This episode is a deep dive into the rich tapestry of midlife, featuring insights from lifespan developmental psychologist Dr. Margie E. Lachman. Our discussion navigates the balance of growth and decline that defines this phase and how it can surprisingly catalyze creativity and invention.
From understanding the role of a spouse or parent to discussing the increasing trend of adults choosing not to marry or have children, we tackle the many elements that shape our midlife journey. We shed light on the challenges and rewards of the 'sandwich generation' and explore the intricacies of generativity, a state of peak concern and caring for others that brings purpose and meaning to this phase of life.
As we close our conversation, we discuss adversity, resilience, and personal growth in midlife. Learn how early life experiences cast a long shadow over midlife and how resilience can help us overcome these limitations. We also emphasize the crucial role of physical activity in maintaining health and well-being during this phase. Inspired by the American Psychological Association's special issue on Rethinking Adult Development, we invite you to rethink adult development and the stress that often accompanies midlife. So, tune into this enlightening episode for a fresh perspective on midlife.
American Psychological Association Special Issue on Adult Development: https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/special/amp-rethinking-adult-development-pdf
Midlife in the United States Website: https://midus.wisc.edu/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So welcome to the show, Margie.
Really happy you're here.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Well, thank you for having me.
I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Oh, you're welcome.
Could you start by giving ourlisteners some insight into your
background and how you becameinterested in the topics we'll
be discussing today?
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Sure, I'd be happy to .
So I'm a lifespan developmentalpsychologist and the main
premise is that development andgrowth are possible throughout
life, and that seems obvious now, but when I first started in
the field, it was largelybelieved that development was
pretty much completed byadolescents, and this grew out
(00:34):
of views promoted by SigmundFreud and Jean Piaget.
And I first became interestedin aging and ways to promote
successful aging from thislifespan perspective.
Prior to that, old age wasprimarily studied by
geriatricians, who were mainlyfocused on how to treat illness
and disabilities that come withage, whereas the lifespan
(00:57):
approach that I use enriched thestudy of aging by focusing on
the process of aging.
So how is later life influencedby earlier periods and what can
we do to optimize aging with afocus on prevention?
So I first focused on childdevelopment, the early end of
the lifespan, and then on thelater end of the lifespan, and
(01:18):
then I was invited to join aresearch group funded by the
John D and Catherine T MacArthurFoundation, where they asked us
to focus on midlife, becausethey determined that midlife was
really the least studied areaof the life course.
So we set out to try tounderstand what happens in
midlife and we began a verylarge study today it's known as
(01:41):
midlife in the United Stateswhich started with a nationally
representative sample of over7000 adults between the ages of
25 and 75.
And we followed them for almost30 years and we're currently
continuing our study and we'velearned a lot about this midlife
period and I will say that Ifind midlife to be very
(02:03):
fascinating period with a lot ofinteresting issues.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I'm laughing, margie, because that is awesome.
You're the perfect podcastguest for this.
This is wonderful.
Delighted to hear that.
So could you tell us a littlebit, then, about what makes
midlife unique in the context ofhuman development and lifespan
development?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
So first I want to think about what we mean by
midlife.
Usually the first question Iget asked is when is midlife?
So if we use chronological ageto define midlife, then we think
it typically encompasses ages40 to 65, plus or minus 5 or 10
years.
But another way that I like tothink about midlife is as an
(02:45):
event or role based position inthe family or work setting, and
that's not directly tied to age,because people have different
life course events at differentages.
So in that sense, midlife iswhen you're in the middle
generation and the family and inthe workplace, and so you're
interacting a lot with those whoare younger and older, and so
(03:09):
being in the middle, whichsometimes we call the halfway
point, actually has specialsignificance.
And so what you did earlier inlife can have a big impact on
how your midlife plays out, andwhat you do in midlife can have
an important impact on laterlife, and I like to think of
this as a pivotal period.
(03:31):
Pivotal, according to thedictionary, means of crucial
importance in relationship tothe development or success of
something else.
And so I've called midlife apivotal period, because it does
play a very important role inone's own development and the
development of others in yoursocial network.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, that's a really great way to frame it.
I know in your writings you'vetalked a little bit about
midlife being a balance ofgrowth and decline, which is
something that we need toconfront.
Could you tell us a little moreabout that, please, Sure.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
So throughout life we experience both gains and
losses, or we could call itgrowth and decline, and in
midlife there are some thingsthat I think we know are on the
decline path Things like howspeed of processing or your
memory, functional health andphysical things like bone mass,
(04:25):
lung function, muscle strength.
These are all losses or thingsthat are on their way down,
although we can do some thingsabout it.
That's the important thing.
Sometimes we are able tomaintain functioning without
loss.
But then there are other thingsthat are increasing.
So things like knowledge we had, gaining experience, we're
(04:46):
getting better at emotionregulation, we increase our
sense of purpose in life andmeaning in life.
A sense of control increases,self-confidence increases.
So that's what I mean, in thesense that there's both things
on the downswing and things onthe upswing, and we thought that
this balance would actually putmidlife in a favorable spot,
(05:07):
that it would be a peak periodof functioning, and we actually
investigated this with a studyof inventors.
I did this with two economists,adam Jaffe and Mary Kultenberg,
and what we hypothesized wasthat because certain aspects of
cognitive functioning, orintelligence, what we call the
pragmatics of intelligence areon the increase, these are the
(05:33):
things that are really on theway up and in fact they're very
close to a peak in midlife.
This is based on yourexperience and all the knowledge
that you've gained.
On the other hand, what we callthe mechanics of intelligence
that's on the down swing.
It decreases with age, but yetin midlife it's still pretty
much intact.
It still has a ways to gobefore it goes too low and
(05:58):
people find that these changesat different rates for different
people.
But so what we postulated isthat midlife would be the most
productive period, given thisbalance of the pragmatics, or
growth, and the mechanics on thedecline.
So, on the one hand, theprocesses that are declining are
still pretty good they've notreached their low point and the
(06:19):
things that are improving arecontinuing to rise and reaching
their peak.
So we thought this balancecould be an ideal time for
creativity and invention, and wein fact found support for that.
So we found that midlife wasthe peak period for patenting
across the lifespan.
Inventors continue to becreative and get patents into
(06:42):
later life, and but patentfilers were most productive
around midlife.
We also found that about 22% ofthe first time inventors were
over the age of 50 years of age.
Some inventors continue to beproductive well into their 60s
and beyond, and it was notunusual for inventors to file
(07:04):
patents for the first time laterin life.
So this is something thatcontinues to develop.
People can be creative inmidlife and beyond.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah, I really like that because to me it signifies
something we can start.
Now isn't too late.
It may be something that we canstill have longevity in
investing in and creating andbecoming what we want.
I think sometimes that isn'tthe popular conception of
midlife.
I think sometimes there's somemisconceptions, and I'm guessing
(07:36):
you found some of those in yourresearch.
Would you tell us about some ofthose please?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yes, you are right about that.
Of course, the big one is themisconceptions about a midlife
crisis, so I would be remiss ifI didn't address that.
If you say the word midlife,most people immediately
associate it with crisis.
I've done this with my classFree association midlife and
(08:00):
they say crisis and I think it'sjust a universal.
Now, of course, the midlifecrisis has gotten a lot of
attention in the media in novelsand movies and TV shows and
it's certainly the source ofmany jokes.
It's kind of a fun thing totalk about.
We have these sort ofstereotypic images of what the
midlife crisis is, but ourresearch shows that most people
(08:23):
do not have a crisis in midlife.
Now, that said, there are somepeople who do have a legitimate
crisis in midlife, so we can'tdiscount it completely.
We found, depending on thesample, between 10 and 20% of
our adult population will reportthat they have had a midlife
crisis, although many more thanthat expect that they will have
(08:44):
a midlife crisis based on thestereotypes and the expectations
, and I think that contributes alot to people in their 30s
really dreading turning 40.
So we're thinking about having amidlife crisis.
The other thing to keep in mindis people have different
definitions of what they mean bycrisis, and so we don't really
(09:04):
have a clear sense of whatpeople say they're having a
crisis, what they mean by that.
In fact, in our research therewere some people who said, yes,
I had a midlife crisis, and weasked them, like, how old were
you?
We thought you know, it mightbe 40 or 50.
It's actually was 30 or it was65.
So it's not the crisis thatthey call midlife doesn't
(09:25):
necessarily occur in midlife.
So people do have issues thatoccur at all points in the life.
You don't have to be in midlifeto have a crisis, and so, I
think, in midlife, what iscommon is that you get to a
certain point, whether it'sturning 50 or turning 50, and it
can trigger some concerns aboutgrowing older and fears that
(09:48):
time is running out.
And it is a time when peoplethink about where have I been,
where am I going, where am I now?
And it's only natural to thinkabout making changes.
Is there something wrong withmaking changes or going in new
directions?
But I wouldn't necessarily wantto label that a crisis.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
That's actually.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
But, that said, midlife can be a stressful and
difficult time.
Not everybody is at the top oftheir game in midlife, and so we
do want to acknowledge that.
There's been much written uplate about the deaths of despair
in midlife due to drug andalcohol use or suicide, and that
is a really serious concernthat we do need to address.
(10:31):
There are some people that aredown and out and not doing well.
In fact, clinical depressiondoes peak in midlife.
Fortunately, that's somethingthat can be treated, and so I
think it's important for peopleto differentiate a midlife
crisis from depression, forexample.
So people may be feeling bad andhaving issues but to say it's a
(10:51):
midlife crisis.
We don't necessarily havetreatments for midlife crisis,
but we do for depression.
So I think it's important thatwe really understand what's
going on and not necessarilylabel it as a crisis.
I think many people do raisequestions at midlife about what
they've done.
Have they met their goals, havethey accomplished what they set
(11:13):
out to do?
And they may want to make somechanges, or they realize they
didn't do everything theythought they did, and they may
revise their goals and go in newdirections, and I think that's
really a natural process at anytransition point, certainly in
midlife, but it also could be atother points in time as well
transitioning from earlyadulthood into midlife, or from
(11:36):
midlife into later life, orafter one graduates college or
whatever it might be.
Transitions are a natural pointfor thinking about where one is
and where one's going, and itcan create some uncertainty and
something that we do need totake into account and address.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Oh, definitely, I love that perspective.
That's really the point of weassociate midlife with crisis,
and one of my faults on the showis being kind of an optimist
about changing the narrativeabout these generations, even
just in a small way, like yousaid, acknowledging that we do
(12:17):
experience difficulties inmidlife.
We also experience them acrossthe lifespan, but we're also in
a unique place in midlife toadapt to those challenges,
hopefully in a healthy way, withsupport and knowledge.
I know one area that is uniqueto midlife is we have
intergenerational relationships.
(12:38):
Can you talk a little bit abouthow that relates to the midlife
experience?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yes, definitely.
I think of midlife as a periodwhere we bridge across
generations.
You literally are in the middleof the younger and older
generations, both in terms ofone's family, but also in
society in general, in theworkplace, but the trajectory of
midlife will really differdepending on what roles you have
(13:05):
.
It's typically the time withthe most roles, so you may be a
spouse, a parent, an adult child, a worker, etc.
But not everybody has the samerole, so there's a lot of
diversity, and that complicatesour study of midlife, because
people have different lifesituations.
(13:26):
And the other thing to keep inmind is that there are a lot of
demographic changes going onright now, so the number of
adults who are marrying has beendeclining, as has the number of
people who have children, andthe age at which people marry
and the age at which they havechildren are creeping up.
The timing of when these eventshappen really does have an
(13:49):
impact on how midlife plays outin terms of relationships with
younger and older family members, and some people are actually
grandparents in midlife.
It depends again on how youngyou were when you had children,
or how young your parents werewhen they had you, and so the
intergenerational relationshipsof aging Really do play a role
(14:13):
in terms of what roles you willhave in midlife, but there are
many middle-aged adults who havegrandparents and some people
don't become grandparents untilWell past midlife.
But I do think that theConsistent experience is that
much of the attention in midlifeis to the needs of other people
, whether they be your childrenor your co-workers or people in
(14:38):
your Religious institutions orother other settings.
It's a very common focus.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah, for sure.
A term I've heard is sandwichgeneration.
Yeah and that speaks to whatyou're saying and I think I'm
guessing there's a lot that goeson psychologically in terms of
the emotion, rewards of that andthe challenges.
So could you talk just a littlebit more about what you've seen
in your research with that, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
In midlife there is a need to balance multiple roles
and juggle demands, and that canbe a primary source of problems
and stress, and so theprototypical middle-aged adult
who has children living at homeand adult parents who are aging
and starting to need help in avariety of ways is what we refer
to as the sandwich generation,and kind of squeezed between the
(15:28):
needs of the younger and theolder adults in the family and
at the same time thesemiddle-aged adults are also
dealing with their own demandsat work and taking care of their
own health, because after all,middle-aged adults are
Experiencing changes in healthand physical functioning that
really do require attention.
(15:48):
So it really can be a verystressful time.
And I think this notion ofsandwich, kind of slapped in
between these Slept between twopieces of bread, or I'd like to
think of it more as a bridge.
I like that, that analogy,better that there you go.
Bridge between generations, butcertainly the sandwich
(16:08):
generation or the squeeze, doesget a lot of attention.
I think it's also important topoint out that this is it can
also be a very rewarding time,because you really are
experiencing a lot of positivityin the typically in the kinds
of roles that you're playing.
They're very rewarding and alsowe do find that life
(16:31):
satisfaction does increase withage.
So this is a time, this periodthat we call Sandwiched in
between generations.
It's a time when you are neededand it makes life very
meaningful.
It's a time when caring forcare I guess what.
It's a time when caring andconcern for others is at a peak.
(16:53):
We call this generativity, yes,being something that this comes
from Erickson's work that I knowthat you've spoken about in
some of your earlier podcasts.
So this notion of jetgenerativity, or concern and
caring for others, really is ata peak in midlife, if not by
default, but I think it's reallymakes a lot of sense because
(17:15):
Developmentally, it reallyyou're no longer have to worry
about who you are and whatyou're doing, necessarily where
you're becoming, so now you canactually, based on your own
experience, help other people todevelop and become full-fledged
adults.
So I think this can bring a lotof satisfaction and sense of
meaning and purpose, and one canderive a lot of pleasure From
(17:38):
guiding and helping others.
So we see this play out notjust in the family but also in
the workplace, religious groupsand volunteer work in the
community and otherorganizations.
And Another term that I like tothink about is mentoring.
Mentoring comes naturally inmidlife because you've gotten,
(18:00):
you've had, you've gone throughthe ropes in a way.
You've obtained experience incertain domains and now you can
share that with other people andso you can make a difference
using your own accumulatedexperience and skills, whether
it's you know people in thefamily or children or neighbors,
or People in the workplace orother avenues in society.
(18:23):
It's a mentoring becomes, Ithink, a really satisfying role
in midlife.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I can definitely providepurpose meaning and just a
positive way to interact acrossgenerations, in my Experience
and I would imagine for others.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
I would agree very much so.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
I'd kind of like to move into talking about
Adversity and the challenges,but then growth, you know, from
a I guess you'd call positivepsychology type of perspective.
Really, there are a coupleareas of adversity I've seen in
your writing.
One, one area that I've heardare kind of those early Life
events that influence midlife.
Yes, please talk a little bitmore about that.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Sure, we've done a few studies that have looked at
how Experiences in early lifehave a long reach into midlife,
both emotionally and physically.
So, for example, childhoodadversity Can really have
long-term effects on midlife.
So two kinds of things thatwe've looked at is people from
(19:25):
low socio-economic environments,where they have Limited
resources in childhood, or ifthey have mistreated, say maybe
child abuse or something alongthose lines, can have long-term
effects and they may be tied tothings like chronic diseases in
midlife, inflammation, poorcognition, early immortality,
(19:49):
and we do see what sometimesreferred to as the biological
residue of these early lifeevents.
But I don't want to stop there,because the good news is that
it's possible to mitigate theseeffects of adversity.
So even though you may havesome adverse experiences as a
young adult or a child, thatdoesn't predetermine that you're
(20:12):
going to have problems inmidlife.
There are what we callresilience factors or plasticity
, that allow you to adjust andadapt and Really overcome the
limitations.
So you're at risk You're atgreater risk for poor outcomes,
but there are many things thatcan mitigate or moderate these
effects, such as psychologicalresources like having Warm
(20:38):
family Relationships or havingpeople, a support network of
some sort that can play abuffering role To protect your
health against adversity, orpeople who get more education.
Those additional education inadulthood can really overcome
some of the limitations that orrisks that you might be
(21:01):
associated with having earlylife adversity.
So, and also there's other sortof psychological resources like
having a sense of control whatI call it can do attitude Can
really help you to overcome someof the limitations.
So, yes, we do see that earlylife Influences can play out in
midlife and can have negativeeffects, but we are really happy
(21:24):
to find that there are theseresilience factors that can help
people to reduce the risk andto basically have these benefits
and resources that will helpthem to Really play out in a
much more positive way inmidlife.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yeah, so fascinating and such an important point.
I I've been thinking too aboutthe unique adversities of
midlife, or some of those thatare more common, maybe a death
of a parent, a child moving out,a divorce, you know.
Would you say that it's similarin terms of personal growth, or
are there some unique factorsto consider in that as well?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Yeah, so, um, we In midlife, there are going to be a
lot of adverse events thatcould happen and we can.
That's good thing.
That I that we really know fromthe work that we've done, is
that you can learn from yourpast experiences.
So we all are going to facechallenges throughout life, and
(22:27):
one of our studies we found thatamong those who had faced
adversity such as an illness,death of someone close or loss
of a job, unemployment can bevery distressing.
More than 80% said that theywere able to learn something
beneficial from the hardshipsand that they experienced
personal growth.
(22:47):
So what they did?
They are able to draw on theirpast experiences to cope with
new problems and To share theirexperiences with others in times
of difficulty.
So learning from difficultiescan really go a long way and if
you can get through the hardtimes and find ways to cope,
(23:08):
this can help To increase yourself-esteem and your confidence
to handle other challenges thatare likely to come along,
because we all do facechallenges.
So adversity is.
We don't like to experienceadversity, but once one is able
to cope with it, it actually canlead to some positive growth.
The effects of midlife Are long, also have a long reach on
(23:32):
later life.
So your health in midlife andhow well you're doing in midlife
can have long-term effects onyour later life health and
longevity.
There's been a number ofstudies that have shown that
Things like hypertension inmidlife or obesity in midlife
Increase your risk of havingproblems such as dementia or
(23:52):
Alzheimer's disease in laterlife many, many years later.
So this is a good reason forbeing vigilant in midlife about
exactly what's health andwell-being In midlife?
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yeah, yeah, it's important to Take those small
steps we can now to cultivateWell, wellness and well-being,
and I'm sure some of thoseaction steps have been shown in
your research, you know.
Could you talk about some, somemaybe specific actions that
people can take towards growthand happiness and well-being?
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Sure.
So I want to acknowledge thatmidlife can be challenging,
given all the demands.
There's no doubt about that, butthere's always going to be
bumps in the road, so it'simportant to develop skills to
meet them and something thatwill help you to acquire skills
that can be shared with others.
(24:45):
So I think it's important tokeep in mind that there will
always be ups and downs and thatthis is particularly salient in
midlife.
So things that I think arereally important are having a
good social support network.
That can go a really long way.
So Asking others for help andsupport can be important for
(25:07):
navigating the middle years.
One should not hesitate to askfor help, because you also will
be able to give to others andhelp others, and that also seems
to be beneficial.
So it's not just receivingsupport, but giving support and
helping others goes a long wayin terms of being beneficial for
(25:28):
your well-being.
So I wanted to add one otherthing that I would be remiss if
I didn't mention, and that isthat what seems to be a panacea
for everything is physicalactivity.
I've done a number of studieson physical activity, and the
percentage of people who arephysically active is relatively
(25:50):
small, believe it or not, in theUnited States, and there are so
many studies that show thepositive benefits of being
physically active for allaspects of health.
Now, it doesn't necessarilymean going to the gym or this
activity.
It could be moderate activitywith things like walking, but
(26:12):
being physically activeincreases one's well-being, both
physical health, psychologicalhealth and cognitive health, and
this is the one thing that islike not refuted in the
literature.
There's never been anythingthat shows it's negative.
It always has positive,long-term effects.
(26:32):
So I want to emphasize thatphysical activity and I think
you could combine your socialinteractions with physical
activity you can go on a walkwith someone else, and there you
get.
You've got two things going atthe same time.
You've got your social contact,social support and then also
physical activity, but alsoexercising the brain is
(26:53):
important as well.
Keeping your mind active withcognitive-stimulating activity
seems to be protective for lossof memory and other cognitive
abilities which many people inmidlife report are seen to be
starting to show declines.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Can you give an example of keeping your
cognition active?
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, it could be, as well as listening to a podcast.
You're digesting informationand you're learning something
new.
Learning something new isreally the key because it
creates new pathways in thebrain.
So it's always good to learnsomething new, whether it's
listening to information in alecture or a podcast.
(27:39):
But also learning new skillslike learning how to nib or
learning how to work a computer,whatever it might be all of
those things learning new thingsare really good for improving
one's cognitive abilities.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Yeah, great Boy, I lobbed that softball up to you
and knocked it out of the park.
I just want the listeners toknow we didn't plan that.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
No, it was definitely spontaneous.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
So this has been so much great information, margie,
as we move towards the end ofthis.
I know this is a reallydifficult question for someone
who's written and researched somuch about midlife, but if I
asked you to give us a primarytakeaway or a message you want
us to know about midlife, whatwould it be?
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Yeah, I like that question.
You're right, this probablycould take another half hour or
so, but I won't.
I would try to make it succinct, but I think this is what I
would say.
What one does in midlife has animpact on the well-being of
those younger and older in thefamily, workplace and society in
(28:51):
general, and it also haslong-term consequences for one's
own later life.
The young and old alike rely onthose in midlife to provide
resources, make decisions andsolve problems.
So what I would say isinvestment in one's health and
well-being in midlife can reallypay big dividends in the future
(29:14):
, not only for oneself, but forall of those who are in your
social realm.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Well said and something to continue to think
about and integrate into ourlives.
Thank you so much.
I'm wondering I'm sure you'vesparked a lot of interest in the
listeners in terms of wantingto learn more.
Along this line, what resourceswould you recommend for those
that want to continue learning?
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yeah, I'd be happy to suggest.
I think the first place I wouldgo is to the website for our
Midlife in the United Statesstudy.
Okay, we have a wealth ofinformation, not only for
researchers but also for thegeneral public, and so that
website is very simple it'sMidas W-I-S-C, e-d-u, so it's
(30:08):
headquartered at the Universityof Wisconsin.
That's why it's W-I-S-C, soMidasWisp E-D-U is a really
fantastic website that has allof our research from the Midas
study and it's really, I think,a lot of information that the
general public would findinteresting.
For those who are moreadventurous and might want to
(30:31):
read something from a scientificjournal, there was a special
issue that I worked on withcolleagues Jeff Arnett and
Oliver Robinson in 2020, may2020.
There was a special issue ofthe American psychologist, and
you could get that at APAorg sothe American Psychological
(30:53):
Associationorg and it's aspecial issue called Rethinking
Adult Development, and it has alot of interesting papers about
how things are changing inadulthood, with a particular
focus across the young, middleand later life.
But there's quite a few paperson Midlife per se that I wrote
(31:13):
with colleagues Frankenfer andDennis Gerstoff, and also
there's some papers about stressin midlife and how it's
increasing.
So I think people would find itquite interesting, and it's
written in a more general sensethan some of the scientific
papers that you might find, so Iwould recommend that as well.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Oh, that sounds perfect.
So put those links in ourepisode description as well, to
make it easier for people tofind.
Okay, excellent.
So those are great, margie.
As we come to a close, this hasbeen a really enlightening,
thought-provoking discussion ona well-lived midlife and beyond,
and it's really empowering toknow that the things we've been
(31:59):
talking about are backed up byresearch, and so, on behalf of
everyone listening, thank youfor all the work that you've
done to provide that researchbackground for us to learn from
and for us to grow from, andalso just thank you for sharing
your time with us today and yourknowledge.
It's been a real pleasure.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Yeah, well, I've enjoyed it as well.
It's been my pleasure to sharethe information and I appreciate
you're asking me to participatein this podcast.
It's been a lot of fun.
I enjoyed your questions.
Wonderful and we're stimulatingit, so I appreciate that.
So welcome to the show, Margie.
Really happy you're here.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Well, thank you for having me.
I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Oh, you're welcome.
Could you start by giving ourlisteners some insight into your
background and how you becameinterested in the topics we'll
be discussing today?
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Sure, I'd be happy to .
So I'm a lifespan developmentalpsychologist and the main
premise is that development andgrowth are possible throughout
life, and that seems obvious now, but when I first started in
the field, it was largelybelieved that development was
pretty much completed byadolescents, and this grew out
(00:34):
of views promoted by SigmundFreud and Jean Piaget.
And I first became interestedin aging and ways to promote
successful aging from thislifespan perspective.
Prior to that, old age wasprimarily studied by
geriatricians, who were mainlyfocused on how to treat illness
and disabilities that come withage, whereas the lifespan
(00:57):
approach that I use enriched thestudy of aging by focusing on
the process of aging.
So how is later life influencedby earlier periods and what can
we do to optimize aging with afocus on prevention?
So I first focused on childdevelopment, the early end of
the lifespan, and then on thelater end of the lifespan, and
(01:18):
then I was invited to join aresearch group funded by the
John D and Catherine T MacArthurFoundation, where they asked us
to focus on midlife, becausethey determined that midlife was
really the least studied areaof the life course.
So we set out to try tounderstand what happens in
midlife and we began a verylarge study today it's known as
(01:41):
midlife in the United Stateswhich started with a nationally
representative sample of over7000 adults between the ages of
25 and 75.
And we followed them for almost30 years and we're currently
continuing our study and we'velearned a lot about this midlife
period and I will say that Ifind midlife to be very
(02:03):
fascinating period with a lot ofinteresting issues.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I'm laughing, margie, because that is awesome.
You're the perfect podcastguest for this.
This is wonderful.
Delighted to hear that.
So could you tell us a littlebit, then, about what makes
midlife unique in the context ofhuman development and lifespan
development?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
So first I want to think about what we mean by
midlife.
Usually the first question Iget asked is when is midlife?
So if we use chronological ageto define midlife, then we think
it typically encompasses ages40 to 65, plus or minus 5 or 10
years.
But another way that I like tothink about midlife is as an
(02:45):
event or role based position inthe family or work setting, and
that's not directly tied to age,because people have different
life course events at differentages.
So in that sense, midlife iswhen you're in the middle
generation and the family and inthe workplace, and so you're
interacting a lot with those whoare younger and older, and so
(03:09):
being in the middle, whichsometimes we call the halfway
point, actually has specialsignificance.
And so what you did earlier inlife can have a big impact on
how your midlife plays out, andwhat you do in midlife can have
an important impact on laterlife, and I like to think of
this as a pivotal period.
(03:31):
Pivotal, according to thedictionary, means of crucial
importance in relationship tothe development or success of
something else.
And so I've called midlife apivotal period, because it does
play a very important role inone's own development and the
development of others in yoursocial network.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, that's a really great way to frame it.
I know in your writings you'vetalked a little bit about
midlife being a balance ofgrowth and decline, which is
something that we need toconfront.
Could you tell us a little moreabout that, please, Sure.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
So throughout life we experience both gains and
losses, or we could call itgrowth and decline, and in
midlife there are some thingsthat I think we know are on the
decline path Things like howspeed of processing or your
memory, functional health andphysical things like bone mass,
(04:25):
lung function, muscle strength.
These are all losses or thingsthat are on their way down,
although we can do some thingsabout it.
That's the important thing.
Sometimes we are able tomaintain functioning without
loss.
But then there are other thingsthat are increasing.
So things like knowledge we had, gaining experience, we're
(04:46):
getting better at emotionregulation, we increase our
sense of purpose in life andmeaning in life.
A sense of control increases,self-confidence increases.
So that's what I mean, in thesense that there's both things
on the downswing and things onthe upswing, and we thought that
this balance would actually putmidlife in a favorable spot,
(05:07):
that it would be a peak periodof functioning, and we actually
investigated this with a studyof inventors.
I did this with two economists,adam Jaffe and Mary Kultenberg,
and what we hypothesized wasthat because certain aspects of
cognitive functioning, orintelligence, what we call the
pragmatics of intelligence areon the increase, these are the
(05:33):
things that are really on theway up and in fact they're very
close to a peak in midlife.
This is based on yourexperience and all the knowledge
that you've gained.
On the other hand, what we callthe mechanics of intelligence
that's on the down swing.
It decreases with age, but yetin midlife it's still pretty
much intact.
It still has a ways to gobefore it goes too low and
(05:58):
people find that these changesat different rates for different
people.
But so what we postulated isthat midlife would be the most
productive period, given thisbalance of the pragmatics, or
growth, and the mechanics on thedecline.
So, on the one hand, theprocesses that are declining are
still pretty good they've notreached their low point and the
(06:19):
things that are improving arecontinuing to rise and reaching
their peak.
So we thought this balancecould be an ideal time for
creativity and invention, and wein fact found support for that.
So we found that midlife wasthe peak period for patenting
across the lifespan.
Inventors continue to becreative and get patents into
(06:42):
later life, and but patentfilers were most productive
around midlife.
We also found that about 22% ofthe first time inventors were
over the age of 50 years of age.
Some inventors continue to beproductive well into their 60s
and beyond, and it was notunusual for inventors to file
(07:04):
patents for the first time laterin life.
So this is something thatcontinues to develop.
People can be creative inmidlife and beyond.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah, I really like that because to me it signifies
something we can start.
Now isn't too late.
It may be something that we canstill have longevity in
investing in and creating andbecoming what we want.
I think sometimes that isn'tthe popular conception of
midlife.
I think sometimes there's somemisconceptions, and I'm guessing
(07:36):
you found some of those in yourresearch.
Would you tell us about some ofthose please?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yes, you are right about that.
Of course, the big one is themisconceptions about a midlife
crisis, so I would be remiss ifI didn't address that.
If you say the word midlife,most people immediately
associate it with crisis.
I've done this with my classFree association midlife and
(08:00):
they say crisis and I think it'sjust a universal.
Now, of course, the midlifecrisis has gotten a lot of
attention in the media in novelsand movies and TV shows and
it's certainly the source ofmany jokes.
It's kind of a fun thing totalk about.
We have these sort ofstereotypic images of what the
midlife crisis is, but ourresearch shows that most people
(08:23):
do not have a crisis in midlife.
Now, that said, there are somepeople who do have a legitimate
crisis in midlife, so we can'tdiscount it completely.
We found, depending on thesample, between 10 and 20% of
our adult population will reportthat they have had a midlife
crisis, although many more thanthat expect that they will have
(08:44):
a midlife crisis based on thestereotypes and the expectations
, and I think that contributes alot to people in their 30s
really dreading turning 40.
So we're thinking about having amidlife crisis.
The other thing to keep in mindis people have different
definitions of what they mean bycrisis, and so we don't really
(09:04):
have a clear sense of whatpeople say they're having a
crisis, what they mean by that.
In fact, in our research therewere some people who said, yes,
I had a midlife crisis, and weasked them, like, how old were
you?
We thought you know, it mightbe 40 or 50.
It's actually was 30 or it was65.
So it's not the crisis thatthey call midlife doesn't
(09:25):
necessarily occur in midlife.
So people do have issues thatoccur at all points in the life.
You don't have to be in midlifeto have a crisis, and so, I
think, in midlife, what iscommon is that you get to a
certain point, whether it'sturning 50 or turning 50, and it
can trigger some concerns aboutgrowing older and fears that
(09:48):
time is running out.
And it is a time when peoplethink about where have I been,
where am I going, where am I now?
And it's only natural to thinkabout making changes.
Is there something wrong withmaking changes or going in new
directions?
But I wouldn't necessarily wantto label that a crisis.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
That's actually.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
But, that said, midlife can be a stressful and
difficult time.
Not everybody is at the top oftheir game in midlife, and so we
do want to acknowledge that.
There's been much written uplate about the deaths of despair
in midlife due to drug andalcohol use or suicide, and that
is a really serious concernthat we do need to address.
(10:31):
There are some people that aredown and out and not doing well.
In fact, clinical depressiondoes peak in midlife.
Fortunately, that's somethingthat can be treated, and so I
think it's important for peopleto differentiate a midlife
crisis from depression, forexample.
So people may be feeling bad andhaving issues but to say it's a
(10:51):
midlife crisis.
We don't necessarily havetreatments for midlife crisis,
but we do for depression.
So I think it's important thatwe really understand what's
going on and not necessarilylabel it as a crisis.
I think many people do raisequestions at midlife about what
they've done.
Have they met their goals, havethey accomplished what they set
(11:13):
out to do?
And they may want to make somechanges, or they realize they
didn't do everything theythought they did, and they may
revise their goals and go in newdirections, and I think that's
really a natural process at anytransition point, certainly in
midlife, but it also could be atother points in time as well
transitioning from earlyadulthood into midlife, or from
(11:36):
midlife into later life, orafter one graduates college or
whatever it might be.
Transitions are a natural pointfor thinking about where one is
and where one's going, and itcan create some uncertainty and
something that we do need totake into account and address.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Oh, definitely, I love that perspective.
That's really the point of weassociate midlife with crisis,
and one of my faults on the showis being kind of an optimist
about changing the narrativeabout these generations, even
just in a small way, like yousaid, acknowledging that we do
(12:17):
experience difficulties inmidlife.
We also experience them acrossthe lifespan, but we're also in
a unique place in midlife toadapt to those challenges,
hopefully in a healthy way, withsupport and knowledge.
I know one area that is uniqueto midlife is we have
intergenerational relationships.
(12:38):
Can you talk a little bit abouthow that relates to the midlife
experience?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yes, definitely.
I think of midlife as a periodwhere we bridge across
generations.
You literally are in the middleof the younger and older
generations, both in terms ofone's family, but also in
society in general, in theworkplace, but the trajectory of
midlife will really differdepending on what roles you have
(13:05):
.
It's typically the time withthe most roles, so you may be a
spouse, a parent, an adult child, a worker, etc.
But not everybody has the samerole, so there's a lot of
diversity, and that complicatesour study of midlife, because
people have different lifesituations.
(13:26):
And the other thing to keep inmind is that there are a lot of
demographic changes going onright now, so the number of
adults who are marrying has beendeclining, as has the number of
people who have children, andthe age at which people marry
and the age at which they havechildren are creeping up.
The timing of when these eventshappen really does have an
(13:49):
impact on how midlife plays outin terms of relationships with
younger and older family members, and some people are actually
grandparents in midlife.
It depends again on how youngyou were when you had children,
or how young your parents werewhen they had you, and so the
intergenerational relationshipsof aging Really do play a role
(14:13):
in terms of what roles you willhave in midlife, but there are
many middle-aged adults who havegrandparents and some people
don't become grandparents untilWell past midlife.
But I do think that theConsistent experience is that
much of the attention in midlifeis to the needs of other people
, whether they be your childrenor your co-workers or people in
(14:38):
your Religious institutions orother other settings.
It's a very common focus.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah, for sure.
A term I've heard is sandwichgeneration.
Yeah and that speaks to whatyou're saying and I think I'm
guessing there's a lot that goeson psychologically in terms of
the emotion, rewards of that andthe challenges.
So could you talk just a littlebit more about what you've seen
in your research with that, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
In midlife there is a need to balance multiple roles
and juggle demands, and that canbe a primary source of problems
and stress, and so theprototypical middle-aged adult
who has children living at homeand adult parents who are aging
and starting to need help in avariety of ways is what we refer
to as the sandwich generation,and kind of squeezed between the
(15:28):
needs of the younger and theolder adults in the family and
at the same time thesemiddle-aged adults are also
dealing with their own demandsat work and taking care of their
own health, because after all,middle-aged adults are
Experiencing changes in healthand physical functioning that
really do require attention.
(15:48):
So it really can be a verystressful time.
And I think this notion ofsandwich, kind of slapped in
between these Slept between twopieces of bread, or I'd like to
think of it more as a bridge.
I like that, that analogy,better that there you go.
Bridge between generations, butcertainly the sandwich
(16:08):
generation or the squeeze, doesget a lot of attention.
I think it's also important topoint out that this is it can
also be a very rewarding time,because you really are
experiencing a lot of positivityin the typically in the kinds
of roles that you're playing.
They're very rewarding and alsowe do find that life
(16:31):
satisfaction does increase withage.
So this is a time, this periodthat we call Sandwiched in
between generations.
It's a time when you are neededand it makes life very
meaningful.
It's a time when caring forcare I guess what.
It's a time when caring andconcern for others is at a peak.
(16:53):
We call this generativity, yes,being something that this comes
from Erickson's work that I knowthat you've spoken about in
some of your earlier podcasts.
So this notion of jetgenerativity, or concern and
caring for others, really is ata peak in midlife, if not by
default, but I think it's reallymakes a lot of sense because
(17:15):
Developmentally, it reallyyou're no longer have to worry
about who you are and whatyou're doing, necessarily where
you're becoming, so now you canactually, based on your own
experience, help other people todevelop and become full-fledged
adults.
So I think this can bring a lotof satisfaction and sense of
meaning and purpose, and one canderive a lot of pleasure From
(17:38):
guiding and helping others.
So we see this play out notjust in the family but also in
the workplace, religious groupsand volunteer work in the
community and otherorganizations.
And Another term that I like tothink about is mentoring.
Mentoring comes naturally inmidlife because you've gotten,
(18:00):
you've had, you've gone throughthe ropes in a way.
You've obtained experience incertain domains and now you can
share that with other people andso you can make a difference
using your own accumulatedexperience and skills, whether
it's you know people in thefamily or children or neighbors,
or People in the workplace orother avenues in society.
(18:23):
It's a mentoring becomes, Ithink, a really satisfying role
in midlife.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I can definitely providepurpose meaning and just a
positive way to interact acrossgenerations, in my Experience
and I would imagine for others.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
I would agree very much so.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
I'd kind of like to move into talking about
Adversity and the challenges,but then growth, you know, from
a I guess you'd call positivepsychology type of perspective.
Really, there are a coupleareas of adversity I've seen in
your writing.
One, one area that I've heardare kind of those early Life
events that influence midlife.
Yes, please talk a little bitmore about that.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Sure, we've done a few studies that have looked at
how Experiences in early lifehave a long reach into midlife,
both emotionally and physically.
So, for example, childhoodadversity Can really have
long-term effects on midlife.
So two kinds of things thatwe've looked at is people from
(19:25):
low socio-economic environments,where they have Limited
resources in childhood, or ifthey have mistreated, say maybe
child abuse or something alongthose lines, can have long-term
effects and they may be tied tothings like chronic diseases in
midlife, inflammation, poorcognition, early immortality,
(19:49):
and we do see what sometimesreferred to as the biological
residue of these early lifeevents.
But I don't want to stop there,because the good news is that
it's possible to mitigate theseeffects of adversity.
So even though you may havesome adverse experiences as a
young adult or a child, thatdoesn't predetermine that you're
(20:12):
going to have problems inmidlife.
There are what we callresilience factors or plasticity
, that allow you to adjust andadapt and Really overcome the
limitations.
So you're at risk You're atgreater risk for poor outcomes,
but there are many things thatcan mitigate or moderate these
effects, such as psychologicalresources like having Warm
(20:38):
family Relationships or havingpeople, a support network of
some sort that can play abuffering role To protect your
health against adversity, orpeople who get more education.
Those additional education inadulthood can really overcome
some of the limitations that orrisks that you might be
(21:01):
associated with having earlylife adversity.
So, and also there's other sortof psychological resources like
having a sense of control whatI call it can do attitude Can
really help you to overcome someof the limitations.
So, yes, we do see that earlylife Influences can play out in
midlife and can have negativeeffects, but we are really happy
(21:24):
to find that there are theseresilience factors that can help
people to reduce the risk andto basically have these benefits
and resources that will helpthem to Really play out in a
much more positive way inmidlife.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yeah, so fascinating and such an important point.
I I've been thinking too aboutthe unique adversities of
midlife, or some of those thatare more common, maybe a death
of a parent, a child moving out,a divorce, you know.
Would you say that it's similarin terms of personal growth, or
are there some unique factorsto consider in that as well?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Yeah, so, um, we In midlife, there are going to be a
lot of adverse events thatcould happen and we can.
That's good thing.
That I that we really know fromthe work that we've done, is
that you can learn from yourpast experiences.
So we all are going to facechallenges throughout life, and
(22:27):
one of our studies we found thatamong those who had faced
adversity such as an illness,death of someone close or loss
of a job, unemployment can bevery distressing.
More than 80% said that theywere able to learn something
beneficial from the hardshipsand that they experienced
personal growth.
(22:47):
So what they did?
They are able to draw on theirpast experiences to cope with
new problems and To share theirexperiences with others in times
of difficulty.
So learning from difficultiescan really go a long way and if
you can get through the hardtimes and find ways to cope,
(23:08):
this can help To increase yourself-esteem and your confidence
to handle other challenges thatare likely to come along,
because we all do facechallenges.
So adversity is.
We don't like to experienceadversity, but once one is able
to cope with it, it actually canlead to some positive growth.
The effects of midlife Are long, also have a long reach on
(23:32):
later life.
So your health in midlife andhow well you're doing in midlife
can have long-term effects onyour later life health and
longevity.
There's been a number ofstudies that have shown that
Things like hypertension inmidlife or obesity in midlife
Increase your risk of havingproblems such as dementia or
(23:52):
Alzheimer's disease in laterlife many, many years later.
So this is a good reason forbeing vigilant in midlife about
exactly what's health andwell-being In midlife?
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yeah, yeah, it's important to Take those small
steps we can now to cultivateWell, wellness and well-being,
and I'm sure some of thoseaction steps have been shown in
your research, you know.
Could you talk about some, somemaybe specific actions that
people can take towards growthand happiness and well-being?
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Sure.
So I want to acknowledge thatmidlife can be challenging,
given all the demands.
There's no doubt about that, butthere's always going to be
bumps in the road, so it'simportant to develop skills to
meet them and something thatwill help you to acquire skills
that can be shared with others.
(24:45):
So I think it's important tokeep in mind that there will
always be ups and downs and thatthis is particularly salient in
midlife.
So things that I think arereally important are having a
good social support network.
That can go a really long way.
So Asking others for help andsupport can be important for
(25:07):
navigating the middle years.
One should not hesitate to askfor help, because you also will
be able to give to others andhelp others, and that also seems
to be beneficial.
So it's not just receivingsupport, but giving support and
helping others goes a long wayin terms of being beneficial for
(25:28):
your well-being.
So I wanted to add one otherthing that I would be remiss if
I didn't mention, and that isthat what seems to be a panacea
for everything is physicalactivity.
I've done a number of studieson physical activity, and the
percentage of people who arephysically active is relatively
(25:50):
small, believe it or not, in theUnited States, and there are so
many studies that show thepositive benefits of being
physically active for allaspects of health.
Now, it doesn't necessarilymean going to the gym or this
activity.
It could be moderate activitywith things like walking, but
(26:12):
being physically activeincreases one's well-being, both
physical health, psychologicalhealth and cognitive health, and
this is the one thing that islike not refuted in the
literature.
There's never been anythingthat shows it's negative.
It always has positive,long-term effects.
(26:32):
So I want to emphasize thatphysical activity and I think
you could combine your socialinteractions with physical
activity you can go on a walkwith someone else, and there you
get.
You've got two things going atthe same time.
You've got your social contact,social support and then also
physical activity, but alsoexercising the brain is
(26:53):
important as well.
Keeping your mind active withcognitive-stimulating activity
seems to be protective for lossof memory and other cognitive
abilities which many people inmidlife report are seen to be
starting to show declines.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Can you give an example of keeping your
cognition active?
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, it could be, as well as listening to a podcast.
You're digesting informationand you're learning something
new.
Learning something new isreally the key because it
creates new pathways in thebrain.
So it's always good to learnsomething new, whether it's
listening to information in alecture or a podcast.
(27:39):
But also learning new skillslike learning how to nib or
learning how to work a computer,whatever it might be all of
those things learning new thingsare really good for improving
one's cognitive abilities.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Yeah, great Boy, I lobbed that softball up to you
and knocked it out of the park.
I just want the listeners toknow we didn't plan that.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
No, it was definitely spontaneous.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
So this has been so much great information, margie,
as we move towards the end ofthis.
I know this is a reallydifficult question for someone
who's written and researched somuch about midlife, but if I
asked you to give us a primarytakeaway or a message you want
us to know about midlife, whatwould it be?
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Yeah, I like that question.
You're right, this probablycould take another half hour or
so, but I won't.
I would try to make it succinct, but I think this is what I
would say.
What one does in midlife has animpact on the well-being of
those younger and older in thefamily, workplace and society in
(28:51):
general, and it also haslong-term consequences for one's
own later life.
The young and old alike rely onthose in midlife to provide
resources, make decisions andsolve problems.
So what I would say isinvestment in one's health and
well-being in midlife can reallypay big dividends in the future
(29:14):
, not only for oneself, but forall of those who are in your
social realm.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Well said and something to continue to think
about and integrate into ourlives.
Thank you so much.
I'm wondering I'm sure you'vesparked a lot of interest in the
listeners in terms of wantingto learn more.
Along this line, what resourceswould you recommend for those
that want to continue learning?
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yeah, I'd be happy to suggest.
I think the first place I wouldgo is to the website for our
Midlife in the United Statesstudy.
Okay, we have a wealth ofinformation, not only for
researchers but also for thegeneral public, and so that
website is very simple it'sMidas W-I-S-C, e-d-u, so it's
(30:08):
headquartered at the Universityof Wisconsin.
That's why it's W-I-S-C, soMidasWisp E-D-U is a really
fantastic website that has allof our research from the Midas
study and it's really, I think,a lot of information that the
general public would findinteresting.
For those who are moreadventurous and might want to
(30:31):
read something from a scientificjournal, there was a special
issue that I worked on withcolleagues Jeff Arnett and
Oliver Robinson in 2020, may2020.
There was a special issue ofthe American psychologist, and
you could get that at APAorg sothe American Psychological
(30:53):
Associationorg and it's aspecial issue called Rethinking
Adult Development, and it has alot of interesting papers about
how things are changing inadulthood, with a particular
focus across the young, middleand later life.
But there's quite a few paperson Midlife per se that I wrote
(31:13):
with colleagues Frankenfer andDennis Gerstoff, and also
there's some papers about stressin midlife and how it's
increasing.
So I think people would find itquite interesting, and it's
written in a more general sensethan some of the scientific
papers that you might find, so Iwould recommend that as well.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Oh, that sounds perfect.
So put those links in ourepisode description as well, to
make it easier for people tofind.
Okay, excellent.
So those are great, margie.
As we come to a close, this hasbeen a really enlightening,
thought-provoking discussion ona well-lived midlife and beyond,
and it's really empowering toknow that the things we've been
(31:59):
talking about are backed up byresearch, and so, on behalf of
everyone listening, thank youfor all the work that you've
done to provide that researchbackground for us to learn from
and for us to grow from, andalso just thank you for sharing
your time with us today and yourknowledge.
It's been a real pleasure.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Yeah, well, I've enjoyed it as well.
It's been my pleasure to sharethe information and I appreciate
you're asking me to participatein this podcast.
It's been a lot of fun.
I enjoyed your questions.
Wonderful and we're stimulatingit, so I appreciate that.
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