Joe Westmoreland (Tramps Like Us) feat. Rob Franklin, Guest Gay Reader

Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Gaze reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what andwhy.
Anyone can listen Comes we arespoiler free.
Reading from stars to book clubpicks we're the curious minds
can get their picks.
Say you're not gay.

(00:24):
Well that's okay there somethingeveryone.
Hello and welcome to Gay'sReading.
I'm your host Jason Litman.
And on today's episode we haveJoe Westmoreland talking to me
about his book Tramps Like Us.

(00:46):
And my guest, gay reader todayis Rob Franklin, whose book,
great Black Hope, just came outa couple of weeks ago.
both of their bios can be foundin the show notes.
Tramps like us has such aninteresting story behind it.
It originally was published in2001.
It was sort of lost to the worldand MCD at FSG just picked it
up, uh, to republish for thefirst time, since then, and it's

(01:10):
very exciting to have this.
This sort of historical piece ofqueer fiction, uh, live on in
the world.
And so you'll learn more aboutthat in this episode.
As always, if you like whatyou're hearing, please share us
with your friends.
Follow us on social media.
We are at Gaze Reading onInstagram.
There are giveaways and all thethings happening all the time.
I am so grateful to all of youlisteners.

(01:32):
There's so much happening in theworld right now and.
You know, books I think can be asolace and also dust up some
difficult things, and I don'tknow.
I'm grateful that you clickedplay on this.
I'm happy to spend the timechatting, chatting about books
with you.

(01:52):
as I've mentioned on multipleepisodes, I have recently
started a book club on Altoa.
You could check out the link forthat in the show notes and on
Instagram, the July pick isdisappoint Me by Nicola Dine,
and you can join the club for aslittle as$1.
And then every month the bookwill be delivered to your door,

(02:14):
curated by yours.
Truly.
I've already picked out the nextcouple of books and I am so
excited to share them with you.
And so check out the link tolearn more and it's a super
great deal and I hope you, youjoin along the journey.
It'll be, it'll be really fun.
Um, alright, all of that said.
Thanks again for being here andenjoy my conversations with Joe
Westmoreland and Rob Franklin.

Joe Westmoreland (02:36):
my partner, Charlie got the he bought the
apartment in 1980 and it waslike$12,000, so we can't afford
to move anywhere.

Jason Blitman (02:46):
No.
You're gonna be there forever.

Yeah.

Wow.
Oh, I'm so jealous.

It's like a floor through with we have
really high ceilings, so youcan, with the molding and,

Oh, I see those ceilings.

yeah.
Uhhuh, if you, it's like wehaven't renovated or anything,
so it's beat up and, worn out,paint chipping and

Classic.
You mean it's classic, right?
Exactly.
Oh, how fun is that?
How long have you been livingthere?

I've been here since 1990, so 30, 35 years, and
he's been here since 1980.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Wow.
Okay.

The book is a lot about looking for home
Moving around, looking forsomeplace to live and someplace
I felt safe and it's I it, I'mhere.
I've been here 35 years, soobviously I found my home,

and that's so interesting too because not only
is the book about finding ahome, but it's a, it, you really
see these characters astransient people who are moving
all the time.

Yeah.
Yeah.

So staying in one place for 30 years is quite the
opposite.

And the last thing I ever thought I would do.
Yeah.

Was day put for 30 years.

It was, yeah.
Yeah.
And be in a relationship thatlong too.
Not too long ago, I was helpingbecause Charlie's 10 years older
than me, and I was helping himout of the bathtub not too long
ago.
And we were like having troubleand, get, but anyway I just
started laughing and I was like,oh my God, can you believe that
we're doing this?
That we've been together so longthat I was like, oh we're

(04:25):
growing old together.
And I said something like, do,did you ever think when we fir
when we first met, we would bedoing this?
And he immediately said, no, notat all.
That was not his plan,

What did that feel like when you had that
realization?

It felt comforting actually.
Yeah.
But also it's just time is soweird, you know?
It, it, it seems like yesterdayand then it seems like a long
time ago.
Both.
Charlie keeps saying I'm adifferent person than I was
then, and I'm like, nah I'm thesame person, but different
circumstances and

That's interesting.
A piece of advice that we gotwhen we got married was how we
won't be the same people as weare the day that we're getting
married and to, learn to growand change with each other.
But I think to your point, atyour core, you are the same
person, right?
So there are things about youmaybe that have changed but deep
inside is still,

I'm still Joe.

yeah.
Yeah.
I wanna know how you're doing'cause I read and, your
afterward is intense.
You have you've had a quite alife post writing the book and
I'm very curious to hear, we'lltalk all about the book of
course in a second, but are yougood?
Is your are how are things.

I, yeah, because I have long-term aids,
which like, people don't talkabout that much.
They think with the antiviralsaids is over or whatever, but
but I just, it's I call themadventures.
I have health adventures insteadof a health crisis.
'cause it's always an adventureand it's usually different no

(06:04):
matter what happens.
But in the book I talk, or inthe afterward I talk about, I I
had a tumor on my liver and Iwas having it removed and it
was, I was scheduled for surgeryon a Thursday and the Saturday
night before the tumor burst.
And so that's where that littlepart kicks in.

(06:25):
But j just right beforeChristmas, I found out that
tumor had re, had, re returned.
I had a recurrence of it.
In the end of January I hadsurgery and I had it removed and
it was supposed to be like a,like really fast, simple
surgery.
But of course my body's had beenthrough so much.

(06:45):
It turned out to be complicated.
And I thought I'd be in two orthree days and I wound up being
there eight days and caughtCOVID while I was in the
hospital.
And then I was like, in, thatwas the end of January.
So February and March I was inthe hospital two more times,
just recovering from that.

(07:07):
So it was very, it was intense.
And I also caught norovirusduring that time and that one
almost did me in, that was likethe 1st of March.
And I was, I.
I was so weak, I couldn't liftmy arm to lift my phone to call.
And Charlie was in Boston at thetime, and so I was alone.
And I couldn't call anybody andif they came, they would've had

(07:28):
to knock the door down anyway.
But anyway, it worked out.
But that, like the other nightat the Strand at the book
launch, I was sitting up thereand feeling like fine and happy
and joking around with Eileenand stuff and I was just like,
it's, my body's amazing.
It keeps bouncing back,

Yeah, it's like kind of crazy, Joe.
That's a, that's, it's using theword adventure is not wrong.

My, my oncologist said that I'm like a
miracle of modern technology.
Or the, or chemistry that likebetter living through chemistry
kind of thing.
Like I, it couldn't have Icouldn't have survived, like a
decade before because theydidn't have the medicine to help
me.
Yeah.

I, I think what I am most compelled by is, I think
so many other people in yoursituation at some point would
say, I can't deal with thisanymore.
And that doesn't seem to be yourattitude at all.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I keep even this time with, whenI had Norovirus and I wound up
like back in the ICU later thatday and stuff, but I had, I have
this, and I've had it beforewhere I have this moment where
it's like I can go to sleep andit'll, everything will stop and
it'll be okay.
It's, it won't be a bad thingand I've had a good life.

(08:58):
I just keep thinking, no,there's something else I have to
do.
I'm not ready to go.
I, gotta make sure Charlie andmy cat are okay.
Just, I wanna write more.
I want to get back.
And I have book number twothat's, I'm always playing with
a little bit at a time.
And

Yeah.

But it's like I have, I'm I've ha had this
decision.
It's do you wanna go to sleep?
Do you want this to stop?
Or not?
And I'm always like, no let'skeep going.

Yeah.
Good for you.
Not to, start on such a heavytopic, but this

No, that's my life.

yeah, this book is a little heavy Joe, a little
heavy happening going on over

yeah.

The getting.
I'm curious to talk about thejourney of the book, first
before we dive into what thebook is about, because the, you
could write a whole book aboutthe writing of the book and of
the fallout of publication andall of that.
I find that story.
So it's fascinating.
It's incredible.
It is the most horrible set ofcircumstances, and yet again,

(09:58):
here we are.
Can you share a little bit aboutinitial publication and your
intended pub party that you weregoing to have on your birthday?
All of that.
It's what a story.
If you could share a bit ofthat.

Yeah.
The first thing, and I talkedabout this the other night and
it's silly, but I'm, I, a friendof mine and I do this thing
called, it's a creative visualvisualization technique called
the Pink Bubble Technique.
we imagine what we want and andtry to be as specific as we can,
and then we surround it in apink bubble of light and love.

(10:34):
And then we float it off to theuniverse and as it's floating up
in the air, we say this orsomething better is coming to me
for the good of all concerned.
It means I'm gonna get it andeverybody else who has anything
to do with it will have goodthings happen also.

Did you make this up?

no, it's it's in a book called, it's called
Creative Visualizations by Shaq.
Shaq Dwain,

okay.

And it's like a small book with just basic
instructions for different waysto visualize and meditate.
But ID because it was a pinkbubble, I was like, oh my God, I
have to do that.
And it made it easier to get newage or something, But I did, I
put the and she, my friendDeborah and I, we meet.

(11:23):
Like every New Year's dayinstead of New Year's
resolutions.
And the, we started it, she wemet like in award processing
center for a law firm.
We were working next to eachother and we were both really
miserable and we wanted out ofthere, so we did a pink bubble
to get better jobs, which weboth founded.
But she wanted to move, but shemoved from, she had lived in San

(11:46):
Francisco also, but her subletwas ending.
She needed an apartment and shewanted a doorman apartment
within walking distance ofLincoln Center because she loved
to go to Lincoln Center.
And she moved to New York to goto Lincoln Center and she was a
dancer.
And so we did the, our firstbubble at the fountain at

(12:07):
Lincoln Center, and it wasbetter jobs and for her to get,
and I was like, she's, she'snever gonna get a doorman
apartment near Lincoln Center.
And I thought she'd probablyhave to move to Brooklyn.
And this is before it waspopular to live in Brooklyn.

sure.

But then she got one of these, they're called
80, 80 20 apartments where 20%are low rent.
And she got one right?
It's on Riverside Drive, rightacross from the, like her
apartment looks down on theHudson River, and it's just
maybe four blocks to the, toLincoln Center.
And it's a brand new apartmentwith a like, beautiful elevator

(12:47):
and lobby and two or threedoormen.
Yeah.
So we just kept going and thenafter that I'd finished the
manuscript and we put the bookand I needed an editor and in
order to get an editor, youneeded an agent, but you
couldn't have an agent if youdidn't have an editor.
And so I put that and I reallywanted Ferra Strauss and FSG,

(13:10):
and I put that in the bubble.
And so it's 25 years later,everything I put in the bubble
came.
It fell in my lap, kind of

I was gonna ask how long the bubble takes.

It can take immediately.
This one, this was a big,

this was a long journey of a bubble.

Yeah.
And it, it was a bubble that Iforgot.
I did

Wow.

Yeah.
But it's that whole thing abouttrusting and trusting in
yourself and listening to yourinner voice.
And and I even when I waslooking for a publisher, this
is, 2 19 98 or 99 or something,I called for our Strauss.
And the receptionist was reallysweet and she was like younger

(13:52):
than me.
And I, she was telling me that.
I needed to have my agent callthem that they didn't talk
directly to authors, and I waslike I don't have an agent.
And she got, was telling methat, I need, I needed to go
find one and then call back in ayear or maybe three years or
maybe 10 years.
And she said, keep writing.

(14:14):
And she totally got what I wasdoing, but she was telling me
how the bald facts of it all.

Yeah.
I wonder where she is now.

I know.
I think about that.
I'd like to thank her.
Yeah,

Yeah, we should ask FSG, who was the
receptionist back in the latenineties, but it's very possible
you can thank her.

Yeah.

That's so fun.
The book started out as amemoir.

Yes.

What was the journey from memoir to fiction?

Okay.
First I, I took a I was writingall these.
Stories about my friends.
And I took a memoir writingclass at the 92nd Street Y that
Hedy Jones taught, and HedyJones, I didn't know this until
later, but she was married toLeroy Jones, who is also Amira
Baraka, who was a beat poet.

(15:05):
And she had been one of theeditors at Grove Press when Alan
Ginsburg and Jack Carac were,she said Jack Carac slept on her
couch.

Oh my

And yeah, so I was like, wow, this is my
teacher.
But she showed the class how toshape what the story showed me
how to shape my stories and turn'em into a book that read that
made sense.
And from there, I, so I waswriting it as a memoir and then
it started i, in real life, Ihave three sisters and two

(15:38):
brothers, and it just startedgetting confusing when I was
talking about all my brothersand sisters.
And then there was stories thatthey also, it was just too much
detail and too many people andstuff.
So I started making one personin the book out of three, two or
three people that I knew.
And some of the stories were twoor three stories that I blended

(16:02):
into one.
And then there I had, there wasa couple of places where it just
wasn't working.
And the story the, as a book, itwasn't fitting together.
So I just wrote, I made up awhole chapter and, or a couple
of chapters actually, but Imade, when I needed to, I put a
fake, a fictional chapter in,

Sure.
For our listeners, now that wehave a little bit of context and
backstory, what is, what wouldyou say is the elevator pitch of
tramps like us?

It's kind of cliche, but a coming of age
story, but, uh, like a young guylooking for home and creating a
family out of friends, likeleaving a dysfunctional family
and making a new one where hefelt safe.

Yeah.

All the trouble I that I got into.
I also talk because it startedas a memoir.
When I talk about the book, Isay me or I, but even though the
Joe, the character is fictionalor fictionalized, but I don't
say a separate Joe.
I just say it as me.

That Joe versus this Joe, do you right?
Do

I say Young Joe,

oh, sure.
Yeah.

I don't know that it's a lot of things
actually.
It's, you know, to it.
I wanted to remember my friendsand I wanted to tell this time
where it got overshadowed by theAIDS crisis, but there

Yeah.

a time right before it that was really a lot
of fun and we were really freeand like gay Liberation had
opened the doors for all thesepossibilities, and we were like
checking him out.

Yeah.
It's I certainly haven't read alot where it, where the story
straddles a significant amountof pre aids, And something like
Larry Kramer's, the Normal Heartis really about.
Activism.

(18:05):
I think so much of what I haveconsumed is about activism.
Whereas this we really get aninsight to these humans and what
it was actually like to not knowwhat the hell was going on, and
just living life, so you see allof that in the story?

Yeah.
And that I felt like it, ourlives were being overshadowed by
aids and like the big headlineof AIDS and the horrors and.
And yeah, the, it was really aright before that, it was a lot
of fun, but it was also thiskind of magical time, even in

(18:45):
the early days of aids, becausewe were depending on each other
and really we didn't haveanybody else to go to, and
nobody knew what to do, so wewere figuring it out and not
figuring it out, and everybodyhaving nervous breakdowns and
stuff, and, but also there was alot of love.
That was the big thing.
There was so much love

and you were saying that it's this, I'll say
this character, Joe, I won't sayyou the Joe really embarks on
this journey that I would arguesome of that impetus is to see
that he's not alone.

Yes.

And that was so important.
What did that for you?
What made you feel like therewere others like you out there?

I think just like news reports and magazine
and I would see see things on TVand, there would be movies about
runaways and there was a bookwhen I was in high school called
Go Ask Alice.
And it was this girl who ranaway to San Francisco and she
got mixed up with this couplewho had a boutique and they

(19:50):
hired her there and then theystarted giving her drugs and
they slipped her LSD and shestarted like having sex and
taking a lot of drugs.
And I think eventually she goesback home.
That book and Zelda, thebiography of Zelda Fitzgerald,
those two, like almost everygirl in high school had it in
their pile of books.

(20:11):
They, it was, go ask Alice andZelda.

So those were like.
Ways for, well insights and waysfor you to almost fantasize
about another world.
Do you have a moment where yousorta where it was in the flesh,
where you're like, wow, here Ifeel connected.
I feel like I'm with my peopleand I don't even necessarily
mean gay or queer people, but,there's a vibe later in the

(20:36):
book.
Joe, the character, Joe, the,you talks about, revisiting home
after leaving and how you don'treally connect with those people

Yeah.
Yeah.
There, there was a neighborhoodin Kansas City.
I.
Where, I think it was calledWestport, and it was like, like
the hip, it was like hippieswere there, but it was post
hippie.
There was like a vegetarian cafeand but it was a place where
they had like foreign films anda theater that played foreign

(21:07):
films, but it was and clothes,you could get like interesting
clothes or something.
But there was that littleneighborhood that I saw that
there was a life and it wasright next to the Kansas City
Art Institute.
So I, that's, I wanted to bewith those people.
And then, so somehow I knew thateach city had a little
neighborhood like that.
If I could find that, I'd beokay.

Yeah.
I love that.
Do you remember going to a gaybar for the first time?

Yeah.
Yeah.
That was in, in New York, it wasthe ninth Circle.
And that's I talk about it inthe book that this guy picks me
up and it turned out he was thedoorman at the Ninth Circle.
I didn't know it at the time,but yeah, and I actually, that's
all, most of that's true.
I met I talk about this guy whocame up and was like dancing

(21:57):
with a a scarf or something, andthat was Taylor Mead from, he
was like an Andy Warholcharacter.
Eve Song, Laron actually triedto pick me up, but I didn't
believe it was him.
And, and then I saw pictures ofhim later and I was like, oh,
yeah, that's the guy.
But

oh wow.
How funny.
What?

but it was like a hustler bar mostly,

Oh, interesting.
Do you remember life pre gay barand post gay bar?

I got this tour of Greenwich Village and he
explained who the differenttypes of gay guys were and why
they were dressed the way theywere.
And but yeah, that, I think thatkind of was the changing point.
And what, when I did go back toKansas City and then my friend
Ali in the book he came back.

(22:44):
He had, I think he had been inEurope or maybe India.
Like I, I traveled around theUnited States and he went and
traveled around the world.
But he came back and he took meto.
The gay bar in Kansas City.
The, there were three or four of'em, but the cabaret was the big
one.
And upstairs was for women anddownstairs was for men.

(23:05):
And and that I had no ideabefore that, I grew up in the
suburbs there.
I had no idea there was a gaybar in Kansas City.

Like right under your nose.

Uhhuh.
Yeah.

That's so

We started going there, but yeah, that was,
that, that trip was the changingpoint.
Yeah.

Yeah.
How do you cope or did you cope,or I guess still cope with sort
of the concept of everythingchanging but nothing changing?
I feel like.
me, reading your book now, asI'm sure you have recently, you
know, Looking back and thinking,wow, everything is different and
yet everything is the same.

Yeah.
I keep, I started rereading itjust recently.
I've, over the years I've readparts of it or I've done
readings and events where Iwould find a chapter to read.
But this is the first time inyears that I started at the
front first page and read it allthe way through.
And I'm halfway through the SanFrancisco part right now.
But I keep thinking that it thevoice in my head is still the

(24:08):
same.
Like a lot has changed and mybody has really changed and
that, that's been hard to getused to.
It's like I keep thinking that Ilook different and I look in the
mirror and I'm like, oh my God,what happened?
Where'd it go?
But Charlie told me like I wasgetting upset about our
neighborhood changing.
'cause now there's lots oftourists and it used to be, it

(24:31):
was.
I gave, when I first moved hereand then it got really gay for
most of the nineties.
It was like it almost in so muchlike we stayed inside'cause it
was so intense and,

it was too gay.

yeah.
Yeah.
But, and then that went away andthen all these tourists started
coming here'cause of the highHighline and Chelsea market and
the Whitney museums, and Ireally hated it.
I really didn't like the change.
And Charlie said, he goes, it'sNew York.
New York is always changing andyou know that you just have to
accept it and calm down, and soonce I took me a while to adjust

(25:07):
to that.
And now I'm like, okay.
Like even, like right now, baggypants are in like the kids are
wearing baggy pants and Irealize this is my third go
around with baggy pants,

is it?

Yeah.
Uhhuh.

Oh, how funny.

When I first got to San Francisco, the baggy
pants came in and like they'remore like painter's, pants and
things like that.
Work pants, but

Are there other things like that where you're
like, oh, here we go again.
This is, been there, done that?

yeah.
Mustaches, that's, yeah.

It's funny you say that because I don't know, a
little over a year ago hadtrimmed my beard and then had a
predominant mustache, and thiswas before this new wave of
mustaches were back, and thenall of a sudden everyone was
just sporting the mustache.
And I was like, no I've neverbeen ahead of the trend before,
and it was this, and I'm like,all right, here we go.

(26:00):
We're circling back again.
I'm happy about it.
All right.
How do you feel about it?

Now I enjoy it.
And like early on, like in, inSan Francisco in the late
seventies, early eighties, therewas this, the clone look, and
they had every all the gay guyshad, not all the gay guys,

Yeah.
Yeah.

The style was Yeah.
Stereotype.
Yeah.
And it was like a uniform wherethey had a mustache and Izod
shirts and tight jeans, and itdrove me crazy and I just, I
hated it.
And I just and it, I got itthat, it was, they were
rebelling against the hippielook that was so all over the
place and stuff.

(26:38):
And also like having anidentity.
If you looked at them, you knewthey were gay and they were like
out, and.
So I got that but I was like a,like maybe a generation behind
that at coming after them, andso I was starting to rebel from
that look.

Why did it drive you nuts?

because I thought that everybody looked
the same and I thought I wantedpeople to look different and, I,

so interesting.

yeah, I wanted people to like, think more about
how they looked.
I guess they did, but

Yeah.
And that's, I've clearly grownout the rest of my beard now,
and I'm, it's like a littleitchy and I want to shave it,
but I'm like, no, everyone hasthis stupid mustache right now.
I can't go back to my mustache.
Look, I need to wait a littlebit for it to cycle through
again.

Yeah.
Now it doesn't bother me like itdid back then, but I still
prefer not mustache, butsometimes I see a guy and I
think he looks really sexy withit, so

Yeah.
I like to think that I look goodwith it, but

Yeah.
Yeah.
That's what's important.
Yeah.

It's funny, when I was a kid.
Every once in a while my dadwould shave and just have a
mustache and I thought he lookedterrible.
So I was like, if I look likethat, I need my husband to tell
me because that is not okay.
Oh my God.
I know.
I'm thinking about, I'm curiouswhat that will be for me.
What will I clock and what willwe cycle through?
I guess it's my second term,second round of baggy pants too.

(28:04):
When I was a kid, baggy pantswere in and it was like nineties
clothes are in right now, whichwhy, I don't know why they
weren't cute then.
They're not cute now.

It's funny.
Yeah.
And like in the eighties, I wasin the sixties clothes, and the
guys that were older than mewere like, why are you wearing
that?
I hated it then, and I hate itnow.
And

I guess that's just what we do.
We're so boring as humans.

Uhhuh recycle.

I'm so curious to know.
This book is, it's a travelbook.
It is a journey book, but somuch of it involves hitchhiking.
And you obviously, again,started as a memoir.
You clearly did a lot ofhitchhiking.
And it just so happens thatliterally the day before I
started reading this book myhusband and I were driving
through the mountains and we sawa hitch, a hitchhiker, and I

(28:54):
couldn't, not that I couldn'tbelieve it, but it seems so
retro.

Yeah.
I know.
Yeah.

Like?

The time I just assumed that it was okay.
I didn't think that much aboutit, but I know like older people
were worried about me, like myparents and my friend's parents
were.
But, I was there, it was thevery tail end of it being safe.
Not maybe within a couple ofyears after I did it, like

(29:22):
people started getting murderedand stuff and I had a

far as, it might've been very

Yeah.

then too.
We just didn't know about it.

And that's when I I was reading the book
and I was like, oh my God, I was17 and I was standing out there
in like hot pants.
I had like shoulder length hairand sometimes like guys would
pick me up thinking I was agirl, and they'd be disappointed
when I got in.
And yeah, angels were watchingover me or something.
I don't know.
It was,

You were in a pink bubble that you didn't

yes, I, exactly.
Yeah.

Were there, obviously there are stories in
the book about, about what ahitchhiking moment turned into
and interesting people that youmet.
Are there things that happenedthat aren't in the book that.
That were formative, that werememorable to you?
Sort of a general experience,where were people?
The nicest, I don't know.
Just thinking about, I think Ihave this aspiration of wanting

(30:13):
that to be an interesting thing.
Again, not that I don't everwanna pick up a hitchhiker.
I don't ever want to hitchhike,but I love the idea of meeting
new people, accidentally.

Yeah.
A lot of people were just reallynice and some people were lonely
and wanted to talk.
That was I listened, I heard alot of people's stories when I
did it.
And one time I met LorettaLynn's illegitimate daughter.
And we hitchhiked together for awhile, like through, maybe
Northern Georgia and theCarolinas and up towards DC and

(30:45):
yeah.
And she had a, and she was justcrazy, a crazy, I don't know,
but she believed that she wasLoretta Lynn's illegitimate
daughter.
And she showed me a, she said,did I wanna see a photo of her
mother?
And she got her purse out andher wallet or whatever, and she
had a newspaper clipping with astory about Loretta Lynn.

(31:06):
And I thought she was gonna havea photo of her mother.
And it was just, and I was like,that's when I realized, oh,
this, she's not her realdaughter.
And you,

Oh wow.
That's a great story.

yeah.
Yeah.
And I was looking for it in thebook and I was like, oh I pulled
that out.
I forgot.
But this young guy, like reallycute guy, had a white pickup and
he picked both of us up and shewas in the middle and I think we
were drinking beer and just.
We had to get out and he said heneeded to rearrange stuff in the

(31:38):
bed of his pickup truck.
We got out and then she got backin and then they closed the door
and drove off and left me on theside of the road.

Oh my God.

yeah, and I thought, I thought, oh, maybe
something's gonna happen herewith the three of us, and, but
they weren't interested in me.
Yeah.

Would you have been open to that?

Oh, sure.
Yeah.

Yeah.
I can't remember if it's thecharacter of Joe or someone else
in the book, but someone istrisexual, meaning that they'll
try anything once.

yeah, Ali, yeah.

Yeah.
Was that true for you?

I ki yeah, it was, but not like Ali was.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He was definitely like he wasseriously bisexual.
At least he, he.
He, it's not like he eventhought about it.
He just liked having sex and heliked people and it was all fun
or all, all okay.
And he like had a girlfriend andhad a boyfriend and, and there's

(32:33):
a story in there where he andour friend Kat, the three of us
have a little fling and or partyor whatever and, but yeah, he
used to brag about it.
He's I'm trisexual.
I'll try it once and if I likeit, I'll try it again and again,

yeah,

can I tell you one more story

Please, yes, I'm obsessed with them.
I.

the first guy who picked me up, this is in
Kansas City, and I was 17 rightoutta high school, and I wanted
to join the Divine LightMission.
There was this like 18 or19-year-old guru who had like a
jet and lots of money and stuff.
And he his ashra was in Denver,so I was gonna go there and join

(33:15):
that.
I, somehow I got into meditationor something, but I got to
Denver.
Oh.
Anyway.
I wound up going to Boulder andI wound up at the Naropa
Institute, one of the, theirfirst parties.
And I didn't, I found out later,like years later that I had been
at the Naropa Institute, liketheir year anniversary party or
something.
But the guy, so the guy whopicked me up the first ride took

(33:39):
me to, from eastern suburbs ofKansas City to the middle of
Kansas.
And we talked a lot, but he wasa musician from Nashville and he
was like maybe 30 or something,and he was like an older guy and
he was going to up to Nebraskato go see his girlfriend who had

(34:01):
broken up with him because hewas on drugs and he quit doing
drugs and was sober and wasgoing to get her and proposed to
her.
And, he, but he was telling melike he used to hitchhike, so he
was like a real hippie and areal musician.
And he showed me his tracks, heshowed me his arm and he had

(34:22):
tracks on his arm from shootingheroin, and he was like, you
gotta be careful.
Be really careful.
And it was, I just, I'm alwaysamazed that he was the first
person to pick me up who wasreally like, watching out for me
and giving me, it was like a bigbrother just telling me about
his experience and how, thingscan go bad if you don't watch

(34:45):
it.

Yeah And maybe something in that stuck with you
and that is why you're heretoday to talk

Yeah.

Are there other fun memories that you have that
didn't make it into the book, do

Oh yeah.
Plenty.
Yeah.
The reason I wrote like a lot ofdetail about sex was at the
time, the gay books I wasreading.
For the most part.
There were some, like city ofnight was more like realistic or
whatever, but they would get upto the sex part and just change
the subject or go to the nextchapter.

(35:17):
They, it'd be really erotic andthere'd be a lot of tension, and
then all of a sudden they weretalking about something else and
I just, it drove me nuts.
And I was like, why did theykeep doing that?
And I knew part of it was theywouldn't get published if they
actually told what they weredoing.
So I was just like, I have tolike, go beyond that point and

(35:39):
let people know what happened

Tramps Like Us is certainly a nod to the song Born
to Run.
Do you, does the statement Bornto Run, does the concept of
being born to run resonate withyou?
Is that sort of where that comesfrom?

exactly.
Yeah, that's because I like, Ilove pop music and I, all
through the book, I tell youwhat song I was listening to,
and it lets you know what thetime period was too.
If you know the song, what wasgoing on with you.
And when I was in Florida at thebeginning of the book, Bruce
Springsteen was just starting tocome out.
And I actually, I met this kidand we were in, it was in

(36:19):
Jacksonville Beach, and I wasstaying with my sister and he
was staying with some, hisbrother or something.
But we would meet every day atthe beach and we would hang out
together and I wasn't even quitesure if I was gay then, or I was
like fighting energy orwhatever, My sister's roommate
asked me how my boyfriend was,and she was talking about this
kid that we met.
And, we were just like being, Iremember being in the water and

(36:43):
shoulder up the water up to ourshoulders and we were bobbing up
and down with the waves and it'slike something was gonna happen
and I felt, it felt like it andwe both just had to stop it.
We both got scared, but he wasfrom New Jersey and he was
telling me all about BruceSpringsteen and how, which
albums he liked.
And the Born To Run album justcame out then,

something that we haven't exactly talked about yet
is, the real history is that thebook you moved, you finally
moved to New York.
You were explaining to your newfriends in New York about what
life was like prior to gettingthere, and that was maybe I'm, I
am bastardizing it a little bit,but that's an part of the
impetus of writing the book inthe first place of sharing how

(37:27):
you got there.
You, as you were saying at thebeginning, you pink bubbled your
agent and your publisher, and itdid eventually get published.
It was published in 2001.
You were scheduled to celebratethe launch on your birthday,
which was when?

Nine 11, September 11th.
Yeah.

September 11th, 2001.
And then the book for lack of abetter word, disappeared.

Yeah.

And now here we are so many years later at a
time, I think where we reallyneed, certainly as a younger
generation to experience a storylike this.
What has this whole journey beenlike for you?

The journey of republishing it or the journey
from when it first came out,

I wonder maybe a little of both, right?
I think from the moment ofdeflation, for lack of having
your bubble popped right.

a good word.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I felt deflated.

yeah.
To, to now.
As you said again earlier in theconversation, you're working on
book number two.
So it is no surprise that youhave, not, that you didn't write
another book after this.
So if you can maybe share thejourney of, okay, September 11th
happens, and then life gets inthe way.
And now here we are so manyyears later, the book is back on

(38:41):
shelves with a gorgeous cover.

While I was writing it I wrote it mostly at
this place called the Writer'sRoom that's in New York on Aser
and Broadway.
And it's like a 24 hour kind ofoffice where they have cubicles
that whichever one's free youcan sit at.
And it's for writers and it, youhave to be quiet there.
There's a telephone room whereyou can go and talk and, or you

(39:05):
have to go out into the lounge.
But I would go in the evenings,I worked as a word processing
operator in the evenings at alaw firm, and I went on
disability for HIV and justcontinued my work schedule.
But instead I.
I had already started writingstories and I just, I went to
the writer's room like six, sixnights a week.

(39:27):
I would go there from six tomidnight and just work.
But that was like 93, I think.
And in 95 I got sick for thefirst time with aids and I had
to stop for a little while anddeal with that.
And then I I caught this viruscalled CMV Cytomegalovirus and I

(39:49):
had to do IV infusions at home.
I did them, it was three hoursin the morning and three hours
at night.
So I'd go to the writer's roomand then come home and do these
infusions.
But it was a disease thatinfected your vision or your
eye.
It got in your eyes.
And a lot of people with AIDS atthat time were going blind from
it.
And I was lucky'cause theycaught it early.

(40:11):
And I have.
Blind spots, and I lost myperipheral vision, and after
that my body just fell apart.
I couldn't think about writingand I couldn't even really write
for a while.
I just had all my energy wasbased on getting better or
getting over it.
Then I started like getting backinto it and I had some stories

(40:32):
published and things like that.
And then a couple of years ago Ihad, it was when during lockdown
for COVID and I had RSV that wasa virus where it was almost like
having COVID.
But anyway, I was really sickand she came over and was
hanging out with me and she waslike we have to do it.

(40:52):
We have to get the book out.
And I was like, oh.
When I die somebody might findit and they'll, they'll talk
about it.
And she was like, no, we can'tdo that.
You have to do it while you'realive.
And so she took my, my, my lasttwo copies, my last two extra
copies, and she took it to heragent and she took it to Jackson
Howard, the editor at MCD Press,like slash for our Strauss, it's

(41:17):
part of, for our Strauss.
Her agent gave it to anotheragent that he worked with, fus
and the two of them like I just,I forgot about it.
I just thought, it was nice ofEileen to try and wanted do it.
And then a couple of weeks aftershe, she took it to them.
I got an email from Jacksonsaying he read my book and he

(41:41):
loved it, and would I beinterested in working with him?
And I always, some o otherpeople have talked about, let's
make a movie out of it and stufflike that.
And they get me all excited orgot me excited and then it fell
through.
So I was like, sure I'm open toit.
Let's do it.
But then a half an hour later,then Eloy emailed me and said
he'd read it and he wanted torepresent me if I wanted him to

(42:04):
represent me.
And it was just like, that neverhappens.
And and it's like you, like Isaid, you need an agent to get
an editor and you need an editorto get an agent.
They were, it was kind.
I was like, not, I wasn't inshock, but I didn't quite trust
it that, but I just, I said,just I'll say yes to everything

(42:25):
and see what happens.
And

And now how do you

we are.
I'm, I am actually, I'm happy.
I'm surprising.
Surprisingly happy.
And I wasn't expecting that.
I'm relieved and what, likethis, the book launch at Strand
was amazing and was also like,it was like a celebration, the,
because a lot of my friends werethere and they know a lot of the
health adventures I've beenthrough.

(42:49):
And so it was like a celebrationof that.
But that was a big deal.
But having the book inbookstores all across the
country, and I.
I keep thinking about the kidwho's like me, who is home in
some little town and, reallylonely and doesn't know what to
do and listening to the Spotifyor whatever.

or a gay's reading

yeah.
Gaze reading, listening to usnow.
Yeah, exactly.

Uhhuh.

I know.

Yeah.

and realizing that there's a whole world out
there.
Yeah.
That's what, that's my dream.
Real dream is to reach kids andalso for my friends to be
remembered.
That's amazing.

Yeah.
And I can only imagine, thinkingabout it now, knowing that you
wrote in the writer's room andknowing where you live, the fact
that the strand is this midpointbetween where you wrote the book
and where you live and what amagical celebration, it's, it
couldn't be more

many times I've how many times I've been in
the strand and yeah.
And when I first moved to NewYork, I had a sublet on Bleecker
and Broadway, which is theStrand is at 12th and Broadway.
Bleecker iss basically FirstStreet or maybe second first.
But anyways, right down the, soI end up first, one of the first
places my friend who I subletfrom.

(44:10):
First place You took, or in thefirst week I was there when I
met Eileen and Charlie, she alsotook me to the Strand.

Yeah.

So it, yeah.
So it is

full circle moment.

I know.
Yeah,

And the book is out now.
You have lived such a life, whatyou say, you want to touch the
young versions of you fromaround the country who might be
in a bookstore listening to thispodcast, et cetera.
What do you hope your legacy is?

Oh good.
I hadn't even thought aboutthat.
I guess that the book will bestill out there, hopefully, and
people will continue people whoaren't even born yet will find
it and find, hear about how welived and what we went through.
And that I know it ends on adark note, but I also feel like
it's hopeful too,

Yeah.
It's hopeful.
And I also think, like I saidit's not a book about activism.
It's not an angry book, It's asad book but it's not, there's
no sort of shaking your fist atthe sky.

Yeah.
I'm, it's no judgment.
Yeah.

No, no judgment, no whining.
Not whining is a strong word.
No saying why me, that's notwhat the book is.
It's about these people living.
And frankly, as a person whogrew up in the nineties where
among the first things my mothersaid when I came out was, I'm, I
am just quote unquote worriedabout you.
And I think the subtext wasbecause of HIV and aids.

(45:40):
For me to read this story andGet an insight to how it all
happened.

yeah.

Joe, thank you so much for being here on Gay's
reading.

Yeah.
Thank you.
This was fun.

I'm so glad.
Such a pleasure.
And for sharing the story withus Tramps like us Westmoreland.

Westmoreland Westmoreland.
Yeah.
That's a, you can say it howeveryou want to say it, but I, Joe
Westmoreland sometimes.
Sometimes the accent's on thewest.

but what do you use?
Yours is on the more.

Westmoreland.

Tramps like us by Joe Westmoreland out

you go.

Wherever you get your books.

Harper! (46:20):
Guest Gay Reader time!

Rob, welcome to Gay's Reading.
I'm so excited to have you here.

Rob Franklin (46:25):
Thank you so much for having me.

As my guest gay reader today, I have to know
what are you reading?

So I just started reading.
I have it in my hands a kind oflike advanced galley copy of my
friend Cora Lewis's novellaInformation Age.
It's like the first, it's thefirst, it novella being printed
by Joy Land Editions, which islike a new kind of indie press.

(46:52):
And I'm loving it.
So far I'm like.
About halfway through.
And it's, so Cora is a reporterfor the ap.
She was a reporter for buzzfeedfor years.
I also used to work at Buzzfeed,but as an intern.
As an intern like 11 years

Did you do anything With the quizzes?

I'm trying to think if I made quizzes.
I was working on, like beforeBuzzfeed Food, like fully
existed I was working on thefood desk, but then I could, I
was like doing kind of randomother things and like me and the
other interns would, we would dothese articles all the time
where we would basically justlike talk, talk in like a chat
room and then we'd like printwhatever we were talking about.

(47:35):
But yeah, I was doing, alsosorts of nonsense there as an
intern.
But this book is based on herexperience as a reporter for
Buzzfeed and like really justthat kind of 2010s media
ecosystem of like.
Content farming, but alsowanting to preserve like a real
attention to the news.
There's a sort of almostscattered manic attention to a

(47:59):
bunch of things at once that'swritten into the prose, but it's
also like extremely elegant andlyrical and I think she just
like captures something really.
Interesting about the kind ofway of seeing of the internet.
Yeah.
And like chock full of a bunchof great observations and so I'm
really loving it.

So it's exciting and maybe a little traumatic for
you.

Yeah, I mean, I kind of like, I sort of got, got
out while the, while the goingwas good out of this sort of
like new media ecosystem where Iinterned at Buzzfeed the summer
before my senior year of collegeand I had a lot of fun.
That was that would've been likesummer of 2014, I guess, and was

(48:40):
really like the heyday ofBuzzfeed, where I literally
remember writing an articleabout getting a mosquito bite.
And it got like a million viewsor something where it was like,
you could do that.
'cause just everyone, every likebored teenager was like
scrolling Buzzfeed during whenthey were supposed to be paying
attention in the lecture.

(49:01):
But I even then was a little bitlike, I don't know if this is
gonna last.
And also was the thing that Ilike about writing is like
making sentences pretty, notlike churning out two articles a
day.
And so very like consciouslystepped away from that path.
So

triggering.

it's a bit triggering, but it's also like
nostalgic for that moment.
Which I feel like we'vedefinitely left.

Yeah.
When you say buzzfeed, I, mybrain immediately goes to
quizzes and listicles.

Yeah

That's when I, that's for me the heyday of Buzz
Day of Buzzfeed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And when does that come out?

This comes out mid-July, I believe, July 17th.
So yeah I'm not sure when thisepisode's gonna come out, but
hopefully it'll be like close tocoming

Yes.
This is out mid-June.

yes.
Okay, great.
Happy pride.
Yeah.

Is there anything else that you're reading?
You don't have to be readinganything else, but I'm just
curious.

What else have I been reading?
I've been, it's interesting.
I bet I have been reading a lotof like friends galley.

a lot of books are coming out.

a lot of books are coming out and yeah.
I mean it's totally an honorthat I guess like once, because
I have a book coming out, peopleare like, I am also going to
send you my book.
And so that's been delightful.
I was, I've been reading myfriend Alexis Ochi O's memoir
which is about growing up inAlabama.
And then I also just startedreading Ocean Wong's new book.
I don't know if you've read ityet.

I, it's sitting right there staring at me.
The emperor of

Yeah, I'm excited to, to dive into it.
I listened to his, the New YorkTimes interview, the very
emotional one.
Which certainly made meintrigued to really dig into
the, to the novel.

And then the conversation between him and
Oprah, that just happenedyesterday or the day before.
Also.
Very

Someone was sending me that.
Yeah someone was just, my friendwho's a novelist was like, she
really held his hand the whole

the whole time.

She really, she was really holding his hand for
20

Yeah.
There was a lot of handholding.

Yeah.
If you're gonna meet Oprah,you're gonna wanna hold hands.
That's, I feel like that's thepoint.

Yeah, I'd be wor like my hand would get sweaty.

Yeah, that's true.

to get uncomfortable, I think.

You'd have to let some setting spray

Yeah.
At a certain point it's toomuch.
I don't know.
Maybe not.
I don't know.
I would, I should be so lucky.

I should be so lucky.
I would, yes.
I think I would excuse my usualaversion to long-term
handholding for I to meet Oprah.

an aversion to long-term handholding

I am not really a hand holder.
I'm not really a like physicalaffection person.
That's definitely not my kind oflove language.
And I would say people who I'vedated have definitely observed
that.
Like I'm like casual touchingisn't really my thing.
And my, with my friendsabsolutely not.
Like I, friends of mine havepointed out like I ba basically

(52:02):
don't even hug them.
I'm a very like.
Yeah, I'm not big into physical

Not a hugger

for whatever reason.
I'll give like, you know, a hugwhen I, when I'm greeting

uhhuh

I

there's no like friendly canoodling or anything.

Yeah.
Or like people I feel like, Ifeel like I know people who will
just like cuddle with theirfriends and talk or watch a
movie and that sounds like a,that's a really beautiful image
of intimacy that also gives megoof goosebumps.
So

want to do it.
Would you do, would you wanna dothat with a romantic partner or
No?

sure with a romantic partner that's more
tolerable.

I am so fascinated.
Wait, What were some of your.
Young gay teen inspirations.

Yeah.
I, I.
Literally named this book, Ifeel like in almost every inter
interview.
But the book that kind of mademe wanna write was this book
called Crush by Richard Siken.
Which I think they're doing likea re-release for maybe the 25
year anniversary this year.
And it's a book.

(53:11):
It's poetry.
It's like experimental, lyrical,like prose poetry about a doomed
relationship.
And it has this, just like inthe introduction, the poet
Louise Glick, the first line,the introduction is this is a
book about panic.
The word is never mentioned.
Which I think is a perfectdescription of it.
It has this kind of like panic,urgent feeling about it that I

(53:35):
think just completely capturedmy interest as a 16-year-old or
whatever.

I love that.
And I'm like, I'm fascinated bythis lack of interest in
physical touch and intimacy.
Which I love that it came upbecause we were talking about
Ocean Wong and Oprah.

Yeah

yeah.
I'm, I you're not dating anyoneat the moment, it sounds based
on,

currently not.
I had breakup, went through abreakup in the fall, and then
I've been casually dating,

Yeah,

very sort of like in work mode.

the reason why I say that or why I observe that
is'cause you said, people thatI've dated in the past, like you
made it very clear, like there'snot someone now who's
complaining about it.

Completely.
No, I wonder, I honestly wonderwhat my most recent
ex-boyfriend, he would say I wasphysically affectionate.
I don't I don't know.
I think I've gotten better,definitely not with friends, but
I think in romanticrelationships

This is a safe space.
I'm not judging in any way,shape, or form.
And strangely enough, I, myhusband and I have been together
for 11 and a half years andhe'll go to grab my arm while
we're walking somewhere and I'mlike, get off of me.
I don't let, I don't likefeeling constricted when I'm
trying to like move.
Yeah, that I don't appreciate.
I'll maybe hold the hand for twoor three blocks and then that's

that's all you need.

Yeah.
Yeah.
So I do feel you, I didn't wantyou to feel you're not alone.

Yeah.

you.
I I'm cur I wonder where thiscomes from for both of us.

Yeah.
It's a good question.
Yeah.
Something to dive in.
I also do therapy in this room,so it's

So this,

and we were talking about my relationship to
sex and love this week but no,no breakthroughs just yet.
No breakthroughs

Interesting.
Oh, I'm sorry.
All right, keep me postedplease.

I'll dial in.

big supporter of therapy and of breakthroughs and
of sex and love inrelationships.
Rob, tell me about Great BlackHope, your debut novel.

My debut.

out now in the world at time of this episode's
out is out now.
Do you have a log line for thebook?

Yeah, it's about a black queer 20 something named
Smith who in the aftermath of anarrest for cocaine possession in
South Hampton, must confront hisrelationship to race class
addiction and grief in thedizzying aftermath of his best
friend's mysterious death.
That's my kind of very extendedone

Yeah, no, that's a perfect bitch.
How did the book come to be?

Yeah, I started writing like the first seed of
this kind of, I think literallythe day before my 26th birthday,
like sitting at my parents'kitchen table in Atlanta.
And I was like about to move toBerlin and was just home for a
month and back in my childhoodhome and I sat down and wrote a,

(56:35):
five to 10 pages of materialthat's actually no longer in the
book, but like a kind ofcharacter sketch of this
protagonist Smith, who much likeme, lived a life split between
worlds like the sort of likesouthern black bourgeoisie
background of his parents, andthen the kind of like downtown
club scene of New York.
And then I put it away foryears, until I was in grad

(56:58):
school and like.
Stepping away from a differentproject.
I like picked it back up andkept writing and eventually
zeroed in on the subject ofaddiction as this way to really
like mine all of theseobservations and thoughts and
experiences and frustrationsaround like black respectability

(57:19):
politics basically.
Yeah and that's how the actualplot came together.

I love that.
When I generally, when I'mtalking about, picking books
for.
At the show, I'll read, I don'tknow, 15 or 20 pages just to see
a vibe.
So that I had already done andthen yesterday.
In preparation for thisconversation.
Wanted to revisit that.
And next thing I knew I was ahundred pages in, and as I was

(57:47):
complaining to you earlier I,you sucked me in and I am, can't
wait to get off and finish, getoff this call and finish the
book because no, it's sopropulsive and readable and

I appreciate

so excited for you.

Thank you.
I appreciate that so much.

Something I have been asking everybody in this
time where I think it isimportant to amplify others and
those around us and those welove.
Rob Franklin, if you were to dietomorrow, who would you ask to
delete the search history onyour computer?

Oh, wow.
That's such a good question.
My sister where in a way, I wasdebating between my best friend
and my sister, but I think mysister in part because I think
she would learn a lot about methrough that endeavor.
And it would be we're veryclose, but I do think that

(58:41):
there's like a kind of world ofcuriosities and frustrations
that I don't express to her.
And I think it would be likeinteresting experience in kind
of, yeah, like seeing past thekind of like veil.
And yeah, I think she wouldlearn a lot about me.
I also, maybe I shouldn't adadmit this, but I do from time

(59:03):
to time use chat CPT to exploreto.
Often to like quell certainanxieties.

I don't think you're

provide actual information and also it can talk
you down.
And my sister works in thegovernment and is very, again,
is very anti ai, understandably.
And is like very involved ingetting regu regulation in place
surrounding ai.
And so I think it would be veryinteresting for her to go
through my chat GBT history,because I don't think she's ever

(59:35):
opened the platform which I loveabout her and I respect, but I
have,

I love that, she's not just clicking clear
history.

Yeah.
No she's digging in, she'sclearing one by one.
Yeah,

Yeah, I love that.
And I also love that there's noa parent anxiety or concern
about that from you.
You're like, re you, you want tobe the open book posthumously.

Rob Franklin (01:00:04):
AF after I'm gone.
It's like you dive in.
Honestly.

Jason Blitman (01:00:08):
Hold my hand.
Whatever you want, as

Yeah,

I love that.
We love sisters.
What's her name?

Her name is Amani.

Amani.
We love Amani.
Shout out to Amani.
Thank you for

Shout out to.

clearing our search history for us.
As I said on, I think it'sactually this week's episode my
sisters.
I would ask both of them to doit.
One would not read througheverything.
The other one, a hundred percentwould read through everything,
so

Yeah, I can't imagine not reading through
everything.
Especially I would think ifsomebody asked me to, it didn't
even occur to me the idea thatsomebody would just clear it.
Yeah.
I would also think if somebodyasked me to do that, I'd be like
clearly they wanted me to seeeverything.
There's, I would be, I'd betreating it like a puzzle.

(01:00:58):
I'd be like, there's somethingI'm supposed to be figuring out
about them.

maybe like a mysterious death of a friend.

Perhaps.
Perhaps,

So you're clearly in a genre.
Everyone, go get a copy of GreatBlack Hope by Rob Franklin out
now, wherever books are sold.
Rob, thank you so much for beinghere

Thank you.
Thanks so much for having

day.

You too.
Hi.
Joe, Rob, thank you so much forbeing here.
Everyone, appreciate you asalways.
Have a wonderful rest of yourday.
Have a great weekend.
I will see you next week.
Bye.

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