June 6, 2025 • 47 mins
Host Jason Blitman sits down with legendary author Edmund White, a towering figure in gay literature, for what would become one of White's final recorded conversations. In this deeply personal conversation, they explore White's latest memoir The Loves of My Life, delving into his reflections on love's many forms, the intimate dynamics that sustain lasting relationships, and the remarkable literary legacy of one of America's most influential LGBTQ+ voices. White offers candid insights drawn from decades of both living and writing about love, loss, and the complexities of human connection.
Books and Boys and Big Dinners at Home How I’ll Remember Edmund White. by Christopher Bollen
A husband’s story: Michael Carroll reflects on life with Edmund White by Will Freshwater
Edmund White (1940-2025) was the author of many novels, including A Boy’s Own Story, The Beautiful Room Is Empty, The Farewell Symphony, A Saint from Texas, and The Humble Lover. His nonfiction included City Boy, Inside a Pearl, The Unpunished Vice, and other memoirs; The Flâneur, about Paris; and literary biographies and essays. He received the PEN/Saul Bellow Award for Achievement in American Fiction and the Medal for Distinguished Contribution to American Letters from the National Book Foundation. He lived in New York.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Gay's Reading.
I'm your host, Jason Blitman.
Today's episode is dedicated tothe memory of Edmund White who
passed away on Tuesday, June3rd, Just three weeks after I
had the honor of speaking withhim about his memoir, the Loves
of My Life.
Edmund White was nothing shortof a pioneer in gay literature,
a towering figure who helpedshape modern queer storytelling
(00:20):
and gave voice to a generationcoming into its own during the
most transformative decades ofLGBTQ plus history.
As one of the founding voices ofcontemporary gay literature,
Edmund documented the gayexperience with unprecedented
honesty and literary grace fromthe liberation movements of the
1970s through the devastatingAIDS crisis and beyond.
(00:42):
His semi autobiographicaltrilogy, beginning with a boy's
own story, broke new ground inits unflinching portrayal of gay
life.
While his nonfiction work,including the joy of gay sex
challenged societal taboos, andhelped countless readers
understand themselves.
He was a co-founder of the GayMen's Health Crisis in 1982,
demonstrating his commitment tocommunity beyond the written
(01:05):
word.
In our conversation, which wouldbe among his last public
interviews, Edmund got candid ashe reflected on his life, love,
sex, and his career.
Everyone has the kindest thingsto say about Edmund White and
his warmth, wit, and wisdomshine through, and it was my
privilege to talk to him.
(01:25):
In the show notes, you'll findtributes from those who knew
Edmund the best, including aparticularly moving piece in
Vulture by previous gay'sreading guest Christopher
Boland, who was close withEdmund.
This episode stands as both acelebration of Edmund's
extraordinary life, and atestament to the power of gay
literature to illuminate,inspire, and endure.
(01:47):
You can learn more about GA'sreading at GA's reading.com or
on Instagram at GA's reading.
There is no theme song today.
I am just honored to introducemy conversation with the one and
only Edmund White.
Jason Blitman (02:01):
well, Edmund White, welcome to Gays Reading,
although I feel like your booksare, I.
What gays have always beenreading.
Edmund White (02:09):
I thank you.
Jason Blitman (02:11):
we are here to talk about the loves of my life.
Your, aptly titled sex memoir.
I also have sitting next to me aboy's own story and of course,
the one and only, joy of Gay Sexbecause I need to make sure I'm
fully prepared.
Edmund White (02:28):
Right.
Jason Blitman (02:29):
maybe this is a, a silly question to start with,
but what does love mean to you?
Edmund White (02:35):
Well, uh, I guess it means something passionate
and tragic.
For me, I mean,
Jason Blitman (02:42):
Yeah.
Edmund White (02:43):
you know, where you just, uh, obsess over
somebody and cry a lot.
I mean, that's true though.
I also have what the French callesteem love in my life
Jason Blitman (02:56):
hmm.
Edmund White (02:57):
esteem somebody like my husband I've been with
for than 20 years.
And, uh, And we esteem eachother.
And I, I, I can't walk anymorebecause I've had, so, you know,
I've had two strokes and oneheart attack and he takes care
(03:19):
of me and
Jason Blitman (03:19):
Yeah.
Edmund White (03:20):
me.
And, uh, and you know, he'sreally very kind to me and takes
a lot up a lot of his time.
Jason Blitman (03:31):
And it, and it takes a lot of love for that.
I'm sure is.
Well, it's also, you know, youtalk about something that could
e even bring you to tears.
You have said you could fall inlove with a man sitting on the
other side of the subway.
That's love, love sort of camemeasly to you too.
What?
What's that kind of love foryou?
Edmund White (03:50):
No, that was in my twenties and uh, uh, you know, I
would be, uh, coming home from.
Work on the subway and I wouldlook at somebody the other side
of the car and I'd think, oh, Iwonder if I could marry him.
Uh, you know, I was alwaysavailable.
Jason Blitman (04:11):
Yeah, I had so many subway husbands that didn't
know that I existed.
Edmund White (04:16):
uh, there you go.
Jason Blitman (04:18):
I'm very familiar.
Um, you said when you wereyounger is when you would have
these, uh, love stories of thatwere fleeting on the subway.
How has this conception of loveevolved from then to now, sort
of for you emotionally?
I.
Edmund White (04:39):
Well, uh.
I am 85.
I, I, uh, take, uh, androgensbecause of my heart.
Jason Blitman (04:51):
Mm
Edmund White (04:51):
I have like zero sex drive
Jason Blitman (04:54):
mm.
Edmund White (04:55):
zero sex now.
Uh, although there I belong to,uh, silver daddies I meet lots
of interesting young men therewho would like to get together.
I think, why not?
But then I never go through withit.
'cause it, it is too annoying.
Jason Blitman (05:16):
Yeah, well, you're also probably a great
person for them to engage withbecause you don't really plan on
meeting up with them, but you'realso a very good writer.
Edmund White (05:29):
Oh, why would they care?
Why
Jason Blitman (05:31):
well, so they get a really good, sexual love
letter from you, but withouthaving to leave their home.
Edmund White (05:38):
oh, but I don't write letters
Jason Blitman (05:39):
No, it's just little, little quips here and
there on silver daddies.
Edmund White (05:43):
Maybe.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (05:44):
Okay.
Edmund White (05:44):
you know, just little messages.
Jason Blitman (05:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, well, you do have a way withwords, I guess is really what I
should say.
Whether you're writing loveletters or not, is uh, you
certainly have that experience.
Edmund White (05:55):
I think like all writers, I don't really like
writing other stuff
Jason Blitman (06:00):
Hmm.
Edmund White (06:01):
uh, uh, Isherwood was a good friend of mine the
end of his life, and he wouldsay, you know, I can talk to you
anytime of the day or night, butplease expect me to write you a
letter, because you know,writing is hard.
Huh?
Jason Blitman (06:17):
Yeah, yeah, of course.
It's like, uh, my, one of myroommates when I lived in New
York City was a chef, and Imean, he worked at some of the
fanciest restaurants in New YorkCity, and he would come home and
he would get Bodega sandwichesor Domino's Pizza, or he would,
you know, make himself a peanutbutter and jelly sandwich.
'cause the last thing he wantedto do when he'd get home was
(06:40):
cook.
Edmund White (06:41):
cookie.
Exactly.
Jason Blitman (06:42):
Yeah.
Edmund White (06:42):
some cooks who love to cook and even on the
weekends they do, but, uh,they're the minority.
Jason Blitman (06:50):
Yeah.
At some point in the book, youtalk about how you would often
try to work to get sex out ofthe relationship very quickly.
and so I get, I, I was so takenby this balance between sex and
love and, and what it's sort oflike, you know, chicken and egg,
what comes first?
What lasts, does love lastbecause of the sex?
(07:13):
Does, does love come because ofthe sex?
Has that been a single answerfor you?
Your whole life?
Have that I, as I can onlyimagine, based on reading this
book, you've had.
Thousands of sexual experiencesthat they haven't really been
the same.
Edmund White (07:29):
Uh, no.
I mean, uh, I, but you're quiteright that I, uh.
usually try to get sex out ofthe relationship, very quickly.
I don't know whether it's that Ilose interest
Jason Blitman (07:44):
Uh.
Edmund White (07:44):
or that because I'm so, so much from an
oppressant generation I, uh,feel guilty about having sex or
what.
I don't know.
Jason Blitman (07:56):
Oh, that's interesting.
Edmund White (07:57):
never been able to figure it out, but, uh.
I know when, when CharlesSilverstein and I wrote The Joy
of Gay Sex, uh, we sort ofdivided the gay world into
builders adventurers um, that,and I was always an adventurer
(08:20):
rather than nest builder.
Jason Blitman (08:22):
Uh.
Edmund White (08:22):
mean, I built plenty of nest, but, but not,
uh, with sex as a component.
Jason Blitman (08:29):
Yeah.
You were just talking about thejoy of gay sex.
you've, I mentioned having somany, uh, sex capades in your
time.
You have called yourself aliterary exhibitionist, but
you're not that way necessarilyin real life.
Edmund White (08:46):
Well, what I mean by that is that, uh.
a lot of times people who readme assume that I am all ready to
tell lots of body detailss andthat real life, and they're
confused because I'm, uh, of oldfashioned and, uh, standoffish
(09:06):
in a
Jason Blitman (09:06):
Yeah.
Edmund White (09:08):
I mean, just, I like to write about sex, but
don't really like to talk aboutthat much.
Jason Blitman (09:16):
That's really, I mean it's, it's interesting
because there is such a stigmaand such a connotation of
talking about sex in general,even writing about sex.
And so I think for me as thereader, it was so liberating to
just read about, uh, someone whoit seemed.
(09:37):
Didn't give a shit about whatthe world thinks of them or
knows about their, uh, deepprivate things and lives.
How did you get over the shameof even putting it on the page?
You said, okay, so, you know,maybe you don't love talking
about it.
Edmund White (09:51):
loved writing about it.
Uh, even when I was 14, I waswriting about gay sex, long
before anybody else was.
Jason Blitman (10:00):
Yeah.
Edmund White (10:00):
I wrote, uh, a novel called The Tower Window
when I was 14.
And, um, do you wanna say helloto my husband?
Jason Blitman (10:11):
Sure.
Edmund White (10:17):
Hello.
Jason Blitman (10:18):
Hello, husband.
Edmund White (10:20):
I see you handsome.
So, um, uh, always liked towrite about it, uh, I was always
a, truth teller.
Jason Blitman (10:33):
Mm.
Edmund White (10:34):
I mean, I think that's what novelists are.
Uh.
Uh, weirdly enough, I think thatwe the ones that tell the truth.
Jason Blitman (10:44):
Yeah,
Edmund White (10:45):
are the ones who lie.
Jason Blitman (10:47):
So you're, you're saying that even from a young
age, shame was never a part ofit for you?
It just came, it, it camenaturally to just put this on
the page?
Edmund White (10:56):
Uh, I had no shame as a writer,
Jason Blitman (10:59):
Yeah.
Edmund White (11:00):
as a person.
I did, uh, I mean, uh, Ioftentimes, uh, felt bad, you
know, like I'm 85, so who grewup in the you know, no one ever,
no one approved of gay sex inthose days.
Jason Blitman (11:21):
Yeah.
Edmund White (11:23):
It was
Jason Blitman (11:23):
Up.
Edmund White (11:24):
illness and I went to a psychiatrist trying to get
better.
Jason Blitman (11:27):
Right.
But, but putting yourself on thepage was a way of, of not sne,
not sneaking around, but it wasa, it, it's a, it's a safe
space.
The page.
Yeah.
Edmund White (11:41):
Also, it was a way of being innovative.
Yeah,
Jason Blitman (11:45):
hmm.
Edmund White (11:47):
containing the word novel is novel new and, and
you try to write about somethingnew, which in those days in the
fifties was very new.
Jason Blitman (11:59):
Yeah.
Uh, you write in this also thatthere is still a prudishness
about sex.
Why do you think that is?
Edmund White (12:09):
I think it came back, I mean,
Jason Blitman (12:11):
Oh, interesting.
I, hmm.
Edmund White (12:14):
And then it came back in the au Uh, I, I don't
know why.
I guess, um, I mean, I guesspartly because of aids,
Jason Blitman (12:26):
Sure.
Edmund White (12:27):
I mean, and, but I think also I think like, uh, the
internet.
Uh, fostered a lot of hypocrisypeople could cruise on the
internet without their loversknowing.
Jason Blitman (12:42):
Hmm.
Edmund White (12:43):
um, so they could, they could watch porno, they
could jerk off talking tosomebody, they could, um, have a
whole affair with somebody ormake rendezvous with other
people.
All online without, I mean,being tracked down
Jason Blitman (13:05):
Right.
Edmund White (13:05):
the, uh, jealous love.
So I think that, um, couldpretend to be prudish because
that was considered classy and,and, uh, and they, and they, uh.
They could actually be sluts,uh, be in real life.
Jason Blitman (13:27):
Yeah.
Edmund White (13:28):
because of the internet.
Jason Blitman (13:30):
Yeah.
And it's uh, harder for peopleto find out.
Edmund White (13:33):
Exactly.
I mean, like, you know, with,even with, uh, that your lover
could always phone you and catchyou in the middle of something.
Jason Blitman (13:42):
Mm.
Edmund White (13:43):
didn't you pick
Jason Blitman (13:44):
Mm-hmm.
Edmund White (13:45):
what were you doing?
Jason Blitman (13:47):
Yeah.
Edmund White (13:48):
you know, and I, I had, I had a very jealous lover
in the seventies before allthese things, before these
little telephones or anything.
um.
And as soon as I'd walk in thedoor, he'd say, well, it's 15
(14:09):
minutes from your house to mine.
You've taken 25 minutes.
What did you do with that extra10 minutes?
You know?
And, uh, you get
Jason Blitman (14:19):
You can get into a lot of trouble in 10 minutes.
Edmund White (14:22):
Right.
Jason Blitman (14:24):
Were you never the jealous type?
Edmund White (14:27):
Almost never
Jason Blitman (14:28):
Hmm.
Edmund White (14:29):
uh, mean, not sexually jealous, but if
somebody was actually in lovewith somebody else, I could be
jealous if I
Jason Blitman (14:41):
Hmm.
Edmund White (14:41):
love with them.
and of the weird things I did inmy life that I don't haven't
written about, I guess, is thatas the years would go by, I
would, I would manage to sleepwith my old lovers, lovers.
(15:02):
I mean, you know, that's one ofthe weird things about gay life
is
Jason Blitman (15:07):
Yeah.
Edmund White (15:08):
is that like a sex bar written by a, a Frenchman in
the 19th century was all aboutmen and women, and the men
hiding under the bed while thehusband comes in.
But in gay life, everybody's,uh, a target or available.
I mean, they, they're endlesspossibilities.
Jason Blitman (15:29):
Yeah.
And the, the pool is smaller,
Edmund White (15:32):
Yeah, there are fewer, fewer gays, but
Jason Blitman (15:35):
right?
Edmund White (15:35):
uh, but every man who is gay, can be a
participant.
Jason Blitman (15:41):
Right, right.
Exactly.
Oh, that's so funny.
How interesting.
Yeah, I, I, I think I'm so stuckon shame and love and sex and,
uh.
You're writing about it simplybecause, you know, I think the
prudishness of it all comes fromshame and I'm, I wonder what
(16:03):
would happen if my generationand younger started to just
write about the things thatscared us or the things that we
felt shame about.
Would putting it down on paper,uh, set it free?
I wonder.
Edmund White (16:18):
I always feel that Gates have a rare opportunity.
they did before everybody gotmarried and had children.
uh, uh, that, that, I think thatin the past, gays had the rare
opportunity, uh, to be honest,because straight people say, oh,
I can't write about that.
What would my wife think?
Jason Blitman (16:38):
Um.
Edmund White (16:38):
neighbors think?
What would the PTA think?
All that?
What were the children think?
uh, G didn't have that problemuntil now.
Jason Blitman (16:47):
Yeah.
I mean, well meanwhile myhusband would be like, write
another one.
That one was good.
Tell tell me more.
Edmund White (16:56):
Oh, that's nice.
He's a,
Jason Blitman (16:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
He is a good sport.
We're all good sport, you know,we, it's, life is too short.
We try to be, uh, as open mindedas we can be.
Edmund White (17:07):
What?
You try to, if you lovesomebody, you want him to be
happy, and if he'll be happywith to bed with Bobby, why not?
Jason Blitman (17:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sure.
Um, you
Edmund White (17:19):
as he doesn't do it too often,
Jason Blitman (17:23):
what's too often to you,
Edmund White (17:25):
twice.
Jason Blitman (17:31):
you talk about how an essential part of memory.
Rehearsal.
The more you revisit memory, thelonger it sticks.
You said you're 85 years old.
You were talking in this bookabout experiences that were
happening when you were ateenager and beyond.
How have you sort of kept thesememories alive for you?
Edmund White (17:56):
I, I think a lot of'em through masturbation
fantasies, in other words.
Yeah.
I mean, because I think thewhole world.
Can be divided in the four thatthere are people who like visual
pornography and people who likewritten pornography.
And there are people who like tobe totally creative in their
(18:17):
pornography and make up newimaginary scenes or those who
like to replay old scenes.
And I'm one, I'm more, I'm morelike literary than visual.
And, and I
Jason Blitman (18:31):
Mm.
Edmund White (18:32):
to, Rewind, old memories,
Jason Blitman (18:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Edmund White (18:39):
that gets me off if I think, oh, that time that I
had those two men.
Jason Blitman (18:46):
So it almost sounds like the sex memoir is
probably, uh.
Better, quote, unquote,rehearsed than other aspects of
your life.
If you were say, writing about afamily member, right?
You're not necessarily replayingthe memories of your cousin over
and over again in your mind, butthese, these are getting
(19:06):
replayed over and over again.
Edmund White (19:08):
There you go.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (19:10):
Thinking about, you know, you spent time around
the world.
Uh, has, do you feel like loveand sex and joy of all of the
behavior was different in theStates versus Paris?
Edmund White (19:27):
Oh yeah, I do.
I mean, like in Paris, uh,attractive boys are kept.
Jason Blitman (19:36):
Hmm.
Edmund White (19:36):
If they're poor, I mean, they find somebody rich
and who's older takes, who keepsthem in, in style.
uh, but in America people don'tlike that.
They want to be independent.
They, they don't want some rich,older men taking care of them.
Jason Blitman (19:55):
Hm.
Edmund White (19:55):
They want to be themselves um, and, and have, or
at least be independent.
So that's a big difference.
Other differences are that, uh,the French, uh, really like
perverted sex.
And, and so in a, in a personalad, you'll say, I am perverse
(20:20):
looking for the same.
I am a
Jason Blitman (20:23):
Hmm.
Edmund White (20:24):
And, uh, but.
Americans tend to avoid that,although they might do it in
real life, but they, they meet,but they won't advertise it.
Jason Blitman (20:35):
Hmm.
Edmund White (20:35):
Uh, but the French are very frank about that.
I think in general, the Frenchare realistic everything and
certainly about sex.
I mean.
But you know, like a, a Frenchperson will say to you, oh, my
grandmother's lover, blah, blah.
almost no Americans can say mygrandmother's lover.
(20:58):
You know, we just, we put oldpeople on the back shelf and
about them, and they, they takethem, they take themselves out
of the running.
Jason Blitman (21:08):
Hmm.
Edmund White (21:09):
but I can't tell you how many French friends of
mine had grandparents who hadlovers.
Jason Blitman (21:17):
Well you, I mean, you just said how many old
people take their themselves outof the running.
Meanwhile, you just publishedyour sex memoir in 85.
Good for you.
Good for you for not takingyourself out of the running.
Edmund White (21:31):
Well, I'm a little bit French, I think I lived
there 16 years and I like tothink at least, and not right
now, I'm writing a book aboutthe Fourteenth's gay brother.
Jason Blitman (21:44):
Uh, yes.
I've heard you talk about thison some other people's podcasts,
and at the time you said youhadn't even written anything
yet.
You were just in the researchstage.
Has that changed?
Edmund White (21:54):
I've written about 50 pages now.
Jason Blitman (21:56):
Oh, wow.
Exciting.
Okay.
Um, you said you think you're alittle bit French, uh, and I was
gonna make a very crude jokeabout how after 16 years you
might still have a little bit ofFrench inside of you.
Edmund White (22:10):
Oh, well, yeah, probably.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (22:16):
You know, talking about this, this new book that
you're working on, as I said,I've heard you speak on other
podcasts, you've spoken a lotabout how you've written.
Multiple, you have multiplenovels that are finished
already, uh, waiting to bepublished.
and you said to somebody elsethat the assumption is that
because you're such a prolificwriter and you can't seem to
(22:38):
stop, which I think we're allgrateful for, that it's
inevitable that some will bepublished posthumously.
Is there, is there anythingyou'd wanna say to that as a, as
a concept or to, to.
The future of readers
Edmund White (22:55):
Oh, well maybe they'll earn some money for my
husband who, 25 years youngerthan I am, and, uh, you know,
uh, I don't know.
Uh,
Jason Blitman (23:07):
buy the book so Michael can make some money.
Edmund White (23:09):
yeah, exactly.
Jason Blitman (23:11):
Right.
That's, that's your, yourposthumous message to the one,
to the world.
Edmund White (23:16):
right.
Right.
Jason Blitman (23:17):
That's totally fair.
The book spanned so much timeand you have really everything
from the joy of gay sex, to justhaving so much sex.
You talk about.
in writing porn, one needs tosort of know the slang of the
moment.
are there things that havesurprised you about how sex has
(23:38):
evolved or how sexual behaviorhas evolved or in the course of
your lifetime?
Just
Edmund White (23:45):
have you heard of people called Demi Sexuals?
Jason Blitman (23:49):
uhhuh.
Edmund White (23:50):
I mean, I think that's unusual.
But I mean,
Jason Blitman (23:52):
Oh sure.
Edmund White (23:54):
fun thing, the fun thing about that is somebody who
doesn't wanna have sex unlessthey're in love with somebody,
that's the way it used to alwaysbe for everybody.
Jason Blitman (24:04):
Yeah.
Edmund White (24:04):
mean, that was the Victorian ideal.
the idea that has become aperversion in our day is so
strange
Jason Blitman (24:13):
Hmm.
Edmund White (24:14):
You know, people have to feel something before
they wanna have sex.
that must mean they're, theyneed therapy.
I think that's what crazy.
Jason Blitman (24:25):
Well, it's, and yet the book is called The Loves
of My Life.
It's not called The Sexcapadesof My Life.
I.
Edmund White (24:34):
Yeah.
Right, right.
Uh, it sounds better.
Jason Blitman (24:41):
So you're saying that, that maybe it's actually
the sex Capades of your life,but the loves of my life sells
better.
Edmund White (24:47):
Well, I, I, I think you, you know, I wrote the
biography of the Jeanine
Jason Blitman (24:52):
Yeah.
Edmund White (24:53):
he once said, uh, I never experienced in a pure
state, by which he meant healways fell a little bit in love
with every partner.
And, and to him, a pure state ofsex would, be devoid of emotion.
It would just be mechanical or,or, you know, physical.
Jason Blitman (25:15):
Yeah.
Edmund White (25:16):
uh, and I, I, I'm the same way.
I mean, I, at the baths, I usedto fall in love with a little
bit with each partner.
Jason Blitman (25:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, like we said at thebeginning of the conversation,
even just making eyes withsomeone across the subway, you
know, there's something thatdraws you to them.
so you talk about, you know,demisexual being something that
feels very new and different toyou.
What about over the course of,of your sex life for yourself?
Were there things that were newthat surprised you?
Edmund White (25:49):
I was, I kind of discovered that for, for a long
time, about 15 years, I was intos and m.
Uh, of course first as an S andthen an m
Jason Blitman (26:04):
Hmm.
Edmund White (26:04):
and um, uh, although usually it's the
reverse.
I mean, people, people have tolearn how to be, uh, sadistic by
being slaves first.
Jason Blitman (26:18):
Hmm.
Edmund White (26:18):
and then they get to be, I started off just
because I had a.
A trick who was so irritated,don't touch my hair, don't do
this.
Dude.
finally slapped him then he cameand I, I thought, wow, that's
exciting.
And, uh, because he was soannoying.
(26:41):
I mean, that and that, uh, thatgot me going.
Jason Blitman (26:46):
Yeah.
Edmund White (26:46):
But I mean that whole.
Uh, experience of s and m camewas like a huge cresting wave,
and then
Jason Blitman (26:57):
Hmm.
Edmund White (26:57):
it dred away.
I, I, I lost interest in itfinally, but I had liked it for
years and years.
Jason Blitman (27:05):
Well, I think it's amazing to hear you talk
about that because, I don't knowif it's just my generation or
people in general who sort of,uh.
I, I feel like I witness peoplewho get sort of stuck in their
ways or in their behavior andthey feel like they're not
allowed to change and evolve.
And my husband and I have beentogether 11 years now and just,
(27:26):
we are, we appreciate beingopen-minded of just like what
life can bring to you, whether,who knows, whatever that means,
whether it's sexual or not.
we're not gonna be the samepeople tomorrow as we were
yesterday because it's.
Edmund White (27:41):
very fortunate.
That means you'll have a longterm relationship.
You'll have a long relationshipbecause you're evolving
together.
Uh, but most people get so stuckand they, but they become so
boring.
Like, yes.
I, I was thinking of somethingoutrageous that would get me in
lots of trouble if I said it.
(28:01):
So now I'm gonna get in lots oftrouble.
I, I was thinking about all,these boys who complained that
village priest to crafted them.
I was thinking, well, at leastthat means they have one
interesting thing to talk aboutduring their long, boring
Midwestern lives.
Jason Blitman (28:23):
Oh my God.
Edmond
Edmund White (28:26):
I know, I, I, I should be compassionate because
sister, four years older than Iam, has battled Ancest her whole
life.
Jason Blitman (28:40):
Mm.
Edmund White (28:40):
now she's still on the couch.
Trying to deal with the, becauseour father raped her when she
was 13
Jason Blitman (28:48):
Yeah.
Edmund White (28:48):
she became pregnant and then she had a
miscarriage she's never gottenover that.
Jason Blitman (28:53):
Mm.
Edmund White (28:54):
And uh, and Michael also had some sexual
experiences when he was just sixwith his hunky older, uh, cousin
Jason Blitman (29:05):
Mm
Edmund White (29:06):
and who was like 18 and then my best friend, his
mother seduced him over and overagain when he
Jason Blitman (29:14):
mm.
Edmund White (29:15):
and he, he's quite screwed up and, a, um, ketamine
addict.
Jason Blitman (29:22):
Hmm.
Edmund White (29:23):
you know, I mean, I don't know.
I, so I, I, I do see that incestcan be really serious.
But I, I, I just wish would talkabout it in a more frivolous
way.
Jason Blitman (29:37):
Mm.
Well, you know, you also saidyou should have more compassion
because, and I don't know thatyou.
for all intents and purposes,joking about the neighborhood
priest means that you don't havecompassion.
I think it means that you'rebringing levity to something
that is very difficult, I think,to talk about.
Edmund White (30:00):
I never thought, oh, this will make a good story.
But, uh, you know, I, uh.
And then sometimes you onlyrealize, like, only in writing
this book did I realize had beenraped twice,
Jason Blitman (30:16):
Mm.
Edmund White (30:17):
both times by very distinguished Englishmen who got
me drunk and, uh, raped me.
I mean that, but it, I don'tthink it's such a big deal for,
for an adult man.
be raped.
Jason Blitman (30:37):
You talking about.
All of these experiences thatyou had.
I mean, thank you for sharingall of that.
I, I, you know, I, while Iappreciate that you can be
nonchalant about it, thatdoesn't mean that it hasn't had
some semblance of effect on youthroughout your life.
Um, quite a prolific sex lifeyou've had.
(30:58):
and just in general life ingeneral.
You've lived through many,different versions of the gay
community., If you were to havea conversation with your younger
self about, about love, aboutthe future, about sex, is there
something that comes to mindthat you'd want to share with
the younger version of Edmond?
Edmund White (31:20):
Well, I would say, don't assume that you know
anything about.
Gay life after just one or twoyears of experience in your
particular decade?
I mean that, uh, the, the the14th brother I'm writing about,
and all of his companions, theyall had wives, they all had
(31:44):
children, they all had loversthat they were made in love with
and they all had mistresseswomen.
Jason Blitman (31:53):
Yeah.
Edmund White (31:53):
Other women too.
So, I mean, it, it doesn't makesense if you think well, about
gay life now, where everybody'sso compartmentalized
Jason Blitman (32:04):
Hmm.
Edmund White (32:04):
and um, and, and bisexuality is just seen as
being in the closet.
Jason Blitman (32:13):
Hmm.
Edmund White (32:13):
You know, I mean, people really are so unfair to
bisexual and, um.
I don't know.
I, I mean, I, if I had to talkto my younger self, I would say
that, I would say, uh, look toyour friends for love not to
(32:34):
lovers
Jason Blitman (32:35):
Hmm.
Edmund White (32:35):
love, uh, and, cultivate your friends and never
betray them
Jason Blitman (32:40):
Hmm.
Edmund White (32:41):
uh, and never put them on the back burner when you
get a new love or the way mostpeople do.
I think that's a terrible thingthat.
That would be advice and, andthe, and the whole thing about,
don't assume that Life is onebig uniform thing.
Jason Blitman (32:58):
Yeah.
that's really beautiful and,important I think for me to, to
think about as well.
If I were to ask the samequestion about, about.
Talking to the queer communityat large or a young queer person
today, would you say the samething or might you say something
different to a stranger?
Edmund White (33:17):
well, if they ask the same question, I guess I
would
Jason Blitman (33:20):
Well, right.
I guess if a, if a young gayperson said to you, Hey, you're
an an elder gay, what would yousay to me?
It, it, I, it would be some,some version of that.
Edmund White (33:30):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (33:31):
Yeah.
Edmund White (33:31):
flexible in your thinking if, if not your
behavior.
I mean, I don't think.
Not everybody can be, beflexible in their behavior, but,
but they should, uh, be flexiblein their understanding.
Jason Blitman (33:47):
Yeah.
Edmund White (33:47):
and I think that not everyone, but I think
everyone can be, can take theirfriends very seriously and
realize that a family of friendsis really.
Important.
Jason Blitman (34:02):
Yeah.
Edmund White (34:02):
third thing is that beware of religion.
It's the biggest enemy in all ofits forms of gay life,
Jason Blitman (34:10):
Hmm.
Edmund White (34:11):
Muslim Islam or Christianity or Judaism.
They all hate fags
Jason Blitman (34:18):
Hmm.
Edmund White (34:18):
they all, they're all poison.
And, uh, and I, I know thatpeople say, oh, well we belong
to the wonderful gay church witha wonderful gay pastor.
But come on, that's very rare.
And, and if you think of all theyoung people, I have so many
(34:39):
friends who are.
Who are Mormons who've committedsuicide,
Jason Blitman (34:44):
Hmm.
Edmund White (34:45):
who, you know, the Mormons are told that they,
they, they're exiled from theirfamily forever if they're gay.
And, uh, you know, I mean,that's the same religion that
accepted black people about 30years ago.
Jason Blitman (35:02):
Hmm.
Edmund White (35:03):
'cause they were all children of ham.
And, uh, you know,
Jason Blitman (35:08):
Right.
Edmund White (35:09):
But religion is really hateful and everybody
should fight it.
Jason Blitman (35:13):
I have such complicated, feelings about
organized religion in general.
Um, I wasn't, no, I was broughtup somewhat Jewish.
Um, I just find.
Uh, none of it is, it's allridiculous to me.
Yeah.
Joyce Carol Oates, your former,uh, office mate is quoted as
(35:35):
saying that you are, you'refamous for your generosity and
your kindness.
Where does that come from?
Edmund White (35:44):
Maybe, maybe my mother who was, she had those
qualities.
She
Jason Blitman (35:50):
Mm.
Edmund White (35:50):
her whole life as, um.
Uh, uh, with brain damagedchildren.
I think they're more up to dateterms for, they're mentally
challenged now.
But anyway, uh, she worked in afree clinic, at at, at Cook
County Hospital in Chicago, shedevoted her whole life.
(36:14):
Uh, six in the morning tilleight in the evening.
To her patients.
And, uh, was a psychologist, butshe was director of a medical
clinic and she was quitereligious in, in a kind of
crazy, way.
I mean, she was a Christianscientist,
Jason Blitman (36:37):
Hmm.
Edmund White (36:37):
didn't, uh, ignore medicine.
Jason Blitman (36:41):
How lovely that that's where, where you think
you got those pieces of youfrom, I, in doing my research.
On you for this episode.
Uh, my husband turned to me andhe was like, why are you
smirking?
And I said, I'm prepping forthis guest.
I'm just so charmed by him.
To, to which he said, he'sfucked a million people.
(37:03):
He's gotta be charming.
I was like, Hey, you're notwrong.
Edmund White (37:10):
I never thought of that, but that's a good, good
observation.
Jason Blitman (37:17):
After all these years, you think that's what it
was?
Your charm, your delightfulpersonality,
Edmund White (37:23):
Well, I think that works better on women than men.
I think that, um, had a taxidriver in Paris once, and I was
just for novelistic reasons, Iwas asking him, uh, how much of
a, of a, a high class prostituteCause
Jason Blitman (37:42):
Mm
Edmund White (37:42):
you know, I was asking all that.
uh.
He said, well, I wouldn't knowand you wouldn't have any
trouble with your charminglittle accent in French.
And, um, but anyway, he said, ifyou, if you can make a woman
laugh, nine times out of 10, youcan seduce her.
Jason Blitman (38:02):
mm and you do not feel that was the case for men.
Edmund White (38:05):
I don't think they care.
Jason Blitman (38:07):
Did you not care, uh, whether or not a man was
charming?
Edmund White (38:14):
I, guess not.
I mean, you know, uh, they sayhe could charm the pants off
somebody,
Jason Blitman (38:26):
Uh,
Edmund White (38:26):
not sure that's true.
Jason Blitman (38:32):
sometimes I feel like that's all I have going for
me, so I hope that it is true.
I hope people.
Like the charm.
Edmund White (38:38):
Well, you also handsome,
Jason Blitman (38:40):
well, thank you.
I was not fishing, I just, I,uh, I tend to lean into the
charm.
you are so prolific.
This episode is coming outduring June, during Pride, happy
pride.
Um, uh, what does it mean toyou?
(39:01):
To be at this stage in yourlife, in your career, to be one
of the sort of founding fathersof gay literature, what does
that mean to you?
That's such a, I just thought ofthat.
Turned a phrase.
How crazy.
You're a founding father of gayliterature, Edmund White.
It.
Edmund White (39:22):
Well.
I mean, I think of, of issuewith, as having been the real
one.
Uh, he, I worship of him and,uh, I think of myself as a
disciple of him.
Uh, but of course other greatgays like Jeane, Ian, all, all
(39:43):
those people are foundingfathers
Jason Blitman (39:46):
Yeah.
Oh, I, I didn't say one.
There's plural, there are some,you know, uh, handfuls, but
certainly.
You know, of contemporaryculture, you really straddle a
line between, you know, pre andpost aids, pre and post.
I mean, not post aids, AIDS isnot, has not gone anywhere, but
(40:07):
just straddling the line ofdifferent periods of gay life
of, of contemporary world.
So if I am putting you on thatpedestal, what does that mean to
you?
Edmund White (40:20):
Um, well, I hope it means that my next book will
get published.
I'm not
Jason Blitman (40:30):
Yes.
Why is that?
Edmund White (40:33):
my editor is so possy.
Uh, you know,
Jason Blitman (40:41):
Who do we have to write to?
I'm gonna write a letter, anangry letter.
Edmund White (40:45):
Okay, good.
No, I mean, uh,
Jason Blitman (40:49):
I hope that it means you get published too.
How could you know, it's funnyyou say this because at some
point you talk about havingwritten four books prior to your
first one getting published.
Have those four books ever seenthe light of day?
Edmund White (41:03):
received letter?
No, but one of them could.
I think I, I, I, I say in mywill, uh,
Jason Blitman (41:11):
I.
Edmund White (41:11):
uh, I authorized Michael to publish one of them,
which I think is kind of good.
But, uh, the other three, no.
Jason Blitman (41:20):
Okay, well now you have everybody curious.
That's okay.
You should have like a burningceremony where they just, you
Edmund White (41:29):
right,
Jason Blitman (41:30):
get, get rid of them.
Um.
Oh God, no.
Not that kind of burningceremony.
No, no, no.
Edmund White (41:40):
books,
Jason Blitman (41:41):
I know, I guess, I guess technically that would
be burning books.
No, we don't want that.
Sending it off into the world sothat it's, it just goes on and,
and isn't something that can bepublished anymore.
Well, I hope we see, uh, all ofthe Edmund White books that you
want out in the world.
That's what I think isimportant.
Edmund White (42:01):
Yeah.
I've put in one called, uh, theSpirit Lamp, which my editor is
harassing me about right now.
And uh, and then I have anotherone called Hospitality.
Which is kind of crazy and allover the place, but it, think
(42:23):
it, it has some very amusingwriting in it.
Jason Blitman (42:27):
Yeah.
Edmund White (42:27):
And then the one I'm doing now called Missier,
'cause the King's brother wasalways called Missier.
that was his official title
Jason Blitman (42:39):
Fabulous.
Edmund White (42:40):
every generation and um, and I, I find him an
amazing, interesting character.
And, um, so I hope I lived it.
Finish from Messe.
Jason Blitman (42:53):
Yeah.
Are you a fast writer?
Edmund White (42:56):
Well, this one I'm writing by hand.
Jason Blitman (42:59):
Oh
Edmund White (43:00):
I, I used to write by hand and then I went to the
computer and then, then I got sointimidated by writing on the
computer that I've gone back tohand.
Jason Blitman (43:11):
yeah.
Edmund White (43:12):
Also it means like late at night, I can still keep
scribbling
Jason Blitman (43:16):
Mm.
Edmund White (43:16):
because my computer's in the wrong room.
Jason Blitman (43:19):
Right, right.
Of course.
Edmund White (43:20):
And, uh, so if I write by hand I can just keep on
going.
And, um, but, uh, I have thischarming young friend who types
a hundred words a minute, andwho's gonna come in and let me
dictate?
That, that book to him, uh, justso I can get an advance for it.
Jason Blitman (43:46):
Yes.
Amen.
He is gonna put the dick anddictate.
Edmund White (43:50):
Yeah, right.
There you go.
Jason Blitman (43:54):
Oh my God.
Edmund White (43:55):
do you, what do you write?
Jason Blitman (43:56):
You know, it's funny that you asked that.
I am not really a writer though.
Anne Patchett told me that youare whatever you tell yourself.
And so if I tell myself I'm nota writer, then I will never be.
but I do, I've had a few ideasfor a story and there's one that
won't go away for years now.
So I'm gonna, I think, lean intothat a little bit.
Edmund White (44:18):
She's very nice, isn't she?
Jason Blitman (44:19):
She is a delight.
Edmund White (44:21):
Yeah.
No, she's wonderful
Jason Blitman (44:23):
Yeah.
Edmund White (44:24):
and, uh, I love her writing and.
and her, uh, her novel about,um, hermaphrodite was really
good.
Jason Blitman (44:36):
Mm.
Yeah.
She, uh, she talks about how shedoesn't let anyone see a single
piece of the book that she'swriting until she's done so.
Edmund White (44:48):
I am the opposite.
I, I.
I, I, I have to be praised by mypoor husband every day or I
can't keep going.
I'm easily discouraged.
Jason Blitman (45:01):
No.
Well listen you so many books.
You clearly doing somethingright
Edmund White (45:07):
Well, he lives,
Jason Blitman (45:08):
or he is who, however, it's working.
It's working.
That's all right.
Edmund White (45:13):
Thank you.
Jason Blitman (45:14):
I Edmund White.
It is such a pleasure to haveyou here on gay's reading Happy
Pride there.
There's.
Edmund White (45:21):
pride to you.
Jason Blitman (45:22):
you.
I feel like there's no one elseI'd rather be celebrating pride
with than, uh, one of the, oneof the many founding fathers of
gay literature.
Um, you know, I think we allhave those, our, our own
forefathers.
But I am a, I'm a late in lifereader and so the loves of my
life was actually my first, myintroduction to Edmund White.
(45:43):
And I know, and so I heard youtalking to somebody else about
how you wish more people wouldtalk to you about your novels.
So that's why I immediately wentout to get this.
'cause I have to read a boy'sown story.
I, I'm about 20 pages in.
I can't wait to devour all ofthe things.
You're gonna keep me very busy.
Edmund White (46:03):
Oh yeah.
have, my college lover isreading my entire works, I
think.
He's the only person in theworld, uh, done except me maybe,
but, uh, uh, but he, he'senjoying it.
He says,
Jason Blitman (46:21):
I love that you're still in touch with him.
Edmund White (46:23):
Yes, yes.
We're best friends.
We see each other every Thursdayafter his shrink appointment.
Jason Blitman (46:30):
I love that.
Shout out to him.
We love it.
Do you, you see each other everyThursday?
Do you do something specific?
Do you.
Edmund White (46:37):
Oh, he brings lunch.
Jason Blitman (46:38):
Oh, so just a little lunchtime.
Edmund White (46:40):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (46:40):
I love that.
Edmund White (46:42):
he, he's a, a famous beauty, uh, I mean, you
know, like when we livedtogether, cars would screech to
a halt and people would jumpoutta their cars and say, would
you like to go with me to Egyptor whatever.
I, I mean, he was that kind ofbeautiful and
Jason Blitman (47:02):
And he would say no.
And you would turn to the personand say, I'll go.
Edmund White (47:06):
No, but he, uh, he um, he, he looked like, he looks
like Billy Paul Newman lookedwhen he was young.
He is that handsome.
Jason Blitman (47:15):
Oh, wow.
Uh, we love, we love time.
Time is a, is a, is a nasty,terrible friend.
Um, Edmund, I feel like I could,I could talk to you all day.
I could, I could sit in here,listen to all of your stories
all day.
thank you so much for beinghere.
Edmund White (47:32):
Thank you so much, Yeah.
Welcome to Gay's Reading.
I'm your host, Jason Blitman.
Today's episode is dedicated tothe memory of Edmund White who
passed away on Tuesday, June3rd, Just three weeks after I
had the honor of speaking withhim about his memoir, the Loves
of My Life.
Edmund White was nothing shortof a pioneer in gay literature,
a towering figure who helpedshape modern queer storytelling
(00:20):
and gave voice to a generationcoming into its own during the
most transformative decades ofLGBTQ plus history.
As one of the founding voices ofcontemporary gay literature,
Edmund documented the gayexperience with unprecedented
honesty and literary grace fromthe liberation movements of the
1970s through the devastatingAIDS crisis and beyond.
(00:42):
His semi autobiographicaltrilogy, beginning with a boy's
own story, broke new ground inits unflinching portrayal of gay
life.
While his nonfiction work,including the joy of gay sex
challenged societal taboos, andhelped countless readers
understand themselves.
He was a co-founder of the GayMen's Health Crisis in 1982,
demonstrating his commitment tocommunity beyond the written
(01:05):
word.
In our conversation, which wouldbe among his last public
interviews, Edmund got candid ashe reflected on his life, love,
sex, and his career.
Everyone has the kindest thingsto say about Edmund White and
his warmth, wit, and wisdomshine through, and it was my
privilege to talk to him.
(01:25):
In the show notes, you'll findtributes from those who knew
Edmund the best, including aparticularly moving piece in
Vulture by previous gay'sreading guest Christopher
Boland, who was close withEdmund.
This episode stands as both acelebration of Edmund's
extraordinary life, and atestament to the power of gay
literature to illuminate,inspire, and endure.
(01:47):
You can learn more about GA'sreading at GA's reading.com or
on Instagram at GA's reading.
There is no theme song today.
I am just honored to introducemy conversation with the one and
only Edmund White.
Jason Blitman (02:01):
well, Edmund White, welcome to Gays Reading,
although I feel like your booksare, I.
What gays have always beenreading.
Edmund White (02:09):
I thank you.
Jason Blitman (02:11):
we are here to talk about the loves of my life.
Your, aptly titled sex memoir.
I also have sitting next to me aboy's own story and of course,
the one and only, joy of Gay Sexbecause I need to make sure I'm
fully prepared.
Edmund White (02:28):
Right.
Jason Blitman (02:29):
maybe this is a, a silly question to start with,
but what does love mean to you?
Edmund White (02:35):
Well, uh, I guess it means something passionate
and tragic.
For me, I mean,
Jason Blitman (02:42):
Yeah.
Edmund White (02:43):
you know, where you just, uh, obsess over
somebody and cry a lot.
I mean, that's true though.
I also have what the French callesteem love in my life
Jason Blitman (02:56):
hmm.
Edmund White (02:57):
esteem somebody like my husband I've been with
for than 20 years.
And, uh, And we esteem eachother.
And I, I, I can't walk anymorebecause I've had, so, you know,
I've had two strokes and oneheart attack and he takes care
(03:19):
of me and
Jason Blitman (03:19):
Yeah.
Edmund White (03:20):
me.
And, uh, and you know, he'sreally very kind to me and takes
a lot up a lot of his time.
Jason Blitman (03:31):
And it, and it takes a lot of love for that.
I'm sure is.
Well, it's also, you know, youtalk about something that could
e even bring you to tears.
You have said you could fall inlove with a man sitting on the
other side of the subway.
That's love, love sort of camemeasly to you too.
What?
What's that kind of love foryou?
Edmund White (03:50):
No, that was in my twenties and uh, uh, you know, I
would be, uh, coming home from.
Work on the subway and I wouldlook at somebody the other side
of the car and I'd think, oh, Iwonder if I could marry him.
Uh, you know, I was alwaysavailable.
Jason Blitman (04:11):
Yeah, I had so many subway husbands that didn't
know that I existed.
Edmund White (04:16):
uh, there you go.
Jason Blitman (04:18):
I'm very familiar.
Um, you said when you wereyounger is when you would have
these, uh, love stories of thatwere fleeting on the subway.
How has this conception of loveevolved from then to now, sort
of for you emotionally?
I.
Edmund White (04:39):
Well, uh.
I am 85.
I, I, uh, take, uh, androgensbecause of my heart.
Jason Blitman (04:51):
Mm
Edmund White (04:51):
I have like zero sex drive
Jason Blitman (04:54):
mm.
Edmund White (04:55):
zero sex now.
Uh, although there I belong to,uh, silver daddies I meet lots
of interesting young men therewho would like to get together.
I think, why not?
But then I never go through withit.
'cause it, it is too annoying.
Jason Blitman (05:16):
Yeah, well, you're also probably a great
person for them to engage withbecause you don't really plan on
meeting up with them, but you'realso a very good writer.
Edmund White (05:29):
Oh, why would they care?
Why
Jason Blitman (05:31):
well, so they get a really good, sexual love
letter from you, but withouthaving to leave their home.
Edmund White (05:38):
oh, but I don't write letters
Jason Blitman (05:39):
No, it's just little, little quips here and
there on silver daddies.
Edmund White (05:43):
Maybe.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (05:44):
Okay.
Edmund White (05:44):
you know, just little messages.
Jason Blitman (05:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, well, you do have a way withwords, I guess is really what I
should say.
Whether you're writing loveletters or not, is uh, you
certainly have that experience.
Edmund White (05:55):
I think like all writers, I don't really like
writing other stuff
Jason Blitman (06:00):
Hmm.
Edmund White (06:01):
uh, uh, Isherwood was a good friend of mine the
end of his life, and he wouldsay, you know, I can talk to you
anytime of the day or night, butplease expect me to write you a
letter, because you know,writing is hard.
Huh?
Jason Blitman (06:17):
Yeah, yeah, of course.
It's like, uh, my, one of myroommates when I lived in New
York City was a chef, and Imean, he worked at some of the
fanciest restaurants in New YorkCity, and he would come home and
he would get Bodega sandwichesor Domino's Pizza, or he would,
you know, make himself a peanutbutter and jelly sandwich.
'cause the last thing he wantedto do when he'd get home was
(06:40):
cook.
Edmund White (06:41):
cookie.
Exactly.
Jason Blitman (06:42):
Yeah.
Edmund White (06:42):
some cooks who love to cook and even on the
weekends they do, but, uh,they're the minority.
Jason Blitman (06:50):
Yeah.
At some point in the book, youtalk about how you would often
try to work to get sex out ofthe relationship very quickly.
and so I get, I, I was so takenby this balance between sex and
love and, and what it's sort oflike, you know, chicken and egg,
what comes first?
What lasts, does love lastbecause of the sex?
(07:13):
Does, does love come because ofthe sex?
Has that been a single answerfor you?
Your whole life?
Have that I, as I can onlyimagine, based on reading this
book, you've had.
Thousands of sexual experiencesthat they haven't really been
the same.
Edmund White (07:29):
Uh, no.
I mean, uh, I, but you're quiteright that I, uh.
usually try to get sex out ofthe relationship, very quickly.
I don't know whether it's that Ilose interest
Jason Blitman (07:44):
Uh.
Edmund White (07:44):
or that because I'm so, so much from an
oppressant generation I, uh,feel guilty about having sex or
what.
I don't know.
Jason Blitman (07:56):
Oh, that's interesting.
Edmund White (07:57):
never been able to figure it out, but, uh.
I know when, when CharlesSilverstein and I wrote The Joy
of Gay Sex, uh, we sort ofdivided the gay world into
builders adventurers um, that,and I was always an adventurer
(08:20):
rather than nest builder.
Jason Blitman (08:22):
Uh.
Edmund White (08:22):
mean, I built plenty of nest, but, but not,
uh, with sex as a component.
Jason Blitman (08:29):
Yeah.
You were just talking about thejoy of gay sex.
you've, I mentioned having somany, uh, sex capades in your
time.
You have called yourself aliterary exhibitionist, but
you're not that way necessarilyin real life.
Edmund White (08:46):
Well, what I mean by that is that, uh.
a lot of times people who readme assume that I am all ready to
tell lots of body detailss andthat real life, and they're
confused because I'm, uh, of oldfashioned and, uh, standoffish
(09:06):
in a
Jason Blitman (09:06):
Yeah.
Edmund White (09:08):
I mean, just, I like to write about sex, but
don't really like to talk aboutthat much.
Jason Blitman (09:16):
That's really, I mean it's, it's interesting
because there is such a stigmaand such a connotation of
talking about sex in general,even writing about sex.
And so I think for me as thereader, it was so liberating to
just read about, uh, someone whoit seemed.
(09:37):
Didn't give a shit about whatthe world thinks of them or
knows about their, uh, deepprivate things and lives.
How did you get over the shameof even putting it on the page?
You said, okay, so, you know,maybe you don't love talking
about it.
Edmund White (09:51):
loved writing about it.
Uh, even when I was 14, I waswriting about gay sex, long
before anybody else was.
Jason Blitman (10:00):
Yeah.
Edmund White (10:00):
I wrote, uh, a novel called The Tower Window
when I was 14.
And, um, do you wanna say helloto my husband?
Jason Blitman (10:11):
Sure.
Edmund White (10:17):
Hello.
Jason Blitman (10:18):
Hello, husband.
Edmund White (10:20):
I see you handsome.
So, um, uh, always liked towrite about it, uh, I was always
a, truth teller.
Jason Blitman (10:33):
Mm.
Edmund White (10:34):
I mean, I think that's what novelists are.
Uh.
Uh, weirdly enough, I think thatwe the ones that tell the truth.
Jason Blitman (10:44):
Yeah,
Edmund White (10:45):
are the ones who lie.
Jason Blitman (10:47):
So you're, you're saying that even from a young
age, shame was never a part ofit for you?
It just came, it, it camenaturally to just put this on
the page?
Edmund White (10:56):
Uh, I had no shame as a writer,
Jason Blitman (10:59):
Yeah.
Edmund White (11:00):
as a person.
I did, uh, I mean, uh, Ioftentimes, uh, felt bad, you
know, like I'm 85, so who grewup in the you know, no one ever,
no one approved of gay sex inthose days.
Jason Blitman (11:21):
Yeah.
Edmund White (11:23):
It was
Jason Blitman (11:23):
Up.
Edmund White (11:24):
illness and I went to a psychiatrist trying to get
better.
Jason Blitman (11:27):
Right.
But, but putting yourself on thepage was a way of, of not sne,
not sneaking around, but it wasa, it, it's a, it's a safe
space.
The page.
Yeah.
Edmund White (11:41):
Also, it was a way of being innovative.
Yeah,
Jason Blitman (11:45):
hmm.
Edmund White (11:47):
containing the word novel is novel new and, and
you try to write about somethingnew, which in those days in the
fifties was very new.
Jason Blitman (11:59):
Yeah.
Uh, you write in this also thatthere is still a prudishness
about sex.
Why do you think that is?
Edmund White (12:09):
I think it came back, I mean,
Jason Blitman (12:11):
Oh, interesting.
I, hmm.
Edmund White (12:14):
And then it came back in the au Uh, I, I don't
know why.
I guess, um, I mean, I guesspartly because of aids,
Jason Blitman (12:26):
Sure.
Edmund White (12:27):
I mean, and, but I think also I think like, uh, the
internet.
Uh, fostered a lot of hypocrisypeople could cruise on the
internet without their loversknowing.
Jason Blitman (12:42):
Hmm.
Edmund White (12:43):
um, so they could, they could watch porno, they
could jerk off talking tosomebody, they could, um, have a
whole affair with somebody ormake rendezvous with other
people.
All online without, I mean,being tracked down
Jason Blitman (13:05):
Right.
Edmund White (13:05):
the, uh, jealous love.
So I think that, um, couldpretend to be prudish because
that was considered classy and,and, uh, and they, and they, uh.
They could actually be sluts,uh, be in real life.
Jason Blitman (13:27):
Yeah.
Edmund White (13:28):
because of the internet.
Jason Blitman (13:30):
Yeah.
And it's uh, harder for peopleto find out.
Edmund White (13:33):
Exactly.
I mean, like, you know, with,even with, uh, that your lover
could always phone you and catchyou in the middle of something.
Jason Blitman (13:42):
Mm.
Edmund White (13:43):
didn't you pick
Jason Blitman (13:44):
Mm-hmm.
Edmund White (13:45):
what were you doing?
Jason Blitman (13:47):
Yeah.
Edmund White (13:48):
you know, and I, I had, I had a very jealous lover
in the seventies before allthese things, before these
little telephones or anything.
um.
And as soon as I'd walk in thedoor, he'd say, well, it's 15
(14:09):
minutes from your house to mine.
You've taken 25 minutes.
What did you do with that extra10 minutes?
You know?
And, uh, you get
Jason Blitman (14:19):
You can get into a lot of trouble in 10 minutes.
Edmund White (14:22):
Right.
Jason Blitman (14:24):
Were you never the jealous type?
Edmund White (14:27):
Almost never
Jason Blitman (14:28):
Hmm.
Edmund White (14:29):
uh, mean, not sexually jealous, but if
somebody was actually in lovewith somebody else, I could be
jealous if I
Jason Blitman (14:41):
Hmm.
Edmund White (14:41):
love with them.
and of the weird things I did inmy life that I don't haven't
written about, I guess, is thatas the years would go by, I
would, I would manage to sleepwith my old lovers, lovers.
(15:02):
I mean, you know, that's one ofthe weird things about gay life
is
Jason Blitman (15:07):
Yeah.
Edmund White (15:08):
is that like a sex bar written by a, a Frenchman in
the 19th century was all aboutmen and women, and the men
hiding under the bed while thehusband comes in.
But in gay life, everybody's,uh, a target or available.
I mean, they, they're endlesspossibilities.
Jason Blitman (15:29):
Yeah.
And the, the pool is smaller,
Edmund White (15:32):
Yeah, there are fewer, fewer gays, but
Jason Blitman (15:35):
right?
Edmund White (15:35):
uh, but every man who is gay, can be a
participant.
Jason Blitman (15:41):
Right, right.
Exactly.
Oh, that's so funny.
How interesting.
Yeah, I, I, I think I'm so stuckon shame and love and sex and,
uh.
You're writing about it simplybecause, you know, I think the
prudishness of it all comes fromshame and I'm, I wonder what
(16:03):
would happen if my generationand younger started to just
write about the things thatscared us or the things that we
felt shame about.
Would putting it down on paper,uh, set it free?
I wonder.
Edmund White (16:18):
I always feel that Gates have a rare opportunity.
they did before everybody gotmarried and had children.
uh, uh, that, that, I think thatin the past, gays had the rare
opportunity, uh, to be honest,because straight people say, oh,
I can't write about that.
What would my wife think?
Jason Blitman (16:38):
Um.
Edmund White (16:38):
neighbors think?
What would the PTA think?
All that?
What were the children think?
uh, G didn't have that problemuntil now.
Jason Blitman (16:47):
Yeah.
I mean, well meanwhile myhusband would be like, write
another one.
That one was good.
Tell tell me more.
Edmund White (16:56):
Oh, that's nice.
He's a,
Jason Blitman (16:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
He is a good sport.
We're all good sport, you know,we, it's, life is too short.
We try to be, uh, as open mindedas we can be.
Edmund White (17:07):
What?
You try to, if you lovesomebody, you want him to be
happy, and if he'll be happywith to bed with Bobby, why not?
Jason Blitman (17:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sure.
Um, you
Edmund White (17:19):
as he doesn't do it too often,
Jason Blitman (17:23):
what's too often to you,
Edmund White (17:25):
twice.
Jason Blitman (17:31):
you talk about how an essential part of memory.
Rehearsal.
The more you revisit memory, thelonger it sticks.
You said you're 85 years old.
You were talking in this bookabout experiences that were
happening when you were ateenager and beyond.
How have you sort of kept thesememories alive for you?
Edmund White (17:56):
I, I think a lot of'em through masturbation
fantasies, in other words.
Yeah.
I mean, because I think thewhole world.
Can be divided in the four thatthere are people who like visual
pornography and people who likewritten pornography.
And there are people who like tobe totally creative in their
(18:17):
pornography and make up newimaginary scenes or those who
like to replay old scenes.
And I'm one, I'm more, I'm morelike literary than visual.
And, and I
Jason Blitman (18:31):
Mm.
Edmund White (18:32):
to, Rewind, old memories,
Jason Blitman (18:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Edmund White (18:39):
that gets me off if I think, oh, that time that I
had those two men.
Jason Blitman (18:46):
So it almost sounds like the sex memoir is
probably, uh.
Better, quote, unquote,rehearsed than other aspects of
your life.
If you were say, writing about afamily member, right?
You're not necessarily replayingthe memories of your cousin over
and over again in your mind, butthese, these are getting
(19:06):
replayed over and over again.
Edmund White (19:08):
There you go.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (19:10):
Thinking about, you know, you spent time around
the world.
Uh, has, do you feel like loveand sex and joy of all of the
behavior was different in theStates versus Paris?
Edmund White (19:27):
Oh yeah, I do.
I mean, like in Paris, uh,attractive boys are kept.
Jason Blitman (19:36):
Hmm.
Edmund White (19:36):
If they're poor, I mean, they find somebody rich
and who's older takes, who keepsthem in, in style.
uh, but in America people don'tlike that.
They want to be independent.
They, they don't want some rich,older men taking care of them.
Jason Blitman (19:55):
Hm.
Edmund White (19:55):
They want to be themselves um, and, and have, or
at least be independent.
So that's a big difference.
Other differences are that, uh,the French, uh, really like
perverted sex.
And, and so in a, in a personalad, you'll say, I am perverse
(20:20):
looking for the same.
I am a
Jason Blitman (20:23):
Hmm.
Edmund White (20:24):
And, uh, but.
Americans tend to avoid that,although they might do it in
real life, but they, they meet,but they won't advertise it.
Jason Blitman (20:35):
Hmm.
Edmund White (20:35):
Uh, but the French are very frank about that.
I think in general, the Frenchare realistic everything and
certainly about sex.
I mean.
But you know, like a, a Frenchperson will say to you, oh, my
grandmother's lover, blah, blah.
almost no Americans can say mygrandmother's lover.
(20:58):
You know, we just, we put oldpeople on the back shelf and
about them, and they, they takethem, they take themselves out
of the running.
Jason Blitman (21:08):
Hmm.
Edmund White (21:09):
but I can't tell you how many French friends of
mine had grandparents who hadlovers.
Jason Blitman (21:17):
Well you, I mean, you just said how many old
people take their themselves outof the running.
Meanwhile, you just publishedyour sex memoir in 85.
Good for you.
Good for you for not takingyourself out of the running.
Edmund White (21:31):
Well, I'm a little bit French, I think I lived
there 16 years and I like tothink at least, and not right
now, I'm writing a book aboutthe Fourteenth's gay brother.
Jason Blitman (21:44):
Uh, yes.
I've heard you talk about thison some other people's podcasts,
and at the time you said youhadn't even written anything
yet.
You were just in the researchstage.
Has that changed?
Edmund White (21:54):
I've written about 50 pages now.
Jason Blitman (21:56):
Oh, wow.
Exciting.
Okay.
Um, you said you think you're alittle bit French, uh, and I was
gonna make a very crude jokeabout how after 16 years you
might still have a little bit ofFrench inside of you.
Edmund White (22:10):
Oh, well, yeah, probably.
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (22:16):
You know, talking about this, this new book that
you're working on, as I said,I've heard you speak on other
podcasts, you've spoken a lotabout how you've written.
Multiple, you have multiplenovels that are finished
already, uh, waiting to bepublished.
and you said to somebody elsethat the assumption is that
because you're such a prolificwriter and you can't seem to
(22:38):
stop, which I think we're allgrateful for, that it's
inevitable that some will bepublished posthumously.
Is there, is there anythingyou'd wanna say to that as a, as
a concept or to, to.
The future of readers
Edmund White (22:55):
Oh, well maybe they'll earn some money for my
husband who, 25 years youngerthan I am, and, uh, you know,
uh, I don't know.
Uh,
Jason Blitman (23:07):
buy the book so Michael can make some money.
Edmund White (23:09):
yeah, exactly.
Jason Blitman (23:11):
Right.
That's, that's your, yourposthumous message to the one,
to the world.
Edmund White (23:16):
right.
Right.
Jason Blitman (23:17):
That's totally fair.
The book spanned so much timeand you have really everything
from the joy of gay sex, to justhaving so much sex.
You talk about.
in writing porn, one needs tosort of know the slang of the
moment.
are there things that havesurprised you about how sex has
(23:38):
evolved or how sexual behaviorhas evolved or in the course of
your lifetime?
Just
Edmund White (23:45):
have you heard of people called Demi Sexuals?
Jason Blitman (23:49):
uhhuh.
Edmund White (23:50):
I mean, I think that's unusual.
But I mean,
Jason Blitman (23:52):
Oh sure.
Edmund White (23:54):
fun thing, the fun thing about that is somebody who
doesn't wanna have sex unlessthey're in love with somebody,
that's the way it used to alwaysbe for everybody.
Jason Blitman (24:04):
Yeah.
Edmund White (24:04):
mean, that was the Victorian ideal.
the idea that has become aperversion in our day is so
strange
Jason Blitman (24:13):
Hmm.
Edmund White (24:14):
You know, people have to feel something before
they wanna have sex.
that must mean they're, theyneed therapy.
I think that's what crazy.
Jason Blitman (24:25):
Well, it's, and yet the book is called The Loves
of My Life.
It's not called The Sexcapadesof My Life.
I.
Edmund White (24:34):
Yeah.
Right, right.
Uh, it sounds better.
Jason Blitman (24:41):
So you're saying that, that maybe it's actually
the sex Capades of your life,but the loves of my life sells
better.
Edmund White (24:47):
Well, I, I, I think you, you know, I wrote the
biography of the Jeanine
Jason Blitman (24:52):
Yeah.
Edmund White (24:53):
he once said, uh, I never experienced in a pure
state, by which he meant healways fell a little bit in love
with every partner.
And, and to him, a pure state ofsex would, be devoid of emotion.
It would just be mechanical or,or, you know, physical.
Jason Blitman (25:15):
Yeah.
Edmund White (25:16):
uh, and I, I, I'm the same way.
I mean, I, at the baths, I usedto fall in love with a little
bit with each partner.
Jason Blitman (25:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, like we said at thebeginning of the conversation,
even just making eyes withsomeone across the subway, you
know, there's something thatdraws you to them.
so you talk about, you know,demisexual being something that
feels very new and different toyou.
What about over the course of,of your sex life for yourself?
Were there things that were newthat surprised you?
Edmund White (25:49):
I was, I kind of discovered that for, for a long
time, about 15 years, I was intos and m.
Uh, of course first as an S andthen an m
Jason Blitman (26:04):
Hmm.
Edmund White (26:04):
and um, uh, although usually it's the
reverse.
I mean, people, people have tolearn how to be, uh, sadistic by
being slaves first.
Jason Blitman (26:18):
Hmm.
Edmund White (26:18):
and then they get to be, I started off just
because I had a.
A trick who was so irritated,don't touch my hair, don't do
this.
Dude.
finally slapped him then he cameand I, I thought, wow, that's
exciting.
And, uh, because he was soannoying.
(26:41):
I mean, that and that, uh, thatgot me going.
Jason Blitman (26:46):
Yeah.
Edmund White (26:46):
But I mean that whole.
Uh, experience of s and m camewas like a huge cresting wave,
and then
Jason Blitman (26:57):
Hmm.
Edmund White (26:57):
it dred away.
I, I, I lost interest in itfinally, but I had liked it for
years and years.
Jason Blitman (27:05):
Well, I think it's amazing to hear you talk
about that because, I don't knowif it's just my generation or
people in general who sort of,uh.
I, I feel like I witness peoplewho get sort of stuck in their
ways or in their behavior andthey feel like they're not
allowed to change and evolve.
And my husband and I have beentogether 11 years now and just,
(27:26):
we are, we appreciate beingopen-minded of just like what
life can bring to you, whether,who knows, whatever that means,
whether it's sexual or not.
we're not gonna be the samepeople tomorrow as we were
yesterday because it's.
Edmund White (27:41):
very fortunate.
That means you'll have a longterm relationship.
You'll have a long relationshipbecause you're evolving
together.
Uh, but most people get so stuckand they, but they become so
boring.
Like, yes.
I, I was thinking of somethingoutrageous that would get me in
lots of trouble if I said it.
(28:01):
So now I'm gonna get in lots oftrouble.
I, I was thinking about all,these boys who complained that
village priest to crafted them.
I was thinking, well, at leastthat means they have one
interesting thing to talk aboutduring their long, boring
Midwestern lives.
Jason Blitman (28:23):
Oh my God.
Edmond
Edmund White (28:26):
I know, I, I, I should be compassionate because
sister, four years older than Iam, has battled Ancest her whole
life.
Jason Blitman (28:40):
Mm.
Edmund White (28:40):
now she's still on the couch.
Trying to deal with the, becauseour father raped her when she
was 13
Jason Blitman (28:48):
Yeah.
Edmund White (28:48):
she became pregnant and then she had a
miscarriage she's never gottenover that.
Jason Blitman (28:53):
Mm.
Edmund White (28:54):
And uh, and Michael also had some sexual
experiences when he was just sixwith his hunky older, uh, cousin
Jason Blitman (29:05):
Mm
Edmund White (29:06):
and who was like 18 and then my best friend, his
mother seduced him over and overagain when he
Jason Blitman (29:14):
mm.
Edmund White (29:15):
and he, he's quite screwed up and, a, um, ketamine
addict.
Jason Blitman (29:22):
Hmm.
Edmund White (29:23):
you know, I mean, I don't know.
I, so I, I, I do see that incestcan be really serious.
But I, I, I just wish would talkabout it in a more frivolous
way.
Jason Blitman (29:37):
Mm.
Well, you know, you also saidyou should have more compassion
because, and I don't know thatyou.
for all intents and purposes,joking about the neighborhood
priest means that you don't havecompassion.
I think it means that you'rebringing levity to something
that is very difficult, I think,to talk about.
Edmund White (30:00):
I never thought, oh, this will make a good story.
But, uh, you know, I, uh.
And then sometimes you onlyrealize, like, only in writing
this book did I realize had beenraped twice,
Jason Blitman (30:16):
Mm.
Edmund White (30:17):
both times by very distinguished Englishmen who got
me drunk and, uh, raped me.
I mean that, but it, I don'tthink it's such a big deal for,
for an adult man.
be raped.
Jason Blitman (30:37):
You talking about.
All of these experiences thatyou had.
I mean, thank you for sharingall of that.
I, I, you know, I, while Iappreciate that you can be
nonchalant about it, thatdoesn't mean that it hasn't had
some semblance of effect on youthroughout your life.
Um, quite a prolific sex lifeyou've had.
(30:58):
and just in general life ingeneral.
You've lived through many,different versions of the gay
community., If you were to havea conversation with your younger
self about, about love, aboutthe future, about sex, is there
something that comes to mindthat you'd want to share with
the younger version of Edmond?
Edmund White (31:20):
Well, I would say, don't assume that you know
anything about.
Gay life after just one or twoyears of experience in your
particular decade?
I mean that, uh, the, the the14th brother I'm writing about,
and all of his companions, theyall had wives, they all had
(31:44):
children, they all had loversthat they were made in love with
and they all had mistresseswomen.
Jason Blitman (31:53):
Yeah.
Edmund White (31:53):
Other women too.
So, I mean, it, it doesn't makesense if you think well, about
gay life now, where everybody'sso compartmentalized
Jason Blitman (32:04):
Hmm.
Edmund White (32:04):
and um, and, and bisexuality is just seen as
being in the closet.
Jason Blitman (32:13):
Hmm.
Edmund White (32:13):
You know, I mean, people really are so unfair to
bisexual and, um.
I don't know.
I, I mean, I, if I had to talkto my younger self, I would say
that, I would say, uh, look toyour friends for love not to
(32:34):
lovers
Jason Blitman (32:35):
Hmm.
Edmund White (32:35):
love, uh, and, cultivate your friends and never
betray them
Jason Blitman (32:40):
Hmm.
Edmund White (32:41):
uh, and never put them on the back burner when you
get a new love or the way mostpeople do.
I think that's a terrible thingthat.
That would be advice and, andthe, and the whole thing about,
don't assume that Life is onebig uniform thing.
Jason Blitman (32:58):
Yeah.
that's really beautiful and,important I think for me to, to
think about as well.
If I were to ask the samequestion about, about.
Talking to the queer communityat large or a young queer person
today, would you say the samething or might you say something
different to a stranger?
Edmund White (33:17):
well, if they ask the same question, I guess I
would
Jason Blitman (33:20):
Well, right.
I guess if a, if a young gayperson said to you, Hey, you're
an an elder gay, what would yousay to me?
It, it, I, it would be some,some version of that.
Edmund White (33:30):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (33:31):
Yeah.
Edmund White (33:31):
flexible in your thinking if, if not your
behavior.
I mean, I don't think.
Not everybody can be, beflexible in their behavior, but,
but they should, uh, be flexiblein their understanding.
Jason Blitman (33:47):
Yeah.
Edmund White (33:47):
and I think that not everyone, but I think
everyone can be, can take theirfriends very seriously and
realize that a family of friendsis really.
Important.
Jason Blitman (34:02):
Yeah.
Edmund White (34:02):
third thing is that beware of religion.
It's the biggest enemy in all ofits forms of gay life,
Jason Blitman (34:10):
Hmm.
Edmund White (34:11):
Muslim Islam or Christianity or Judaism.
They all hate fags
Jason Blitman (34:18):
Hmm.
Edmund White (34:18):
they all, they're all poison.
And, uh, and I, I know thatpeople say, oh, well we belong
to the wonderful gay church witha wonderful gay pastor.
But come on, that's very rare.
And, and if you think of all theyoung people, I have so many
(34:39):
friends who are.
Who are Mormons who've committedsuicide,
Jason Blitman (34:44):
Hmm.
Edmund White (34:45):
who, you know, the Mormons are told that they,
they, they're exiled from theirfamily forever if they're gay.
And, uh, you know, I mean,that's the same religion that
accepted black people about 30years ago.
Jason Blitman (35:02):
Hmm.
Edmund White (35:03):
'cause they were all children of ham.
And, uh, you know,
Jason Blitman (35:08):
Right.
Edmund White (35:09):
But religion is really hateful and everybody
should fight it.
Jason Blitman (35:13):
I have such complicated, feelings about
organized religion in general.
Um, I wasn't, no, I was broughtup somewhat Jewish.
Um, I just find.
Uh, none of it is, it's allridiculous to me.
Yeah.
Joyce Carol Oates, your former,uh, office mate is quoted as
(35:35):
saying that you are, you'refamous for your generosity and
your kindness.
Where does that come from?
Edmund White (35:44):
Maybe, maybe my mother who was, she had those
qualities.
She
Jason Blitman (35:50):
Mm.
Edmund White (35:50):
her whole life as, um.
Uh, uh, with brain damagedchildren.
I think they're more up to dateterms for, they're mentally
challenged now.
But anyway, uh, she worked in afree clinic, at at, at Cook
County Hospital in Chicago, shedevoted her whole life.
(36:14):
Uh, six in the morning tilleight in the evening.
To her patients.
And, uh, was a psychologist, butshe was director of a medical
clinic and she was quitereligious in, in a kind of
crazy, way.
I mean, she was a Christianscientist,
Jason Blitman (36:37):
Hmm.
Edmund White (36:37):
didn't, uh, ignore medicine.
Jason Blitman (36:41):
How lovely that that's where, where you think
you got those pieces of youfrom, I, in doing my research.
On you for this episode.
Uh, my husband turned to me andhe was like, why are you
smirking?
And I said, I'm prepping forthis guest.
I'm just so charmed by him.
To, to which he said, he'sfucked a million people.
(37:03):
He's gotta be charming.
I was like, Hey, you're notwrong.
Edmund White (37:10):
I never thought of that, but that's a good, good
observation.
Jason Blitman (37:17):
After all these years, you think that's what it
was?
Your charm, your delightfulpersonality,
Edmund White (37:23):
Well, I think that works better on women than men.
I think that, um, had a taxidriver in Paris once, and I was
just for novelistic reasons, Iwas asking him, uh, how much of
a, of a, a high class prostituteCause
Jason Blitman (37:42):
Mm
Edmund White (37:42):
you know, I was asking all that.
uh.
He said, well, I wouldn't knowand you wouldn't have any
trouble with your charminglittle accent in French.
And, um, but anyway, he said, ifyou, if you can make a woman
laugh, nine times out of 10, youcan seduce her.
Jason Blitman (38:02):
mm and you do not feel that was the case for men.
Edmund White (38:05):
I don't think they care.
Jason Blitman (38:07):
Did you not care, uh, whether or not a man was
charming?
Edmund White (38:14):
I, guess not.
I mean, you know, uh, they sayhe could charm the pants off
somebody,
Jason Blitman (38:26):
Uh,
Edmund White (38:26):
not sure that's true.
Jason Blitman (38:32):
sometimes I feel like that's all I have going for
me, so I hope that it is true.
I hope people.
Like the charm.
Edmund White (38:38):
Well, you also handsome,
Jason Blitman (38:40):
well, thank you.
I was not fishing, I just, I,uh, I tend to lean into the
charm.
you are so prolific.
This episode is coming outduring June, during Pride, happy
pride.
Um, uh, what does it mean toyou?
(39:01):
To be at this stage in yourlife, in your career, to be one
of the sort of founding fathersof gay literature, what does
that mean to you?
That's such a, I just thought ofthat.
Turned a phrase.
How crazy.
You're a founding father of gayliterature, Edmund White.
It.
Edmund White (39:22):
Well.
I mean, I think of, of issuewith, as having been the real
one.
Uh, he, I worship of him and,uh, I think of myself as a
disciple of him.
Uh, but of course other greatgays like Jeane, Ian, all, all
(39:43):
those people are foundingfathers
Jason Blitman (39:46):
Yeah.
Oh, I, I didn't say one.
There's plural, there are some,you know, uh, handfuls, but
certainly.
You know, of contemporaryculture, you really straddle a
line between, you know, pre andpost aids, pre and post.
I mean, not post aids, AIDS isnot, has not gone anywhere, but
(40:07):
just straddling the line ofdifferent periods of gay life
of, of contemporary world.
So if I am putting you on thatpedestal, what does that mean to
you?
Edmund White (40:20):
Um, well, I hope it means that my next book will
get published.
I'm not
Jason Blitman (40:30):
Yes.
Why is that?
Edmund White (40:33):
my editor is so possy.
Uh, you know,
Jason Blitman (40:41):
Who do we have to write to?
I'm gonna write a letter, anangry letter.
Edmund White (40:45):
Okay, good.
No, I mean, uh,
Jason Blitman (40:49):
I hope that it means you get published too.
How could you know, it's funnyyou say this because at some
point you talk about havingwritten four books prior to your
first one getting published.
Have those four books ever seenthe light of day?
Edmund White (41:03):
received letter?
No, but one of them could.
I think I, I, I, I say in mywill, uh,
Jason Blitman (41:11):
I.
Edmund White (41:11):
uh, I authorized Michael to publish one of them,
which I think is kind of good.
But, uh, the other three, no.
Jason Blitman (41:20):
Okay, well now you have everybody curious.
That's okay.
You should have like a burningceremony where they just, you
Edmund White (41:29):
right,
Jason Blitman (41:30):
get, get rid of them.
Um.
Oh God, no.
Not that kind of burningceremony.
No, no, no.
Edmund White (41:40):
books,
Jason Blitman (41:41):
I know, I guess, I guess technically that would
be burning books.
No, we don't want that.
Sending it off into the world sothat it's, it just goes on and,
and isn't something that can bepublished anymore.
Well, I hope we see, uh, all ofthe Edmund White books that you
want out in the world.
That's what I think isimportant.
Edmund White (42:01):
Yeah.
I've put in one called, uh, theSpirit Lamp, which my editor is
harassing me about right now.
And uh, and then I have anotherone called Hospitality.
Which is kind of crazy and allover the place, but it, think
(42:23):
it, it has some very amusingwriting in it.
Jason Blitman (42:27):
Yeah.
Edmund White (42:27):
And then the one I'm doing now called Missier,
'cause the King's brother wasalways called Missier.
that was his official title
Jason Blitman (42:39):
Fabulous.
Edmund White (42:40):
every generation and um, and I, I find him an
amazing, interesting character.
And, um, so I hope I lived it.
Finish from Messe.
Jason Blitman (42:53):
Yeah.
Are you a fast writer?
Edmund White (42:56):
Well, this one I'm writing by hand.
Jason Blitman (42:59):
Oh
Edmund White (43:00):
I, I used to write by hand and then I went to the
computer and then, then I got sointimidated by writing on the
computer that I've gone back tohand.
Jason Blitman (43:11):
yeah.
Edmund White (43:12):
Also it means like late at night, I can still keep
scribbling
Jason Blitman (43:16):
Mm.
Edmund White (43:16):
because my computer's in the wrong room.
Jason Blitman (43:19):
Right, right.
Of course.
Edmund White (43:20):
And, uh, so if I write by hand I can just keep on
going.
And, um, but, uh, I have thischarming young friend who types
a hundred words a minute, andwho's gonna come in and let me
dictate?
That, that book to him, uh, justso I can get an advance for it.
Jason Blitman (43:46):
Yes.
Amen.
He is gonna put the dick anddictate.
Edmund White (43:50):
Yeah, right.
There you go.
Jason Blitman (43:54):
Oh my God.
Edmund White (43:55):
do you, what do you write?
Jason Blitman (43:56):
You know, it's funny that you asked that.
I am not really a writer though.
Anne Patchett told me that youare whatever you tell yourself.
And so if I tell myself I'm nota writer, then I will never be.
but I do, I've had a few ideasfor a story and there's one that
won't go away for years now.
So I'm gonna, I think, lean intothat a little bit.
Edmund White (44:18):
She's very nice, isn't she?
Jason Blitman (44:19):
She is a delight.
Edmund White (44:21):
Yeah.
No, she's wonderful
Jason Blitman (44:23):
Yeah.
Edmund White (44:24):
and, uh, I love her writing and.
and her, uh, her novel about,um, hermaphrodite was really
good.
Jason Blitman (44:36):
Mm.
Yeah.
She, uh, she talks about how shedoesn't let anyone see a single
piece of the book that she'swriting until she's done so.
Edmund White (44:48):
I am the opposite.
I, I.
I, I, I have to be praised by mypoor husband every day or I
can't keep going.
I'm easily discouraged.
Jason Blitman (45:01):
No.
Well listen you so many books.
You clearly doing somethingright
Edmund White (45:07):
Well, he lives,
Jason Blitman (45:08):
or he is who, however, it's working.
It's working.
That's all right.
Edmund White (45:13):
Thank you.
Jason Blitman (45:14):
I Edmund White.
It is such a pleasure to haveyou here on gay's reading Happy
Pride there.
There's.
Edmund White (45:21):
pride to you.
Jason Blitman (45:22):
you.
I feel like there's no one elseI'd rather be celebrating pride
with than, uh, one of the, oneof the many founding fathers of
gay literature.
Um, you know, I think we allhave those, our, our own
forefathers.
But I am a, I'm a late in lifereader and so the loves of my
life was actually my first, myintroduction to Edmund White.
(45:43):
And I know, and so I heard youtalking to somebody else about
how you wish more people wouldtalk to you about your novels.
So that's why I immediately wentout to get this.
'cause I have to read a boy'sown story.
I, I'm about 20 pages in.
I can't wait to devour all ofthe things.
You're gonna keep me very busy.
Edmund White (46:03):
Oh yeah.
have, my college lover isreading my entire works, I
think.
He's the only person in theworld, uh, done except me maybe,
but, uh, uh, but he, he'senjoying it.
He says,
Jason Blitman (46:21):
I love that you're still in touch with him.
Edmund White (46:23):
Yes, yes.
We're best friends.
We see each other every Thursdayafter his shrink appointment.
Jason Blitman (46:30):
I love that.
Shout out to him.
We love it.
Do you, you see each other everyThursday?
Do you do something specific?
Do you.
Edmund White (46:37):
Oh, he brings lunch.
Jason Blitman (46:38):
Oh, so just a little lunchtime.
Edmund White (46:40):
Yeah.
Jason Blitman (46:40):
I love that.
Edmund White (46:42):
he, he's a, a famous beauty, uh, I mean, you
know, like when we livedtogether, cars would screech to
a halt and people would jumpoutta their cars and say, would
you like to go with me to Egyptor whatever.
I, I mean, he was that kind ofbeautiful and
Jason Blitman (47:02):
And he would say no.
And you would turn to the personand say, I'll go.
Edmund White (47:06):
No, but he, uh, he um, he, he looked like, he looks
like Billy Paul Newman lookedwhen he was young.
He is that handsome.
Jason Blitman (47:15):
Oh, wow.
Uh, we love, we love time.
Time is a, is a, is a nasty,terrible friend.
Um, Edmund, I feel like I could,I could talk to you all day.
I could, I could sit in here,listen to all of your stories
all day.
thank you so much for beinghere.
Edmund White (47:32):
Thank you so much, Yeah.
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