Seán Hewitt (Open, Heaven) feat. Jeffery Self, Guest Gay Reader

Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Gays reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what andwhy.
Anyone can listen Comes we arespoiler free.
Reading from stars to book clubpicks we're the curious minds
can get their picks.
Say you're not gay.

(00:24):
Well that's okay there somethingeveryone.
Hello and welcome to Gaysreading.
I'm your host, Jason Blitman.
And on today's episode I haveSean Hewitt who wrote the book
Open Heaven, which is out today,and my guest, gay reader is

(00:45):
Jeffrey Self.
His book Self-Sabotage is also,I.
Out as well.
Both of their bios are in theshow notes.
If you are in the LA area thisFriday I'm going to be in person
with Sean talking about openheaven at Book soup, and then
next week I'm at the LA TimesFestival of Books moderating a

(01:06):
panel.
So if you happen to be around,please say hello, uh, or there
are certainly other places youcould check out some of that
content as well.
Speaking of additional content,I just started a gaze reading
Substack with author q and Asand live recordings of
conversations and some otherexciting stuff.
You could check that out.
The link is in the show notesand also on the Instagram link

(01:27):
tree.
On Instagram.
We are Gaze Reading or also onBlue Sky.
And if you like what you'rehearing, please share us with
your friends.
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Like, and follow and subscribewherever you get your podcast.
And if you are so inclined toleave a five star review, that

(01:48):
certainly means a lot.
And there's so much stuff comingup that I recommend you
subscribe so that, uh, you'll bethe first to know when a new
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New members in the United Statescan join today and enter the

(02:09):
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Use the code Gaze Reading andyou get a book for$4.
It is like truly the best deal.
So make sure to check that outas well.
Please enjoy my conversationswith Sean Hewitt and Jeffrey

(02:30):
Self.

Jason Blitman (02:31):
I love your office or what, whatever room
you're in.

Seán Hewitt (02:33):
thank you.
Yeah, I'm in, So I teach atTrinity College in Dublin, and
this is Oscar Wilde's house.
So,

Up.

yeah, so I'm in the attic.
So this is, it doesn't look likeit used to be Oscar Wild's
house, but it was he was

That is so cool.
Of course, Oscar Wilde is on theGays reading artwork

great.
Yeah.
Yeah, I saw that.
I saw it.

that, so you're like, the spirit of Oscar is
with us today.

Yeah.
If there was a portrait in theattic, it would be me at this
point.
I I live up in the attic andthere's a big old building with
many and no lift.

Oh, how no lift.
Oh, geez.

I'm up six flights of stairs every day down.
So it keeps me healthy.

I know we just met, and this is probably
inappropriate to say, but whatI'm hearing is that you have a
nice butt.

yeah, Yeah, it keeps me tired.

Welcome to Gay's reading.
I am so excited to talk to youabout Open Heaven.

I have one here.
It's a.

It's a great, yeah.
You need to get like a print ofthis for your office or
something.

I do.
I have many secrets about thiscover as well.
Do you want an exclusive?

Of course.

Sarah, who designed the cover, who I haven't spoken
to, but I assume so the book isset in a village, Which is very
like a village I know, which islike where I grew up.
And when Sarah sent me this, Isee the pink pl, it's exact
shape of the outline of thecounty that I live in or that I

(04:20):
lived in.
And I have to just assume thatSarah knew that because it's the
exact outline of Cheshire.

That's very cool.
It looks like a, just a, like anink blot.

yeah, that's the sort of research she put in
there.

Wow.
That is such a good Easter egg.
Have you worked your elevatorpitch yet?
For open heaven.
All right.
Now is your t.

Two boys, one year.
Four seasons.
Small village.
One straight.
One Gay.
Gay.
One falls in love with theother.
One.
Torture and romance in used.

yeah.
I don't even know that you wouldneed to say sexualities

No.

conceptually.
'cause I, what I love so muchabout the book is that there is
this like love,

Yes.
And know what I wanted to dowith the book was produced.
So inside, so the main characteris called James.
I wanted you to be so inside hishead that you also weren't sure
about the nature of therelationship.
'cause I think, I don't know iflike me, you.
Like terrible when in love.
you know, When you fall in loveor even if you have a crush on

(05:35):
someone and you're justconstantly looking for signs
from them did they mean to justtouch my arm like that?
Or was that just an accident orare they sending me a secret
Message?
So I wanted to put you likeright inside his head as he's
trying to decode it and maybeyou can't tell what's fantasy
and what's reality as you go.

that is very true.
I would co-sign.
That is true.
Because you brought that up, wecould probably talk for an
entire hour about what, being inlove, what being infatuated
with, what having such deepemotions make us do, make us
feel, make us suffer through.
Do you have any examples of Idon't wanna say, do you have

(06:18):
examples of how crazy you werewhen you've been in love?
But I guess that's maybe sort ofwhat I'm asking.

I mean, I have many, none of which are like
anything less than mortified.

I'll happily share one of mine too.
So you're not, you don't feelalone.

I just used to do this thing where I remember
going to the cinema with a guywho I was like, obsessed with
when I was maybe about 16 or 17.
And he, and we went with one ofmy friends who was a girl.
And obviously that this wholething was entirely in my head.
Halfway through the film theystarted kissing.
I stand up, I lead the cinema intears.

(06:56):
I don't tell them where I'mgoing.
I get the bus all the way homeand I don't speak to them for a
week.
And, but neither of them knewwhy.
I just ran away.
And obviously from the outsidethat looks completely deranged.
But I think at that point, likeit was also in my head that I
thought it was real.
Like I was just convinced thatit was about to happen and it
was met with this, obviousevidence, sitting next to me

(07:18):
kissing that it was all in myhead.
I had this, snapped.
But there's many more things,but yeah.

I think that's such a good example because I
have learned through years of myown therapy that so much of my
anxiety comes from expectations.

Yeah.

And so you had this fantasy in your head, and I
think the term fantasy is veryinteresting in and of itself
because it fantasies aren'tnecessarily fantastical or
untrue.

That's the hard thing sometimes.
So sometimes they happen.
So how are.

Exactly.
I, so to, I, I said I wouldshare to make you not feel
alone, so I'm happy, but I wasolder than you, so this is even
more embarrassing.
So I was in college and it waslike Thanksgiving one year and a
friend's friend was in from outof town, and he came over to my
apartment with her and he and Ihad exactly what you described,

(08:17):
the are the looks.
The thing that I think they are,are the random touches, the
things that I think they are.
And then sure enough, he got mynumber from our mutual friend
reached out to me and saw me thenext day.
And we had this weekend longsort of love affair.
It was the beginning, themiddle, and the end of a

(08:37):
relationship in two days.
And I mean to the point wherethis, he was visiting in the
town where he grew up.
So he brought me to hischildhood home and he was like,
oh, I'm so excited to kiss youin my childhood bedroom and oh,
let's go do this thing and let'swalk my dog together and I'll
bring you back to your apartmentand we'll have fun and yada yada
yada.
So then the weekend is done andhe's going back to school and I

(08:59):
was like, maybe we could trylong distance or whatever.
And he was like no, that's

That was it.

right.
That was it.
It was this weekend thing and Iwas devastated and I went a
little crazy.

But I, I think what I think about, when you really,
first off, that sounds like afilm and two it's also when you
have that like intense thing andit seems like that guy had an
intense thing for you or elsewhy would he be bringing you to
his childhood home?

Yeah, no, it was very strange.

But I think when you have this intense, like day
or two, we've all had those likedates that kind of, then you go
to another bar and then you'reit's oh, should we do this?
'cause you don't wanna leave.
And it feels like time justexpands.
But you also, it is amazing howmuch you can invest in an idea
in such a short space of time.
It sounds crazy from the outsideuntil you've been there.

Mm-hmm.

I don't think that's a crazy thing at all.
I have done the exact samething, so we're not crazy,
right?

No, we're not crazy.
We're not crazy together.
What are you doing tomorrownight?
Do you want to go out fordinner?

Yeah.

You said time expands and the first line of
the book is time runs fasterbackwards.
I based, you literally justsaid, time expands.
So many of the chapters in thebook start with phrases that are
very temporal and time related.
What is your relationship withtime?

I wrote that first section of the book, so the,
like the prologue part of thebook a little bit later.
I actually remember where I was.
I was in Providence, RhodeIsland in Ka.

Oh.

All places.
And I was thinking about, one ofthe weird things is that being
alive is, you have to liveforward and you're entirely
unprepared for what's comingbecause everything is new.
But looking backwards is theonly way that you can understand
things that have happened andput them into a context like you
are not really able to do thatas you are living day to day.

(11:00):
There is not the process andpower to, to put things in.
I wondered about the unevennessof our life.
Like the past is so much biggerand heavier than the future
sometimes, and we can findourselves being pulled backwards
into this orbit of things thathave context, that kind of, we
process all the time.

(11:22):
We think about all the time andthe future is this kind of airy,
possibility.
And I don't know.
I think about that a lot and Ialso think I tend to, no,
probably everyone does, right?
We live most of our lives in theidea of the past.
I think we're like generallymaybe a survival mechanism or
something,

Partly survival.
I think because we learn fromour past we are able to survive,
not burning our hand on thestove because we remember what
happened when we touched it thefirst time.
You talking about the past,being bigger and heavier is
interesting because there issomething about getting stronger

(12:03):
as we move forward and giving usthe strength to carry the heavy
past.

Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think sometimes, the,sometimes the heavy pass is
book.
And it is, it's weighing down onyou.
And I think in this book, Iwanted to start it in, it starts
in 2022 and then goes back intime.
Because there's still I thinkthere's multiple things that's
still dragging down on thischaracter that he needs to sort

(12:31):
out.
So I had this vision of arewinding And going back in time
and almost like trying toisolate the point at which he
becomes himself.
And whether that can be undoneor not.

Some of how you do that in the book involves
sense memory.
James goes back to this town,he.
Goes to the farm where thesekindling of these feelings began
and he smells the farm.
And I did a little bit ofresearch on s sense memories

(13:06):
because I find them so impactfuland I never really thought to
look into why.
And apparently the olfactorysystem in the brain is connected
to our emotion center and ourhippocampus, which is our memory
center, and senses evoke strongemotional memories instantly

(13:28):
because they bypass the normalprocesses.
And so like you literally cansmell something and immediately
be transported back to a momentbecause of the direct link to
the memory.

that's happened to me a couple of years ago, so
this is either embarrassing ornot, I dunno.
But

Nothing's embarrassing on gay's reading.

my, my boyfriend's mom was, so her next door
neighbor used to work in like adepartment store and they had
this thing where they, when theyhave like perfume test, But they
throw them out when they're lessthan half full because it looks
bad

Uhhuh, huh?

So she used to be able to get the half empty at
once.
We would go over and she wouldhand them out and be like, I
have I have the Marla perfume orwhatever.
And I was sitting there and itwas in the middle of the day in
the garden.
And she sprayed this Chanelperfume and it was my gran who
died when I was like 10.

Wow.

But I, and I couldn't have told you what.
Perfume she wore and then Iimmediately started crying and
no one knew why I was crying,but it, like getting a hug from
my grand'cause I could smelllike the smell of her skin.
And it's very weird.
I just immediately, like thepast and present were just
joined together.
And I was eight years old withmy gran.

(14:52):
And then she gave me the bottleand I've not opened the bottle.
'cause I can't deal with openingthe bottle.

What's amazing is when you're able to pinpoint it
you can pinpoint the scent andyou can pinpoint the memory.
I have a somewhat similarexample you've mentioned having
never been to LA before, andhere's a plug for our
conversation in LA at Book Soupon April 18th.
But dear friends of mine movedout to la They were a few years

(15:19):
older than me and I went tovisit them when I was a teenager
and.
At the time they were wearingthe artist Brido.
He has these like very specificart pieces.
It doesn't really matter, buthe's an artist and apparently he
also had a cologne and they,that became their scent the very

(15:40):
beginning of their time in la.
And I wanna say I was at somestore where you can buy discount
clothes and colognes and things,and they had a bottle of this
cologne years later and I boughtit and immediately was
transported back to my teenyears, the first time I was in
la.

(16:01):
And I think I got rid of it.
I might still have it, but it'sone of those things where it's
so bizarre to be able totransport yourself in a way by
smelling something.

Yeah.
I mean it's a, it's like a, itseems to just bypass so much
stuff in your head andimmediately fuse, fuse time
together in a weird way.
I,

Yeah.

when I was writing the book so it's set over the
four seasons and I tried towrite each season.
When I was in the season that I,so I began,

Oh,

and then I went to spring, when it was spring at,

That's very, I'm a poet of you.

thank you.
Yeah.

No.
Oh my God.
I'm gonna give you a complex, Ireally meant that in a deeply
charming way.
I'm very charmed by it, so Idon't mean it in a bad way.

That was a good way of getting that sensory, smells
or the way that light falls in acertain month or whatever,
because it's hard to remember itall when you're if I was sitting
at the desk in winter and I wastrying to write springtime, it
would be full of even though howmany springs have I lived
through?
You need the immediacy of it toget it onto the page properly.

And strangely enough, that's where you get a
cliche.
You would end up with a clicheof spraying because it is what's
coming to mind versus deeprealities of it.

Yeah.
Possibly.
Yeah,'cause yeah.
Yeah.
So I, that was one cliche, but Itried to I wrote during reasons.
Yeah.
What other cliches can I giveyou?

Oh my God.
Stop it.

I can just try them out.
No, but yeah, sensory memory wasa big thing and I had this
almost at the start of brideshad revisited when he goes back
to the house and it's becomelike a military all the soldiers
are stationed in bright set.
And he goes back and he hasthis, and I think he goes to the
chapel and then, the storyemerges out there.

(17:55):
You go I think I stole it from,I,

Yeah, I think that's, there is that sort of
concept of you, you findyourself in a place that you
knew once upon a time and you'retransported back.
There's this realization thatJames May not have actually left
the place behind, and do youeven think that we do leave
places behind?

no, I don't think so.
I think, so I lived in a villagevery like this.
And now I've, now I live inDublin and I've lived here for a
long time.
But I think I'm essentially theperson that was raised in that
village.
I am not a Dublin.
I don't, it's not, I live here,but it's not me.
No matter how much I would tryand change that.

(18:39):
I think I am a villagey person.

Are you open to adaptation?

Yeah.
Is that an offer?

No.
I grew up, I don't know howfamiliar you are with the United
States geography, but I grew upin South Florida, which is a
very specific place.
I went to school in Chicago andI lived for over 10 years in New
York City.
And I don't know how long you'vebeen in Dublin, but I would say
that I, it got to a point whereI don't consider myself a

(19:11):
Floridian anymore.
I've spent so much of myformative time living in a big
city that I am a, I'm a citymouse, and I.
There I think are pieces of methat I can still see from my
past.
We don't leave these placesbehind.
But I think I was open toadapting to the new space.

yeah.
I definitely am.
I guess what I mean is, if youthink of, places you experience
as an adult, I think have aparticular, you, you have a
particular way of experiencingit.

Yeah.

I could, if I think of my living room from when I
was like five, I could tell youwhat color the carpet is, what
the curtains look like, what theCurtain looked like, the, what
the key felt like to get intothe record cabinet or whatever.
I have such a strong memory ofall those things, and I, I was
speaking to my mom about thisand she couldn't remember what
curtains we had, and I, but theywere they were the only curtains

(20:10):
I'd ever seen, and they werecurtains.
So I have a really strong memoryof them, whereas now, I couldn't
tell you what curtains I had inthe first house.
I moved in, in Dublin.
I have no

That is so interesting and I think really
changed my perspective on evenwhat I just said because I
remember my childhood address, Iremember my phone number, I
remember, the neighbors.
I don't remember any of theaddresses of the places that
I've lived in since, some, butmostly not.
And similarly I was talking tomy mom about a car that she had

(20:42):
at some point, and she didn'tremember that it even existed.
And it's the car that I took mydriving test

Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you remember it.

So of course I remember it.

I can still, I still know the license number of
the first car.
It was a red renos vest.
L

how funny.

I I remember, and I have no idea what any license
number I've had since, and mymom actually has my.
The mobile phone number, whichwas my first mobile phone'cause,
and she still has it.
And that's the only phone numberI have, but I know that one.

That's so funny.

I think maybe I'm for remembering things.
Just get

yeah, it's, that's very true.
How does your coming out storycompare to James's experience?

Very different.

Yeah.

am I coming out story?
I was the only person in schoolso that's that is similar to
James.
But I volunteered theinformation.

Yeah.

I was well with the help of alcohol, but there was a
big house party.
It was actually on a farm.
And everyone was really drunkand I got really of drunk.
And I told someone, and then Iguess I just had the, a kind of
moment where I was like, I'vetold one person, I may as well

(22:01):
just walk around this houseparty and tell every single
person I encounter.
So I did that and then the nextday I woke up and I was like, oh
shit.
I told, 200 people last night,so I better tell my parents
because like

It's a small town,

someone we'll find out anyway, so I'm go down and
tell them.
When I came out in my school,there was no one else that had
come out.
So I was thinking, if.
There would've been no one elsefor James as well, if he was
there.
Find this weird thing.
I remember I used to work inthis cocktail bar in the village
and I went back after I'dfinished university because I

(22:37):
didn't have a, like a job oranything.
So I just went back and workedin this cocktail bar and this
boy, he was probably about 15,came up to me and was like, you
were the gay guy in school.
And I think he must have clockedme when he was like maybe 11 or
12, because I was maybe one atthe time.

(22:59):
So that was weird becauseobviously I didn't know who he
was, but I was somehow likefamous for being the only gay.
Obviously I wasn't, people havecome up but.

Sure.
No, it's, I remember when I wasin high school, I think I'm
maybe a hair older than you.
The, there were like four of us,and we all had our own journey,
right?
Like I was the, I was a feederkid, but I was also just I was
very liked, but also kept tomyself.

(23:33):
I wasn't really, I didn't reallymake a spectacle of things.
Then there were other peoplewho, wore rainbow clothes to
school and felt that they neededto be a quintessential
homosexual compared, notdissimilar from, will and grace.
And I think that sort of estawe, we established these strange

(23:53):
roles throughout our high schoolexperience.
I.

Yeah.
You have to demarcate yourself.

Yeah.
Something interesting comes upin the book the idea of breaking
a taboo when James has admittedthat he has desires and is no
longer innocent.
And I realize that's such aninteresting shade of coming out.
Like you don't think, oh, I'mnot just talking about, I'm not

(24:21):
just sharing a piece of myself.
I'm not just sharing mysexuality.
I am saying that I am havingdesires.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it's a really weirdsituation because it, if you're
straight you don't have to go upto your parents and be like, I
wanna have sex with women.
But implicitly in what you'resaying as a 15-year-old or
16-year-old, however old youare, is I am a sexual being.

(24:48):
I'm no longer a child.
Kind of demarcating that break.
And I think in some ways for aparent, that must be a quite a
strange thing depending on theage you are when it happens.
But either way I think, we don'ttend to talk about sex with the
parents.
And it is the one moment atwhich you actually have to
implicitly do that.

(25:09):
Yeah, I, and I, so I think it isa bit of a taboo breaking thing.
'cause you're demarcatingchildhood and adulthood
yourself.
You're doing it yourself.

Yeah.
And there's conversation too inthe book about struggling to be
seen as an adult in anenvironment where people see you
as a child.

yeah,

And I talk a lot about.
How being an adult is a farceand is not real and is an
illusion.
And I think, the older you get,the more you're like, oh, when
am I gonna become an adult?

yeah.
Yeah.

Because there's always, I'm sure plenty of
people will argue with me, but Idon't feel like I know
everything in quotes, the waythat I think a younger me
would've thought I would'veknown in my mid to late
thirties.
You know what I mean?

Yeah, and I think as a teenager you have this
weird thing where in your headyou are all, you have it figured
out, even though all evidencemight say to the contrary.
And it is incredibly, I rememberbeing incredibly frustrated at,
having to follow rules, go toschool not stay out past x time

(26:22):
Be watched and everythingbecause I, when you're like 16,
17, 18, you're like ready to doit on your own, but you are
treated like the same as if youwere like 12.
And there's this window where,where you're held, you're like
in a holding pen for adulthooduntil you out

it's funny, I was just remembering, this was like
a week ago.
My husband and I were withfriends of ours who are even
older than us, and it's a longstory, but there was cake and we
brought cake to their house andthey at the time went by and
they said, oh, should we eatcake even though, it's five

(27:03):
o'clock and we haven't haddinner and whatever.
And I literally said, I waslike, this is the perk of being
an adult.

we can eat cake whenever.

can eat cake whenever.
It doesn't matter.

Yeah.
Sometimes I get that sense too,I am always, in terms of
breakfast I'm the most boringbreakfast person ever.
'cause I never really hungry inthe morning, so I just eat a
banana and some cereal orsomething.

I've only had a banana so far today too.
I admit I get it

Like sometimes when I wake up, I suppose
particularly if I've had a drinkthe night before and I'm like, I
could have anything, want rightnow, there's no one to stop me.
So if I want to get up and makelike pancakes and pour chocolate
on top of it and whatever Iwant, I can do that and I can

(27:51):
eat it in bed and can stop me.
And that's very freeing.
But sometimes we need to stopourselves, this could go wrong.
This sort of like justpermissiveness.
But yeah.

And interestingly enough, again, I'm just thinking
about this if to do somethinglike I'm an adult and I'm gonna
order a pizza at eight o'clockin the morning because I can, to
someone who only, who has knownus since childhood or who sees
us as younger than them, thatcan come across as childish,

(28:24):
which is very, it's it's, I'mcurious to hear what, go ahead.
What were you gonna

I was gonna ask I remember when my memoir came
out.
It was 2022, I was 30, I was 31going on 32, and there was a
tenant in one of the reviewscalled me something like a Wise
Child and.

(28:49):
Which, in some ways it was likea, they tried to put it on the
book jacket and I was like,please do not put that on the
book jacket.
And one thing I realized waslike, at my age, my parents had
all three of our, of us, theywere married, had a half, blah,
blah, blah, blah.
But I wonder if in some way,because I don't have children

(29:09):
because I'm not married, maybeI'm like also perceived as
having this kind of childishlifestyle.
Like it's not meditation ofadulthood, which are like
children, marriage, a mortgage,whatever.
And so even though I just don'treally see how 32 could be a

(29:31):
child, unless you're like reallyold.
I wonder if in some, I don'tthink it's just like queer
people.
'cause I think some straight.
Women friends have the samething too.
But yeah, it just kinda struckme about all the different ways
in which we're perceived asbeing like a child who is an

(29:51):
adult.
Anyway maybe part of thatobservation about the teenager
came from me feeling like achild being treated an adult as
a child.
Yeah.

so interesting.
And I'm like, horrified for you.
That's very frustrating.
there are so many juxtapositionsand paradoxes throughout the
book and the idea of James beingafraid of men, but also only
feel safe if there's a mannearby.
And I, it had me thinking aboutjust other paradoxes as a queer

(30:21):
person not being attracted towomen, but.
Having so many female friendsand wanting them in my life.
The, there's a scene in thebook, and this is not giving
anything away but James isaroused by seeing naked women
because he's, because of theidea of a man being aroused by

(30:46):
that naked woman is arousing tohim, and that's also interesting
and complicated.
Are there other aspects of beinga queer person that are so
paradoxical that come to mindfor

I think, yeah, I was, the more I was describing
James, with his weird idea of hehas a kind of jealousy of women
because of male desire.
And I.
Maybe that's a sort of paradox,like feeling safe around women
and disliking men, but wantingto be like a woman so that the

(31:21):
guys would fancy, like he hasthis whole like, gender mess in
his head that he's trying tofigure out as well.
Other paradoxes one thing,

maybe the answer is no.

One of them I think as well is wanting, being
relatively afraid of themasculinity of straight men
Being massively attracted to themasculinity of straight men,
which is his kind of key thing,that's his like, ongoing pattern

(31:53):
is that he.
He can only, I suppose the otherone is he can only want
something when he doesn't haveit.

Yeah.

And the second he gets something, it collapses
some sort of momentum insidehim.
It's like you know that you canonly desire something.
You don't

there's this very interesting dance between
anticipation and desire,

Yeah.
And fulfillment

right?

in almost as soon as the fulfillment.
I think in James has said, maybethis is like after the book but
I think in his head, oncesomething is fulfilled, he's not
fulfilled.
So he has this like weird kindof ongoingness to

Yeah.
Sometimes the thing that isattractive, the thing that is
exciting is the chase.

Yeah.
Yeah.
And.

And then once you catch it, then it's not exciting
anymore.

Yeah.
And part of me, some of the bookcame from I was speaking to so
many friends over the yearswho's who said, the first person
I loved was my straight friend.
Or like, I had this guy that I,we were very close and I always
thought there was somethingthere, but now he's married to,
to a woman and they have And I,part of my question was like,
what does that do to yourmindset?

(33:13):
If your kind of formativeunderstanding of love and desire
is for someone who will neverreciprocate, that you understand
love and desire as somethingunreciprocated.
And so when it's reciprocated,it doesn't feel like love and
desire.

Interesting.
It, there was a moment.
In the book that I probably justunderlined and didn't actually
write down in the sense of aquestion But it made me think of
that line from Moulin Rouge.
The greatest thing you'll everlearn is just to love and be
loved in return.

know I'm gonna get beaten off this podcast, but I
haven't seen it.
You'll face Yeah, no, I've neverseen one march.

Interesting.
Are you're literally turningred.
That's okay.
You're, listen, you are provingthat you are not a cliche,

that is true.

But you have a month and a half to rectify this
before we meet in person.

Okay.
I.

Do you like theater?
Do you like theatrical things,heightened things?

Um,

Say no.

I like theater.
I'm lukewarm on musicals.

Mm,

It a musical?

It's, yeah, the short answer is

It has like pop songs in there.

Yeah.
Yeah.
It's songs that you have heard,or at least you could also
listen to on the radio if you'venot heard of them.
But it's this, it is a lovestory that is so epic and
romantic in quotation marks thatI think the only way it can be

(34:48):
visualized is through this likespectacle.
And that's why it is, I think, amusical.

I feel like I've seen so much of Moulin Rouge
that when I watch it, maybe itwill just feel like I've already
seen it.

You also don't have to watch it.
It's really fine

No I have certainly gaps in my

in your queer canon.

yeah.
Principally musicals.
I think.
Yeah, there's something aboutpeople singing happily.
I like a sad musical, maybethat's my own sort

Moulin Rouge, I would argue is sad.

I'll watch it.

Yeah.
I was having a conversation witha guest recently about musicals
and she was like, how couldpeople not love musicals?
I was like, listen girl, so manypeople I talk to cannot get on
board with a person justbreaking out into

Yeah.
I think I do have like favoritemusicals, but I think that my

What are they?

capacity I love the sound of music and she just
breaks into song all the time,and that's like a very campy,
whatever.

Not what I was expecting, but also the Nazi
show up at the end.

I love how that film just gets I don't know, I
have whole theories about thisfilm.
Do you know how it like startson the, sorry I told you
musicals, but I do have theoriesabout sound of music.

Tell me

I just think, you know how it, like you start up
in the mountains and it's likeblue and green and technical and
whatever and as you go throughthe film, the spaces get smaller
and the film gets darker to thepoint where you're like
scurrying through a tunnel atthe end.
So it feels like this whole filmjust closes all the way down to

(36:28):
the and I like that.
I like how it just progressivelyconstructs

yeah.
Oh, okay.

big fan of the sand music.
I also Oliver, I used to reallylike Oliver.
I was actually in littleShopifys in school.

Who did you play?

I was the dentist.

You were.
That's shocking, but I'mobsessed.

don't really remember much about it.

You blacked

Job was as the dentist, I was putting teeth
out.
I don't know.

You had a song.

Had a song.
My mom was really, is reallyobsessed with some musicals.
She used to sing them a lot, soI actually, I know a lot of the
songs from musicals'cause shelisten to them in the car, but
I've actually seen the musicalthat they get along.

That's okay.
So Sound of Music and Oliver arethings you enjoy and you were in
little shop

Yeah.

Okay,

It's quite a mixed bag.

It's, I'm very intrigued.
I think that says a lot aboutwho you

It's a, of culture Makes no sense.

James in the book is a an assistant to the
milkman.
First of all, because the book,that plot line doesn't take
place that long ago.
I mean, It does frustratingly asa person who feels like two,
2002 was not that long ago.
But I did a little research'cause I was curious.

(37:53):
Apparently presently 3% of milkpurchases in the UK are
delivered and 0.4% in the UnitedStates.
It's a very small number,

a small number.
Yeah.

but it does still happen.

We used to it was actually my brother that worked
for the Notman.
I didn't work for the Notman.

I was gonna ask what your job was.
'cause I assumed you didn't workfor the milkman, but your
brother did.
Oh my God.

I had a paper round.

A paper round.

Which I.

You made a face about it.

I used to hate it because it was a free paper, so
it had all of these it wasbasically funded by advertising.
All the advertising was inleaflets.
So what they would do is theywould deliver you the papers and
then they would deliver you like10 packs of leaflets and you
have to individually put all theleaflets in.
So that took like the wholeSunday night, like maybe three

(38:43):
or four hours of just puttingthe leaflets in the pavers.
And then you would have todeliver them.
And I think I wanna go, say Idelivered them on a Thursday and
I think I got five pounds aweek.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it wasn't like it was badmoney then, but I had to have a
job.
'cause we weren't like a pocketmoney family,

yeah.

so it was more, I think I, so long as I had this
job, my parents would considerspending money on me.
But if I wasn't.
I didn't have any initiative anddoing anything then.
But my older brother, yeah, heused to do the milk round.
They had him up really earlythough.
I think you have to get up atfour or five.
But

James had to wake up very early in the

yeah.

You were just talking about your parents and a
little bit of, your childhoodand your behavior.
Were you a rule follower?

Yes, in comparison to my brothers.
Yeah.
Yeah, my, my older brother brokeall of the rules, so by that
point it probably wasn't thatattractive for me to break rules
because

Yeah.

it was nothing new.
So I followed them.

So similar to James,'cause James is a rule
follower and being in troublestresses him out.
He is very clearly attracted towhat one might call a bad boy.
Is that true for you?

I have learn my lesson.
But yeah, I supposeinstinctively, yeah.

Oh,

But to the, I think to the point of attracted to you
but would never pursue becauseit would, you know, I know that
I would go like just sort loopy.

Yeah, no, I get that.
Do you remember there's thislike great little moment in the
book of James remembering themoment he sees Luke For the
first time.
Do you have one of thosememories, whether it's someone
from your childhood or yourboyfriend, or do you remember
that sort of first moment ofseeing that person?

Yeah.
I think I remember the firstmoment of seeing quite a lot of
people.
I remember the first moment ofseeing my boyfriend although I
don't know if I'm inventing thatmemory,'cause I know where we
were.

Oh, interesting.

his face now onto.
I don't know, I find itdifficult sometimes to remember
what people used to look like ifyou see them a lot, you lose
that earlier face.

What you just said is such an interesting
color a shade of the bookitself, because what is the
memory?

Yeah.
I think in this book I wantedyou to know, kinda right from
the start, there's a couple ofmoments in the prologue where
James obviously lies to people.
Like the bartender in the pub helies to, and the reader that
he's lying because he's alreadytold something.

The real estate agent he

Yeah.
Yeah.
So I wanted you to know that heis in some ways an editor of
memory also, that he has certainthings he.
Maybe doesn't want to tell youor maybe never tells you
outright through the book.
And there are certain things aswell that are nostalgic for him.

(41:55):
And I think, in general,nostalgia has a bad rep and I
understand why.
But I think that every singleperson has these nostalgic
things and I don't know peopleseem to talk about nostalgia
it's like an indulgence and akind of a lie, a fantasy thing.

(42:15):
But I think it's also somethingthat we do to build up stories
for our life.
Like there, there are momentsthat mean a lot to us and we
wrap them in this kind ofcolorful shroud of nostalgia.
It is almost like making asacred thing of something in, in
a.
And I don't think that'snecessarily bad.

(42:36):
I think if anything it just isindicative of the sort of person
that we are.
And yeah, so James first seesLuke in a very Luke moment.
He is like smoking a cigaretteand he is annoyed.
He's in trouble and he isavoiding doing work at the back
of a barn.

(42:56):
But he's beautiful, it's a, andhe has a sort of energy that the
James doesn't have which is a Isuppose he just feels very alive
to James'cause he's not reallythinking, or he appears not to
be thinking about other peopleand not bothered about what
other people think.
Although I think at variouspoints that mask slips off has,

(43:18):
in some ways we.
We project other people into theworld as much as we see them.

For better or for worse

yeah.

Talking about memory, there are also sequences
about dreams.
Do you remember your dreams?

Quite often I, I have some like very vivid dreams
that I remember to the point of,maybe I had them about 15 years
ago, and I can still rememberthe dream.
Most nights I, I think I, Idon't remember them or that kind
of true.
But there have been a couple ofbig dreams in my my mainly
because they tend to be verysurreal.
I, yeah, I don't want to boreyou by telling you my dreams,

(43:57):
but yeah, I did actually have adream.
There's a number of dreams thatJames has in the book.
I don't wanna,

oh, sorry.

I don't wanna give spoilers because I the content
of the dream.

That's why I interrupted you.
So now I'm curious because Jamesalso has reoccurring dreams.
Do you have reoccurring dreams?

I did at one point.
I had, and I won't tell you whatthe dream was because it's
similar to to James's recurringdream, but I had a very similar
set of dreams.
I don't really know where theycame from and then stops.
But they always involvedtunnels.
I, it was either like, I was ina tunnel, I was in the, in a

(44:37):
river bed and it was dried outthat I couldn't get out the side
of it.
I was running away.
I was, but it was alwaystumbles.
I don't,

Were you at the end of the Sound of Music?

yeah, just singing.
Yeah, I just, I, I rememberhaving this feeling of being
chased and I was in a tunnel.
Or usually I'd done somethingreally wrong, but I dunno what
the thing wrong was, but I waswrong.

oh, interesting.
I don't remember whatreoccurring dreams were when I
was a kid, but I remembered howthey made me feel and there was
a specific like cadence to thedream and in turn sort of my
emotional response to it.
And that has reoccurred somewhatrecently in adulthood.

Was it a dream or a nightmare?
Would you, what, how would youcharacterize it?

That's a good question.
I don't know, maybe something inbetween.

Yeah, I only ask because I think the bad thing
about recurring dreams is whenyou have one, if you have it
again, you then become afraid ofthe dream.
I, I remember as a teenagersometimes being afraid of going
to sleep because I thought thatthe dream would.
Happen again because I'd had ita number of times.

(45:51):
And yeah, it wasn't that bad adream, but like I just remember
building it up into this thingthat I didn't want to go sleep
it, like nightmare on Elm Streetor something.

Oh, wow.
Yeah.
How do you sleep at night whenthat's the case?

Drop off to sleep.
But sometimes I would do thisthing where I would return to
the dream.
Do you ever do that?

Oh

No.

Oh yeah.
I know.
There we can have a wholeconversation about that, I'm
sure.
And what that means.
There is a moment where Jamestalks about listening to his
mixed CDs.
What would be on yours?

Oh God.
In 2002 or now,

Let's say both.

I actually I've made a Spotify playlist that I
think is James's Spotifyplaylist.
I.

Yeah.
No, I wanna know yours.
I don't want to know James's.
I want to know yours.
And then we could also, I couldlink the, I could link that
Spotify playlist in the episode.

Okay, so here is on it.
George Michael straight onthere.
Maybe like father figure or whoelse?
I love Julie.
Did you hear Millie Jackson?

No.

listen to Millie Jackson.
She has this album that I foundin a record shop, and then I
became so obsessed with it.
It's called Feeling Bitchy.

I'm so excited.

it has this 10 minute song at the start that's
like part rap, part song, andshe's amazing.
Anyway so I feel like I need tospread the good word.
She's the one that's saying, ifloving you is wrong, I don't
want to be right.
But that's on a different album.
But that's the song that peopleknow.
I am also big into folk music.
So Shirley Collins is my queen,and she would be up there on any

(47:34):
mix tape that I have.

Okay.

And Bessie Smith.
I love Bessie Smith.
I love a sad lady.

Why does that not surprise me?
I mean, You're a fricking poet.
Of course.
You love sad ladies.
Who would be on mine?
That's a good question.
But you talking about likingfolk music?
I'm a big Yola fan.
Do you know Yola?

No.

Oh, and she's from the UK too.
You Yeah.
I think you'd be into

Okay.

It's very like soulful folk.

On the list.
Yeah

what would be on mine?
I am talking about nostalgia.
I'm such a sucker for the SpiceGirls and things from my

yeah,

And I don't know.
I love a good, I love a goodsong with a good hook.
I think it depends on

yeah.
I, Kate Bush, I need to put KateBush on there.
But yeah, I was making a kind of2002 playlist.
It's so much bad music from areal D year.
'cause I think it was atransition between the nineties,
which felt like authentic in itsown way and between indie music,
which I feel like the naughtieswere, became that, or

uhhuh.

there's this moment in 2002 three when no one knows
what the fuck is going on, andthey're just like putting out
songs that have no coherence.
There's no sound of 2002.
It's all just a myths.

I think that's maybe.
Part of what makes itinteresting, right?
It's like a little bit of thepast, a little bit of the future
and,

I mean, there are also pretty good, really good
songs for it.
But there's also,

but you, but there's not like a sound

no, also, like in 2002 there would be like in the
nineties too, there'd be likeone song and that was like this,
the number one for four months.
And that was the song.
The 2002 was Dilemma.
Nelly and Kelly that was thatsong

Would not have

also very 2002.

Avril Levine.
Oh, sure.

and then Pink arrived 2003 and saves a day.

God bless Pink.
What was I just gonna say aboutmusic?
Oh, contextually I find itinteresting.
Are we dancing?
Are we having, wine night.
Are we at a dinner party?
Are we doing work And listeningto music in the background, I
would've a different answer forall of those

yeah.
Fair.
I think you need adaptableplaylists.

Yeah, I know.
I was just thinking about how Ineed to do like a gym playlist,
a getting ready for an interviewplaylist.
I need to, I need my different

yeah.
Yep.
Yeah, it's a lot of work.

I know it's worth investing.
You said naughties and you'rethe second author in a row that
has second UK author in a rowwho has used the term the
Naughties.
And I've never, I've heard theknots, but I've never heard the
naughties.
And I'm

What do you say?

Honestly, we say the two thousands, which is
ridiculous.

I don't know it, it's just the naughties.
Yeah.

I, the naughties is way more fun.
I'm gonna start saying thenaughties and we're gonna, we're
gonna make it happen here in thestates.

You need to take that to the states.
It needs to be

Yeah.
No, we're gonna, this is themoment, Sean.
We're starting the naughtiesright now.
I have, I'm so excited that weget to continue this
conversation in person'cause Ihave plenty of other things I'm
looking forward to talking toyou about.
But to end here, I, there'ssomething that comes up in the
book I'm curious to ask you.
You need to learn to enjoyyourself and it's a struggle.

(51:09):
I'm curious, is there somethingthat you've done?
Is there a way that you'velearned to enjoy yourself?

Yeah, I'm about to say the most geriatric thing in
the world.
really like gardening now.
I have spent so many hours andhours I've I've made a chart.
I'm planting my seeds.
I am got a cold frame.
I'm building beds.

(51:35):
I'm blissing out with my, I'veactually got soil in my nails
right now'cause I was digging.
And that's what I do.

Fantastic.

I know this really boring answer, but like it does
honestly.

Okay.
That I have a plant behind me.
I have other plants in my home.
If ever I have a question, I'mgonna send you a picture and be
like, Sean, help

Yeah.
I'm figuring it out, but yeah,and yeah, I do that a lot.
I do.

You're not the first person to say that.

Okay, good.
Maybe I think I'm having like aretreat to, to, to the garden.

I love this.

maybe, yeah.

You could read in the garden, you could write in
the garden.
There could be a garden poemthat comes up.

But I was just in the States and I kept on texting
my boyfriend being like, I needyou to send me photos of,
because, and I was so excited tocome back to see some of the
bugs are on the trees.
And I was like, I went aroundand I was like, what's out?
What's not?
Does she need a prune?
Does she need

Oh my God,

Yeah.

that's so fun.
The one thing I will leave youwith before we go is your
headshot is infuriating to mebecause not everyone looks good
in profile

I already

and you look so good in profile.
It's very frustrating.

I think I have, I think everyone has one good
side.
If I turn my head the other way,you wouldn't be saying that.

Oh, that's interesting.
But it also made me think,'causeI asked you about if you
remember seeing people for thefirst time.
It made me remember the veryfirst time I saw my husband was
in a Facebook, his profilepicture was literally his
profile.
That's the very first glimpse Iever had of him.
Anyway Sean Hewitt

Thank you.

open heaven, congrats

Out in April,

out in April and we will be live in person at
book soup on April, on Friday,April 18th.
Come hang out with us and thoseare all the

Yeah, we'll see you then.

See you there.
Look at you.
Look at all these books on yourshelf

Jeffery Self (53:37):
GA's reading, baby.

And the giant j marque le letter.

That right there?
Yes.
It's I, the first day I movedinto my apartment when I moved
back to New York, like a yearand a half ago, and I was
walking by the Housing Works,which is the Great Lake thrift

Freaking love

We love, and I was we had just moved back to the
West Village, or not back, I'msay back.
I had just moved back to NewYork, but moved to the West
Village and I walked by andthere was a giant lit up j in
the window and I bought it.
And then my husband arrived liketwo days later and was like,
what about an A for his name?
But we couldn't find one.
But here we are, a year and ahalf later,

I want it,

time for him.
I know.
It's it's beautiful.
It's it's really.
And it puts out really coollight at night.
Like when I turn off all thelights and watch a movie, it has
a nice aesthetic,

Okay, so years ago at the Broadway flea market,
I.

okay.
I love

the Ju Janssen organization had a table and
they were selling marqueeletters from above the St.
James that were from PhonsRainbow.
And they were these two giantends.
And for three years in a row, Ihad dreams of buying them and

(54:57):
making.
End tables out of them.

Hey, get outta here.
Get

I never did and it's one of my biggest regrets
and seeing that just dusted upthat trauma.
So

I get it.
I saw that production of Ian'sRainbow.
I saw those ends on the, onabove the building.

that production was very good

It was Cheyenne Jackson.
And who is the lady?
Kate Baldwin.
Kate Baldwin.
Yeah.
I liked it.

Baldwin.

And Chuck Cooper, he was really good.
Yeah.

Chuck Cooper and Chris Fitzgerald.
I know.

What a good show.

what a good show.

I just noticed Kathy Rigby popping over your
shoulder.

No,

Is That's what that is, right?

I'm

I love.

that you clock that.

I can clock Kathy Rigby from a mile away Baby.
I love that production.
I grew up with that.
I don't know if it was on VHS orDVD when I was a kid, but I
loved, it was so beautiful.
And I don't know if you rememberthe clip of her when she
performs at the Tony's and sheflies over the audience, which
is like unbelievable and thebest

my life.

It cuts to Goldie Han in the audience watching and
she is, I think she's with Kurt,I assume, and she leans over.
I don't know why.
Goldie, Han's to Tony's either.
And she like, she leans over toKurt and she goes, it's so
small, like talking about thecord holding her up.
She's she can't believe howsmall it is.
And it's like Goldie ha, you'veseen someone fly before?
This is 90 something in 2000,who knows?

(56:22):
But she was very impressed andit was impressive'cause she did
the flips and she was very good.

I have to watch rewatch that performance I

I do.
It's great.

that entire, production lives in my mind.
Rent free.
I am, I have her 1991 poster.
This is the 1996 poster.

Yeah.
That's the one I know.

And I also have her 2014 poster or whatever,
because she did it not long ago.
So I have these, I have thislike triptych of Kathy Rebe
getter.

I know this isn't the point of this podcast,
however, did you, did she like,runs a theater?
She and her husband,

Yes, in Southern California oh my God,

Is it La

with an lamada.

Yeah.
Which I went to see Greece atand she was not in it, but it's
in like a shopping mall in, inlike next to a, literally an LA
fitness.
It was a fascinating, I like wassmoking a joint between acts as
you do and I was outside of anLA Fitness.
It was like, I think this is thefirst time I've gotten stoned at
intermission of a musicaloutside of a LA Fitness.

Unless you're, I guess in outside of where
Blockheads used to be, if you'reseeing

I guess that's true.

There's a gym right there.

I've gotten stoned there.

that's so funny.
Jeffrey Self, welcome to Gay'sReading.

Hey, thanks for having me.
I love your podcast.
I think it's great.

Oh, thank you so much.

I really do.
It's I'm a gay and I love toread and I enjoy other gay
people reading.

Amazing.
I know, me too.
I, as if you've listened, youmight've heard me say before,
you don't realize how manypeople are actual readers until
you start talking about reading.

I know people don't flaunt it enough
everything else abouteverybody's fucking life, but
not I.
What they're reading.
I only post basically on mysocial media about what I'm
reading, so I feel like peopleare a little okay, we get it.
You read.
But I I wish I certainly wantpeople to be reading now'cause I
have a book coming out, but orat least buying books.
But I yeah,

That's all you need.
You just need them to buy thebooks.
It doesn't really matter ifthey're reading.

at the end of the day, yeah.

So I see all these beautiful books behind
you.

Yes,

I have a couple of them.

I bet you do.

what are you reading?

I am reading I literally am so obsessed with
it.
I'm not done yet.
I only, I'm like savoring it,but I'm reading the love of my
life, and I'm sure hopefullypeople haven't been obsessively
talking about this on here, butit is, Edmund White's work,
right?
It's I'm long time fan.
Huge fan.
I don't remember when I firstdiscovered his stuff.

(58:57):
I think weirdly, the first one Iever read.
No, that's not true, I guess wasprobably boy's own story, which
is like my least favorite.
But

okay.

it's

We're allowed to have a least

I don't care about like someone's childhood as
somebody literally just wrote abook that talks about his
childhood, but I,

But it's about you, Jeffrey.

Yeah.
But I, but I've got veryobsessed with his stuff and
weirdly, I think my favorite isone of his lesser known books, I
think.
But it's our Own Boy, is thatwhat it's called?
Yeah, something like that.
It's over here somewhere.
It's so I can look at that allday.
It's so good.
And then I love his firstmemoir, which is called City Boy

(59:37):
and it's excellent.
And then, look how many fuckingbooks this guy has written.
Holy

Oh wow.

shit, I know.
I.
I really wanna know him and Idon't know, maybe I'm gonna, I'm
just gonna put it out in theuniverse.
I've been doing that.
But what is the one that reallyour young man, it's great, it's
so sexy and his books are justbeautifully sexy.
He famously, literally wrote thejoy of gay sex.
Book.
I think he, I don't think he wascredited, but he literally wrote

(01:00:03):
the book on gay sex, which ishilarious.
And this new memoir is, it'scalled a Sex Memoir is so good
in that it literally just goesthrough all the men.
He's either had a fascinatingfuck with or fallen in love
with, or had a long-termrelationship with or briefly
dated it is, and he just writesso.

(01:00:25):
Beautifully and hilariously andpoignantly and it's just, also
he's a person who, he's in hiseighties was, is there pre aids
and post aids and it's a fa inall around New York City and
around the world.
And it's just such a fascinatingand cozy read.
It's just so I'm like.

(01:00:46):
It hit me this morning.
I was reading it because I onlyhave 30 pages left, but I was
like, oh fuck, this is gonna beover soon.
And I am so sad and I love thatfeeling with a book.
It's my favorite feeling whenyou're just like, oh, I don't
want this to ever end.
And I I think always feel thatway with his work.
And luckily he's written, abajillion books and they're
great rereads.

Jason Blitman (01:01:07):
I forget books once I finish reading them.
And so you can, you couldbasically re I could reread all
of them from beginning to end.

Jeffery Self (01:01:16):
I do.
I'm not a huge reread.
I have a handful of audio booksthat I re listen to, like I, I
listen to, which is here.
It's that the Tennessee WilliamsJohn Lar book.
Have you ever read that?

no.

unbelievable.
It's so dense.
But the audio book is read byElizabeth Ashley.
It is the best time you'll everhave in your life.

I think I saw Elizabeth Ashley in August, oage
County.

Did you I don't know about that.
Did she do it?
Look it up because I know ElleParsons did it.
Is that what you're thinking?
Or Felicia Rashad did it.

I saw both of them.

I saw, I always saw the original lady Deanna
Dunnigan, who's unbelievableand.

Ashley played Maddie Faye the sister.

That's right.
That's right.
She replaced brilliant.
Ran Rondy Reed.
Yeah.
Rondy Reed.
I love that play.
I'm very obsessed with thatplay.
I think I talk about it in my

it comes up multiple times in the books.

I do.
I'm pretty obsessed.
I'm pretty obsessed with it.
It's unbelievable.
I heard there's a possibleBroadway revival of that
happening they've been talkingabout for years, and I.
I heard the person that wassupposed to be doing it, and I
really wanted it, but we'll seeif that happens.
I'm not gonna, I'm not gonnastart any gossip, but it's Kathy
Rigby.
It's Kathy Rigby.

She could do anything.
She could do

I want her performing August Hostage County
next to that LA Fitness in, inla, California

No.
You know who's starring in itnext summer at gon is Sally
Struthers.

Is that true?
No, you're making it up.
No.
'cause she's always tellingother, this is always at a gun.
Quit Playhouse.
You're right.
You know who was there thissummer was Kathleen Turner.
And who's in in in little nightmusic

Yes.

Playhouse.

Knew I could make that joke to you, and you would
understand why I was saying it,because Sally Struthers does
every single show at a gunplayhouse no matter what.

she does.
And is she afraid of yours?

No.

I was gonna say 'cause I was gonna I don't know
her either, but I was actually,I went to a game night at her
house once, but I don't knowher.
I, and I met her.
She didn't play the game.
She was like in the other room.
It was very weird.
But I she did get a DUI when shewas doing nine to five at the
playhouse.

Oh my God, Sally,

Sally,

listen, you gotta have

honey, if you're at a, if you're at a gum quit
for this summer, why not?

right?
When she got pulled over, theywere like, oh my God, Sally, how
you doing?
How are the kids?

mean, It is weird.
She's not we haven't had a, likehow we give these people like
these renaissance moments.
Like I feel like Sally Swift isvery due, that type of, she's
not like Betty White old yet,but like she's due something
like that.

She just did this TV show with Ted Danson on

Oh, she's on that.
Oh, I'm happy to hear that.
Oh, good.

And she was great that I, yeah, I was very happy
to see her do that.
I saw her in the national tourof Greece in 1994.

saw her in Greece as

I saw her play Miss Hannigan in the national
tour of Annie.

Never gotten to see that.
Have you ever gotten to see herdo Dolly Levi?
Because she's been doing thatfor fucking

N no, but I'm pretty sure she was doing it in
Florida at some point when I wasgrowing up.
It

guar guarantee it.

yes she did the circuit.

Oh yeah.
Oh, a hundred percent.

We've brought up your book multiple times.
You've never once said the name,which is

oh, that's true.
So I have it self-sabotage.

This has to have been sitting in your brain for
your whole life.
The title?

well, I.
Yes.
I've in the past done I did Iused to do I don't wanna say
standup'cause it wasn't reallystandup, but like one man shows,
so much worse than standup andmuch trashier.
And I did one directed byMichael Arden actually that was
called Self-Indulgence.

(01:05:10):
And so I was no stranger tousing my name for a cheap title,
but.
As I was writing this book, andwhen I sold like the book
proposal, it wasn't called this,I didn't really have a title.
And then as I was writing it, Iwas like, wow, every element
about this in my life and mychoices are usually some form of

(01:05:31):
self-sabotage.
So it was a really good fit.
So it actually, it was like, asafe bet of a title, but also it
was like, oh no, this isactually what the book is about.

Yeah.
That's helpful.

It's good when the title is good.
Like

When it tells you what you're about to read.
But you have an endless Well,I'm looking forward to over the
next 30 years of your career.

I think I would like to do that.

Self-awareness,

yeah.
Self-destruction.

by myself.

Yeah.

I couldn't help myself.

Self annihilation.
It's all mostly negative.
But

No, I'm glass half full.
Jeffrey has to win.

Maybe one day in my nineties there'll be like
self-realization.

Oh, yes.
We're going on a journey here.

going on a journey.
Yeah.

One story in your book that I did read from
beginning to end I.
I started the story, I pulledthis out of my closet deep
inside my closet that I've nevershared with anyone.
Then I finish the story andrealize oh, this is gonna maybe
be, bring out more emotions thannot.
But there are so many thingsabout us as I'm learning about

(01:06:44):
you, that we are the same.
And this is one of the ways,

Okay.
Oh my god.
I had an autographed picture ofGary Beach.
Oh, that's so Gary.
Oh, that's beautiful.

I sent him a letter.

Did you?
Oh my God.
He didn't send me a fuckingpicture.

Because I sent a self-addressed, stamped envelope
and requested a signed headshot.

There you go.
You knew what you wanted.
What was your, Gary, be yourintro to Gary Beach?
Was it producers?
Was it beauty and the bees?
Do you remember what was

the producers.
I saw him in La

lage?
Yeah.
Yeah.

and then of course going, in the early days
of internet doing the re Oh, youknow what, no, I saw him in the
National Tour of Beauty and theBeast.

Yeah,

and a couple other people from the original
cast did the tour.
So that was my introduction andit was among the earlier
national tours that I saw.
And so it.
I was spoiled that a few peoplefrom the original company would
do the tour.

That's so indicative of him as well in
that and I as you know fromreading the story in the book,
he was a very big part of myearly twenties and I wrote him a
fan letter and we became reallyclose friends and he was very
much a mentor and Godfatheryfigure to me and, I talked about
in the book, and I and it wasimpossible to talk about him
without, but he was so like oldshowbiz, like old school showbiz

(01:08:06):
in that, like in that EthelMerman, Mary Martin kind of
tradition of he would do afucking Broadway show and then
go out on the road with it.
And that's that was so I feellike one of the last of that
type of.
Of era and he would, he, wentand did, the producers fucking
everywhere and like he went outon the national tour of Spam a
lot after winning a Tony Awardfor the producers, just this.

(01:08:28):
This type of idea.
And I think it was reallyimportant to him.
'cause I think, he grew up inoutside DC and saw so many of
those tours come to the KennedyCenter and that hub of culture
these days.
And, and I think was lifechanging for him.
And so I, that was a big thingfor him that would, you know,
about going out on the road anddoing these shows.

(01:08:48):
And oh, that's so cool.
I he's, as from reading, he wasone of the most important people
in my life ever.
So I love him a lot.
I miss him very much.

You are one of the very few people who has ever
seen.
One

love that.

I may or may not have a folder full of them.

I love that.
Oh, that's so lovely.

My nerd, the nerdy theater kid in Florida who
was like, dear so and

We're in

a sign.
Headshot, a suburb beforeLauderdale.

Okay.
Gary did because they lived inFlorida for a while and he did
post like him retiring fromBroadway.
He did.
I think he did.
Hello?
Dolly it the ju Jupiter.
Yeah.

Yeah.

He did it a couple times, but I think he did it
with Vicky Lewis there.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's right.

My high school chemistry teacher has season
tickets

That place is still there.

it is

Great.
I'm happy to hear.

so funny.
If we ever, if I, if you were toever invite me over for a drink,
you, and if you lose, if the Jgoes missing on the wall or if
that Rosie O'Donnell Barbie dollgoes missing, it was probably
me.

up there.
That's not just Ro you see whatthis is, right?
We have Rosie, obviously, wehave Bette, obviously in her
mermaid costume.
And most importantly we haveWhoopi, and this is her Star
Trek doll.
But I like to keep Whoopi andRosie next to each other.
'cause they don't really eachother in real life, but I, in my

(01:10:19):
house, they get along.
B Midler keeps them in line.
And I like to think of that asreality.
And

That's the beauty of dolls.
We could do whatever we want.

yes as a aging gay man who's just dusting his Rosie
O'Donnell doll.
Yes, it's yeah, not not a greatsign of my mental health, but
hey, here we are.

My husband and I were in a thrift store not that
long ago, and there I saw therosy plush, like in

Oh

I was like.
How weird would it be if Ibought this?
Would you

I would've bought it on the

to me?

On the spot.
We, every year my husband has toget he lets me pick, but we
choose one of these three to goon top of the Christmas tree
every year.
This year.

do you choose?

I just pick my, it's my mood.
I think.
Was it be this year?
No, it was Whoopi this year.
It was Whoopi this year.
But yeah, it's whoopi's harderof all these dolls because she's
very top heavy and'cause of thishat is quite heavy.

You need to give her like a big dress or
something.
A big

I don't, I'm, I don't think I'm at the level of
unhinged aging gay man that I'mmaking clo custom clothes for my
dolls, but I'm close.

yet,

We're getting there.

self-awareness.

yeah.

Jeffrey, I feel like I could talk to you all
day,

Same.
It's just so lovely.

so lovely.

Lovely to talk to you.
Um,

To talk to you.
Everyone go by.
Self-sabotage.

Thanks.
Yes, go buy my book.
Thank you.
And

Just buy

audio or

don't even, or buy the audio book.

I read it and yeah, buy it.
Maybe buy a couple and give'emto friends that are their own
worst enemies.

It's such a good gift we love.

Um, thank you so much for having me and, uh, long
lived.
Kathy Rigby.
Thank you, Sean.
Thank you Jeffrey.
Everyone make sure to go checkout Open Heaven by Sean Hewitt
and Self-Sabotage by JeffreySelf.
Thank you all so much for beinghere.
Have a wonderful rest of yourweek.
Bye.

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