Episode Transcript
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(00:33):
Hello and welcome to GaysReading.
I'm your host, Jason Blitman andHappy Pride.
It's June, I can't believe it'sJune.
Where has the year gone?
On today's episode, we haveLucas Schaefer, who talks to me
about his epic debut novel, theSlip, which is out today, and
the guest, gay reader.
(00:54):
Is Mike Curato, whose bookFlamer is one of the most banned
books in the United States.
We talk about what he's readingand learn about his new book,
GAYSIANS, which is also outtoday.
Their full bios are in the shownotes.
There is so much to look forwardto this month in celebration of
pride.
There will be two episodes eachweek for the month of June.
(01:15):
I just counted yesterday andrealized that I have.
14 conversations that have beenrecorded and not released yet,
and I am just bubbling withexcitement to share them with
you.
Of course, you could watch allthe episodes over on YouTube.
Make sure you're following us onsocial media at Gaze Reading on
Instagram and Blue Sky andsubscribe wherever you get your
(01:36):
podcast so that you will stay inthe know there's a gaze reading.
Substack where I have a bookbuying pride guide, it's free.
But if you're so inclined, youcan get a paid subscription for
less than the price of a coffeeper month, and you could support
this gay indie podcast.
Speaking of supporting this gayindie podcast, there is gay's
(01:57):
reading merch, and it's so cute,and you could see everything
that is in the little merchstore.
In the link, in the show notes,there's a gay reader sweatshirt
and mugs, and there's an A isfor ally t-shirt and all sorts
of super fun stuff.
So make sure to check that out.
If you are new to Gay's Reading,welcome.
(02:18):
If you've listened before, thankyou for coming back.
Gay's Reading is an inti podcastand a labor of love, so if you
are enjoying the show, pleaselike and subscribe wherever you
get your podcast.
I know I said that already, butI, it doesn't hurt to say it
again.
Share us with your friends, andif you're so inclined, leave a
five star review So that thealgorithm can help other folks
find the show as well, it meansso much.
(02:40):
And I am super grateful to thoseof you who have done so already
and for everyone's support,throughout the last two years of
the podcast.
I cannot believe we're about tocelebrate two years of gay
reading.
Ugh, crazy.
Well, to kick off Pride Month,please enjoy my conversations
with Lucas Schafer and MikeCurato.
Jason Blitman (03:01):
I am so excited
that you're
Lucas Schaefer (03:03):
Yeah.
This is great.
Thank you for having me.
Jason Blitman (03:05):
welcome to Gay's
Reading.
Lucas Schaefer (03:06):
Oh, we're on.
We're, this is happening.
I do You know what's so silly?
I have listened to your showmany times and this always
happens, and you do the, youwere like, oh, we're recording,
but we don't have to start.
And I was like, obviously we'reon, because I've been through
this experience, as a listener,but now I've been through it as
(03:26):
a guest.
Jason Blitman (03:28):
Did I, do you
feel like I pulled something
over on you?
Lucas Schaefer (03:31):
No, not at all.
I think as, as soon as someonesays I am recording,
Jason Blitman (03:35):
It's fair
Lucas Schaefer (03:36):
buckle up.
But I was still tricked.
Jason Blitman (03:38):
I'm gonna, but I
didn't even trick
Lucas Schaefer (03:41):
No, you didn't
trick me.
You were No, you were veryforthright.
Jason Blitman (03:44):
We're here to
talk about the slip.
Lucas Schaefer (03:45):
slip
Jason Blitman (03:46):
You have your
finished
Lucas Schaefer (03:47):
I do have my
finished copy and it's got.
It's a two texture situation,which I was not prepared for
when I got it.
But there's the glossy red andthen the more textured finish
The matte?
Yes.
Is that how you say that?
Matte?
Do you say matte?
Jason Blitman (04:01):
M-A-T-T-E.
Lucas Schaefer (04:02):
Yeah.
Is that I've never known.
I've seen the matte.
Yeah.
The Matt.
Jason Blitman (04:07):
Listen, we are
educational on gay reading,
Lucas Schaefer (04:11):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (04:12):
I wanna hear your
elevator pitch for the book, and
then I like, I have a very longlist of things to
Lucas Schaefer (04:18):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (04:19):
Don't wanna talk
about anything specific to the
book because I don't want togive a single thing away about
it.
'cause
Lucas Schaefer (04:25):
I, Greg my
husband was reading a series of
I did a q and a where it wasjust like, I type out the
answers and I gave it to him tobe like, is this okay?
And he was like, you havesomehow managed, because I've
now done a couple weeks ofpromotion, somehow manage in all
of these things to talk aboutsort of the themes in the book
and the issues in the bookwithout saying one thing that
(04:47):
happens in the book.
And I'm like, yes.
That's great.
That's good.
Jason Blitman (04:51):
I don't read
blurbs, going into reading a
Lucas Schaefer (04:54):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (04:54):
I knew boxing and
I knew Texas, and I know you're
gay.
Lucas Schaefer (04:59):
I am.
Jason Blitman (05:00):
I like assumed
some mix of those things
Lucas Schaefer (05:03):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (05:04):
As I was reading,
I was like, what happening?
Lucas Schaefer (05:09):
Yeah.
There's a lot's happening.
Jason Blitman (05:12):
what is your
elevator pitch for
Lucas Schaefer (05:14):
Okay.
So the slip, my name is LucaShaeffer.
The book is called The Slipbecause I see people do that on
your show too.
They do the nice introduc.
Jason Blitman (05:21):
happened one
time.
I said to you, I LucasSchaeffer, welcome to Gay's
Reading
Lucas Schaefer (05:25):
I liked it.
I was, I'm just, I just want I'ma very regular listener.
I'm a very regular listener.
Okay.
So the slip the story of theslip is this, or the pitch of
the slip is this 16-year-oldNathaniel Rothstein is this
miserable high school kid, veryunhappy from Newton,
Massachusetts.
He gets into a fight at schooland his mother, who is sick of
(05:46):
dealing with him, sends him forthe summer of 1998 to live with
his uncle in Austin, Texas.
And in Austin, his uncle setshim up with a volunteer position
at a nursing home, and hebefriends his boss at the
nursing home, who is a Haitianborn Xbox or named David Delise.
And the two of them have thisreally magical kind of summer
(06:08):
where David takes Nathanielunder his wing and starts
training him at a boxing gym.
And Nathaniel really is feelinghimself and finding himself and
coming into his own.
And at the end of this summer,he disappears, and the book is
about what happened to him andfollows a huge cast of
characters over about 14 yearswho are all connected to his
disappearance in some way.
Jason Blitman (06:30):
Perfect.
Very succinct, very thoughtful,
Lucas Schaefer (06:34):
you.
Very rehearsed.
Yes.
Yep.
Done it before.
Yes.
Jason Blitman (06:37):
think that's a
bad thing.
I, as I said moments ago, Istarted reading and I was like,
what the hell is happening?
And so I, when I was about threequarters of the way through,
started to reach out to the twopeople who I knew definitely
read the book.
One being Greg Marshall and onebeing your editor, Tim.
Lucas Schaefer (07:00):
He did.
He mentioned you'd been intouch.
Yes.
He didn't say what you said, buthe said you'd been in touch.
Jason Blitman (07:06):
I was like, I
need to discuss this with other
humans who I know for sure haveread
Lucas Schaefer (07:09):
Yeah, those two
definitely have.
Those two.
Definitely have,
Jason Blitman (07:14):
And I don't want,
again, I don't wanna say too
much because I just was so muchI needed to unpack with other
Lucas Schaefer (07:19):
yeah.
Jason Blitman (07:19):
I was grateful
for that.
If you were sent away for thesummer, where would you go or
where do you think your momwould've sent you?
Lucas Schaefer (07:27):
As punishment or
to be happy?
Jason Blitman (07:30):
The, do you think
there are different places?
you can't be home for thesummer, you need to go here.
Lucas Schaefer (07:34):
I was a camp
kid, like I went to overnight
camp and I love Yeah.
But I loved being sent away.
I was a little theater, gay and.
Jason Blitman (07:43):
What camp did you
go to?
Lucas Schaefer (07:44):
Camp Emerson in
Hinsdale, Massachusetts still
exists.
New ownership the funny thingabout the book is, and I'm sure
we'll get into this, there areall of these characters who
demographically are nothing likeme.
Nathaniel is white and Jewish,so would and is from Newton,
Massachusetts, which is whereI'm from.
So it's presumably the most likeme, but it's also very unlike me
(08:04):
in that I was a good kid andpretty happy and not Nathaniel
is going through it in the book.
As both a reader and a writer, Iwant the big story, the big
narrator.
Like I was never gonna bewriting a slim volume about,
being a gay man in Texas, whichis a very interesting thing to
write about, but it's just notthis book and not my deal.
Jason Blitman (08:24):
Am stuck on
summer camp.
And you said you were a theatergay.
What did, what shows did you doat Summer Camp?
Lucas Schaefer (08:31):
My sort of tour
de force was uh, Euless in, a
funny thing happened on the wayto the forum.
Yes.
I was Snoopy and you're a goodman, Charlie Brown.
I was a shark in a questionableproduction of West Side Story.
I think that might not haveflown in 2025.
I don't know.
Jason Blitman (08:52):
in the context of
this
Lucas Schaefer (08:53):
It's very
relevant to the book.
Very relevant to the book.
I did a bunch.
I was in.
Guys and dolls kiss me, Kate Wedid them all, we did all the
classics.
Jason Blitman (09:01):
Speaking of
questionable, when I was in
summer camp, I of course playedthe Tin Man and The Wiz.
Lucas Schaefer (09:06):
Where did you go
to summer camp?
I,
Jason Blitman (09:08):
It was like a
local theater camp
Lucas Schaefer (09:11):
yeah.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (09:13):
So nothing away,
nothing But yeah the wiz papa
gay in once on this island, lotsof roles that this little white
boy should not have beenplaying.
The book is called The Slip,
Lucas Schaefer (09:25):
yes.
Jason Blitman (09:26):
which am, I'm, I
am questioning my close reader
ness in making this
Lucas Schaefer (09:32):
Yeah.
Yes.
Jason Blitman (09:33):
but.
A slip is a boxing move that Iam sure is not once mentioned in
the book.
Lucas Schaefer (09:42):
Okay.
Your close reading leavessomething to be desired, but
it's mentioned briefly.
It's mentioned briefly.
There are two brief mentions.
There are three brief, there arethree brief mentions, but it's
not,
Jason Blitman (09:53):
it's not like a
whole, a major
Lucas Schaefer (09:56):
It is not a
major thing.
And also it, a slip has manymeanings in the context of this
book and in the context of theworld.
So certainly, and I think youwould I don't know if you would
agree with this, but this is notreally a book where you need to
know anything about boxing toread the book or even enjoy
boxing to enjoy the book.
Jason Blitman (10:14):
I love, as I've
said many times particularly
Friday night lights, a Where youdon't need to know anything
about the sport.
You could just appreciate theworld that you're living in.
Lucas Schaefer (10:23):
Yes.
Jason Blitman (10:23):
What's your
experience with boxing?
Lucas Schaefer (10:26):
My experience.
Okay, so I moved to Austin in2006 when I was 24.
And I kind, I moved herebasically for no reason.
I was like, I graduated college.
I was this, gay kid withwriterly aspirations.
So I moved to Brooklyn, whichseemed like that's where you go.
And I was I like this, but it'svery expensive and I feel like
(10:51):
there are other parts of thecountry that I would like to
see.
And I had a professor who isvery influential in my life who
had lived in Austin previouslyand said, you should give Austin
a try.
So I moved here and I didn'tknow anyone or I knew a couple
people, but di didn't have anyreally close connections.
(11:12):
And I saw an ad for an eveningboxing class.
This was 2006.
This sounds like it's like 1940.
It was 2006.
But they had, they used to havethis thing called informal
classes in Austin, which was runby the University of Texas.
And it was basically they'd putout this giant catalog that had
community classes.
(11:33):
In all different, subjects andyou'd pick it up at the
supermarket or wherever.
And I was like, I'm already inTexas, out of my comfort zone.
Like why not go to a boxing gym?
Because I also don't knowanything about that.
And so I went and really justfell in love with the gym.
I wouldn't say I fell in lovewith boxing.
(11:54):
I ended up going there for fiveor six years.
Very consistently.
Yeah.
To work out.
I was not, I wasn't
Jason Blitman (12:02):
you like I hate
this.
Lucas Schaefer (12:03):
I didn't, oh,
the boxing workout was great.
I've sparred twice in my lifeand spar, that actually is a
generous interpretation of thatword.
I've twice gotten into the ringwith like headgear and the body
cup and I.
Messed around.
And both times it was clear thatthis is not something that
(12:24):
someone who wants to be a writerand needs their brain should be
doing with my skill level, but,which is not very high.
But but I loved the gym it wasthis atmosphere where everyone
was, and for someone who didn'tknow the city, it was so fun
because it was people from theeast side and the west side,
(12:44):
every side of the city, everyrace and class and personality
type.
This is something that I getinto in the book, but it was
just truly this melting potenvironment.
And unlike a lot of environmentsin America where there are lots
of different people, this one.
(13:06):
Felt more like a true meltingpot, like you were working side
by side with other people um,and
Jason Blitman (13:14):
all doing the
same
Lucas Schaefer (13:15):
you're all doing
the same thing.
It felt pretty integrated.
Obviously there were hobbyistslike me and then professional
boxers and amateur boxers, buteven those lines were blurred in
terms of if you're at the heavybag, the person next to you
might be a lawyer or a realtoror a professional boxer or
whatever.
So I was just very enamored withthis world and most of my
(13:39):
friends in those early days inAustin and still to some extent
came from the gym.
And so it, it was always ameaningful place to me.
And I knew early on in mywriting career that it was a
location I would wanna draw frombased on sort of the themes I'm
interested in.
Jason Blitman (13:58):
sure.
And also just like great settingfor a cast of colorful
characters
Lucas Schaefer (14:04):
For part of the
time I was wor working out at
the gym.
I was also a seventh gradeteacher at an all girls school,
and I was teaching English andhistory.
And for a while I was also theseventh grade advisor, which if
I was not a fun job for me.
(14:24):
But but the funny thing wasthere was so much more drama at
the gym than in this seventhgrade classroom.
I was always just like, how isthere Oh, oh.
And there was a lot of drama inseventh grade, there were always
like, just all of the gym dramawas always very compelling to
me.
Jason Blitman (14:44):
Yeah.
When I think about a terribletime in my life, seventh grade
is like pretty high on the list.
Lucas Schaefer (14:50):
I don't
recommend revisiting it as a
teacher either.
I had a good experience, but Iwas ready to retire.
Yes.
Jason Blitman (14:57):
Something that I
loved about the boxing gym or
not loved, but something thatwas, that tickled me a little
bit is that the term wrap up isa way to start where it's so
often a term that's to end.
Lucas Schaefer (15:12):
have never
thought of that.
That is a great point.
Yes.
Because you're wrapping up yourhands, so wrap up.
But that actually means let'sget started.
That is it.
Jason Blitman (15:20):
up.
sounds like it's time to,
Lucas Schaefer (15:22):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (15:23):
your face was so
funny.
You were like, okay, let's,
Lucas Schaefer (15:25):
That's good.
Yeah.
No, that's good.
That's, I like that.
I hadn't thought of that.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (15:31):
Yeah.
Is the gym still a way for youto blow off steam?
Because it's like clearly aplace that people, that's what
people would do.
I guess really, I should say,what is now, at this point in
your life, what is
Lucas Schaefer (15:39):
yes.
I'm a Peloton or I'm a Pelotonperson.
I go to the YMCA, which is, doesnot have, I would say, does not
have the drama of the gym, butdoes have the characters.
Um, A lot of,
Jason Blitman (15:55):
YMCA have a
Peloton, or do you have one at
home?
Lucas Schaefer (15:57):
no, I have a
Peloton at home.
The Peloton I would not want todo in public.
I don't think
Jason Blitman (16:03):
Is it because of
sweating?
Is it
Lucas Schaefer (16:05):
sweating.
It's facial expressions.
It's like, you know, yelling outthe encouraging things we're
supposed to yell out.
It's just not, it doesn't needto be,
Jason Blitman (16:16):
gonna get stuck
in the clip?
Am I gonna fall over?
Lucas Schaefer (16:18):
it does not need
to be.
Seen in, in public me doing thePeloton but those are my two
those are my two.
And actually since having achild, the other thing that
I've, in movies there's peopleare always like sitting in cars
before they like go inside.
And I was like, never, I never,I was like, why are they just,
and now I'm always like, I justneed five minutes, like in the
(16:41):
car.
So that's my other, I don't knowif that's blowing off steam, but
that's something I nowunderstand on a very deep level,
just
Jason Blitman (16:48):
A little reset
moment to yourself,
Lucas Schaefer (16:52):
exactly.
Jason Blitman (16:52):
A moment of
silence, if you will.
Okay.
A, don't wanna say major plotpoint'cause yes it is major plot
point, but this isn't anythinggiving anything A major theme.
Lucas Schaefer (17:03):
yeah.
Jason Blitman (17:04):
a major motif is
a sex hotline.
Lucas Schaefer (17:08):
Yes,
Jason Blitman (17:09):
Have you ever
called one?
Have you ever worked for one?
Lucas Schaefer (17:13):
I have, no, I
was, I have never called the sex
hotline.
I was a little the story is setin 1998 when I was in high
school, when Nathaniel was inhigh school, and this is like
the end of the phone sex hotlineera because the inter.
Jason Blitman (17:30):
a hundred percent
sure we could find one right
Lucas Schaefer (17:33):
No, you
absolutely can.
You a, you definitely can findthem.
And I actually have done someresearch into this because the
phone text hotline is a one 900number, and really by 1998, a
lot of those were not one 900numbers, but it just, it 900
number.
Everyone knows what that means.
So we decided not to get toocute with it.
(17:55):
I have never called a phone sexhotline.
Jason Blitman (17:57):
Not even for
research.
is disappointing to me.
I'm not gonna lie
Lucas Schaefer (18:01):
No I am so
sorry.
I feel like the,
Jason Blitman (18:05):
to wanna call one
right now, I like, can't I
Lucas Schaefer (18:07):
I feel like the
equivalent of that for a gay
person of my generation was morelike the chat room, which that I
had experience with.
I.
Jason Blitman (18:17):
I will say
something very specific about
the book for me was its likeatmosphere and vibe and the
nineties, two thousands,nostalgia transformation of
technology was something that Ivery much lived through
Lucas Schaefer (18:32):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (18:32):
Felt in my body
while reading the book.
And I was taken immediately tothe chat rooms.
Lucas Schaefer (18:38):
Yeah.
I, there's a different chat roomvibe and also the character
Belinda, who's this 41-year-oldphone sex operator, hairdresser,
sort of jack of all trades.
Jason Blitman (18:51):
Yes.
Multihyphenate.
I think we would call themtoday.
Lucas Schaefer (18:54):
It's intentional
that she's, really working to
make ends meet and has this jobthat is a dying trade.
That, that's not talked aboutthere, but it seems fitting with
everything else we know abouther, that she has this job
that's like on the way out
Jason Blitman (19:08):
did you have an
internet boyfriend?
Lucas Schaefer (19:10):
Like a
consistent internet boyfriend?
I did.
Jason Blitman (19:13):
or a, was there
when we talk about chat room,
was there like some, you've gotmail sort of way you were
excited when that person wasonline or that person
Lucas Schaefer (19:23):
Oh yeah.
I,
Jason Blitman (19:24):
might not have
known their real
Lucas Schaefer (19:25):
yeah.
Oh, for sure.
For sure.
I don't think I was like, Idon't wanna say dilu.
I don't think I had dilutedmyself into thinking, oh, this
is like gonna be the person Ispend the rest of my life with.
Jason Blitman (19:36):
Oh sure.
No, I deluded myself just to belike, this person on this
magical box in front of me caresabout me, and we have a
connection in quotes, whateverthat means.
I never ever thought we'd
Lucas Schaefer (19:50):
The big thing I,
Jason Blitman (19:52):
by whatever, XX
Lucas Schaefer (19:56):
right.
The, there were, I had a fewpeople I met in chatroom
atmospheres, who then becamelike a IM like aim friends.
So that was like the next, thatwas the next level because, with
aim, it was also just you'relike, high school friends or
college friends or whoever.
I do miss aol instant messenger,I,
Jason Blitman (20:16):
Yeah.
There was the like weirdanonymity, yet very personal
connection about it.
Especially in the gay community,there's Grindr and Scruff and
all the apps, and so the thingsare very photo and location
forward, it was always a SL,right?
Lucas Schaefer (20:36):
And as a writer,
it's funny.
First of all, Greg, my husbandand I have been married or have
been together so long that weactually met like pre-app.
And so like I, if I were to haveto write about Grindr, I would
have to do I don't even know thebasic terms.
But I would also say as awriter, I think 1998 is a really
(21:00):
appealing time, dramaticallybecause there are some cell
phones.
Like cell phones play a role inthis story, but they're not
equipped with the internet, soyou can't just get.
All of misinformation rightthen, and not everyone has one.
One of the things about thisbook is that it is a mystery.
It's other things as well, butyou do hopefully want to know
(21:24):
what happened to Nathaniel, andyou do find out it's not, this
is not an ambiguous it ending.
So the mystery is solved.
And when you're writing amystery, it's really helpful to
have times when people can't getinformation just in their pocket
immediately.
So it's an appealing, appealing,it was an appealing time period
for me to set a book in.
Jason Blitman (21:45):
That was the
energy.
I think when I reached out toGreg and Tim, I was just like, I
cannot read this book fastenough.
My brain and my eyeballs cannotread fast enough.
I need to know what happens.
And I knew instinctively that Iwould learn, so I was like
devouring it, and I think that'swhy I missed the three mentions
(22:06):
of the slip.
So that's my
Lucas Schaefer (22:07):
The the other
thing I will say is, I think
this book is really, hopefullyfun, but it is it, but it is
long.
It's a long, it's a long,you're, this is a, and I I'm an
audio book listener as well as areader, and I just love as a
listener when you can justsettle in and it's 20 hours
taken care of doing your chores,whatever.
(22:29):
So that's, that was not I knew Iwanted to write this big,
complicated, hefty thing.
Jason Blitman (22:35):
It is so funny
that this comes up naturally in
this conversation I was at theTexas Book Festival this year
and of course had coffee withGreg Marshall, your husband, and
in turn received a, aninscribed, an autographed galley
Lucas Schaefer (22:51):
Yes,
Jason Blitman (22:52):
And in it you
mention that I'm not able to
listen to this on three X speed,like Barbara Streisand.
And I, it was so funny because Iwas like, again, three quarters
of the way through and I waslike, dammit, Lucas, I wish I
could listen at three X speedjust so that I could like devour
the story faster.
Lucas Schaefer (23:10):
It is not as
long as that bug.
Jason Blitman (23:12):
no.
Oh God
Lucas Schaefer (23:13):
this is yes.
Jason Blitman (23:14):
it's not a 700
page,
Lucas Schaefer (23:16):
No.
Jason Blitman (23:17):
book.
And a lot happens and then thereare
Lucas Schaefer (23:19):
A lot does
happen.
Yes.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (23:21):
But no I could
not listen to it on three x and
I desperately wanted to knowwhat happens.
Let's, we could talk, let's talkmore about
Lucas Schaefer (23:27):
Yeah.
Let's do it.
Jason Blitman (23:28):
really this
identity story.
I am so intrigued that it is nota gay book.
It is not a like capital G
Lucas Schaefer (23:39):
Yes.
And it's not being marketed, Iwould say, as a gay book, right?
Jason Blitman (23:43):
I wasn't under
any illusion that it
Lucas Schaefer (23:45):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (23:45):
It just so
happens that this is, this
episode is coming out on June3rd.
It's June 3rd, happy Bride,
Lucas Schaefer (23:52):
pride.
Yes.
Yes.
Jason Blitman (23:54):
I love that it's
not a Capital G gay book.
And.
You look like you're gonna, youwanna respond to that?
Tell say
Lucas Schaefer (24:00):
No, there are
definitely gay characters and
queer characters in the book,but, I was really interested in
this idea that I first startedreally thinking about at the
real boxing gym of all of thesedifferent types of people coming
together and what opportunitiesarise there and what tensions
arise there.
(24:21):
And part of writing that book isit can't be a capital G gay book
because it's all of thesedifferent things.
And I don't think this bookwould've been written.
It certainly wouldn't have beenwritten the same way if I wasn't
gay.
Because I think your sensibilityis just influenced by being gay
(24:46):
in the world.
And I certainly, there's.
There's a particular section ofthe book I think is especially
focused on gender and sexuality,but yeah, I liked that it's it's
gay, but not gay.
Gay, but not capital G gk.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, yeah.
Jason Blitman (25:03):
You talk about
your sensibility as a gay person
being able to write this book.
Lucas Schaefer (25:07):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (25:08):
what does
identity mean to you?
What does that sensibility meanto you?
What are some elements that youfeel like are, make you the
writer that you are?
Lucas Schaefer (25:18):
I set two
different guidelines for myself,
and I think this is instructivein thinking about identity.
One was that all of thesecharacters needed to be singular
characters.
Nathaniel is not meant torepresent every Jewish white
teenager.
David is not every immigrantfrom Haiti.
These are people with veryspecific wants and desires and
(25:42):
what brings them joy and whatbrings them pain.
I wanted to really nail down allof those elements of character
for every single character inthe book.
On the flip side, there is alsothe reality that we live in the
world, like the book is set inour actual world, and all of us
are how we're treated, how wetreat ourselves.
(26:06):
How we're seen by broadersociety, by subsections of
society.
All of that depends on ourindividual identities, right?
So, Both of those things had tobe true.
And another way I've put thisbefore is if I'm writing two gay
characters who are white, let'ssay those two characters are
gonna be completely differentbecause they're completely
(26:26):
different people.
But if the book is said in 1998,neither of them can serve in the
military.
Neither of them can get married.
Those are just facts of thecountry of that at that time.
And how they react to that maybe different, but the fact is
there, right?
And that's something for them tocontend with.
Jason Blitman (26:44):
Is it because you
were gay in the nineties that
you are aware of sensibilitiesof identity and maybe a straight
white man coming of age in thenineties wouldn't, wouldn't be
top of mind.
Lucas Schaefer (26:59):
I think, yeah,
that's it.
No, I.
Jason Blitman (27:02):
Impose the fact
that a straight writer can't
understand identity politics,but.
Lucas Schaefer (27:10):
No, I think
that's a great question.
What I would say is I think whatunites all of the characters in
this book and is something Idefinitely drew on from my
personal experience just asmyself and being gay, Is all of
them in one way or another areseen by others as supporting
players or comic relief or justnot really that important,
(27:35):
right?
These are the side characters.
And that's true for David, whois this activities director at
the nursing home, who is faces alot of.
Nasty stuff from the people atthe nursing home.
He's worked at this nursing homefrom 1970 until 1998.
And he is this Haitian bornblack man and has experienced
(27:59):
all sorts of characters comingthrough this nursing home,
including people who were likenot that many generations
removed from like the Civil War.
So from him to Nathaniel who isstraight and white, but is also.
Feels very marginalized in hismostly white community.
To a lot of the other charactershave this same feeling of just,
(28:22):
I am not getting to be theprotagonist in my own life.
And I think a lot of the momentsof tension in this book come
when those people say, actuallyI'm, I am gonna be the main
character in this story.
And so you have a lot ofcharacters who are fighting for
real estate in this book becausethey're saying, I have gone
(28:43):
through life being seen by somepeople in this one way.
Or maybe I've seen myself thatone way.
And I have reached my limit withthat.
And I think, I think, I don'twanna speak for all gay people,
but I think this is somethingother gay people may relate to,
is this feeling of oh my God, welove having a gay friend.
Or, whatever.
(29:04):
But, that's not who most peopleI think want to be.
I think most people don't aspireto be like the best friend.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (29:12):
There are gay
people, there are black people,
there are homeless people, thereare all sorts of people in the
book..
Lucas Schaefer (29:18):
Well, and I
really wanted to also lean into
the issues associated with allof those things like the, the
David and Nathan.
I mean, a lot of the Nathanielsection is him thinking about
race, his observations aboutrace, often cringeworthy
observations.
But I kind of want to go thereand like be thinking, you know,
(29:40):
because part of the book islike, it's this, this white high
school kid from a largely whitehigh school, a largely white
community, doesn't really haveblack friends, doesn't have
black friends, and is suddenlyin this position where his
supervisor is black and it, heis thinking a lot.
About that.
And I wanted that to inform thestory.
(30:02):
That was important to me.
And I think the other thing thatrelates to that with David and
Nathaniel, I think when you're awriter who is, and I think this
is especially true with race andespecially true with white
writers who are.
You know, writing non-whitecharacters.
But I think when you're writingsomeone who is not like you
(30:22):
there, there can be a tendencyto create characters who are
almost too good.
Right.
Because you don't want to stepon anyone's toes.
Right.
And I was very aware of thatgoing in.
It's like, no, if you are gonnawrite.
This character of David, like heneeds to be a fully formed
character and he needs to makemistakes.
(30:44):
Yeah, he needs to make mistakes.
He needs to make bad decisions.
He needs to do all the things,all the rest of us do.
And that was sort of a guidingprinciple throughout.
Not that every character needsto always make the wrong
decision, but like, I didn'twant.
I, I kind of did a number ofthings, I think to kind of take
the guardrails off because Ireally wanted to kind of go
(31:08):
there and think deeply aboutkind of this white kid I.
Interacting with this blackmentor and all of the
complications and, and, andtensions and, and opportunities
that arise in that relationship.
And in order to do that, I mean,David, you know, I mean he
(31:28):
really makes some bad decisions,I would say in this, in this
book.
And that was.
Important to me as long as itwent with his character.
I mean, one of the interestingthings with Nathaniel is there
are a couple lines in the bookthat when we're in Nathaniel's
head, sort of in his interiormonologue where early readers,
like a number of different earlyreaders, were like, I think you
(31:51):
should cut this line.
And it's like, what?
Why should I cut this line?
And it's like, it's just, it'slike really cringey.
It is uncomfortable to read.
People are really, it, it's justnot, it doesn't land well.
And my question was always inthinking about this, both to
them but also to myself waslike, is this what Nathaniel
would be thinking?
Jason Blitman (32:11):
Mm.
Lucas Schaefer (32:12):
And the answer
was, unfortunately yes.
Right?
So, so there are a few momentswhere it's like, oh, this is
like really uncomfortable.
Like why is he saying this?
And it's like, well, I thinkthis is what this character.
You know, based on everything weknow about him, unfortunately
this is how he sees the worldand it just doesn't make sense
(32:34):
to not have it in there.
So, so I had to just lean intocomplication in the book, Greg
and I have talked about thisalso, but it, this is part of
the reason why I didn't want towrite a satire because there,
there are elements of the bookthat are funny and maybe a
little bit absurd.
Um, I, I do think it's basicallysaid in our actual world, I
(32:57):
didn't want to do anything to.
Kind of give me permission tonot be thinking deeply about
this stuff.
Like to be able to say, oh,that's, you know, it's a joke.
You know, this is supposed to befunny.
Or, you know, any of thosethings.
Jason Blitman (33:10):
it's not rooted
in reality.
Lucas Schaefer (33:11):
It's not rooted
in reality.
Jason Blitman (33:13):
do something even
crazier than,
Lucas Schaefer (33:16):
Exactly.
I wanted to just remove thoseguardrails and say, you know,
this is this.
situation that is happening andhere are how the characters, I
think, would act and, and thisis what it's based on, and just
let the chips fall where theymay
Jason Blitman (33:35):
And the reality
is if the book came out in
Lucas Schaefer (33:38):
I.
Jason Blitman (33:39):
nobody would
that, and I,
Lucas Schaefer (33:42):
I don't think, I
don't think though, that I
would've been able to write thebook in 2002 because I don't
think, I think all of the, Ithink all of these conversations
about kind of.
Representation and you know, whoquote unquote can write what I
(34:03):
mean, I think those are reallyimportant conversations and I
think they really informed thebook that I did.
Right?
Like, I don't think this bookwould exist in, in 2002.
It would be, I
Jason Blitman (34:12):
no, no.
It, it would not.
I think my point really is thatit is a period piece.
Lucas Schaefer (34:18):
It is, it, it,
it is, but I, I think what I'm.
I think what's interesting to meabout the point you just made
and, and really did inform a lotof the book was like, I started
this in 2013 and that was like,orange is the new Black era and
did you watch Orange Is The NewBlack?
Oh, you, you know.
Yeah, right.
(34:38):
That's all.
We didn't need the last, thelast 20% could be avoided, but,
um, you know, the, the wholething with that show was it was
like, oh, it's this white.
Lady who's sort of our entrywayinto this more diverse
population, assuming I, I thinkthat most of the viewers, I
guess, would be white and neededthat sort of guide, and I really
(35:01):
wanted to explore this reallyvaried world without kind of
like the guide.
Character.
Um, and that's not a knock onthat show, which I enjoyed
watching.
But, you know, I think in, Ithink the 2002 version of this
would be as diverse a group, butthere'd kind of be the Lucas
(35:24):
character who's maybe the centerof the universe.
Um, and that's not an i, I don'thave a specific book in mind,
the sense like I'm sort ofcasting aspersions, but.
Jason Blitman (35:34):
Well, and I also
have to say, you know, me saying
it's a period piece is reallyan, it's a disservice to the
book that you wrote because itand it, and it, because that's
not, it's true and it's untrue.
It is a comment on a periodpiece.
Right.
It is a, it is a, it's a memorypiece.
Lucas Schaefer (35:52):
Yeah, I, I mean,
I think it's, I, I also do think
it's a period piece in that, Imean, I had, it's so like 1998.
I mean it, that, that aspect,but it does go, yeah.
Jason Blitman (36:03):
to elicit
conversation about race, about
gender, about sexuality, aboutdiversity.
That wasn't possible then.
And so it's like as the, I don'treally know what I'm trying to
articulate or how I'm trying toarticulate, but I feel like it
is a, it is a period piece for acontemporary audience and both
(36:25):
things sort of work in tandemwith each other.
Lucas Schaefer (36:27):
Well, one of the
things I really like about how
the book came out is I do thinkit's.
Very much about our currentmoment.
And actually, and this I, Idon't want to get into just
because I think it is toocomplicated with the plot, but I
mean, there are things happeningright now in our country that
(36:47):
happen in this book that when Iwrote the book seemed like,
okay, this could happen.
Or maybe it's happened once, butthis is unusual and.
You know, so it's definitelyabout 2025, even though I
started it in 2013 and it takesplace in 1998 and,
Jason Blitman (37:04):
is, I mean, and
you, you saying it's about 2025
is why I'm saying calling it aperiod piece is reductive,
Lucas Schaefer (37:11):
gotcha.
Jason Blitman (37:12):
a period.
Right.
Like it's,
Lucas Schaefer (37:13):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (37:14):
why I think it's
a, a symbiotic,
Lucas Schaefer (37:16):
But yeah, I
mean, but I do think the, the
fundamental issue with all ofthe discussion about, writing
outside your quote livedexperience or whatever is this
question of why, like, why areyou doing this?
There's one line in the bookwhere, uh.
It, it, it involves someonewho's complaining about
political correctness.
And the response is, if, if youcan't, you know, if you can't
(37:38):
say anything anymore, why am Ialways hearing the sound of your
voice, right?
Like, I don't, I'm notinterested in the kind of like I
have the.
The right to say, you know,everyone has the right to say
whatever they wanna say,obviously, or write whatever
they wanna write.
I think the question is like,why are you doing that?
You know, thinking of that likeAlexander cheap piece or, or
(37:59):
whatever.
Um, I.
And, and you know, that was afundamental, the why is, is in
this case, there's a veryfundamental reason, right?
Which is, this is a book aboutwhat happens when all of these
lines that divide us start tofade away.
(38:19):
And in some cases those arereally funny things.
Terrifying things.
Poignant things.
But things happen when thathappens.
And.
In order for that to happen, Ineeded this big, varied, diverse
cast.
Jason Blitman (38:35):
Mm-hmm.
Well, and it's funny'cause likethe, I don't wanna use the term
extreme because things.
When, when lines go away,extreme things can happen, but
depending on who you are,something extreme can be
different or each thing can bemean, something different to
you,
Lucas Schaefer (38:53):
Yes, yes.
I think that's very true and,and some of the like sort of.
Offenses in this book are thethings that incite other things,
like our very big things.
But then some are like quitesmall.
Yeah, small or silly orwhatever.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (39:10):
all, I mean,
there's a quote in the book
that's, that's to notice is tocare.
And I think
Lucas Schaefer (39:16):
That's in my
book.
Jason Blitman (39:17):
it's in your book
Lucas Schaefer (39:18):
Oh, good.
Okay.
See, now we're even, we, we've.
Jason Blitman (39:25):
Um, that's like
one tiny
Lucas Schaefer (39:28):
Uh, yes.
I Now that, now that, now thatyou say it, I'm, I can, yeah.
Jason Blitman (39:33):
and I just think
that like part of what you're
describing too is that You seepeople, right?
And I think you, and you noticepeople and you care about
people.
And what you were describingabout putting the secondary
characters on the page andgiving them their stories,
Lucas Schaefer (39:49):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (39:49):
me that's
noticing.
And so in turn, you're, it's,you're caring, right?
And unfortunately, that alsomeans we're putting these people
in.
Very complicated situationsometimes.
Lucas Schaefer (40:02):
Yeah,
Jason Blitman (40:02):
really is that I,
I, it
Lucas Schaefer (40:03):
I,
Jason Blitman (40:04):
it comes across
in a, in a meaningful way.
Lucas Schaefer (40:08):
When I was a kid
it was, we were really in that
colorblind era.
Like my education was like, oh,everyone's the same, LA la, la.
You know?
And then obviously we've movedreally into.
Acknowledging difference andacknowledging privilege and all
of these, yeah, all of thesereally important conversations.
(40:29):
One of the questions of the bookis can you acknowledge the
difference and also find.
Some shared humanity.
Right?
Um, or, or like how do youbalance those things or how do
you, you know, really havecandid conversations about race
and sexuality and class andprivilege?
(40:51):
And also, hold onto this sharedsense of, of humanity and
purpose.
And it, it's not, I don't thinkthe book has an answer to that
question, but I think it's, it,it orbits that question.
Jason Blitman (41:04):
All of that makes
sense.
I was just gonna say thank youfor unpacking all of that and
this is one of those perfectmoments of a listener being
like, I don't know what
Lucas Schaefer (41:12):
What you're
talking about.
Yes.
Yes.
Jason Blitman (41:14):
I was thinking a
lot about manifestation and
destiny and fate the nuanceddifferences between those terms.
And I never really thought ofthem as different things before,
but, and I purposefully didn'tGoogle prior to this
(41:35):
conversation'cause I like didn'twant to come in with a
definitive answer.
But I'm curious, does, say,destiny and fate what does that,
what is there a difference toyou?
Lucas Schaefer (41:46):
I have never
thought of that.
I think they a, I do thinkthere's.
Some sense in this book thatyour fate is malleable?
I dunno if I wanna, I dunno if Iwanna say more, but
Jason Blitman (42:02):
think and I,
Lucas Schaefer (42:03):
I,
Jason Blitman (42:03):
oh and I think,
and I think maybe that's where
my thought process was inthinking through the differences
in my Fate is not malleable,
Lucas Schaefer (42:17):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (42:18):
faded.
And I guess Say something isdestined, but like for me,
destiny can be manifested.
And I don't think fate can be.
Lucas Schaefer (42:27):
Yeah, that's
interesting.
There is a line towards the endof the book where a character
has this, actually, I don'tthink a character has this
realization.
I think the, our omniscientnarrator just says it that, when
things happen and they seemfaded, it just means you were
ready.
For them to happen.
Jason Blitman (42:44):
There is a sign
from the universe is an excuse,
not permission.
Lucas Schaefer (42:49):
Oh, did I write
that?
Yeah.
Okay.
That sounds good.
Good job, Lucas.
Okay.
Yeah.
It's that in that vein.
Right?
Um, And I do think that's true.
I do think that's true.
Jason Blitman (43:02):
yeah.
in my mind, and again, like wedon't, I don't wanna get into
any details about the book,
Lucas Schaefer (43:07):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (43:08):
but if fate is
the thing that happens at the Of
Lucas Schaefer (43:11):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (43:11):
if it's the
ending, then Destiny is journey.
Think is what, I don't know.
I've been thinking a lot aboutthat since reading the book
because,
Lucas Schaefer (43:22):
is Okay.
I like that.
Yeah, I, it's funny because anumber of readers have said that
this is a theme of the book,which I agree with, but I, it
was not one I went in thinkingabout or feeling strongly about,
but I'm thinking about it morenow.
Jason Blitman (43:36):
I tend to
underline things as I read, and
I never know will be interestingwhen I get to the end of the
book.
And so then I, as I prep for theconversation, I let you know, go
through back through all thethings that I've underlined.
Something early on in the bookis just a conversation about uh.
boxing gym being anywhere andeverywhere, even if there's not
(44:00):
a physical building, A state ofmind, it could be a,
Lucas Schaefer (44:03):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (44:03):
anyway, there was
something about that and once I
finished the book, I was like,oh, that
Lucas Schaefer (44:09):
Yes,
Jason Blitman (44:10):
is what teed us
up for the entire
Lucas Schaefer (44:12):
that is true.
That, yes.
Yeah.
And that part was intentional,right?
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (44:18):
of course.
But in my mind,
Lucas Schaefer (44:19):
No,
Jason Blitman (44:19):
the, that was the
fate of it all, and that's where
manifestation and fate really
Lucas Schaefer (44:23):
of course.
Jason Blitman (44:25):
maybe
accidentally.
But,
Lucas Schaefer (44:26):
Yeah.
No.
I love that.
Jason Blitman (44:27):
Yeah.
And you also say you can'tcreate a world that you can't
imagine,
Lucas Schaefer (44:34):
That, yes.
Some someone's right.
A teacher that's Yes.
A yeah.
Jason Blitman (44:39):
I think maybe
that also ties back to the
conversation about you being theperson who wrote the
Lucas Schaefer (44:46):
Oh, for sure.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (44:47):
I mentioned, I
reached out to Greg, your
husband, when I was reading thebook, and he said, you have to
ask Lucas where the inspirationfor David came from.
Lucas Schaefer (44:57):
Okay, d David,
let me give a little context to
readers.
Dave, Nathaniel starts,Nathaniel comes to Austin.
He's working for this guy David,who's essentially the activities
director at this nursing home.
And David's whole thing, he,every summer he has a volunteer
work for him.
This is how the nursing homeworks.
And it invariably is a boy whois a little bit like Nathaniel,
(45:22):
like someone's, it's always afavor for someone.
In this case it's his unclesomeone on the board of
trustees, et cetera.
And David tells Nathaniel thesereally graphic.
Stories of his own sexualexperiences, which are basically
all made up.
He, David is this happilymarried guy, but this is his
(45:46):
sort of like midlife not midlifecrisis, but this is, the book
gets into why he does this.
Like this is actually a centralquestion of the book is of the
early part of the book, I wouldsay is like why is David
behaving in this way?
And he's also using Nathaniel'sown preconceptions about what it
means to be black in regards tosexuality against Nathaniel or
(46:09):
he's playing up what Nathanielperceives from pop culture or
from, yeah from his imagination,from his family, whatever.
So when I was in high school, Iwas a bellhop at a hotel and my,
I did have someone like this whoI worked with who was.
Really a fantastic mentor in theways of hotel telling.
(46:34):
But would basically do whatDavid does tell these like
really graphic sexual stories,which as a gay teenager, I think
if I had a more, like I was withthe theater kids and the
newspaper kids and the speechteam kids, like we were not
talking like this.
I think maybe if I had an olderbrother or was just in a
(46:56):
different milieu, like itwouldn't have been that shocking
to me.
And it is like this heavyweightpremise, like one of the ways
the book started was thinkingback like, why.
Why was he doing this?
And I don't know in his case, ifthe stories were true or not.
And they were often not evenstories, like in the book,
they're very much stories aboutwhat David has done in real
(47:19):
life.
It was even more like, a womanwould be walking by and it would
be like, the most elaboratefantasy would be
Jason Blitman (47:26):
he would
Lucas Schaefer (47:27):
relayed to me.
I was like 16 and I was in, Ilike, I don't think he knew I
was gay, but maybe he knew I wasgay.
That was a question.
And I was just like what waslike, was he just bored?
And he was a really, I, someoneI really was very kind to me and
really looked at for me becauseit the funny thing about this
job was I don't know how I gotthe job because everyone else at
(47:49):
the hotel, this was their job.
Because you can make a lot of.
You can make good money.
I say bellhop, we were really,doorman was the title.
And there was more to it thanjust the bags though that was a
big part of it.
But I had somehow fallen intothis job a boy among men because
no one else was a high schoolkid doing this job at this
(48:11):
hotel.
And I don't know, I was alwaysjust like, what?
Why were we having theseconversations?
And I wasn't like, offended bythem or
Jason Blitman (48:20):
it's it is a very
specific thing.
Lucas Schaefer (48:23):
it's very
specific.
I was very impression and I wasjust always so like befuddled
and like never knew like what tosay.
And I was also, I will say to mycredit, I knew enough to not try
to I.
Have my own made up sexualadventures or like even say
anything about, anything.
(48:44):
I was basically just this silentpartner, which probably for him
was part of the fun of it.
But I'm just seeing myexpressions.
Jason Blitman (48:51):
to him?
Lucas Schaefer (48:52):
I don't, he,
Jason Blitman (48:53):
him?
Do you know his name?
Lucas Schaefer (48:54):
I do, I have
never been able to find
basically any, it's so funny.
This is also, I went to, I wasborn in 1982, and this is also
true actually with my teachersfrom like middle and high
school.
Like they're all people who arelike, not on the internet.
Jason Blitman (49:13):
Weird.
Lucas Schaefer (49:14):
Some are, I have
some like Instagram friends who
are like old teachers, butespecially elementary school,
right?
This is these are likepre-internet people.
And I feel like this about someof the people I've worked with
in, in more high school too,where like they might be like in
the White pages, right?
But not there's not a, aGoogleable thing about them.
(49:36):
And I'm happy.
The story has gone so far fromth that initial.
Jason Blitman (49:43):
no.
Of course.
I would just be so curious,where is he now?
Is he alive?
Does he remember having theseconversations with
impressionable young people?
Lucas Schaefer (49:52):
I will say
having been around more people
and grown older, I think I do,I'd be curious to talk to some
of my high school friends whowere like a little more rough
and tumble because I have afeeling that they probably.
Would have not found this evenremotely eyebrow raising.
But to me, I was just like thissheltered.
(50:14):
Like it was just not, I was justnot ready.
Jason Blitman (50:17):
don't mean to be
like wagging a finger at this
guy.
You know what I mean?
It's, I'm not,
Lucas Schaefer (50:22):
No, no.
Jason Blitman (50:23):
very normal for
that time especially.
Lucas Schaefer (50:26):
Yeah.
No one was heard in the creationof these stories.
But yeah, so that's where thatdynamic came from.
And just,
Jason Blitman (50:35):
that.
How long were you at the hotel
Lucas Schaefer (50:37):
I worked there
for a bunch of summers in high
school and college and somedifferent people came and went,
but
Jason Blitman (50:43):
theater camp?
I,
Lucas Schaefer (50:45):
oh yes.
Yes.
That was yours.
Yours had passed.
Yours had passed.
Jason Blitman (50:49):
okay, so you
weren't doing that when you were
in high school.
I'm sort of disappointed andmaybe that's why you like,
didn't play Harold
Lucas Schaefer (50:56):
Oh, I can tell
you the end of my theater career
if you wanna know.
W what?
It's actually really fun.
I will say in defense, I'm goingto, it's gonna sound like I'm
throwing my dad under the bushere, but I'm I in his defense,
I, by the time of the end of10th grade, was really like a
newspaper kid and had likeoutgrown theater a little bit
(51:17):
for me.
But I was cast in 10th grade ina chorus line, which we did in
that was the high school springmusical, which appears in the
book.
And I was Mike who sings thesong.
I Can Do That, which is like atap dancing number, which I did
not know how to do.
And I was not especiallycoordinated and I was so proud
(51:40):
by the time of the show at howgood my dance, I was like, man,
like maybe I can be aprofessional dancer.
Like I'm so good.
And my dad saw me after thefirst show and he said, oh man,
that was really great.
He was like, you did so well.
I know the dancing was like,you'd worked so hard on it.
He was like, in the kick line,you were only like a beat
(52:02):
behind.
And I was like, oh.
So that, I think that was, Ithink I maybe did one more.
I I did taming of the Shrewafter that, and then I became
like an editor at the newspaperand that, that was my thing.
Jason Blitman (52:17):
Okay.
You were only one beat behindeveryone was on the one and you
were on the two
Lucas Schaefer (52:22):
Yes.
And I actually I have a kickline joke in the book as well
Jason Blitman (52:26):
So funny.
Oh, man.
That's okay.
Dad, you weren't throwing himunder the bus.
Lucas Schaefer (52:30):
No.
It, no.
He was not, no, it wasn'tintentionally mean.
It was just, I, it's alwaysstuck with me.
Jason Blitman (52:35):
Oh,
Lucas Schaefer (52:36):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (52:36):
called drama.
Lucas Schaefer (52:37):
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
I somehow worked through it, but
Jason Blitman (52:41):
I love it.
Lucas Schaeffer, thank you somuch for being here.
Lucas Schaefer (52:44):
thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Thanks for talking about theslip.
Jason Blitman (52:48):
of the Slip by
Luca Schafer out now.
Great
Lucas Schaefer (52:52):
I,
Jason Blitman (52:52):
term that appears
in the book three times.
Find them and call me out.
I was devouring it, that's whatwas going on.
Lucas Schaefer (53:00):
No, thank you
very much for having me.
I, this was fun,
Jason Blitman (53:03):
my pleasure and
happy pride.
Lucas Schaefer (53:05):
happy pride.
I.
Harper! (53:07):
Guest Gay Reader time!
Jason Blitman (53:11):
It is June right
now.
So happy pride.
That's, this is what I'm doing,
Mike Curato (53:15):
what's, oh, it's
June.
Oh my
Jason Blitman (53:17):
right?
Yes.
It's June.
Mike Curato (53:19):
I wish it felt like
June.
Jason Blitman (53:21):
I know.
I wish, I felt like June.
Emotionally.
Mike Curato (53:25):
yeah.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (53:27):
Mike Rado, I'm
very happy that you're here.
Thank you for being my guest gayreader today.
I,
Mike Curato (53:31):
oh, thanks so much
for having me.
Jason Blitman (53:33):
I love that we
are giving like complimentary
colored sweaters.
Mike Curato (53:40):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (53:41):
and the yellow.
Uhhuh.
Uhhuh.
Mike Curato (53:43):
Yeah.
I love a duo tone,
Jason Blitman (53:45):
Yeah.
Exactly.
We would look good standing nextto each other right now if we
were in real life.
How are you today?
Mike Curato (53:52):
I'm good.
To get it done,
Jason Blitman (53:54):
uhhuh?
Uhhuh.
Uhhuh.
Mike Curato (53:56):
the list.
Jason Blitman (53:57):
Whatever it is,
we are trying to get it done
Mike Curato (54:00):
always a list.
Jason Blitman (54:01):
right.
It always needs to get done.
Mike Curato (54:03):
Yes.
Jason Blitman (54:05):
What I'm, where
are you?
This is I'm so ex This thelittle background that you're
giving me, I am ecstatic about,
Mike Curato (54:13):
my gracious drawing
room as Patsy Stone would say.
Jason Blitman (54:16):
is it actually,
oh no, it's,
Mike Curato (54:18):
not like the
Jason Blitman (54:19):
No.
Mike Curato (54:19):
not like where I
draw,
Jason Blitman (54:20):
of course.
You
Mike Curato (54:21):
I
Jason Blitman (54:21):
a person who does
graphic novels, this is very
confusing,
Mike Curato (54:25):
Every room is the
drawing
Jason Blitman (54:26):
right?
Mike Curato (54:27):
But yeah I do sit
on this couch from time to time
and do my
Jason Blitman (54:31):
And draw and
doodle.
Mike Curato (54:33):
Is the, the sun.
Jason Blitman (54:36):
See if, in order
to fully understand, it has to
be said in a very specific way,the drawing room.
Mike Curato (54:42):
you have to draw
Jason Blitman (54:43):
Exactly.
Yes.
Thank you for the clarification.
Very confusing, but I'm loving.
Is it gingham?
Is it stripes?
Is it's hard to tell, but thedrapes are.
Mike Curato (54:58):
not even showing.
I'm like, it's it's not quiteeither.
It's,
Jason Blitman (55:03):
It's like a
little bick.
Gingham, a little bit stripe.
We have colorful pillows.
Mike Curato (55:08):
Yeah.
Category
Jason Blitman (55:09):
like,
Mike Curato (55:10):
ikea.
Jason Blitman (55:11):
Honestly, listen,
shout out to ikea.
They should be a sponsor of thispodcast.
I am.
Their stuff has been elevated.
Mike Curato (55:20):
There are those
things where it's like.
I could tell someone this is DWRand they would believe me.
Jason Blitman (55:27):
Yes,
Mike Curato (55:27):
There, there are a
few bangers.
Jason Blitman (55:30):
our bed frame is
IKEA and I would buy it again.
Mike Curato (55:33):
okay.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (55:35):
It's beautiful.
I'm a big fan.
I know.
Shout out.
Who would've thought?
And guess what?
I built it myself.
Mike Curato (55:44):
Wow.
Jason Blitman (55:45):
So well.
It looks good and I feel goodabout myself,
Mike Curato (55:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (55:49):
right?
Mike Curato (55:50):
do have a drawer
for full of Allen wrenches from
every single
Jason Blitman (55:54):
know this is
true.
This is true.
I don't ever, you, I don't thinkI've ever needed an Allen wrench
besides putting together IKEAfurniture.
Have you?
Does that drawer come in handy?
Mike Curato (56:09):
Honestly, yes.
I ha it has come in handy.
I don't know I just.
I love an Alan,
Jason Blitman (56:14):
you love fixing
things, tightening things
piecing things together,emotionally, metaphorically,
literally.
Got it.
This explains so much about you,
Mike Curato (56:26):
yes.
I'm so put together in an IKEAassembly kind of way.
Jason Blitman (56:32):
Very right.
Practically falling apartbasically.
Mike Curato (56:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
A little bit falling apart.
Needs some tightening time totime.
Jason Blitman (56:40):
Fragile.
Mike Curato (56:41):
the press board
here and
Jason Blitman (56:43):
Okay.
We're really leaning into thismetaphor.
I'm all for it.
Mike Curato as my guest gayreader today, I have to know
what are you reading?
Mike Curato (56:52):
what am I reading?
Okay.
I have a sort of like littlelist of different genres since
I, I write for children's andadults.
I wanna plug this middle gradenovel inverse called the Poetry
of Car Mechanics by Heidi EYStempel.
Jason Blitman (57:12):
Oh my God, so
much.
Mike Curato (57:15):
I know.
I know, but honestly, like thisis about a gentle boy.
This is about a boy withfeelings who's like dealing with
all of the, like disasters inhis life through poetry and
birds.
And I don't wanna assume likepeople's identities, but
(57:36):
actually no, this is a straightboy.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (57:38):
Oh great.
Mike Curato (57:40):
at the very least,
bisexual or what?
A pansexual person.
But
Jason Blitman (57:43):
Sure.
Mike Curato (57:43):
he's in, he's into
a girl.
Jason Blitman (57:45):
Presents as
straight in the book.
Yeah.
Mike Curato (57:48):
But he loves
Jason Blitman (57:50):
all been there.
Mike Curato (57:51):
I no, but it's
really beautiful, very powerful.
Stuff that's middle grade.
Jason Blitman (57:57):
The poetry of car
mechanics.
I texted my husband yesterdaywhen I got in the car and I
said, Hey, FYI, the an alertkeeps coming on saying Check the
coolant.
I don't know.
I was like, I don't know how todo that.
You deal with that so I need mycar mechanics, right?
Yeah.
She's thirsty.
It's a warm, yeah.
Yeah.
Mike Curato (58:15):
Okay then my YA
recommendation is my government
means to kill me.
Rasheed Newson which is it'sfiction, but I kept thinking it
was autobiographical.
I'm like, wow, this guy's reallyled an interesting life.
He knows everyone in the, inlike in the
Jason Blitman (58:36):
In history,
Mike Curato (58:37):
New York City.
But I was like no.
It's fiction.
It's fiction.
But it's like
Jason Blitman (58:40):
uh.
Mike Curato (58:40):
Perspective and
like basically this guy lives
through the AIDS Crisis and RentStrikes and is friends with all
these notable names from GayHurst Street in the eighties.
I loved it.
It was a really fun read.
Jason Blitman (58:55):
It is terrific.
Mike Curato (58:56):
Yes.
And then for adult, I have twores I just finished reading the
editor by Steven Rowley, who'sbest known for the gun.
Which I also love.
and it was like a departure fromthe gunk in a lot of ways, but
like still very gay and it.
Jackie o is a supportingcharacter,
Jason Blitman (59:19):
Mm-hmm.
Mike Curato (59:20):
Oasis, as he's
corrected in the book.
It's yes.
About like his relationship.
Like the main character is anauthor who finally gets his big
break and he finds out, like theeditor who's acquiring his book
is Jacqueline Onassis and loseshis mind.
And yes, the book is a bit abouttheir relationship, but it's
more about the relationship hehas with his mother and his
(59:41):
family.
Jason Blitman (59:42):
You know that's a
memoir.
I'm kidding.
Mike Curato (59:46):
yes.
I totally knew that.
Jason Blitman (59:49):
Not a memoir.
Not a memoir.
Mike Curato (59:50):
you're playing with
me.
You know how gullible I am.
Like literally, I don't, I knowwhat my deal was with my
government means to kill me.
It's like I know the author'sname and it's not the main
character's
Jason Blitman (01:00:01):
Right.
Mike Curato (01:00:01):
What is my problem?
And I'm like.
Anyway yes, so that's one that'smy
Jason Blitman (01:00:07):
One of your adult
picks.
Mike Curato (01:00:08):
then I also read I,
I love a murder mystery.
And so I really this was likecheeky fun dial A for aunties,
Jason Blitman (01:00:17):
Oh, sure.
Mike Curato (01:00:18):
by Jesse q Santo
and it's like about this.
The twist is right, like thiswoman, she's like first
generation Indonesian and sheaccidentally murders.
A date that, like her mother sether up on like a blind date, she
accidentally murders him.
(01:00:39):
And so the book isn'tnecessarily, it's not about
finding out who the murderer is,it's about her Indonesian
aunties trying to help her coverup the
Jason Blitman (01:00:48):
Oh my God,
Mike Curato (01:00:49):
hilarity ensues.
So
Jason Blitman (01:00:51):
that's so fun.
Mike Curato (01:00:53):
a, it's, and at
first I was like.
Huh.
Okay.
I dunno.
Let's see how this goes.
And then I was like, so investedand like laughing.
I think it's very funny.
I listened to the audiobook,
Jason Blitman (01:01:02):
Oh,
Mike Curato (01:01:03):
like lots of
Jason Blitman (01:01:04):
a full
performance.
Mike Curato (01:01:05):
a full performance.
Yes.
So yeah,
Jason Blitman (01:01:09):
Love.
Mike Curato (01:01:10):
of my.
Jason Blitman (01:01:11):
What a good list.
Mike Curato (01:01:13):
that's my recent
reading journey.
Jason Blitman (01:01:15):
And.
Mike Curato (01:01:15):
I haven't read it
yet, but I have to plug a
graphic novel because duh.
Jason Blitman (01:01:19):
Please.
Mike Curato (01:01:20):
and I'm a huge
Molly Knox Oag fan.
I love Witch Boy.
And so I just
Jason Blitman (01:01:24):
Oh.
Mike Curato (01:01:25):
It's called The
Deep Dark.
It's a young adult andapparently a Prince Honor book
I'm excited to read that.
Jason Blitman (01:01:33):
Amazing.
Such a good list.
Steven Rowley's.
He knows this.
So I don't feel bad saying thispublicly, but I hate the word
gunk.
I hate, and this is pride and sothis is very homophobic of me
and I'm so sorry, but I hateGaber Hood.
We are living through homophobictime.
(01:01:53):
The name Gaber, I can't gun, Ican't, just taking a G and
adding it to the front of a worddoes not make it gay.
And that is so upsetting to me.
However.
Mike Curato (01:02:06):
it feel like g like
gag, like
Jason Blitman (01:02:08):
First of all,
it's the word gun girl has the
word gunk in it, which is gross.
Gabe Hood, I can't, I don't evenknow where to begin, but a Port
Manto that works for me, GA,Asians,
Mike Curato (01:02:22):
Okay.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Jason Blitman (01:02:26):
I'm literally
dead serious though.
Mike Curato (01:02:28):
okay.
Yeah, I, it's right there.
It's right there.
Jason Blitman (01:02:32):
Do you know why
it works?
Because both words are intact.
Mike Curato (01:02:37):
Yes.
Yes.
It's
Jason Blitman (01:02:38):
Is intact, and
Asians is intact.
It is seamless.
Mike Curato (01:02:43):
Yes.
Jason Blitman (01:02:43):
I was trying to
Mike Curato (01:02:46):
Oh, my friend came
up with Vess.
Jason Blitman (01:02:49):
The
Mike Curato (01:02:49):
we think they came
up with it, but Vess,
Jason Blitman (01:02:52):
Asians, yes, you
are so inclusive.
Mike Curato (01:02:55):
sequel.
Jason Blitman (01:02:57):
Yes.
It's so funny, I was thinkinglike this morning, I was like,
what are other examples of twowords that could fit seamlessly
together?
And literally, I could onlythink of one thing and it is the
most random, bizarre how mybrain got here.
(01:03:18):
I will never know, but I feellike I have to say it out loud.
De Exte.
Mike Curato (01:03:25):
Wow.
Wow.
You were doing a lot there.
Like you did that.
Jason Blitman (01:03:31):
I don't know what
was happening.
I'm
Mike Curato (01:03:33):
from?
Jason Blitman (01:03:34):
probably the over
caffeine, over my over
caffeinated brain
Mike Curato (01:03:38):
were you doing when
that came to you
Jason Blitman (01:03:42):
walking around my
house preparing for this.
I think maybe I was like doingthe things right, putting on
deodorant and do, I was justlike moving and I was like, what
are the,
Mike Curato (01:03:56):
with Latin and
Sanskrit and just like you
You're folding laundry.
Jason Blitman (01:04:00):
I don't know.
It is the strangest thing.
Why did I come up with Deus X,Mina Mustang?
I don't know, but I'm gonna runwith it
Mike Curato (01:04:11):
I, it sounds like a
good title.
Jason Blitman (01:04:14):
Just like this
one.
just like Ca Asians?
Mike Curato (01:04:18):
it.
You are not
Jason Blitman (01:04:18):
No.
Mike Curato (01:04:19):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (01:04:20):
For our
listeners.
Wait, warn me.
Mike Curato (01:04:25):
There is the G word
in that book.
Jason Blitman (01:04:28):
Oh, I know.
I've read it.
Mike Curato (01:04:29):
is in, not ga
obviously Ga Gaber
Jason Blitman (01:04:31):
Gaber Hood.
I know.
But the, but when I tell peoplewhat the book is called, it's
not gonna make me gag.
Mike Curato (01:04:39):
I'm glad.
Unless you're like, I'm gaggingthen
Jason Blitman (01:04:43):
No, I'm gagging.
'cause the book is so great andthe title is successful.
Mike Curato (01:04:49):
Yes.
Jason Blitman (01:04:51):
For the people,
for the listeners, for the
viewers who are looking at yourgingham or striped shit
curtains, what it tell us aboutyour book?
What's your elevator pitch?
Mike Curato (01:05:03):
Yeah.
Okay.
I.
First and foremost gay Asianrepresentation, kind of
something I need more of.
We rarely see gay Asian centeredstories, let alone like a gay
Asian full cast of kind ofmedia.
They're there, right?
And people are like, oh you'vegot Fire Island.
(01:05:24):
It's yeah, we've got that onemovie.
Thank you.
So anyway, there, there was justlike a lot of things that I've
experienced in my life that Ineeded to get out.
And this is a story about chosenfamily, really Everything down
to the bare basics.
When I was when I graduatedcollege, I moved to Seattle and
(01:05:47):
I met.
My first gay friends, and a lotof them happened to be Asian as
well, and they took me, undertheir wing and showed me the
ropes and they became my little,chosen gay family.
And I didn't realize how specialthat was until later in life,
but I did I did see right awaywas like, oh my God, i've never
(01:06:11):
been seen or understood in thiscompletely three dimensional way
before in my entire life.
I had Asian friends growing upand like I had met gay people in
college and had a handful of gayfriends, but this was a
completely new experience whereI was like, wow.
We have a sort of shorthand.
(01:06:31):
Where I don't have to explain alot to these people, they Get
it.
And yeah and along with that, wewere all like really different
people just like the charactersin my book, right?
Because there are lots ofstereotypes flying around and I
play around with some of thosestereotypes.
you know, And each character youmight think is a, on paper like
(01:06:51):
a stereotype.
And then we start to, find thelayers, slicing that layer cake,
And, leave no crumbs.
But yeah, basically one of thecharacters is a bit parallel
with my own story.
AJ moves to Seattle.
He gets taken in by this groupof friends who call themselves
the Boy Luck Club.
Huge Amy Tan fan.
And the Joy Luck Club wasdefinitely an inspiration for
(01:07:13):
getting started.
Like I really paid attention tohow she structured the Joy Luck
Club.
And I love when it's likedifferent stories woven
together, like differentpeople's stories, woven into one
tapestry.
So that was the goal with thisas well.
Jason Blitman (01:07:28):
Love it made me
very nostalgic for.
I think in college I had a veryrobust group of gay friends and
then I moved to New York and Ialso had plenty of gay friends,
but I had, but I would say mostof my close friends were
straight.
And then post Covid, I'mrefinding my queer community.
(01:07:50):
And the book was such a goodreminder of the importance of
that.
Mike Curato (01:07:55):
Yes.
I think that's what's so presentright now, Staying connected,
staying in community taking careof each other.
Jason Blitman (01:08:03):
Yeah.
Mike Curato (01:08:04):
and that's the
lesson, right?
Without giving away spoilers
Jason Blitman (01:08:08):
No, no spoilers.
Mike Curato (01:08:10):
It's like there.
A close unit and then differentcircumstances tear them apart.
The
Jason Blitman (01:08:16):
Yeah.
Mike Curato (01:08:16):
of tears them apart
and it's really on them to
rebuild and make that connectionstronger and
Jason Blitman (01:08:24):
In an
Mike Curato (01:08:24):
what I wanna see
more of in the world.
Jason Blitman (01:08:26):
amen.
And to springboard off of that,my new favorite question that
I've been asking all of my guestgay readers to an, to amplify
the people in their lives.
I have to know if you were todie tomorrow.
Who are you calling to clear thesearch history on your computer?
Mike Curato (01:08:48):
100% my sister,
Jason Blitman (01:08:51):
Yes.
Mike Curato (01:08:53):
I know that they
will have my back and they're
also very thorough and willclearly clack make sure all that
is
Jason Blitman (01:09:03):
We love a
thorough sister.
Mike Curato (01:09:05):
She knows where all
the bodies are buried.
Like literally the people wehave murdered together,
Jason Blitman (01:09:10):
This is what
makes a good sister.
What's her name?
Mike Curato (01:09:13):
her online name is
Katrina Reese.
Jason Blitman (01:09:16):
Great.
I'm only, I only wanna justshout out Katrina Reese.
Like I just want to Yes.
We love, I.
Mike Curato (01:09:23):
And the amazing
thing is we just recorded a full
cast audiobook for gays Katrinais one of the, one of the cast
members.
Jason Blitman (01:09:33):
Oh my God.
Mike Curato (01:09:33):
yeah, she does a
lot of the minor female vocal
Jason Blitman (01:09:36):
So fun.
That's so cool.
Shout out to her.
We love, we, we love those whowe could trust with the deeds
and the bodies.
Mike Curato, thank you so muchfor being here.
Mike Curato (01:09:53):
Oh, thank you.
Jason Blitman (01:09:54):
My guest, gay
reader, everyone go by GA
Asians.
It's the best Port Manto.
And the book gagged me, but thetitle did not.
And happy pride.
Mike Curato (01:10:07):
Happy pride,
everyone.
Thank you Lucas and Mike.
You can get your copies of theslip and gazen wherever you get
your books.
See you later this weekeveryone.
Bye.