Jemimah Wei (The Original Daughter) feat. Prabal Gurung, Guest Gay Reader

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Gaze reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what andwhy.
Anyone can listen Comes we arespoiler free.
Reading from stars to book clubpicks we're the curious minds
can get their picks.
Say you're not gay.

(00:24):
Well that's okay there somethingeveryone.
Hello, and welcome to Gay'sReading.
I'm your host Jason Blitman, andon today's episode, I have
Jemimah Wei talking to me abouther book, the original daughter
and my guest, gay reader.

(00:45):
PRL Guru, who is known worldwidefor being an incredible fashion
designer.
He talks to me about what he'sreading and a little bit about
his memoir, walk Like A Girl.
Prl and I talked for so longthat I couldn't even fit.
A fraction of our conversationin this episode, and so much of
our conversation could be foundover on the gays reading

(01:08):
Substack, so make sure to checkthat out.
The link is in the show notesand on the link tree on
Instagram, both Jemimah andproblems.
Bios are in the show notes theoriginal daughter.
Is the current Good MorningAmerica Book Club Pick, and also
it is an Aardvark book Clubpick.

(01:29):
And of course, I am partneringwith Aardvark Book Club to offer
an introductory discount whereyou can get your first book for
$4 and free shipping.
So go on over to aardvark bookclub.com.
Use the code gays reading atcheckout, and you can get your
own copy of the originaldaughter for only$4.
Such a good deal.
We are on Instagram at Gay'sreading.

(01:49):
You could watch thisconversation over on YouTube.
You could watch the conversationthat I've just had with Rosie
O'Donnell over on YouTube.
Y'all, I'm still compellingabout the fact that I had Rosie
O'Donnell on gay's reading, andnot everyone realized that the
episode was on YouTube.
So you can watch her and I overthere.
It was just so much fun and I'mstill so thrilled both Rosie

(02:13):
O'Donnell and Frederick Bachmanin the same week on gay's
reading.
So incredibly special.
if you haven't yet listened makesure to check those episodes
out.
And as always, if you like whatyou're hearing, please share us
with your friends.
And if you are so inclined,leave a five star review
wherever you get your podcast.
As I say all the time, this is alittle indie podcast and any any

(02:35):
feedback that we can get fromlisteners and things like stars
and subscriptions, et ceterareally helps the algorithm and
helps other people find GA'sreading as well.
I.
This past week I was inconversation with with the actor
turned author, Lily Taylor.
About her book Turning to Birds.
And that conversation wasrecorded and will be over on our

(02:57):
substack as well, so make sureto check that out.
And those are all the things.
Now, please enjoy this episodeof gays Reading, featuring
Jemimah Wei and Prabal Gurung

Jason Blitman (03:10):
my interview this morning, we spent so much time
talking about treadmill, desks.

Jemimah Wei (03:16):
Wait, I feel like those are becoming really
popular.
I was at my friend's house, GinaChung.
She, her novel Sea Change cameout a couple years ago and Green
Frog Historic Collection cameout that, yeah.
And she has one of those.
And then I was talking toFrancis Cha, not a novelist who
also got one of those walkingdesks and I was like, I have to
get on this.
I feel like.

So you have to start the trend, or you have to
be, you have to get on the waveat the beginning of it.

Yeah, except I don't wanna exercise, so then
that's like a real problem,

Apparently it moves so slowly that it's okay.

oh, do you have one?

No, but after this conversation this morning,
I want one,

Oh, really?
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.

but apparently, so this is what I learned.
She has to put her fitbit in hersock because if you're typing,
the Fitbit doesn't track thesteps.
And so it's not worth doing ifyou're not getting the tracks,
so that if you end up doing it,that's important to know.

I mean it is worth doing it'cause you still get the
exercise,

I know.

I don't know.
I feel like I I only like tosweat on schedule, so I don't
wanna be thinking and sweating.
I don't know.
I don't

Say more.
What do you mean?

I, okay, look, I come from Singapore, right?
We are off the equator.
I sweat all the time.
Growing up, I didn't leave mycountry to sweat some more.
So in America, when the weathergets hot, I'm just like, what is
this?
I didn't come here for this.

This is very fair,

I don't wanna sweat.
If I wanna sweat, it has to befor like, from eight to 9:00 PM
in the gym where I signed up tosweat.

right?

like atmospheric sweating.
I don't

Correct.
Yes.
You are an intentional sweater,

I am.

right?

I like the idea of, active and exercising

yeah.

So I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.

Do you sweat when you get nervous?
Do you sweat?
Are there like other times thatyou sweat?
No.
It's just like only when you'rewarm.

Yeah.
No, but the problem is I'm oneof those people whose body
temperature runs a bit hot,

Yeah, me too.

like really bad for someone who grew up on the
equator

Yeah.

I'm allergic to my own sweat, which is something a
dermatologist told me when I waslike in my twenties.
So so

How is that possible?

Yeah, so like I have a low level allergy on
sweat, which means that if Isweat too much, I get like crazy
heat rash.
And when I was growing up Ithought that

Oh,

this derm was like, no, this is like a reaction to
your sweat.
So if you sweat you have to wipeit off immediately so it doesn't
sit on your skin'cause youactually are a little bit
allergic to your own sweat.
And I was like, this is terriblefor me personally, really bad
news because I live in theequator on a, in a tropical
country, it's

Sorry, family.
I have to move, right?
I grew up in Florida and so.
I have a similar feeling.
Whenever I'm in humidity, I'mlike no, no, no, no, no.
I left Florida.
I should not be in humidityright now.

Yeah.
Is

Yeah.

ask that we have our personal atmosphere?
Follow us around.
It's like temperature controland.

Jemima, how do we make this happen?

Listen, I'm sure some r and d person in Singapore
is on it,

Oh, interesting.
I know.
I have so many.
I would like to submit myfeedback.

okay?

Send me their info.
I will send my opinions.

We send a ticket and we hear back

Right.

Five walking days.

Perfect.
You understand?
Thank you.
Thank you.
See, you never know what you'regonna talk about at the
beginning of a podcast.

you started a podcast.
People log on and they're like,oh, we think we're gonna listen
to people talking about a booktoday.
And then they're like, what's asweaty conversation?

are boring.
No, I'm kidding.
no.
I'm obsessed that you have thislike YouTuber history, is that,
we'll get into that and how itrelates to the book in a minute,
but Can you share how that evencame to be for you?

sure.
So basically I grew up, I wasborn and raised in Singapore and
back in the day we were likeflirting with the internet.
And it wasn't this like allencompassing thing that it is
today.
So much

Yeah.

lives.
Back then it was like, if my momis on the phone with a friend, I
can't use the internet.
It's PPE pop, on the line.
So it really didn't feel likesuch a, who

Yeah.
Yeah.

When I was about, I think I was 20, maybe 19 or 20,
I was scouted and I did areality show.
Back then, YouTube wasn't eventhat big.
So it wasn't even on YouTube, itwas on this like online TV
network.
His own TV channel.
And so I did that for severalyears and I just continued'cause
I had a lot of fun.
It was really good, likeexperience.

(07:45):
It was just so unusual as apart-time job.
I was in college, right?
And

Yeah.

around me was like doing part-time jobs, like
working at tough shop or givingtuition and or giving piano
lessons.
And this one was like.
Oh, we'll pay you to show uponce a week and just talk about
fashion.
I was like, I'll do that.
That seems way more fun.
And I had a great experience,like I was guided by a woman.
like, I worked with A lot ofvery strong women.
I was ticked under the wingalmost immediately of some

(08:12):
mentors in the industry who werein like traditional TV media.
And so I felt like even thoughit was a definitely challenging
and a learning curve, I was verylike shepherded and mentored.
And I think it made such hugedifference for me.
And it was only, like sometimeinto doing that where my
producer was like, you have toget on.

(08:32):
Social media, moreintentionally, because everybody
is looking for, connection,different ways to connect.
So they watch you on screen,they wanna find other ways to
connect with

Yeah,

a point, I think, I didn't even use an iPhone, so I,
do you know, do you rememberwhen Instagram didn't have an
Android app?
That was, that's how old I am,

I don't, because I always had an iPhone.
I mean, I've never had anAndroid, so it doesn't matter.
I remember when Instagramstarted, but I

it was like purely, A Blackberry girlie, so I had a
Blackberry and

Oh,

you need to get Instagram.
And I was like, can't do itbabes.
Like I don't got an iPhone.
And so I got an iPad like fromwork.
So I was working also atadvertising agency at a time.
I was a copywriter.
And they were like here's aniPad to help if you work.
And I was like, cool.
I downloaded Instagram, imagineme like some.
Old person having this massiveiPad that I would then be like,

(09:23):
oh, I need to upload somethingto Instagram.
And then I would email myselffrom

Right.

download the photo of my iPad and be like, this is
what I have for lunch.

This is what I had for lunch.
It was delicious.
Go to this restaurant,

Yeah, or Myself at the dentist, like With my iPad,
which had no internetconnection, so I had to get
wifi.
It was like crazy times.

Oh my God.
Like, excuse me, dentist, yourmouth is full.
What's your wifi password?

literally.
And then, so it was like, it wasso insane.
But it felt fun, it felt like agood time.
I don't know if.

Okay.

It still feels like a good time.
The internet feels crazy rightnow,

Yeah, it does.
It's like a, yeah.
Yeah.

back then though, it was really fun.

We need like caution tape around the internet
right now.

I think so.
It, I just, I do feel like Iwatched the way,'cause I have
two younger sisters I watchedthe way they grew up differently
with diff entering the internetat different points.
Do think it makes a bigdifference,

Yeah.

I.
back to it.
So I was doing that and then Istarted doing other, one thing
leads to another, I did likethat show for a while.
I did another show.
I did that, those were my longform shows.
I did documentaries.
I did like travel shows withtraditional networks.
So I did all stuff like that.
And a big part of that in themedia is then you get brand
endorsements.
So I also did content creation,I have friends who are full-time

(10:41):
content creators, and they workso hard.
They have like intense moodboards.
They pitch like crazy.
They have Brand X.
And I was just vibing out.
I was like, I got a show.
I'm on a show.
And then I was like, listen, Idon't have a I'm not a
photographer, I'm not like I'minterested in it, but I'm not
like a

Yeah,

to make like a beautiful brand video.
So if you want something shot onmy like Android, like a selfie
Hey guys, like I can totally dothat.

right.
Send me a hotspot.

Totally.
Totally.
And then, later my sister gaveme an iPhone.
She was like, girl.
So that was like, that wasreally nice.
After that, it was just onething leading to another.
I do think that yeah, then afterthat, like YouTube became really
big, so then a

Yeah,

So a lot of my later, like media, like shows
ended up being hosted onYouTube.
But I think that I, again, Ithink I was really lucky I had
to learn all those like.
Site skills separately because Iwas first and foremost hired as
a presenter, my

sure.
Right, right.

Have to do any of the heavy lifting.
I didn't do editing.
I didn't do like script writingfor the show.
I didn't direct or anything, soI just

Basic, what I'm hearing you say is that like
what you're doing right now,you're happy to be here right
now'cause you have nothing elseto do, but just be yourself And
chat.

Exactly.
And I have so much respect andadmiration and gratitude for the
people who edit it later and godo the sound mixing and
everything.
I later did a bit of producingand a

Totally.

a bit of script writing.
So I did develop those skillsseparately,

But you're, but when you came on board, you were
on board to be a personality.
Yeah.

it was fun.

Yeah.
That's so awesome.

I did a hot pivot when I moved to the States to
pursue writing

Yeah.

And that was, I, it is crazy you think about it.
I was in 2019, so it's been likesix years.

Wow.
And so I have the book here, theoriginal daughter.
I'm so excited.
The concept of becoming aYouTuber Is I don't wanna say a
major plot point.
I guess it's a major plot point.
It is a big moment in the book.
But before we get ahead ofourselves, do you have an
elevator pitch for the book oryou're like one liner that you

(12:53):
say your book is about?

Sure.
Okay, so my name is Jemima Weyand I'm the author of The
Original Daughter, which iscoming out with double day
books.
It's about two sisters growingup in Singapore, one adopted,
and they're navigating the turnof the millennium, the rapid
progression, the fact thatSingapore is out ultra
competitive, super stressful,and rapidly modernizing, and
also trying to navigate theirrelationship to independence and

(13:17):
intimacy on their journeytowards fame and fortune.

Obsessed, that's you are succinct.
You've already said you have twoyounger sisters.
What was that process likewriting this book?
That's really, at its core it isa, it's a sister book.
It's a book about sisters.
I have two younger sisters aswell.
And so I read it thinking aboutoh, what if this was, what if
these were my sisters?

So it's interesting because obviously it is about
sisters, but I wasn't thinkingso much about sisters as my
entry point to the book

Yeah.

was about the idea of family being given away and
taken in.
Because those silences, that isextremely common in the
generation where I grew up andmy parents grew up and even
before that in Singapore.
And our region is super, supercommon for

Hmm.

Given away or adopted.

Wow.

For all kinds of reasons.
Like families are too big, theycan't support all their kids.
And and people don't like totalk about it obviously.
Established, I am a big to yap.
And as a yapper, when you comeup against big silences in life,
you're like, what is thesilence?
And so I became really aware ofthose silences around.
Those choices at a really youngage.

(14:27):
And I think as a kid, maybe thiswas my first pictured exercise,
I would just like invent intothose silences.
So I think that was like one wayof thinking about the book of
entering the book.
What would it be like to havethat relationship where somebody
entered into your family, Oryour family reconfigured itself,
in a way, like in a way that'snot like super conventional and
that people don't talk aboutvery much.

(14:48):
What would it mean to be asecret?
What would it mean to be like,the only child and then have to
accommodate and love anothersister that's brought into your
life

Mm-hmm.

Age.
Like it's seven or eight, that'sthe age where each of them are
when this happens.
And what do the silencers bornof care open up?
And fracture for us, so Thequestions I was really thinking
about.
And that is not the relationshipI had with my sisters.
Like I watched them come outwith my mom.
Okay.
Like I was at a hospital beinglike, mom, hurry up.
And

All right.
That's just aggressive.

oh, I know.

That's a diff, that's a different kind of drama

it's a different Yeah,

watching them come out.

Not literally watching house in the waiting
room.
But so This is not therelationship I have with my

sure.

and so I didn't think about that so much.
But then obviously, everybody'sthis is a book about sisters,
and it is, it's totally a bookabout sisters, but to me it's
also a book about chosen familyand how do we choose, keep
choosing them or not, and

Yeah.
What's so interesting is thatyou said there that it's
non-traditional and it's sofascinating because it's
disguised as traditional.
So it's EAs quote unquote, easyto pretend to lean into what a
reality is for, to the outsideworld, right?
So it can, it's a secret toeveryone else, but internally

(16:06):
it's, there's nothing normalabout it.

Yeah.
And the thing is I do believethat Chosen family is.
As valuable and as legitimate asbiological family.
And I think that in thisspecific family that I've
written, there are attempts toto pretend, not to pretend, but
to keep insisting and reassuringthe adopted daughter that it's
true does create an isolatingexperience I think the silences

(16:31):
around it.
To be like, these are both mydaughters.
This is my sister.
That, that is both reassuringand also not a hundred percent
exactly what the reality is.
And so then

right.

this child is left to figure out on her own what
this identity means to her Whatthis relationship means to her.
And she knows that it's notmalicious, right?
She knows that her family lovesher.
It's just the fact that younever ever talk about

The reality.

of it, I

Yeah.

can, and I've seen that happen so many times in my
interpersonal relationships, inmy extended family.
I do think we should call, it,it's, I think there is no such
thing as overcommunication andso it's it does create fractures
down the road if you havesilences around things that
Normalize or pretend not topretend that they don't exist.

Yeah.
It's so interesting because Iam.
My therapist has been out oftown for a few weeks, and so I'm
processing things a lot formyself right now.
I'm using my coping skills but Ihaven't talked to my dad in five
years And there's some othertensions within my family and me

(17:38):
and so much of it I'm realizingright now if I were to dig to
the root of why it is because ofsilences.
It is because of things thatwe're not talking about, that
we're not addressing or thatwe're ignoring.
And I'm over here as a yapperbeing like excuse me.

(17:59):
What the hell?
Why aren't we talking about thisthing?
And because no one's willing tomeet me there.
That's where the estrangement iscoming from.
Yeah, it's very interesting.

definitely see that.
I hear you on that, and I thinkthat the thing is if you're not
habituated to communicating andtalking, it will always be
difficult at a start.
You're always gonna havefriction and bump up against
each other.
But I think that's part of the.
Growing pains or pushing pastthat

Yes.

of your relationship.
Are so like accustomed to beingafraid of pain and so we don't
wanna take that, we don't wannaenter that zone of discomfort
Yeah.

It's interesting just talking about being break,
moving beyond the pain.
There's, at the beginning of thebook you talk about liberation.
What does, unrelated to thebook, what does that mean to
you?
What does feeling liberated meanto you?

So my answer to that keeps changing.
I will say

Oh.

I was really obsessive the idea of liberation
and freedom while writing thebook.

Interesting.

and processing a lot of what that means to

Yeah.

I think that it's tossed around a lot as a
catchall phrase, right?
Can't talk about liberationfreedom without talking about
the very real costs that comewith it.
So for me, I feel like I havedeveloped like this great
ambition for love in my, liketwenties and thirties and what
that looks like to differentpeople is different.
And so for me, I orient my life.

(19:20):
those relationships, around thatkind of guiding principle.
And it looks quite differentfrom I thought my life would
look and so for me, I thinkright now being able to like
fully interrogate my lifecircumstances and why I make the
choices I make and take thosesteps intentionally is a kind of
freedom for me.
It's a way of reclaiming timebecause I think that when you
live in a hyper capitalist.

(19:41):
Hyper cosmopolitan society, itmoves too fast.
Can get swept up in the waycircumstances carry us forward.
We're just trying to survive andnot really interrogating our
lives.
And then we're gonna wake up oneday and be like, oh, there goes
the last five, 10 years.
And I, the one thing you can'tgo is back.
The That's what it does.
And It's really important for meto be like, this is why I'm

(20:02):
doing this right now.
These are the choices I'm makingand.
If things go well, great.
If things don't go well, it'salso a choice I make.
I think to be able to takeagency and responsibility and
accountability for my life is akind of freedom because Time and
owning my life, whereas I don'twanna be carried along by the
currents of society.
Who knows where that's gonna goyeah.

If it's, if the last few months have been any
indication, we don't wanna hopon that train.
I, that's a really specialanswer.
I like that so much.
And hearing you say that.
The book is so much about timeand is so much about not going
back and about what's to come.
Totally pivoting.

(20:41):
What is your relationship withMcDonald's?

Gosh, dunno, I tell you, I really love a chicken
nugget.
I don't, I.
I don't have a sweet tooth atall,

Okay,

I'm a savory kind of person.

yeah.

a real shock to me in America, everybody eats
cookies.
And I was like, at first I waslike, why are people eating so
many cookies?
And I realized that's because ifyou want a snack, that's the
like snacks shaped thing, acookie.
But in.
Asia, you could be like, I wanta snack, and then eat a nugget.
There are, it's not justMcDonald's, there are all these
other snack stands or or chunky,which is a really popular like

(21:16):
check chain in Singapore whereyou could get like fish balls on
a stick or a fish nugget or a

Oh,

puff.
So like a snack shaped thingthat's

Oh,

just wanna eat a piece of meat.
I don't wanna eat a cookie

what about a potato chip?

That's okay.
you eat too many potato chips toget really thirsty

It's not hard.
Hard to get enough for you.

Yeah, I wanna like

Right, right.

You.
And, okay

You've said that note two times in the same way.
And I appreciate the heft behindthat phrase.
I want to eat a piece of meat,like That's right.
I love it.

And I say that as somebody who's Pescaterian for
two, four years and I was like,I have to go back to this.

Wait, are hold, wait a minute.
Hold on.
I need to know more.
You're a pescatarian.
Do you, are you No longer apescatarian.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
I was gonna say, if you're apescatarian, but you only make
an exception for chicken nuggetsfrom McDonald's, that would, I
would've been obsessed withthat.
Okay.
So once a amount of time you'rea pescatarian, but now enough,
right?

to be able pescatarian.
'cause fish is really expensive.

Yes.
Oh my God.

Reason to go back.

We've all been there.
I feel you.
so, okay, so that's how yourrelationship with McDonald's
began.

No.
It's not just that.
It's also, okay, so growing uplike I, my family, like here
from pretty spare circumstances,so I never ever go any
McDonald's.
It was a luxury.
A year on my birthday, my dadwould take me to McDonald's.
And so every year I would justlook forward to eating at
McDonald's for my birthday.
And we were just like.

(22:43):
It would be like our catch uptime.
We chit chat about whatever wewanted to talk about.
And McDonald's and Singapore hadtwo big menu items.
You could eat the hotcakes oryou could eat the, like the
burger.
So every other thing to myself,oh, year I'll be thinking,
should I get hotcakes this yearor the burger This year I had a
hot, I had a hotcakes last year,so maybe this year I the burger.
And when I, started gettingpocket money and being able to.

(23:05):
Go to McDonald's and buy a fishburger on my own It was this
whole thing where I could notget it.
'cause it was too expensive.
Like my parents would've to buyit for me on my birthday once a
year.

right.

And then, so to finally be able to eat my
McDonald meal, I was like, whatis this like true luxury to eat
a fish burger by myself?
Like I

you want.

Whenever I won, like it was crazy.
And so in Singapore, a lot ofMcDonald's are 24 hours.

Yeah.

Our relationship to fast food chains, not just
McDonald's.
It's as you read the book,you'll know that we have a
really intense educationalculture and so people study all
the time.
And so you go to McDonald's andsit there with a student meal.
Sit up for six hours doing yourmath, mathematics, homework,

Wow.

homework.
And so it's very common to belike, Hey, do you wanna go to
McDonald's and growing up, let'ssay it would be one of the more
affordable options.
'cause you think about wholemeal for McDonald's, it also has
student meals, so it would be$5for a burger drink and fry.

Wow.

that's less than a cost of a Starbucks coffee.
So if you have money, you wouldgo to.
Starbucks to study, if you like,had no money, you would go to
the library or McDonald's andhang out with your friends and
do your homework together.
And so that was like really therelationship I had with it
growing up, it felt really likefun and special.

Yeah.

obviously, globalization you can, our
relationship to that haschanged.
Was a real sentimental andnostalgic place to return to.

It's so funny because McDonald's comes up a
couple times in the book,obviously is why I'm asking
about it, and I don't know why,but I didn't expect this like
rich history for you withMcDonald's.
Thank you for sharing all ofthat.
I love that so much.

Oh, welcome.
Yeah, I definitely wanted todeliberately write into the book
things

Yeah.

meant a lot to Singaporeans growing up in that
specific period, you know?

Can you describe to me the three ways of eating a
fry?

So you can like I just like the normal way, like
just numb, num,

Right.

a french fry or.
You could the top and bite theend and just suck out the potato
in the middle.

I need to try this because I don't believe
that.
I don't believe that works.
But you clearly tried it.

Go for it.
It becomes very soggy by theend.
But,

Is it just a McDonald's fry or can any fry be
eaten that way?
Okay.

I think any fry can be eaten that way.

Okay.

As a kid you have one tiny box of rice.
You're really trying to draw itout for as long as possible.
'cause the

so true.

the moment when the box of rice end, it's like such
a small tr it's like a, such agreat tragedy for a small child.
You're like,

Yeah.
Yeah.

you're really trying to prolong this
experience of eating a frenchfry.
And the last way to eat a frenchfry is to.
Like the top of the end, andthen just like nibble the skin
the joining skin and then justeat the skin.

Oh my God.
To be a fly on the wall whileyou were learning how to do all
this.
That's so funny.

You

What

even the craziest thing.
I have friends who like inventedall kinds of secret menu items
to McDonald's.

invented secret menu items they need to be
sponsoring this episode?

I know.

Buy a bunch of stuff and like piece it put it
all together.
Oh, fascinating.
What an interesting idea.
Okay.
Okay.
This is the second episode whereI have a very long conversation
about french fries.
What is the thing in your lifenow that you are drawing out in
that way?
When you were a kid, you didn'twant the box of fries to end,

(26:32):
but what is the, what is thatthing now?

I think maybe currently, as we're recording
this podcast, it's two weeksbefore my book comes out.

Yeah.

I'm really trying to live in the moment.
I think our conversation hasnaturally revolved around this
idea of time.
And one thing that I reallywanna be able to do is be like,
this is the time I'm living inand know exactly what I'm going
through when I'm going throughit.
people keep asking me, are youexcited about it?
But coming out, are you dreadingit?
And I.
I don't feel either way.
I don't feel like it should comeout faster or it should come out

(27:00):
later.
I just feel like I'm gonna meetit when it comes out.
It's

Yeah.

happens, it happens.
That's not accidental.
I had to very deliberatelycultivate this relationship time
because you grew up in a verycompetitive, very achievement
oriented society.
You're always looking for thenext thing.
I don't necessarily feel like Iwanna live that way anymore.
I don't wanna wake up 10 yearsfrom now and be like, those were
the good times in my Were theprecious times.
There's an Nutella Ginsburgessay on this where she talks

(27:25):
about, I think it's calledWinter and a Bruise or
something, and she talks abouthow these like torturous times
that shared with her family.
actually the most precious timesof her life in hindsight,
because of everything thathappens to the family after
that.
And that always stayed with mebecause I don't want to live
looking backwards all the time.
I don't wanna live lookingforward either.
I wanna live with all threetenses and And I think that's

(27:49):
interesting.
I was at of Stana right beforethis.
I was in California for twoyears and in a stagnant is its
own magical thing.
And a lot of it was sittingaround people's backyards eating
their fruit, which is amazing.
Like you can just do that inCalifornia.
And talking about writing andabout what writers are concerned
with.
And one question, one of thesegments asked me was, which two

(28:11):
tenses you live in?
'cause all writers can only livein two the past, the present, or
the future.
And I thought about that a lot,like moving forward and the way
people responded.
It also was very interesting.
So I think, just to answer yourquestion, I'm obviously very
long-winded.
Like I, I do want to draw outthis, this feeling that I have
right now.
So maybe not the time I haveright now, but the feeling I

(28:31):
have

Yeah.

Aware of my life where it's at other contours of
my life, like the gratitude forhaving finished a book which
took so long, like God bless,honestly, like often the world
she goes by.
And the feeling of freedom andexcitement.
That is that, that the book has,allowed me or gifted me this new
relationship to my art where Ican now move in a different
direction.
I can now explore differentquestions in different forms

(28:57):
and.
feeling is of being like, fullyin my physical body and
experiencing time this way, it'sreally magical because for so
much of the process of writing abook and trying to get it
published, you're, writers areneurotic, right?
I'm neurotic.
I was so anxious all the time.
I did not enjoy being anxious.
I don't wanna be anxious if Ican't help it.

(29:17):
So I do, I try and draw out foras long as I can, Of like really
at home in my time and space.

I love that.
It's so funny that we weretalking about how once upon a
time you were a pescatarian,because there was a summer that
I was a pescatarian as achallenge for myself.
I was curious, could I do it forthe summer?
And when the summer was over, I.
Appreciated how present it mademe feel having to Think about my

(29:46):
meals and what was, and just theway I was living, that I just
kept extending it, my, myarbitrary deadline because I
wanted to continue living in thepresent moment in that way.

Wait, so are you still a pescatarian now?

it no, it didn't.

okay.
I would've been so impressed if

No.

it's hard.
It's really

But I appreciated the sort of discipline that.
It gave me.
But no, I was thinking that Iimagine a lot of people these
days think about television andbinging television in that way,
right?
Like they, they wanna save anepisode so they wait as long as
they can before they watch thenext episode of something.

(30:29):
'cause we don't want that box offries to end.

It's interesting you brought up television.
I had to think about it a coupleof years ago because we were I
didn't grow up with television.
Just putting that out there,like I didn't really watch TV
growing up.
It was a slightly later in lifething for me.
And and so even though I didhave a bit of that experience of
watching a TV on air and thenrunning to the bathroom during
the commercial break and runningback very much like of my like

(30:53):
the majority of like when I wasseriously looking at television
was when streaming had come intoplay.
And so I didn't have thatexperience for a lot of it.
And then.
during the pandemic Marvelreleased Wonder Vision.
Did you watch that?

I did.

I loved Wonder Vision and I was shocked that it
was a weekly release formatbecause I watched two episodes.
I was like, oh I'm here forthis.
And it's okay, see you nextweek.
And I was just in shock.
'cause what do you mean see younext week?
See you now.
And.

want instant gratification.

Now.
No, but that was so interesting.
I was like, oh, it's so true.
The release of streaming andjust like technologies that are
designed around trying to feedwhat we want for, to give us
instant gratification or Ourrelationship to gratification.
And it makes sense that thosetechnologies are developed that
way because they're consumeristtechnologies.
They are doing what is the mostprofitable for them, I, they are

(31:47):
not.
They're not like humanisttechnologies, like That living
in this world, it is easy to goon autopilot.
It's easy to just let life carryalong.
Like when is the next jobmilestone?
When is the next season, when isthe next, salary, paycheck
coming in?
When is the next rent due?
What can I do to meet thatmilestone?
and so it's easy to just goyears of your life, like half

(32:09):
asleep.

Hmm.

That's why I feel so strongly about thinking about
trying to move away from that, Ithink

How do you get out of that?

I am ironically trying to develop more of a TV
habit.
I don't have so much of thathabit.
So last year I was like, I, mygoal this year is to watch one
TV show to its end.
And that's like a veryintentional goal I set for

Yeah.

watch a TV series.
And I did it.

What did you pick?

I watched I have a really big girlfriend in
Singapore.
We hang out at each other'shouses like every single weekend
and sometimes more than that.
So we watch culinary class wallstogether.

Oh.

So fun.
It's like this cookingtelevision show.
It's very it's intense.
It's so good.
It's

Huh.

show and now we really wanna go eat all the
food.
And we, for the eight weeks ofwatching it together, suddenly
we were all chefs.
We were like, oh, I'm gonnaslice my spring onions
diagonally.
I dunno.
It's just like such a communal

Yeah.

I find it hard to sit down and watch by myself.
And then I, we also watch theAgatha all along

I have not watched yet, but I do really
wanna watch it.

Oh, you must, it's

Yeah.

I think it's potentially better than Wonder

Okay.

Vision is afflicted by the Marvel.
The turn, hi, we're a Marvelshow.
Whereas Agather all along isvery clearly like a standalone
thing.

Yeah.
Interesting.
All right,

only to itself, which is nice.

So you were intentional about watching this
TV show.

yeah, I like I spend a lot of time.
With my friends and family, likean immense amount of time,
either physically with them ortalking to them or chatting with
them on the phone, and that isnot something I was always able
to do because I was a really Iwas really an overachiever and I
would work like three, four jobsat the same time I started
working.
My first job was at age of 14.

(33:48):
I basically was always going forthe next thing

Yeah.

working really hard.
And I think a lot of that isjust like.
It means that you only have 24hours in a day.
I was absent for a lot of thingsand I don't wanna live that way.
And then when you're writing abook, it becomes.
Like writing is an isolatedactivity, right?
You have to be solitary whiledoing it, Nobody else can enter
the space that you're inmentally, even if they're in the

(34:11):
same room.
and so those two things for me,for the longest time have been
working on this book for such along time as it started reaching
the like.
Five year mark, seven year mark,eight year mark.
It became quite clear that itwas this thing that had
accompanied me through so muchof my writing life, attempting
to finish this book.
I was like, I have to finishthis book or I'll simply die.
And but that is like aconflicting interest to wanting

(34:33):
to spend as much quality time aspossible with the people that I
love.
And so then I became ex, those.
Navigating that relationshipbetween those two things became
really important to me.
'cause it's not, I don't justwanna be a writer with a book
out.
Like I want to have a book out,but I also want to be a, I want
the human being writer that I amwho had created this book to
also be the kind of person whohas, is able to have those

(34:57):
really valued relationships thatare very important to me.

So it sounds like it, it's really about being
intentional.

Mm-hmm.
I think so.
Yeah.

Yeah.
You've talked about yourchildhood a bit and just growing
up and some of the things thathappened and there's something
that comes up about the conceptof the atmosphere of childhood.
Do you remember the atmosphereof your childhood?
Like metaphorically.

Yeah, it was sweaty and I, as we have established, I
do not like to sweat

Yeah.

and think that was like one of the kind of like
interesting craft challengesaround reminding this book,
which is I want to create a bookthat that is as true as possible
to the lives of thesecharacters.
But I also want to create a bookthat reflects a reality that I
love and I don't like to sweat,but if you write a book with
Singaporean characters, they'reall sweaty.

(35:53):
And so I really was like tryingto, have them be so sweaty.
So that was like one of the,it's like a really dumb thing.
Like it's obviously not a

No, I don't think that's dumb at all.
There's, it's that I think is sofascinating because for you to
think about your childhood asbeing sweaty, but how
intentionally you don't want allof your characters to just be
sweaty all the time.
That's so interesting.

Yeah, because, okay, so I'm a really like
physical reader.

Yeah.

read a book set in the desert and I'll feel itchy.
I don't

Hmm.

That feeling and I don't want to have that feeling
when I read my own book either.
'cause I am really conscious,like the thing about writing a
book is this is insanely, I.
authoritative move, it's sayingto another person, like a reader
that I've never met before, justgive me your attention.
Give me your time and give yourentire brain space and

Yeah,

Just give up your will come

so rude.

And a lot of craft choices as you're designing a
book and like revising it is sothat keep the reader in that
world for as long as possible.
And then I'm thinking to myself.
What is the priority of thescene of this sorry, arc of this
chapter and it just not to makemy reader uncomfortable or
sweaty and be like, I wanna.
I'm sweaty now and I don't wannaread this.
It's like there are other thingsthat I am more concerned with,

(37:03):
and so how do I make thisreading environment as
hospitable to the reader aspossible Them there for the more
uncomfortable moments?
So you're thinking really,you're weighing all those
things, thinking like, how can Ikeep the reader engaged?
Because you write a book foryourself

Yeah.

activity for the longest time, and then at some
point you start thinking about.
I'm realizing this is gonnabecome a real book.
It's gonna finish, it's gonnabe, I'm gonna finish a draft.
I'm probably gonna send it out.
And then, so the relationshipchanges a little bit.
It's not just, it's just, it'snot just for me anymore.
It's like, how

Right.

every narrative strategy I know to keep the
reader.
From putting down the book andpart of what you were saying
earlier about time, like this TVshow, I don't want it to end,
I'm saving the TV show.
That is also the relationshipthat we have with our readers.
You hear readers talk about howmuch they love a book, it's not.
It's quite rarely things like,oh, I love the turn of a phrase
on chapter five.
It's usually things like, Icouldn't stop reading it.

(37:55):
I couldn't put it down or Ifinished it so fast or I just
didn't want it to end.
And so it is an emotionalresponse to your relationship
with time that you are likecreating this environment for as
a

Hmm.

And.
All of that was definitely inthe consideration as I was
working on it.
I wanna create this atmosphereof the immersive sense of being
a child again and reading a bookand being totally lost in a
book.
That atmosphere of the earlypages, or the early chapters, or
the early sections of the book,part of that was, I don't want
to break the spell by feelingsweaty

It's it's also interesting because you said
it's readers aren't necessarilysaying to you, oh, I loved this
turn of phrase, or, I love thispassage, or some, anything so
nitty gritty.
It's more big picture.
There's a line about our dreamshaving to adjust to accommodate
reality.
That as an idea broke my brain alittle bit.

(38:51):
I will just go against what youjust said about not picking
something very specific bypicking something very specific.
Because it broke my brain.
I don't often think about howour dreams need to be malleable
Because dreams aren't real.
And so we need to find thebalance between dreams and
reality and the way your turn ofphrase was.

(39:12):
Something about our dreams haveto adjust to accommodate
reality.

Thank you so much for reading so carefully and for
picking that out.
I love it when people do thatbecause I.
It just, it's such a testament,right?
To how deeply you've readsomething that I've worked hard
on, It's always very moving tome when that happens.

Do you agree with that sentiment about dreams
adjusting to accommodatereality?

I do think that we live in an insane reality that
is potentially the worsttimeline.
Like we will break,

Yeah.

don't I do think that the ability to be flexible
or to adapt is like a soft skillthat we don't talk about very
much It's something I thoughtabout a lot about well, writing
this book, like this idea thatwe have all these streams and we
have this vision of reality andour ability to ac assimilate new
information and adapt insteadof.

(40:01):
Holding fast to what we want andthen breaking when that doesn't
happen.
really important and it's aslightly inherited skill.
It is a privilege, like themental flexi flexibility and the
mental like wellness that isneeded to like withstand failure
or disappointment is some islearned behavior.
You learn it from watchingpeople around you, from watching

(40:24):
your parents or watching like arole models around you.
And those people tend to haveaccess to a different kind of.
Like life experience maybe,

Sure.

and and those, and so I do think that when I watch
people move through theeducation system, there is a
dexterity, like a mentaldexterity that, that I think is
like an inherited privilege tosome extent.
We talk a lot about the morevisible, inherited privileges,
like the people you know youhave or the financial background

(40:56):
you have, and all those thingsare extremely important.
But having the to articulatereality of the way the world
works and know how torecalibrate yourself with new
information, I think it's alsoimportant.

The idea of persona comes up in the book.
Does Jemima have a persona Or isJemima way a persona?

I don't know that anybody just has one persona.
I.
I think that we have multiple,we look, contain multitudes, we
have multiple selves, and it'sjust which self is closer to the

Yeah.

forward at that point in time, I think to
myself, I was thinking aboutthis'cause I, somebody else also
asked me something similar,which is about one versus
another self.
But

Yeah.

I think I was just thinking about it more deeply
because of that question, and Idon't really believe in the
binary of the authentic self andthe.
Perform self.
I think there is a range, and Idon't necessarily think that the
performed self is a false self.
I think it is probably theversion of yourself you want to
see out there.

Yeah.

start thinking of yourself in society as a person
with mirrors around you, whichis, I think basically what the
internet is right now.
It's like a giant mirror whereyou're constantly migrate,
adjusting your behavior andchecking yourself even when no
one else is there.
Are like.
to move towards a version ofyourself that you

Yeah.

to believe in.
I think the more important thingfor me is being able to separate
that relationship to yourperceived self from the fact
that empirically you are a selfhaving that really healthy
relationship that is reallyimportant.

Yeah.

because perception doesn't change your empirical
like eyes, nose, your, person.
Personhood.
And I think it's reallyimportant to see yourself as
someone who is fully worthy ofdignity and

Mm.

Which is not something that, you would think
that it's like the bare minimum,but it's not really something
that, performance and audienceis set up to encourage Really.

That's so interesting and I recently had
Katie Kitura on the show talkingabout audition and so much of
the, I don't know if you've hada chance to read it yet, but so
much of the book is about that,right?
Like how we are constantlyauditioning.
For a role in our lives, in ourown lives and how our own,

(43:13):
persona on a daily basis canshift based on the costume we
put on.

Yeah, but if you think about it, you know what is
one of the core desires of aperson is to be seen for who you
are and loved for who you are.
Not loved like blindly, right?
Not whatever you do, it's fine.
It's to be seen for all yourflaws and all your nasty, its
and to still be like, I acceptyou for who you are and I'm here
with you through this time.
And I do think that is likedirectly conflict thing with

(43:41):
this sense of having to put up apersona all the time.

Right.

And this book that I wrote I've always, I mean that
it's about so many things, butI've always thought about it as
a book about love, A reallynon-romantic love story.

Sure.

Yeah.

A question that you ask in the book, What
occupies your imagination?
I'm asking you.
Yeah.
Jemima, what occupies yourimagination?

so currently I am thinking about parallel roles.
I.

Say more.

a lot of, okay, great.
I've been reading a lot offantasy.

That's your favorite phrase.
Say more.

phrase.
I know.
I love talking.
I have this t-shirt that's likecertified yapper.

Tell me why is this, what's in your
imagination.

Because I was thinking about like the
different forms of narrativethat we experience.
And one that is really popularthat we don't see as much in
like pro literature, but I see alot in.
Japanese animation or in thoselike that traditional
storytelling, like web comics isthis idea of going into a
different world, like the akanarrative.

(44:43):
And so I was thinking like aboutthat.
It's type of portal fantasy.
And And then I started asking,all of these stories that we
have of like dreaming ofalternate lives, dreaming of,
and having the opportunity torealize that they tend to come
at quite a young age, right?
Think about Narnia,

I was just gonna say Narnia.
Yeah.

literal children.

Yeah.

Earlier in our conversation, I think this is an
expansion of what I, what youasked me earlier about what I
was thinking about with regardsto freedom.
I do Are the costs of freedom?
What if, we had that parallelwill offer to us at different
stages in our lives.
And, I don't know that I couldwalk away from my life right
now.
I was talking to my editor aboutthis because.

(45:24):
We were talking about bookswe've read recently, I've read
Samantha Harvey's Orbital on thePlane right here.
And I thought it was amazing andinteresting for me specifically.
'cause when I was a kid, Iwanted to be an astronaut

Oh.

Yeah.
And I'm not sciencey, so thatobviously never happened.
She was like, why do you wannabe an astronaut?
And I was like I don't know.
I really like the idea of beingalone for an extended period of
time and being able to see the

You would never be able to do that.
There's no one to talk to.

I would talk to myself like I have I'm literally
never bored.
Okay.
So I don't know if you can tellI have a DHD.

Yes.
Yes.
Same, right?
Yes.

And just this idea of being able to behold the
world in That splendor from aweight instead of being on it, I
think was very interesting to meas a child.
And anyway, that never happened,but.

Spoiler alert.

spoil that never happened, but there is no age
limit to being an astronaut, aswe have recently found out.
So my editor was like, it's nottoo late.
You could still be an astronaut.
And I was like, I cannot, it'stoo late for me because I have
deliberately an intentionallytethered my life to, so I cannot
live this life.

(46:31):
I the people in it too much.

Hmm.

My chains and they're on this earth.
So I'm not going to the moon.
Who knows?

Who never say never.

never say never.
But honestly, I, yeah.
Who knows what's on the moon.
It's not gonna be me whodiscovers it.
when thinking about whatoccupies my imagination, like
recently, a lot of what I wasthinking about is, you know,
it's not just what lives are outthere for us, but what are the
costs of pursuing those lives,which is an extension of the
question I pursue in this book,honestly.
So that is something I've beenthinking a lot about.

(47:02):
I've been trying verydeliberately to move my
imagination away from this earthor like this reality we live in,
because it's been terrible.
It's been like truly awful.

fair.

And so I'm thinking a lot about that.
Um, I was also thinking a lot,recently and unwillingly about
grief.
I guess like part of the, likethe cause of love is like loss
and, not intentionally, I don'tintentionally surround imagining
like what it would be like tolose people.
But, I have thought a lotrecent, in recent years about
the nature of grief and the wayit manifests.
Our relationship withnon-speaking beings.

(47:33):
So let's just sample out what'sgoing on in this fun house.

In our last few minutes together, the original
daughter is an art rock bookclub pic.
Congratulations.

I'm so happy.

I have a question from our friends at Aard Rock
Book Club

Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

here it is.
Jen and Erin's sisterly dynamicsare shaped by the fact that Jen
is older.
When Erin spending much of herlife looking up to her until
this abruptly shifts, was thereever a draft where Erin was the
older sister?

No, but there was a draft where Aaron was a brother.

What.

That was crazy behavior.
I scraped that draft real quick,but that was like a whole year.
Yeah.

A whole year of a brother.

Yeah.
Well, I wasn't writing full timeback then, so it was a big part.
Yeah.

Oh, fascinating.
Had it been a sister, and thenbriefly you were like, wait, let
me see if it works as a brother.
And then you were like, no, no,no, no, no.
Jk.

Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,

that's good.
Inside Scoop.

I know.
I know.
I think it's so crazy right nowwhen I think back on it, but
yeah.

thanks a rec book club for the question.

Oh, thank you.

and everyone can go to ard rec book club.com and
use the code gaze reading andget a book for$4.
So there you go.

Woohoo.

Um,

Thank you so much for having me.
This is so fun.
I love yapping about the book.

Yap.
Yap Yap.
About the book everyone go getyour copy of the original
daughter.
It's so beautiful and

you.

out now.
Wherever you get your books,have a great rest of your day.

bye.

Harper! (49:14):
Guest Gay Reader time!

I have never had a fashion icon on the show, and
the only thing that wasacceptable for me to wear is my
husband's captain.

Prabal Gurung (49:30):
I love it.

I was like, this is the most absurd thing in my
home.
there's nothing else I couldwear other.
I was like, I'm either naked orwearing this.

Either is fine, either fine audience, right?

Perfect.
I also, I look at you, you haveyour racks set up behind you
looking very profesh, veryfabulous.

this is our showroom.
This is where all the magic, thefittings, everything happened.
So I was planning to do it at myhome.
Then I was like, I have to be atwork.
You know, who has the luxury ofbeing at a, um, home and doing a
podcast when you have to work?

In the middle of the day.
Right.

listen, I'm a sucker for romance novels I'm,
like a big Jane Austen fan.

Oh my god.

every version of like pride and prejudice.
So, so for me, like my, like Iam a sap, I cry at every
romantic gestures

You talk about loving, loving romance, Jane
Austen probably.
What are you reading?

right now there, I mean, I just finished, um,
herand, Diaz's, uh, book, um,which I really love.
Did you, have you read it?
No,

no, it's sitting on my shelf.
I've heard wonderful things.

of the, I mean, thought it was brilliantly
written, and I loved that book,and

Yeah.

that and I picked up this book called Rejection,
have you read it?

I did.

So I'm like, almost towards the end of it, I,
it started with me going like,ha ha, ha.
Like, you know, being like, ohmy God.
Like, what?
Like to, I'm like, whoa.
Like,

Yeah.

and so I've been like telling a few of my friends
who've read and asking themlike.
Should I finish?
Is this gonna be heavy?
Like, is it, you know, like, Idon't know where it's going.
You know, in a sense it's, it'sbrilliantly written.
It's

Yes, yes.

yeah, but it's also telling of our times.
You know, it's also that, and,and it's funny thing what
happened was, like couple ofweeks ago, I was holding the
book and I was, um, at a, ithappened twice to me.
I was at both at differentrestaurants.
I was carrying that book and Iwas walking in, and you know how
in New York nobody says reallylike, hi, hello.

(51:41):
Immediately someone across thetable like, hi.
Like, like, and I said hi andsaid, oh my God, have you
finished that book?
Okay.
Everyone like, and, and then theother person was a, another one
was say, have you read the book?
What did you think of?
And you know, it's almost like,let's say you wear a, like a
t-shirt with a, you know,somebody loves like, let's say

(52:02):
Britney, and they're like, oh myGod, I love you with

Uhhuh.

It was like the book had, and I was like, you
what?
I'll take, a connection thathappens through literature
rather than anything else,

Yes.
Oh, I love that.

yeah.
So I, I mean, new Yorkers whoare notorious, including myself,
notoriously, let's say reservedand stoic and unfriendly, um,
were really reaching out becausethere was a connection.
So it really took touch a nerve.
So do you think I, should Ifinish it or not?

Well, here's what I'll say.
The first half of the book, Iloved, I could, I, I laughed it,
it, it spoke to me.
And the second half of the book,I was like, what the hell am I
reading?

Yeah.
So it's, it's been that for metoo,

Yeah.

time they were like, moments of it, like, I
know, or I could see my, like,all we, we all have that, you
know, glimpses of it.

Yeah.

I was just like, it's getting into this.
And I'm just like, whoa.
Like I'm reading it.
I'm like, wait a second, what?

Uhhuh Uhhuh.
That's so funny.
You know, and, and part of why Ido this guest gay reader series
is because you know someone likeyou, like, yes, you have a book
coming out, but, but I'm sureon, on a regular basis you are
not certainly publicly talkingabout books that you're reading
and for you to be read.
You're reading rejection, you'rereading trust.

(53:19):
These are books that are likemeaty and in the world and you
have people coming up to youasking you about what they see
in your hands.
Like it books really bringpeople together and I find that
so cool.

Yeah.
You know, it's so funny because,I, I've always believed that
books have a way of finding you,and also when what you read and
what you, especially what youhold.
There might be books that youread and you keep it at home,
but what you carry with you,

Yeah.

you carry it.
I may be crazy, but I feel likeit's a way of revealing who you
are, right?
So it's very intimate andpersonal, what you read, and
especially you hold onto,because as, as unexpected as it
was, it's, it opens up dialoguesfrom different kind of people,

Yeah.

um, people judging?
Are people, you know, do youknow what I mean?
It's, it's, When you are arelatively, like, let's say
public persona, like, you know,per personality, your private
moment is a public privatemoment.

Mm-hmm.

on Instagram and everything, but then when you
let, let's say I, you know, my,one of my favorite restaurants
in, in New York City is thisJapanese restaurant called Omen.
You know, that's where I, um,met this woman.
Like, you know, when I went withmy book and everything and I was
actually giving my memoir to afriend of mine who's a musician,
and I had like, you rejectionalso.

Uh

she, that's when she was like, oh, whatcha
reading, rejection?
Oh my God.
What?
She happened to be a publisheralso, you know?

Oh, how funny.

started chatting and then she said, what's the
other book you're holding?
I was, I kid you not, I'm notsomeone necessarily shy, but I
was like, so like, I was like,oh, like, um, well, um, I say
it's a book.
And I said, then she like, letsee it.
And she, then she, and then Isaid, it's my memoir.
And she said, oh my God.
I could not even bring myself tosay it out because it, it was

(55:01):
just

Yeah.

I'm not, you know, I'm not prepared for that
because I don't live in yourworld.
So I don't know, you know, Ijust know my books have been my
friends and so many ways, like,you know, have saved me in so
many situations, you know?

Wow.
I love that.

it's like your best friend that nobody knows,
you know?

Yes.
Well, it's so, I'm, I say thison every episode.
I'm a late in life reader.
I didn't really start readinguntil five or six years ago.
And similar, I feel the sameway.
And I, and I mention books topeople and it opens up a
conversation and it changes somany things and it really brings
people together.
And I can only imagine, youknow, the difference between

(55:40):
holding your book at arestaurant and someone asking
you about it versus, versusit's, it, it's in the store,
someone's buying it, you'reremoved from it.
It does, you've put it out intothe world and it's different.

And, you know, and the, the hope is.
The romantic in me.
Oh.
And, and because I discoverbooks, you know, like, and so
the romantic in me wants to,wants people to find this book
over the period of time.
And

Yeah.

it touches them or like, you know, it, you kind
of like resonates with them.
But the world we live in, youknow, there's a, um, you know,
it comes with the whole purposeof like, no longer do we live in
a world where people aren'tdistracted.
So you almost have to bringforward, Hey, this is what I've
done.
Pay

Mm.

to had I written fiction, it might have been
easier for me,

Yeah.

It's a memoir.
So a lot of it's really personaland almost like you're really
completely naked in front ofpeople

Yeah.

um, um, you know, so it's been like really, um,
ups and downs, like emotionally,

I can only imagine.
I mean, I want to hear how youfell in love with Jane Austen,
but we're, we're on the journey.
Let's talk about your book,walked Like a Girl, is out now.
even the title is Vulnerable.
obviously it was your memoir.
is there like a, what is theheart of the story, would you
say?

Walk Like a girl, I would say is, um, it's a part
memoir, but mostly a love letterto people who've always felt
like they've been seen, heard,marginalized, people who've felt
like they've often get there,not enough or too much,

Hmm.

people who feel like their existence somehow.
I I've made to feel like itdoesn't matter.
It is,

Hmm.

for them, it's a story for them.
Walk like a girl is to like walkthrough life with, courage and
resilience and softness anddefiance and grace and, it's a
making this wonderful roadmapback to yourself,

Hmm.

you know?
And I would say that to me iswhat walk like a girl is, and,
and walk like a girl is alsothis over the period of time,
like through my own life,realized that feminine leaning
ideas, feminine leaning peopleare the.
Ultimate saviors for the mankindand for people

Hmm.

I've realized that and when I say about
feminine leaning ideas andpeople, it's the, it's not
necessarily gender.
It's this idea of empathy,thoughtfulness.
It's about, caring about eachother, like the environment,
accountability, everything thatwe talk about, because for the
longest period of time we'vebeen conditioned to think that
success has one kind of narrowdefinition, which is you have to

(58:19):
have a house in here.
You have to house this again,you have to be like this.
it's very heteronormative ideaof adhering to that idea of
masculinity to me, which almostfeels like a caricature, you
know?
I wanted to share the story ofmine that because of my leaning
towards my, feminine side andmatriarchy and celebration of
it, could save myself.

Hmm.

I don't wanna be a teacher.
I just want to share.
And, Part of it was like, uh,wow, like, you know, trauma, uh,
things that you go through, younever, it never leaves you,

Yeah.

you find better tools to deal with it, like
sharing the story, talking toyou, like talking to my
therapist, talking to myfriends, but the pain is pain,
you know?
And, um, it really, shook mycore and, it really, um, like it
really, made me really rethinkabout what was, what was
important to me, the values, andthen also come to terms with the

(59:15):
thing that.
Because if, when you live in NewYork, when you're an
entrepreneur and when you'relike someone who's like
constantly doing things andachieving things, wanting to
achieve things, what you do isyou set aside, all right, I'm
going to give myself an hour tofeel sorry, and then move on.
Like,

Yeah.
Mm-hmm.

Pain doesn't work like that.

Right.

You know, pain, like, you know, I could be
sitting in somewhere andsomething triggers like, you
know, you all of a sudden you'relike thinking about, whether
it's your father or whether it'syour lost love or things that,
you know, brings

Mm-hmm.

you just have better tools to deal with it.
I was always scared of beingunhealed, you know, but now in
Nonhealing I've found myself

Hmm.

Nonhealing.
I've found that that as, as muchas success and joy is part of
me, so is my,, strugglesdifferent sides of the same
coin,

Jason Blitman (01:00:04):
Yeah.

Prabal Gurung (01:00:05):
you know, and, and, yeah.

I think about things like that as a snowball,
right?
Like those things don't go away.
They're just deeper inside ofus, right?
And we grow and, and, and maybethere will be something that
triggers those feelings andmaybe it'll be a sense memory.
You'll smell something.
Or you'll see someone whoreminds you of someone from your
child, right?
Who knows how that will sneak upon you.

(01:00:28):
Um, thank you for sharing all ofthat.
I think it's, uh, something thatwe don't always think about when
someone's.

yeah.
Because you, I also don't wanna,this is one of the reasons I
initially I was going to belike, in all this, like, you
know, press stuff, I was gonnabe like, this, this, this, you
know, like, you know, you knowhow the usual stuff.

Uh

But, you know, a couple of months ago, like, you
know, there was this, like,designers, like my peers also,
and some, like new designers,they, keeps on saying to me
like, you make it, make it seemso joyful and easy, know?

Mm.
Make it, make the work seemjoyful and easy, or make or make
the book seem joyful and easy

no, no.
Make

work.
Yeah.
Just in general.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

What I do.
Like my being like, you know, itseems like,

Yeah.

just like, that is true and my life from the
outside looks like bright andbold and, you know, exciting,
but the joy is hard earned,

Mm-hmm.
And takes work.

yeah, it takes work.
And I, and I kind of didn'twanna, what I realized, what I
put on Instagram and everything,I was just like, wait a second,
have I been perpetuating thisidea of this like, you know,
toxic positivity, constantlyhappy, constantly fabulous.
You know, I'm just like, wait asecond.
There's a, I need people tounderstand that nothing comes to
anyone that easy.

Mm-hmm.

Especially something that feels, that
something that you feel like,you know, it can move, can move
the needle for you and forsomeone else.
It is, it takes work, you know?
And so I just didn't want peopleto think just because I don't
talk, I.
Too much about my past and mypain.
This is the first time I'mtalking about it.
Just so that you know, and, um,doesn't mean making it, I've had

(01:02:01):
it easy.
That's what, you know.

Yeah, listen, I fully understand that, and I am
someone who makes a choice to.
I choose to be happy, I chooseto be joyful.
I choose to be glass half full.
Um, and that doesn't come easilybecause all of the bad things
are still there.
And it's, and it's not ignoringthem, it's choosing to focus on

(01:02:26):
other things, um, and thennavigate it in, in a way that
works.
Yeah,

And what you're just saying is it's so right.
It's like, it's, it's not thatyour challenges are not there,
you know, it's just like, it'sthe same thing for me too.
It says like,

yeah,

you to know the book is about this.
I want you to know what I'vebeen through.
And it's no different fromsomeone else.
Like so many of us, so manyqueer folks of

yeah.

just queer folks.
What I want people to understandis, despite of all those
challenges, you can still choosejoy.

Yeah.

it's, it can be hard, sometimes it cannot be
like, you know, achievable forlike different people and
everything, but I, I chose that.
Doesn't mean it was gonna workfor you,

Mm-hmm.

and not denying the challenges in a world that
constantly only interested incelebrating success,

Mm.

you know,

something that I've been asking everyone, in a
time to amplify our loved onesand our friends and people that
mean so much to us.
If you were to die tomorrow Whowould you choose to delete your
search history on your computer?

(01:03:39):
Who do we trust with our lifeand our secrets?

Hmm.
Actually I have a lot of friendsand, and, okay.
I would say, I'll start with mybrother and my sister, who are
my best friends, my sister, justso that my sister lives in, in
Katmandu.
My brother lives in Mumbai.
He is a film director.
My sister's a writer,

Oh my God.
What a family.

They're like my, like I always say, somebody asks
me to jump from like 50 50thfloor, and if they say, my
brother and my sister areholding the thing, I'll do it.
You

Oh.

my, they're, and like, they're my best friends
and they're the reasons why,like you, they're my, honestly,
they're my moral compass.
They're my like, you know, kindof like my standard of like
humanity.
And then I have like really goodfriends.
I'm so fortunate, honestly,like, and I'm Thank you for
asking that because I've neverthought about this.
Thank you for asking, becauseit's made me just realize how
abundant my life is.

(01:04:32):
I just realized that I didn'teven realize it till, because I
sometimes, you know, like,you're like, oh, friends, this
and that.
I don't wanna bother.
Like you think I'm like, I haveactually, and then I have like
more than, God, I have more than10

Wow.

like,

That you can rely on for something so important
like that.

like, oh my God, thank you so much for asking
this because.
I had, I didn't even, oh, oh myGod.
Like, I'm gonna cry.
Because I didn't even realize,um, like, and I didn't realize
that, um, my life was so full.

Mm

because not because of everything that
outside accolades or anythinglike that, or the book, it's
just because I'm like so lovedby my friends, you know?
And I have that.
And I grateful.
I'm so grateful, and I'm sograteful to you.
I'm honest to God.
Like, I'm glad you asked me

oh.

I never thought, I never thought, I'm like, you
know, oh my God, thank.

Of course.
No, listen, I, it, it wassomething that was asked on a TV
show and it had me thinkingabout the, the people in my
life.
And, you know, it's not askingsomeone to give you a ride to
the airport, right?
Like, that could be tedious orinconvenient for someone.
But when you really needsomeone, you know, deleting your
search history, I don't wantpeople to know all those
secrets.
Who, who am I gonna trust withthat?

(01:05:53):
To have a moment to pause andthink about those people in your
life.
I, uh, always like a good reasonfor that.

Wow.
is a really good question.
You

Thank you.

I was honestly, when I was like, you started our
conversation, I didn't knowwhere it was going to go.
But again, I was, I like, I knewwe have this conversation, but I
didn't, it just made me like formore like made me internalize
like, you know, like as I said,like how abundant my life is and
how many things my God, youknow,

Well,

this is the thing about living in this capitalist
world, sometimes like, you know,you are like so conditioned and
accustomed to, you know,associating yourself with the
idea of success that is based ontheir idea.

yeah.

know, like, you know this all big, shiny better
and, and.
I had been in my own way, avictim of that, a conditioned in
that, you know, like being like,have I done enough?
Have I done enough?
Have

Mm-hmm.

done it?
Constantly feeling like that.
And that question really made merealize, if nothing else, I'm
grateful that the friends that Ichose are solid ones.
Solid ones.

I love that.
Thank you for going through thatjourney with And shout out to
your brother and sister.
I, my, my two sisters.
I'm very close with them too.
And I think they would, theywould be high on my list.
Yeah.

yeah.
There's nothing.
I love them so much becausethey're such good people,

Yeah.

good people.
People with integrity,

Mm.
I mean, my one, certainly one ofmy sisters would, first, they'd
read everything first and thendelete it.
'cause she's nosy.
But she would still do it.
She would read it first, but shewould still do it Pablo, this
has been so fun.
I could talk to you all day.
I, I do really wanna hear howthis Jane Austen thing came to

(01:07:48):
be.
I love that you are such areader.

I'm really enjoying this conversation, so
let's just go.

Yeah.
and this is just the beginningof the conversation.
Go check out the rest on thegays reading Substack.
It is such a delight to chatwith P.
Thank you so much.
Also, thank you to Jemima Way.
Make sure to check out theoriginal daughter and walk like
a girl.
Both are out now.
Original daughter.
You can get on Art Artwork Bookclub using the code gays reading

(01:08:16):
at checkout for only$4.
Alright everyone, those are allthe things.
Have a wonderful rest of yourday.
Bye.

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