S.A. Cosby (King of Ashes) feat. Richie Jackson, Guest Gay Reader

Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Gaze reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
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Say you're not gay.

(00:24):
Well that's okay there somethingeveryone.
Hello, and welcome to Gay'sReading.
I'm your host, Jason Blitman,and on today's episode, I have
SA Cosby talking to me about hisbook, king of Ashes, and my
guest, gay reader is author andtheater producer Richie Jackson.

(00:48):
Both of their bios are in theshow notes.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
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So do with that as you will.
And without further ado, pleaseenjoy my conversations with Ee
Cosby and Richie Jackson.

Jason Blitman (02:59):
you feeling good?
How you doing?

S.A. Cosby (03:01):
Yeah, I'm good.
Uh, everything's ramping up froma new book, so I'm sort of, uh,
uh, in a holding pattern, butalso sort of, uh, on the runway
lit, uh, metaphoricallyspeaking, ready to go.
So, but yeah, we're doing good.
I, you know, it's, it's a newbook.
And so, you know, of course as awriter, you're nervous.
You, you want people to like it.

(03:21):
You hope people like it.
It's, my new book is very dark.
It's extremely dark, and that'ssaying something.
'cause I, my last book was abouta, a killer.
So, but uh.
I have been, um, I have beenpleasantly surprised at some of
the early reactions.
Uh, I got my first trade review,uh, from Library Journal the

(03:42):
other day.
They liked it.
Uh, fans, the readers seem tolike it.
Um, it, it is, like I said,extremely dark, but also I think
has a lot of heart, like a lotof my books.
So, you know.

Yeah.
I feel like I was warned basedon other podcasts that you've
been on, that flipper the catmight make an appearance, so I'm
fingers crossed over here.

S.A. Cosby (04:06):
So Flipper is, is, is I have appearance

Uh,

S.A. Cosby (04:18):
Make his presence felt.
Uh, you know, he, he wants

listen, as long as you said flippers, as long as
you didn't say flippers nolonger with us.
'cause then I would've put, hadto put my foot in my mouth.

S.A. Cosby (04:28):
oh, no, no, no, no.
He's still with us.
He's, he's, uh,

Okay.

S.A. Cosby (04:32):
and he's living the life of, so he's doing fine.

when this episode comes out, the tu, this is
coming out on a Thursday, theTuesday, uh, I'm in conversation
with VI Schwab, She and I hadthis conversation, I can't
remember if it was blacktop,wasteland or something you
talked about.
When you give someone anickname, it makes them a myth
and a myth never dies.
And I'm obsessed that you go byyour initials.

(04:59):
You've essentially, given you'vecreated a myth of yourself, do
you feel that way?

S.A. Cosby (05:04):
Well, you know the funny.
I don't take myself thatseriously.
You know?
I don't, I don't, uh, the storybehind the, the initials was, so
I grew up in the south and inthe south most of the times

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (05:23):
used to buy when you could buy books.
When I had money, which I didn'toften have money as a kid, but
when you had money, we, we go,they would have a, a rural books
in the supermarket, right?
So you go into the.
The, you know, the, the localSouthern, uh, uh, supermarket
chain, and you always see books,uh, in the, uh, in the
supermarket.
And they were always behind ashelf, so you could only see the
top half of the book, right?

(05:43):
So a part of the title, but ifit was a big author, their name
was at the top of the book,right?
And so, you know, you go throughand you see Dennis Le Hane,

Mm.

S.A. Cosby (05:51):
see Walter Mo, you see, you know, all these folks.
I always.
It would be cool to have like myname at the top of a book with
my initials.
I think it would stand out more.
So when I started writing Isaid, well, I'll just write
under essay co.
You know?
And I think some people thinklike, oh you, is that a play on

(06:12):
words?
Like essay's, like an essay?
And I was like, ah, I wish I wasthat clever.
I'm.

Nope.
You just wanted your name on thetop of the book.
Right, right.
Oh, that's so, so funny.

S.A. Cosby (06:27):
Yeah, my

Right?
Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (06:35):
stories and sort of.
Create legends, you know, theycreate myths.
And

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (06:43):
I definitely believe that, I mean, I think everybody
knows somebody who had anickname that they got because
they did something crazy, youknow?
And, and those stories live on,you know, we, you know,
regardless of whether you'refrom the south, from the
northeast, from uh, the west,you know, you always have
somebody in your

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (06:59):
that you know that is.
You know, uh, you know, uh, uh,you know, remember that night,
uh, Cosmo guy Cosmopolitan, you?

Uh, if you didn't get one of those nicknames, what
would your nickname have been?

S.A. Cosby (07:19):
Well, you know, when I was a kid, my nickname was
books.

Uh.

S.A. Cosby (07:22):
books.
I used to have a backpack and I

Really.

S.A. Cosby (07:26):
Yeah.
And I was just walking aroundwith a backpack full of
paperbacks and comics and stuffI read all the time.
I, I still am a pretty voraciousreader.
I had a cousin,

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (07:36):
had a cousin whose nickname was the mall, MAUL,
because one time so hard thatthe hospital attacked with a
hammer.

Oh my God.
Uh, that's nuts.
I am also obsessed that yournickname was books.
That's so cute.
Can I call you that?
Can I call you books?
I, Sean, Sean essay, CosbyBooks.
Welcome to Gay's Reading.

(08:10):
We we're starting with a bang.
I'm obsessed.
Um, okay, so I finished King ofAshes, which I want to talk
about in a minute, but then Iwent right to Blacktop Wasteland
'cause, because King of Asheswas my first essay.
Cosby.
And I like, I needed more rightaway.
So I started Blacktop,wasteland.
I'm about halfway through.

(08:32):
What is it with you andHamburger Casserole they're in?

S.A. Cosby (08:38):
So make a.
So when I was a kid, like Isaid, we grew up really, really
poor.
And uh, my mother, uh, was, uh,was disabled so she had spinal
stenosis, so she couldn'tphysically cook,

Mm.

S.A. Cosby (08:52):
she taught us how to cook and she taught us really
simple dishes.
'cause we, you know, me and mybrother, we were kids and so we,
of my favorite

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (09:00):
was hamburger casserole.
So many variations.
'cause when you're poor, youlearn to be flexible with food
choices.
And so there's so manyvariations on hamburger
casserole and I, you know, it'ssort of a, it sort of a family
Easter egg.
So my family members read thebook, they see the hamburger
casserole and sort of a, a shoutout to my mom.

(09:21):
She's no longer with us.
So little, little, uh,

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (09:24):
there.
So, but.

I love that.
I'm sure it is.
Well, I set, I was like back toback in these books.
I was like, now I want hamburgercasserole.
Do you still make that?
Do you, how do you, what's yourgo-to, uh, ingredients?
I.

S.A. Cosby (09:39):
So I use, uh, regular, uh, ground beef
hamburger.
I use,

Uh uh.

S.A. Cosby (09:44):
give a a, I don't wanna give a a a, a company
name, but I use tomato sauce andI use a very specific tomato
sauce.
Um, I chop up,

Okay.

S.A. Cosby (09:52):
uh, onions and green peppers.
Um, and then what I do

Yes.

S.A. Cosby (09:56):
I top it.
top it with shredded cheese andthen I, I put it in a pan that's
lined with instant biscuits,right?
So you line the pan withbiscuits and what happens is as
the biscuits expand, as theycook, they sort of come over the
beef.
So you have this sort of ovenbaked casserole cheeseburger.
So, and that's delicious.

interesting.
Okay.
Have you ever done, have youever tried putting like french
fries on top?

S.A. Cosby (10:24):
I've heard of that, but I haven't done it.
But I was in, I was in Syracusea couple months ago and went out
to eat and that is like astaple.
Well, Syracuse.
Syracuse, the only place I'vebeen to where your side dish, if
you get a main dish, is beef, ismore beef.
So.

What the heart disease capital of the world.

S.A. Cosby (10:49):
Must be because if you get a cheeseburger and
Syracuse, your side dish isthese two little sausages, and
I'm like, what?
Where are the french fries?
Oh, you gotta ask for those.
So, but I saw a restaurant thathad the, the hamburger casserole
with the french fries on top asa, as a, as a entree.
So, hey, I, I, I, and I, I

That's so funny.

S.A. Cosby (11:06):
already eaten something, but I was very
curious about it.

Well, when you said you lined the casserole
dish, I thought you were gonnasay with fries, so that's why I
was like, oh, maybe if you dothe fries on top, then you get
the carbs on the top and on thebottom.
Now my mouth, now my mouth iswatering.
Um, okay.
King, king of ashes.

(11:32):
Do you have, do you have anelevator pitch for the book yet?
What's, tell tell the people.
What is the book about?

S.A. Cosby (11:38):
So King of Ashes is the story of the Caruthers
family.
Uh, older brother Roman, middlesister, Nevaeh baby brother
Dante.
Um, their family owns acrematory, but as the book
begins, Roman is living a veryfascinating hedonistic life in,
in Atlanta, Georgia as afinancial advisor gets a phone
call from his sister that theirfather Keith has been in a car
accident.
When he gets home, he finds outthat it wasn't an accident that

(11:59):
his brother Dante is in debt tovery dangerous criminals.
And so in an effort to, uh,assist his brother out of this
terrible situation, he in, heends up working for these
criminals and try to pay off thedebt that his brother owed also,
meanwhile, their sister Nevaeh,who has been holding the family
business together, trying tohold the family together, this
is the time to investigate the,uh, disappearance of their
mother.

(12:19):
Who disappeared when they wereall teenagers.
Um, and everybody in this smalllittle Virginia town thinks
their father killed her becauseshe was having an affair.
And so story of this family andhow they deal with both past and
present traumas.

Um, are you the oldest?

S.A. Cosby (12:36):
I have.

You are the baby.
Interesting.
Okay.
Because there's, there's verymuch the, I'm, I'm the oldest,
and so I felt like I, I relatedvery much to Roman.
I was like, oh, there is, thereis firstborn deeply rooted.
So you clearly wrote it as theobserver of the firstborn.

S.A. Cosby (12:56):
Well, I will say this and I, and I hope my
brother doesn't get mad.
the baby, but I.

Listen, that's hap I, I hear lots of stories
about that.

S.A. Cosby (13:11):
Yeah, I was given the, I was, I talk about King of
Ashes is about sort of thetitles or the jobs that we're
given in our family.
I was given the job of theresponsible one, even though I
was the baby.
And so I definitely identifywith

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby (13:24):
in many ways.
You know?
And I love my brother, you know,I do.

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (13:27):
know, it was definitely, I understood Roman,
I understood the weight of thatresponsibility and also sort of
that millstone that sometimesfeels like it's around your
neck.

so Roman is living in Atlanta, as you were
saying.
He goes home when he finds outhis dad was in an accident, but
it's, it's referred to later asnot home anymore, just the place
that his family lives.
When does, when do you thinkthat change happens?
When does it, when does thatplace no longer become home?

S.A. Cosby (13:54):
I think if you move away, and I've moved away and
come back a couple times from myhometown, but I think when you

Yeah, yeah.

S.A. Cosby (14:00):
find, when you finally establish like your
circle of friends and comradesand colleagues, when you find
that sort of, I don't wanna saywhen you find that sort of.
uh, uh, earth SAT's family,that's when you've created a new

mm.

S.A. Cosby (14:17):
you know, like Thomas Wolf said, you, you can't
go home again because you're notthe same person you were when
you left.
You've changed that person, the

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (14:24):
that person that people think.
doesn't exist anymore.
And so you go home, you have todeal with those sort of
expectations that aren't viable,uh, into who you are now.
You know?
And I think a lot of people

Hmm,

S.A. Cosby (14:38):
I, and even though I've moved away and I, I
currently live where I grew up,I definitely know I'm a
different person than I wasbefore I left.

interesting.
What was it like coming back?

S.A. Cosby (14:49):
It was, well, a little embarrassing because away

Oh,

S.A. Cosby (14:58):
I, uh, was, uh, I dropped outta college.
I had to help my mom with somestuff, and then once that sort
of eased up,

mm

S.A. Cosby (15:05):
leave and I went out west.
And when I came back I did feelsort of like a little bit of a
failure.
You know, I had, I had comehome, I

mm

S.A. Cosby (15:12):
unquote big city, and I felt like I, you know, it
wasn't that I couldn't cut it.
Certain things happened where Ihad to come home.
I didn't have a place to stay.

Right.

S.A. Cosby (15:20):
a couple.
And they broke up.
So, you know, she kicked all ofus

A

S.A. Cosby (15:25):
And so I, so I sort of felt a little bit like a
failure.
Um, but then, you

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby (15:31):
that, you know, it wasn't the end of the world.
And I, you know, I startedwriting more seriously when I
came back.
And it's funny, I've had the

Hmm,

S.A. Cosby (15:40):
travel literally around the world.
And so I don't feel like I'mstuck at home.
I don't feel like, oh, I had tocome back.
My tail

hmm.

S.A. Cosby (15:48):
home is just a place where I laid my head, but I've
been able to travel the world,travel the country, and so I'm
very blessed, very lucky to beable to do that.
So it, I have a different sortof perspective on it than I did
when I first came back.

Yeah, well it sounds like you were able, you,
you sort of came back one personand then transformed even more
so, and now you can appreciateit in a new way, which is super
cool.

S.A. Cosby (16:11):
Oh yeah, definitely, definitely.
It's funny though, Holman is

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (16:14):
because when I wrote, uh, when I wrote, uh,
razor Blade Tears, right?
And I wrote that for my cousin.
I have a cousin and, uh, who's,who's gay,

Mm.

S.A. Cosby (16:21):
and I wrote it.
He inspired it.
And, uh, and so I remember him,I, I sent him the early copy of
it and he's like, man, this isreally good.
What do the people back homethink?
I said, I don't give a fuck.
Right?
It's like, you know,

Wow.

S.A. Cosby (16:38):
I don't judge myself by the expectations of the
people that knew me when I was akid, because I'm not that person
anymore.

Mm-hmm.

S.A. Cosby (16:45):
my hometown, I love people here, but you know, you,
you, you cannot live as anartist in the shadow of people
that knew you win.
You know, Joe, uh, Joe Lansdalesays.
You have to write, likeeverybody who you might think
would be embarrassed by yourwork is dead.
You have to write in a way thattells the truth, you know?
And like Titus says, and all thesins bleed.

(17:06):
The truth is always in season.
So.

Yeah.
Well, interesting that yourcousin clearly was still
connected and concerned aboutwhat people back home would
think or feel, whatever backhome even meant to him.

S.A. Cosby (17:21):
You know, it's funny because he lives in Atlanta, you
know, and, and, and, uh,

Mm-hmm.

S.A. Cosby (17:26):
left, you know, early on and, and created a
wonderful life for himself downthere.
And I guess why, since Imentioned it, I'll give you the
backstory to Razor blade.
So.
and this will kind of answeryour question.
So Razor Blade was inspired bymy cousin.
He came home, we used to have abig family reunion and he was
living in Atlanta and he wouldbring his partner home with him.
And at first he would notacknowledge that that was his

(17:47):
partner.
You know, he was his roommate orwhatever.
And one, 1D day, he called me,he said, Hey, are you gonna be
at the reunion this year?
And this writer.
Who were my aunt and uncle, um,I'm gonna tell him that me and,
um, partner are together, youknow, and I, he was like, and I
really

Mm-hmm.

S.A. Cosby (18:07):
I was like, yeah, I'll be there.
Sure.
So we go to the reunion and he,he does, he introduces his
partner as his partner, as hisboyfriend.
And it, it did not go well.
And so later on, me and mybrother, uh, took him out for a
drink.
We went out to, and he said twothings with me years later when
I decided to write this book.

(18:29):
You know, man, maybe I shouldkept to myself and you could
unconditionally.
You know, and I say that as akid who was a wild kid who put
my, a lot of gray hairs in mymom's head, you know, but I
never felt like no matter whattrouble I got into that she, you

(18:50):
know, but I never felt like shedidn't love me.
You know?
I never felt that way.
And the

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (18:54):
was, you know, I hope they, you know, can come
around to understanding that I'mhappy before it's too late.
Those two things stuck in my

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby (19:06):
My brother, who is not always the most sensitive
person in the world, he turns tomy cousin and he says, so you
and, uh, you and your, you andyour guy, y'all, uh, y'all gay
together?
Y'all, y'all gay for each other?
And then he was like, yeah.
And my brother takes a sip fromhis beer.
And he says, so he makes youhappy though, right?
And my cousin like, yeah, hemakes me very happy.
My brother's like, well, youknow, fuck it, y'all be gay,

(19:27):
man.
Be happy.
Don't worry about our aunt anduncle.
You know, go back to Atlanta.
Live your life.
And I remember thinking, yeah,yeah.
Hell yeah.
And so when I went to writeRazorblade, it was a book
inspired by that idea that loveis love, you know?
And you should be happy thatsomeone loves your child or
loves your brother, or lovesyour sister, or loves this
person that

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (19:47):
as non-binary and that you should be happy that
they have someone in their life.
And so that's sort of where theidea from the book came from.
So when I, we were talking aboutit later and he said that, I
said, why are you worried aboutpeople back home?
And he says, know.
He says, one day come

Yeah.
Yeah, right.
Trauma's real.

S.A. Cosby (20:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Uh, and, and you know, among the things I wanted
to talk to you about today,because this episode and this
book coming out during Pride,you know what it means for you
to be an ally, and I think youjust really.
You just told such a beautifulstory of, of a great example of
allyship.
And I think, you know, we, weall need that cousin, that

(20:30):
friend that whoever who's gonnastand there and say, I'm, I'll
be there for you.
I got your back, and, uh, I'mgonna love you no matter what.
So, no matter, so who caresabout what, what the people
around you are gonna say.
Uh, so on on, on all of our wehaves.
Thanks.
Thanks for being a good ally.

S.A. Cosby (20:47):
Well, you know what's funny?
I, I, I try to, I try to, youknow, there are people, and I'm
sure you've experienced this,that try to take allyship as
this sort of badge of like, I'man ally, you know, and they, you
know, and it's like an ally'snot saying it, you know what I
mean?
An ally is, you

Yeah.
Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (21:06):
with a, with a friend who's, who's gay or trans
or non-binary or.
You know, black or Hispanic or,or from a marginalized group is
walking with that person lettingthem know that they're safe.
You know, letting them knowthat, Hey, I'm with you.
No matter what goes down here,we're gonna be together.
You know, it's not just, it'snot just buying, you know.

(21:27):
I mean this with all duerespect.
It's not just buying a RainbowT-shirt and wearing it.
It's knowing that when the shithits the fan, you know, we're
together with this.
You know?
And

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (21:36):
when, when Razor Blade came out and I got a lot
of notoriety for it, but youknow, I felt like I made a post
online.
I said, you know, hey, Iappreciate all the support for
Razor Blade, but here readthese, these gay authors who are
living this.
You know, like,

Mm.

S.A. Cosby (21:53):
Nava, read Greg Heron, read Margaret Dule, you
know, read these folks that arereally living this.
I'm just a straight guy tryingto talk about what it feels like
to grow up in a community thatis steeped in homophobia, but
these people are living this.
So

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (22:09):
on a pedestal.
You know, I appreciate youbuying the books, and I
appreciate you enjoying it, but.
A straight guy observing it, youknow, I think that for me that
was really important.
I did not want razor blade on meto put on any kind of pedestal
for that, you know?
And so that I think also isbeing a good ally is centering

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (22:30):
to be centered in, in my opinion.

Sean, you're so cool.
Yes.
Thank you.

S.A. Cosby (22:42):
I mean, you.

Come on books.
Come on.

S.A. Cosby (22:48):
I had a good reason I had a good mom.
You know, my mom, uh,

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (22:53):
I grew up around a lot of, a lot of readers, right?
And so my mom read everything.
She, she was not a fictionreader, but she read James
Baldwin and she read, you know,gosh, go Vidal, and she read an
an n and all these folks and

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (23:08):
mythology and stuff know.
You treat people the way youwanna be treated.
You meet people where they are,you know, and you know it
doesn't matter.
Who they love or who they careabout.
As long as they're good to you.
If somebody's good to you, you'dbe good to them.
So, you know that a lot of that

Mm-hmm.

S.A. Cosby (23:25):
my mom because I also was raised in a hyper,
hyper masculine environment.
You know, I had a lot of unclesand, you know, they were tough
guys, man.
They, they were blue collar guysthat worked.
You know, job putting asphaltdown on the roads or working at
sawmills, and there was thissort of sense of have to
maintain and protect yourmasculinity.

(23:47):
You know, somebody bumps intoyou, you gotta fight'em.

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby (23:49):
disrespect you.
You gotta fight'em.
You know, I'll tell you a funnystory, which in hindsight
probably isn't that funny, butwhen I was 12 years old.

Oh God.

S.A. Cosby (23:59):
Um, when I was 12 years old, I used to ride the
school bus and this kid wasstealing my lunch.
It was an older kid and I wouldcome home and one day.

Mm-hmm.

S.A. Cosby (24:11):
Sort.
And my uncle was like, man, whyyou always hungry when you get
off school bus?
Why you always hungry?
You so hungry?
Because I'd wolf my food up fordinner, you know?
I said, uh, well there's thiskid that steals my lunch.
And my uncle who thought he wasdoing good by me, he said, look,
you come off this school bustomorrow and that kid stole your
lunch, I'm gonna punch you inyour chest.
You gonna fight me?
And I'm like, yeah, right.
Okay, whatever.

(24:32):
Not fighting this 35 year.
School bus came down the lane.
My uncle's like, where's yourlunch?
I said, oh, that kid took it,punch me in my chest, hard
enough, stop my heart.
He said, every day you get offthe school bus that you haven't
fought this kid and protectedyour lunch, you gonna fight me.
So the next day I'm on schoolbus and the guy comes up and
he's like.
know what time it is.

(24:52):
I was like, Nope.
No, we fighting today.
fight you rather than this grownass man as paws like a bear, uh,
bear trap.
And, you know,

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (25:02):
it took me a long time to realize that that was my
uncle in the, the only way heknew how, trying to communicate
to me to stand up for my soul.
And that is

Mm.

S.A. Cosby (25:13):
toxic way of communicating it.
That is a very toxic, masculineway, but it's also tragic
because he didn't have the toolsto say it in any other way.
And so when I grew up,

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (25:25):
a lot of, I tried to do a lot of work to unlearn
that, you know, um, to unlearnthat sort of idea that.
You know, that violence is theonly way to establish your
masculinity.
You know, I, I tried, I learned,and that, you know, my
definition of masculinity is notaffected by yours or hers or his
or anyone else's.

(25:45):
And so, you know, I, Idefinitely worked through my
writing, through my creativityto understand that, you know?
Um, but I grew up like that.
You know, I grew up

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (25:54):
a bar, you know, my first bar fight when I.
But I, my knuckles, these lasttwo knuckles are flat.
guy broke a

Oh wow.

S.A. Cosby (26:06):
when I was like 18.
Um, and I don't say that tobrag.
I say that to say that that wasthe environment that I was sort
of steeped in.

Right.

S.A. Cosby (26:13):
it gave me a lot of sympathy for the men in my life
because being African Americanmen in the South where you are
constantly disrespected, whereyou are constantly, uh,
discounted, where your manhoodand masculinity and your is not
questioned, dismissed.
That sort of physical, uh,physicality in many ways, they

(26:35):
felt like that's the only way Ican establish myself.
That's the only way I can definemyself.
And so.

Yeah.
Well, and the way that you justdescribed it, you said, you
know, that behavior was almosttragic and it's so interesting
bringing it back to King ofAshes.
You know, there's a, a quoteabout, about how he think he
thought about the power oftragedies, and the book itself
is so Shakespearean.

(27:01):
What, you know, what is, what doyou think, what is the power of
tragedy to you?
What does that mean to you?

S.A. Cosby (27:08):
The power of tragedy is the idea or the concept that
pain is universal, that we allfeel pain.
Pain is the language that we allspeak,

Mm

S.A. Cosby (27:17):
Pain is the first thing you learn as a baby.
It's not love.
The first thing you remember isthe time you touch the hot stove
or the time you,

mm.

S.A. Cosby (27:25):
on a knife.
the time a dog chased you.
Pain and fear is this sort of,uh, uniformity that we all
understand.
And the beauty of

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (27:35):
the beauty of a tragedy is we learned that we
can survive it.
You know, we learned that we canmake it through,

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby (27:41):
that we can have a tragic, horrific thing happen
and still the sun is gonnaarrive, the world's gonna turn.
And I think the great.
Writers, and I'm not puttingmyself on that pedestal.
The great writers, the greatartists are able to translate
that and articulate that in away that really sits with you.
You know, you mentionedShakespeare.
I'm a huge Shakespeare nerd.

(28:02):
I've been to Shakespeare'sbirthplace.
Avon.
My favorite Shakespeare play isKing Lear.
You know?
And King Lear is a tragedy.
It's a tragedy.
Steeped in love, and what thetoxic and toxicity of love can
be and can do.
And so when I wrote it King ofAshes, I wanted to articulate
that idea that love iswonderful, but toxic love,

(28:23):
tragic love, it can destroy you.
It can break you.

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (28:28):
I wanted to show that these characters, some of
them survive and some of don't.
And I wanted to talk about that.

Yeah, it's a so a amazing and not surprising to
hear that you're such a bigShakespeare fan.
Where did that come from foryou?

S.A. Cosby (28:44):
My, uh, 10th grade English teacher, uh, assigned
us, uh, Julius Caesar, and wehad to, she had a really
interesting, uh, assignment.
She had us rewrite the endingthe way we thought it would.
And I remember it and I read theplay backwards and forwards.
I watched the, uh, Marlon Brandoproduction.

(29:05):
I just was just so taken withthe idea that, you know, this is
Elizabethan English and this is,you know, the Globe Theater.
But these are themes and ideasthat I understand that resonated
with me.
I read Romeo, Juliet, I went,you know, I, I just fell in love
with the whole Shakespeare andCannon and something that I

(29:27):
learned is that whileShakespeare is great art,
Shakespeare is also genrefiction.
Shakespeare is crime,Shakespeare is

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (29:36):
you know, he was writing for the masses.
He just happened to be a genius.
And so.
I think for me, it really spoketo me that I could write crime
fiction, I could write horrorfiction, I could write genre
fiction, but still have literaryaspirations.
And uh, I, that

Mm-hmm.

S.A. Cosby (29:52):
through in my.

Yeah, that was very, very clear.
and now I just wanna read theessay, Cosby Adaptation of
Julius Caesar that I wanna, Iwanna, I wanna, I wanna SI wanna
see that on a stage somewhere.
I wanna, I want you to play,

S.A. Cosby (30:10):
Well that was, that was,

play.
Have you ever thought aboutthat?

S.A. Cosby (30:13):
I have thought about writing a play, but I gotta warn
you, that was me in 10th grade.
So that the new ending was knifefights and baseball bats.
So.

Well, you've leveled up a little bit from
then, I'm sure.
Uh, a woman who, Roman.
Dated once said that she used tobe afraid that the universe was
evil, but came to realize thatit's indifferent, which is more
terrifying.
Do you believe that to be true?
What does that mean for you?

S.A. Cosby (30:46):
Yeah, sadly I do.
I think, know, there's this ideathat we have, that there's good
and evil and that evil will bevanquished by good.
And know, sadly, I think if youlook at our current political
climate, that's not always true.
I.
You know, and, and, and it feels

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (31:03):
is, it's scary.
You know, I, I was raised in avery religious environment and
one of the things that I used tohear a lot that, you know, hell
is not fire and brimstone hellis being outside of the, uh,
outside of the eye of God thatGod doesn't see you anymore.

Mm.

S.A. Cosby (31:22):
that to a, a humanist, uh, perspective, the
most terrifying thing is thatthe universe isn't different,
that entropy.
Is real and that being a humanbeing

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (31:33):
really fighting against that.
It's, you know, beating our,beating our, our fist against
the glass.
Trying to bring meaning to alife, to a world that maybe
doesn't inherently have meaning,you know?
But I think that's what makeshumans special.
I think that's what separates us

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (31:49):
every other living organism on earth.
It's not that we're different.
Well, like, like one of likegenetically, our closest
relatives are chimpanzees and inmany ways, humans

Mm-hmm.

S.A. Cosby (32:00):
Chimpanzees are just alike you know, and strength
rules of a chimpanzee troop.
Violence and strength rules,nations.
But what separates us from theanimals is the idea that search
for beauty and meaning is worthit.
means something to see a flowerand talk about it, to paint it,
to write a song about it, toshow it to someone.

(32:21):
It means something to write alove poem for someone, it means
something to write a book.
One of my favorite writers is,uh, the comic book writer Alan
Moore, and he did a, he had aninterview one time where
somebody asked him like, whatwould you say to young writers?
And he said, I'm paraphrasing.
He said, I want young writers toknow that they're not just
entertainers, that everybody youknow,

Mm.

S.A. Cosby (32:42):
somebody who read a book that changed their life.
That we're myth makers and thatmeans something.
What we do is important, youknow?
Um, I, um, I used to be veryself-deprecating in interviews.
I used to be very, you know, oh,I'm not special.
What I do isn't a big deal.
I can do it.
Anybody can do it.
I have a very good friend namedJordan Harper, who called me one
day after listening to aninterview, he said, Hey, man,

(33:04):
stop saying that what we do isimportant, and if everybody
could do it, everybody would doit.
You know, we're doing somethingthat means something.
Writing means something, artmeans something.
And so for me, that's the waythat we fight against Mor moral
mortality and morality, and theidea

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (33:23):
arbitrate decision of who's good and who's evil.
You know, just because you.
Love someone that somebody elsedoesn't approve of, doesn't make
you evil.
Just because you write a storythat is dark doesn't mean that
you're evil.
You know that the idea

Mm.

S.A. Cosby (33:38):
that is something that is one definitive
definition is ridiculous, and Ithink art is the sort of boar
against that

Yeah.
What was the book that changedyour life?

S.A. Cosby (33:51):
I.
Is one's kind silly.

No, none of it's not silly, nothing silly.
You're stop.
Don't, don't say that.

S.A. Cosby (34:05):
So I read a crime novel written many, many years
ago that very few people knowabout by a man named Elliot
Chase called Black Wings, has myangel, it's a very dark noir
novel.
I read it when was like 15 and Iwas like, wow, this is so dark,
but also so beautiful that youknow, this is, you know, it was
advertised as Pulp Fiction, theold novel written in like the

(34:27):
fifties, but it.
Even though the characters weretough and hard bitten, such a
beauty in it.
And, and the other one, the bookthat really made me realize the
power of a writer was, uh,Salem's Lot by Stephen King.
it's, you know, it's in additionto being one of the most
terrifying books I've everwritten.
I remember reading that book andunderstanding the way I feel

(34:49):
when I read this book the way Iwant other people to feel when
they read something.
I wrote, you know, Stephen Kinghas

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby (34:55):
is telepathy.
We're talking mind to mind whenyou read a book, you're reading
my thoughts, but more so for mewas it showed the power of what
a writer does.
You know, a writer basicallygrabs you by the hand and says,
come and see.
I'm gonna show you something.
I'm gonna show you the worstthing you could imagine.
But I'm also gonna show you thebeauty

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby (35:17):
around it.
I'm gonna show you people beingthe worst version of themselves,
but I'm also show people beinghonorable and people you.
When I finished that book, Iremember thinking, if I ever
write a book, I want people tofeel like that.
I want to grab you by the throatand say, look at this.
I'm gonna tell you a story, andthis is gonna be a story like

(35:38):
you've never

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby (35:39):
You're gonna have feelings like you've never felt
before, and when this book isover, you're not gonna be able
to forget it.
I don't know if I always achievethat

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (35:46):
but that's the high bar I'm trying to reach.
And Salem's lot taught me that.

Wow, that's so cool.
I, uh, I will say there arethings in king of Ashes that I
will never forget.
Uh, I was at a, at a, a bagelplace the other day and I, this
is not giving anything away, butI will just say that I happened
to notice a guy who works at thebagel place that he, he didn't
have a, a pinky, and that wastriggering to me.

(36:18):
Um,

S.A. Cosby (36:18):
I know this, I know this scene you're referencing,
more people talk about that thanthey do.
Um, and you'll know what I'mtalking about.
More people talk about that thanthey talk about the kennel, and
I thought the kennel was gonnabe the scene that really people
apart.
No, it's the, it's the pinkyscene.

yeah.
The pinky scene.
No, the kennel.
Yeah.
No, I get that.
But um.
But also, I will say it had measking a lot, what does it mean
to be a good person?
And what, what do you think?
What is, does that even, isthere an answer?

(36:58):
You know?
And then of course the questionis, does it make you a bad
person?
If you do bad things for a goodreason, you know?

S.A. Cosby (37:06):
I think if you get to point where constantly
reminding yourself that the endjustify the means, then you've
crossed.
Right.
There's a

Mm-hmm.

S.A. Cosby (37:17):
where if you have to constantly tell yourself this,
okay, I'm doing this for rightreasons.
If you have to constantly remindyourself that you've already
lost the plot, you've alreadycaught, you've already gone
beyond the point of no return.
I think, you know, there's ascene it where there's a scene
in King of Ashes where Dantetells you, and it's not giving
anything away.
Dante tells Roman, you keepsaying you're doing this for us,

(37:38):
but you like it and you're goodat it.
And that's the moment for mewhere I kind of thought is he,
is he right?
Because he's right then not goodperson, you know?

Interesting.
Right?
So if you're doing, if you'redoing a bad thing, but for a
good reason, but you also happento like doing that thing.

S.A. Cosby (37:58):
Mm-hmm.

Oh, you've, you've crossed the line.
Yeah.
Woof.

S.A. Cosby (38:04):
There's a story, and I don't know the the author, but
I read it in a, it was a shortstory in a horror anthology, and
God, I think it's called, theQuestion is the name of the,
the, the story, and I don't

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby (38:14):
author, so forgive me, but it's basically a story
about a man who is, uh, he worksfor the state as an executioner.
He, he's the guy who flips theswitch on a, um, on a, on a, on
the electric hair.
And he's talking about his sonasked him a question and now
they don't talk anymore.
Was the son asked him like.

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby (38:37):
Well, yeah, of course I do.
It's my job.
And he said his son told him hedidn't wanna talk to me

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby (38:42):
And I think that was something in the back of my mind
when I was thinking about Roman.
know, if you say, no, I don'tlike it, it's, it's a necessary
thing.
It has to be done.
I think that says a lot aboutyou as a person, but if you're
just like, yeah, I mean, ofcourse I enjoy it sometimes.
Sometimes people deserve it,blah, blah, blah, blah.
I think that's another questionyou have to ask yourself.
And so what does it mean to be agood person?
I guess it depends on how muchyou take pleasure in doing bad

(39:03):
things.

Yeah, we sit with that for a minute.
Yeah.
Uh, well, you know, and, andsimilarly, uh, a quote that
comes up later is that nothingis impossible.
It just depends on how bad youwant it.
And that can also, you sort offind the balance between,
between a good person, the badperson, right and wrong, good

(39:28):
and evil.
You know, maybe it's as simpleas becoming an a published
author, but, but is it also, youknow.
Nothing's impossible as ingetting rid of that person that
you don't like, you know, Ithink it could be all sorts of
things.
Uh, is that true for you?
Have you been able to, uh,accomplish the things that you,
that you want?

S.A. Cosby (39:49):
I think, you know what's funny, people always ask
me like, how do I do it?
How do I become a publishedauthor?
And, you know, there's a,there's a, there's a nice answer
where it was like, you know, soI've always wanted to do this.
I've always wanted to be awriter.
I wrote my first original storywhen I was seven years old
because my mom got

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (40:04):
with me picking out the pot potholes in, uh,
fairytales.
So she challenged me to write myown story because I, to be like
you.
Why do three little pigs, whydidn't they build all their
houses out of bricks in thefirst place?
Why are we even messing aroundwith straw?
Um, but um, so that's the,that's the good answer.
You know, that's the niceanswer.
But the, I guess the nothing isan impossible answer is spite.

(40:28):
I got rejected.
My first book got rejected over60 times, right.
And I was told by editors thatnobody wanted to read Southern
Rural Noir with black leads.
That it doesn't sell, there's nomarket, it's.
I'm gonna show you.
You know, I, I could do allthings

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (40:45):
that strengthened me, you know, and, and it was,
it had a chip on my shoulder.
I wrote, I wrote BlacktopWasteland with a chip.
I was very angry.
You can read that book.
It's an angry book.
I was real angry.
I had gotten dropped by anagent.
I had

Mm-hmm.

S.A. Cosby (40:58):
wanted to read my book.
And so I was like, you knowwhat?
gonna write the books I wannawrite and I'm gonna write it the
way I wanna write it.
And you know, damn thetorpedoes, so to speak.
And I think there is a darkness

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (41:09):
a anger, there's a rage, there's a, I'm gonna show
you sort of that comes through.
But I think you gotta have bothof them.
You gotta want to do it.
always felt like being a writeris not a thing that I do.
It's a thing I am.
But also there was a, yeah, I'm

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby (41:24):
You're gonna, you know, you're gonna regret not
publishing this book.
I think you gotta have both.
I

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby (41:29):
the yang that exists within us, you know?
it's funny, there's a movie,called, uh, um, uh, uh, uh, the
Usual Suspects, right?
And there's a scene where a

Uh.

S.A. Cosby (41:37):
a story about Kyle De So, and he says that, you
know, you don't have to, to bea, to be a boss, basically.
You don't have to have more gunsor more guys than the other
people you're up against.
To do things.
The other person isn't.
I

Mm.

S.A. Cosby (41:54):
but I say sadly because you know, once you go
down that road, there's nocoming back.

Well, I mean another way to maybe look at it
is that that other person mightnot have been willing to go to
agent or to, to publisher, uh,61.
Right.

S.A. Cosby (42:10):
Yeah.

And if you're willing to go.
for the sake of, of justifyingthat poor first pig, maybe
that's all he could afford.
He could only afford the straw.

S.A. Cosby (42:26):
That's a good point.
I hadn't thought of that.
You know,

Bricks are expensive.

S.A. Cosby (42:33):
at seven was like, man, just build a house.
Why.

Now I wanna know what other potholes you found
that's so funny.

S.A. Cosby (42:48):
man, you was, it was like, uh, I remember her, she
would read me, uh uh, red RotHood and I'm like, you know, her
grandmother could not exist.
She couldn't survive in the wolfstomach.
There's no air in there.
And so, you know, my mom, know,it.
Write your own damn stories.
How about that?
But you know what's funny?
I wrote a story, uh, I wrote astory about these, uh, these

(43:10):
space fairing gnomes that crashland in our backyard when I was
seven years old, I gave it to mymom.
And I

Mm-hmm.

S.A. Cosby (43:16):
me, she kept asking me, did you write this all by
yourself?
Did you do this by yourself?
And I'm like, yes, ma'am, I did.
And I will say this, the look onher face, when she realized I
had done it all by myself.
I look, I see that look inreader's faces today and, and
it, you know, it's such anincredible feeling when somebody
realizes you created this outtayour own mind.

(43:38):
And it's, that's the, that'sthe, that's the

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby (43:41):
that I get when I write.
That's the, that's as, uh, asthe kids say, that's the juice,
that's the feeling of, you know,I've connected with you.
You connected with me and youknow that I, I made this up, you
know, and I just, I love that.
I love seeing that on reader'sfaces.
You know, I love when I signbooks and, and people say that
to how such a.

Yeah.
Oh, I love that.
Did anything is, does that storystill exist anywhere?
Do you have it somewhere?
The space gnomes.

S.A. Cosby (44:10):
You know what?
You know, you know what's funny?
When my mom passed away, weclean the house up.
I found it.
She had it folded up in herBible.
So I have it, it's at my house.
Yeah.
It's all,

Come on.
You gotta put it out onto theinternet or something.
Come on the.

S.A. Cosby (44:28):
I keep it, it's a personal memory.
'cause I, I, I like that I wroteit, but I also like that she was
my first reader.
So,

Yeah.
Yeah, that's special.
And now you can't put it out'cause not enough people die in
that story.
So no one would believe it wasyou.

S.A. Cosby (44:44):
Nobody dies and the, the knowns get back to their
planet.
It's a happy ending.
So's gonna read it.
This is the essay.

No.
You asked this question in thebook, and so I have to, I'm
turning it back to you.
This is gay's reading.
You're, no, no one else is gonnaask you this question.
Have you ever been to a furryparty?

S.A. Cosby (45:12):
So.
Inadvertently when I was in, uh,I was in, I gotta, I gotta say
this carefully because thepeople, who were there may be
listening.
I was visiting Europe.
I'll just say that.
I won't say where I was

Uh, uh.

S.A. Cosby (45:30):
and at end of my trip.
Some people that were hosting mewas like, Hey, we're gonna go to
this after hours club.
Would you like to join us?
And I'm like, yeah, of course.
So we go to the after hoursclub, which was in a converted
cathedral.
You walk in and there were, uh.
People there that you veryquickly understood that this

(45:52):
place was a very open place, ifyou get my drift.
And one of the event there was aparty where people were
identifying as furries.
And uh, my host, my host werelike, do you want to go there?
Do you wanna get, go to the.
There were multiple things thatyou could do in this, in this
building, and I was like, Iwould just like to have a drink

(46:14):
of whiskey that I will sit down.
I, I, I, I mean, no, I don'tyuck anybody's young, but I, I
didn't, I didn't bring, youknow, my Wally Coyote outfits,
so I'm not gonna be able toattend the.

Next time.
Next time.
Next time.

S.A. Cosby (46:32):
time guys, when I'm back, when I come back and they
were like, are you sure?
I'm like, yeah, I'm sure I'lljust, I'll just sit over here at
the bar and have some whiskey.
Now I'm gonna tell you the endof that story.
It's so funny.
After the party, party was over,everybody came out in regular
clothes, came over to the barside, and then they all danced
to a uptown funk by Bruno.

That is so funny.
You know, I have to say, I, Idon't know what I was expecting
when I wrote that question down,but I was like, this is just,
has to be something that likesomeone told him once, or I
don't know, but this was, thiswas primo.
This was perfect.

S.A. Cosby (47:16):
It was a very interesting end to a wonderful
week in Europe.

That is so funny.
Oh my God.
Uh.
You're always wearing hats inall your pictures, so I didn't
know what you looked like underyour hat.
And there's something thathappens at the beginning of
blacktop Wasteland where, well,yes, I, I know I've seen a photo
since then, but, but, uh,there's a character who talks

(47:43):
about how he's worried aboutcutting off his braids because
he is worried about the shape ofhis head, and my hair has been
thinning and I'm like, my head,my head is not equipped for not
being covered.
And it started stressing me out.

S.A. Cosby (47:59):
Well, you know,

I was like,

S.A. Cosby (48:00):
wear the hats because I like hats.
But I'm lucky.
I think I have a, I have a goodshape for the bald head, you
know, and, you know, I got the,uh, the hawk, uh, Avery Brooks

I'm so jealous.

S.A. Cosby (48:09):
Spencer.
you know, but I just like hats.
I've always liked hats.
My dad like hats and I took itfrom him.
So.

Yeah.
I, they don't fit my head well.
My head is too big.
It is a problem.

S.A. Cosby (48:25):
You just, you know what you gotta do.
You don't have to worry aboutit.
You just start cutting it close,getting a nice little crew, uh,
cut going on.
You, you get people used to it,and then one day you just shave
it and then nobody will noticeit.
Like, oh, he's just shaved hishead.
Okay.

In.
Interesting.
Hmm.
It's like literally death by athousand cuts.

S.A. Cosby (48:47):
Yeah.

Oh my God.
So funny.
I, this book is so great.
I was in it from the verybeginning.
I couldn't put it down.
As I said, made me want toimmediately pick up blacktop
Wasteland, which of course Idid.
Um, and I'm so excited foreveryone to read it.

S.A. Cosby (49:14):
It's one of those books where I finished it

I.

S.A. Cosby (49:16):
I knew how dark it was.
I knew how emotional it was, andI, you know, you don't know, you
don't know what people aregonna, how they're gonna feel,
you know?
But I've been pleasantlysurprised.
I've gotten early reviews.
People seem to dig it.
They like it.
I think the thing is, a writer,you want people to get what
you're trying to say.
And then what I'm trying to sayin that book is, you know, like
I said, open your heart topeople that you love.

(49:37):
You know, don't, don't If peopleactually talk to each other in
King of Ashes, that book wouldonly be three chapters, you
know?
And so it's the idea thatcommunicate with people,
communicate with the people youlove, you know, and I'm so glad
that people get it and they'reconnecting with it.
They understand, you know, it's,you know, come for the, uh, come
for the pinky shearing and the,uh, the, the, the kennel, uh,

(49:59):
scene, but stay for, and.

Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I have two youngersisters and it just had me
thinking a lot about our dynamicand what we do and don't share
and, uh, the, the trauma that wehave experienced together and
separately and what that meansand how it connects us.
And, uh, yeah, it's all, allvery interesting and thoughtful.

(50:26):
Um.
Well essay Cosby Sean books,I'm, it's such a joy to have you
on gay's reading.

S.A. Cosby (50:35):
Oh man.
Thank you for having me.
This was so much fun.
Thank you guys for, uh, havingme on, and I really enjoyed
myself.
Thank you again so much.

Harper! (50:42):
Guest Gay Reader time!

look at your bookshelves behind you.

Richie Jackson (50:47):
We live in a very old house and these are
original and

fluorescent lights are original.

so I don't know about that.
They do, and I have no idea howthat got added, but my very
sweet husband moved them to mystudy so I could have them.

Oh my God.
I recognize, I think one.

I'm sure you recognize Oh, yes.
So I they're not in particularorder yet, there's all my books
from the eighties, all myfavorite eighties gay writers,
and then there's the top shelffor all gay history and AIDS
history and stuff.

oh my God.

I leave all the heterosexual books out down.

They don't get the special treatment.
Oh, that's so funny.
Richie Jackson.
Welcome to Gay's Reading.

Thank you for having me.
Happy to be here.

thank you for being my guest gay reader today.
It's it's always been really funtalking to folks about what
books bring them joy, especiallypeople who aren't necessarily
thought of as a part of the bookworld.
Though you have written a book,even people who have written a
book are not always.
Quote unquote in the book world.
So

I, you and I both used to be in the theater
world.
Now we're in the book world,which is much nicer.

I know we're expats for

I'm so proud of you.

Thank you.
I feel seen someone I went tocollege with, to theater school
with she also is now an authorand there was someone else.
It's a a good community of

There should be a program for us to go to and
share.

C-H-E-R-S-H-A-R-E Richie Jackson, what are you
reading?
What's on your list?

So I'm reading I'm reading two books that I've
chosen for myself and a thirdbook that are 8-year-old son has
assigned to my husband and I.

Tell me more.

The books that I am reading simultaneously are
separate rooms by PierreVitelli, which is a book from
the late eighties and abeautiful, beautifully written
book about gay men and a newbook called, it's Not The End of
the World by Jonathan ParksRamage, which just came out, and

(52:57):
he is so brilliant and so funnyand absolutely twisted.
And I lo there it is.
I just, he sees the same thingsI see.

Oh yeah.

Then how he, how he makes sense of it, interprets
it and articulates it, is likeanother stratosphere of a mind
that I just marvel at him,

When you say seize the same things, what

See world falling apart.

Oh, sure.

See.

Yeah.

How he extrapolates from that I think
is extremely creative and reallythrilling to watch,

That's really cool.
I feel, especially right now tohave people who can creatively
interpret the, for, I think thetechnical term is dumpster fire
that we're currently a part of.
I,

his book meets the moment.

yeah.

Yeah.
The other book I just finishedwas a book.
I know you spoke to the authoraudition, Katie Kitura.
I thought that book wasstunning.

It's so funny, and I didn't say this to her,
but I think I would say this toher.
It's gonna be one of my favoritebooks of the year and a book
that I hated simultaneously.
I loved it so much, but I alsocan't recommend it to everybody.

I, I, it also, it stays with you in really
disturbing ways.
You know, Every time I see myhusband blink, I'm like, wait,
what does that mean?
Katie said that every shenoticed every little thing her
husband did, and I'm like, oh, Ishould be more attentive.

Yes, I the book has just, it's, it has stuck
with me in terms of even wakingup in the morning and how I'm
presenting myself throughout theday.
What is this book that your son

my 8-year-old son is in a book group that two
of his friends and he havestarted and they started with
Hunger Games.
It is the most inappropriatebook for an eight year.

Is it, I honestly, I've seen, I saw the
first movie and I have no, otherthan the people dying and
things, I don't really know whatan 8-year-old is.

Children that my child is reading about, and he
said to my husband and I wantyou to read it too.
And so now.
We're reading this book andthink, God, we're bad parents.
How could we be?
But it's gotten him to read andhis friends and he are so
competitive.
They're now competitivelyreading.

(55:32):
So my son is I have to read ahundred pages today.
I was like, okay, have at it.
But

That's

I'm a little worried because he wants to
watch the movie now.

I feel like I was reading Lord of the Flies in
school when I was not eight, butI was young.
I feel sixth or seventh grade.

I don't really, he has a very clear, like he
knows what's real and what's notreal and it's not scaring him
'cause he knows it's not real.
But I do think, like I.
I'm not I'm, I, if he's notplaying a video game, then I'm,
because he is not allowed, wedon't allow him to watch TV or
play video games.
So I can't really startrestricting what he Then we're

(56:13):
those gay parents and we bethose gay

Oh my God.
Was, is this a new thing forhim?
Reading?

So reading, he's has to read for school, he has
homework to read, but he'salways, unless he loves the
book, it's always a bit of achore for him to read.
And

But that's true for everyone.
I totally relate to that sodeeply and I

no, you weren't a reader.
And So you decided to start apodcast about reading, talk
about backing.
Backing into it.

to be fair, the reading came first and then the
podcast came.
I would be a little crazy.

I wanna see proof of that.
Imagine if you thought to have acooking podcast.

it's funny that you say that because I have, I
have a knack for taking likeleftovers and turning them into
something else.

Oh my God, that's a cookbook.

I know.
And I was like, this could be areally fun.

you could do a whole

I know I don't have the patience for that.
You have to take nice picturesand the reality is the leftovers
are gonna be different everytime.

Also I don't think you have to take nice
pictures'cause leftovers willnever look good.

No, those will n no.
Sure, sure.
But the ingredients are neverthe same.
So like I can't recreate thesame thing again.
I can't make a recipe.
That's where, thank you.
But no, I once, I was like,wait, the whole point is that
you don't have a recipe.
So that sort of put the kiboshon that idea that I had

So then you turn to a book.

Exactly.
What's the next best thing?

It's interesting to me that you chose the word
gay given your age and the time,because I would choose that
word, but it's not queer as areading.

It's funny that you say that because I have
thought about adding an asteriskto the artwork and to some of
the way I'm talking about it.
But I grew up at a time wheregay was the general term.

How old are you?
Can I

I'm 37.

Oh, yeah.
I'm gonna be 16.

Oh, you look great.

I assume you have a filter or something, this
is gonna make better, right?

You have good lighting it's okay.
And so yeah, gay was the generalterm for me.
And at the time it was the thingthat makes sense.
But now of course that I'm doingthis guest gay reader series and
I talk to all sorts of peoplewho identify in all sorts of
ways.
That's where I'm like, okay,maybe I need to.
Amend so that I don't offend.

(58:40):
Yeah it's, it can be tricky,right?
The world that we're in.

It is tricky world.
It is not unlike working in thetheater where you do want to
preserve something you love,even when it becomes your work.
'cause sometimes that's achallenge, right?

absolutely.
And yet I obviously have acompulsion to find something
that I love and it can't just bea hobby.
I need to like,

You need to monetize.

Monetize is something we're still working
on.
But yeah.
Create something beyond a casualhobby.
Like even in, even working intheater when I was a kid, I
loved putting on plays and Icouldn't just leave it at that.
I couldn't then go be ascientist.
That just wasn't how I worked.

if you think about what you're doing,
creating community, which isexactly what the world needs
right now, and books createempathy, which is exactly what
the world needs right now.
So I think you're providing areally important service to
people.

thank you.
I appreciate that.
And I have to say, when I washaving my existential crisis
when theater was being less kindI really stripped away what it
was about it that brings me joy.
And I think storytelling andempathy building and community
building, those are really thetent poles for

Richie Jackson (01:00:01):
that's that's everything

Jason Blitman (01:00:02):
sure.
For the things that you'repassionate about.
I'm sure that's true for theguys who work at the
construction site too, butthat's not for me.
Um,

Days at the construction site.

Listen, I have a brand here.
It could be gay cooking, gayconstructing games.

Days constructing construction site.
Might wanna be your porn

Yes.
My OnlyFans.

Yes.

Short shorts and, orange vests.

See it.

have you always been a reader?

Yes.
Except when I had to read, whenI was in grade school, I
couldn't read.
I had really struggled withreading when I was in the third
grade to the point where I wastaken out of my class for
special help.
And I had to I never readwithout a ruler'cause I had to
put something under every line.
For fear that the words.

(01:00:53):
Coming at me were justdistracting me.
But then I started to just readand.
Really, basically, I think haveeducated myself from books and
certainly educated myself how tobe gay and how to live a gay
life from reading AndrewHollerin and Edmund White, and
Felice Ano and Christopher Bram,all these people.

(01:01:14):
When I moved to New York in1983, I immersed myself in gay
male writers to try to,'causenobody teaches you how to be
gay.
Nobody raises you.
Which is why I wrote my book gaylike me to provide some
blueprint, but these incrediblewriters helped me understand the

(01:01:34):
world I joined.

Yeah.
Are there some, I don't know,maybe initial memories that you
have that were imprinted on youfrom reading some of those early
on?

Certainly best little boy in the world, which
is this book about how gay mentend, tend to be always wanting
to be perfect and always havingto.
Get everything right so as notto be found out.
Like it was basically I wasn'tthat closeted person, but there
was this notion that if you justare the A type, a personality,

(01:02:07):
people won't realize what you'rehiding.
And I remember things like, Ihad never been to a gay bar, but
he the character in the booktook off their glasses before
they went to a gay bar.
'cause glasses weren'tattractive.
He couldn't see any guy anymore,but at least he looked more
attractive.
Andrew Hollerin wrote the bestgay novel in my opinion, dancer

(01:02:30):
from the Dance.
And

up a few times.
I've not read it yet, but lotsof people have told me I need
to.

is the most beautiful book and Larry Kramer
called Andrew Hollerin.
Our Hemingway, meaning that theprose was so beautiful and what
that did.
To me, for me was it elevated myidea of what it was to be gay.
Even in the stories of going toFire Island and having lots of

(01:02:58):
sex or staying out all night atclubs all of the culture of the
gay community.
He wrote about in such beautifulwords that it gave me respect
for our community.
And to this day, I can recitepassages from it.
And it's one of the things hewrote that I sent to my husband

(01:03:21):
when we were recording was abouthow the person you fall in love
with is the magic bearer, themagician, the one who brings all
this to us and it's the mostbeautiful.
Image of what the person youfall in love with is.
And that stuck with me.

That's really beautiful and I, it's
interesting, I think just theneed for gay queer lgbtq plus
people to see that.
Example of what did you say?
Elevated what it means to begay.
And I think, when you do asimple Google search of queer

(01:04:04):
people in history to really seethe gay people that I've had
impact on the world, right?
Not even just a small community,but on the world is I think,
empowering and important andsomething that I don't think we
really think about

I think it's apt.
This is why I think it's crucialthat gay people read gay books
um, because otherwise you aretrying to fit yourself into a
world that you do not.
Belonging and I am alwaysreading a gay book or an
L-G-B-T-Q book.
Even when I read if I go intothe other world and read

Audition.

those crazy heterosexual heterosexuals
confound me.
Let me just say.
When I read them, I can't makesense of them, but I'm always
reading A-L-G-B-T-Q booksimultaneously.
'cause I'm not gonna spend mylife fitting myself into someone
else's story and trying to blurmy eyes to like maybe I can see

(01:05:04):
myself there.
It's just that is not good foryour gay self-esteem.

Yeah, no, that's a really interesting point.
And I think it's funny, peoplewill ask me a lot, how come I
don't only talk to gay authors?
And I think part of it is theflip side of gay people should
be and need to be reading gaybooks, but gay people don't only
read gay books.
and in addition, I with, becauseof who I am, bring a different

(01:05:28):
perspective to.
A, a quote unquote straightbook.
An interesting example is Iinterviewed Nathan Hill for his
book wellness, which I loved,but it is about a 30 year
heterosexual relationship.
But I was looking at it througha gay lens, and in fact, I had a

(01:05:49):
handful of queer people reachout to me and say, I loved the
book when I read it.
And after listening to theconversation with Nathan from
your perspective, it justelevated it to a way that I
didn't even imagine.
And so that was important to meas well, because again we don't
just read gay books, what I alsofound very interesting about
what you said.

(01:06:10):
Brings me to why I don't onlyask my guest gay readers to tell
me about books that they'rereading.
Whenever I tell someone to prepfor this conversation, I say it
could be IKEA instructions, itcould be the back of a cereal
box.
It

I've never, I can't make sense.
I can make sense of audition.
I can't make sense of Ikeainstructions.

Of course the joke about that is that it's
only pictures, but Right.
No, of course.
But my point is it when I,because we're always reading
something right?
And we're always receiving thatinformation in whatever that
means to us.
And I remember being a young gayperson coming up at a time where
I had the internet.

(01:06:53):
Doing my Googling, which was mydue diligence as to your
reading, Andrew Hollerin.
And I remember some searchtalking about what gay sex can
be, and in addition to thethings that I think people think
of when they think of sex, italso just talked about intimacy
and that as.
That, massages and kissing andwhat we now know as fraud edge,

(01:07:17):
all sorts of things can be sexbeyond intercourse.
And I think it, for me, as ayoung person, reading that was
an unlock saying, oh, I could,there could be a lot of things
and it means so much.

My book I is entirely a letter to my gay son,
and one of the things I said is,I want you to have as much sex
as you can uh, when you'reyoung.
But I.
You won't know where in thejourney the person you're having
sex with is.
And sex is a tightrope.
So you have to protect yourheart while also trying to be as

(01:07:55):
vulnerable as possible.
And I also said in the book, andI say to my son, you have to
protect the heart of the otherperson because they might have
been, they might be closeted,they might have been abused,
they might have been bullied.
You don't know.
So take care with the peoplethat you have sex with.

Yeah.
How did Gay like me come to be?
Was that sort of the impetus?

The impetus was he, our older son was 14 when he
told my husband and I, he wasgay and I was elated.
I was hoping I was like, mygreatest wish was for him to be
gay.
And then he said, daddy beinggay is not a big deal.
My generation doesn't think it'sa big deal.
And I thought.

(01:08:39):
Oh, no, being gay is a reallybig deal and I wanted to think
about all the things I needed toshare with him about what it
means to be a gay man.
And as I was writing that DonaldTrump was elected and I had to
warn him about how to stay safe.
As an L-G-B-T-Q person inAmerica.

(01:09:00):
He was about to go to college.
He was ready for college.
He was not ready to be a gay manin America.
And I moved to New York City in1983, right at the beginning of
the AIDS epidemic.
So I've seen 50 years of ourhistory.
And'cause I'm gonna be 60, so Icame here in 83 and when I was.

(01:09:21):
17.
So I've lived through a lot ofwhat we've been through.
And I have, I left the AIDS warhaving a devotion and love for
our community, a distrust forour government and weariness for
straight people.
And I, I wanted to imparteverything.
Being gay is a gift.
It is an absolute gift as longas you take advantage of the

(01:09:43):
gift.
And that's what my message tohim in the book was.

Interesting.
I know I wanna say, and what,tell me more about that.
But that's what the book is for.
We'll read it.
Do we know anything about yournext book?
You're working on it.

I am working on it.
I'm not ready to say what it is,but

okay.

Three quarters through and I'm excited to share
it

You'll be back to talk about that book.
I

and I'll see you in Palm Springs.

you in Palm Springs.
Richie Jackson.

I really enjoyed

Everyone, check out gay like me.
just came out a few years ago.

Yes.
And yeah it is available.

Right.
It's everywhere.
Where have you got your books?

I'm very proud to have I'm very honored to have
been able to tell the story.

love that.
Sean Books.
Richie, thank you so much forbeing here.
Everyone.
Thank you.
Have a wonderful rest of yourday, and I will see you next
week.
Bye.

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