Katie Kitamura (Audition) feat. Nathan Lee Graham, Guest Gay Reader

Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Gays reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what andwhy.
Anyone can listen Comes we arespoiler free.
Reading from stars to book clubpicks we're the curious minds
can get their picks.
Say you're not gay.

(00:24):
Well that's okay there somethingeveryone.
Hello and welcome to Gay'sReading.
I'm your host Jason Libman, andon today's episode we have Katie
Kitamura talking about her newbook audition that comes out

(00:44):
today.
And my guest, gay reader is theterrific Nathan Lee Graham, who
is currently starring inmid-century modern, where all of
the episodes are streaming now.
On Hulu.
Both of their bios are in theshow notes.
if you are new to Gays Reading,here are all of the things to
share with you.

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Anyway, a yay.
Yay.
Uh, I also just released a newseries called Spill the Tea, my
first episode in that seriesreleased last week with Elda
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She is the VP and publisher ofPenguin Classics.

(02:13):
We get into it about what makesa classic, a classic, which was
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Check that out if you haven'tyet, and also, again, if you're
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Um, but anyway, the world iscrumbling around us.
Happy Tuesday.
Wherever you are coming from,whatever day of the week you are

(02:53):
listening to this.
I hope things are good in yourneck of the woods in your world.
Can you tell I'm a little punchdrunk?
It's true.
But enjoy my conversation withKatie Kitamura and Nathan Lee
Graham,

Jason Blitman (03:10):
Where are you?
Is this looks so gorgeous, thislittle background behind you,

Katie Kitamura (03:14):
just, this is my, this is just the office.
Yeah.
It's very messy.
Yours is much, much

mine is almost too stark.

Do you think?
I think it's very,

I mean, so my bookcases are, didn't fit behind
the little couch that I havehere.
So like I, the books behind you,it's very

I feel you.
I feel like you're very 10 outof 10 on Room.
Room Raider.
Is that what it's called?
I think it, yeah.
You've got, you have the, isthat what it's called?
What is it called?
It's not called Room

I've never watched room Raiders, but I, I
like understand the context.

I can't, it was a kind of Zoom thing, right?
That they would, they would findpeople zoom backdrops and they
would rate them, I can'tremember what it's called.
Anyway, I think you would dovery well in that

Thank you.
I thought room Raiders was athing where like.
It was a dating show and parentswould go into the rooms of the
person that they were on a datewith or that they, that the,
that their kid like was gonna goon a date with and like, looked
at the room to decide whether ornot they should go on a

this real or is this something you invented?

am 99.99, 9% sure this is real.

Because if it's not real, I feel like you need
to copyright it.

No, I think it was on like MTV or something.
There was, it was a terrible,

Oh, oh, I, I just meant the, the Zoom, it
wasn't called room Raiders.
I don't know what it was called.
It was something like they wouldlook at the, your, your zoom
backdrop and you would get like,yeah, they would say like, plant
is good, symmetry is good, coloris good.
Yeah,

Um, I appreciate that.
You too though.
You too.
There's, it's very writerly.
I appreciate that.
It's not pristine,

it's really not pristine.

but that gives you a, a very like earthy vibe.
I.
Ugh.
And your tea, I literally saidearthy vibe.
And you picked up your tea

I know, I know.
My imagining it suddenly becamelike mushroom tea or something
like that.
As you, as you said that

Yes.
And then you're gonna read theleaves.
At the end of this conversation,we're gonna talk about our
futures.

I didn't know that's what, that's what this
podcast was for.
I'm so It's readings and

Katie, welcome this.
That's all this is.
Did you not know?
Were you not prepared?

well, yes.

Also my background, I was, my background
is in theater

Oh,

and I was a casting director for a minute,
so I have literally seenthousands of auditions.
So the, the word audition isvery triggering to me.

I was gonna say, how was, how was, how was that?

Have you ever sat in on one, like in prep for this
book?

I had, a lot of friends who were, when I first
moved to New York in kind of2009, 2010, a lot of my friends
were working in theater in kindof off, I think it's off, off
Broadway is, is a technicaldesignation.
So they were in these, in thesetiny, you know, the plays were
being put on in these tinytheaters.
And, and it wa it was kind ofgreat.

(06:18):
And then, and then, you know,we're all older and I think, you
know, some of them have movedonto to other things, but a lot
of them have kind of slowlymoved up.
They're now the establishment,they're now, now their plays are
on Broadway.
And there it's a kind of, yeah,it's the whole kind, the kind of
whole arc of, of the career hashappened, um, for a lot of my

(06:38):
friends over the last 15 yearsor so.
So it's been interesting,interesting to see.
It was, you know, I, I.
Have in the past done a lot ofresearch for my books, but this
one I think I pulled mostly fromkind of slightly passive
knowledge from that period of

Interesting.
Um, okay.
What is your audition?
What is your elevator pitch for

this book.

Without, you could, it could be like a
sentence.
We don't want to give anythingaway.

Oh, a sentence is harder than like a

I know.
No, you, no.
We don't want a paragraph.

Oh, we don't wanna, okay.

two sentences.

My once in this elevator pitch would be a, a
woman who's in the middle of herlife has her life upended when a
stranger comes and tells her hebelieves he is her son.

Yes.
That's all we need.

Really?
Okay.

That is all we need.
And when I tell you I have a.
You're gonna see me blowing upthe comment sections of all of
these articles getting writtenabout you.
'cause I'm like, y'all arespoiling this book.
Come on listeners.
Don't read anything about thisbook.
Before you go into it, just takethis one sentence and dive in.

It's interesting 'cause I've always written books
where I've thought, you know,I've always said I don't believe
in spoilers.
You know, my books aren't thatreliant on plot in general.
Um, you know, you can find outwhat happens at the end of the,
with this book, it's a littledifferent.
I, I think, I think the readingexperiences may be different if
you know what happens,

Yes.

which is not a event, but is a kind of

Uh, right, right.
It is not about plot.
It's about sort of structure andsort of how things lay out and
play out, which I guess is likesomewhat plot, but it's so funny
because I was going back throughmy notes as I wrote in them and
I was like, oh, now that I knowhow this ended, this question's
irrelevant.
This question's irrelevant.
This question's relevant.

I wanna know what the questions are.

I just unplugged my headphones.
Oh my God.
I was so aggressive about that.
Um, what were some of them?
I don't know.
I can, I'll go back and I'll,I'll, I'll look at them and I'll
DM them to you.

That sounds

Um, but what's so interesting is you, you plotted
out the whole book for uswithout us realizing it as we
went along.
The book has been referred to asa Mobius strip of a novel.
Do you agree?
Do you disagree?
Can you explain what that means?

Yeah, I, um, it's interesting.
I, I feel like all, a lot ofthe, uh, metaphors that I reach
for people have reached for, butI think that I reach for in
particular, are actuallychildren's.
Games.
So like, you know, the, thething where you look at a
illustration and you could see arabbit or you could see a duck.

(09:38):
Do you know this?
Do you know this one?
It's been, look, I feel it's alittle bit like that.
It's a bit of a war shark blockof a, of a novel and that people
see very, very different thingsin it often, depending on maybe
their own preoccupations.
A a little bit maybe.
I dunno.
Um, but, you know, I, the bookis split into two parts that are

That you're allowed to say

Yeah.
And, and that are kind ofirreconcilable in some way,
right?
Like, if one is true, the secondcan not, cannot be true.
And I think the way in which forme it works like a media strip,
is that you can either believethe first half is a stable
reality and the second half is akind of fantasy projection of
the narrator.

(10:24):
Or you could read the book asthe second half.
Is the reality.
And the first half is a kind ofsuppressed, cleaned up version
of something that has happenedbetween the three central
characters.
And so I, I think, I don't knowif it, maybe, maybe a strip
isn't the right image, but it'sjust kind of, there are two
different ways of reading thebook.

(10:44):
I thought a lot about the filmsof David Lynch when I was
writing this book, like LostHighway on Mulholland Drive.
And I think in a lot of ways yougo into those films and you
don't know exactly what'shappening.
And that is,

Mm-hmm.

how you meant to experience'em.
So it's not necessarily criticalfor me that the every reader
kind of reads a book and says,ah, this is what it's doing.
But at the same time, I think Ineeded to have a roles, a set of
roles and a structure in place.
'cause I think if you become,like anything goes and it's a
little bit, a little bit toomuch freedom for me.

(11:18):
Is it right.

Yeah.
Yeah.
That's fair.
There there was one, there's onequestion in particular that I
have and feel that I will askyou when we're not recording,
but I, I do feel like it, itquote unquote gives something
away sort of holistically, butwe'll get to that later.
okay.
The action of the book, let'ssay at the, in part one is

(11:42):
really set into motion by asmall courtesy.
When a stranger holds open adoor for our unnamed narrator
and that sort of like decidedfor her, the doors open and
she's sort of like, well, Iguess I'm going in'cause the
door is open for me.
And that really changes thepath.

Yes, yes.

For the story.
Have, do you have a moment likethat in your life that you can,
that comes to mind where you'relike, oh, this one little thing
really set things into motionfor me?

I'm really fascinated by it.
Moments where you acquiesced hisa situation out of courtesy,
there's a lot of differentcircumstances in which we are
pressured into behaving acertain way because of certain
social rules and, and sometimesthey're catastrophically stupid.
So this is one that I will givewhere I was in a, I was in a
taxi, it was a very, very earlymorning taxi ride to the

(12:32):
airport, I think in Miami.
I'm not exactly sure.
And I realized that my driverwas falling asleep and we were
on the freeway.
And I literally thought, is itrude?
I thought, is it rude of me totell him he's asleep as we drive
70 miles down, down the, youknow, and, and, and I mean, I, I
did and I'm

Right.
Well,

I and everything.
And he woke up and he kind oflike, but, but the fact that
even for a moment I would belike, is that, should I

Right.
Is it impolite for you to

I say something is, is a kind of ridiculous
reaction to have in thatsituation, which is a very, very
extreme version of it, but it'ssomething very similar happens
to her in the scene wheresomebody opens the door, she's
hesitating, should I go in and,and see this young man who is a
kind of troubling character toher in a lot of ways.
She's not really sure if shewants to have any kind of
relationship with them.

(13:25):
Somebody opens the door and kindof nods her in and then in
response to that social cue, sheobeys and she goes inside and a
lot of the book is she's doingthings because she thinks
they're expected of her.
Whether that is kind ofperforming the part of being a
wife or being a mother or beingan artist or what, whatever it

(13:46):
is.
There's of often she's kind ofperforming versions to
expectation and, and it's, Isuppose in a lot of ways in the
novel it's of course specific toher career and the, and the
character as she's.
Been written by me, many peoplehave experienced some version of
that I, I imagine in their lifewhere, you know, courtesy has

(14:08):
kind of compelled them to behavein ways that aren't necessarily
either to their best interestsor or to what they even want to
do.

Yeah, well that, but also just like what happens
when you give into it.
Like if someone holds a dooropen for you and you say, no,
no, no, you first go ahead andthey walk in and a bucket of
water spills on them.
Right?
Like that could have been you.
Right?
So it just like,

yeah, yeah.

and that changed that.
That's a completely differentset of circumstances than what
would've happened if the tableswere turned,

yes.

you know?

I mean, the novel is a little bit of a kind
of sliding doors.
Novel in, in some ways.
And so they're always like that,that moment at the beginning
where like, none of thiswould've happened if I hadn't
gone in, in that door.
There's a little bit of a, akind of element of of, of that.

Yeah.
I have to say, this literallycomes up in so many episodes, in
so many conversations.
As a culture, we need a newreference point.
I think the movie probably haslike a 70% on Rotten Tomatoes.
Like, let's, let's call it anaudition moment.
Let's move it, let's,

that's,

it's like more succinct.
It sounds more interesting.

that's very nice of

So funny.
Okay.
There's a big question of,speaking of courtesy, um, our
narrator was once an expert atbalancing the demands of
courtesy and the demands ofexpectations.

Mm-hmm.

Is that true for you?
Do you have advice on how tobalance those things?

I mean, I think in the particular context she's
thinking about is of her.
So, so the aging of thischaracter was quite specific for
me.
Um, she's 49.
In fact, every time I, I, I, Ichecked, you know, I checked in
several times with various, um,actor friends of mine and, and

(16:03):
really the kind of issue thatcame up the most was her age of
what would be the accurate, likein this very narrow kind of gap
between 45 and 50, there was alot of opinion on exactly where
in that gap the character wouldfall.
Um, which I think has to domaybe with a kind of social or

(16:23):
cultural anxiety about middleage, about female desirability
or sexuality in that, in thatkind of little window.
So, So she's kind of lookingback on her life as a, as a
younger woman and rememberingall the moments in which she
would have to kind of temper herinteractions in particular with

(16:45):
other, with with malecharacters, with males, with
men.
Not male care, not male.
She wouldn't think of them asmale characters.

or, or maybe she would

Or maybe she would,

Well, but that's actually what's so interesting
about it, right?
Like the male characters thatinhabit the world around

yes, yes.
No, that's true.
That's true.
I mean, it was, somebody pointedout to me, um, that both the
kind of male characters who arein her closest to her in her
family orbit are both writers inthe end.
Um, but I think a lot of thathas to do with kind of
navigating the kind of, um,stage when there is, if there is

(17:24):
some kind of undercurrent ofsexual.
Implication between two people.
What are the costs of openingthat door?
What are the costs of keepingthat door closed?
How do you navigate that?
And so she, she thinks ofherself as someone who was once
upon a time, very, very good atthat.
And someone who, once upon atime did that quite a lot and

(17:45):
is, is now kind of moving to adifferent period of life.
And she's looking at her thismuch younger man and, and
thinking about how he is aperson who has, he is not quite
learned how to navigate thatparticular dynamic.

Yeah, it's interesting thinking about it in
a sexual tension sort of way,you know, because I think at
different points in your life,you can, the idea of courtesy
versus expectation can be, Idon't know, just different,
right?
Like, uh, a barber telling youthat your hair looks good versus

(18:24):
what their cut actually is.
Like you expect it to then lookgood after.
I don't know, like it's such asilly thing to think about, but,
but knowing that a woman perhapsmight put her hand on a man's
shoulder as a courtesy balancesout the expectation of him
wanting to have a sexual

right, right, right.

Um, yeah.
I was just like thinking aboutother sort of less frankly
intimidating situations thatpeople could find themselves in.
which leads me to another pieceof the book, which is about the
imbalance of want.

Hmm.

Which I found find super interesting, just
like two people who want thesame thing, can't generate the
same sort of intensity as twopeople who want different or
opposing things.

Yeah.
I think that's a dynamic that inmy fiction, I've, I've looked
at.
A fair amount.
And I've generally looked at itin the relationships between
couples and particularlycouples, either at the start of,
very much at the start of theirrelationship, which is, which
is, um, turns up quite a lot in,in my last book, intimacies, but

(19:29):
also at the end of theirrelationship, which is kind of
where, um, a book I wrote calledA Separation is situated.
I think in this novel it's, itis there between the couple, but
it's really the married couplethat it's at, that's at the
heart of the novel, but it's,it's also really primarily
between these characters and ayounger man who enters their

(19:52):
life, whose own desires arequite opaque to them, I think.
And so in a lot of ways they'retrying to work out what they
want of each other.
They're not entirely sure whatthey want of him either.
And it kind of creates thisinstability where, you know,
they definitely don't want thesame thing necessarily, but then
they do.

(20:12):
End up for a period, I would sayin the second half of the book,
kind of colluding it in, in thiskind of shared desire where for
a moment it's kind of mutually,they want the same thing and
then that dissipates quitequickly.

Yeah, I know.
It's like, it's so funny to talkabout this book in a, in a like
loosey goosey, amorphous sort ofway.

I mean, we could, we could,

No,

yeah.

no.
We're keeping it loosey goosey,Katie.
okay.
This is important.
The Xavier.

up straight now.

I know.
Yeah, me too.
in the, in part one at arestaurant orders a hamburger
and fries and in part two at arestaurant orders hamburger and
fries.
He like, clearly that is histhing no matter where he is.
Do you, what is that, what isthat for you?

You know, I, I, so as the two halves of the book
are kind of in differentrealities.

What is your order?

oh my order.
Oh my order.
I see.
I thought you meant like why orwhy the obsession

No, no,

I would totally

Literally when you go to a restaurant, if
you're, what is your always goto, no matter what state of the
world you're in.

my always go-to order is if they have it, uh,
like a friese salad, like asalad of some kind french fries
and sparkling water.

A salad and french fries.

And sparkling water

the dichotomy.
We love the yin and the yang.

And if I go like to a bar or something, because I
am, I'm allergic to alcohol, soI can't drink.
If I go to a bar, my order is ifthey have food, french fries and
sparkling water.
So it's the same wherever I am.
And if, if I'm in a restaurant,I'll then add something else.
What I really want to eat isfrench fries, but I feel like
you can't go to, you know,there's people who are, have to

(22:11):
make a living off of your order.
And I also don't drink, which isalready terrible for, for your
server.
So, you know, I, I try to addbolt things on.

The way that you lit up when you were talking
about french fries do.
Okay.
What is the, what is your fry ofchoice

oh, you know,

the different variations?

the, it's shoes shoestring, like

Oh, interesting.
Interesting.

Kind of crispy.
So I'm not a fan of the wedges.

Yeah, the wedge or the like steak fries, the
super thick ones.
Um, the, the fries that sort of,they're, they look, they feel
like they have like a seasoningon them, like a texture.
Those are my go-to.
I love

what do you mean a texture?

Mm.
It's not quite like, maybe it'slike extra breading on the fried
portion.
Do you know what I mean?

Like they're almost double fried

Almost double fried.
Yeah,

I know, I know.
The ones you mean.
You know, I think my, I, I thinkin my heart the fries I love are
McDonald's french fries.

Oh, just like the simple,

I, I want the kind of restaurant version of
that.

Yeah.
And I think for me, I want therestaurant version of Burger
King Fries.

Oh, I see.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Or Carl's do, did you grow upnear Carl's Jr.
Was that just a Cal?
I grew up in California.

I live in California now.
I should, and I think I livenear one.
I should go get their fries.
Is that what you're telling me?
Should I go get their friesafter this?

I think Carls Jr.
Had that kind of like slightlytextured exterior as I recall.

I've never had them, but

But you have, you have Carls Jr.
You,

I think I do.
Yeah.

I may, I hope I'm not misremembering.

That's okay.
I'm not really a fast foodperson, but for this, it's
worth,

no.
I mean, I, I no longer am, butI, you know, I was in my, in my
youth.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Anyway, this was important.
I love a waffle fry.

Oh,

Oh,

I mean, I should because it, the texture effect
is very similar to a shoestringfry, but

I listen.
Anyone who is just listening tothis has to go watch the
YouTube.
For, for of this conversationfor Katie's face.
When I said wobble fry,

What did I.

I dunno, but you were offended.

I mean my, my hierarchy of New York
restaurants, some of which kindof little kind of altered
versions of them appear in thebook, but is is is their french
fries.

What's your favorite fry in New York City?

ion

Wait, where's that?

It's in Tribeca.
They just have great fries.
That's, I mean, I, I, it is,they're very, very, very good.
And so when I was writing thebook, when I was, even though
that, that restaurant is not inTribeca, it's in another, it's
in another, uh, it's in thefinancial district.
My head, my mental space justkept drifting towards the OD N
and its french fries.

interesting.
Wait, have I ever been there?

I'm sure you maybe

I feel like the.
Outside is somewhere living inmy mind.
I could talk about fries all

no, me too.
It's, it's as you, as you, youtouched upon my great passion.

Anyway, I look forward, we could go, like, we
could do a fried tour.
No, no, no, no.
Just fried potatoes.
We could do like a sampling.

that would be, that would be so much fun.

I was talking to someone recently about how they
had food at a book event and Iwas like, oh, I've done so many
in-person book events and not asingle one of them has had food
and I.
I'm gonna riot, so I'm gonnatell your publicist that you
need to have fries at your food,at your book events.
You know what, I know thatyou're doing an event with

(26:08):
Raquan who was also a guest ongay's reading.
I'm gonna tell her she needs to,at your event, you guys,

oh my gosh.
I mean, yeah, I, I, I kind ofwanted to ask her advice on
kimchi,'cause I think she knowsa lot about.
The best kimchi

Interesting.
Oh my.
We can, um, so you're, you'regonna write a food blog.
That's where we've decided,

When people say, what's next, I'll say, I'm
launching my food substack aboutfrench fries.

Katie, I would subscribe.
Don't even joke about it.
Um, okay.
This is, it's, it, this is aninteresting segue into a piece
of the book that I also wannatalk to you about, uh, voyeurism
and observation.
That's so much of what this bookis about.
And, you know, I think you or mylisteners might be like, how is

(27:01):
that related to you talkingabout french fries?
The idea of

yeah.
This.

listen, I have a degree in theater, I could
connect any dots you want.
Um, I think just the idea oflike.
What it means that you likeshoestring fries and I like
textured fries.
Like that is an interestingobservation that like that says

(27:30):
different things about each ofus, and we could sort of like
unpack from there.
That was the connection in mybrain.
Is it true for you as a writer?
Are you, are you a vo?
Are you a big observer?

It's interesting because I, um, when I'm not in
the middle of writing a book, Ithink I'm an okay obs observer.
I, I definitely like to, youknow, imagine as I go through
the world, when I'm reallyinside a book, it's like the
world of the book takes over andthat's all I see.

(28:02):
So when I'm kind of deep insidea book, I'll be walking with my
family and they'll be like, didyou see that?
Extraordinary thing, whatever itwas.
And I'm, I'm always like, Imissed it.
I missed it.
I, you know.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm never kind ofapprehending it.
Um,

interesting.
I would've thought it was theother way around.

Oh, really?
Like, like your si senses becomeheightened when

Right, because you're writing, so it's like
what can you sort of devour toput

Yeah.
I mean, I think when the, a bookis going well, almost everything
seems to fall into it in analmost magical way.
Like, you look around andsomething will happen and you'd
be like, oh yeah, that can usethat.
And everything just kind offalls into place.
I can't quite put my finger onwhy, how to express it, but it's
a little bit like the entireworld conspires to make the book

(28:48):
with you in, in some way.
I mean, I think, I do feel whena book is going, I.
Well, a kind of like heightenedsensitivity.
Absolutely.
But I feel that really only whenI'm writing, so when I sit down
to write and I kind of get intothe scene, then I feel like you
know, almost like I can, I got areally terrible, I'm gonna say

(29:10):
it anyway, but I, it's, it'skind of like that, um, you know,
like, you know when Keanu reuseslike in the Matrix and all of a
sudden everything slows down.
He's like, whoa, that'sactually, that's, that's what it
kind of feels a little bit like,everything feels quite slow.
And like you can be quitedeliberate and you can move
through it and, you know, yoursenses are super sharp and then,

(29:33):
and then it, and then it goes,

Well, so what I'm hearing is that observation
skills are very keen in animaginary world.

yes.
Yes.

Which is, that's super cool.
You know, like you could sort oftransport yourself into the
space and see it so clearly.
And when you're walking aroundthe nor the real world, while
you might be missing sort of thebig, crazy thing that your
family's pointing out to you,what you are seeing are the
things that, that are, uh,saying.

(30:02):
I wanna fold into your book.

I think, I think I, I sometimes will see
something and it just touches anerve in some way, and then
it'll, and it'll be somethingthat's really not interesting to
anybody else.
And then I think my brainobsessively circles around that
thing.
And it could be somethingreally, really tiny, like the
way somebody's holding their bagor, or even less than that.

(30:28):
But it, it will stay with me in,in some way.
So I kind of let those thingscome to me as much as possible.
I mean, I never, I, I've neverbeen somebody who has a
notebook, for example.
I've never.

Oh.

Yeah, I've never, I've never kept a
journal.
I've never journaled in any way.
I've never, I don't really makenotes.
I mean, I make notes, butthey're usually like structure
notes or they'll be like,chapter seven, fix

Right.
I basically do nothing.
I sit at my computer and afabulous book comes out.

But like I, you know, I've never, I've never had
like a notebook, you know, myhusband's has, has notebooks and
he has ideas and thoughts thathe writes down in his notebooks.
And that's just never been theway I've really worked.
I've always thought of it moreas a kind of immersion that
happens just when I'm at mylaptop.
And, you know, I, I, I love, Ilove being in the space of a

(31:25):
book.
I really do.
Like I, I I, I, I, I feel in, inmy imagination, it's almost a
physical space that I can gointo and it is a place where I
feel completely.
Free and very content.
Um, it's everything else that's,that's a difficulty.

Well, it's interesting that one of the, one
of the only examples you gave isnoticing the way someone holds
their bag.

Right.

such a specific, uh, physical action.
And in the book there's like anan unsaid conversation of
nurture versus nature.
Uh, nurture is maybe even thewrong word, I would almost say
like nature versus learnedbehavior,

Mm-hmm.

you know?
And if you see someone holdingtheir bag.
In a way that, let's say, ismore ergonomic than you've ever
thought before.
And you start to try doing thatyourself, and you're like, oh,
this actually, this doesn't hurtmy back the way that I'm used to
holding my bag.
There is that sort of element inthe book and, and it made me

(32:35):
think about are we ever our ownselves or are we, are, are our
habits from our surroundings andwhat society puts on us?
Like, is that,

Mm-hmm.

it was just a question for myself as I was
reading the book.
What, what do you think?

I mean, I think I, I think that's completely
what I was, thank you for sayingthat.
'cause that's kind of a, a lotof what I was hoping to think
about in the book is that thecharacters, all, all of them, I
would say not just the centralcharacter, you know, they
participate in all these ritualsand behaviors that are learned,
behaviors that are part of what.
You know, uh, guarantees is thewrong word, but it's part of

(33:13):
what builds a kinda stablereality in life for them, a
stable set of relationships.
And then they kind of like, theystart to wear thin in patches
and they start to get a littlebit rickety and they start to
see that some of these areartificial in some way and that
this kind of, you know, what youcall nature, but this kind of
like it or this, thissubconscious bubbles up and it

(33:36):
really ru pushes up againstthat.
And so, you know, the centralcharacter isn't actor, although
there's never any scene, youknow, you never see her acting
in any way, but she has a kindof attunement to how people
manipulate their bodies or theirmannerisms, or how that's a tool
that people can use.
And at one point, this young manwho has said to her, I think I'm

(33:59):
your child and she believes thisto be impossible.
In the first half of the book,she notices that he seems to
have imitated these smallgestures of her, and it's like a
really, it's, it's like a momentof uncannyness for her where
something of hers has been takenand is being worn by somebody
else in some way.
So I think that kind of hyperattunement to movement, to

(34:22):
gesture to how it's learned, andwe all, we all, you know, very
little of what we do is purelynatural.
Most of what we do is becausewe've learned how to do that.
You know, if you have children,you see that very, very clearly.
The process of growing up is, isacquiring a set of learned
behaviors that allow you toexist in the world and allow

(34:42):
people to relate to you in a, ina normal way.
I think all of the characters inthe novel have their sets of
learned behaviors and then theystart to.
Crumble.
I mean, I guess the other thingI would say is that, I mean, you
mentioned the hamburger andfries and the, the other food
item that's quite important inthe book is, is these pastries,
which the characters are kind ofeating again and again and

(35:03):
again.
And which I kind of wanted totake an almost surreal quality
to them.
Um, but the, the, the, thepastries are, are part of like a
kind of breakfast morning ritualthat the, that the married
couple have.
And it's one that issimultaneously, you know, seems
very benign.
It's like a characters who havetheir moment to check in with

(35:26):
each other, and that's part ofwhat makes him a kind of happily
married couple.
But beneath that, it, it's, it'sgot a much more, I don't know if
toxic is too strong of a war,but there's much more of a
struggle in history there.
The breakfasts are somethingthat the husband at a point when
the central character has

girl, stop giving it away.

But he kind of like

matter why.
They just have the ritual.

the husband.
The husband, yeah.
Kind of at a moment when he'strying to kind of, um,
consolidate their relationship,let's say.
Yeah.
He, he kind of says, let's dothis and let's do it every
single morning, forever.
And so it's, it's at once a kindof source of comfort and it, but
it's also, and it's that one tokind of learn behavior that is,
that is part of the kind oftexture of their married life.

(36:08):
And then it's also this kind ofexpression of, of a want and of
a, of a kind of, um, demand onthe part of the husband.

Which like also circles back to the conversation
about courtesy versus

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

You know, it is expected, but it's a courtesy,
but it's expected.
But what if I don't want to?
Yeah.

yes.

it was overwhelming thinking about what
is put onto us

Right,

from, from marketers,

right.

from social media algorithms,

it's become quite relentless in a lot of
ways.
I mean, I, I think I kind ofhave, I feel a little kind of
torn because on, on the onehand, you know, clearly it's,
it's, it's terrifying and, andalarming the way we kind of have
these set of roles that wewillingly perform.

(37:04):
And, and I think I, I do thinkyou're right with kind of social
media, it is just this kind ofsense that this performance is
perpetual.
Um, and that there's some kindof gap between the reality on
social media and the, thereality reality of, of, of the
individuals.
At the same time, I think ifyou, if you do not know or

(37:26):
unable to perform those.
Roles in some way, then thatmeans a kind of catastrophic
break with social life in someway.
Like, like that those learnedbehaviors are part of what lets
us survive.
It's part of what lets us buildrelationships with other people.
I think without them we would beunder immense psychological

(37:47):
pressure.
I think that, I think that'smeans to not kind of exist
properly in, in the world insome way.
So, in a way I feel like, youknow, the book is, is kind of,
of course critiquing thatconstant performance and playing
to expectation and the kind ofweight that that puts.
But on the other hand, it's alsosaying that's how, I mean that

(38:08):
the, the couple in the middle ofit, they have a, they have a
long and successful marriage andpart of that is because they
have agreed to play these partsfor each other.

Yeah.
Which is really overwhelming.
Sort of in a big picture sort ofway.
Well, well, no, it'soverwhelming because thinking
about it sort of existentiallyuh, uh, breaking down in
audition

Mm-hmm.

It is vulnerable.

Mm-hmm.

It is intimate.
I have, uh, so my job wasworking for a company that
produced shows that touredaround the country for kids that
professional adults were in.
And most of the people that werein these shows were newly
graduated college students.
So a lot of the auditions that Iwas seeing were 22 year olds,

(38:58):
fresh out of college from someof the best musical theater
schools in the country.
And I'm watching these youngpeople audition and first of
all, an, you know, you're, youreally are, are showcasing this
intimate side of you to a, aroom that is designed to judge
you.
Um, but also I've seen peopleaudition.

(39:21):
Who were I?
Absolutely incredible.
Some of the most talented peopleI've ever seen.
And for one reason or another,the job wasn't right for them.
And you know, now they're livingin Tucson making pottery and

sounds not bad.

but No, no, no.
Which sounds not bad, however,but, right.
Which is great.
But there's something veryinteresting about the, the
performance element of it.

Mm-hmm.

It's vulnerable.
It's intimate, but it's alsoephemeral.

Mm-hmm.
I mean, you know, I think when Iwas thinking about the title,
you know, as you know, there areno, strictly speaking, there are
no auditions in like, there areno.
Theater auditions in the novel,but the entire novel is
characters auditioning for eachother to play certain parts in
their lives.

(40:12):
So it is, it is exactly all ofthat kind of vulnerability and
all of that intimacy, but likealmost times 10.
'cause it's your, it's yourlife.
And I think that is whathappens.
You know, we, I mean, what,that's what dating is, is a
terrible way.
But like, even with friendshipsor all, all, all of this is,
it's a, you're kind of being,you are incredibly exposed and

(40:34):
you're saying to somebody, doyou want me to be this for you
for a long time?
And they might say yes, or theymight say you're great, but no.
And um, and it was, and it's, II love, but I loved what you
said about it being ephemeralbecause that's, that's really, I
think that's something I'mreally interested in general in

(40:56):
fiction, is these kind ofmoments of.
Alchemy where as you say, it'slike intimate and it's
vulnerable and it's can, theycan be brilliant and it can be
real, and it can be all, like,everything that you want from a
piece of, of art.
And then it just kind of goesaway.
And it's almost a magical space,whether it's a space of a
theatrical stage or like in myprevious novels that, you know,

(41:17):
I've written about,international tribunals, and
that's the kind of space of thecourtroom.
I've, I've written a novelthat's set in the world of
support.
It's like the, the, the settingof like a ring.
All of these spaces are thesekind of magical spaces where
something can happen that isauthentic, that is completely
real, but at the same time ithas all the artifice of an

(41:37):
audition.
It is like ephemeral.
There's a timestamp on it.
You're doing this incrediblyintimate thing for strangers.
There are all these rules andstipulations and referees in the
ring or judges in the whateverit is, you know.
stage lights, all of it.
You, and yet in that moment youhope, you touch upon something
real and then it's, it's reallygone.
And that's the nature of so muchart, I think in, in general.

(42:00):
But the audition, the kind of,the vulnerability is even more
than in simple performance.
It is, it is.
There's a kinda yes or no inthat word.

yeah.

Were you the one saying yes or no?
Yes.
Oh

Right.
Well, so, and, and that's partof the crazy thing, right?
It's like that, okay, they're,they're now making pottery in
Tucson and they're living awonderful life.
But I'm the only person that sawthat in that room that day.
And that's what I find sofascinating.
And the fact that you were, thatyou were talking about, uh,

(42:41):
these sort of perpetualperformances, what is startling
to me is that performances areephemeral.
And so does that mean that we'relike performing until we die?
Does that mean, you know, therethen you, then I sort of fall
down the existential crisisrabbit hole.

Don't, don't fall on the crisis.
But I mean, it's interestingbecause you asked about
voyeurism, and I think that hasa lot to do with, with this idea
of there's a kind of performancethat you know is happening and
then there's performance thatyou, it's a little bit more
veil, but it's still happeningin, in, in your life.
I think that's why I, I love theidea of, I mean, I, I love

(43:22):
voyeurs.
I really always loved them.
I mean, I really, some of myfavorite films have voyeurs in

You wave to him every morning out the window.

no in, in, but like, you know, the, um, yeah,
yeah.
But you know, Kyle McLaughlinin, in, in Blue Velvet.
Um, Jimmy Stewart in Vertigo.
There are so many great filmmoments when somebody is
watching somebody, often a manis watching a woman, and it is,
it feels unbelievablytransgressive and frightening in

(43:59):
some way.
And, and yet that is, that, thatit is a kind of, that is what,
that is the closest that thesefilms can come to representing
what the audience is doing.
You know, when, when you seeJimmy Stewart in Vertigo
watching Kim Novak, that's, youknow, you're made to confront
the fact that that's what you'redoing as well as an audience

(44:21):
member, that that's yoursubjective position is, is this
guy who is stalking and creepilywatching, watching this woman,
you know, who, who, as it turnsout, knows that she's
consciously performing a partfor him.

Right, right.
And, and you're right.
As the audience, you areequally, you are an equal
participant.
back to auditions for auditionsand performances.
I believe, and I think a lot ofpeople would probably agree,
even if they don't realize thatthe best performance, or
something that makes the bestperformance is honesty.

Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

Because when you are being true, when you're
being real, when you're beingauthentic, whatever that means,
under the circumstances, it'squote unquote believable.

Mm-hmm.

And in turn, it's the best performance.
So it is this crazy cycle of, itis a performance, but it's also
honest because it's believable.
But it's a performance, but it'san audition because you want
approval.

Mm-hmm.
I totally agree and I thinkit's.
Something that it reallyfascinates me and, and I wrote a
little, there's a little sectionof the book that is really, I
think about on one level whatyou're talking about, which is,
it's a little story about a,it's kinda sidebar a little
story within this story thecentral character is remembering

(45:50):
an actor that she agreed to workwith who had done, turned in
this kind of extraordinaryperformance of a character who's
kind of lost in his life and,and is, is at sea and is trying
to work his way back to kind ofreconstituting his life.
And then after she agrees towork with him, she's told that
in fact he has dementia and hewas unable to remember any of

(46:13):
his lines.
And so the reason he's kind oflike looking so lost is'cause
he's looking literally with ascrap of paper with, with his
lines written on it and it kindof.
Opens up this dilemma for her,where on the one hand it's too,
the performance isextraordinary.
And the reason it'sextraordinary is because it's
authentic, because it touchesupon the real thing.

(46:36):
But at the same time, knowingthat it is actually the thing
itself makes it almostunbearable to her.
It's interesting to think aboutauthenticity and performance
because on some level I think weneed the guardrails of knowing
that it is artificial in someway in order to feel that, have
access to that authenticity.
Because if it were the thingitself, then that would be too

(46:58):
much.
That would be ethically socompromised.

Yeah.
I mean this just like, is thatwhy we put on clothes every day?
No, but I'm serious.
Like we're literally not nakedbecause we need the guardrails
and like this is all artifice.
It's literally, you know,handmade or factory made or

(47:22):
whatever.
Um, because otherwise it wouldjust be too much to bear.

I mean, it's, it like, why do we care so much
about clothes?
Like what, you know, like falike fashion, like why, why do
we, why do I care so much aboutwhat I'm dressed in and, and
what I look like?
It, it, it, it's, why, why is itso hyper-specific?
The kind of way people are, aredressed, which it often is, and
it is all coded to certainidentities that we're trying to

(47:49):
present to the world.
And, and why does that give usso much pleasure?
But also why does it make usfeel protected in some way?
Right?
So like, like if you're dressedin the way you want to be
dressed and you feel good inyour clothes, I, I think you
feel armored.
That's the link.
Especially women often use thislanguage, but they talk about
feeling armored against theworld.
What is.
Why does performing a role orwhy does slipping into a costume

(48:12):
give you that sense of armoring,I think is is an interesting
thing to think about.

Well, and it's also interesting to think about
like the character that you'replaying,

Hmm.

a doctor wearing a lab coat,

Mm-hmm.
Yeah.

you know, uh,

yeah.

podcaster, wearing headphones.
You know, like

Yeah.

there's, there's sort of this, it's it's
expectation, but it's also.

I mean, it's authority.
You know, you have yourheadphones, so therefore, you
know what I mean?
No, I mean, but you have like,all it's, it's, it's the
apparatus that kind of, it, itkind of is, is, is meaningful, I
would say, not only to the worldat large, but also maybe to, to
us as we're playing, playingthese parts.

Right.
You know it's Right.
So it's there.
Is that like, are we alwaysplaying a part?
Is it always performance?
Do we ever have that moment ofintimacy with ourself where we
see something that's quoteunquote true?
But if a performance is so good,does that mean those are moments
of honesty?

(49:27):
Listen, we could go on and onand on all day, but also, so
like, here's a big question.
Is everything inevitable?
I.

Oh, in life?
No, don't that.
No, don't say that.

I, I didn't say anything.
I just asked a question.

How do you mean?

in the perpetual cycle of life

yes.

are are things inevitable?
Are, I mean, and maybe, maybethe answer is we all die, so

Yes.
Yeah, I was

like how we get there, it's sort of irrelevant.

I, yeah, I think death is, is despite, you know,
the Silicon Valley folk who, whowould, who, who I think are
hoping it's not inevitable.
I, I believe it remainsinevitable.
Um, uh, yeah, I guess that senseof a horizon is inevitable.

I think the book in particular, especially going
back through my notes from thebeginning part of the book, I
was like, oh, this ending wasinevitable.
Just like in life, the ending isinevitable.
The next steps are inevitable,right?
Like, it's sort of just thejourney that we're on and that

(50:46):
was a, it just, it was a bigquestion that the book made me
think about.

it was, it's, it's, I mean, it's interesting
that you.
You say that because I think I,I think one of the things that
I, I hope to try to do in the,in the book was that when you
reach the second part, there'dbe things in the first part that
would kinda make sense or thatyou would see in a different way
and that would reformulate yourexperience of that, those first

(51:10):
pages that would kind of bind ittogether in some way.
And I think, I think when you'rewriting a a book, you, you need
things to feel inevitable in, insome way.
You need to feel like you aremoving towards a destination
that could not be any other way.
I think obviously the reality iswith any book and a million

(51:32):
things could happen, but it'sinteresting inevitability in
terms of art making or makingwriting something.
I don't know if you experienceit this way, but like when I.
I start a piece of work, it'slike always the best moment
because it's, I feel likethere's a limitless kind of
plane and like it's, the bookcould occupy any of this.

(51:55):
And then as you write, it gets,like, it gets smaller and
smaller and smaller, and thefield of play gets, gets
necessarily as the thing becomesitself smaller until it's just a
book and that's it.
And, and then it does feelinevitable that you've been
moving towards this destinationwhere everything, you know, all
this kind of freedom that youhad and all of this possibility,

(52:18):
which is in a way why I thinkeverybody writes just becomes a
finite narrative.
And that is all it is.
I think that's probably why inthis book, I wanted to write a
book that had more than onenarrative possibility because I
think that sense of closure issuch a saddening one for me as
a, as a writer.
And I thought, what if you canwrite something where actually
it feels like a continues tostay open?

Yeah.
Well it's so interesting'cause Ithink at first what you were
talking about, it made me againjump back to expectations, you
know,'cause it's theexpectations of a reader is that
the book ends somewhere.

Yeah,

So, so it is, so it is quote unquote inevitable,
right?
So it sort of does that thing,but also it is inevitable that
yes, you have the blank page andhow wonderful and exciting and,
and optimistic as a creativeperson, but it is inevitable
that it will be in the hands ofa stranger who then gets to form

(53:16):
their own

A hundred percent.

which is like a lot.
It's a lot,

yeah.
And not only form their ownopinions, but form the book.

yeah.
Right?

You know, I think I, I think with this book
more than any other book I'vewritten, it's, it's very open to
interpretation.
It's really a book that is beingmade by the reader as much as by
me.
And people have, I mean, it's,it's early days, but people have
had very different understandingor interpretations of what's
happening in the book.

(53:47):
Um, which is what, what it'skind of designed to do.
Um,

I dunno if you're a good reads reader, but they
have the good reads.
Reviews have been cracking me

Oh, really?
No.
I, I can't look it.
I

Yeah, no, that's okay.
But it's a, it's a prime exampleof the number of interpretations
a book can have.
Katie Kura, thank you so muchfor being here.

thank.
This has been such a delight andI hope we can meet for,

Oh, it is going to happen.
okay.
This episode is coming out, nottoday, but happy release day,
mazel tub.
I'm so excited for you.

Nathan Lee Graham (54:23):
It's so exciting.

I diligently watched every episode.

You did.
Oh, I love that.
Did you enjoy it?

I did well, and no one was forcing me to watch
every episode I did it onbecause I wanted to.

This is a good thing.

I know I'm, I, I came out of it with one of the
most important questions that Ithink I need to start asking
everybody.

Sure,

I'm gonna come at you with it.
Who will delete your searchhistory when you die?

I'll do it.
I'll do it just as I'm going,just as I'm going down.

Because you can't trust anyone else to do it.

I'll do it just as I'm going down.
The universe will allow me tohave just, first of all, the
universe is going to allow me todie in a very dramatic
theatrical way, so it won't befast.
It will be with lots of pathosand drawn out.
You know, very ctra Ophelia.

(55:21):
It will be that.
And so I'll have time to take mygnarled index finger and you
know, steady myself

Right, right.

over all of the devices and erase them.
And then that final breath,delete and delete.

Ugh, good for taking responsibility for your
own actions.

And plus, if you want anything done right,
you have to do it your damnself.

100%.
Now I'm like second guessing allof my thoughts and feelings
about this.
I need to rewrite the end of mystory.

See

I know.
Do you have your final line?
Are you ready?

my final line for my, uh, for my death.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like of life.
You sound very prepared.

I know what it'll probably be.
I do know what it'll probablybe.

You don't have to tell me.
We'll read about it in the

I can tell you,

I'm ready,

but I have to change clothes.
That's it.

Nathan.
That is devastating.

Because that's all I do.
All I do is change clothes.

What do you think you will be wearing?

I don't know, but I, I'm sure.

But you know, you'll have to change.

But I have to change clothes and then I'll
die.

Oh, how fabulous.
And tragic, because you won'thave time to do that because
you'll be deleting your searchhistory, right?
Huh?
All right.
Well listen, I look forward tothe movie adaptation.

you very much.

I can't wait.
My favorite fun fact to sharewith you is that I second acted
Priscilla, I think four times.

What

I know I saw it from beginning to end multiple
times too, but I second act backin the day when you could second
act a musical.

so you stole from me

I, yeah, I know.
I, this, I am, these are myreparations.
I'm very sorry.
Right.

Well, you

tickets were, I was, no, no, no.
I was filling your cup withapplause because those seats
were not filled.
I was there.
I was there for you.
It was supporting

well, you know, um, I never saw the show
because I never missed,

rightfully so,

so,

which means I saw you every single time I

yes, I never missed.
Um, and, uh.
All I've ever, all I've everheard is that people felt good
when they left the theater.
So that's, that's a good thing.

I know.
I loved it.
You know, that would be a goodlast line too.

Sure.

missed.

I never missed, oh, that's good.
Well, I want that on thetombstone.

Oh, fabulous.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
I'm gonna, I'm Chris, are youtaking notes?

And I wanna be buried in PA and I wanna be
buried in that famous, uh,cemetery in Paris so that people
have a destination.

oh, are there?
I wonder if there are rules toget in there.

I am sure there are.

We'll find.
We'll find out, and we'll

Yeah, I mean, part of the,

the day,

one of the rules is you have to be
fabulous.
So I check,

Easy, easy.
I love all your merch that youhave on.

yes.
I'm selling the show today.
Well, it's a, it's a show day,so I thought, you know.

The jacket, the shirt, the hat.
Obsessed

be, and it's show day, so, you know, it's,
I'm gonna take it right off, butit's still, it's like, you know,
I'm, I'm, I'm a contract playerat heart, so, you know, it's
just, I, I, I'm always sellingwhatever product I'm in and, and
the show, especially when I'mproud of it.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh good.
I love that.
Um.

shy, if it was shy, I wouldn't give a shit.
But, um, you know,

I'm so excited that you're proud of it as you
should be.
It looked like you were allhaving such a fun time.
I like, don't need to talk toomuch about it'cause I want
everyone to just go watch it.

Yeah.
Go watch

Done

Binge, binge, binge.

now on Hulu.

Yes.
Binge all we can.

Nathan Lee Graham, you are on my guest gay
reader.
I have to know what you'rereading.
You said you have four bookssitting in front of you.

Presently, um, you know, I'm dyslexic, so I
read scripts very fast.
Um, but part of the reason I'min the business is because, uh,
my parents knew that I needed toconstantly read and they gave me
all these tools.
And so, you know, being in showbusiness, um, that was an
immediate sort of like you haveto read all the time and learn

(01:00:04):
how to cold read and get beyondwhatever your ailment was.
So now my dyslexia, of course.
Like I do with anything thatseems negative, I turn it into a
superpower, you know?
So, uh, but I read books slowlybecause I really wanna sort of
revel in the images and themetaphor metaphors and allegory.
And I retain those images muchlonger because I read slower.

(01:00:30):
So this is redundant, but I amcurrently reading Barbara
Streisand's.
Autobiography and I'm reading itand not listening to the audio
book because there's always justa little bit more material when
you read it.
And, uh, like I said before,reading for me is, is um, is an

(01:00:51):
exercise and a skill that I, Ilike to keep honing because of
my dyslexia.
I have mild dyslexia, but it'sstill there.

Jason Blitman (01:00:58):
it's still there.

Nathan Lee Graham (01:00:59):
So that's what

it's as though you knew what I was gonna
complain about

Yeah.
So that's what I'm readingcurrently.

because the audio book is so good.
But I respect your journey

I mean, you know, I can listen to her do it
afterwards, but I wanna read, Iwanna read the damn book and
then Oh, oh, okay.

I was gonna

I'm gonna be quiet.

well, no, be quiet.
The funniest part about theaudio book is I listened on
three X speed and she soundednormal.

Yeah, I, I can't, I'm a very, I'm a tonal
person as well, so there, thereis some sort of, uh, I don't
know if it's some sort of ism orschism or disease, but there are
people who can't, who can't heara certain tone

Yeah.

over a period of time.
It starts to physically.
Fuck with you.
And I'm one of those people thattonally I can't, you know, and
it's not Barbara Streisand, ofcourse, I love her tone, but,
um,

I thought you were gonna say, Barbara
Streisand falls in

yeah, no,

no idea what she sounds like.

she does not.
But what I mean to say is,because I'm always constantly
working with people too.
I sort of don't need someone tobe reading to me unless it's,
you know, like yoga.
So.

Yeah.
Fair.
Okay.

So it's great to, to have the book and I love
having it in my hands, you know?
Um, I am, you know, amiddle-aged black queer person.
Um, what, what would you like totalk about next?

Tell me more of your books.
You said you have four?
I'm,

so after that.
After that, I'm going to bereading The Prophets by Robert
Jones Jr.
Which I've had for a while.
It's just that, you know, I worka lot, so I read more scripts
than anything else.
But my dear, dear friend KarenChilton, who is a voiceover and
audio books extraordinaire,award-winning voiceover artist,

(01:02:59):
she actually read this book, soI might listen to her as well,
uh, because she, but I lovereading it, so I'm gonna read it
and probably listen to her aswell.
I'm also,

simultaneously.
That's a good trick too.

yes, I would love to do it, but then I start
to get into my head about.

Yeah.
Uhhuh.

Oh, you did that?
Yeah.
Um, Daisy Goodwin has she's aNew York times bestselling
author.
She's written a lovely novelabout Maria call called Diva.
It's not too big, it's not toothick.
that's what he said.
And, uh, I, I, I can't write toread it'cause I love everything,
all things Maria Kales.

(01:03:38):
Yes.

And that's the tattoo you have on your back.

Sure.
La Davina.
Uh, and then my dear friend,Ross Rayborn has written a
wonderful, uh, self-help book.
I would say in that, that genrecalled Turning Inward, the
practice of introversion for acalm, joyful, authentic life.
Ross Rayburn,

Oh.

a delight.

And you did say you are more of an introvert.

Yes, I am.
Which is weird because, um, youknow, I, I have such a public,
uh, job, but when I'm not doingthat public job or expressing
myself on screen or on stage,it's nice to just be alone so
that you can recharge.
Right.
Um.

I, when someone told me that being an introvert
really means that you like takethat recharging.
Takes time by yourself and to,uh, recalibrate.
And it's not about wanting to bealone, and it's not about being
shy.
I was like, oh, that makes somuch more sense to me.
You said your dyslexia doesn'treally affect you when you read
scripts or that you were able toread them fast.

(01:04:47):
Why do you think that is?

Only because I practice and only because I
have tools that, uh, help mealong.
And it does affect me.
I am very aware that it happens,and it happens all the time
where a word will switch or theletters will become jumbled.
Um, it's just that.
The way I highlight my script,the way I, I mark hate my, my
script, and the amount of timethat I spend getting it into my

(01:05:13):
body.
And then of course, when Iturned 56 years

10 years from

uh, no, please.
Um,

six years ago, how freaking dare you?

yes.
I'm 56.
I'll be 57 in September.
Um, my.

time from now.

My, uh, my vision, my, uh, vision became
blurry up, up close.
Um, and my mother says that Ihave the best of all stigmatisms
because to see far away isbetter.
So you can run okay.
If shit's going down, if shit'sgoing down, you can run.
And she said also for driving.

(01:05:52):
And, uh, you know, uh, it'sgreat because you can see this,
you can read all the signs onthe freeway and.
You know, so I have the beststigmatism.
I'm, I'm still, I'm stillwinning.

Right.

You know,

I expect nothing less.
You're gonna have the best ofthe things right now, I feel
you.
Um, okay.
For anyone who's been livingunder a rock, can you tell us
what mid-century modern isabout?
I.

it's about chosen family.
It's about a group of friendswho are getting older.
One of their friends dies andthey, they decide on this whim.
One of the friends decides on awhim that we all should come and
live together because our livessuck in our own private spaces,
so why not?
Let's try it.
What do we have to lose?
And then we move in togetheruntil his, into his palatial

(01:06:39):
estate in Palm Springs modeledafter Dina Shor's home.
And, uh, all the mayhem ensues.
And it's just, it's just a fun,heartfelt time, you know?
Um.
You gotta love it.
It's gonna make you feel goodabout yourself.

Mm-hmm.
How this is like such a.
I don't wanna say dumb, but itis such a basic question, but
because it looks like you'rehaving so much fun, what was
this experience like for you?
It's very different than some ofthe other things you've done.

Well, yeah.
Um, it's like a culmination ofeverything I've done, isn't it?
Uh, because

And yet you, you're so at home per

Uh, well, because, because I'm ready for
whatever this is and, um, youknow, you meet the moment when
it's, it's, it's uh, it's anembarrassment of riches
actually, because when you'reworking with a bunch of people
that you are already a fan ofand then they reciprocate that
by saying that they're a fan ofyours as well, it's really a

(01:07:41):
love fest and you get right tothe work.
So it's, what's so funny is, um.
There was a question asked of uslast night at the 92nd Street,
why, um, do we crack up?
Do we break up and, you know,during the tapings and you know,
have to get back on track?
And the answer really was no,because we're also, we're very

(01:08:02):
serious about our comedy.

You're like, I'm a professional.
Dammit.

and we all do.
And because it's already sofunny and we already sort of
revel in the deliciousness ofit, there's really no reason to
crack up because, you know, uh,what we're trying to do with
these things is, is soridiculously fun already.
There's no, there's really noreason to sort of have

(01:08:28):
shenanigans beyond theshenanigans that we're actually
doing.
So, um.
Yeah, it's just a blessing tohave that kind of chemistry.
It is unspoken.
Part of it's because we're allfrom the theater, um, including
the great late, uh, Linda Lavinand also, you know, it doesn't
happen that often, so it has tobe, it has to be said that this

(01:08:49):
is rare when you actually loveand like the people that you're
working with.
I'll see Matt and Nathan latertoday, and we'll have dinner and
it'll be fun.

That's so cute.
I love that.
and I don't think I realized howa, I needed.
A sitcom.

Mm-hmm.
In a nostalgic way,

Yes.
And B, something that is soqueer and isn't about being
queer in the way that we've seenit presented before

well, we're just normal human beings.

that.
That's what I'm saying.
How many times have you seennormal gay people on TV just
living their life?

This is what we are.
Yeah.
And, and we're, and we're, uh,and, and it's generational and,
I hesitate using the word normalbecause it's so bastardized, but
what we, what we're saying aboutnormal is that.
We're not some sort of exoticcreatures from another land.
And you're, you're peering in.

(01:09:53):
No, it's like anyone will lovethe show.
If you love to laugh, you'regonna like the show.
If you wanna feel good aboutyourself, you're gonna like the
show.
So we just happen to be queer.

Well, and I mean, it's, it's not a coming out
story.
It's not about sexcapades.
It's not, you know, it just,it's, it's no extreme.
It is just living

just living.
Just living.
And it's so nice.
You know, um, because withliving, of course, you have the
rollercoaster of life.
So you're gonna have thesewonderful, ridiculous moments,
and then you're gonna have sometragic moments, you know,
because that's what life is.
And then you'll have someheartfelt moments.
You'll have some, you know,scheming, jealousy moments.

(01:10:33):
You're gonna have all of it.
And that's what makes the showso great

Yeah.

because the wonderful writing.

The show, so great.
The, the, your, your final lineof life is gonna be about your
outfit,

Yes, of course

I have to know, do you have a bespoke travel
coat?

I do.

Yes.
Can you describe it for me?
I wanna know everything aboutit.

Well, um, I have more than one.
See,

How silly of me.

I have a Paul

so sorry.

a Paul Smith, um, duster.
Um, that is a divine microfiber.
It is one of the best purchasesI've ever made.
It goes with everything.
It can be dressed up, can bedressed down, you can fold it
and roll it into a ball.
It is the quintessential travelcloak.
Um, it looks good.
All seasons, you know, allseasons.

(01:11:32):
And, um, there are four of thempeople.
And, um.

Four Seasons or four cloaks or both?
Both

la See, I speak French too.
Uh,

you're prepping for the, for the, for your
burial.

yes.
In, in, uh, are we belly?
Uh, yes.
I have four cloaks for, for fourseasons.
But my,

even though they're interchangeable,

My Paul Smith is my favorite.
Yeah, that's my favorite.
A black mi microfiber duster,sorry.

didn't know that I needed a travel cloak until
watching the show.

Well, you actually do.

Now I know.

Yes,

So I had to, I needed to learn more.

and here's the thing.
You can even look like aschlumpy dinka underneath that
coat.
Um, if you don't know whatSchlump DCA is, google it.
just spell it out phoneticallyand Google it.
It's Yiddish.
Uh.
You, you, you, you can look likethat, but if you put a travel
cloak on top of it, you see,well, then it's like, you know,

(01:12:42):
you're on the Concord, it'swonderful.
It's Jet set D.

You're like, I have 12 other interviews after
this, and Jason is Googling lum.

Um, but it's, it, it, it sounds like it, it
sounds like what it is.
You

How have I never heard this word before?
I come from a long line ofJewish women.
How have we.

well, the fact that we're doing this now
is be shared, right?

Yes it is.

just look it up.
I'm probably conflating a lot ofthings, but.

No, it's, it is phonetically, so you, you are,
everything you said is true.
Oh my God.
I'm obsessed.
This is my, I think this is myfavorite takeaway, Schlein.

Yes.
I see a lot of them at theairport, I must

I am sure you do.

and Arthur would not be pleased

No, Arthur needs to be, we need to be handing out
like a, like a QR code of a, ofa website for someone to buy
their

Yeah, speaking of which, that air,
that airplane episode is sogenius.

it's so good.

It's, it's written so incredibly well.

There is also.
One of the funniest moments thatI've ever experienced involving
a date, the food, not, not adate, not a love date, a the
food date.
It is like truly one of thefunniest things I've ever seen
in my life.
And the deli, the delivery,again, I won't say more.
Everyone just needs to go watchit on Hulu.

(01:14:24):
I think it's like episode six orsomething.
Oh my God.
There's singing and dancing andperforming and.
I'm obsessed.
It was so fun.
This is all the, the second halfof this episode is just me
telling you how much fun I had.

Well, I'm, I'm very pleased.
And the thing about it is, it'sreal, right?
This is how real people talk.
I really do sing and dance in myhouse by myself all the time.
I just get up and break out intosong,

What was the latest song?

Um, um, oh, the latest one was, um, I think
I was singing Tap Your TroublesAway From, is that from, um, Mac
and Mabel?
That's Jerry Herman.
Tap your troubles away.
I mean, and I was going into thebathroom doing it right.

That's where you get, that's where the troubles
go

yeah.
And then I, you know, commencedto doing things that you do in
the bathroom.

right?
Wash away your trouble.
Then you wash the man rightoutta your hair.

South Pacific I.

Right?
Yes, exactly.
Okay.
As my guest, gay reader, I haveto know what you are reading in
italics reading.
What do you have?
Do you have a grievance that weneed to hold space for?
There's a lot of terrible thingshappening in the world right
now, and people feel like theycan't complain about the small
things.
So if you feel, if you have asmall thing to address,

Okay.
I will say this.
I don't wanna offend anyone, butI do so get irritated when we
make plans to meet somewhere,particularly I.
In the city of New York, inManhattan.
And then I'm asked this, thisfollow up question.
Well, where do you live?
I it, that's not, that doesn'tmatter.

Mm.

I'm gonna get in a cab, I'm gonna get in a
taxi, I'm gonna get on the bus.

we're going.

Just tell me where we're going.
I don't need to to eat around myhouse.
I mean, we're not in Iowa.
I can get to wherever inManhattan.

No offense to anyone in Iowa.

and hey, uh, yeah, no offense to Desmond's,
but, um, it's just, I don'tunderstand that and, and don't
make it easier for me.
And plus, I'm a Virgo, so I'mgoing to enjoy a menu pretty
much from anywhere.
So that's why I always put theonus on the friend or the person

(01:16:40):
that I'm going to meet up

the enemy

Yes, because I'm not gonna have a problem
with the menu.
I'm not gonna have a problemwhere we sit.
I'm just very adaptable in thosekinds of ways.
But don't follow up with wheredo you live?
What it it I tell you, it getsmy backup.
I'm like, what does that have todo with anything?

Yeah.

when I say to you, I can meet you wherever you
like, wherever you like.
Just pick a lovely place and Iwill be there.
Well, where are you?
What?

Well, I will say as a person who lived in New
York City for many, many years,I would like for to only have to
take one train.

Well then you would preface that,

That's true.
That's

right?
You would preface that

right?

I'm rich, so I can just get on,

Yes.
So you should just say that I'mrich.
I'll go wherever you want.
Because all of my clothes aremid-century modern branded.
They're gifted from Hulu.
I didn't have to pay for myclothes.

I'm rich.
I'm gonna put on my travel cloakand meet you wherever you are,

exactly.
Oh my God.
And if it's chilly out, you'llput on two travel

yes.

We're holding space for, for this simple and
horrible thing while the worldis crumbling around

Exactly.

Right.
Nathan Lee Graham, thank you somuch for being here on Gay's
Reading.

This is so fun.

So fun.
I love that you have four bookssitting in front of you.

Yes, yes.

It's gonna take you about three and a half more
years to finish the BarbaraStreisand book, but that's okay.

Well, you know, what I'm doing is I, I do
it, I read it on planes, andthen I read it when I'm at some
sort of destination.
So I'll be in Fire Island inJune.
I'm gonna read it there.
I'll be in Barcelona.
Um, so I'm gonna take it, youknow, I read it in, in, in big
chunks like that.

Yeah.

The thing is, is that it's

it's such a big book.
Yes, you should.
All the pages that you finish,you should rip out

I should or,

as you go.

or eat them because it's probably quite
fibrous

Yes.
And the story is delicious.
So

and I don't get enough fiber.

perfect.
And again, that's you.
Tap your troubles away in thebathroom after the fiber.

right.

Oh my God.
I can't wait to watch all ofyour things for all of your
outfit changes.

Yes, yes,

a wonder, have a wonderful rest of your day.
Everyone, thank you so much forbeing here.
Truly.
It means so much having, suchwonderful, dedicated listeners
thank you Katie.
Thank you Nathan.
Have a wonderful rest of yourday and I will see you next
week.
Bye.

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