September 22, 2023 • 46 mins
I am excited to share my conversation with Dr. Amy Evans with you. In this episode, we discuss the influential theories of midlife developmental psychology and how we can use them towards the goal of midlife flourishing. We talk about navigating personality and relational shifts and how being cognizant of these changes can help us adjust our social circles and lifestyle choices to match our evolving selves. Retirement and second careers also come into view as we explore how to adapt healthily and maintain cognitive flexibility amidst these transitions. And, when faced with the unexpected, we discuss the importance of being prepared and ready to adjust. This episode is stacked with insight and practical tips - a great listen for anyone wanting to embrace midlife's potential.
More information about Amy:
https://www.bethel.edu/academics/faculty/amy-evans
Resources From Our Conversation:
https://brenebrown.com
Fostering Development in Midlife and Older Age
Values Card Sort:
https://motivationalinterviewing.org/sites/default/files/valuescardsort_0.pdf
If our discussion of Carl Rogers interested you:
Book How Listening Can Improve Relationships
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Glad to be here, Kyle .
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Wonderful.
Could you start by giving ourlisteners some insight in your
background and how you becameinterested in the topics we'll
be exploring today?
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Sure.
So a little backgroundinformation.
I've got a doctorate incounseling psychology from the
University of Wisconsin-Madison.
So I pursued that doctoratebecause through my undergrad and
through my master's I just gotmore and more curious about
things and then wanted to impartknowledge to counselors in
particular.
So my focus at present istraining counselors that with
(00:36):
the program I teach and come ina variety of different
developmental stages.
So we might have students whostart right out of undergrad and
we at times certainly havestudents who start basically
post-retirement.
At times they're like, oh, Iwant to go back and do this.
So we have a broad range ofstudents who come into our
(00:57):
program.
That's just fun and exciting.
But I've been curious aboutdevelopment really since my own
undergraduate degree, with thatwould have been the first time I
was really exposed to the fieldof psychology and when I took
my developmental psychologyclass I was just fascinated.
And since then I just continueto really look into it At times
(01:19):
have taught developmentalpsychology classes or
development at the counselorlevel, so the master's level,
teaching that or how to applythat in the counseling field.
So I just love to continue tostay in it and pay attention to
the details that are out therein the field.
But I digress, I shouldprobably stop babbling about
those things.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Oh no, that was perfect.
You are speaking my languageand you're getting me fired up
for our discussion.
Amy, this is exactly why Istarted this, because I love
talking to people like you andyour interest in this midlife
flourishing and midlife to humandevelopment area is just really
self evident and contagious.
So maybe this is a good chancefor you to talk a little bit
(02:01):
more about your perspective onmidlife, based on your training
in developmental psychology andhuman development.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
So really, kyle, in the past the focus from
developmental psychology in thefield was on decline.
For this stage of life it wasall about what's going wrong in
our bodies, like the fact that Ihave glasses on right now.
I didn't have to wear these twoyears ago and now I have to
when I'm sitting at a computer.
(02:29):
So it's a big challenge, withso many things that do change in
midlife, that the focus was somuch on decline.
I'm really thankful that thefield has really shifted a lot
towards growth at present.
So realizing that developmenthappens across life, not just
when we're infants and childrenand adolescents, but development
(02:52):
is happening throughout andthat can be growth that is
happening as well.
Certainly in developmentthere's losses that occur, but
there's also gains that canoccur.
So that focus is reallysomething that I appreciate in
the field, that even througholder age we can still develop
as well.
(03:13):
The other thing I reallyappreciate about the
developmental psych focus isthat with the different types of
development we might do likehealth development, social
development, emotionaldevelopment.
There's so many differentthings that come into there.
There's a multi-directionalinfluence that happens.
So realizing that is really keythat if we do something to
(03:36):
change our health that canimpact our thinking, so our
cognition, our socialopportunities and abilities,
depending on what our health waslike emotional opportunities,
spiritual, et cetera.
So I think it's just really agreat shift that's happened from
that focus on decline toinstead really the idea of
(03:58):
flourishing.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, I love that and I hear you talking about it
being kind of a web of wellness.
Almost it's not, we're not inall these different areas of
wellness, but they influenceeach other and kind of build
this braided rope of, hopefully,strengths that come together
and help us move forward.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yes, I really like that description.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Oh wonderful, thank you, I think I just came up with
that.
Actually I still look from theliteracy world, but that's the
first time I've used it in thiscontext.
But enough about my ego.
What are some kind ofmilestones or changes that
happen in this midlife time inthis study of developmental
(04:42):
psychology?
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Sure, so I'm gonna focus first on kind of some of
the theorists that really areimpactful within the field.
So most people who have heardabout developmental psychology
or had a course in it at somepoint have probably heard about
Eric Erickson.
So his focus on healthydevelopment I've always
appreciated.
It's one that stands out themost to me from my undergraduate
(05:07):
education when I first startedlearning about development.
Yet it's one that sometimesoften gets forgotten in later
adulthood.
So the stage that reallyapplies to this midlife period
and depending who you ask,midlife could be 40, 45, up
through 65, it really depends onwho you ask before what the
(05:29):
opinion is there, but that broadrange.
Erickson would have talked aboutthe idea of generativity versus
stagnation.
So that might be terminologypeople have heard before.
So in this stage, this psychosocial development is how he
talked about it.
Generativity is really what wewant to aim for, that.
(05:50):
So we want to figure out how wecontribute to society, to our
families, to our friend groups,to wherever we might be involved
in the community church,different social organizations,
so forth.
So figuring out how wecontribute to the world versus a
stagnation.
(06:10):
Really where people mightstruggle with that is that lack
of purpose, not seeing theirplace, not really knowing how
they can contribute.
So Erickson is certainly one aname that comes up that most
people are familiar with.
Another one that not as manypeople are familiar with,
surprisingly, is Robert Keegan,who is out of Harvard from quite
(06:33):
a number of years ago.
But he talked about a stagemodel as well, and in this
midlife stage what is happeningfor a lot of us is we might move
from what he would callsocialized mind to a
self-authoring mind.
So when I came across this itwas really fascinating to me
that really the main differencein these two stages is what's
(06:59):
most important to us, how wetake our view.
So, really, with the socializedmind which the majority of the
population who are adultsprobably are in and stay in,
which is okay but it's thelooking at what's important to
us from an external view, so howothers see us, how we operate
(07:20):
in the world, based on others'views, whereas the
self-authoring mind, then, isthis shift towards how we define
ourselves Rather than externalsources, really figuring out
what do I value, what do Ibelieve, what do I hold is true
for myself.
So I think that's a reallylovely thing to think about here
(07:42):
within this stage too, thatthat's what we want to move
towards, rather than having theworld around us define who we
are, figuring out what we valueand what we hold is true and
figuring out how that fits forus internally rather than that
external view.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Oh yes, I absolutely love that.
I hadn't heard of that theorybefore, but it reminds me of an
idea from existentialpsychotherapy that I heard
recently, and that's the idea ofan existential hero who,
instead of just followingsocietal norms, uses their
internal compass to navigatelife's big questions with a
(08:23):
strong sense of purpose andmorality.
So midlife is a unique timewhen we think about all of these
different areas in terms of ourpsychosocial development, moral
development, determining ourown values and authoring our
lives in that way.
So what are some of the keychallenges that people
(08:43):
experience during midlife thatthese would apply to?
Speaker 1 (08:48):
There can be so many different challenges that we
might encounter, but one that Iwanted to highlight today with
this conversation is the idea ofhappiness that there is in the
research.
It points to this U-curve thathappens in the life, that you
know in the 20s you knowhappiness is really high but
(09:11):
that actually in the 40s itbottoms out.
But then thankfully it can startto go up in the 50s.
So realizing that this happensand it is not universal Not
everyone's going to have thisbottom that happens in the 40s
but realizing that this is partof what might come is helpful.
(09:33):
So there's so many things goingon, Depending on the individual
.
There can be, you know, kids inhigh school.
Like I'm thinking of myselfright now, I've got kids in high
school also, one in college,one heading to college next year
, but there's all of this.
But then I've got aging parentsin in-laws.
There's the busyness that comeswith this stage of life.
(09:55):
Yet there's also in my life alittle more freedom.
That has come because I havekids who can drive.
So this is, it's a very busytime of life.
So just realizing that, yes,that busiest and everything that
comes within the 40s, dependingon what is going on in your
individual life, can reallyimpact how we're doing
(10:19):
psychologically.
So just realizing that we haveto pay attention to that and
honestly acknowledging thatthere is this kind of the term
middle essence is a term that'sused rather than adolescence.
Some people will talk aboutmiddle essence that in this
point of life there are so manytransitions.
(10:40):
So someone who's in their 40s,moving into their 50s, is
thinking about retirement butalso, in some ways, starting to
come to the reality of life'sgoing to end.
So that traditional idea of amidlife crisis that people talk
about, especially in theindustrialized world, is that
(11:02):
these transitions impact us andare ones that can be struggles.
So if we have that awarenessand are paying attention to that
, then we can account for thatin life to be able to manage
those transitions effectively.
We have way more ability atthis stage, compared to the
adolescent time period, to beable to deal with all the
(11:24):
transitions that are coming ourway.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
That's right.
It really all have such uniqueexperiences.
It's hard to you know, talkabout one area across all people
.
Our listeners are in so manyplaces with their kids, their
parents, their jobs, theirmarriages or their partnerships,
and so there's just so muchdiversity to this, the
challenges and the rewards ofthis time of our lives, so
(11:52):
there's no one answer.
But what do we know fromdevelopmental psychology in
terms of factors that we mightwant to focus on as we think
about flourishing during midlife?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
One of the biggest things that comes out of the
research is really having amindset shift.
Rather than this idea again ofdecline that the field talked
about for so many years, insteadhaving this shift to the idea
of flourishing, that it ispossible to have flourishing in
midlife and beyond.
That is something that we cangrasp and figure out how to do
(12:26):
each of us individually.
So that mindset shift is reallykey.
When my so I have threedaughters, when my daughters
were young, you know I wouldhave people talking to me about,
ooh, those teenage years, ha haha, you know, in that fear that
so many people have of thatstage of life with three teenage
(12:49):
daughters.
But even at that point I had aconversation with someone in my
life who was further along thanI was, had teenage daughters at
the time and where they wereheading off to college, and
she's like it doesn't have to bethat way.
It doesn't have to be thishorrible time period where it's
really hard to, you know,interact with these teenage
(13:11):
girls and to be able to getalong with them and all that.
It doesn't have to be that way.
And so I made a mindset shiftat that point and, truly
honestly, the teenage years withour girls have been wonderful,
so many rewarding times, becauseI took that time to shift my
perspective there.
I think that's what we need todo in the midst of these years
(13:35):
as well to really take thatshift in mind, to think about
flourishing and what can I dodifferently to flourish in life?
So positive psychology issomething you know.
some people would call it poppsychology, but there's actually
a lot of research out thererelated to positive psychology,
and that idea that we can growand change is key in this stage
(13:59):
for us.
So, really, looking at what aremy strengths, what do I want to
keep exploring in life, whatare those things I am hopeful
about, while acknowledging thestruggles too.
We don't want to just ignorewhat's going on in life.
We need to prepare, but also berealistic about the struggles
(14:21):
and also figure out what are thestrengths.
How can I grow, how can Icontinue to flourish in life
rather than thinking that I'mjust on this decline, there's no
hope anymore?
That's not the perspective Iwant to take.
I really want to keep movingtowards flourishing throughout
the whole lifespan.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, that's a great point.
I think it can easily be acognitive distortion that we're
on a decline.
We may see gray hairs, we maynot have as much energy, but
it's a distortion because wereally have built up strengths
along the way too.
As you said, it is a struggle,but I think it's important to be
aware of how much balance wehave between focusing on our
(15:03):
strengths versus that decline.
You talked about teenagedaughters.
I just wanted to, since we haveyou as a director of counseling
.
When I encountered some activelistening, carl Rogers types of
ideas really made a hugedifference in my relationship
with teenagers.
Could you just say a little bitabout that?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah, now Rogers is huge within the counseling field
, for sure.
Those skills that Rogersfocused on actually are helpful
in building the therapeuticalliance, building that
relationship so that we canactually do the work to help
someone.
Well, that's the same in anyrelationship we have.
(15:49):
Being able to learn how to useactive listening skills and to
actually display empathy in theway that the person experiences.
It is really key Certainly withteenagers absolutely for them
to feel heard in a way that theyactually value and agree that
(16:13):
yeah, you get me, you understandwhat I'm saying, versus so
often the tendency might be forus to be like oh yeah, I
remember what that was like theteenager, because of their
development and where they're at, they are absolutely like no,
you have no idea what I'm goingthrough.
Being able to instead listenand use skills to be able to
(16:38):
appropriately repeat that whatthey're saying, so they feel
heard, can then supply thatempathy.
That's really key.
Brene Brown's one who talks alot about empathy.
I think that's a great resourcefor people to consider.
She's got some wonderful shortYouTube videos and a whole host
of books and resources out therethat are really helpful.
(17:00):
One of the things I teach mystudents related to empathy is
that it does have to come fromthe perspective of the
individual we're sitting with.
We might think we are the mostempathetic person in the world,
but if that other person doesn'texperience it as empathy,
that's not empathy.
That is really key for us tokeep that perspective of what is
(17:21):
the other person experiencingand how am I going to be able to
listen to them in a way that'sgoing to be helpful for them as
an individual?
We have to do that with eachindividual we interact with, in
life too.
I interact with one of mydaughters is not the same as how
I do with the others.
It's got to shift and change.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
That's right, that's so well said.
Thanks for going with me onthat kind of tangent.
It's just been so powerful forme, interacting with adults and
emerging adults, to have thatbackground from Carl Rogers.
I'd encourage listeners, ifthey're unfamiliar with that, to
continue to look into that more.
It relates to one of the nextareas I wanted to talk about,
(18:06):
which is relationships.
I'm no developmentalpsychologist, but a lot of what
I've seen relating to well-beingin midlife has to do with
relationships.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout that, how they evolve and
how they impact our well-beingduring midlife?
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Again, one of the things with this is just the
awareness that, yes, we all needpeople, but we need people at
different levels and that mightshift through life.
There are sometimes personalitychanges that we might
experience that someone who mayhave really felt, for example,
that they were very introvertedearly on in life might shift to
(18:49):
being someone who actually gainsmore energy being around people
.
Those things can shift andrealizing that might happen with
us is important.
The opposite can happen as well.
Someone who might be furtheralong and the extraversion
spectrum might realize over timethat they really do gain energy
from time alone.
It's okay that we shift inpersonality in certain ways,
(19:12):
like that, realizing we needpeople in some way, but the way,
kyle, you might need people isnot the same as I do.
That we all have differencesthere.
That shifts over time is reallyimportant to realize.
Again, if we're moving towardsthat self-authoring mind idea
and we're understandingourselves better, our values
(19:35):
better, then this might shiftthe people we choose to spend
time with.
This might shift the socialactivities we choose, based on
how we are shifting.
There's also work shifts thatmight happen.
Some people are choosing secondcareers during midlife.
Others are moving towardsretirement or trying to figure
(19:57):
out how am I going to continueto work to sustain what I want
to in life but also still havelife change with not maybe
working quite as much?
There's so many different wayspeople might choose and have to
choose depending on their lifecircumstances.
This shift happens for all ofus and the way we might have
(20:23):
relationships with people canshift as well with this.
Someone who does go from anintense work situation where
they're with people all the timeto retirement where they're
around maybe just theirpartner's spouse, maybe kids at
that really changes forindividuals.
(20:44):
We have to be aware and preparefor that, especially if you're
someone who really Gains thatenergy from being around people
needing to make sure that youhave that still in your life in
some way with relationships.
But if you're thinking aboutthis to like we're changing and
growing and shifting inrelationships During this period
(21:07):
of time, so are the peoplearound us.
That's what we have to realizeas well, and that some
individuals are moving into thisidea of self authoring mind and
shifting and might choose tospend less time with us.
and we have to be, okay withthat and realize that we're all
on our own the developmentaltrajectory and talking about
(21:32):
that, having conversations aboutthat, is a great thing to do to
be able to just be real withthe people in your life as
things are shifting, versus justdropping people or trying to
pull people in more, because youneed more and more.
Just really really having thoseconversations and being aware
of the fact that, yeah, I'mchanging and shifting.
(21:54):
And I would love if we canspend more time together because
I realize that I have this holein my schedule now that I
didn't have before because ofwork or vice versa you know,
there's just all of thosefactors are important to reflect
on and then make sure we'rehaving conversations with the
people in our life about thoserelationships ships.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
That is a great way to look at it and think about it
.
I love that so much.
I know from experience it canbe difficult to cope with these
transitions in a healthy way, socould you talk a little bit
more about healthy ways to adaptto these changes?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
I would say really a way to focus on this is, as I've
alluded to this idea, thatpreparing is is important, that
we are thinking about how can webest Shift in our life and how
that has positive impacts onother people's lives versus
(22:54):
making it harder on them.
So just having that realizationand preparing.
So when I think about shifts, Ioften think about the idea of
curves in roads.
So we have road signs out therefor us the majority of the time
Not always, but the majority oftimes.
So some are curvy roads.
In our family we call themdanger noodles, those signs that
(23:15):
have the curve.
So those danger noodles, likeit tells us OK, I have to do
something different here.
I have to to make some sort ofshift, actually physically in
the car, have to downshift orslow down, hit the break,
(23:35):
anything like that, to be ableto prepare for that next stage.
So having that patience forourselves, realizing that it is
OK that this shift is coming,this, this curve or multiple
curves are coming, and realizeit's OK to slow down, prepare
for it, figure out how we aregoing to navigate, that is
(23:55):
really important Because if wedon't, if one of the road signs
missing because we haven't beenaware or we just don't have that
information to know that thisis possibly a shift that's
coming in life.
For example, if you knowsomeone loses their job in this
stage of life and aren'texpecting it like being able to
(24:20):
stop and figure out, what do Ineed to do now so that we can
manage that that changeeffectively?
So anticipating as much aspossible is really what the
research tells us to do toreally pay attention to what,
what is coming and prepare forthat.
So you know the what ifs ofcaregiving with, with parents,
(24:47):
with possibly grandkids, withlike there's so many different
things there, like justpreparing for that, including
with things like wills,including thinking about
conversations with Our parentsare caregivers if they are still
alive and what is it that theyneed in their stage of life and
anticipating those strugglesrather than Just being like, ok,
(25:11):
it's going to come and I'lldeal with it when it gets here.
It's a lot harder if you haveto hit the brakes quick because
the curve comes up and youweren't expecting it, or it's
such a big curve that you goright over and it's a mess
because because you weren'texpecting it.
So preparing as much aspossible Is really helpful,
(25:31):
including, you know, so manypeople are focused right now on
the idea of OK, well, cognitivedecline is something that
happens.
So what am I going to do tomake sure that that doesn't
happen to the extent that itmight?
So what?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
can I?
Speaker 1 (25:47):
do in life to keep keep as cognitively flexible as
possible and learning andgrowing, rather than just
letting that decline happen.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
That is a great analogy and a great answer that
really spoke to me, amy.
So thank you so much.
During this interview we'vebeen talking about midlife and
it encompasses thinking aboutyour past and we kind of think
about as many years I kind oflike to drill down to kind of
our daily lives.
You know, how can we use sopsychological knowledge from
(26:23):
counseling and developmentalpsychology in our daily lives to
promote flourishing both in theday and long term?
Well, I train counselors.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
so Go counseling.
It's something that can be sohelpful for many of us at
different periods of life.
But when one surprises happen,especially with the curves we're
talking about if a curvesurprises you and you're like I
don't know how to handle this,just having that process of
being able to talk about it withsomeone is going to be helpful
(26:54):
For sure.
So definitely counseling.
You know, seek out someone whocan be helpful in that way.
To have those conversations isa good thing, but also having
we're talking about therelationship to having those
people in your life that you cantrust to be able to process
with and talk through what isgoing on is really key with what
(27:17):
might come our way duringmidlife.
So I think that's one of thebiggest things to realize is
that we don't have to navigatethis alone.
We might be moving towardsunderstanding ourselves
internally better and reallygrasping who we are and what we
value internally.
That doesn't mean we have to doall of this alone.
(27:38):
Bring those people around youin life that that you know you
can rely on and turn to Beforethe curves pop up unexpectedly
and, as we know, the curves thatare going to come.
Just being doing life withpeople that we can Trust and
(28:01):
love to help along the journey,seeking out individuals that we
see, who are further along thanwe are, who we do see as
flourishing, is Something thatis key as well if we're like
okay, well, how do they do it?
Just as simple as that examplethat I had before with my kids
when they were young and talkingwith someone who was
(28:22):
essentially the stage above mewhere she was dealing with the
teenage girls who were movingoff.
You know, heading towardscollege, like realizing that
it's good to have conversationswith those who are Older than us
.
Certainly what we knowLongevity, wise part of what is
really helpful, certainly diet,exercise we know all those
(28:42):
pieces.
But also relationship are keyand it's really important to
realize that those who areFlourishing in older and old,
old adulthood, it's wonderful tobe able to just pick their
brains, talk with them aboutwell.
How, how has this worked for foryou, what's worked for you in
(29:03):
life?
And that doesn't mean it'sgoing to, for sure, apply to us
in our life, but it can justalso provide us that hope that,
yes, we can do this in our ownway, in a way that's going to be
something that works for ourlife, but, yes, we can flourish
presently in this stage of lifeand in future stages as well.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Oh, that is so good and I just want to echo what you
said about counseling to.
I've experienced the power ofthat and I hope everybody out
there can.
If they haven't, they will.
I Don't like to stereotypegenerations really, but people
are age, my age, you know wewere in a little different age
(29:43):
as it relates to mental health,in terms of that stigma or not
seeking help.
What would you say to midliferswho may have grown up with that
stigma?
Do you feel like that is stillkind of the case in midlifers,
and what would you tell them?
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Yeah, certainly, you know, obviously not for everyone
, but certainly that that stillcan be the case, and so that's
where turning to some of thepeople who are younger than us
can be really helpful too, tohave those Conversations with
individuals who are like well,yeah, I go to counseling, of
course.
I do like that my friends dolike having those conversations
(30:21):
and Realizing that, yes, it isokay to ask for help.
That is a perspective shift,that that can be hard for some
individuals, especially ifthey've had this mentality and
this, this thought throughoutlife that no, I can do this
myself, I don't need to reachout to others and and Therapy is
(30:42):
something that's just junk andit's just.
You know, quacks trying to it's.
It's not.
It's actually very, a veryhelpful thing for many
individuals.
It's not for everyone.
But also one of the things thatI think is really important to
realize is that there are a lotof different styles of
counselors who are out.
There are different Trainingand backgrounds.
(31:04):
It's like I train clinicalmental health counselors.
There's also licensed marriageand family therapists.
There's psychologists.
There's, you know, in, a wholeton of different types of
psychologists.
There's many other branches ofhelping professions as well,
more all trained slightlydifferently, yet at the same
time, we can often do very muchthe same work.
(31:27):
So realizing that there's a lotof different options and and
styles for how people willapproach things.
So if you've heard from someonewell, yeah, I tried counseling
and it was awful.
I couldn't stay on the person,whatever One, encourage them to
try again with someone different.
But to just realize thatsometimes it is about finding
(31:48):
someone who's a good fit for you, that it's someone that that
you feel like actually listensto you, that has empathy for you
and is helping you move in thedirection that you want.
We do know from the researchthat counseling is beneficial
and that it is is helpful,especially if there's that
(32:09):
agreement on goals.
So the work that we're going todo in counseling is if we know
that the counselor is Seeing itthe same way and is going to
help us with what we need towork on, what we want to work on
.
That's actually key too.
So really it's another one ofthose mind shift things where,
if we can shift the thoughts wehave about Counseling and
(32:35):
realize that it is beneficialand have conversations with
people who have sought it out,who have found it beneficial,
then that might move us in theright direction.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yeah, I love that answer.
For me, I think it's been kindof a mind shift of I Asking for
help is a sign of strengthrather than trying to do it
yourself.
That's a sign of wisdom andstrength to ask for help.
I Am very thankful that I foundthat perspective.
So, as we come towards the endof this episode, amy, I think
(33:10):
you and I could talk for a fewmore hours here, but could you,
could you give us practicaladvice or techniques from
Developmental psychology thatlisteners can use to make the
most of their midlife journey?
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Sure, sure.
So Let me talk about a fewdifferent things here.
First of all is I've alreadytalked about try to take that
positive outlook, so thepositive psychology perspective
it is possible for us to grow,develop and change.
So, really in that, taking anactive stance on our development
rather than passive this ishappening to me Really being
(33:44):
active in that and realizingthat, yes, we can Influence our
development.
So in that, if you're someonewho Doesn't have a strong handle
on what you value in life,that's a good place to start To
really figure out what are myvalues.
There's lots of great tools todo this.
(34:05):
One of my favorites is actuallycomes out of the motivational
interviewing field.
That is a part of theaddictions world that is used
throughout Many different othermental health professions.
Now as well, they'remotivational.
Interviewingorg has a websiteand you can find the values card
sort on there.
But essentially there's thesefree printouts you can do and
(34:28):
With clients, the way I've usedit in the past, as you print
them out and you have it oncardstock and you have these
stack of cards, it's like, okay,this is not at all important to
me, this is important, this isvery important.
And through that process, beingable to uncover.
Okay, what are the things thatI Value the most in life?
And one of those things thatare just not as important to me,
and Really trying to narrow itdown to like three to five
(34:52):
really key values can be helpfulfor us to understand Just where
we're going in life, what wewant to do with the time we have
in life, for the relationships,with work, with family, all of
those pieces and then Choosingto make changes, to move us
towards those values a littlemore.
(35:13):
I really recommend small,incremental changes.
I think sometimes we want to doit all at once and that is
generally not helpful.
So some practical pieces herefrom different models out there
in the field.
So from behavioral perspective,one of the models that gets
talked about frequently is thecalm be model.
(35:34):
So COM B, so capabilities,opportunities, motivation to
change and then the behavior.
So it's this idea of if we'regoing to choose to make Change,
what do we need to do that withthat?
So we need to have thecapabilities, those actual
opportunities to do it.
But then that motivation forchange is key as well.
(35:55):
And then there's behaviors thatare going to help us move
towards that change.
That motivation to change comesfrom our values.
So we're not going to make achange that doesn't fit for our
values most of the time unlesswe have external pressures.
I also like to add on a model ofthe stages of change model.
(36:19):
Prochaska and DiClementecreated this a number of years
ago.
That is, you again heavily cameout of the addictions world.
This model really grew up withmotivational interviewing.
But there are separate models,but there's there's the stages
here, so people are curiousabout this.
(36:41):
I encourage you to look intothis some more, but there's pre.
Contemplation is the firstplace, and this is where we're
not even considering a change.
Contemplation, though, is whenwe start to think is this
something I want to do?
Is this something that I value?
Is this something that's worthme making a change?
And then, once we have decided,yes, I want to make this change
(37:04):
and we're in this action stage,but again In conjunction with
the ComB model, we need to havethe capabilities and
opportunities to be able tostart making that change.
And then there's maintenance,where we are taking that time to
continue that pattern so itgets ingrained into our life,
and then definitely, somethingthat happens is relapse, where
(37:27):
we return to old patterns.
It happens.
So a change I made in my lifeQuite a number of years ago in
relation to assignment.
I kept having my students dowhere they had to give something
up in class.
When I was teaching them aboutaddictions counseling
specifically, I started doing itmyself as well.
Each time I taught the classI'd give something up.
(37:49):
This news button is what I gaveup, because I read research
about it, realized, yeah, thisis actually harmful, but I
actually, given this was a classthat I did teach each semester
at that period of time, I had togive it up a number of times to
get it to stick.
(38:10):
So I returned to those oldpatterns and then, eventually, I
got to the point where I don'tuse it anymore.
I don't need it.
I see that it's not helpful forme and I don't use it, but
that's.
It's challenging and to realizethat, yes, we, when we're
making changes, we will fallback into old patterns.
So when we're in this stage oflife, we want to think about OK,
(38:33):
what's most beneficial for me?
Where do I want to start?
What do I value?
So, is it something related tomy health that I want to make a
change, with not jumping oneverything automatically?
OK, I'm going to work out.
I'm going to totally change myeating patterns.
I'm going to do this, I'm goingto do that.
Take it slow, one thing at atime, until we have that pattern
well established.
Then add something on.
(38:53):
That's really what I recommendfor really practical things
right now.
As you're thinking about, asyou're listening to this, as
you're thinking about, what arethose practical things I want to
do right now?
Really, what do you value andwhat are those shifts that are
going to help you move moretowards those values?
(39:16):
So if, like family, time withfamily is a huge value and
you're someone in this stage ismoving towards, or maybe has
grandkids, moving towardsgrandkids and wants to have that
longevity, to be able to spendtime with those grandkids for as
long as possible, then what arethose health changes that might
be important in life andwhere's the where's a place you
can start.
That is going to be a smallerstep to really get those
patterns changed.
(39:36):
Sleep is a great place to start.
People don't realize how muchsleep impacts us.
That's a great realm to start,if anyone's curious about sleep.
But there's so many differentlike minor patterns that can
help us shift, that will help usthen see that hope of oh yeah,
I am able to change Old dognutrients.
(40:00):
Absolutely.
There's so many differentthings that we can change.
Yeah, that is so good and sohelpful and I definitely
appreciate you sharing thesnooze example, because it
reminds me of something I heardrecently, that healing and
progress is not linear, and Ilove how you had self-compact.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
You know I'm making progress and you will it's not
linear and have self-compassionand really I think helps that
persistence and long term changeso Absolutely and I'm
definitely I wanted to mentionto.
(40:45):
I'm definitely going to putthose links in the description
so people can find those easilyas well.
Wonderful.
I just want to try one otherquestion with you.
I should have given you a headsup, but are there any other
books or resources or websitesthat you would recommend for
listeners that want to divedeeper into what they've heard
today?
Speaker 1 (41:04):
There's.
You know, there's so manydifferent resources out there.
The biggest thing I would say isyes like start exploring those
pieces that are most interestedTo you of anything that we've
talked about here.
So start exploring, startreally thinking about those
pieces that are most importantto you, for your life, for what
(41:27):
is going to be flourishing foryou.
I would say there is a recentbook that came out just this
year that is really all focusedon midlife and older age and
really that idea of flourishing,fostering development in middle
life and older age and springor publishing 2023.
(41:49):
It's really a nice focus onwhere things are at presently,
with the research encouragementfor more.
I think it's one that that, ifsomeone wants to take a deep
dive into these ideas, that thatcould be a place to start.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Yeah, very cool.
Well, amy, this has beenabsolutely wonderful.
Your enthusiasm and knowledgefor this are just Really
incredible, and I'm sure manylisteners out there are so
thankful for the time that youspent with us, and so, on behalf
of them, and especially formyself, to just thank you so
(42:25):
much for sharing your knowledgeand what you do.
It's been a real pleasuretalking with you on the show
today.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Thank you, kyle.
It's been a privilege beingable to join you for this
podcast.
Glad to be here, Kyle .
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Wonderful.
Could you start by giving ourlisteners some insight in your
background and how you becameinterested in the topics we'll
be exploring today?
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Sure.
So a little backgroundinformation.
I've got a doctorate incounseling psychology from the
University of Wisconsin-Madison.
So I pursued that doctoratebecause through my undergrad and
through my master's I just gotmore and more curious about
things and then wanted to impartknowledge to counselors in
particular.
So my focus at present istraining counselors that with
(00:36):
the program I teach and come ina variety of different
developmental stages.
So we might have students whostart right out of undergrad and
we at times certainly havestudents who start basically
post-retirement.
At times they're like, oh, Iwant to go back and do this.
So we have a broad range ofstudents who come into our
(00:57):
program.
That's just fun and exciting.
But I've been curious aboutdevelopment really since my own
undergraduate degree, with thatwould have been the first time I
was really exposed to the fieldof psychology and when I took
my developmental psychologyclass I was just fascinated.
And since then I just continueto really look into it At times
(01:19):
have taught developmentalpsychology classes or
development at the counselorlevel, so the master's level,
teaching that or how to applythat in the counseling field.
So I just love to continue tostay in it and pay attention to
the details that are out therein the field.
But I digress, I shouldprobably stop babbling about
those things.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Oh no, that was perfect.
You are speaking my languageand you're getting me fired up
for our discussion.
Amy, this is exactly why Istarted this, because I love
talking to people like you andyour interest in this midlife
flourishing and midlife to humandevelopment area is just really
self evident and contagious.
So maybe this is a good chancefor you to talk a little bit
(02:01):
more about your perspective onmidlife, based on your training
in developmental psychology andhuman development.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
So really, kyle, in the past the focus from
developmental psychology in thefield was on decline.
For this stage of life it wasall about what's going wrong in
our bodies, like the fact that Ihave glasses on right now.
I didn't have to wear these twoyears ago and now I have to
when I'm sitting at a computer.
(02:29):
So it's a big challenge, withso many things that do change in
midlife, that the focus was somuch on decline.
I'm really thankful that thefield has really shifted a lot
towards growth at present.
So realizing that developmenthappens across life, not just
when we're infants and childrenand adolescents, but development
(02:52):
is happening throughout andthat can be growth that is
happening as well.
Certainly in developmentthere's losses that occur, but
there's also gains that canoccur.
So that focus is reallysomething that I appreciate in
the field, that even througholder age we can still develop
as well.
(03:13):
The other thing I reallyappreciate about the
developmental psych focus isthat with the different types of
development we might do likehealth development, social
development, emotionaldevelopment.
There's so many differentthings that come into there.
There's a multi-directionalinfluence that happens.
So realizing that is really keythat if we do something to
(03:36):
change our health that canimpact our thinking, so our
cognition, our socialopportunities and abilities,
depending on what our health waslike emotional opportunities,
spiritual, et cetera.
So I think it's just really agreat shift that's happened from
that focus on decline toinstead really the idea of
(03:58):
flourishing.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, I love that and I hear you talking about it
being kind of a web of wellness.
Almost it's not, we're not inall these different areas of
wellness, but they influenceeach other and kind of build
this braided rope of, hopefully,strengths that come together
and help us move forward.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yes, I really like that description.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Oh wonderful, thank you, I think I just came up with
that.
Actually I still look from theliteracy world, but that's the
first time I've used it in thiscontext.
But enough about my ego.
What are some kind ofmilestones or changes that
happen in this midlife time inthis study of developmental
(04:42):
psychology?
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Sure, so I'm gonna focus first on kind of some of
the theorists that really areimpactful within the field.
So most people who have heardabout developmental psychology
or had a course in it at somepoint have probably heard about
Eric Erickson.
So his focus on healthydevelopment I've always
appreciated.
It's one that stands out themost to me from my undergraduate
(05:07):
education when I first startedlearning about development.
Yet it's one that sometimesoften gets forgotten in later
adulthood.
So the stage that reallyapplies to this midlife period
and depending who you ask,midlife could be 40, 45, up
through 65, it really depends onwho you ask before what the
(05:29):
opinion is there, but that broadrange.
Erickson would have talked aboutthe idea of generativity versus
stagnation.
So that might be terminologypeople have heard before.
So in this stage, this psychosocial development is how he
talked about it.
Generativity is really what wewant to aim for, that.
(05:50):
So we want to figure out how wecontribute to society, to our
families, to our friend groups,to wherever we might be involved
in the community church,different social organizations,
so forth.
So figuring out how wecontribute to the world versus a
stagnation.
(06:10):
Really where people mightstruggle with that is that lack
of purpose, not seeing theirplace, not really knowing how
they can contribute.
So Erickson is certainly one aname that comes up that most
people are familiar with.
Another one that not as manypeople are familiar with,
surprisingly, is Robert Keegan,who is out of Harvard from quite
(06:33):
a number of years ago.
But he talked about a stagemodel as well, and in this
midlife stage what is happeningfor a lot of us is we might move
from what he would callsocialized mind to a
self-authoring mind.
So when I came across this itwas really fascinating to me
that really the main differencein these two stages is what's
(06:59):
most important to us, how wetake our view.
So, really, with the socializedmind which the majority of the
population who are adultsprobably are in and stay in,
which is okay but it's thelooking at what's important to
us from an external view, so howothers see us, how we operate
(07:20):
in the world, based on others'views, whereas the
self-authoring mind, then, isthis shift towards how we define
ourselves Rather than externalsources, really figuring out
what do I value, what do Ibelieve, what do I hold is true
for myself.
So I think that's a reallylovely thing to think about here
(07:42):
within this stage too, thatthat's what we want to move
towards, rather than having theworld around us define who we
are, figuring out what we valueand what we hold is true and
figuring out how that fits forus internally rather than that
external view.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Oh yes, I absolutely love that.
I hadn't heard of that theorybefore, but it reminds me of an
idea from existentialpsychotherapy that I heard
recently, and that's the idea ofan existential hero who,
instead of just followingsocietal norms, uses their
internal compass to navigatelife's big questions with a
(08:23):
strong sense of purpose andmorality.
So midlife is a unique timewhen we think about all of these
different areas in terms of ourpsychosocial development, moral
development, determining ourown values and authoring our
lives in that way.
So what are some of the keychallenges that people
(08:43):
experience during midlife thatthese would apply to?
Speaker 1 (08:48):
There can be so many different challenges that we
might encounter, but one that Iwanted to highlight today with
this conversation is the idea ofhappiness that there is in the
research.
It points to this U-curve thathappens in the life, that you
know in the 20s you knowhappiness is really high but
(09:11):
that actually in the 40s itbottoms out.
But then thankfully it can startto go up in the 50s.
So realizing that this happensand it is not universal Not
everyone's going to have thisbottom that happens in the 40s
but realizing that this is partof what might come is helpful.
(09:33):
So there's so many things goingon, Depending on the individual
.
There can be, you know, kids inhigh school.
Like I'm thinking of myselfright now, I've got kids in high
school also, one in college,one heading to college next year
, but there's all of this.
But then I've got aging parentsin in-laws.
There's the busyness that comeswith this stage of life.
(09:55):
Yet there's also in my life alittle more freedom.
That has come because I havekids who can drive.
So this is, it's a very busytime of life.
So just realizing that, yes,that busiest and everything that
comes within the 40s, dependingon what is going on in your
individual life, can reallyimpact how we're doing
(10:19):
psychologically.
So just realizing that we haveto pay attention to that and
honestly acknowledging thatthere is this kind of the term
middle essence is a term that'sused rather than adolescence.
Some people will talk aboutmiddle essence that in this
point of life there are so manytransitions.
(10:40):
So someone who's in their 40s,moving into their 50s, is
thinking about retirement butalso, in some ways, starting to
come to the reality of life'sgoing to end.
So that traditional idea of amidlife crisis that people talk
about, especially in theindustrialized world, is that
(11:02):
these transitions impact us andare ones that can be struggles.
So if we have that awarenessand are paying attention to that
, then we can account for thatin life to be able to manage
those transitions effectively.
We have way more ability atthis stage, compared to the
adolescent time period, to beable to deal with all the
(11:24):
transitions that are coming ourway.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
That's right.
It really all have such uniqueexperiences.
It's hard to you know, talkabout one area across all people
.
Our listeners are in so manyplaces with their kids, their
parents, their jobs, theirmarriages or their partnerships,
and so there's just so muchdiversity to this, the
challenges and the rewards ofthis time of our lives, so
(11:52):
there's no one answer.
But what do we know fromdevelopmental psychology in
terms of factors that we mightwant to focus on as we think
about flourishing during midlife?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
One of the biggest things that comes out of the
research is really having amindset shift.
Rather than this idea again ofdecline that the field talked
about for so many years, insteadhaving this shift to the idea
of flourishing, that it ispossible to have flourishing in
midlife and beyond.
That is something that we cangrasp and figure out how to do
(12:26):
each of us individually.
So that mindset shift is reallykey.
When my so I have threedaughters, when my daughters
were young, you know I wouldhave people talking to me about,
ooh, those teenage years, ha haha, you know, in that fear that
so many people have of thatstage of life with three teenage
(12:49):
daughters.
But even at that point I had aconversation with someone in my
life who was further along thanI was, had teenage daughters at
the time and where they wereheading off to college, and
she's like it doesn't have to bethat way.
It doesn't have to be thishorrible time period where it's
really hard to, you know,interact with these teenage
(13:11):
girls and to be able to getalong with them and all that.
It doesn't have to be that way.
And so I made a mindset shiftat that point and, truly
honestly, the teenage years withour girls have been wonderful,
so many rewarding times, becauseI took that time to shift my
perspective there.
I think that's what we need todo in the midst of these years
(13:35):
as well to really take thatshift in mind, to think about
flourishing and what can I dodifferently to flourish in life?
So positive psychology issomething you know.
some people would call it poppsychology, but there's actually
a lot of research out thererelated to positive psychology,
and that idea that we can growand change is key in this stage
(13:59):
for us.
So, really, looking at what aremy strengths, what do I want to
keep exploring in life, whatare those things I am hopeful
about, while acknowledging thestruggles too.
We don't want to just ignorewhat's going on in life.
We need to prepare, but also berealistic about the struggles
(14:21):
and also figure out what are thestrengths.
How can I grow, how can Icontinue to flourish in life
rather than thinking that I'mjust on this decline, there's no
hope anymore?
That's not the perspective Iwant to take.
I really want to keep movingtowards flourishing throughout
the whole lifespan.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, that's a great point.
I think it can easily be acognitive distortion that we're
on a decline.
We may see gray hairs, we maynot have as much energy, but
it's a distortion because wereally have built up strengths
along the way too.
As you said, it is a struggle,but I think it's important to be
aware of how much balance wehave between focusing on our
(15:03):
strengths versus that decline.
You talked about teenagedaughters.
I just wanted to, since we haveyou as a director of counseling
.
When I encountered some activelistening, carl Rogers types of
ideas really made a hugedifference in my relationship
with teenagers.
Could you just say a little bitabout that?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah, now Rogers is huge within the counseling field
, for sure.
Those skills that Rogersfocused on actually are helpful
in building the therapeuticalliance, building that
relationship so that we canactually do the work to help
someone.
Well, that's the same in anyrelationship we have.
(15:49):
Being able to learn how to useactive listening skills and to
actually display empathy in theway that the person experiences.
It is really key Certainly withteenagers absolutely for them
to feel heard in a way that theyactually value and agree that
(16:13):
yeah, you get me, you understandwhat I'm saying, versus so
often the tendency might be forus to be like oh yeah, I
remember what that was like theteenager, because of their
development and where they're at, they are absolutely like no,
you have no idea what I'm goingthrough.
Being able to instead listenand use skills to be able to
(16:38):
appropriately repeat that whatthey're saying, so they feel
heard, can then supply thatempathy.
That's really key.
Brene Brown's one who talks alot about empathy.
I think that's a great resourcefor people to consider.
She's got some wonderful shortYouTube videos and a whole host
of books and resources out therethat are really helpful.
(17:00):
One of the things I teach mystudents related to empathy is
that it does have to come fromthe perspective of the
individual we're sitting with.
We might think we are the mostempathetic person in the world,
but if that other person doesn'texperience it as empathy,
that's not empathy.
That is really key for us tokeep that perspective of what is
(17:21):
the other person experiencingand how am I going to be able to
listen to them in a way that'sgoing to be helpful for them as
an individual?
We have to do that with eachindividual we interact with, in
life too.
I interact with one of mydaughters is not the same as how
I do with the others.
It's got to shift and change.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
That's right, that's so well said.
Thanks for going with me onthat kind of tangent.
It's just been so powerful forme, interacting with adults and
emerging adults, to have thatbackground from Carl Rogers.
I'd encourage listeners, ifthey're unfamiliar with that, to
continue to look into that more.
It relates to one of the nextareas I wanted to talk about,
(18:06):
which is relationships.
I'm no developmentalpsychologist, but a lot of what
I've seen relating to well-beingin midlife has to do with
relationships.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout that, how they evolve and
how they impact our well-beingduring midlife?
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Again, one of the things with this is just the
awareness that, yes, we all needpeople, but we need people at
different levels and that mightshift through life.
There are sometimes personalitychanges that we might
experience that someone who mayhave really felt, for example,
that they were very introvertedearly on in life might shift to
(18:49):
being someone who actually gainsmore energy being around people
.
Those things can shift andrealizing that might happen with
us is important.
The opposite can happen as well.
Someone who might be furtheralong and the extraversion
spectrum might realize over timethat they really do gain energy
from time alone.
It's okay that we shift inpersonality in certain ways,
(19:12):
like that, realizing we needpeople in some way, but the way,
kyle, you might need people isnot the same as I do.
That we all have differencesthere.
That shifts over time is reallyimportant to realize.
Again, if we're moving towardsthat self-authoring mind idea
and we're understandingourselves better, our values
(19:35):
better, then this might shiftthe people we choose to spend
time with.
This might shift the socialactivities we choose, based on
how we are shifting.
There's also work shifts thatmight happen.
Some people are choosing secondcareers during midlife.
Others are moving towardsretirement or trying to figure
(19:57):
out how am I going to continueto work to sustain what I want
to in life but also still havelife change with not maybe
working quite as much?
There's so many different wayspeople might choose and have to
choose depending on their lifecircumstances.
This shift happens for all ofus and the way we might have
(20:23):
relationships with people canshift as well with this.
Someone who does go from anintense work situation where
they're with people all the timeto retirement where they're
around maybe just theirpartner's spouse, maybe kids at
that really changes forindividuals.
(20:44):
We have to be aware and preparefor that, especially if you're
someone who really Gains thatenergy from being around people
needing to make sure that youhave that still in your life in
some way with relationships.
But if you're thinking aboutthis to like we're changing and
growing and shifting inrelationships During this period
(21:07):
of time, so are the peoplearound us.
That's what we have to realizeas well, and that some
individuals are moving into thisidea of self authoring mind and
shifting and might choose tospend less time with us.
and we have to be, okay withthat and realize that we're all
on our own the developmentaltrajectory and talking about
(21:32):
that, having conversations aboutthat, is a great thing to do to
be able to just be real withthe people in your life as
things are shifting, versus justdropping people or trying to
pull people in more, because youneed more and more.
Just really really having thoseconversations and being aware
of the fact that, yeah, I'mchanging and shifting.
(21:54):
And I would love if we canspend more time together because
I realize that I have this holein my schedule now that I
didn't have before because ofwork or vice versa you know,
there's just all of thosefactors are important to reflect
on and then make sure we'rehaving conversations with the
people in our life about thoserelationships ships.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
That is a great way to look at it and think about it
.
I love that so much.
I know from experience it canbe difficult to cope with these
transitions in a healthy way, socould you talk a little bit
more about healthy ways to adaptto these changes?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
I would say really a way to focus on this is, as I've
alluded to this idea, thatpreparing is is important, that
we are thinking about how can webest Shift in our life and how
that has positive impacts onother people's lives versus
(22:54):
making it harder on them.
So just having that realizationand preparing.
So when I think about shifts, Ioften think about the idea of
curves in roads.
So we have road signs out therefor us the majority of the time
Not always, but the majority oftimes.
So some are curvy roads.
In our family we call themdanger noodles, those signs that
(23:15):
have the curve.
So those danger noodles, likeit tells us OK, I have to do
something different here.
I have to to make some sort ofshift, actually physically in
the car, have to downshift orslow down, hit the break,
(23:35):
anything like that, to be ableto prepare for that next stage.
So having that patience forourselves, realizing that it is
OK that this shift is coming,this, this curve or multiple
curves are coming, and realizeit's OK to slow down, prepare
for it, figure out how we aregoing to navigate, that is
(23:55):
really important Because if wedon't, if one of the road signs
missing because we haven't beenaware or we just don't have that
information to know that thisis possibly a shift that's
coming in life.
For example, if you knowsomeone loses their job in this
stage of life and aren'texpecting it like being able to
(24:20):
stop and figure out, what do Ineed to do now so that we can
manage that that changeeffectively?
So anticipating as much aspossible is really what the
research tells us to do toreally pay attention to what,
what is coming and prepare forthat.
So you know the what ifs ofcaregiving with, with parents,
(24:47):
with possibly grandkids, withlike there's so many different
things there, like justpreparing for that, including
with things like wills,including thinking about
conversations with Our parentsare caregivers if they are still
alive and what is it that theyneed in their stage of life and
anticipating those strugglesrather than Just being like, ok,
(25:11):
it's going to come and I'lldeal with it when it gets here.
It's a lot harder if you haveto hit the brakes quick because
the curve comes up and youweren't expecting it, or it's
such a big curve that you goright over and it's a mess
because because you weren'texpecting it.
So preparing as much aspossible Is really helpful,
(25:31):
including, you know, so manypeople are focused right now on
the idea of OK, well, cognitivedecline is something that
happens.
So what am I going to do tomake sure that that doesn't
happen to the extent that itmight?
So what?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
can I?
Speaker 1 (25:47):
do in life to keep keep as cognitively flexible as
possible and learning andgrowing, rather than just
letting that decline happen.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
That is a great analogy and a great answer that
really spoke to me, amy.
So thank you so much.
During this interview we'vebeen talking about midlife and
it encompasses thinking aboutyour past and we kind of think
about as many years I kind oflike to drill down to kind of
our daily lives.
You know, how can we use sopsychological knowledge from
(26:23):
counseling and developmentalpsychology in our daily lives to
promote flourishing both in theday and long term?
Well, I train counselors.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
so Go counseling.
It's something that can be sohelpful for many of us at
different periods of life.
But when one surprises happen,especially with the curves we're
talking about if a curvesurprises you and you're like I
don't know how to handle this,just having that process of
being able to talk about it withsomeone is going to be helpful
(26:54):
For sure.
So definitely counseling.
You know, seek out someone whocan be helpful in that way.
To have those conversations isa good thing, but also having
we're talking about therelationship to having those
people in your life that you cantrust to be able to process
with and talk through what isgoing on is really key with what
(27:17):
might come our way duringmidlife.
So I think that's one of thebiggest things to realize is
that we don't have to navigatethis alone.
We might be moving towardsunderstanding ourselves
internally better and reallygrasping who we are and what we
value internally.
That doesn't mean we have to doall of this alone.
(27:38):
Bring those people around youin life that that you know you
can rely on and turn to Beforethe curves pop up unexpectedly
and, as we know, the curves thatare going to come.
Just being doing life withpeople that we can Trust and
(28:01):
love to help along the journey,seeking out individuals that we
see, who are further along thanwe are, who we do see as
flourishing, is Something thatis key as well if we're like
okay, well, how do they do it?
Just as simple as that examplethat I had before with my kids
when they were young and talkingwith someone who was
(28:22):
essentially the stage above mewhere she was dealing with the
teenage girls who were movingoff.
You know, heading towardscollege, like realizing that
it's good to have conversationswith those who are Older than us
.
Certainly what we knowLongevity, wise part of what is
really helpful, certainly diet,exercise we know all those
(28:42):
pieces.
But also relationship are keyand it's really important to
realize that those who areFlourishing in older and old,
old adulthood, it's wonderful tobe able to just pick their
brains, talk with them aboutwell.
How, how has this worked for foryou, what's worked for you in
(29:03):
life?
And that doesn't mean it'sgoing to, for sure, apply to us
in our life, but it can justalso provide us that hope that,
yes, we can do this in our ownway, in a way that's going to be
something that works for ourlife, but, yes, we can flourish
presently in this stage of lifeand in future stages as well.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Oh, that is so good and I just want to echo what you
said about counseling to.
I've experienced the power ofthat and I hope everybody out
there can.
If they haven't, they will.
I Don't like to stereotypegenerations really, but people
are age, my age, you know wewere in a little different age
(29:43):
as it relates to mental health,in terms of that stigma or not
seeking help.
What would you say to midliferswho may have grown up with that
stigma?
Do you feel like that is stillkind of the case in midlifers,
and what would you tell them?
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Yeah, certainly, you know, obviously not for everyone
, but certainly that that stillcan be the case, and so that's
where turning to some of thepeople who are younger than us
can be really helpful too, tohave those Conversations with
individuals who are like well,yeah, I go to counseling, of
course.
I do like that my friends dolike having those conversations
(30:21):
and Realizing that, yes, it isokay to ask for help.
That is a perspective shift,that that can be hard for some
individuals, especially ifthey've had this mentality and
this, this thought throughoutlife that no, I can do this
myself, I don't need to reachout to others and and Therapy is
(30:42):
something that's just junk andit's just.
You know, quacks trying to it's.
It's not.
It's actually very, a veryhelpful thing for many
individuals.
It's not for everyone.
But also one of the things thatI think is really important to
realize is that there are a lotof different styles of
counselors who are out.
There are different Trainingand backgrounds.
(31:04):
It's like I train clinicalmental health counselors.
There's also licensed marriageand family therapists.
There's psychologists.
There's, you know, in, a wholeton of different types of
psychologists.
There's many other branches ofhelping professions as well,
more all trained slightlydifferently, yet at the same
time, we can often do very muchthe same work.
(31:27):
So realizing that there's a lotof different options and and
styles for how people willapproach things.
So if you've heard from someonewell, yeah, I tried counseling
and it was awful.
I couldn't stay on the person,whatever One, encourage them to
try again with someone different.
But to just realize thatsometimes it is about finding
(31:48):
someone who's a good fit for you, that it's someone that that
you feel like actually listensto you, that has empathy for you
and is helping you move in thedirection that you want.
We do know from the researchthat counseling is beneficial
and that it is is helpful,especially if there's that
(32:09):
agreement on goals.
So the work that we're going todo in counseling is if we know
that the counselor is Seeing itthe same way and is going to
help us with what we need towork on, what we want to work on
.
That's actually key too.
So really it's another one ofthose mind shift things where,
if we can shift the thoughts wehave about Counseling and
(32:35):
realize that it is beneficialand have conversations with
people who have sought it out,who have found it beneficial,
then that might move us in theright direction.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yeah, I love that answer.
For me, I think it's been kindof a mind shift of I Asking for
help is a sign of strengthrather than trying to do it
yourself.
That's a sign of wisdom andstrength to ask for help.
I Am very thankful that I foundthat perspective.
So, as we come towards the endof this episode, amy, I think
(33:10):
you and I could talk for a fewmore hours here, but could you,
could you give us practicaladvice or techniques from
Developmental psychology thatlisteners can use to make the
most of their midlife journey?
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Sure, sure.
So Let me talk about a fewdifferent things here.
First of all is I've alreadytalked about try to take that
positive outlook, so thepositive psychology perspective
it is possible for us to grow,develop and change.
So, really in that, taking anactive stance on our development
rather than passive this ishappening to me Really being
(33:44):
active in that and realizingthat, yes, we can Influence our
development.
So in that, if you're someonewho Doesn't have a strong handle
on what you value in life,that's a good place to start To
really figure out what are myvalues.
There's lots of great tools todo this.
(34:05):
One of my favorites is actuallycomes out of the motivational
interviewing field.
That is a part of theaddictions world that is used
throughout Many different othermental health professions.
Now as well, they'remotivational.
Interviewingorg has a websiteand you can find the values card
sort on there.
But essentially there's thesefree printouts you can do and
(34:28):
With clients, the way I've usedit in the past, as you print
them out and you have it oncardstock and you have these
stack of cards, it's like, okay,this is not at all important to
me, this is important, this isvery important.
And through that process, beingable to uncover.
Okay, what are the things thatI Value the most in life?
And one of those things thatare just not as important to me,
and Really trying to narrow itdown to like three to five
(34:52):
really key values can be helpfulfor us to understand Just where
we're going in life, what wewant to do with the time we have
in life, for the relationships,with work, with family, all of
those pieces and then Choosingto make changes, to move us
towards those values a littlemore.
(35:13):
I really recommend small,incremental changes.
I think sometimes we want to doit all at once and that is
generally not helpful.
So some practical pieces herefrom different models out there
in the field.
So from behavioral perspective,one of the models that gets
talked about frequently is thecalm be model.
(35:34):
So COM B, so capabilities,opportunities, motivation to
change and then the behavior.
So it's this idea of if we'regoing to choose to make Change,
what do we need to do that withthat?
So we need to have thecapabilities, those actual
opportunities to do it.
But then that motivation forchange is key as well.
(35:55):
And then there's behaviors thatare going to help us move
towards that change.
That motivation to change comesfrom our values.
So we're not going to make achange that doesn't fit for our
values most of the time unlesswe have external pressures.
I also like to add on a model ofthe stages of change model.
(36:19):
Prochaska and DiClementecreated this a number of years
ago.
That is, you again heavily cameout of the addictions world.
This model really grew up withmotivational interviewing.
But there are separate models,but there's there's the stages
here, so people are curiousabout this.
(36:41):
I encourage you to look intothis some more, but there's pre.
Contemplation is the firstplace, and this is where we're
not even considering a change.
Contemplation, though, is whenwe start to think is this
something I want to do?
Is this something that I value?
Is this something that's worthme making a change?
And then, once we have decided,yes, I want to make this change
(37:04):
and we're in this action stage,but again In conjunction with
the ComB model, we need to havethe capabilities and
opportunities to be able tostart making that change.
And then there's maintenance,where we are taking that time to
continue that pattern so itgets ingrained into our life,
and then definitely, somethingthat happens is relapse, where
(37:27):
we return to old patterns.
It happens.
So a change I made in my lifeQuite a number of years ago in
relation to assignment.
I kept having my students dowhere they had to give something
up in class.
When I was teaching them aboutaddictions counseling
specifically, I started doing itmyself as well.
Each time I taught the classI'd give something up.
(37:49):
This news button is what I gaveup, because I read research
about it, realized, yeah, thisis actually harmful, but I
actually, given this was a classthat I did teach each semester
at that period of time, I had togive it up a number of times to
get it to stick.
(38:10):
So I returned to those oldpatterns and then, eventually, I
got to the point where I don'tuse it anymore.
I don't need it.
I see that it's not helpful forme and I don't use it, but
that's.
It's challenging and to realizethat, yes, we, when we're
making changes, we will fallback into old patterns.
So when we're in this stage oflife, we want to think about OK,
(38:33):
what's most beneficial for me?
Where do I want to start?
What do I value?
So, is it something related tomy health that I want to make a
change, with not jumping oneverything automatically?
OK, I'm going to work out.
I'm going to totally change myeating patterns.
I'm going to do this, I'm goingto do that.
Take it slow, one thing at atime, until we have that pattern
well established.
Then add something on.
(38:53):
That's really what I recommendfor really practical things
right now.
As you're thinking about, asyou're listening to this, as
you're thinking about, what arethose practical things I want to
do right now?
Really, what do you value andwhat are those shifts that are
going to help you move moretowards those values?
(39:16):
So if, like family, time withfamily is a huge value and
you're someone in this stage ismoving towards, or maybe has
grandkids, moving towardsgrandkids and wants to have that
longevity, to be able to spendtime with those grandkids for as
long as possible, then what arethose health changes that might
be important in life andwhere's the where's a place you
can start.
That is going to be a smallerstep to really get those
patterns changed.
(39:36):
Sleep is a great place to start.
People don't realize how muchsleep impacts us.
That's a great realm to start,if anyone's curious about sleep.
But there's so many differentlike minor patterns that can
help us shift, that will help usthen see that hope of oh yeah,
I am able to change Old dognutrients.
(40:00):
Absolutely.
There's so many differentthings that we can change.
Yeah, that is so good and sohelpful and I definitely
appreciate you sharing thesnooze example, because it
reminds me of something I heardrecently, that healing and
progress is not linear, and Ilove how you had self-compact.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
You know I'm making progress and you will it's not
linear and have self-compassionand really I think helps that
persistence and long term changeso Absolutely and I'm
definitely I wanted to mentionto.
(40:45):
I'm definitely going to putthose links in the description
so people can find those easilyas well.
Wonderful.
I just want to try one otherquestion with you.
I should have given you a headsup, but are there any other
books or resources or websitesthat you would recommend for
listeners that want to divedeeper into what they've heard
today?
Speaker 1 (41:04):
There's.
You know, there's so manydifferent resources out there.
The biggest thing I would say isyes like start exploring those
pieces that are most interestedTo you of anything that we've
talked about here.
So start exploring, startreally thinking about those
pieces that are most importantto you, for your life, for what
(41:27):
is going to be flourishing foryou.
I would say there is a recentbook that came out just this
year that is really all focusedon midlife and older age and
really that idea of flourishing,fostering development in middle
life and older age and springor publishing 2023.
(41:49):
It's really a nice focus onwhere things are at presently,
with the research encouragementfor more.
I think it's one that that, ifsomeone wants to take a deep
dive into these ideas, that thatcould be a place to start.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Yeah, very cool.
Well, amy, this has beenabsolutely wonderful.
Your enthusiasm and knowledgefor this are just Really
incredible, and I'm sure manylisteners out there are so
thankful for the time that youspent with us, and so, on behalf
of them, and especially formyself, to just thank you so
(42:25):
much for sharing your knowledgeand what you do.
It's been a real pleasuretalking with you on the show
today.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Thank you, kyle.
It's been a privilege beingable to join you for this
podcast.
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