Leila Mottley (The Girls Who Grew Big) feat. Chip Pons, Guest Gay Reader

Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Gaze reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what andwhy.
Anyone can listen Comes we arespoiler free.
Reading from stars to book clubpicks we're the curious minds
can get their picks.
Say you're not gay.

(00:24):
Well that's okay there somethingeveryone.
Hello and welcome to Gay'sReading.
I'm your host Jason Lipman, andon today's episode I have Leila
Motley talking to me about herbook, the Girls Who Grew Big,

(00:45):
and the guest gay reader todayis Bookstagram Darling, the one
and only Chip Pons, AKA booksover Bros.
And he talks to me about whathe's been reading, but also
about his new book, winging Itwith You.
Both of their bios can be foundin the show notes.

(01:05):
So if you listen, then youhaven't missed it.
But in case you have, the GazeReading Book Club is officially
here.
I have teamed up with Altoa tobring you a curated queer book
for just$1 to start.
We're kicking off in July withDisappoint Me by Nicola Dineen.
And each month I will behandpicking a book written by an

(01:29):
lgbtqia plus author, and theirwork is gonna hit that literary
but approachable sweet spot.
I call it, accessibly Literary.
you become a part of thecommunity of readers where we
can all chat online and talkabout the book.
And there are a bunch of little,uh, different chat rooms that we
could be a part of.
So spoilers and no spoilers andall sorts of fun things, and

(01:53):
it's gonna be really great.
And for every subscription I'llstore it donates a book to an
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And with every subscription youget.
A crazy discount on Alto'swebsite, so it's such a good
deal.
The link.
Is in the show notes, but alsoin the Instagram bio.

(02:16):
Uh, go check that out again.
You could start for a dollar andcheck it out and see how it goes
and see if you like it.
And then all the other books areso reasonably priced after that.
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I'm very excited.
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mostly all the things.
Thank you so much for joining metoday and enjoy my conversations

(03:01):
with Layla Motley and chipponds.

Jason Blitman (03:04):
Um, I'm so excited to have you here.

Leila Mottley (03:08):
Yeah.
Excited to be here.

Welcome to Gay's Reading.

Thank you.

I am this and The cover is gorgeous.

Thank you.

We are here to talk about the girls who grew
big.
I Do you use a pop socket?

No, I don't.
I don't have one.
Yeah,

Oh, you have to get one.

I know.
I've heard good

I'm a big fan.
I'm a pop socket user that, thatreminded me I need to put my
phone on Do not disturb.
Oh, I also usually have anotebook next to me.
I'm a mess.

I usually have the book next to me and I don't
know where it's,

That's okay.
I forgive you.
I love, I'm obsessed with thiscover.
Was it painted specifically forthis or was it

this cover was a long journey.
It, this is the 12th draft, likeit was months of back and forth,
and actually my wife found thispainting.

my God.
I love that.

I.
Yeah.
And the artist Ashley, January,she's, she does a lot of art
around like black maternalmortality and motherhood.
And I saw this, my wife showedme this painting of hers and I
was like, it's perfect.

Did you say black maternal mortality?

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah she does incredible art.
I think she's Chicago based, butshe

Oh,

galleries all over the world,

I am obsessed that you're a doula.

Yeah.

How on earth did that come to be?

I don't really know when I like got that in my
head that's something I wantedto do.
I worked as a infant toddlerteacher for a few years in my
teens and and I loved it and Iloved being with the kids.
It's also, I.
One of the most exhausting jobsout there.
And so when I became a full-timeauthor, I like, I missed the

(04:54):
kids and I missed being likesurrounded in this world of
being really present.
Kids make you present, and Ithink similarly like pregnancy
and birth and being in thisspace of people going through
the largest transformation intheir lives is.
Similarly grounding.
And so a year before nightcrawling came out, I trained and

(05:15):
I was certified as a doula.
And then yeah, I've beenattending births mostly like
I've had more time over the pastyear.
When you're a doula, you're on acall.
So you have to be Place, whichis why like right now I'm on a
pause because I can't be oncall.
But I love it.
It is in big contrast to my workas a writer in just like day to

(05:38):
day life.
Writing is so solitary and andsometimes can feel a little
disconnected from the world andpresent reality, like you're
creating a whole other world andit's a based in imagination.
And then to ha be able to reallyground in my work is about
people and I get to be inrelationship to all of these

(05:58):
different people.

Yeah.
And you're also like bringing ababy into the life.

yeah.
It's the craziest

in, in both.
In both senses,

yeah they're definitely Uhhuh.
Yeah, I know each book is such aprocess too, and like

Yeah.

to pregnancy, like it's a long gestation and
then finally like it's just outin the world.

It's like such a, it's such an intense metaphor
that you then live for real.
Yeah.
Wow, that's so cool.
So random.
But I'm obsessed and I'm justlike imagining you being on call
right now and in

Yeah.

being like, I gotta go.

I right now, because I am like, we're about
to hit publication and thenthere's the months post
publication.
I have a birth I'm on call forin August and they're like, do
you need to do this likeinterview.
And I'm like, I might leave inthe middle of it, but Okay.

Now are you're, so you're on call for this birth
in August.
Do you like form a relationshipwith the family ahead of time?
Yeah.
Yeah.

Typically I do prenatal visits for months ahead
of the birth, and so we we havea foundation of trust and I, we
know each other well enough thatwhen it's go time, like it's a,
we just slide into, okay, thisis what we've been rehearsing
for.

so cool.
This is not the same in any way,shape, or form, so I am not
trying to compare.
However, I have officiated abunch of weddings.

Yeah.

And I was working for a company where I would get
paired with couples ahead oftime.
And so I would have a fewcheck-ins with them prior to the
wedding.
So you have this like littlerelationship with these
strangers and then you getyou're part, you're with them
for this part.
Important, yeah.
Yeah.
So bizarre.

relationship because like it is such a huge
moment for them.
And like I feel connected tothem because I get to witness
it.
And then I see them usually forsix weeks or so postpartum, and
I check in.
Months down the line too.
And sometimes people will justsend me pictures of their babies
six months later.

That's so cute.

yeah, it is, but it's so crazy'cause I'm like, I
I saw these babies on the daythey were born and walked
through early Parenthood withtheir parents and then I don't
see them again for many months

Or ever.

or ever.
Yeah.

Yeah.
Which it makes sense that thebook opens with a birth.

Yeah.

Yeah.
Okay.
The girls who grew big, what isyour elevator pitch

Yeah.
So it is about three youngmothers in Panhandle, Florida.
And it follows each of themthrough early motherhood,
through pregnancy, through birthwhen a new girl Adela arrives in
town, she's 16, she's pregnant,and her parents have sent her
from.
Indiana, her like wealthyupbringing in Indiana down south

(08:56):
to live with her grandmother,have her baby, leave her baby
there and return home likenothing happened.
But when she arrives in town,she's brought into this group of
other young mothers who arekinda raising themselves and
their kids in the back of apickup truck.

Yeah, the Capital G girls.
You, earlier in thisconversation you said that kids
make you present.
What does that mean to you?
Tell how have children in yourlife made you present?

They are experiencing everything for the
first time and they force youinto experiencing it with them.
Like you, you really can'twander off into space.
Like they'll bring you back.

That, yeah.
Yeah.

Yeah.
Over and over again.
And like when you're at yourlimit, they like, they push your
limit.
Past what it once was like they,they require a lot of you and
they give a lot to you.
I think that being in thepresence of kids is like one of
the hardest and like mostbeautiful things that we can do,

(09:58):
and they're like.
They allow us the ability toeither show up or not.
And it is hard and and I'm not aparent yet, but watching parents
do it and watching them becomesomeone they like, literally did
not know they could be.
It's incredible.
Like kids they'll make you bepresent because they are and

(10:19):
because they need you.

Yeah.
It's funny.
I'm also not a parent let's sayyet.
I.
My sister, who's younger thanme, has a two and a half year
old and an infant, and it's beenreally fun both watching the two
and a half year old grow up andthe things that, just the other
day she pointed to her toe andshe said, I have a booboo

(10:42):
literally right here.
And I was like, who are you?
And also watching my sisterbecome.
A mother, like it's such aspecific transformation.
Yeah.
But it's been really fun towatch.
Who are your girls?
Capital G Girls.

In my own life, I have a lot of, I'm surrounded by
a lot of mothers.
And yeah, and like they allparent differently and exist
differently.
It's, I think it's like such a,it's awing to witness different
people, parent and and the manyways.
There are to mother.
I think in the girls, we get tosee a wide array of people who

(11:25):
are all kinda in a similar stageof life, but who are figuring it
out differently.
And contending with the ideathat like whatever they do is
like never gonna satisfyeveryone.
And that's a lot of what.
I think motherhood is likehaving to come to terms with the
fact that there is so muchjudgment and so much scrutiny

(11:46):
over any and every choice thatmothers make.
And at a certain point, like youhave to just stand in your own
choices.
And that, that can be hard, butI think it also in a lot of ways
makes people a new version ofthemselves.
If so many people say they.
They cannot recognize who theyare after they give birth.

(12:07):
And it's a death of self and arebirth and and you have to
stand your ground and protectyour kids and protect this new
version of yourself and yourlife.

Yeah, it, it's interesting'cause you just said
new version of yourself.
When we were talking aboutmothers giving birth and then
becoming that version ofthemself.
I think, in our lives ingeneral, we go through these.
Stages and phases and becomedifferent versions of ourselves,
but also, people are coming inand out of our lives.

(12:41):
I think there are like seasonsfor friendship sometimes,
there's the time and the place.
And the book got me thinking somuch about just sort of
friendship in

Mm-hmm.

Do you remember your first real friend?

Yeah.
Yeah.
I had a friend when I was two,and then I had kinda the same,
I.
Best friend during elementaryschool,

Yeah,

yeah.
But friendships are, they're sointeresting because a lot of the
time when you're younger, likeit is circumstantial, right?

a hundred percent.

Based on where we are and what is like convenient,
and we have all of these times.
That are like set up to talk toour friends and exist with our
friends.
We have all of these sharedexperiences, but then in
adulthood, like that's not whatit is.
And friendship is so much harderto find and maintain when you
don't share all of the like,daily experiences with someone.

Yeah, absolutely.
I am in my, let's say, mid tolate thirties right now and
getting older.
It's so hard to make friends.
Because of cir likecircumstances, right?
Like I'm not in school, I'm not,in positions where I'm
connecting with new people.
So funnily enough, this is a way

yeah, exactly.

find yeah, and find common ground with people
and connect.
Through, in reading the book,but also as you were talking
about the circumstances of yourfirst friends, I was thinking
about who are mine?
And I was like, quickly runningthrough my Rolodex and I was
like, okay, this person, when Iwas in like Mommy and me classes
with my mom, who was like mybest friend, was one.

(14:17):
A kid in Cub Scouts when I wasin elementary school, there were
two or three people that I wasgood friends with throughout
elementary school, and then thatearly chunk of time, all of
those people that I could thinkof that I was closest with are
gay now.

That's so funny.

I was like, oh, we were clearly drawn to each
other subconsciously in somecapacity.
Yeah.
That's really interesting.

That is fascinating.
I went to an art school inmiddle school and high school,
so pretty much everyone was gay,so it wasn't like, the anomaly
was being straight.
And all of, most of my friendsfrom high school are queer.
And then now, like in adulthood,I have way more straight friends
than I ever have,

Oh, that's so interesting.
You.
I'm sure you're like tired oftalking about your age and I'm,
I am.
There's context in which I'mcurious to talk about it later
but now you're, I don't wannasay significantly, but you
we're, you're younger than I amand so hearing your experience,

(15:21):
it's so different from mine.
What was that like for you beingso young, being surrounded by
young, queer people?
I.

I think it's also like context is like I grew up
in the bay where queerness isjust kind of part of the
culture.
It wasn't, there wasn't as muchof coming out wasn't really a
thing.
Like I think most of us did iton a low.
Low level scale, but it wasn'twhen I came out to my family, it

(15:49):
wasn't like a, oh, they're gonnaI wasn't concerned about the
response.
And honestly, I probably didn'teven have to do it.
But I think that living in thatand growing up in, in that
culture meant that just wasn'tas primary of an identity for
me.
Which I think meeting otherqueer people who like grew up in
different contexts.

(16:10):
Sometimes queerness is like amore primary identity.
And for me, like sometimes I'llforget until I I'm elsewhere and
like me and my wife will be.
We'll be like walking down thestreet in Georgia and then we'll
be like, all right, we gottaremember.
And that changes it a littlebit.
So I think, yeah, I think it'slike a, also based in like

(16:32):
generations and having theinternet be such a a stronghold
through my childhood.
I think it was like Instagramwas the primary one when I was a
kid that I was.

That's so crazy to me.

But like Instagram was there the whole
time.
Yeah.

Yeah.

So I think that also probably has an influence
on it.

For sure.
You talk about growing up in theBay.
I grew up in Florida, southFlorida.
Let me be very clear.
And similarly, I was surroundedby not queer people in the same
way that I think the Bay Areais.
There, there is queer culture inFlorida.
There's a lot of arts, there's alot of just culture in general.
And I also grew up Jewish and ina community that was also quite

(17:16):
Jewish.
So similar to what you'redescribing, like it was never
like a quote unquote

Great.

It just was like the life we were living.
But hilariously in the bookthere's someone says in Florida,
you go north to get south.
I had never heard that beforeand I was like, oh, that's so
true.
And I am shocked.
I'd never heard that.

That's so interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I grew up hearing that I don'tknow why.

That's funny.
I also imagine, again, the storytakes place in the panhandle, so
I'm sure that like people abovea certain spot in Florida,
that's a very common thing.

And I think in the south in general,

sure.

'cause Florida is the South but doesn't belong to
the south in the same way aslike Alabama, Georgia.
Yeah.
But Northern Florida does

And you like get, nor like Orlando and South is
like a whole different place,

Yeah.
It's.

which is so weird.
And also something that comes upin the book that I did learn
growing up is that you weresupposed to apparently run
zigzag from an al an alligatorwhen you're running away from
them.
But that according to the bookdoes not sound true.

I did so much research about alligators.
Yeah, it's a really common thingthat you're told you're supposed
to run zigzag, but likealligators have eyes on each
side of their head so itwouldn't make sense to run
zigzag.
'cause that's the only timeyou're actually going in and out
of their view.
If you ran straight from them,you'd, they wouldn't see you.

I know.
I don't

It's really fascinating.

fascinating.
Why was I told that?

I don't know.
There are so many things likethat.

I know.
Being the premise of this bookis about.
Young mothers.
In Florida.
While I was reading the book, Igot a text from a good friend of
mine who's a teacher in Florida,and she was telling me that they
just implemented a new sex edcurriculum.

(19:11):
Pushing abstinence untilmarriage.
The importance of heterosexualmarriage unit, the unchangeable
nature of the sex binary.
And I was just like, it is justso bonkers to me that while I'm
reading this book, that's what'sliterally getting pushed.

it's true.
Yeah.
And Florida policy is they'requick with it.
They keep going.
So over the duration of writingthis book, the laws around
abortion changed like fourtimes, I think in the course of
four years.
And it was a struggle to keep upwith what was supposed to be a

(19:46):
contemporary novel.

Like literally it gets published and immediately
it's historical fiction.

Yeah, exactly.
And part of the conversation wehad to have after the last ban,
which was a six week abortionban and six weeks, it's so
early.
Most people don't know they'repregnant at six weeks.
At that point, I was like,there's no way the, like that
the plot falls apart, itcollapses with this.

(20:13):
So I ended up moving it to beset in 2023 which would be the
abortion ban at, I believe 15weeks or 11 weeks for a
medication abortion, maybe 12 to15 for.
A DNC.
So that ended up being the waythat it went, but it changed so

(20:36):
many times.
It went 15 weeks, 11 weeks, sixweeks.
And and keeping up with it wasimpossible because once Roe v
Wade was overturned, then allthey like started enacting these
policies really quickly.
And then it had to go to theFlorida Supreme Court and then
it passed through and then theychanged it again.
And, up with the conservativepolitics in this current moment

(20:59):
was impossible for this book,but it also relies on like the
idea of it being incrediblydifficult to access abortion,
but not impossible.

Yeah.
Absolutely.
And it's so fascinating, yousaying that just puts it into
such a different perspective forme because it is not uncommon
for laws or I don't know, allsorts of things to not matter to
someone until it matters tothem.

Completely.
Yeah.

And I imagine, and I don't wanna make any
generalizations, but I imaginethat, a person in Florida only
cares about an abortion law at avery specific moment in time.
And so the fact that you weretracking it over the course of
years of writing a novel andwe're able to see it changing

(21:49):
constantly.
Whereas someone who literallylives in Florida who might not
have any sense of how often it'schanging until they quote
unquote, need to know.

Yeah.
And we're being like overwhelmedwith policy changes, and it
makes it impossible to keep upwith everything.
And so you pick and choosewhat's important to you, and
then one day you realize thatyou like missed something.

Right.
Absolutely.
Right at this point for me, I'mjust like, am I allowed to still
be married to my husband?
Okay, cool.

It's so confusing.
Yeah.

Let's keep moving on and whatever.
Yeah.
Family is created by confessionis a little concept that pops up
in the book.
What does that mean to you?

I think particularly in the context of
shame, which is a lot of whatthese girls are contending with,
and the idea that you're likenot supposed to say or speak of
things that are taboo, that areillicit ends up meaning for them
that when they decide todisclose anything to each other,

(22:54):
it creates like a sanctity ifthat information is like
preserved and kept sacred in therelationship.
And so these girls create afamily together just by way of
being able to exist fully andcompletely as themselves.
And I think one interestingthing about like young pregnancy

(23:16):
is that it's open.
There's no hiding it.
And so in a lot of the ways thatlike as teenagers, especially
teenagers maybe with more strictparents or coming from
conservative communities like.
You have to hide the thingsyou're doing as a teenager.
Everyone knows it's happening.
And

hold this jacket in front of you.

right?
Exactly.
But then at a certain point whenyou have pregnancy as part of
that, there is no hiding.
And so the shame becomes.
Outward and open, and it livesand breathes in these children.
And these girls are forced to beexcommunicated from their
community because of thatbecause they can't hide it, and

(23:56):
that is what is being asked ofthem.
And so by, being able to go toeach other and create this
little community in themselvesthat, that ends up.
The family in which they'reraising their children they're
allowed to say or do whateverthey need to.
And it becomes like a release.

Yeah, yes.
And it had me thinking aboutlike friendship in general and
what friendship means.
And for me, I think a recurringtheme in friendships is trust.
And similarly, it's okay iftrust and quote unquote
confession and be able to livein that shame with people is

(24:39):
what sort of emerges into fam iswhat like takes a friendship
into

Yeah.
And in some ways, like arejection of that shame by
experiencing it with others.

Yeah.
Yeah.
For someone to say, no, I'm notgonna feel shame here.
And so therefore they're liketaking away your shame too.

Yeah.

Yeah.
It's such a powerful experience.
The book is about becoming And.
That sort of like evolution ofwho you are, right?
Like earlier in thisconversation, talking about what
it means to become a motherfrom, one day you're not, and
the next day you are.
What is, what has Layla'sjourney been from pre-night

(25:23):
crawling to this, to, what hasyour journey been like?
What has your process been likeas a person, as a writer?
How have you become.

Yeah, so much has changed for me since night
crawling and even I think aboutit in.
These other sections because Iwrote night crawling.
I started when I was 16.
I finished it when I was 17, andthen I, the book didn't come out
until I was 19, turning 20.
So the, like rapid amount ofchange between 16, 17 and 1920

(25:54):
meant that by the time the bookwas coming out, like I, I had
become a different person andthen was like representing a
book that I wrote.
From a very different part of mylife.
And now like I am another fouryears from that.
And and it's been interesting toI.

(26:15):
I feel like a more of an adultnow.
I'm kind of, at 19 and 20, likeI, I was still in the middle
ground and and now like I, Ifeel like I stand more fully in
my adult life and and haveseparated a little more from the
person who not only wrote thatbook, but put that book out and

(26:36):
I think it's really interestingand a unique experience to have
my 16, 17-year-old, like brainmemorialized forever.
And it's taken a lot of likeprocessing for me to be okay
with that.
'cause it's like having yourlike diary published and
available in a bookstore and,and so I like, have had to cope

(26:58):
with the the detachment fromthat and also the respect of my,
like younger self and the workthat she created and the meaning
that it serves while also beingable to go and I'm in an
entirely different place in mylife and I don't wanna create
anything like that again.

Yeah, that's that's part of it, right?
Just like the moving on and intoa next phase as a person, as an
artist, as a creator I.
And for all, you're going to putit on the page and then that's
gonna be it for 20 years, and ithas the co-sign of Oprah.
There's this, there's stakes andpressure there,

completely.
Yeah.

So it's interesting, I was saying, I was
curious to talk to you aboutyour age and the context of the
book because so much of the bookis about the.
Sort of naivete of youth, and Ithink we, there is this
ignorance as bliss component andin, in a good way, in a, oh God,

(27:57):
I wish I still had that to feelmore comfortable, to feel like I
was unflappable and everythingwas okay.
And I feel like when I was ayoung person.
I thought I had become

Yep.

well, and so I find it so interesting.
Like again, I said, I'm sureyou're tired of talking about
your age, but for me, I think somuch of my hindsight came as I
got so much older and as such ayoung person, the book is so
insightful with things that Ithink only come, not only

(28:33):
obviously, but I think veryclearly come with.
Age.
Where do you think that comesfrom for you?
Because you're not older, right?
But you are able to tap intosomething and I want to put a
little asterisk because I thinksome people say like, well,
you're a woman.
How could you write from a man'sperspective?
And I don't mean it like that.
Like you can obviously write anolder character, no problem.

(28:57):
But there are nuances toreflecting on a young person.
That's, I think that's what I'mtalking

Yeah, part of, why I wrote this book now was
because I do believe that theolder I get, the harder it is
for me to accurately depict thebrain of a 16-year-old.
And and there is like thishindsight's 2020 like way that
we can reflect the older we getthat changes our ability to

(29:28):
like.
Fully and completely empathizewith the experience of
teenagers.
And so part of why I did thiswas'cause I like know I can't do
it in 10 years.
And and in, in this book, likeI, I knew that I needed to have
multiple young mothers.
One, because I think it'simportant that we see teen

(29:50):
parents as not monolithic and.
It varied in their experiences,but also because I think it was
important to have an oldercharacter, Simone, who has
4-year-old twins and she ispregnant.
Again in the start of the book.
And so we see like herreflections as she's like now 21

(30:13):
and has distance that the othersdon't have.
And experience parenting whichwill age you that the others
don't have.
And her experience, I thinkhelps us put into context the
other girls' experiences,particularly with Adella.
Because we're also talking aboutmen preying on young girls.

(30:35):
And and that was important to me'cause there a large.
Population of teen parents getpregnant by someone who is four
to six years older than them ormore.
And that is when you think abouta 14-year-old and a 20-year-old,
that's a large age difference.
But when you're 14 it doesn'tfeel like it because you don't

(30:57):
know what it's like to be 20 andso it was important to me that
like we get to fully experiencethe head of Adela who's 16 and
like just can't know.
What she doesn't know.
And that's what being a teenageris like.
You don't know what you don'tknow.
And there's something reallybeautiful about that because
you're like falling head first.
But also something dangerousabout it.

(31:19):
And and then seeing Simone onthe other side, she's reflecting
on.
I had kids by someone far olderthan me, and how do I cope with
the fact that person is alwaysgoing to be in my life because
they're my children's parent?
And also, how do I cope with thefact that that is the story I'm

(31:40):
giving my children.
And that is a story I have totell my children and that isn't
necessarily something I'd wantfor my children.

And I think back to the whole shame piece, that's
an such an important reason tostrip the shame away.

completely.
Completely.
And so I think it was importantto me that we get to experience
the large difference between a21-year-old and a 16-year-old.
And I.
How one of while both of themare in early parenthood and are
young and are trying to likenavigate getting to be like
young women and also having tobe parents at the same time.

(32:20):
They're also coming at it fromtwo very different perspectives
just by way of what time givesus and

So in a way, you are the Simone to these
characters in your

in some way, yeah.
I.
I had more distance when I wrotenight crawling.
I was in it and there wasn't anydistance.
And like even just the fact ofthe first person present versus
first person past, like there issome way that even I naturally
and subconsciously will writeinto.
I.
The perspective I can have atthe time.

(32:54):
And getting to go back into thisworld of teenage girls was was
important to me to do because Ido I don't have that much
distance from it.
I do remember it pretty clearly.
And I like know people who arestill closer to that.
And I also wanted at the sametime to balance it with the

(33:15):
perspective of hindsight is 2020and we need to understand the
other side of it in order tolike really respect what it
means to be 16 and also go thereare things that you're gonna
learn just through time andexperience that are important.
I.

Sure.
Yeah.
And I don't, I, what was Isaying?
I don't want to come across asthough me being like, you're so
young.
How could you write this?
But, and I don't want to takeaway the.
The crazy experiences that youhave had as a young person that
can age you, right?
Like the experience of being inconversation with freaking Oprah

(33:55):
about your first book like thatis not something that you just
leave that experience and you'relike a normal 20-year-old,
right?
Anyway.
I don't want, I don't wanna feellike me.
I'm saying, how could you writethis?
You're so young.
No.
Like you've been on a journeyand I think that's really cool
to it be reflected in the story.

Contextually, like I wasn't probably like a
typical 14-year-old either.
Um, And like a, my life forcedme to.
Age earlier than I otherwisewould have.
And I like, I think that hasbrought some perspective, but I
also I try to remind myself likethere are still things that I,

(34:36):
ways my brain works that arebased in like the physiological
reality of like braindevelopment and, and so it,
there are like ways that yeah, Ifunction.
More like I'm 23 and then thereare ways that I function more
like I'm 40 and sometimesthey're like in conflict with

(34:58):
each other, but I think theylike help me write books that
can be both complex and alsoabout young people.

sure.
It's interesting and I'm, I amcurious to talk to my therapist
about this.
Why I am, I don't wanna say I'mstuck on this.
I'm very happy to move on, butwhy?
It's something that was very on,very much on my mind, and I
think some of it is because Iwas the precocious 24-year-old.
I was the person who was 24, 25,26, and people thought I was in

(35:25):
my early thirties.
And so I on one hand when I gotolder was like, oh, this is now
what it's like.
And also I was sad for theyounger version of myself who
couldn't just be a young personand who needed, needed to like

(35:47):
live in this world of.
Having been older anyway,that's, I think that's why I'm
looping on it.
The, there's so much aboutfeeling known and feeling seen
and belonging in the book.
And I wrote the question, whatdoes it mean to belong?
And then I was thinking, whatdoes it feel like to belong?

(36:08):
Because I almost think thatthere are two different answers
there.
I'm curious what you think aboutthat.

Yeah, I think for the girls in this book,
belonging is like being able tobe at the crossroads of being a
teenager and also a mother, andnot having to completely
sacrifice either of thoseexperiences.
And so a lot of their, a lot oftheir time together is spent

(36:34):
doing things.
Teenagers do.
They dance and they drink andthey hang out and they do each
other's hair and it's it's veryquintessentially young of them.
But at the same time they'relike, they're mothering and
they're helping each otherparent and they're like teaching
each other how to latch theirbabies and they're like cooking

(36:58):
dinner together.
So I think for a lot of.
Like the girls in this book,being able to belong is being
exactly where you're at andexactly who you are at any
moment.
And knowing that this this groupof young women is going to
completely accept you in that,or they're gonna tell you that

(37:20):
they're mad at you or they'reunafraid to be angry with each
other and to fight.
And and I think that is likepart of.
Closeness and connection andlike true intimate
relationships, you have to beable to be in conflict with
those people.
And so we see them exist inconflict like any teenagers

(37:41):
would and any family would.
And I think that is part oftheir closeness and of the way
that they belong to each otheris trusting each other with
conflict without kind of, Ithink the fear of complete
abandonment.

Yeah, so I'm almost hearing, or what I think
I'm hearing is what it means tobelong is getting to that
crossroads and being at thecrossroads with others and then
feeling like you belong isgetting to experience those
things and living in thoseconflicts and having.
And having that freedom ofdancing, of drinking, of

(38:14):
whatever and like being a partof that community.
Yeah.
You at one point, and reallyonly one point in the book, you
use the word coven to describethem.
I'm curious where that comesfrom for you and or why that
word in particular,

Yeah, there were a couple different words that
came up, coven gang cult, likethere are a lot of ways you
could describe.
This group of girls,

Huh.

unusual and I think in a lot of ways that like
a coven functions these girlsare, they're a group doing some
kind of like witchcraft in, intheir kind of opposition to what
is standard, what is normal,what is accepted.
I think that there is aninherent rebellion in it.

(39:04):
And then I also think similarlyto a gang, we see like them be
feared and seen as like thisviolent group.
And also like gangs are wherepeople go for belonging.
Like where they go for familywhen they don't have any.
And that is like what they areand how they relate to each

(39:26):
other.

Is, has that ever been your experience?

I don't have, I've never been part of large
groups of friends.
It's not the way that I relateto people.
I'm, I fear large groups, and soI, I have like more intimate.
Close friendships that are likeeither one or two people at a

(39:51):
time.
And I compartmentalize them intodifferent areas of my life.

Yeah, no, I understand.
How did you meet your wife

we met in college.
We met, we lived in the samehouse dorm and so we met our
first day.
Yeah.
Yeah.

you, you didn't start dating on your first day,
did you?

Two, three weeks in, like

Oh my God,

Yeah.
So and then it's been like fiveand a half years.
Yeah.

that's so cute.
I love that.

yeah.
She's the best.
She's great.

I met someone early on in college and dated
them for two years and that wasthe end of that.
So I like, understand

Neither of us could have said that we were
gonna stay together outside ofcollege.

no, but five and a half years, that is nothing to

Yeah.

turn your nose up at.
That's amazing.
Good for you.
The world is gonna send you sometreasures when you need it the
most.
Do you believe that?

Yes.
But I don't, I think sometimeswe expect to be able to like,
pray our way into somethingdifferent.
I find that usually thetreasure, the thing you need is
not the thing that you're hopingor praying for.

(41:10):
And then sometimes it's harderto recognize when it comes.

Interesting that, that's what I ask you after you
tell me you met your wife thefirst day of school, right?

And like the what I always tell people is my wife
and I, like she was not theright person for me and I was
not the right person for herwhen we met.
Like it was, we were not readyfor each other.
And like it was miraculous thatwe got there.
And it took.
Like solid six months to a yearto meet each other.

Yeah.

and I like, I don't even think I really knew
who she was until six months in,and she'd probably say the same.

That's really cool.
One of the best pieces of advicethat my husband and I got when
we were getting married is thatyou are not gonna be the same
person that you were when yougot married.
And so it's important to evolvetogether and be on that journey
with each other and respect thatof each other.

(42:09):
And so it sounds like that waspart of what you were
navigating.

like when we met, I was 17 and so we like, it's
been a long time and we've been

And just finished your first novel?

Yeah, exactly.
I was editing it when we met.

Yeah.
Oh wow.

And so she's walked through all of this with
me and like she's gone throughso many different changes too.
We have been many peopletogether and I'm sure we'll be
many more.

I know it happens.
I think a lot about like fateand karma and destiny when
reading the book, I.

Yeah.

What do those things mean to you?

I'm a believer that.
You do get swayed towards whereyou're supposed to go.
And there have been times in mylife where I fight it and I
fight and always like things gowrong.
And

is there something that comes to mind
that was like a recent thing ofthat I.

I mean there's so many ways that I do this, but I
think in writing, I do this alot actually.
Um, I'm someone who writes.
Pretty quickly.
So I I wrote six books betweennight crawling and the girls,
and I just kept it was likebanging my head into the wall

(43:26):
and even after I bruised, I justkept going.
And for me, sometimes like Ihave to.
I'll fight and fight and likepersist to a fault when
sometimes like you just have tolet things go.
And and in that process, likewhen I actually started writing
the girls, I had told myselflike, I'm just gonna have fun.

(43:52):
I'm going to have a good time.
I'm gonna write whatever I wantand I don't have to show it to
anyone.

Yeah.

And the minute I like released myself, I did have
fun and like it was a differentwriting experience and finally
like it was able to click and Ithink sometimes I.
I like, I have built up, I havesuch a history of fighting for
things and like pushing reallyhard and I think that's a lot of

(44:20):
how I got here.
But at the end of the day, likeusually the thing that makes, it
work is not something that I amdoing.
I do a lot of work to get thereand then like at some point you
like let go and you release, andthat is usually when like the
good things happen.

Yeah.
I love that.
You are about to do a lot ofthese, so this question is like
unfair,

Okay.

but do you miss them?

I usually don't experience that.
And I think part of it isbecause through the revision
process, I like, I'm reallyactive and in it, and then that
very last and I'm changingthings to the end.
But then that very last read, Itry to read it as a reader as
much as I possibly can.

(45:09):
And I think it helps me likeclose and go, okay, I'm like.
They were gonna be left here.

Yeah

sometimes I miss, like the kids,

Uhhuh.

Sometimes I think I miss getting to experience the
like beachy fun part of it.

Sure.

Because it's just like a different setting than
any of my other books.
So it's like a, it was a funexperience for me to write and
like very contrasted to nightcrawling, which is a pretty like
heavy book through a lot of it.
And even like in the BrightMoments, there's an overlay of
darkness in it.

(45:50):
And this book, like for me, wasa really bright experience and I
got to have fun.
So I think it, there are waysthat like I miss how easy it was
in a lot of ways.
Having three first personperspectives was like a really
fun challenge for me, and I'mnot doing that right now.

(46:13):
So getting to switch betweenthem and like always have
something new every day was anexperience that I miss
sometimes.
Yeah.

Yeah.
I think because it's like such astrong character study as a
reader, every time I would comeback to the book, I would think,
oh, I miss them.
I'm glad I get to check in on

Completely.

So I wasn't sure if you felt that same way as the
author, but you've spent a lotof time with them, so it's fair
that they can

I feel that way.
If I like miss a writing daywhen I'm, when I was drafting
it, then I would feel that wayand

Oh, sure.
That's fair.

Yeah.
If I'm like in it and now likeI've moved on to the next thing,
so I miss those characters rightnow, then I'm not writing.

yeah.
Oh, I love that.
This is so fun.
It's June right now.
Happy pride.
Everyone go check out the girlswho grew big by Layla Motley.
Thank you for being here.
Have a wonderful rest of yourday.

Thank you so.

Harper! (47:13):
Guest Gay Reader time!

So what's happening?
How was your day?
Or you're like

Chip Pons (47:19):
It's in the end of a long day.
It's been a bit chaotic, buteveryone's been posting their
like, pride hopefuls, and so myphone was like blowing up today,
which is like overwhelming, butvery exciting.

Blowing up because people are posting your

Chip Pons (47:33):
they are.
I feel very like excited andhonored that I get to take part
in the pride stacks this year.
'cause it's been a minute sinceI had a book out.

The pride stacks.
At first I thought you said thepride, sex, and I was like,
maybe both.

Chip Pons (47:50):
Yeah.
I am a romance author after all.

Before we dive in or take

Chip Pons (47:56):
Ooh.

To talk about your book, chip Pons, I have to
know as my guest gay readertoday, what are you reading?

Chip Pons (48:04):
Oh my gosh, what am I reading?
Truthfully, I'm not readinganything at the moment.
I am like, I, as of I.
Friday, I just got like nine, anine page edit letter for my
next book.
So I'm like deep.
I'm reading my own upcoming bookat the moment.

You are not the first guest gay reader reading
your own book.

Chip Pons (48:29):
I have a lot of books that I'm excited about, but
currently, like I'm veryselfishly in my own reading

Great.
How do you feel about readingthe next book whilst getting in
the head space for the

Chip Pons (48:42):
Yeah, it's very interesting because I've been
working on Wingy with you since22.
So to like finally be able toclose that chapter, like I've
been mentally done with it for along time.
And so getting into the headspace for something that's a
complete pivot, like I'mentering my like paranormal
small town era for this nextone.

(49:04):
And that's been fun.
Like I, I feel like I have allthe happy feelings and the
excitement for winging it withyou.
And then also all of the like,excitement and happy feelings
for the next one, which is likerare.
But there's a lot of anxiety andstress and sleepless nights over
it as well.
But it's all good.

And I feel like this is not, I'm not a
journalist and this is not likea profile, but let's say it.
was because I feel like you,you're a very public in
quotation marks, Bookstagramfigure.
But I would also argue.
A little elusive.
How do you balance this, likeworking full-time whilst being a

(49:47):
writer?

Chip Pons (49:48):
I was like, I feel like I'm ver I'm a yapper and I
just tell everyone everythingall the time.
So I was like, that'sinteresting that you think that
no

I think that you are a yapper about.

Chip Pons (49:58):
book

The same things.

Chip Pons (50:00):
Okay.
I

And I don't mean to say you're repetitive, I just
mean like you.
have a brand right?
Yeah.
Yeah.

Chip Pons (50:07):
I, feel like I'm very like, transparent about the
things that like.
I love talking about I've triedreally hard to keep, so I, I am
a full, I have a full-time job.
I've had a federal career.
I was in the Air Force as aphotojournalist for almost eight
years, and then I'vetransitioned that into a federal
career.
And so I try to keep those livesvery separate because it's it's

(50:32):
just very different, I try tokeep my.
Work politics out of my personalpolitics and vice versa.
So like my professional lifeit's very it's very rare if
anyone knows that I've got stuffgoing on in the book world.
Like it's I've done my hardestto keep that a secret.

Really?
How

Chip Pons (50:54):
Just, we don't need to go down a whole federal
rabbit hole, but there areethical things where it's second
employment and like making sureI'm not using, company time to
do any of my book stuff.
And so I never want to blurlines.
And so I like, I take that veryseriously because I love it's
weird.
This is the first time.
Re probably the last couplemonths where I've felt like I

(51:16):
have two careers.
Like for the longest it's feltlike a, an established career
and like a hobby or like a thingthat I'm trying to dabble in.
And now it's nope, I definitelyhave two full careers that I'm
trying to dedicate 24 7 on mylife to.
Which has been so fun on top ofbeing married and having some

(51:40):
semblance of a social life andnot eating everything in sight.
Like it's just been, it's justbeen wonderful.

How do you balance it

Chip Pons (51:48):
I don't do it well.
I'm very thankful that I.
Like an incredibly supportivehusband who one like encourages
me to chase every wild dreamthat I have, but two who like,
we're in the same career fieldand so we like not only
personally relate, but weprofessionally relate to one

(52:09):
another.
So it's like he helps me keepeverything into perspective.

Yeah.
Hooray for

Chip Pons (52:16):
Yay.
Marriage.

Happy

Chip Pons (52:18):
Thanks.

to all of our supportive partners out there.
You two things thing one, I wantto just publicly acknowledge we
are recording.
Post work Eastern Time for you.
This is very much not on companytime.

Chip Pons (52:32):
It's very not.
No.

but also you said something that I found so
interesting about keeping yourprofessional life separate as
though you are not callingyourself a professional

Chip Pons (52:44):
I know.
I know that it's been a,

face you just made was, I know I'm on a
journey.
Jason, leave me alone.

Chip Pons (52:52):
so like even, like on Instagram, how like people can
have titles, right?
Like I don't remember when I wasjust a book Instagramer.
I like, I feel.
This is a whole journey ofidentity, right?
Like I feel like I have one footfirmly planted in both worlds
and I feel icky calling myself abookstore grammar now, or like a

(53:14):
book influencer.
And I still feel uncomfortablecalling myself an author, even
though like I've self-publishedone book.
I'm about to have onetraditionally published out this
year, and then I've got.
Two more planned for the nexttwo years.
But I remember how nervous I wasto change it from, I, I think it
was influencer, maybe to writer.

(53:36):
And that felt more naturalbecause like technically I was a
photojournalist and I was awriter in the military.
So that felt real.
And then it wasn't until I thinkit was like.
than a year ago, I changed it toauthor, and that's been like a
fun mind game.
But I have to slap myself on thewrist every time I go to talk or

(53:59):
like to diminish this chapter ofmy life because it's no longer a
hobby and it's no longersomething that I'm trying to do.
Like I've done it and I'mcontinuing to do it and so I'm
trying to be better.

Yeah, listen, I find all of that so interesting
for me personally and selfishly,'cause I'm going through a
version of the same thing.
I never really called myself abooks to grammar.
So I am that I don't, I'm not soworried about.
But this podcast sort ofstarted.
I.
In a hobby space, and I can'treally call it a hobby anymore.

(54:31):
So I totally understand.
And to top it all off, likebeing in pride, being in June
to, just to unpack the conceptof identity.
In so many different forms.

Chip Pons (54:45):
It's definitely, and like I never wanted to seem like
I'm not proud of this identityor this, part of me.
It's just been a lot to likeswallow and like to pivot to
because I, I think there's somesort of imposter syndrome
lingering in those insecurities,right?
And do I belong in, where do Ibelong?
Do I belong with the booksgrammars because I am no longer

(55:09):
really reviewing other people'sbooks and promoting other things
beyond my friends.
And but am I sitting at the coolkids' table yet?
Like when will I personally feellike I'm there?
So we'll see.

You mentioned earlier that there are a handful
of books that you're lookingforward to reading.
Are there any off the top ofyour head

Chip Pons (55:26):
Oh my gosh.
Yes.
Wait.
You.
Sorry.
Oh, see me at the fi See me atthe finish line by Zach Hammett.
I am so excited to read this.
I just got this in the mailyesterday.
It is a like at, it's like auniversity rowing romance.
I think it's enemies to loversand the cover is so cute.

(55:49):
I'm just so excited.
I have heard nothing but greatthings and so this is like next
on my reading list.

I love that it's a book about rowers, and of
course they have bare

Chip Pons (56:01):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
And there's some armpit showingtoo.
It's like wonderful.

Okay.
Tell me, tell the people aboutwinging it with you.
Do you have an elevator pitch?
You must, you've been talkingabout it for so

Chip Pons (56:14):
I know I've literally been talking it.
So winging with you is I'm likewinging with you is my fake
dating rom-com set on realitytelevision show, like the
Amazing Race Meets Fear Factormeets, all the other adventure
based reality TV shows.
Where Poor Asher is begrudginglygoing about this, journey he

(56:35):
gets, the airport getstragically dumped by his loser
of a partner.
Of seven years at the airportticket line and starts drowning
his sorrows in mimosas andmozzarella sticks at the
airport, TGI Fridays.
Where he then convinces randomlythe deliciously sexy Theo
Fernandez, an airline pilot tobe his travel and competition

(56:57):
partner and fake boyfriend.
And they travel around the worldand they fake it for the
cameras, and they have to figureout what is real between them
when the cameras stop rolling.
Yeah.

How did your love of this genre come to be?

Chip Pons (57:13):
Romance, romance.

Yeah.

Chip Pons (57:15):
I feel like I just chase that feel good feeling of
like people falling in love.
I think from a young age Irealized that was very important
and like people finding theirperson was like this beautiful
thing in life.
I don't know.
I don't know why.

(57:36):
I've just always loved love andI just have always loved people
like reaching for someone's handas they're facing life.
And I just remember, being sosmitten with love stories and
romcoms growing up, andespecially as I, got older and
it wasn't until.
Maybe my like late teens, earlytwenties, where I was like,

(58:00):
Nope, this is the genre thattakes the cake.
There's nothing else thatcompares to it.
I love thrillers, I lovemysteries and like being on the
edge of my seat, but there istruly nothing more important in
my life than like family andlove and romance and yeah, it's
just, yeah, I'm a romantic.

rom-coms that inspired you when you were

Chip Pons (58:22):
I don't remember when it came out, but I think like
my, like top tier romcom is howto lose a guy in 10 days.
That's my, I know.
It's, I.

I, No, I love it.
Don't.

Chip Pons (58:35):
I watch that with like hard eyes.
There's just something soundeniable about their chemistry
and the banter and the way thatI'll never forget Kate Hudson
leaning out the window and she'soh, I'm gonna make him
miserable, or whatever the lineis where she just is about to
wreck this man and it's so good.

Kathryn Han does not get enough recognition for
her role in that

Chip Pons (58:56):
Katherine Hahn is a visual and like personality
embodiment of one of thecharacters and winging it with
you.
I like totally modeled her afterKatherine Hanh, like there's a
side character Jen who justlapped off the page for me and
when I pictured her I only couldpicture Katherine Han.

As an as a rom-com aficionado.
This is your, firsttraditionally published book,
how was or what was the decisionbehind like these tropes as the
first one outta the gate?
Does that make sense?
That is such an

Chip Pons (59:32):
yes.
No, it's it take makes totalsense.
I, so my first book you and Irewritten is heavy and like
trauma dumpy, and it was likeclearly I needed to work through
something as I was writing that.
And so when I was thinking aboutwhat comes next, I was like, I
need something light.
I need something like that's.
At the heart of romcom, like Iwant fun, fluff cheese, like all

(59:57):
those things I use like withaffection.
And so I knew I wanted to do afake dating romance and I was
like, okay, how could I torture?
The crap out of two men who arepretending to be boyfriends, and
this is like such a random chiplore, but my husband and I for

(01:00:21):
the past, like almost 12 years,have fallen asleep to American
dad.
I.
Every single night that's

Jason Blitman (01:00:29):
is so

Chip Pons (01:00:29):
so random.
I had never seen it before wegot together.
Like I was never like allowed towatch those like adult cartoons.
And so like for some reasonthat's become our comfort show
and we put it on every singlenight and fall asleep to it.
And there's an episode where thefamily like goes on.

(01:00:51):
An amazing race Ask show, and Iwas percolating ideas and that
episode randomly started playingand I was like, how hilarious
would it be if I forced twostrangers to go on a reality
show, like the Amazing Racewhere they're forced together
like 24 7 in hotel rooms andtaxis and boats and planes like.

(01:01:14):
Like really forcing them to getcomfortable very fast.
And like the idea just sprayingfrom there.
I was like, oh, I'm gonna makethem miserable and so
uncomfortable and so awkward andI just felt like that was the
perfect storm for tension andlike chemistry and conflict and
drama.
So that's where it came from.

Yeah, so fun.
Now, where did American dad

Chip Pons (01:01:40):
Literally that's my, that's all.
My husband he grew up on thoseshows and he was like, I'm going
to introduce you to some highclass television.
And it was America Dad, so

Did you fall asleep to TV prior to that?

Chip Pons (01:01:56):
No yeah, like this was a huge I would read before
bed or maybe watch like TIdon't, it was very rare.
It wasn't like an every nightthing.
And now it's cool get outta theshower, turn on American dads at
the timer for 30 minutes andhave enough time to watch the
first seven minutes of anepisode and fall asleep to the
shenanigans.

Wow, that's

Chip Pons (01:02:17):
Yeah.
It's

We love a routine

Chip Pons (01:02:19):
for sure.

You wanted the book to have all sorts of things
and you also said, cheese,mozzarella,

Chip Pons (01:02:27):
mozzarella.
Mecu baby.

Yes.
I know it's not really a jokeanymore because it would've been
funny about eight

Chip Pons (01:02:35):
but it's still funny.
So I like the callback.

I wanted to say mozzarella cheese in that
moment, but I didn't wannainterrupt you.

Chip Pons (01:02:43):
I love mozzarella

I, yeah, I could tell.
Are you a TGI Fridays fan Justso happens to be a thing that
you would find at an

Chip Pons (01:02:53):
Yeah, literally every time I've traveled there's
always an airport, TGI Fridaysor like an airport, Wolfgang
Pucks.
Like those are the random thingsthat I feel like I always clock
every time I go there.
Yeah.

I was just talking to a couple authors
about chilies in

Chip Pons (01:03:11):
Yes.
I love Mia Chili's.

Yeah.
Is are mozzarella sticks yourgo-to order of an appetizer?

Chip Pons (01:03:19):
No if I was single and by myself, yes.
My husband doesn't eat a lot offried stuff, so like I don't,
like I indulge when it's likethe two of us are gonna indulge.
But when it's just me, like Idon't wanna eat mozzarella
sticks by myself, that's lame.

Sure.

Chip Pons (01:03:36):
But I think nachos would be my go-to order,

Oh,

Chip Pons (01:03:40):
but that just didn't have the same ring to it for a
me cute,

yeah, no.
When I would go to TGI Fridaysas a kid, I would do the potato

Chip Pons (01:03:49):
Oh yes, and remember you, I think you can still get
those in the freezer section.

I'm sure you can.
And I did growing up.
I don't want to.
I don't, I can't.
No.
No judgment to anyone who does.
And if they wanted to sponsorgay's reading, then I would
happily support

Chip Pons (01:04:06):
I know.
Come on, TJ Fridays.

Chip Ponds, thank you so much for being my guest
gay reader today.
Everyone could get winging itwith you out now, wherever you
get your books and fall in lovewith them on their amazing
journey.

Chip Pons (01:04:18):
Thank you so much for having me.

And Happy Pride.

Chip Pons (01:04:21):
Happy Pride.
Layla Chip, thank you so muchfor being here today, everyone.
I am always grateful for yourtime and for being here
listening to GA's reading.
I will see you later this weekwith another special episode,
and have a wonderful rest ofyour day.
Thanks.
Bye.

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