October 6, 2023 • 51 mins
In this episode, we explore the enlightening world of intuitive eating with our guests Dr. Sara Styles and her Ph.D. student, Hannah Martin, both advocates for transforming our relationship with food. Together, we explore the principles of intuitive eating and acceptance and commitment therapy, emphasizing their relevance, especially for people in midlife. We discuss the importance of self-compassion, mindfulness, and unconditional permission to eat in fostering a healthier connection with food. We also explore the connection between intuitive eating and self-determination theory, focusing on the role of personal values and motivation on this midlife journey.
Join us for a conversation filled with practical advice, and insights into mindful eating, as we journey towards understanding and honoring our body’s needs, beyond the size of our waist.
Resources from our conversation:
Recommended Books from the Podcast:
Intuitive Eating, by Evelyn Triboli and Elyse Resch:
Intuitive Eating Book (Amazon)
Ten Principles for Nourishing a Healthy Relationship With Food (Amazon)
An example article from Dr. Styles:
https://www.researchprotocols.org/2016/4/e180/
Evelyn Tribole Social Media:
https://www.instagram.com/evelyntribole/
https://www.youtube.com/@etribole/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So I'm going to start here and say welcome to the
show Hannah and Sarah.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Well, thanks for letting us join you.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Yeah, as we've been discussing.
I'm thrilled.
Sarah, could you start off byjust giving our listeners some
insight into your background andhow you got interested in the
topics we'll be exploring today?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Yeah, so the topic that we're talking about with
intuitive eating and acceptanceand commitment therapy, there's
this academic path that I'vebeen on and, starting with the
personal side, I recall beingback in high school when one of
the thoughts I had to myself wasI can do everything but lose
weight.
I was a strong athlete, strongacademically, had a job, was
(00:42):
involved in extracurriculars,and for me it was really
frustrating that I wasn't smalllike the other girls and for me
as a senior in high school I wasa little bit more like a senior
in high school.
It was on my mind quite a bitbecause I come from a family of
people with larger bodies.
We have a strong family historyof diabetes and cardiovascular
(01:06):
disease and I had a swim coachsay you know, if you lost a few
pounds, you might be a littlebit faster and going through all
the different unhelpful,maladaptive eating behaviors a
teenager does.
I found myself later on beingin a class for my master's
(01:27):
degree in nutrition and that'swhen I was introduced to
intuitive eating and for me tolearn about an approach where
our body has its own wisdom totell us what to eat, when to eat
, how much to eat, and weight isa side effect of that you can
still be healthy and still havea higher than recommended body
(01:50):
mass index.
I thought was really reallyvaluable.
So, continuing on the personalstory to all of this, I've been
an intuitive eater through lotsof different phases of my life.
So I was in my early twentieswhen I found out about intuitive
(02:10):
eating and at the time I wasgetting ready for a wedding and
I thought I'll listen to my bodyfor what to eat, when to eat,
how much to eat.
But actually it was definitelya learning process.
At first.
I explained to Hannah beforethat for me it was kind of a eat
when hungry kind of diet, andthat's not what intuitive eating
is.
I let myself eat all the thingswhenever I wanted to, but I was
(02:34):
eating to the point ofsatisfaction.
I always felt like I wasn'tcompletely satisfied.
All the corners of my stomachdidn't feel like they were
touched with food and I didn'treally love that feeling.
But later on, as I got used tolistening to my body, I was like
I mentioned.
I was an athlete in high schooland even after high school I
(02:56):
got into a triathlon and Iworked my way up to an Ironman
distance and that is a longevent.
You spend months and months.
For me, it took four years toget up to that point and to
prepare for a day that took me14 hours of swimming, 2.4 miles,
and cycling 100 and 112 miles,I think.
(03:17):
And then doing a marathon afterthat.
I had to really get in tunewith how does my body feel and
my hydrated?
Do I have enough fuel for rightnow and do I?
have enough fuel for 10 minutesfrom now?
And do I have enough fuel foran hour from now?
And then later on, I was anintuitive eater through my
pregnancy with my son, andthat's a really unique time in a
(03:41):
woman's life where your body isgoing through these changes.
You have health professionalstrying to help you keep yourself
healthy, try to keep your babyhealthy, and I distinctly
remember a day where I wasbalancing a tub of ice cream on
my baby bump and just thinkinglike I want to eat the whole
(04:02):
thing, but it, but I have thisurge to eat the whole thing, but
is that really?
Is that really what I want todo right now?
So, I take a spoonful of icecream, enjoy it, notice the
taste, notice the texture,notice the temperature, and I
would just have this messageinside me saying I want another,
(04:22):
another bite of ice cream.
And I did keep going and I atemost of the ice cream, but I
didn't have that guilt or shamealong with it because my that
was one time in nine monthswhere I sat down and ate all the
ice cream.
Yeah, and then the final stage.
Well, it's not as final stage,I'm still going with it but, the
(04:43):
final important part of thisstory has been the last four
years, with me having chronicfatigue syndrome.
So four years ago I got sickwith a virus and I'm still
recovering from that and it'saffected me cognitively.
I have had days where I cannotfollow I could not follow a
recipe.
It would give me a really badheadache and I wouldn't be able
(05:06):
to think clearly for hours.
And I would try to stand up andchop vegetables and stir them
in the pot and I didn't have thephysical capacity for doing
that.
And there were days where abowl of cereal was was it that?
That was what was all I could,all I had energy for?
(05:28):
Or there was days wherescrambled eggs that was all I
had energy for.
But with intuitive eating I wasbalancing, making sure my body
was fueled with what my body wascapable of doing.
So I found that intuitiveeating through all these
different phases of my life hasbeen really valuable and over
(05:49):
the past 10, it's longer than 10years, now almost 15 years I've
been researching intuitiveeating because I found.
Personally, it was reallyimportant to me.
But what is the evidence for itand can I, can I contribute to
that evidence and I?
Speaker 1 (06:06):
I have been yes, you hit on so many notes there that
just you know.
That's one of the reasons why Ireally wanted to have you two
on this show, because it reallyis a healthier, psychologically
way to approach you know yourbody approach food because, in
part because of you, Sarah,there is emerging, there's
(06:26):
evidence for it, you know it's,it seems like there's.
It's becoming more popular, butthat's, I think, because there
is evidence for it and let's see, without cussing holy cow,
Sarah, those are some realchallenging situations to do
intuitive eating that you'rediscussing.
You need a lot of fuel for thetriathlon.
You need you had stress andyou're caring for somebody else
(06:47):
through your baby and being acoming, a mother, and then also
with chronic fatigue.
Those are really challengingsituations.
So I appreciate so much thatyou can speak to all of those.
So let's dive deeper into that.
I have to admit this is one ofmy first encounters with
intuitive eating and I'm sureit's not going to be the last.
So can we go a little deeperinto that in terms of what
(07:09):
intuitive eating is and some ofthe core principles of it?
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Absolutely With intuitive eating.
I'll base what I share on theintuitive eating books by Evelyn
Treboly and Elise Rush, so thatthose came out maybe about 20
years ago Hannah can correct meon some of this and so they're
American dietitians, and thebook is based on 10 principles,
(07:37):
and I find for a podcast it'sprobably simpler not to think of
the 10 principles of intuitiveeating, but look at how we
measure intuitive eating in aresearch context, using Tracy
Tilka's intuitive eating scale.
So those 10 principles arecombined into four key
(08:01):
components, and one of thecomponents is eating for
physical rather than emotional,eating for physical rather than
emotional reasons, and we havereliance on hunger and satiety
cues.
So eating based on when thatgnawing in your stomach is
(08:23):
starting to show up or when younotice that your concentration
is starting to fade things likethat rather than.
I'm tired, I'm lonely, I'm bored, I'm sad.
So using not eating in responseto those feelings.
So we have unconditionalpermission to eat, which is
(08:46):
really tricky for people tothink about and actually do.
So unconditional permission toeat is allowing yourself to eat
what you want, when you want,how much you want, and so it's
not having rules like I can onlyeat between 12 pm and 8 pm.
(09:10):
It's if I'm feeling hungry, Ilove myself eat and it is.
If I feel like eating a salad,that's what I'm eating, and it's
not because a diet is tellingme to do that.
It's because that's what mybody is telling me is going to
help me function well, as wellas the things like the cakes,
the brownies, the pastries.
(09:31):
Those are okay because thoseare pleasurable to eat and that
might be what we need right thenand there.
Or there is a social occasionand that's what we're having.
So, yeah, and laying ourselves,eat enough to feel satisfied.
So, thinking about what worksfor me in this moment,
(09:53):
regardless of what I had earlierin the day.
So we're not punishingourselves if we're feeling
hungry now, but thinking, oh, Iate too much earlier.
But there is a degree of beingpractical with intuitive eating.
So if I know I'm going to havea meeting and it just I know I'm
going to get hungry during theeating, it's okay to have a
(10:15):
little bit of fuel now so that Idon't get angry during the
meeting.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Right yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
The last component is body food choice congruence,
and that is listening to yourbody and choosing foods that
help your body function well.
But there's also this gentlenutrition component, where you
can inform what you eat based ondietary guidelines, but using
them flexibly and not using themlike rules that you have to
(10:45):
follow.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, oh, my gosh, that's mind blowing already, and
we're only what a few minutesinto this, so I really like that
.
This is a mind shift for me.
I hear you saying we're kind oflike scientists with our body,
like what we know works, we keepdoing.
We're being reflective aboutwhat we're eating and then using
that moving forward.
That is so cool.
(11:07):
You know, this podcast isfocused on midlife and midlifers
and the reason that you got myattention was because you
published you used.
One of the reasons is youpublished a really interesting
study on using intuitive eatingwith midlife women, so could you
talk a little bit more abouthow intuitive eating relates to
(11:28):
midlife?
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah, it relates to.
At midlife, we're either goingthrough a lot of different
things we might still be havingbabies or raising children and
taking care of parents andbalancing a job and our body is
changing.
It's not the way it was back inhigh school.
We have a bit more of a tensionaround what is our health going
(11:55):
to look like in the future.
You might see people morelikely to have the doctor say
are you looking like you mighthave pre-diabetes, for example?
We are, relationships with ourpartners might be changing and
we might be thinking about am Ias attractive to my partner as I
(12:15):
used to be?
Those are the things that cometo mind about midlife.
They're relevant in your 20sand later.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
It's popped up as important issues to our study
participants.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
For sure.
We're going through so manychanges in body and energy and
our responsibilities, so fuelingour bodies for all those
responsibilities and maintaininghealth as we age is really
important.
I'm sure there's a bigcomponent of self-compassion and
mindfulness.
I'd just like to hear how thatfits within your research and
(12:52):
what you'd say to our listenersabout that.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah, so the mindfulness front.
In order to be able to fuel ourbody in a way that it wants to
be fueled, we have to be able tonotice am I hungry right now?
So taking those pausesthroughout the day to notice
what am I feeling in my head orin my throat or in my stomach,
(13:17):
and being able to label that ina way that works for us, so that
helps you be able to identifythis feeling is hunger rather
than this feeling is boredom.
And then that awareness duringthat snack or during that meal
(13:38):
so being aware of the taste, thetexture, the food and how our
stomach is feeling is more ofthat goes into our stomach to
help us notice when would be thelast bite threshold, which
Evelyn and I at least talk aboutin their book in the last bite
threshold is when you realizethat that could be the last bite
of your food that you're goingto have for that eating occasion
(14:02):
.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Definitely, and you really went in depth with some
midlife women and they had somechallenges and they had some
changes.
Could you talk just a littlebit about challenges that people
might be facing as they try toincorporate intuitive eating and
what you might say to that?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah, so some of the challenges, a big one,
particularly for women who havea long history of dieting
because, keep in mind, with theresearch that I've done, there
have been women who starteddieting when they were nine
years old or when they were intheir early teens, so they have
a very long history ofrestricting what they eat and
(14:40):
how much they eat, and so when Iam there or when they are,
we're on the website that wecreated for the intuitive eating
intervention.
To be told it's okay to eat whatyou want was scary.
That was a huge challenge thatpeople felt scared to trust
(15:02):
their body because they thoughtif I open up a package of Oreos,
I'm going to eat the wholething.
Or if I do open that tub of icecream, I am going to eat the
whole thing.
And that's quite scary forpeople because they label that
as something that's bad.
If they do do that, and what doyou do?
What do you do If somebody hasthat fear that they're going to
(15:26):
binge eat?
That's a big concern.
People, women in particularword that they're going to binge
eat.
And then that's when I wouldsay well, these are your
thoughts, that your mind istelling you that you are going
to binge eat if you let yourselfopen up the Oreos.
Just be open to seeing what'sgoing to happen, have that
(15:48):
curiosity about what you'll dowith the food.
And if you do eat the wholesleeve of Oreos, do it
intentionally, not in a way thatyou're going to feel guilty or
shameful about, but enjoy thefucking Oreos.
I don't know if I'm allowed toswear, but you are.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
In fact, I'll probably make a t-shirt of that
in a mug and send it to you.
You can definitely say thatthis is an adult show, so bring
it on, Tara.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
I think just owning up to what you're doing helps
people either break that cycle,that diet cycle that they can
get into where somebody's beenreally restrictive, and then
they fall off the wagon, havethe forbidden food, feel really
bad about it for a while andthen get back on the diet cycle.
(16:39):
So if you just say this iswhat's going to work, for me
right now is leaving the sleeveof.
Oreos just going for it.
So it's okay to be scared ofwhat will happen, especially if
you've been dieting for a longtime.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
You know, that resonates with me a lot.
It's been really interestingdoing this podcast because,
especially for me as a midlifer,I am reframing my life in terms
of yeah, you know, I used to dothat, but now I'm wiser and I'm
more intentional about my path,that I want to move forward.
You know, and it's not like adenying reality, it's about
(17:16):
confronting yeah, you know, Ihave eaten that whole piece of
fucking Oreos.
That doesn't mean that's howthis is going to be moving
forward, and I think that's areally cool way to look at that.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Yeah, because you are it's unlikely that you would
keep eating a food like that allthe time, because your body is
going to tell you actuallyeating a bunch of those,
whatever it is, will stick with.
The Oreos might have made mefeel really yucky, and so the
next time that I'm having theurge to go and do that, then
(17:50):
I've had that past experienceand it's been an opportunity to
learn that in the future.
Maybe, maybe I will stop alittle bit sooner.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
And that's a big part of it too is having self
compassion for yourself, youknow, and being aware and
learning and growing, and that'sanother reason I'm just so
excited to share this withpeople.
Hannah, I'm thrilled you'rewith us here too.
You've been taking aninteresting angle on it as well,
so could you give us a littlepersonal background and then
(18:21):
talk about your angle?
You've been putting on this interms of self determination
theory.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Thank you for having me on the podcast.
So, like Sarah, I guess, when Iwas younger, going through
college, I had the similar bodyimage issues and maladaptive
eating behaviors that a lot ofteenage girls in particular go
through and.
I think that really probablydrove my interest in studying
(18:51):
nutrition.
So probably not the healthiestway to enter the profession, but
it's okay.
Unfortunately, I think that's alot of the reason why a lot of
people do enter it.
So studies undergraduatenutrition, then went on to doing
(19:12):
my maths as a dietetics and itwasn't until the last six months
of my masters where I found outabout intuitive eating and I
thought so.
We were essentially given theseresearch topics to work on, and
my one was on intuitive eatingand self determination theory.
(19:33):
So that's when I was introducedto those topics, and it must
have been like a month or twointo writing my thesis and I
thought, you know what?
It would probably be a goodidea for me to actually read
this book that I keep referringto.
So I read it and I was like man, I had such a revelation.
(19:54):
The book really resonated withme and I guess you know I had
always been interested in thepsychology of eating.
You know that's kind of thereason why I had gone into
nutrition, because I wanted tofigure out why I eat the way I
do.
And yeah, it was kind of when Iread that book that I don't
know so many things kind ofclicked into place and I thought
(20:16):
oh, I finally get it.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
It was a little unfortunate that it happened
like six months, you know thelast six months of my degree but
that's okay.
I got there in the end and sothen it was really cool.
I went on to working as adietitian for a wee bit, and
particularly as a communitydietitian I was able to
introduce people to the conceptsof intuitive eating and, just
(20:44):
like Sarah was saying before, Idid have a lot of midlife.
People referred to thedietitian service and so many
people would often say, like Idon't buy chocolate because I'm
scared that I'm just going toeat the whole packet.
(21:05):
And it was really cool to beable to bring in these ideas of
intuitive eating and kind of youknow, talking through, like
maybe the reason why you feellike you're going to eat the
whole packet is because you'refeeling that sense of
deprivation because you're notallowing yourself to have the
chocolate.
So yes.
Yeah, it was really a reallycool experience bringing in
(21:26):
those ideas of intuitive eatingin my practice.
And then and then now I am backdoing my PhD because I loved
intuitive eating so much.
So again I'm looking atintuitive eating from a self
determination theory perspective.
So that is really, that is atheory of motivation, so it's
(21:47):
looking at the reasons whypeople might be wanting to eat
intuitively.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Just curious, which book didyou read?
I know you read many books now,but was it the same one Sarah
reference, or what book?
Speaker 3 (22:03):
was it?
Yes, yes, the same one, sarahreference.
So the intuitive eating, theintuitive eating book, the one
with the 10 principles ofintuitive eating, and I think it
was first published in 1995.
So there's four editions outnow, but I think I must have
read one of the first editions.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Yeah, yeah, cool.
So this is Hannah.
As we discussed before the show, I'm a big fan of
self-deterreditation theory andI'm aு.
Could you tell us a little bitabout the core components of
self-determination theory andhow it relates to this topic of
intuitive eating?
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Like I was saying,self-determination theory is a
theory of motivation.
So you might think of yourselfas having high levels of
motivation or low levels ofmotivation to do something.
But self-determination theoryalso distinguishes between
different qualities ofmotivation.
So basically there's sixdifferent qualities, but they
(23:03):
kind of fall into two broadcategories of controlled
motivation and autonomousmotivation.
So that controlled motivation iswhere we kind of feel pressure
to engage in something.
We've been controlled to do it.
So, for example, someone mayhave been told by their doctor
like you need to try intuitiveeating.
(23:23):
So in this case that personmight feel pressure from their
doctor to please them by tryingintuitive eating.
Or perhaps they would feelguilty if they didn't try to eat
this way.
So they're kind of feeling thatpressure from themselves.
So that's kind of quite acontrolling source of motivation
.
Autonomous motivation, on theother hand, is where someone
(23:47):
engages in a behavior because itkind of reflects their own
personal interests and values.
So, for example, someone mightsee the value intuitive eating.
They can see the benefit ofeating foods that make their
body feel good, as well as theimportance of not depriving
themselves.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
So also, perhaps they actually enjoy finding and
cooking new meals that tastegood as well as making their
body feel good.
So those are more what we callmore autonomous motivation.
So yes.
What's really interesting in myresearch is that you don't have
just one of these qualities ofmotivation.
You have a mix of all of thesedifferent qualities and
(24:27):
different amounts and we're kindof looking at the mix of that
pattern and how it's associatedwith intuitive eating.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
You know that is a fascinating way to look at it.
I can guess where this is going, because autonomous motivation
is more self-sustaining thanthose extrinsic.
So can you talk a little bitmore about how people might
apply that?
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I guess, yeah, the reasonwhy these different qualities of
motivation is really importantis because, like you say, we
know that the autonomousmotivations are more
self-sustaining, they'reassociated with healthier
outcomes.
So, amongst, like I was talkingabout, I did my master's
(25:16):
research on intuitive eating andself-determination in midlife
women.
So what we kind of found therewas the autonomous motivations
there associated with healthiereating habits.
So that looks like higherintuitive eating scores, less
frequent binge eating and ahigher intake of fruits and
(25:36):
vegetables, whereas thecontrolled motivations, on the
other hand, they're they're theones where you feel a bit more
pressure to engage in a behavior.
They're more associated with ahigher frequency of binge eating
, lower intuitive eating scoresand lower intakes of fruits and
vegetables.
So, yeah, we're really tryingto, I guess, with understanding
(26:00):
the motivations for why peopledo the things that they do.
So we can kind of use theseideas as maybe, like health
professionals, as a dietitian oras a doctor, to guide our
patients to hopefully developmore of these autonomous
motivations.
Absolutely To help them persistwith their behavior change.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Exactly that is so important, so important to so
many aspects of life.
I think a lot of us havelearned some negative thought
patterns around food, and so wereally need to cultivate this
more autonomous relationshipwith our eating.
You mentioned some intrinsicreasons like enjoyment.
(26:41):
Are there other ways thatpeople can be more mindful when
they're eating and cultivatethis more autonomous motivation
for intuitive eating?
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Yeah, thinking about the qualities of motivation.
We talked about how the morecontrolled motivations so
feeling guilty or feelingpressure from somebody else,
whether it be your doctor, yourpartner, your friends or family
those aren't very, I guess,sustaining sources of motivation
(27:12):
.
So I guess if we're we'retrying to move our motivation to
a more autonomous form, likeit's really thinking about the
reasons why we're doingsomething.
So trying to think about thereasons why you yourself want to
make the change, rather thanwhy does somebody else want you
(27:33):
to make the change.
So if we're trying to make, Iguess if we're trying to make
healthy eating changes, it mightbe thinking about you know the
benefits that it's going tobring yourself.
So, for example, sarahmentioned that the body, food
choice congruence, sorecognizing that you know you
(27:54):
can eat foods that are going totaste good, but there's certain
foods that are going to makeyour body feel good and function
at its best.
So fiber, for example, you know,recognizing that if I was to
eat more fiber from, say, fruitsand vegetables and grains,
that's going to make my gutfunction better and it's going
(28:14):
to make it's going to make mefeel better.
It's not going to make anybodyelse feel better, it's going to
make myself feel better.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Likewise might be thinking about.
You know if I, if I eat aparticular way, you know if I'm
listening to my hunger andsatiety.
So I'm making sure that my bodygets enough fuel rather than
maybe trying to, you know, gohungry to lose weight or work To
lose weight or whatever.
(28:43):
Making sure that I get enoughfuel.
That's going to mean that I canengage in the activities that
bring me lots of joy throughoutthe day.
Right and that might beimportant for myself.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Exactly.
All those are awesome points.
Recently, I did an episode onmidlife body image, which was
really enlightening for me, andI'm guessing that body image
interacts with this in a way too.
I think body image might fallmore on the extrinsic side of
things.
Is there anything you'd like toadd about how body image
(29:17):
interacts with this, sarah orHannah?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah, so I didn't go through all the principles of
intuitive eating earlier, butone of the principles is respect
your body, and the way that webrought that into the
intervention that was researchedwas by helping people in
midlife pause to think aboutappreciating how their body
(29:43):
functions rather than what itlooks like.
So, for me, even in my worstdays, when my chronic fatigue
was at its worst and I was stuckin bed still finding ways to
appreciate.
Maybe for me at the time itwasn't appreciating because I
had a lot of limitations butbeing in awe of how my brain was
(30:10):
functioning to still keep mealive, or like noticing my lungs
.
The way my lungs felt when Ibreathed had changed after I had
this virus and I focused onbreathing exercises and over
time my lungs were able to takein more oxygen and I was
starting to feel better.
(30:31):
So, appreciating what my bodywas doing and how it has carried
a baby in fact a baby for 17months, and appreciating my body
when I've done from 5Ks tomarathons, regardless of what I
looked like, because no one wasout there on the race coursing.
(30:51):
Oh, you're not a size 6, youcan't be here.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
So yeah.
So how did we do that with bodyappreciation?
We kind of did body scan kindof activities like taking time
to scan our body and think aboutcan I appreciate my lungs and
my liver at least things that wedon't really think about and my
butt for giving me somethingcushy to sit on and then also
(31:21):
taking an opportunity to thinkabout ways that we could
describe our body other thanthin and fat.
So is my body agile?
Is my body robust?
Is my body curvy?
Things like that, and,interestingly, if I could put a
quick New Zealand spin on this.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
And an indigenous spin on this.
We had Ashley Gillan visit ouruniversity to guest lecture on
what is fatness from anindigenous point of view, and
she was saying actually, from aMaori point of view, that means
a body is fertile and plentiful,and there were really positive
(32:04):
connotations.
So it's just when you startlooking at a Western lens of
bodies, it's where youpathologize them and think look
for the things that are wrongwith them.
So a lot of us have grown up ina culture that thinks in this
dichotomous way either a body isgood, or it's bad, or it's
unhealthy.
So allowing a bit more of thatkind of wiggle room.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Mm-hmm.
Yes, that is well said, youknow, and for me too it's
something that's come uprecently is like just this being
aware of this socialization ofthe conventional beauty, you
know just we have beensocialized with what beauty is,
but there's just so manydifferent interpretations and to
be aware that that's just kindof I'll just say a lie and
(32:51):
unrealistic, you know, it's justnot helpful what we're fed in
media in terms of what isconventional beauty.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Yeah, and with social media.
Social media has been cursedfor how it's an easy way to keep
pushing the thin ideal.
I use social media in theopposite way, so I follow people
on Instagram who are in largerbodies and by me seeing those
(33:19):
larger bodies doing whateverthey're doing.
They could just be sitting,they could be doing yoga, they
could be on a hike through theGrand Canyon.
That's helping me normalizethat.
Bodies do come in differentshapes and sizes and different
abilities, and that's okay.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
I mean that is one of thereasons why I do this podcast is
to change the narrative, toopen up our thoughts and to
really say we're midlifers, weknow better, we're smarter than
this, we can be criticalthinkers and we can talk about
this in a healthier way and beadvocates for healthier ideas,
(34:00):
for example, when it comes tobody image and eating.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
And what we haven't talked about yet.
Really too much has been aroundmental health.
And with the research that I didfor a few years ago.
We looked at teaching women toeat intuitively, but also using
acceptance and commitmenttherapy skills.
We saw improvements in mentalhealth and we have lots of data
(34:27):
to suggest that there's anassociation between dieting and
poor mental health outcomes.
And internationally, mentalhealth is a big issue.
There are not enoughpsychologists or not enough
social workers to treat everyonewho seeks treatment, and we
know that most people who areexperiencing mental health
(34:49):
difficulties are unlikely to goexperience to get mental health
support.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Right.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
So if we have intuitive eating as a tool that
somebody could try, not just forphysical health but also that
mental health component or aspiritual health component, I
see, I think add that to yourrepertoire, add that to your
toolkit, if it's useful to thinkabout it from a mental health
(35:19):
point of view.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Yeah, exactly that fits really nicely with what I
wanted to ask you about.
I'd love to hear a little bitmore about how you incorporated
ACT acceptance and commitmenttherapy with that.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Yeah.
So for people unfamiliar withacceptance and commitment
therapy, the model thatunderlines underlies what you do
Individually one or one or whenyou're developing intervention.
There's the six components ofthe model, where you're looking
at contact with the presentmoment, which would be like
(35:51):
mindfulness and diffusion wethink of as being able to unhook
from unhelpful thoughts.
There's this values component,committed action component, self
as context component.
I'm missing something right now, but actually the way that I
think of acceptance andcommitment therapy is from the
DNA V model point of view.
(36:12):
Okay, and so, for peopleunfamiliar with that model, it's
been developed by Louise Hayesand Joseph Trokey to be
developmentally appropriate foradolescents.
But when I learned about thismodel, I thought this is really
simple and also relevant toadults, where you can think of
yourself as someone who is anoticer, so noticing the things
(36:39):
happening within you and aroundyou.
You have an advisor, which isthis part of you that can take
your experiences from the pastand give you advice about what
you should do in this moment,but also thinks ahead about what
could happen in the future andhow does that inform the choices
(36:59):
that you make right now.
So, like I said, you have thatnoticer, you have the advisor,
and then we have an explorer.
So the explorer part of us isthinking about our values,
what's important to us, andtrying new ways of being, trying
new behaviors, trying newactions, trying new things that
are in line with who we want tobe, how we want our life to be,
(37:23):
and then just being open toseeing what happens, like
experimenting, and if the thingthat you tried works for you,
cool.
You might use it again in thefuture.
If it didn't work, that's okaytoo.
You now know that that approachdidn't work for you, so you
won't use it in the future, ormaybe it just didn't work in
this particular situation.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Very cool.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Yeah, with thinking about acceptance and commitment
therapy, we help people thinkabout their values.
Hannah talked about values whenshe was talking about
self-determination theory withpeople that I've worked with in
midlife it's what's important tome.
People will talk about domainsof their life Like my health is
(38:09):
important to me, my family isimportant to me.
So then we ask, we drill downand say, well, why are those
things important to me?
A lot of time people want to bearound for their children, for
their grandchildren.
There's a lot about wanting tofeel independent and not feeling
(38:30):
like we have to rely on otherpeople.
So we link these values to whywould you eat intuitively and
how can you use acceptance andcommitment therapy processes to
support that?
So from an act point of view Imentioned diffusion.
I like to think of it as a moresimple way of thinking about it
(38:53):
, as unhooking.
And so we might have a thoughtthat we're all caught up in like
, oh, I'm lazy.
So you might be somebody whowants to eat their fruits and
vegetables or add the legumesand lentils to a meal, whatever.
But you think, oh, I'm too lazy, and you get really caught up
and fused with I'm too lazy Tounhook.
(39:15):
From that we can say I'm havingthe thought that I am lazy, so
you still acknowledge that thisis coming up for you.
But by saying I'm having thethought that I'm lazy, it takes
some of the control away fromthe thought and creates this
space for you to then respond ina way that is meaningful to you
(39:39):
.
The other diffusion techniquethat I recommend to people is
saying things in a silly voice,whether that's Donald Duck or
Donald Trump or I think of theband Journey, when they sing
Living on a Prayer and myunhelpful thoughts.
Like I'm lazy, I would sing itin the way that Journey would
(40:00):
have sung it when they weresinging Living on a Prayer and,
Kyle, the reaction that you haveright now is exactly the
reaction that you would belooking for taking something
that has a bit of a sting to itand not trying to make fun of it
, but trying to take some of thepower away from the thought so
that you can react or respond ordo what's meaningful to you.
(40:22):
So, yeah, that's why I thoughtI would mention about those
would be around the values,thinking about our values,
defusing.
There's also urge surfing.
I don't know if you've talkedabout that on your podcast
before.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
No, I have not.
Please enlighten us.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
So we talked a little bit about hunger and being able
to notice hunger and respond tohunger.
And even me, after 15 years ofpracticing intuitive eating,
sometimes it's just like oh, isthat?
Is that physical hunger, or isthat my mouth just wanting
(41:00):
something?
and my hands wanting somethingto do, and so somebody might
practice urge surfing where youpause, you take a breath to just
get into this moment and noticewhere in your body are you
having the urge is a thought.
For me, sometimes it's just athought that I'm having the urge
(41:22):
to eat.
Special for me it happens atnine o'clock at night where I'm
having the urge to eat.
And so then I surf the urge andI give myself time to see if
that feeling I need to eat growsinside of my body, and if I
give myself maybe 10 minutes tosee if that, that urge, is a
(41:45):
physical sensation that does saylike, feed me now I am hungry,
then then that's what I'll do,it, then I'll eat.
Or maybe there the urge itrises like a wave and then it
crashes and it goes, itdisappears, it becomes part of
the ocean again and the feeling,that urge to eat, is gone.
(42:07):
So allowing ourselves to surfthe urge to see what happens can
be really important but reallyuseful.
The last I don't want to callit a trick or tip the last thing
that we can use in acceptanceand commitment therapy context.
I call it, just in time,intervention and it's called the
(42:31):
choice point.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
And so we're in a situation where we can make a
choice, and we can choose to actin a way that's in a line with
the person that we want to be,the life that we want to live,
or we might choose to act in away that moves us away from the
person that we want to be andaway from the life that we want
(42:53):
to live.
So an intuitive eater mightvalue living according to the
body's wisdom and they mighthave a moment where they're
going out for coffee with afriend and they see their friend
ordering a muffin or a slice ofcake to go with their coffee,
(43:18):
and that intuitive eater isthinking ah, they ordered it.
Should I order some too,Because that's just a social
norm sometimes.
So we also order food, but youlisten to your body and you're
like, not actually physicallyhungry.
So what do you do in thatmoment?
Do you not order the cake orthe muffin Because that's the
(43:40):
person that you want to be?
Or do you order it and eat it,but you're not actually enjoying
it because you're doing itbecause you felt like you had to
.
Yeah, so, using that choicepoint to help you decide do you
order it or do you not order it?
Speaker 1 (43:55):
That is great.
That sounds like beingauthentic with your eating.
Who do you want to be?
Are you making decisions foryourself, based on your own
values and your own priorities?
I love this conversation.
I think that the times I'm mostat risk are when I'm stressed
or when I'm tired.
Do you have any response tothat, as it relates to being an
(44:16):
intuitive eater?
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Yeah, so Evelyn Treboly and Elise Rush, so the
authors of the intuitive eatingbook also have a really helpful
workbook and within thatworkbook there's a section
devoted to nutrition 911.
And what do you do in thosemoments when you're stressed, or
when you're sick, or whenyou're depressed or whatever
(44:38):
reason, your life demands arehigh, your motivation might be
different than usual, and whatdo you do?
And it's a little bit ofpreparation to know what would
work for you in those moments.
So, based on your pastexperience, what would you need
(45:01):
to have available to you in thecupboard, in the fridge, in the
freezer, in your bag?
For me, it's usually like whenI'm on the go.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
It's when.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
I need that nutrition 911 and figuring out what will
be low burden and satisfyingthat.
I can have available to me andnot having shame or guilt around
what that looks like.
So, like I mentioned, with mychronic fatigue when it was bad
(45:31):
and this still happens sometimesthe scrambled eggs work for me.
I know it's nutritious, withthe protein in there, I'm
satisfied for a decent length oftime where I'm not going to be
putting energy into eating againreally soon.
Or the bowl of cereal and themilk.
So I know there's it's got amixture of different vitamins
(45:53):
and minerals and the fiberthat's going to nourish my body
in those moments.
And I'm not sure, when you'retalking about the stress,
whether that was like anemotional eating kind of thing
or not eating at all kind ofthing.
But I think it's still relevantto think about what are the
situations where it's mostdifficult for you to make those
(46:15):
eating choices that are in linewith the person you want to be,
the life that you want to live,and just taking the five minutes
to to mentally prepare for thatand then going a step further
and Preparing for that.
So buying buying the pretzels,buying I don't know whatever it
is to make things work that isSpot-on, practical, useful and
(46:41):
that really works for me.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
That that's exactly what I was asking, okay, so
you've given us a lot ofpractical tips here so far.
Is there anything else you'dlike our listeners to know?
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Last tip that I would suggest is based on research
that we've done, and it has beenas simple as Rating your hunger
, rating your fullness andrating your mindfulness.
So, before you eat, rating yourhunger and it could be on a
scale from zero, where You'reeither not hungry at all, to ten
(47:22):
, where you're completelystuffed, or, in our research, a
zero was your hunger is soextreme that you're almost sick
from how hungry you are and thenthe other end of the scale is
You're so sick from eating somuch.
So where are you?
Where are you falling in thatmoment and then starting to eat
(47:43):
when that rating is At a levelthat's just just kind of like a
little tap on the shouldersaying hey, I'm hungry.
Or when it's that tap on theshoulder where like, okay, I've
had, I'm Satisfied, I've hadenough and I'm not gonna leave
this snack or this meal feelinglike I'm depriving myself right
(48:06):
so, rating hunger, ratingfullness, like I said, we
usually do it on a scale fromExtremely hungry, where you're
feeling sick from hunger, toextremely full, very sick from
fullness, and then themindfulness.
So you can rate that on a scalefrom zero to ten, where zero
would be absolutely not mindfulat all.
It is the distracted eating atthe desk, the sandwiches by the
(48:29):
side.
You're typing with one hand,eating with the other, or when
we're driving, trying to Eatwhatever it is with one hand and
drive with the other hand,whereas the other end of the
scale would be absolutely, 100%,mindful and noticing every
single Bite of the whole meal,noticing taste, texture,
(48:51):
temperature, how it's feeling inthe body.
I Find that a lot of people findthat really impractical,
especially when we're in socialsituations.
Yeah, a lot of us are eatingmeals with co-workers or with
family or with a partner,whoever else and it's just
impractical to be in your ownzone.
(49:12):
Other people around you andgiving yourself permission to
say it's okay that I?
I just check in every once in awhile during this meal to
notice am I still enjoying whatI'm eating?
And yeah, so that sort ofmindfulness might be rated maybe
somewhere between a five and aseven on a scale from zero to
(49:34):
ten.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Okay, because a little bit of mindfulness might
feel better than none at all hmm, mm-hmm, yeah, those are really
great practical steps and ahelpful mindset we can adopt
right away here and continue topractice and and again.
I love how you're talking aboutthis in terms of it's it's
(49:55):
small steps, it's doing itcontinually, making it more
habitual, making it moreautonomous, as you're talking
about Hannah.
Really feel it like it'sbecoming a part of us and Part
of our values and again.
I love it.
You know eating it for yourauthentic cells you know, and
this has just been a reallyincredible and lightning and and
(50:15):
helpful conversation.
It just really is.
Before we come to a close, itjust seems to me like there are
there gonna be many peopleseeking further resources on
this.
What would you recommend forResources that people could
access if they want to go deeperwith this topic?
Speaker 2 (50:36):
Hannah, do you want to go, especially with your
dietitian hat on?
Speaker 1 (50:41):
mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (50:41):
Go for it, hannah well, I mean, I was just
thinking of, I guess, theIntruder of eating book that I
mentioned right at the verystart.
I think that was Quite a solidfoundation for me and, as Sarah
mentioned as well, the intuitiveeating workbook is also a
really good results because it'sgot those, you know, that space
where you can write down yourown experiences and reflect on
(51:04):
it and really work throughThrough it as a process.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
Yeah, Perfect, sarah.
Did you have anything youwanted to add in terms of
resources?
Speaker 2 (51:15):
Yeah, I found Evelyn Treboly's Instagram account and
YouTube channel really valuablecool and I think people will
find following her really usefulwhen they're not sure if
something's a diet or not.
For example, she's done a poston noom, the app that Markets
(51:37):
itself as a lifestyleintervention but really there is
to be potentially controversial.
It is a dieting app but.
But she explains why it's adieting app.
But she also has done reallyshort, one minute or less Videos
on what is intuitive eating.
(51:57):
And something else that I'vevalued about Evelyn's Instagram
account and YouTube channel,especially during the pandemic,
is she does a nice job of sayingit's okay to Be flexible and
how you fit intuitive eating inyour life, especially around the
(52:18):
stigma that can happen withpeople who use canned foods and
frozen foods To feed themselves.
There's a stigma that if you eatthose things that's bad, and
there's a lot of freshest bestMessaging out there, but Evelyn
helps us feel okay about that.
The frozen vegetables and thefrozen fruit and our freezer are
(52:40):
Just as nutritious as the freshstuff that you're paying twice
as much for in winter time,right?
So that has been one of thecriticisms of the intuitive
eating.
That I think is important toacknowledge is that it could be
criticized for being only forpeople who are privileged,
particularly financially, butalso people who are in more
(53:03):
socially acceptable bodies.
In whatever way.
So I did want to acknowledgethat I do.
I'm aware of the privilege thatthat someone needs to have to
make this more accessible tothem right very important point
Fed.
Fed is best, and If all youhave is the two-minute noodles
(53:26):
this week, and that is okay.
Speaker 1 (53:29):
That's right.
That's right.
It's not a light bulb, it's nota light switch on or off, it's.
It's kind of more of a dimmer,if you know.
And there's somewhere betweenyou just have to find that place
where you can be and do thebest you can.
Eating what's available andaffordable is entirely
acceptable.
Sarah and Hannah, again, I knowI've just been, you know, like
(53:50):
just gushing all over you, but Ijust really appreciate how you
approach this topic.
It's very real, it's verythoughtful, it's very rooted in
science and it's about reallyapproaching life in a healthy,
healthy way.
So I'm Extremely grateful forthis time.
It's been extremely enjoyable.
So thank you so much forjoining me.
Speaker 3 (54:13):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (54:16):
And at one hour of stuff.
I hope that was okay with youall, but oh my gosh, that was so
good.
Thank you, thank you.
So I'm going to start here and say welcome to the
show Hannah and Sarah.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Well, thanks for letting us join you.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Yeah, as we've been discussing.
I'm thrilled.
Sarah, could you start off byjust giving our listeners some
insight into your background andhow you got interested in the
topics we'll be exploring today?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Yeah, so the topic that we're talking about with
intuitive eating and acceptanceand commitment therapy, there's
this academic path that I'vebeen on and, starting with the
personal side, I recall beingback in high school when one of
the thoughts I had to myself wasI can do everything but lose
weight.
I was a strong athlete, strongacademically, had a job, was
(00:42):
involved in extracurriculars,and for me it was really
frustrating that I wasn't smalllike the other girls and for me
as a senior in high school I wasa little bit more like a senior
in high school.
It was on my mind quite a bitbecause I come from a family of
people with larger bodies.
We have a strong family historyof diabetes and cardiovascular
(01:06):
disease and I had a swim coachsay you know, if you lost a few
pounds, you might be a littlebit faster and going through all
the different unhelpful,maladaptive eating behaviors a
teenager does.
I found myself later on beingin a class for my master's
(01:27):
degree in nutrition and that'swhen I was introduced to
intuitive eating and for me tolearn about an approach where
our body has its own wisdom totell us what to eat, when to eat
, how much to eat, and weight isa side effect of that you can
still be healthy and still havea higher than recommended body
(01:50):
mass index.
I thought was really reallyvaluable.
So, continuing on the personalstory to all of this, I've been
an intuitive eater through lotsof different phases of my life.
So I was in my early twentieswhen I found out about intuitive
(02:10):
eating and at the time I wasgetting ready for a wedding and
I thought I'll listen to my bodyfor what to eat, when to eat,
how much to eat.
But actually it was definitelya learning process.
At first.
I explained to Hannah beforethat for me it was kind of a eat
when hungry kind of diet, andthat's not what intuitive eating
is.
I let myself eat all the thingswhenever I wanted to, but I was
(02:34):
eating to the point ofsatisfaction.
I always felt like I wasn'tcompletely satisfied.
All the corners of my stomachdidn't feel like they were
touched with food and I didn'treally love that feeling.
But later on, as I got used tolistening to my body, I was like
I mentioned.
I was an athlete in high schooland even after high school I
(02:56):
got into a triathlon and Iworked my way up to an Ironman
distance and that is a longevent.
You spend months and months.
For me, it took four years toget up to that point and to
prepare for a day that took me14 hours of swimming, 2.4 miles,
and cycling 100 and 112 miles,I think.
(03:17):
And then doing a marathon afterthat.
I had to really get in tunewith how does my body feel and
my hydrated?
Do I have enough fuel for rightnow and do I?
have enough fuel for 10 minutesfrom now?
And do I have enough fuel foran hour from now?
And then later on, I was anintuitive eater through my
pregnancy with my son, andthat's a really unique time in a
(03:41):
woman's life where your body isgoing through these changes.
You have health professionalstrying to help you keep yourself
healthy, try to keep your babyhealthy, and I distinctly
remember a day where I wasbalancing a tub of ice cream on
my baby bump and just thinkinglike I want to eat the whole
(04:02):
thing, but it, but I have thisurge to eat the whole thing, but
is that really?
Is that really what I want todo right now?
So, I take a spoonful of icecream, enjoy it, notice the
taste, notice the texture,notice the temperature, and I
would just have this messageinside me saying I want another,
(04:22):
another bite of ice cream.
And I did keep going and I atemost of the ice cream, but I
didn't have that guilt or shamealong with it because my that
was one time in nine monthswhere I sat down and ate all the
ice cream.
Yeah, and then the final stage.
Well, it's not as final stage,I'm still going with it but, the
(04:43):
final important part of thisstory has been the last four
years, with me having chronicfatigue syndrome.
So four years ago I got sickwith a virus and I'm still
recovering from that and it'saffected me cognitively.
I have had days where I cannotfollow I could not follow a
recipe.
It would give me a really badheadache and I wouldn't be able
(05:06):
to think clearly for hours.
And I would try to stand up andchop vegetables and stir them
in the pot and I didn't have thephysical capacity for doing
that.
And there were days where abowl of cereal was was it that?
That was what was all I could,all I had energy for?
(05:28):
Or there was days wherescrambled eggs that was all I
had energy for.
But with intuitive eating I wasbalancing, making sure my body
was fueled with what my body wascapable of doing.
So I found that intuitiveeating through all these
different phases of my life hasbeen really valuable and over
(05:49):
the past 10, it's longer than 10years, now almost 15 years I've
been researching intuitiveeating because I found.
Personally, it was reallyimportant to me.
But what is the evidence for itand can I, can I contribute to
that evidence and I?
Speaker 1 (06:06):
I have been yes, you hit on so many notes there that
just you know.
That's one of the reasons why Ireally wanted to have you two
on this show, because it reallyis a healthier, psychologically
way to approach you know yourbody approach food because, in
part because of you, Sarah,there is emerging, there's
(06:26):
evidence for it, you know it's,it seems like there's.
It's becoming more popular, butthat's, I think, because there
is evidence for it and let's see, without cussing holy cow,
Sarah, those are some realchallenging situations to do
intuitive eating that you'rediscussing.
You need a lot of fuel for thetriathlon.
You need you had stress andyou're caring for somebody else
(06:47):
through your baby and being acoming, a mother, and then also
with chronic fatigue.
Those are really challengingsituations.
So I appreciate so much thatyou can speak to all of those.
So let's dive deeper into that.
I have to admit this is one ofmy first encounters with
intuitive eating and I'm sureit's not going to be the last.
So can we go a little deeperinto that in terms of what
(07:09):
intuitive eating is and some ofthe core principles of it?
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Absolutely With intuitive eating.
I'll base what I share on theintuitive eating books by Evelyn
Treboly and Elise Rush, so thatthose came out maybe about 20
years ago Hannah can correct meon some of this and so they're
American dietitians, and thebook is based on 10 principles,
(07:37):
and I find for a podcast it'sprobably simpler not to think of
the 10 principles of intuitiveeating, but look at how we
measure intuitive eating in aresearch context, using Tracy
Tilka's intuitive eating scale.
So those 10 principles arecombined into four key
(08:01):
components, and one of thecomponents is eating for
physical rather than emotional,eating for physical rather than
emotional reasons, and we havereliance on hunger and satiety
cues.
So eating based on when thatgnawing in your stomach is
(08:23):
starting to show up or when younotice that your concentration
is starting to fade things likethat rather than.
I'm tired, I'm lonely, I'm bored, I'm sad.
So using not eating in responseto those feelings.
So we have unconditionalpermission to eat, which is
(08:46):
really tricky for people tothink about and actually do.
So unconditional permission toeat is allowing yourself to eat
what you want, when you want,how much you want, and so it's
not having rules like I can onlyeat between 12 pm and 8 pm.
(09:10):
It's if I'm feeling hungry, Ilove myself eat and it is.
If I feel like eating a salad,that's what I'm eating, and it's
not because a diet is tellingme to do that.
It's because that's what mybody is telling me is going to
help me function well, as wellas the things like the cakes,
the brownies, the pastries.
(09:31):
Those are okay because thoseare pleasurable to eat and that
might be what we need right thenand there.
Or there is a social occasionand that's what we're having.
So, yeah, and laying ourselves,eat enough to feel satisfied.
So, thinking about what worksfor me in this moment,
(09:53):
regardless of what I had earlierin the day.
So we're not punishingourselves if we're feeling
hungry now, but thinking, oh, Iate too much earlier.
But there is a degree of beingpractical with intuitive eating.
So if I know I'm going to havea meeting and it just I know I'm
going to get hungry during theeating, it's okay to have a
(10:15):
little bit of fuel now so that Idon't get angry during the
meeting.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Right yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
The last component is body food choice congruence,
and that is listening to yourbody and choosing foods that
help your body function well.
But there's also this gentlenutrition component, where you
can inform what you eat based ondietary guidelines, but using
them flexibly and not using themlike rules that you have to
(10:45):
follow.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, oh, my gosh, that's mind blowing already, and
we're only what a few minutesinto this, so I really like that
.
This is a mind shift for me.
I hear you saying we're kind oflike scientists with our body,
like what we know works, we keepdoing.
We're being reflective aboutwhat we're eating and then using
that moving forward.
That is so cool.
(11:07):
You know, this podcast isfocused on midlife and midlifers
and the reason that you got myattention was because you
published you used.
One of the reasons is youpublished a really interesting
study on using intuitive eatingwith midlife women, so could you
talk a little bit more abouthow intuitive eating relates to
(11:28):
midlife?
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah, it relates to.
At midlife, we're either goingthrough a lot of different
things we might still be havingbabies or raising children and
taking care of parents andbalancing a job and our body is
changing.
It's not the way it was back inhigh school.
We have a bit more of a tensionaround what is our health going
(11:55):
to look like in the future.
You might see people morelikely to have the doctor say
are you looking like you mighthave pre-diabetes, for example?
We are, relationships with ourpartners might be changing and
we might be thinking about am Ias attractive to my partner as I
(12:15):
used to be?
Those are the things that cometo mind about midlife.
They're relevant in your 20sand later.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
It's popped up as important issues to our study
participants.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
For sure.
We're going through so manychanges in body and energy and
our responsibilities, so fuelingour bodies for all those
responsibilities and maintaininghealth as we age is really
important.
I'm sure there's a bigcomponent of self-compassion and
mindfulness.
I'd just like to hear how thatfits within your research and
(12:52):
what you'd say to our listenersabout that.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah, so the mindfulness front.
In order to be able to fuel ourbody in a way that it wants to
be fueled, we have to be able tonotice am I hungry right now?
So taking those pausesthroughout the day to notice
what am I feeling in my head orin my throat or in my stomach,
(13:17):
and being able to label that ina way that works for us, so that
helps you be able to identifythis feeling is hunger rather
than this feeling is boredom.
And then that awareness duringthat snack or during that meal
(13:38):
so being aware of the taste, thetexture, the food and how our
stomach is feeling is more ofthat goes into our stomach to
help us notice when would be thelast bite threshold, which
Evelyn and I at least talk aboutin their book in the last bite
threshold is when you realizethat that could be the last bite
of your food that you're goingto have for that eating occasion
(14:02):
.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Definitely, and you really went in depth with some
midlife women and they had somechallenges and they had some
changes.
Could you talk just a littlebit about challenges that people
might be facing as they try toincorporate intuitive eating and
what you might say to that?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah, so some of the challenges, a big one,
particularly for women who havea long history of dieting
because, keep in mind, with theresearch that I've done, there
have been women who starteddieting when they were nine
years old or when they were intheir early teens, so they have
a very long history ofrestricting what they eat and
(14:40):
how much they eat, and so when Iam there or when they are,
we're on the website that wecreated for the intuitive eating
intervention.
To be told it's okay to eat whatyou want was scary.
That was a huge challenge thatpeople felt scared to trust
(15:02):
their body because they thoughtif I open up a package of Oreos,
I'm going to eat the wholething.
Or if I do open that tub of icecream, I am going to eat the
whole thing.
And that's quite scary forpeople because they label that
as something that's bad.
If they do do that, and what doyou do?
What do you do If somebody hasthat fear that they're going to
(15:26):
binge eat?
That's a big concern.
People, women in particularword that they're going to binge
eat.
And then that's when I wouldsay well, these are your
thoughts, that your mind istelling you that you are going
to binge eat if you let yourselfopen up the Oreos.
Just be open to seeing what'sgoing to happen, have that
(15:48):
curiosity about what you'll dowith the food.
And if you do eat the wholesleeve of Oreos, do it
intentionally, not in a way thatyou're going to feel guilty or
shameful about, but enjoy thefucking Oreos.
I don't know if I'm allowed toswear, but you are.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
In fact, I'll probably make a t-shirt of that
in a mug and send it to you.
You can definitely say thatthis is an adult show, so bring
it on, Tara.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
I think just owning up to what you're doing helps
people either break that cycle,that diet cycle that they can
get into where somebody's beenreally restrictive, and then
they fall off the wagon, havethe forbidden food, feel really
bad about it for a while andthen get back on the diet cycle.
(16:39):
So if you just say this iswhat's going to work, for me
right now is leaving the sleeveof.
Oreos just going for it.
So it's okay to be scared ofwhat will happen, especially if
you've been dieting for a longtime.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
You know, that resonates with me a lot.
It's been really interestingdoing this podcast because,
especially for me as a midlifer,I am reframing my life in terms
of yeah, you know, I used to dothat, but now I'm wiser and I'm
more intentional about my path,that I want to move forward.
You know, and it's not like adenying reality, it's about
(17:16):
confronting yeah, you know, Ihave eaten that whole piece of
fucking Oreos.
That doesn't mean that's howthis is going to be moving
forward, and I think that's areally cool way to look at that.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Yeah, because you are it's unlikely that you would
keep eating a food like that allthe time, because your body is
going to tell you actuallyeating a bunch of those,
whatever it is, will stick with.
The Oreos might have made mefeel really yucky, and so the
next time that I'm having theurge to go and do that, then
(17:50):
I've had that past experienceand it's been an opportunity to
learn that in the future.
Maybe, maybe I will stop alittle bit sooner.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
And that's a big part of it too is having self
compassion for yourself, youknow, and being aware and
learning and growing, and that'sanother reason I'm just so
excited to share this withpeople.
Hannah, I'm thrilled you'rewith us here too.
You've been taking aninteresting angle on it as well,
so could you give us a littlepersonal background and then
(18:21):
talk about your angle?
You've been putting on this interms of self determination
theory.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Thank you for having me on the podcast.
So, like Sarah, I guess, when Iwas younger, going through
college, I had the similar bodyimage issues and maladaptive
eating behaviors that a lot ofteenage girls in particular go
through and.
I think that really probablydrove my interest in studying
(18:51):
nutrition.
So probably not the healthiestway to enter the profession, but
it's okay.
Unfortunately, I think that's alot of the reason why a lot of
people do enter it.
So studies undergraduatenutrition, then went on to doing
(19:12):
my maths as a dietetics and itwasn't until the last six months
of my masters where I found outabout intuitive eating and I
thought so.
We were essentially given theseresearch topics to work on, and
my one was on intuitive eatingand self determination theory.
(19:33):
So that's when I was introducedto those topics, and it must
have been like a month or twointo writing my thesis and I
thought, you know what?
It would probably be a goodidea for me to actually read
this book that I keep referringto.
So I read it and I was like man, I had such a revelation.
(19:54):
The book really resonated withme and I guess you know I had
always been interested in thepsychology of eating.
You know that's kind of thereason why I had gone into
nutrition, because I wanted tofigure out why I eat the way I
do.
And yeah, it was kind of when Iread that book that I don't
know so many things kind ofclicked into place and I thought
(20:16):
oh, I finally get it.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
It was a little unfortunate that it happened
like six months, you know thelast six months of my degree but
that's okay.
I got there in the end and sothen it was really cool.
I went on to working as adietitian for a wee bit, and
particularly as a communitydietitian I was able to
introduce people to the conceptsof intuitive eating and, just
(20:44):
like Sarah was saying before, Idid have a lot of midlife.
People referred to thedietitian service and so many
people would often say, like Idon't buy chocolate because I'm
scared that I'm just going toeat the whole packet.
(21:05):
And it was really cool to beable to bring in these ideas of
intuitive eating and kind of youknow, talking through, like
maybe the reason why you feellike you're going to eat the
whole packet is because you'refeeling that sense of
deprivation because you're notallowing yourself to have the
chocolate.
So yes.
Yeah, it was really a reallycool experience bringing in
(21:26):
those ideas of intuitive eatingin my practice.
And then and then now I am backdoing my PhD because I loved
intuitive eating so much.
So again I'm looking atintuitive eating from a self
determination theory perspective.
So that is really, that is atheory of motivation, so it's
(21:47):
looking at the reasons whypeople might be wanting to eat
intuitively.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Just curious, which book didyou read?
I know you read many books now,but was it the same one Sarah
reference, or what book?
Speaker 3 (22:03):
was it?
Yes, yes, the same one, sarahreference.
So the intuitive eating, theintuitive eating book, the one
with the 10 principles ofintuitive eating, and I think it
was first published in 1995.
So there's four editions outnow, but I think I must have
read one of the first editions.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Yeah, yeah, cool.
So this is Hannah.
As we discussed before the show, I'm a big fan of
self-deterreditation theory andI'm aு.
Could you tell us a little bitabout the core components of
self-determination theory andhow it relates to this topic of
intuitive eating?
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Like I was saying,self-determination theory is a
theory of motivation.
So you might think of yourselfas having high levels of
motivation or low levels ofmotivation to do something.
But self-determination theoryalso distinguishes between
different qualities ofmotivation.
So basically there's sixdifferent qualities, but they
(23:03):
kind of fall into two broadcategories of controlled
motivation and autonomousmotivation.
So that controlled motivation iswhere we kind of feel pressure
to engage in something.
We've been controlled to do it.
So, for example, someone mayhave been told by their doctor
like you need to try intuitiveeating.
(23:23):
So in this case that personmight feel pressure from their
doctor to please them by tryingintuitive eating.
Or perhaps they would feelguilty if they didn't try to eat
this way.
So they're kind of feeling thatpressure from themselves.
So that's kind of quite acontrolling source of motivation
.
Autonomous motivation, on theother hand, is where someone
(23:47):
engages in a behavior because itkind of reflects their own
personal interests and values.
So, for example, someone mightsee the value intuitive eating.
They can see the benefit ofeating foods that make their
body feel good, as well as theimportance of not depriving
themselves.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
So also, perhaps they actually enjoy finding and
cooking new meals that tastegood as well as making their
body feel good.
So those are more what we callmore autonomous motivation.
So yes.
What's really interesting in myresearch is that you don't have
just one of these qualities ofmotivation.
You have a mix of all of thesedifferent qualities and
(24:27):
different amounts and we're kindof looking at the mix of that
pattern and how it's associatedwith intuitive eating.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
You know that is a fascinating way to look at it.
I can guess where this is going, because autonomous motivation
is more self-sustaining thanthose extrinsic.
So can you talk a little bitmore about how people might
apply that?
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I guess, yeah, the reasonwhy these different qualities of
motivation is really importantis because, like you say, we
know that the autonomousmotivations are more
self-sustaining, they'reassociated with healthier
outcomes.
So, amongst, like I was talkingabout, I did my master's
(25:16):
research on intuitive eating andself-determination in midlife
women.
So what we kind of found therewas the autonomous motivations
there associated with healthiereating habits.
So that looks like higherintuitive eating scores, less
frequent binge eating and ahigher intake of fruits and
(25:36):
vegetables, whereas thecontrolled motivations, on the
other hand, they're they're theones where you feel a bit more
pressure to engage in a behavior.
They're more associated with ahigher frequency of binge eating
, lower intuitive eating scoresand lower intakes of fruits and
vegetables.
So, yeah, we're really tryingto, I guess, with understanding
(26:00):
the motivations for why peopledo the things that they do.
So we can kind of use theseideas as maybe, like health
professionals, as a dietitian oras a doctor, to guide our
patients to hopefully developmore of these autonomous
motivations.
Absolutely To help them persistwith their behavior change.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Exactly that is so important, so important to so
many aspects of life.
I think a lot of us havelearned some negative thought
patterns around food, and so wereally need to cultivate this
more autonomous relationshipwith our eating.
You mentioned some intrinsicreasons like enjoyment.
(26:41):
Are there other ways thatpeople can be more mindful when
they're eating and cultivatethis more autonomous motivation
for intuitive eating?
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Yeah, thinking about the qualities of motivation.
We talked about how the morecontrolled motivations so
feeling guilty or feelingpressure from somebody else,
whether it be your doctor, yourpartner, your friends or family
those aren't very, I guess,sustaining sources of motivation
(27:12):
.
So I guess if we're we'retrying to move our motivation to
a more autonomous form, likeit's really thinking about the
reasons why we're doingsomething.
So trying to think about thereasons why you yourself want to
make the change, rather thanwhy does somebody else want you
(27:33):
to make the change.
So if we're trying to make, Iguess if we're trying to make
healthy eating changes, it mightbe thinking about you know the
benefits that it's going tobring yourself.
So, for example, sarahmentioned that the body, food
choice congruence, sorecognizing that you know you
(27:54):
can eat foods that are going totaste good, but there's certain
foods that are going to makeyour body feel good and function
at its best.
So fiber, for example, you know,recognizing that if I was to
eat more fiber from, say, fruitsand vegetables and grains,
that's going to make my gutfunction better and it's going
(28:14):
to make it's going to make mefeel better.
It's not going to make anybodyelse feel better, it's going to
make myself feel better.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Likewise might be thinking about.
You know if I, if I eat aparticular way, you know if I'm
listening to my hunger andsatiety.
So I'm making sure that my bodygets enough fuel rather than
maybe trying to, you know, gohungry to lose weight or work To
lose weight or whatever.
(28:43):
Making sure that I get enoughfuel.
That's going to mean that I canengage in the activities that
bring me lots of joy throughoutthe day.
Right and that might beimportant for myself.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Exactly.
All those are awesome points.
Recently, I did an episode onmidlife body image, which was
really enlightening for me, andI'm guessing that body image
interacts with this in a way too.
I think body image might fallmore on the extrinsic side of
things.
Is there anything you'd like toadd about how body image
(29:17):
interacts with this, sarah orHannah?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah, so I didn't go through all the principles of
intuitive eating earlier, butone of the principles is respect
your body, and the way that webrought that into the
intervention that was researchedwas by helping people in
midlife pause to think aboutappreciating how their body
(29:43):
functions rather than what itlooks like.
So, for me, even in my worstdays, when my chronic fatigue
was at its worst and I was stuckin bed still finding ways to
appreciate.
Maybe for me at the time itwasn't appreciating because I
had a lot of limitations butbeing in awe of how my brain was
(30:10):
functioning to still keep mealive, or like noticing my lungs
.
The way my lungs felt when Ibreathed had changed after I had
this virus and I focused onbreathing exercises and over
time my lungs were able to takein more oxygen and I was
starting to feel better.
(30:31):
So, appreciating what my bodywas doing and how it has carried
a baby in fact a baby for 17months, and appreciating my body
when I've done from 5Ks tomarathons, regardless of what I
looked like, because no one wasout there on the race coursing.
(30:51):
Oh, you're not a size 6, youcan't be here.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
So yeah.
So how did we do that with bodyappreciation?
We kind of did body scan kindof activities like taking time
to scan our body and think aboutcan I appreciate my lungs and
my liver at least things that wedon't really think about and my
butt for giving me somethingcushy to sit on and then also
(31:21):
taking an opportunity to thinkabout ways that we could
describe our body other thanthin and fat.
So is my body agile?
Is my body robust?
Is my body curvy?
Things like that, and,interestingly, if I could put a
quick New Zealand spin on this.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
And an indigenous spin on this.
We had Ashley Gillan visit ouruniversity to guest lecture on
what is fatness from anindigenous point of view, and
she was saying actually, from aMaori point of view, that means
a body is fertile and plentiful,and there were really positive
(32:04):
connotations.
So it's just when you startlooking at a Western lens of
bodies, it's where youpathologize them and think look
for the things that are wrongwith them.
So a lot of us have grown up ina culture that thinks in this
dichotomous way either a body isgood, or it's bad, or it's
unhealthy.
So allowing a bit more of thatkind of wiggle room.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Mm-hmm.
Yes, that is well said, youknow, and for me too it's
something that's come uprecently is like just this being
aware of this socialization ofthe conventional beauty, you
know just we have beensocialized with what beauty is,
but there's just so manydifferent interpretations and to
be aware that that's just kindof I'll just say a lie and
(32:51):
unrealistic, you know, it's justnot helpful what we're fed in
media in terms of what isconventional beauty.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Yeah, and with social media.
Social media has been cursedfor how it's an easy way to keep
pushing the thin ideal.
I use social media in theopposite way, so I follow people
on Instagram who are in largerbodies and by me seeing those
(33:19):
larger bodies doing whateverthey're doing.
They could just be sitting,they could be doing yoga, they
could be on a hike through theGrand Canyon.
That's helping me normalizethat.
Bodies do come in differentshapes and sizes and different
abilities, and that's okay.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
I mean that is one of thereasons why I do this podcast is
to change the narrative, toopen up our thoughts and to
really say we're midlifers, weknow better, we're smarter than
this, we can be criticalthinkers and we can talk about
this in a healthier way and beadvocates for healthier ideas,
(34:00):
for example, when it comes tobody image and eating.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
And what we haven't talked about yet.
Really too much has been aroundmental health.
And with the research that I didfor a few years ago.
We looked at teaching women toeat intuitively, but also using
acceptance and commitmenttherapy skills.
We saw improvements in mentalhealth and we have lots of data
(34:27):
to suggest that there's anassociation between dieting and
poor mental health outcomes.
And internationally, mentalhealth is a big issue.
There are not enoughpsychologists or not enough
social workers to treat everyonewho seeks treatment, and we
know that most people who areexperiencing mental health
(34:49):
difficulties are unlikely to goexperience to get mental health
support.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Right.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
So if we have intuitive eating as a tool that
somebody could try, not just forphysical health but also that
mental health component or aspiritual health component, I
see, I think add that to yourrepertoire, add that to your
toolkit, if it's useful to thinkabout it from a mental health
(35:19):
point of view.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Yeah, exactly that fits really nicely with what I
wanted to ask you about.
I'd love to hear a little bitmore about how you incorporated
ACT acceptance and commitmenttherapy with that.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Yeah.
So for people unfamiliar withacceptance and commitment
therapy, the model thatunderlines underlies what you do
Individually one or one or whenyou're developing intervention.
There's the six components ofthe model, where you're looking
at contact with the presentmoment, which would be like
(35:51):
mindfulness and diffusion wethink of as being able to unhook
from unhelpful thoughts.
There's this values component,committed action component, self
as context component.
I'm missing something right now, but actually the way that I
think of acceptance andcommitment therapy is from the
DNA V model point of view.
(36:12):
Okay, and so, for peopleunfamiliar with that model, it's
been developed by Louise Hayesand Joseph Trokey to be
developmentally appropriate foradolescents.
But when I learned about thismodel, I thought this is really
simple and also relevant toadults, where you can think of
yourself as someone who is anoticer, so noticing the things
(36:39):
happening within you and aroundyou.
You have an advisor, which isthis part of you that can take
your experiences from the pastand give you advice about what
you should do in this moment,but also thinks ahead about what
could happen in the future andhow does that inform the choices
(36:59):
that you make right now.
So, like I said, you have thatnoticer, you have the advisor,
and then we have an explorer.
So the explorer part of us isthinking about our values,
what's important to us, andtrying new ways of being, trying
new behaviors, trying newactions, trying new things that
are in line with who we want tobe, how we want our life to be,
(37:23):
and then just being open toseeing what happens, like
experimenting, and if the thingthat you tried works for you,
cool.
You might use it again in thefuture.
If it didn't work, that's okaytoo.
You now know that that approachdidn't work for you, so you
won't use it in the future, ormaybe it just didn't work in
this particular situation.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Very cool.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Yeah, with thinking about acceptance and commitment
therapy, we help people thinkabout their values.
Hannah talked about values whenshe was talking about
self-determination theory withpeople that I've worked with in
midlife it's what's important tome.
People will talk about domainsof their life Like my health is
(38:09):
important to me, my family isimportant to me.
So then we ask, we drill downand say, well, why are those
things important to me?
A lot of time people want to bearound for their children, for
their grandchildren.
There's a lot about wanting tofeel independent and not feeling
(38:30):
like we have to rely on otherpeople.
So we link these values to whywould you eat intuitively and
how can you use acceptance andcommitment therapy processes to
support that?
So from an act point of view Imentioned diffusion.
I like to think of it as a moresimple way of thinking about it
(38:53):
, as unhooking.
And so we might have a thoughtthat we're all caught up in like
, oh, I'm lazy.
So you might be somebody whowants to eat their fruits and
vegetables or add the legumesand lentils to a meal, whatever.
But you think, oh, I'm too lazy, and you get really caught up
and fused with I'm too lazy Tounhook.
(39:15):
From that we can say I'm havingthe thought that I am lazy, so
you still acknowledge that thisis coming up for you.
But by saying I'm having thethought that I'm lazy, it takes
some of the control away fromthe thought and creates this
space for you to then respond ina way that is meaningful to you
(39:39):
.
The other diffusion techniquethat I recommend to people is
saying things in a silly voice,whether that's Donald Duck or
Donald Trump or I think of theband Journey, when they sing
Living on a Prayer and myunhelpful thoughts.
Like I'm lazy, I would sing itin the way that Journey would
(40:00):
have sung it when they weresinging Living on a Prayer and,
Kyle, the reaction that you haveright now is exactly the
reaction that you would belooking for taking something
that has a bit of a sting to itand not trying to make fun of it
, but trying to take some of thepower away from the thought so
that you can react or respond ordo what's meaningful to you.
(40:22):
So, yeah, that's why I thoughtI would mention about those
would be around the values,thinking about our values,
defusing.
There's also urge surfing.
I don't know if you've talkedabout that on your podcast
before.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
No, I have not.
Please enlighten us.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
So we talked a little bit about hunger and being able
to notice hunger and respond tohunger.
And even me, after 15 years ofpracticing intuitive eating,
sometimes it's just like oh, isthat?
Is that physical hunger, or isthat my mouth just wanting
(41:00):
something?
and my hands wanting somethingto do, and so somebody might
practice urge surfing where youpause, you take a breath to just
get into this moment and noticewhere in your body are you
having the urge is a thought.
For me, sometimes it's just athought that I'm having the urge
(41:22):
to eat.
Special for me it happens atnine o'clock at night where I'm
having the urge to eat.
And so then I surf the urge andI give myself time to see if
that feeling I need to eat growsinside of my body, and if I
give myself maybe 10 minutes tosee if that, that urge, is a
(41:45):
physical sensation that does saylike, feed me now I am hungry,
then then that's what I'll do,it, then I'll eat.
Or maybe there the urge itrises like a wave and then it
crashes and it goes, itdisappears, it becomes part of
the ocean again and the feeling,that urge to eat, is gone.
(42:07):
So allowing ourselves to surfthe urge to see what happens can
be really important but reallyuseful.
The last I don't want to callit a trick or tip the last thing
that we can use in acceptanceand commitment therapy context.
I call it, just in time,intervention and it's called the
(42:31):
choice point.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
And so we're in a situation where we can make a
choice, and we can choose to actin a way that's in a line with
the person that we want to be,the life that we want to live,
or we might choose to act in away that moves us away from the
person that we want to be andaway from the life that we want
(42:53):
to live.
So an intuitive eater mightvalue living according to the
body's wisdom and they mighthave a moment where they're
going out for coffee with afriend and they see their friend
ordering a muffin or a slice ofcake to go with their coffee,
(43:18):
and that intuitive eater isthinking ah, they ordered it.
Should I order some too,Because that's just a social
norm sometimes.
So we also order food, but youlisten to your body and you're
like, not actually physicallyhungry.
So what do you do in thatmoment?
Do you not order the cake orthe muffin Because that's the
(43:40):
person that you want to be?
Or do you order it and eat it,but you're not actually enjoying
it because you're doing itbecause you felt like you had to
.
Yeah, so, using that choicepoint to help you decide do you
order it or do you not order it?
Speaker 1 (43:55):
That is great.
That sounds like beingauthentic with your eating.
Who do you want to be?
Are you making decisions foryourself, based on your own
values and your own priorities?
I love this conversation.
I think that the times I'm mostat risk are when I'm stressed
or when I'm tired.
Do you have any response tothat, as it relates to being an
(44:16):
intuitive eater?
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Yeah, so Evelyn Treboly and Elise Rush, so the
authors of the intuitive eatingbook also have a really helpful
workbook and within thatworkbook there's a section
devoted to nutrition 911.
And what do you do in thosemoments when you're stressed, or
when you're sick, or whenyou're depressed or whatever
(44:38):
reason, your life demands arehigh, your motivation might be
different than usual, and whatdo you do?
And it's a little bit ofpreparation to know what would
work for you in those moments.
So, based on your pastexperience, what would you need
(45:01):
to have available to you in thecupboard, in the fridge, in the
freezer, in your bag?
For me, it's usually like whenI'm on the go.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
It's when.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
I need that nutrition 911 and figuring out what will
be low burden and satisfyingthat.
I can have available to me andnot having shame or guilt around
what that looks like.
So, like I mentioned, with mychronic fatigue when it was bad
(45:31):
and this still happens sometimesthe scrambled eggs work for me.
I know it's nutritious, withthe protein in there, I'm
satisfied for a decent length oftime where I'm not going to be
putting energy into eating againreally soon.
Or the bowl of cereal and themilk.
So I know there's it's got amixture of different vitamins
(45:53):
and minerals and the fiberthat's going to nourish my body
in those moments.
And I'm not sure, when you'retalking about the stress,
whether that was like anemotional eating kind of thing
or not eating at all kind ofthing.
But I think it's still relevantto think about what are the
situations where it's mostdifficult for you to make those
(46:15):
eating choices that are in linewith the person you want to be,
the life that you want to live,and just taking the five minutes
to to mentally prepare for thatand then going a step further
and Preparing for that.
So buying buying the pretzels,buying I don't know whatever it
is to make things work that isSpot-on, practical, useful and
(46:41):
that really works for me.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
That that's exactly what I was asking, okay, so
you've given us a lot ofpractical tips here so far.
Is there anything else you'dlike our listeners to know?
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Last tip that I would suggest is based on research
that we've done, and it has beenas simple as Rating your hunger
, rating your fullness andrating your mindfulness.
So, before you eat, rating yourhunger and it could be on a
scale from zero, where You'reeither not hungry at all, to ten
(47:22):
, where you're completelystuffed, or, in our research, a
zero was your hunger is soextreme that you're almost sick
from how hungry you are and thenthe other end of the scale is
You're so sick from eating somuch.
So where are you?
Where are you falling in thatmoment and then starting to eat
(47:43):
when that rating is At a levelthat's just just kind of like a
little tap on the shouldersaying hey, I'm hungry.
Or when it's that tap on theshoulder where like, okay, I've
had, I'm Satisfied, I've hadenough and I'm not gonna leave
this snack or this meal feelinglike I'm depriving myself right
(48:06):
so, rating hunger, ratingfullness, like I said, we
usually do it on a scale fromExtremely hungry, where you're
feeling sick from hunger, toextremely full, very sick from
fullness, and then themindfulness.
So you can rate that on a scalefrom zero to ten, where zero
would be absolutely not mindfulat all.
It is the distracted eating atthe desk, the sandwiches by the
(48:29):
side.
You're typing with one hand,eating with the other, or when
we're driving, trying to Eatwhatever it is with one hand and
drive with the other hand,whereas the other end of the
scale would be absolutely, 100%,mindful and noticing every
single Bite of the whole meal,noticing taste, texture,
(48:51):
temperature, how it's feeling inthe body.
I Find that a lot of people findthat really impractical,
especially when we're in socialsituations.
Yeah, a lot of us are eatingmeals with co-workers or with
family or with a partner,whoever else and it's just
impractical to be in your ownzone.
(49:12):
Other people around you andgiving yourself permission to
say it's okay that I?
I just check in every once in awhile during this meal to
notice am I still enjoying whatI'm eating?
And yeah, so that sort ofmindfulness might be rated maybe
somewhere between a five and aseven on a scale from zero to
(49:34):
ten.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Okay, because a little bit of mindfulness might
feel better than none at all hmm, mm-hmm, yeah, those are really
great practical steps and ahelpful mindset we can adopt
right away here and continue topractice and and again.
I love how you're talking aboutthis in terms of it's it's
(49:55):
small steps, it's doing itcontinually, making it more
habitual, making it moreautonomous, as you're talking
about Hannah.
Really feel it like it'sbecoming a part of us and Part
of our values and again.
I love it.
You know eating it for yourauthentic cells you know, and
this has just been a reallyincredible and lightning and and
(50:15):
helpful conversation.
It just really is.
Before we come to a close, itjust seems to me like there are
there gonna be many peopleseeking further resources on
this.
What would you recommend forResources that people could
access if they want to go deeperwith this topic?
Speaker 2 (50:36):
Hannah, do you want to go, especially with your
dietitian hat on?
Speaker 1 (50:41):
mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (50:41):
Go for it, hannah well, I mean, I was just
thinking of, I guess, theIntruder of eating book that I
mentioned right at the verystart.
I think that was Quite a solidfoundation for me and, as Sarah
mentioned as well, the intuitiveeating workbook is also a
really good results because it'sgot those, you know, that space
where you can write down yourown experiences and reflect on
(51:04):
it and really work throughThrough it as a process.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
Yeah, Perfect, sarah.
Did you have anything youwanted to add in terms of
resources?
Speaker 2 (51:15):
Yeah, I found Evelyn Treboly's Instagram account and
YouTube channel really valuablecool and I think people will
find following her really usefulwhen they're not sure if
something's a diet or not.
For example, she's done a poston noom, the app that Markets
(51:37):
itself as a lifestyleintervention but really there is
to be potentially controversial.
It is a dieting app but.
But she explains why it's adieting app.
But she also has done reallyshort, one minute or less Videos
on what is intuitive eating.
(51:57):
And something else that I'vevalued about Evelyn's Instagram
account and YouTube channel,especially during the pandemic,
is she does a nice job of sayingit's okay to Be flexible and
how you fit intuitive eating inyour life, especially around the
(52:18):
stigma that can happen withpeople who use canned foods and
frozen foods To feed themselves.
There's a stigma that if you eatthose things that's bad, and
there's a lot of freshest bestMessaging out there, but Evelyn
helps us feel okay about that.
The frozen vegetables and thefrozen fruit and our freezer are
(52:40):
Just as nutritious as the freshstuff that you're paying twice
as much for in winter time,right?
So that has been one of thecriticisms of the intuitive
eating.
That I think is important toacknowledge is that it could be
criticized for being only forpeople who are privileged,
particularly financially, butalso people who are in more
(53:03):
socially acceptable bodies.
In whatever way.
So I did want to acknowledgethat I do.
I'm aware of the privilege thatthat someone needs to have to
make this more accessible tothem right very important point
Fed.
Fed is best, and If all youhave is the two-minute noodles
(53:26):
this week, and that is okay.
Speaker 1 (53:29):
That's right.
That's right.
It's not a light bulb, it's nota light switch on or off, it's.
It's kind of more of a dimmer,if you know.
And there's somewhere betweenyou just have to find that place
where you can be and do thebest you can.
Eating what's available andaffordable is entirely
acceptable.
Sarah and Hannah, again, I knowI've just been, you know, like
(53:50):
just gushing all over you, but Ijust really appreciate how you
approach this topic.
It's very real, it's verythoughtful, it's very rooted in
science and it's about reallyapproaching life in a healthy,
healthy way.
So I'm Extremely grateful forthis time.
It's been extremely enjoyable.
So thank you so much forjoining me.
Speaker 3 (54:13):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (54:16):
And at one hour of stuff.
I hope that was okay with youall, but oh my gosh, that was so
good.
Thank you, thank you.
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