlearn stuff anyway.
If you hang around your kids forlong enough, it's, you're gonna,
you can't help but learn things.

Right.

It kinda sticks and I think last year, you know,
the Spotify wrapped.

Oh yeah.
Yeah.

I think I was, I think my Spotify was the, I
was, I think it was the top, top5% of Taylor Swift listeners
that year, which I've never,like for myself, decided that
I'm gonna listen to Taylor Swiftnow,

Uhhuh.

but we had a lot, we, we drove back and forth
to Spain last summer, so therewas a lot of Taylor Swift going
on, and then I just, my, my wifejust said, you know when you
drop the kids off at school?
I'm like, yeah, do you changethe music when they get out?
And I I probably don't.

Right,

Have like a a half an hour, 40 minutes to your
office then?

right.

Yeah.
She says that might be it.

So it just seeps into you.

that it seeps into your life, I would give
myself good chances in, in, in acompetition to recite

Lyrics.

lyrics.
I think.
I know a little too much.
But it's it's nice.
I have, my kids now, I have whatI enjoy the most is that they,
they introduce me to, we'vealways watched a lot of movies
and a lot of TV shows togetheras a family, because How my wife
and I, that's how we built ourrelationship because that was

(12:06):
the only thing that we had incommon to begin with.
Like the only thing that we bothgenuinely loved and where we
loved the same things.
We didn't like the same music.
We didn't like the same books.
We didn't like the same art.
We didn't like the sameanything, but we like.
like we could go to the cinema.
So it's always, since the kidswere small we just, we go to the

(12:27):
cinema all all the time.
So they just learned somehowthat this is a family thing.
Like they,

Yeah.

haven't told them now that the teenagers
that, you don't, not like in lawor anything.
You don't have to do it with us.
You could go to the cinema byyourself, but they haven't quite
figured that out yet, whichwe're grateful for.

That's very nice.

so they, I think what I enjoy most is that,
that, they introduced me to, tomovies and TV shows that I
would've never found otherwise.

Yeah.

and we can watch sitcoms together, which is
awesome because you hear yourkids laugh Have that moment
where, oh, now, we're laughingat the same thing.
And that's such a bonding momentbecause I

Yeah.

the first time that happened to me and my dad.
My dad is not a.
My dad doesn't laugh a lot.
He doesn't laugh out loud a lot,Remember him laughing out loud,
laughing out loud at somethingat the TV at the same time.

Do you remember what it was?

I remember exactly what it was and I'll
remember for the rest of mylife, and that's

Can you share it or you don't wanna share it?

It's a Swedish Two Swedish comedians

oh, fun.

like the seventies, eighties so really
old school

Yeah

but I remember it so well that yeah, it's a
kind of an Abbott Costello

sure.

duo.
And and I remember it so clearlythat kinda.
It was such a pivotal moment forthe way I view humor and comedy.
The way I write jokes, I thinkis, you can trace it all the way
back to there.

Huh?

and because that's when I figured out that
if, you have to construct a jokefor someone, you like to make
them laugh, that's why it works.
Construct it for an audience.
You have to construct it forsomeone, to make them laugh, and
then other laughs will follow.
But that's not the importantlaugh.
The important laugh is the onethat you,

The intentional one?

you are human.
And,

Yeah.

I think so I, I, they when, now that they
introduce me to something we'llwatch a TV show.
We'll laugh at the same thing.
Or they'll send me a reel or ameme or whatever.
It's, whatever the words are,they'll send me something that
they know will make me laugh.

Yeah.

then I laugh when they come in from the other
room.
I knew you would laugh at that.

Yes.

stupid dad joke.
And then they'll criticize mefor laughing.
But they knew exactly what Iwould like.
They pinpointed my sense ofhumor in a way that, and these
are the things that I learnedfrom.
And also the they read a lot.
Especially my daughter reads aton.
And she'll introduce me to a lotof books that I wouldn't have
been introduced to otherwise.
And the, understanding that, oh,you're reading this.

(15:06):
Oh, this is why you like it.
Okay, what is the, what is theappeal of this country?
Oh, you didn't like this, butthis should have been, no, you
didn't like that, but you Andyou have this opportunity to,
that's how I get to knoweveryone.
I think I, I have too manysocial issues to figure people
out, but I can figure it out oh,you like these thing?
I wanna know what you like, I

So you're contradicting yourself because
you are much more open tolearning from your children than
you initially.
Let me believe,

it, If you hang out with your kids enough, you
can't.

right?
It happens.

But they are I mean they like a lot of crap
too.
Not everything that they theylike a lot of bad things, it's
I'd say it's a nice thing, butespecially I think the books the
last couple years has beenawesome.
Going to a bookstore with mydaughter was.
The

Yeah.

moment where I to someone in the book industry
a while back at a bookpublishing house, they were all
complaining, the book industry,the book, everything is a crisis
and the kids don't read anymore.
And because that's the, like themantra of the book industry

Yeah.

reads and everything is going, I'm like, I
don't know what you're talkingabout.
But the kids are fine.
About the kids.
Maybe people my age don't readas much, but that's a us
problem.

Mm-hmm.

Blame that on the teenagers.
The teenagers read a ton if yougo into any bookstore, it's
just, it's their world now.
They've absolutely taken overand and I think that's awesome.
Started going into bookstoreswith my daughter maybe three,
four years ago she startedfinding books of her own I wanna
I need that.
That.
And we had to go, to a and shewants to go to a physical store.

(16:43):
She wants to browse,

Yeah.

move around, she wants to see the books, she
wants to hold'em, she wants.
That really changed the entireway.
I think that I view the industryand the, I accept none of the
gloom now of,

Yeah,

industry is dying.
The industry is absolutely notdying.
The

no.
And something amazing about yourbooks is that they are
relatively universal andteenagers can pick those up as
well in addition to adults andeveryone can get something out
of it.
Back to your humor for a second.
I laugh a ton in reading yourbooks, so I feel like we have a
very similar sense of humor, orat least how it's translated

(17:23):
into English.
But there's something inparticular in my friends that is
very universal, and I don'tthink this is a spoiler, but a
very huge part of the book atthe nucleus of the book is a
fart.

Yeah,

Why is that so funny to everybody?

it is not funny to everybody.
Let me tell you, because therewas a lot of criticism among,
publishers and early readers andeverything that there were too
many fuck jokes.
I've taken some far jokes out tobe fair.
So there aren't as many farjokes as there was to begin
with,

Frederick I counted them.
Do

How many other.

you wanna guess

I have absolutely no idea

28?

28, but I think that's a reasonable amount.
It's over 400 pages.
I think 28 fart jokes

The percentage is pretty solid.

Yeah, I think it's a, I think it's a
reasonable amount.

Yeah.

it was just this thing that, I don't know.
I think my, I think part of itis that my children are now ju
when I wrote this book, mychildren are just now too old
for fart jokes, if that makessense.

No, it doesn't make sense because we're all
children inside of us.

them, it makes them twice as funny to me.
I, it said the, because the bookis about.
Teenagers.
But the most of the teenagersare, they're living 25 years
ago,

Yeah.

I don't try to write.
I told, don't try to pretendthat I know what it's like to be
a teenager today.
I write them the way it was 25years ago.
And, with the belief that Idon't think it has changed that
much.
I think the world around us haschanged a lot, but I don't think
the basic emotions that you gothrough as a teenager trying to

(19:16):
find your way in life I don'tthink the friendship that you
have as a teenager, I don'tthink any of that changed.
I think that's the same now asit was 25 years ago.
But I

Yeah.

The, since these teenagers are, they're
grown up in this with thisthreat of violence, this
darkness, this, this they have,they carry this immense sadness.
They have lost parents.
They, they've been throughreally rough things and they
carry this sadness and this fearand this, this overwhelming

(19:49):
darkness within them.
The t jokes are there to remindthe reader and to remind me that
these are kids.

Yeah.

There's the kids.
And at that turning point whenyou are 1415, where you're
kinda, you are not, you're notan adult yet, but you're also
not quite a kid.
And that's such a the fart jokesis just there to remind me and
the reader that these are stillkids They're fighting for the
right to be kids.
they're really struggling.

(20:18):
Like we, we don't wanna stopbeing kids.
We want the right to kids.
We Summer and just be stupid andchildish and, irresponsible and
misbehave and do stupid stuffbecause that's what you are
supposed to do when you're ateenager.
That's your job.
It's your It's your job to bestupid.

and I would argue though too, that it's not only a
reminder to us that they'rekids, but it's a reminder to us
that it, the word fart is in thebook 28 times to say, adults
that are reading this, you'reallowed to find this funny.
You can be it could be levityfor you too.
And I think that was a nicereminder to me of oh, I'm

(20:57):
allowed to laugh with them.
The book is it's about art, it'sabout chosen family, about
finding your people.
It is dedicated to anyone who'syoung and wants to create
something, do it.
Was that advice that was givento you?

No,

Mm.

I maybe, I kinda wish that someone had
given me that advice, at somepoint.
I think it's, on, on top of allthe fart jokes, which are there,
because, I enjoy them and, I, Ithink, this story in particular
needs, a lot of jokes to kindabeat the vehicle so that, the

(21:36):
darkness of it doesn't becomeoverwhelming.
but I think at its core, if youknow what I really wanted to
book to be, I struggled for areally long time.
That's insanely long story.
But I struggled.
I've never struggled so muchwith my confidence as I did, the
last two years.
I've never had so many momentswhere I felt like I, I don't

(21:57):
think I'm gonna do this anymore.
because I felt like I don't haveit.
Whatever I had gone and I neverquite knew what I, what it was I
had, which makes it, when youfeel like you can't find your
way.
It's, I don't have, I don't havea formula to go back to.
I don't

If you don't know what's lost, you can't find it.

no.
Because I don't know

Yeah.

the first place.

Yeah.

I've written books that are to me quite
different.
and so I had, so I just had, itwas a two year long breakdown.
I also had health problems and Ihad, as I, for a long while, I
had long discussions with mywife that maybe I shouldn't do
this anymore because it just,it's not, I don't think this is

(22:43):
good for me.
I don't think it's good for mybrain.
I think

Yeah.

messing me up more than anything.
and I wrote the first draft ofthis book, and to put it
bluntly, a few people read it.
Publishers, a few trustedreaders and you have this focus
group.
And no one liked it.
and it's not like people tellyou that we don't like it.
It's, you get it back and youknow the difference between

(23:10):
excitement and not, and you getit back and you can see it in
eyes that this is not it's notthere.
nothing is happening here.
and my wife told me that, in theway that she does that, it's
pretty dark freak.
when you tell a story, normallyit's, there's a lot of darkness,
but you have this light comingthrough it, and that's what
makes it special.

(23:32):
And there's no light here.
because there's not a light in,not a lot of light in you right
now.
Maybe as a writer, I was doingfine as a human being.
I, I.
it was just the writing part.
As a writer, I felt like I'mjust in a hole.
And,

Yeah.

and then, out of that came, two pieces of
advice.
There was, writers that I knowthat I trust a lot were
exceptional writers.
And one of them said, you know,I get angry with you every time
you leave the pier with thekids.
Like that you, they're on thatpier and I think it's awesome.
And then every time you leavethat pier, I just get angry with

(24:08):
you because it's, because thatpart is so great in the other
part is just in comparison,nothing.
So I took everything out exceptfor the parts that I had with
the kids of the peer.
And I rewrote the whole thing.
And the whole now story camefrom that.
and, because the whole now storythen focused on, okay, I have to
write about someone my age.

Yeah.

a lot of me in it.
and then maybe we'll findsomething.
And then the other piece ofadvice was that another writer
said, you know what, it made mereally want to be a better dad.
And that feedback on it.
He just said, it really made mewanna be a better dad.
And I just clung to that andfelt like, all right, what can I

(24:51):
do with this?
And then I sat down and I felt,okay, I'm gonna write this as if
it was my last book.
I'm gonna write it as if,because I had been talking so
much to my wife about retiringfrom writing and or retiring
from book publishing.
I would still write, I

sorry.
The machine.
Yeah.

retiring.
So I, I sat down and I thoughtif this was going to be my last
book, if this is the last thingthat I ever published.
What would I want it to be?
And me, the, I always thoughtthat my last book would be for
someone who wants to write, Iwanna write it for someone who
wants to do the things that Ido.

(25:34):
And if this is the last thingI'll do, I'll try to, I'll try
to write it for you if you are.
So that's where the dedicationcame from.
So I wrote

Yeah.

When I started to rewrite the book, I just
started with a new document andthe first thing I wrote is, what
was that dedication

Yeah.

and wants to create something, do it.
then kinda, that was the whole,that was the whole anthem of
the,

Yeah.

the story after that.
And then whenever I got lost, Iwent back to that.
I'm

Right.

person, nevermind, I.
Nevermind the critics.
Nevermind the people who are notgonna the book, because that's
the problem.
You're right.
And you think about the peoplewho are not gonna the book, but
they're not

Yeah.

the book either way.
So it doesn't care, doesn'tmatter.
But you know that was the personI wrote it to, so that's where
the dedication came from.

Yeah.
Thank you for sharing all ofthat.
I think not dissimilar from thefart joke.
It was a, that's a nice reminderof these kids are teenagers and
they're allowed to be having funand the dedication for you to
turn back whenever you lost yourway.
This is who the book is for.
And frankly, it comes, thatcomes across, it comes through.

(26:43):
My background is in theater.
I'm not a writer per se.
I've had author friends tell methat.
You are the story you tellyourself.
And so if you tell yourselfyou're not a writer, then you're
not gonna be one.
And that's a different, that'sbesides the point.
I'm also gay and chosen family,and finding family is so

(27:04):
important to me, and that is somuch of what this book is about.
Your protagonist is gay.

Yeah.

that come from?

You know, I wish I had a good answer to
that, but I don't know.

That's okay.

that in my mind he

I, that's all that's it doesn't need to be
profound.

No, no.
It was just, there wasn't,

Yeah.

in a while I get these questions, why is this
person this?
Why is this character this?
Why is the, why did you choosefor this character to be?
And it's very rarely that I havea strong.
Super smart answer.
It's very often just be becausethey are, because I wanted it to
be about different kinds oflove, if that makes sense.

Yes it does And I think that is how it read on the
page.
I think it was me turning what Iwanted to make a statement into
a question.
'cause really what I just wantedto say to you is that it meant
something to me that's who cameout of you.
And I didn't just want to saythat, so I asked a question, but
No,

no.
But, but it's, it's, no, Iappreciate that.
I appreciate that a lot.
I just wish I had a more,

no,

and smart

I,

answer.
It's just to

but Frederick, I have to tell you that the fact
that you don't is meaningfulBecause for him to just be is
more than we get sometimes.

it's, um, but it was also because the whole
story is about love, but it'salso about, unanswered love.
And it's also about this is allthat this relationship can be,

Yeah.

and he decides to be fine with it.
and, there's this discussionabout, being, you are friends
with someone and you're so closethat this is as close as you can
get to being something more thanfriends.
This is the absolute closest youcan be to being more than
friends.

Yeah.

and I, that was the thing that I was that,
because either you get that oryou don't.
I think if you explain that tosomeone, you're, you, if you
ever had a friendship that waslike, this is such an intense
friendship that it, this isabsolute close that you can get
to.
This is as absolute close as youcan get, to love someone and not

(29:25):
being in love with them.
This is

Yeah.

closest you can get.
and I was looking for thatbecause I think the older you
get the more difficult it is toexperience that.

Yeah.

I think you, you close too many parts of
yourself off and Maybe it camefrom that because that was the,
that's was the thing that I wassearching for.
And

Yeah.

it was obvious that, it was obvious to me the
same way that it is obvious toLuisa with the teenager that he
travels with She figures him outso quickly

Yeah.

he's kinda, he's both, a little touched but
also deeply,

It's exposed.

and a little angry.
Like he is a

Yeah.

insult.
Like he's, he thinks it's verynice, but it is also very deeply
insulting,

Right.

him because he, to him, it's not that obvious.
I think most men that I know,gay or straight or whatever, we
have this idea that we are enus,that we are riddles, that we are
un, we are impossible tounderstand.
And I had this, at some point,it's we're really not, like most

(30:34):
of us are really, it doesn'tmatter.
It's like you are not ascomplicated as you think you
are.
Um,

Yourself.

and that was the, that was the, so that was
the moment where she,

Yeah.

start, starts talking about him.
and he is, he's a littleinsulted because he never talk
and she's just, she saw straightthrough him,

Yeah,

and she was fine with it.
she doesn't put any value in itone way or the other.
She doesn't care.
It's just

no, and he's just existing.
Nothing really is about hissexuality really.
I said earlier, the book isabout empathy.
It's about all sorts of things.
And my background is in theater.
I, during COID, when the worldshut down and people weren't
gathering and there was notheater I needed to have.

(31:23):
A real existential moment ofwhat was it about this art form
that meant something to me?
And so I boiled it down andboiled it down and it was about
storytelling and about empathy,and about teaching empathy and
about sharing other people'sstories.
And that's how I segued intobooks and segued into this

(31:46):
podcast because hearing fromother people is the best way to,
to learn empathy.
To gain empathy.
And specifically in the book,there's a quote that art is
empathy.
Can you unpack that?
What does that mean to you?

I mean in that, that, I'm just not to turn this
answer in into a Ted Talk now.
the,

It's a short elevator ride, Frederick.

it's a recurring theme now that, I was
trying to explain what art is tome

Yeah.

in the way

I have a whole list of how, I imagine you
define it'cause

and also the, I, a lot of that comes from the
fact that, first of all, youtalk about, being a writer and
you are what you tell yourselfthat you are and I steer away
from the word author.
that's my defense to it.
Like, I'm not an author.
I'm not trying to be an author.
I'm not, it's not my goal.
It's not my intention.

(32:44):
I'm a storyteller.
So that's how I, that's how

Can you say to someone who might not understand
the difference, is there a briefway to describe what the
difference is to you?

author is, that's this huge, because it's a
defense mechanism.
Because what you have is youhave this, you had, it's this
deep imposter syndrome thatevery sane person has.
if you meet a person who doesn'thave an imposter syndrome, it's
like

If they're, if they don't have imposter
syndrome, then they're liars.

if they don't have imposter syndrome, it's, if
they don't have impostersyndrome, they're dangerous.
It's it's also, I don't, I havenothing in common with people.
I don't know what to talk aboutwith people who.
Who think they're really good atwhat they do.
It is I don't know where tostart with you.

Yeah.

like, you have to start with me, with your
flaws and your fears and your,we have to start.
Are you afraid of heights?
Can we start there?
spiders, perhaps I don't, let'sstart with your phobias.
I don't know.
But we can't start with what youfeel that you are great at,
because

Hmm.

have anything I feel that I'm great at.
and, so it starts with theimposter syndrome.
It starts with the fact that Ididn't think I was gonna, I
liked writing.
I like.
It's, like stories.
The only thing I ever liked whenI was growing I just loved
story.
I just loved not be in reality.
I just loved the fact thatsomeone could take me someplace

(34:09):
else.

Yeah.

I just, I still love stories.
It's still the only thing that Ireally enjoy.
I love it when other writers,once in a while other writers
will show me something they'vewritten and then, if you have
any notes or feedback, and I'mlike, do I?
And then, they're like, yeah,let's go for lunch.
And then, four hours laterthey're like, you really thought
about this?

(34:31):
I'm like, this

Hmm.

thing I enjoy.
This is the

Yeah.

I like.
I this is the talking about astory.
It's the only thing I like, likedissecting something.
Why is this good?
Why is

Yeah.

It's like the only, it's the only thing I
enjoy.
but I had this.
this overwhelming film that thisis not something that I can do.
This is not something, I'm notgood enough.
I'm not talented enough.
I don't know, understand thecraft enough.
I'm not good enough at thelanguage.
I'm not, I, my grammar sucks.
Whatever it whatever it is that,that the obstacles that you

The story we're telling ourself

and,

man.

and then, slowly, I just figured out that,
all through my twenties, Ibattled this, trying to find
out, can I write, should Iwrite?
Am I allowed to write?
because you need, you meet a lotof people who tell you that you
shouldn't write because you'renot writing the way that you're
supposed to, and you are we, youknow, an author is this.
And, then I just figure out,okay, what if I'm not an author?

(35:30):
What if I, what if my goal isnot to be an author?
What if my goal is not to be,what, if my goal is not for
critics to love me or for anyoneto say that I'm smart, what if
my goal is not to win awards orwhatever?
what if that is not, what if thegoal is just, something else?
And I figured out slowly that,I'm not a great writer.

(35:51):
I'm not, I'll never be a greatauthor, but I'm pretty good at
telling stories.
Like I how a story isconstructed and I really enjoy
that part of it.
Like how you build things, thelittle blocks that you in there.
And I, slowly but surely Ifigured out that May, maybe I
can do this.

(36:12):
and I had the same.
And then I met my wife and Irealized wow, I have the same.
I have the exact same impostersyndrome when it comes to art.
Like this because I didn't, likeI was, I had a lot of literature
in my life as a kid, but Ididn't have a lot of art in my

(36:33):
life as a kid.
so I, I never felt like I wouldgo to a museum with my wife.
And my wife is really into art,and she studied art for a little
while, and she's, she, she's,she's really into that, an
annoying extent because she'salso, I'll say, I really like
this and I'll, put a reference.
And she's yeah, it's the wrongreference, but I love you.

(36:53):
but

But also having an emotional response to
something is importantregardless,

Yeah.
But she started showing me artand we started going to museums.
Like cinema was the first, thatwas the

right?

that we really did together.
And then we started going tomuseums and we started going to
art expeditions.
and I didn't, and I didn't getit.
and then slowly but surely Istarted feeling like, I think
it's okay for me to be here,even if I don't get it.
But I had that, I walked into agallery and I felt, I don't
belong here.
They're gonna throw, they'regonna find out that I don't know

(37:26):
what I'm, you know, and they'regonna throw me out.
and, because I love sports andshe loved art and, so I took her
to a hockey game and she waslike, anything.
What the hell?
What is they, why are they, whyall these people, And, and then
I slowly but surely I would lookat something and I would slowly
understand that, okay, what thisartist did is the same thing

(37:48):
that I'm trying to do.
He's trying to find way to makesense of the world to him.
this is a co this is his copingmechanism.
that's, I went to therapy,extensive therapy and in 2017,
18, my therapist told me that ifyou had any other job,
Frederick, I would seriouslyrecommend you to be an

(38:08):
antidepressants.
But I don't think you can writethe way you write if you are an
antidepressants.
And I think the fact that youwrite the way you do is your
coping me mechanism.
I think

Interesting.

brain tries to make sense of your reality make
you, moderately functioning.
And, I figured out that,alright, this is someone else's
art is someone else's, attack onthis.
This is someone else's effort tomake sense of the world.
when it's good and when itworks, it's because you didn't

(38:40):
do it for me.
You did it for you.

yeah,

try to make sense of you in this.
And then you know that art isempathy came from, came from
that.
And then it also came from thefact that it's a really long
answer to a short question, butit came from the

it's a beautiful answer.

it came from the fact that all through the
book.
I'm trying to explain Thatthing.
When you don't have words forwhatever it is that you're
trying to explain, and there'sthis person that you love and
you want to explain something,you want them to know that you
are trying really hard to

Hmm.

what they're feeling and because empathy is
insanely hard because empathy isalso, you also very often are
expected put it into words,which is impossible.
And, but this thing where mywife and I could look at the
same piece of art, when shesaid, I really love this, and I
would turn around, I love ittoo.

(39:43):
I love it too.
I don't know why, but I waslooking at it like there was 40
paintings in here and this isthe one I like.
She's this is the one I liketoo.
that moment when you have thatwith something, someone, and
this, that's why when we were,when I was a kid, you would, you
would make mix tapes for eachother.
Like it's the same thing.

(40:04):
I, it's this, or someone gave, Igenuinely, I get really happy
when people tell me that.
I gave, I, I read your book andI gave it to someone, I read
your book and I gave it to mymom then she read it and she
like, because it's this wholething.
I thought of you, I read thisand I thought of you.

(40:26):
I really think you should readit too.
I think this would be somethingfor you

Yeah.

that the way that my dad will call me, he'll
never call me.
He'll, he's never once has, hecalled me and said WhatsApp or
How are you?
Or, I've been thinking about,that's not the way he
communicates.
he'll call and say, at the, Iwas at the hardware store the
other day and I saw, I've been,I remember that your, your wall

(40:52):
or whatever had, whatever in it.

A hole in it.

I was at the hardware store and I, so I
bought it, can I come by and putit up?
I'm like, sure.

Yeah.

just say, I thought about you, I just wanted
to know how you were

Yeah.

can we hang out for a bit?
But it's not the way that wecommunicate and it's never been.
And that's fine.
But so that was the thing, ifyou can't express your emotions
and you don't know the words,then, you show someone a piece
of art and you say that, Ireally love this.
And that's your way of saying, Ireally love you and I wanna know

Yeah,

of you, and I just want to be where you are.

it circles back to you talking about your kids
sending you reels and memes.
That's the same thing.

Yeah.
It's the same.
but yeah, no, it circles back tothat.
it's art is

when they think of you.

me memes and reels and just saying, you send
someone an Instagram reel.
It's really like, I thought ofyou,

Yeah,

saw this and I thought of you.
the same way that, I saw thispiece of art and I thought of
you.

And for better and for worse, all of this stuff
is art.
Just someone, the real is artand the book is art.
And paintings are art andtheater is art.
And whatever.
Someone took time to create andput their hearts into, you were
talking about saying that youlike something and you and your
wife were able to talk aboutthat.
I think you can also both notlike something or one of you

(42:17):
like something and one of younot like something.
And that, and to unpack why andwhat that means and what is,
okay, I don't like it, but whatis this artist?
Trying to say, what are theytrying to discover about the
world and say about the world ina way that I'm not understanding
or don't appreciate or whatever.
And

someone said to me that it's not important in a
relationship that you love thesame things.
It's enough that you hate thesame things.

yeah.
Uhhuh.

hatred is very underrated,

Absolutely.
This book really is so special.
And I have to tell you, what youjust said about sharing your
books with people.
Anxious people is one of thosebooks that I have my own copy
of, but I always make sure tohave at least two copies of it
in my home so that I can gift itto someone.
So if I, when I get it at, I'llget one at the bookstore, I'll
get it at the thrift store, I'llpick it up on the sidewalk, or I

(43:07):
always make sure to have asecond copy of anxious people so
that I can make sure to give itto somebody.

that's genuinely it.
It is generally very nice andit's, it's nice that it's that
book because that book was themost, I wrote that as just as a
writing exercise because I wascoming

Hmm,

therapy and I didn't think I was gonna be able
to write again, because I wastoo messed up and I was trying
to just, I.
get back to being a normal humanbeing.
Sorry my dog is making a lot ofnoise now.

that's okay.

and, and I was coming outta therapy and I was
battling all these, this panickanxiety going on inside me.
and I wrote, actress startedwriting actress people as a
writing exercise.
I'm gonna write this to get backinto writing, and then I'm gonna
write some, an actual book.
and then that turned into abook.
But the way that, that peoplerespond to it, when, when you
say that you give that book tosomeone else, that, that's,

(44:04):
think that's one of the mostmeaningful things that's
happened to me in my career.
that book really resonated withpeople in the way that I want
someone else to read this so wecan talk about it.
It has been, it's been fun totalk about with people who they
view as the main character,because I didn't write it.
Like, there, there's this, thesediscussions with people who are

(44:30):
like, it's not, you're notsupposed to write a book And
like, I know.
But was, it wasn't to be a book.
It just kind of grew and grewand grew and grew and grew.
That's why the, the, thestructure is I know, I know it's
chaotic.
the discussion with people,like, people keep asking me,
who's the main character?
And I'm like, there's, there isno main character.

Right.

people can't take, there're just so, and
people have very strong views onwho is the main character, who
is the, like the engine of thestory.

Yeah.

And uh, so, so it's been one of the, I think
out of all the things I'vewritten, it's the most
interesting for me.
It is the thing that people mostoften say something about that
I'm like, huh, I didn't thinkabout that.
You know, I

I mean, One would argue that anxiety is the main
character of the story.

Uh, so it's this uh.
It,

anxiety is the main character of my story too.

me honestly I think anxiety is the main
character to me way, way thetown is the main character in
Beartown.

Yeah You are a beautiful storyteller.
I will never call you an authoragain.

it.
Less pressure.

I, if this is your last book, I hope it's not,
but if it is it's a very specialone.
It is worthy of being the lastone.
If it is, I validate you.
I validate your feelings.

that's all I wanted it to be.

yeah.
And at the end of the day, Ithink you unpacking the
difference between author andstoryteller.
I think author has this capitalA and storyteller maybe has a
lowercase s and it's okay ifthings are messier when you're a
storyteller.
And it's okay if you break themold and break the form.
I think it resonates with morepeople than you realize.

(46:26):
And this was a beautiful pieceof art and it meant a lot to me.
And so thank you for writing it.
I can't wait for everyone toread it.

I appreciate that a lot.
And that's, and just to, to saysomething about the storytelling
aspect of it, I really hope thatit was something for someone who
wants to create something.
I wanted to be something wherepeople read it and feel like, I
think I can do something.
like I, I think I could dosomething.
I think I could do my take onthis.

(46:54):
I think I have

Yeah.

add to the, I think I could think I could do
something similar to this or myown thing.
But I think, if this moron isactually finishing things, then
maybe I can too.
I want it to be that.
the author thing is that I don'twant anything that I write to
feel like I'm talking to youfrom a stage way over there and
there's a crowd between us.
I don't want it to feel likethat.

(47:17):
I want it to be just.
I want you to feel that it'sjust you and me

yeah.

you to feel like, we were at the airport and
the flight was delayed and wesat at the bar, we had a beer
and we were bored.
and I said, you want to hear astory?
And you were like, yeah,alright.

Or maybe we were on a train ride.

or a train, we were on a train and we were
bored, do you want to hear astory?
Sure.

Yeah.
Yeah.

I've said it a ton of times all through my
career that's what I wanted tofeel like.
I want you to feel like it wasjust me saying, you want to hear
a story?
And you're

Yeah.

Alright.
and then when that kind of.
Landed with me that maybe I canuse that.
So I, this is, that's the frameI'm using for this story.
It's just,

yeah.

on a train and he starts telling her story and
she says, and then what?
And she's, he's

Yeah.

and he kinda, I shouldn't have told you that I
didn't want, but now it's toolate now.
She's what?
You can't stop the story there.
You have to, have to let me knowwhat happened.
And there's

The train is moving.
Yeah.

from there, but it's also this, this thing that,
that, he tells her somethingvery sad and she starts crying
and he says, it's 25 years ago.
She's

Yeah.

me it's happening now whatever happens
is the story is happening now.
And,

Yeah.

was the, that was the thing that I tried to
achieve.
So we'll see how it goes.
It's

Well, It's like you talking about laughing with
your dad.
I wanted to know immediatelywhat it was you were laughing
at.
And for all I knew you didn'tremember.
'cause it was so long ago, butto me, this, you're telling me
the story now, I wanna know,what movie you and your wife saw
for the first time.
Like I, I'm engaged in thisstory for another day.

that we were laughing at is he's, the joke
that we were laughing at this,there's two Swedish comedians,
and one of them is explaining tohim that, there was a nuclear
plant, there was an accident ina nuclear plant called
Harrisburg.
But, but the experts, they havetold us that it was so unlikely
that this would ever happen,that the most likely thing is

(49:25):
that it's never happened at all.
And he has this whole, it's likean entire joke that, that
people, like the experts, thoughthey're standing in front of the
actual accident, they will tellyou, this is so unlikely that in
all likelihood it like hasn'thappened at all,

Oh my God,

in front of it.
Yeah.
But that's not likely, like themore likely scenario actually
that this hasn't happened.
but yeah, but that's, so themore likely scenario is that
we're in parallel universes now.

that's so funny.

that would be the more likely scenario.
Yes.
Because it's so unlikely thatit's so unlikely that it's
impossible.
And if something is impossible.
So he has this.
on and on.
And he was so clever.
And he was so smart, and he wasand he's dead serious.
Like

yeah.

when he gets to the part that the most likely
ist that it hasn't happened allthen my dad and I just burst out
laughing it was this moment ofwow.
that, when that happens, whenyou laugh at the same time,

Yeah.

it's, it's one of the, it's, I mean, I'm not
involved in the adaptations ofthe book a lot.
My wife handles all that because

Mm-hmm.

human beings and But, but one of the great
joys, one of the great blessingsof the adaptations has been to,
the, they made a man called Ottoand to sit in a movie theater.
And we went to Madrid thepremiere and just sit in the
middle of a movie theater, withan all Spanish crowd.

(51:00):
And there's a joke and everybodyjust, everybody in the crowd
just burst out laughing.
And I'm like, and then we werein acro, we were in a theater in
New York, and we were in atheater in Stockholm.
laughs at the exact same spot,like the laugh at the exact same
spot.
That's such a, like right now,right at this moment, this is

(51:24):
where we're, we are the same.
We're together.
We're a team.

Yeah.

all these strangers, like we're all in
this together.
Now.
It's,

Yeah.

and that's the.
when you go to the movies, youget that because when you write
a book, I imagine you have, if Iwrite something that you, for
one reason or another, feelconnected to that.
When you finish the book, whenyou close the book, I have you
for maybe 30 seconds, like thereare 30 sec before you return to

(51:55):
reality.
I have you for 30 seconds whileyou just, you know that
something is, and that's themoment.
That's the, that's a wholething.

Right.

but when you go to the movies, you have that
experience with oth, withstrangers, and I think if you
see something that's trulygreat, like you go to the
movies, you see a movie that'sreally awesome and or beautiful
or moving or funny or something,and the end credits roll and the
lights come on and you like, youstand up.

(52:27):
And you accidentally turn to theperson, to the stranger next to
you, and you just look in theireyes and they're like, awesome,
huh?

Yeah.

have that little, yeah, this was,

Yeah.

say anything.
It's just that Yeah, this wasthis.

I love that you say accidentally turn.
'cause that's like your worstcase scenario,

Yeah.
That is, you know, accident eyecontact.
That's the nightmare.

right?

you turn to someone and you're like, you
turn to some, like my wife saysthat if we make movies, she
said, I want, I, the goal has tobe that everyone sits through
the entire end credits.

Huh.

Because no one wants to stand up and like
return to reality.
Like

Yeah.

out.
Everyone just wants to sit withit for a little while because
when you see something great,that's what happens.
I would just wanna sit with thisfor a little while.

Yeah.

stay here for a little while.
the lights come on and peoplehave tears in their eyes and
they're like, oh shit.
You know, there, there arepeople in here.

Yeah.

are other people in, and you turn to
someone, you have tears in youreyes, like you've been bawling
your eyes out and you turn, andyou have accidental eye contact
with someone else, and they havetears in their eyes too.
that's a moment that you don'tget, you don't get those moments
a lot in, in, in life.
and

Certainly not as a writer in a room by yourself.

but it, if you get that.
In any shape or form that's, Ithink that's to come back to
your, art is empathy.
it's, we get that in any shapeor form.
it's the version of this and iswhen I have book signings once
in a while where people come upto me and, and you can hear two
people like chattering awaytheir two friends and they're

(54:16):
like, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.
And you can hear them like,they're 30 people down the line
and they're blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah.
And when they finally come upand they laugh.
And this has happened a ton oftimes.
then one of them, it's, it'syour turn and she'll turn and
she'll goes, it was so nice.
It was so nice to meet you.
I hope that we can email andit's like you didn't know each

(54:39):
other.
no.
we became friends in line,

Yeah.

we started talking while we were in line.
And by the time that they cameup to the front of the line,
they were friends because theystood in line to the same thing.
They were holding the same book

There's a commonality.
There's something to talk about.

and the other said, yeah, me too.
And

Yeah.

and that, that's the closest thing that
you get to that humanconnection.
And, and I think, I, if I wasgood at human connections in
real life, I wouldn't write, Iwould seek out those human
connections

Yeah.

some other way.
but I would love to, if I hadbeen good at it when I was a,
when I was a kid, I would'veloved to pursue theater.
I, but the reason that I, justto.
give you something.
Where I came from, we had in my,don't know, is it high school
when you're 16 or you're in highschool?

Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.

We have 16 to 18.
That's like you, you changeschools when you're 16 and you,
between 16 and 18, you go Idon't your high school, I
presume.
there was this, we called it acabaret.
at the end of the year, everyonewould go up and, you could do
sketches or you could play asong or you could do whatever
you wanted.
we were, no one was reallyrunning, like no one was running

(56:02):
it.
And we were 16 and we startedthis school and we figured out I
think we could take this.
no one has this, but they'retelling us like every six months
at the, like the end of year.
We get to perform in front ofthe school.
Like we'll have the

Hmm.

for an hour and they have to be here.
we're gonna go to the auditoriumnow, and we're gonna,

They can't close it and put it down.

lock the doors.
And the monkeys are running theSioux now.
I, that's when I really startedto figure out that maybe I could
write, because I started writingjokes for others because I was
on stage and it didn't work andI didn't, I, I couldn't figure
it out and I could never bethat, like I was never good at
it.

(56:44):
But then I wrote a joke and Isaid the joke and no one
laughed.
And then a friend of mine toldthe joke and everyone just died.
And I'm like,

Interesting.

there is something like I,

Yeah.

write this for someone else.
And.
He couldn't write jokes.
was incredibly funny.
So that's, that's how I real,that was the first time that I
ever wrote something really thatI was proud of.
The first time I really wrotesomething that everyone got to
see and everyone, and it wasjust me writing these sketches.

(57:17):
And, so I think had things gonedifferently, had I had an avenue
to it, I think I would've triedto write theater, but I didn't
know, it, there was more, therewere more moving parts to write

There's

to write books.
So

there.
Life is still ahead of you.
There's still time.
It's all about telling a goodstory, which you're familiar
with.

I'm,

Frederick Achman.
I could talk to you all day.
Go be with your family.
The, no, don't be sorry.
Are you kidding?
I'm grateful for your time.
Thank you so much for being onGay's reading.

Thank you for having me.
It was, uh, it was very, verynice

I'm so glad.

really glad.
I'm really, really glad youliked the book.
I'm really glad you, you, thatit connected to you somehow.

Yeah, no, it really did.

Harper! (58:05):
Guest Gay Reader time!

You're matching your book.

Erika J. Simpson (58:11):
Exactly.
I've been trying to buy more andmore lavender things.
This is the hard cover.

gorgeous.
I did have, I had this onearlier, it's like a purple-ish
bluish sweater, but it got warmin here, but I was like, oh, I
should have worn.
Well Now, you know.
now you know.

take a picture.
Lemme take a picture just forthe future.
is what happened.
Thank you so much.

Erica Jay Simpson welcome to Gay's Reading my
guest by reader.
We have,

I about say is there, will there be bisexual
jokes?
Will I feel included in thisspace?
I.

we are very inclusive on gay's reading.
We are,

me?
Am I visible?
Thank God it's for everyone.

yes.

promises that this face

Yes it is for everyone.
Even if you didn't read thebook, there are no spoilers.
The theme song I love my themesong.
It is so ridiculous.
And I could say that'cause Ididn't write it.
So funny.

We have to, I like that it's long.
Like a nineties sitcom.

was going for the Nanny and the Rosie O'Donnell
show.

Yes.
Perfect.
Perfect.

Because the people that I aspire to be are
Fran Drescher and RosieO'Donnell.
So

wise

That's the first thing that comes to mind is
fashion wise.

Just fashion wise,

A hundred percent.
No.
This is thrift.

why I write.
Yes.
I love to thrift.

Yes.
You write because you don't,because you don't have fashion
sense.

yeah, then I can't be seen and then maybe, I
can afford to be seen after thebook is out.

Yes.
you took, you do talk aboutthrifting in the book, but you
also, I've seen on Instagram youhave, you've thrifted three days
in a row.

Three days in a row, I can't help it.

I'm,

books and I like to haggle'em too.

I know.

is a children's book.
Gucci Man's Auto Audiobiography.
This is is a

This is a 50.
This is a 50 cent book.
I'm gonna only give you 50cents, sir.

Erika J. Simpson (01:00:01):
fine.
They're like, it.
But I love it.

Jason Blitman (01:00:04):
Oh my God.
I know.
Me too.
In fact, I was literallythinking, you are my third of
three interviews today.
And so I was like, after this, Ithink I should go to the thrift
store.
Like I was already thinkingthat.
I know.
It's so cheap.
It's so cheap.
It's

of finding something, it's just

I know.

childhood books, so I love collecting
goosebumps from there.
Like vintage nineties ones.
I like finding romance novelsfrom book Talk for$2 instead of
27.
Just in case.
'cause sometimes you never knowa book talk,

You never know.
You never know what you're gonnabe in the mood for.
Erica, you're on my guest.
Bye reader.
Today, what are you reading?

Oh,

Are you reading your goosebumps?
Are you reading?
Tell me.
I wanna know everything.

Okay, so I've got, I got a few things'cause I
dabble, I did from

Uhhuh

so I am reading Want by Jillian
Anderson.
I'm also listening to it onaudiobook so I can hear her read

her dult tones.
Yes.

British.
If you wonder, I don't know ifyou're up on your Jillian
Anderson lore.
Sometimes she's British,sometimes she's American.
So do you know who that is,right?
Yes.
Scully

You mean a lamb of the theater school at DePaul
University?

Oh.
I forgot you were a theater kidtoo.
Yes.
I only went to DePaul forJillian Anderson.
Okay.
You're, you feel me?
So yeah, sometimes you getScully, sometimes you get like
the fall or what's that Britishshow?
She's on the queen.

The Queen I, she was on sex education.

Yes.
And

So good.
Yes.

So I like hearing her voice read some of
the things, but it's acollection of women sharing
their fantasies and sexualdesires.
And it makes you feel, held it,it makes you feel held because
you know how sex is.
It feels like it's something.
The desire for it.
The whatever you're into, itfeels like something that's only
happening in your head to you.

(01:01:57):
Know what I mean?
It's ooh, I'm a naughty person.
You know what I mean?
So It's nice to hear other womentalk about wanting to be desired
or, I'm also reading Parable ofthe Talents,

Tell me what is this?

Butler.
So.
Butler's book, par Below theSower yes.
is the one that takes place in2024.
And it's essentially like rightLiterally it has a president who
says, make America great again.
And the world has in shamblesfrom political stuff, climate
change fires in California.
Like it's so accurate, it'sscary.

The suits there, we didn't know we had.

Yeah.
It's oh so she popped her bigone with this I love Octavia
Bubble.
That's mother.
She's a cancer like me.

Oh my God.
Love.

Oh.
What's your sign, Aries?
That's

I'm an Aries.
Yeah, I did look at you payingattention.

I'm watching.
My eyes are on the ground.
Okay.
And I gotta know who I'm talkingto.
I gotta know who's in But yeah,so I'm reading Parable of the
Talent, but it's tough to getthrough because it's so accurate
and then it makes your, it kindamakes you like a little scary,
they essentially have to rebuildeverything.
It's like they're in survivalmode, they're farming.
You have to protect yourcommunity.

What's your elevator pitch for this?
Is your mother

This is your mother, is a memoir that has two
timelines that crossed the lastsix months of my mother's life,
paired with my life from the ageof nine to 25 when she passed,
and the collision of identity.
it comes to living inside yourmother's story and then having
to live without, how about that?

Girl.
I'll cut the first one, but I'llsay for the children, this was
take two off the cuff.
Gorgeous and brilliant.

A theater school we gotta use in degrees
for something.

Listen, okay.
This, I had the most uniquereading experience that I have
ever had reading a book,

unique.
I like that word.
Why?

Because like our paths crossed, but we didn't
know each other.

Oh, interesting.
So it's like seeing the otherside of the timeline or
something,

Yes.

Where did we cross?

I was working in the admissions office at the
theater school when you were afirst year student.
I sat in that office and watchedyou and your classmates walking
by.

I can absolutely picture you in that
office.

I knew of you because of just like having an
awareness of who the studentswere in the year below me.
But we never had interactions.
We never really had reasons toengage.
I'm sure we were at the sameparties, like it's crazy.
I'm sure I was, I know so manyof the people that you're
referring to in the book, likeit's

I'm like, whose name did I say,

no.
What's actually funny is thenames you don't say.

Oh, Jesus.
That's exactly what I wassaying.
I was like I didn't say

No, but that's what I'm saying.
You the names that you do say, Iwas like, oh yeah, okay.
Okay.
Like I know who Logan is.
I know who Jeremy is.
I know Brittany.
I know.

really know my dear Logan, that is my wife.
Even though she stuck me withthose three cats.

funny.
And like again, we don't knoweach other necessarily very
well, but like

But she like, oh, I know these

I knew who they were.
I know those characters.

justice

but that's, again, Erica, that's what's so
weird.
It's like I was living my lifein the building at the same
time.
If in the movie version of thebook I am, I'm like in the
background,

Right?
You're like, literally, I can, Ican be here.

right?
And that's what's so bizarre tome.
But like our paths didn't crossand so there's this human
walking amongst me and now Ihave her whole story.

were you also acting?
What did, what Were

No.
I was a theater art student.

A theater art

Yeah,

like, I hope you didn't have to feel the
pressure.

No.
So my God kid was Mitchell Velo.

oh, Mitchell,

Yeah,

that's Jeremy's other

I know.
But so that's, it's so weird tome and because Mitch, I know,
but because Mitchell was my Godkid and I like knew Jeremy.
Tangentially through him.
I would see Jeremy on the quadand I'd be like this kooky guy
with his like long sweaters.

tall.
So tall, you can't miss him.

Yes.
And now like obviously for himto become who he is, like it's a
no-brainer that's what happened.
But no.
So it was.

yeah, after we got cut, we definitely used to
like do fake interviews witheach other in the dorm rooms
because we were like, it's likea, it lights a fire under

Yeah,

not famous.
I won't be famous.
I'll show you.
It's like when they get cut onRuPaul and they're backstage.
You haven't seen the last of me.
You're gonna see my nameeverywhere,

know I,

working out.
He got a play on Broadway, I,and several other million
things,

yeah.

I got a memo mark coming out,

Yes.
No, it's incredible.
It's incredible.
It made me think more about thepeople in our lives that we
don't know their full selves.

Oh, that's good.
Yeah, because that's my wholeexistence is.
People not knowing what's goingon with me or my past.
Like when I came to college,when I came to theater school
from Georgia, or really Decatur,Georgia, which is smaller to
this like predominantly whiteschool and this Catholic school,
like you're wearing a mask.
Like I don't want you to knowthat I'm country and that I

(01:07:18):
don't have any money and thatI'm.
I'm so desperate to make itbecause if I don't make it, my
whole family could fail.
I'm not gonna tell people that.
So they just see like a girlthat looks a little shy in the
corner and that's it.
You know what I

Yeah.

Some people are so willing to be the main
star.
It literally felt like a realityshow, theater school.
'cause I know it's not that timein 2008, but it's like they're
trying to get the gif off.
You know what I mean?
The meme of remember me,

Yeah.

catchphrases?
Remember?
And it's

Yes.

I was in survival mode.
So I felt like I would drift inthe background, just trying to
observe everything and everyonesee who, who has a story, who
doesn't?
Who would understand me?
Who can I confide in?

Yeah.

And even Jeremy reading the book was
like, I didn't know you weregoing through half of this
stuff.
And I'm like, girl, I couldn'tsay

for your own protection.
Yeah.

is a competitive environment, so I
can't give you guys myweaknesses or else I won't.
I got cut anyway, so cut anyway.

It's so interesting because it I have so
many feelings about all sorts ofthings.
One of them being, when you're18 years old, how are you
expected to know who you are andhow can you be your authentic
self when you don't even knowwhat that means?

So you're in a new environment to

And you're trying to become,

yeah, who's becoming quickest.

right?
Yeah.

the rules.
And the longer I was there, Ifelt like I was getting more
jumbled.
'cause they're like, you need tolearn Stanis Slosky, and you
need to learn this person andthis technique.
And I'm like, oh I just did liketalent shows and stuff in high
school, like I, this is so

Yeah.
Yeah.

an 18-year-old.
And then to be cut to havesomeone tell you at that age,
like 18 years old, oh, you'renot an actress, but have a nice
day.
That's like identity shattering,I think they've since cut the

they have got the cut.

Yeah.

The world of theater is so commercial right
now, and it's all about what'sgonna make money, what's gonna
sell, and a book, even if itdoesn't.
Sell the book is in the world.
It can be picked up at thethrift store.
It's on the shelf in thebookstore.
It came out of you there andthere is an opportunity for

(01:09:30):
someone to pick it up.

Yes.

could write a play, it can get produced, and
then it can never see the lightof day ever again.

Lost media terrifies

Yeah.

this is why I collect DVDs,

Ha.
Yes.

Lost media terrifies me.
The things that we cannot eversee again, that someone put
their heart and soul intocreating,

I know my husband every once in a while was like,
will you get rid of some of yourCDs?
And I was like, no, those arenot streamable.

Okay

are not all streamable.

The moment I don't pay my Apple music and
like I go for a walk and it'soh, you don't own a stitch of
music.
I'm like, oh, it is soterrifying.

Right.

I thought I had so many CDs from high school
and I was like, look, I have awhole thing for, I open up the
folder is nothing but mixed CDs.
Nothing but mixed

But we love a mix id.

We used to be a culture like, like we

Yes.

this love package of music.

Yes.
What would be on your mix tape?
What's like the first cup?
What's

One thing is the first thing that came to

Okay?

It's this one thing that's me.
Maybe the

Yes.
Yes.

Love of my life, Erika Badu.
Oh

Oh my God.
I know.
I miss a mixtape.

yeah.
It's just ugh.
And there's so much personalityin it.

Yeah.

sucks because I'm like, oh I thought I had my
little bow wow.
CDs in my Sierra CDs, but mixedtapes.
And you know what that remindsme of the last thing that I just
finished reading.

Yeah.

I read a book.
I wrote a book called The AI Wholoved me by Issa Cole, wonderful
author.
You have to read her RoyalReluctant Royal Series.
Me and my Sister, that's ourjam.
But this book, it was originallyan audible for Mindy Kay Lang
and Regina Hall to read orsomething.

Okay.

But this read like a horror story to me.
I was like, okay, y'all keeptalking about this chat.
GPT Chat.
Oh chat.
Help me with this.
This is where we're going, whereyou fall in love with a boy and
he's a robot.
And like it, I was trying to getinto it, but I was like, this is
scary.
This is like actuallyhorrifying.

Yeah.

I don't, I wanna talk to a human.
I want to be with a human.
I want, he doesn't feel desire,it's just code.
Ugh.
It was,

There are some people in my life who have full
conversations with their AIthing component, and they talk
about them as they're realpeople, and I'm just like, I,
that is not my life right now.
Yeah, it's fascinating.

the journey I was trying to play with the
Snapchat ai.
And

Oh,

is your like

Uhhuh.

And I was like, all right, lemme talk to
it.
The thing that turned me offthat it could not flirt.
I know I just said what I saidabout the AI thing, but I'm
like, there's just something sohuman and just like banta, okay,
like going back and forth.
If I tried to flirt with him,he'd be like, Google States that
two humans that you know.
So I'm like,

You're like, no, give me the banter.

friend.
Have a phone call.

Yeah.

A human being, that's all.

Yeah.
Talking about why I love readingnow.
I learned this, the moment Istarted talking about books
around friends.
Those people started talkingabout what they're reading and I
was like, wait a minute.
We've been friends for 10 yearsand we've never once talked
about a book because I'm a latein life reader.
And those people, we, there wasno overlap to talk about books.

(01:12:52):
And so all of a sudden I'veopened up new doors in terms of
engagement.

idea.

Yeah.
So I don't know.
It's,

Have you ever read a book that's so good and
like you have to mail it tosomeone?
Do you know what I mean?
I need someone else to read

So it's funny that you say that because you
are on the episode withFrederick Backman, the author,
and he wrote a book calledAnxious People, and I told him I
was like, Frederick AnxiousPeople is one of those books
that I, whenever I'm at a thriftstore, whenever I'm somewhere
else, I always buy a copy of itif I see it.

it at the thrift store and I was like,

Did you actually Oh that I'm like, I always buy
it so that I can give it tosomeone because I like have my
copy, but I always have a bonuscopy and so I literally just
told him that.

I think my book for that is American
Marriage by Tiri Jones.

Oh

Have you heard of it?
It's

yeah.
Oh yeah.
I know what the cover lookslike.

Yeah, it's beautiful, but it's about like a
woman who like that she's anewlywed and the day that they
are like on a honeymoon orsomething, he gets accused of
raping a white woman And then hegets thrown in jail for it and
he has to serve the sentence.
And they were newlyweds.
And so the whole book is themwriting back and forth to each

(01:14:03):
other and she becomes like afamous writer.
A famous artist from sellingdolls of him in prison, so it
gets really morally confusing.

Interesting.

You just can't stop.
I sent it to my friend who wasin prison.
It all around the jail.
He Read this.
I got it in the system, honey.
I gave it to my best friendwho's not a reader,

Yeah.

gobbled it up.
Like it just feels so good.
Just pass, read these wordsquickly.

Yeah.
Yeah.
It's funny there some books Isay to people, you have to read
it quickly because if you Yeah.
You need to just get through itso that you can appreciate it
for its full realness of it.

People read my memoir like that, that it's a
quick,

Oh yeah.
Super quick, super digestible,emotional moving.
Erica, as my guest by reader, Ihave a question I've been asking
everybody, and I think I knowwhat your answer is going to be,
but in a,

to try to be unique or something.

in moment of amplifying the people in our
lives, people who we love,people who are important, if you
were to die tomorrow.
You had to call someone to clearthe search history on your
computer.
Who are you calling?

Oh, me.
Oh my.
I'm like, what is the searchreally oh

I love that.
That's what your brain is goingto first, it's what is my
search?

hide?

And that will help you decide who it is that
you ask.

Well, My two best friends Ellen, who is also
a cancer, but she's far away,

Okay.

And of course Jeremy,

my guess.
I figured you would say Jeremy.
Yeah.

the nasty.
We have emails from the earlytwo thousands that were always
like, I'm gonna cancel you withthis.
Just you wait.
you wait.
Just you

Oh my God.
Just

knows where to look.
We've got some, we've got somethings where I'm like, are you
gonna get me back for that?

God, that's so funny.
Oh

But yeah, he can play the search

yes.

each other's darkest and deepest.

Love.
This has been so great hearingpeople amplify these people who
have their backs, who ha, whoknow where the bodies are
buried.
I love it.

When you see each other in the darkest'cause
we also had to survive together,me and Jeremy.
There

Yeah.

where we had no money and we ate oatmeal for
every meal.
So

Yes.
Get your fiber.
Yes.

Yes.

Yes.
That oatmeal's going to, right?
You were regular, that oatmeal.

It was so hot in Chicago.
God.

I know.

yeah, you gotta have a good support

Yes.
j Simpson, this is your motherout today.
coming out today.
Everyone go get it.

five, six.
This is your

Yes.

God.
Please read about my Geminimother and the adventures that
we get into together.
Fighting

So special.
Congratulations.
It has, it's, I like didn't evenrealize how special it is to
watch this journey.
Frederick Backman, ErikaSimpson.
Thank you both so much for beinghere.
Just, after recording withErica, went to the thrift store.
I.
Where I found a copy of anAmerican marriage, which was the

(01:17:17):
book that Erica was talking tome about.
And she also went to the thriftstore and she found a copy of
Anxious People, which is what Iwas talking to her about.
So that was really fun.
Everyone go check out my Friendsby Frederick Beckman.
Make sure to check out this isyour mother have a great rest of
your day.
Bye.

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