November 17, 2023 • 32 mins
In this episode, I am thrilled to welcome Dr. Shinobu Kitayama, a distinguished psychology professor at the University of Michigan. Dr. Kitayama leads the Culture & Cognition Lab, where his groundbreaking research has uncovered valuable insights into the mind, culture, and well-being. We discuss how Western cultural norms often emphasize an active, positive self, setting unique expectations for aging. While these norms can be beneficial, they also risk creating a mismatch with the realities of aging. In our discussion, Dr. Kitayama enlightens us on these cultural impacts and introduces successful aging practices from various cultures. These insights pave the way for a richer, healthier perspective on aging, where wisdom and experience are in harmony with our evolving selves. Tune in to discover how integrating global aging philosophies can transform and enhance our journey through our midlife years and beyond.
Resources and Links;
Dr. Kityama's Culture and Cognition Lab
Culture and Wellbeing in Late Adulthood: Theory and Evidence
Varieties of interdependence and the emergence of the Modern West: Toward the globalizing of psychology
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Our names again to make sure that I've got it right
.
I'll leave it on when I recordyour intro, right?
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Shinabu Kijima Kijima .
Is that good?
Okay, yes, All right.
Well, I'm really excited tohave you on the show.
So welcome to the show, welcometo the show.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Thank you, thank you, I'm excited.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
I am very excited as well.
I am very excited as well.
Could you start by just givingus some background, how you got
on this path to exploringculture, aging and movie?
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Yeah, Well, I'm originally from Japan.
I grew up in Japan, I went tocollege in Japan and I came to
the United States, actually toMichigan, to study psychology in
graduate school.
Now, of course, I studypsychology in graduate school,
(00:52):
but also I experienced lots ofcultural shocks.
That is, I found many aspectsof American culture a little bit
puzzling and interesting, forsure, and that really motivated
me to study how culture mightget into the body and the brain
(01:17):
and the skin to form andinfluence our ways of thinking,
feeling and so on.
And now I'm getting older.
Unfortunately, or fortunately,that brought me into this
important topic of aging, howaging might vary across
(01:40):
different cultural contexts andwhat these cultural insights
might tell us about currentunderstanding of aging process
in psychology and itsneighboring field.
Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
That's why I want you to readit.
It was just so interestingbeforehand the differences and
(02:03):
the insights that you gained andshared.
So could you start by tellingus a little bit?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
about Western culture .
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, western culture .
One thing that amazed me when Icame here is that people are
very, very enthusiastic, andthat doesn't really surprise me
when I interact with my, say,cohort, just the same age
graduate students, so evenundergraduates.
(02:32):
Young kids are supposed to beenthusiastic and positive and
always thrilled to do a lot ofdifferent things, but many of my
professors are like that.
Well, how come?
You guys are older and supposedto be wiser and more relaxed
(02:55):
and broadly encompassing widefield, and if you become so
myopic by being excited, how canyou be more positive and wise
and how can you educate youngfolks like myself?
(03:19):
Of course, I didn't say that tomy advisors, but the very fact
that many of my young, olderfolks, particularly my advisors
and professors, are soenthusiastic and so positive
make me feel, oh, this is great,this is such a great culture.
(03:43):
But at the same time, that waspuzzling to me as well.
And now, in the meantime, for30 years or so, I didn't study
aging, but when I came up withthis idea, well, when we
encountered this problem ofaging in different cultural
contexts, this initialpuzzlement came back to me and
(04:09):
just I began asking whether thatinitial impression might carry
some interesting theoreticalinsight.
So for a long time we arguedthat in American middle class,
mostly European American culture, there's a strong belief of the
(04:32):
self as an independent entity.
You have preferences, you haveattitudes, you have internal
attributes, maybe personality,maybe motivations.
Those internal attributes thatdefine the self are very, very
(04:53):
important.
We call it independent self.
Now, independent self doesn'tmean that people are asocial,
surely not anti-social.
Simply, this view encouragedpeople to use internal
attributes to form socialrelationships.
(05:13):
So, for example, you may chooseyour friends, or you may choose
your spouse, and so on.
So even social relationshipsoftentimes may be based on this
view of the self as independent.
In this cultural context Now,given this point of view,
(05:34):
positive enthusiasm and beingyoung seem to make sense.
That is, those are positivethings and you really have to
utilize your positive attitudes,positive dispositions, to
organize your behavior, approachto other people, promote your
(05:56):
goals and do everything quiteright by interacting with others
as equals.
So that's ideal scenario inAmerican cultural context.
So to interact with youngerstudents or to interact with
younger colleagues, even if youare getting older and you know
(06:19):
it at some level.
You know your knee is hurtingnow in a way that did not before
, and yet this culture demandsthat you energize yourself and
you approach others and youengage with other people in very
, very enthusiastic way.
(06:40):
That's a cultural recipe offorming social relationships.
So, okay, that's good, you know,perfect culture, except for the
fact that, as a function of age, oftentimes your body and
sometimes brain decline, showsome clear signature, clear
(07:03):
signs of decline, and so thereare some dissonance.
So that was one interestingpossibility we wanted to explore
.
So we looked into some existingdata and we actually did
empirical studies as well, andwhat we are finding is that, on
(07:25):
the one hand, as a function ofage, many Americans seem to seek
positivity, positive energy,enthusiasm and to try to stay
young, but at the same time,this seemed to entail some
negative consequences, sometimesvery negative consequences.
(07:48):
That is, it's very hardoftentimes to catch up with this
ideal, which can diminish yourpositive personality or even
your sense of meaning in life.
So that was a major thesis weput forward and we did so.
(08:13):
That's an interesting virtue,interesting thing.
A cultural comparison can do.
But really, knowing othercultures, people may say, yeah,
that's how things go, how elsecan that be?
But of course, when I initiallycame here, I was stunned that
(08:38):
people are doing this.
So we went back to theliterature in East Asia and
tried to see how aging mightfigure out in that cultural
context, and for some time wehave argued that instead of
independence, actually EastAsian culture seems to emphasize
(09:03):
interdependence.
So it's not really you as aperson that is driving the car,
but really it's the car, socialrelationship and groups are some
surrounding context that'sdriving you.
So people are interdependentwith the surrounding social
(09:28):
relationships and thisinterdependence is really
essential.
Maybe you are social roles,maybe you are social status,
maybe peer expectations orparental expectations or
whatever those fitting in tosocial expectations.
(09:49):
Role expectations is seen asfundamentally defining the self.
So who you are is defined bysocial roles and you are worse
is defined by your capability tomaking do adjustment to a
different social context.
(10:10):
So that's very different viewof identity and self.
Now let's apply this to aging.
Now, given this view of theself, it's just okay and
actually it indicates somevirtue to make adjustment to
(10:31):
different social roles, whichare oftentimes age graded.
So when you are young, it'sjust perfectly fine to be crazy
and to be active, to beenthusiastic and middle with
myopic.
That's completely fine andactually desirable.
(10:55):
But as you get older, well, youhave to make adjustment.
By the time you become a parent, for example, you'd better to
have some social roles which areappreciated, acknowledged in
society, and also you ought tobe able to take care of your kid
(11:19):
.
How can you take care of yourkids if you are acting like just
a mere equal?
If you are in some waycaretakers, you have to play the
role of a model so that kidscan see and maybe imitate and
learn from, and then maybe youclimb the ladder in your company
(11:47):
or whatever, and eventually youhave to retire and then very
different roles may come in.
That is what's the point ofreally actively engaging in
everything when you have toretire.
Now you have to create, figureout new stage in your life.
(12:09):
And now, given this surelyJapanese age as well, no
question about this, knee couldhurt and all of maybe heart
conditions may decline and so on.
And this age-related declinemight be less impactful, less
(12:33):
damaging, because of thiswillingness, willingness to make
adjustment, and cultural virtueattached to this adjustment.
And we found initial evidenceindicating that, as a function
of age, there is no realevidence that people try to seek
(12:56):
positivity or enthusiasm andcorrespondingly, there's much
less decline of positivepersonality aspects or meaning
in life.
So that's essentially thearticle that you mentioned in a
(13:17):
single shot.
I appreciate that so much.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
It affected me.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
It's funny that you said the car.
I had this experience in thecar.
It sounds funny.
I'm going to get you on the carthis week.
You know, I've kind of beensocialized to first thing in the
morning and then accomplishedthings for my job, you know, and
I give my daughter a ride towork.
I admittedly have felt like Igot to get my daughter to work,
(13:46):
so I can get to my real work, myreal work or to her school, I
should say.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
But now it struck me like a thunderbolt.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
No this ride this car , this together with her is the
biggest thing of the day, it'snot getting past the real.
This is what I'm at at.
Oh yeah, sure, sure, sure, thatcan be real and that can be
just as important.
You know, there's no need toseparate your personal agenda
(14:22):
from social expectations To agreater extent.
Those two may be more matched,more fused in Asian cultural
context.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Yeah, another thing that really helps me was how you
talked about high arousal,positive emotions.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Could you talk a little bit more?
Speaker 2 (14:45):
about that please.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Oh yeah, so high arousal, positive emotions such
as enthusiasm, joy and pride,those are really important
emotions and you know especiallyAmerican middle class culture.
Those emotions are valid verystrongly, in part because they
(15:10):
demonstrate personal virtue thatyou have.
If you have positive self,positive energy under the skin
somewhere in your body,supposedly your spirit is so
positive, this positivity demandexpression.
(15:31):
So showing enthusiasm, showingjoy and showing pride is very
important and very important andinterestingly that's a cultural
thing.
People anticipate you toexpress those high arousal
(15:52):
emotions if you are a decentperson.
So when I came here I surelydidn't have this cultural demand
internalized in me.
So, to add, the end of the daypeople ask how are you doing?
And I was a little bit toohonest in saying, oh, I'm tired,
(16:16):
that didn't work, that didn'twork, that's surely that
elicited some degree of empathyor sympathy forever.
But then say, oh, yeah, takecare, see you tomorrow.
But when you do culturallyappropriate, saying showing
(16:38):
enthusiasm yeah, this was a longday, but I feel very
enthusiastic about this project,I get just, maybe just a glass
of wine tonight, but I'll getback to this project.
That's exactly what I want todo.
So that's the right thing tosay.
And initially I forced myselfto pretend that I have this
(17:01):
positive energy.
But that make you fit intosocial expectations and that
make you fit into the naturalflow of social relationship and
that makes you a decent person,as seen by others for sure.
But eventually you begin tofool yourself that you are a
(17:22):
decent person in American style.
So eventually I internalizethis cultural value.
So I feel I'm prettycomfortable and surely more
natural to me to say, even whenI'm tired, I'm excited, I'm
thrilled and so on Okay, sothat's cultural demand.
(17:47):
That's very, very strong andAmericans appear to have real
problem when they fail to catchup to this cultural demand.
So, for example, I don't thinkwe reported this finding in this
(18:07):
particular article, but we areinvestigating physiological
impact of experiencing negativeemotions in American culture and
Japanese culture.
Okay, so you know, everybodyfeels sad, everybody feel
frustrated and so on, but somepeople do experience such
(18:31):
negative emotions morefrequently.
Now, interesting finding isthat, among European American
people, if you know that you arefeeling those negative emotions
that seem to have negativeimpacts on your biological
(18:54):
health, so the level whereinflammation goes up and
immunosuppression seem to kickin, that is, you know, basically
, negative emotions seem to harmyour biological health,
(19:15):
presumably.
Mechanism is that it's sostressful, in addition to being
negative.
You know I'm failing to live upto this cultural ideal of being
enthusiastic, being positiveand so on.
So experience negative emotionis negative for sure, but for
(19:37):
Americans it appears to bedoubly negative in the sense
that emotions are negative.
But in addition to that,experiencing negative emotions
is culturally inappropriate,indicating that you are not a
decent court and court person asdefined by this culture.
(20:00):
So you know, generally peopletry to achieve positivity.
That may be true, but surelythat's true in American culture.
But more than that, agingbecome very complicated.
Very interesting in thiscontext because, you know, even
(20:24):
even Americans seem to know thatthis pursuit of positive
emotions must be balanced well,if there's, there are some other
priorities.
You know, when you are young.
You have jobs, you haveovations, you have all sorts of
(20:45):
things that you have to do andsometimes in your job you have
to deal with very unpleasantcolleagues because it's
necessary and that's part ofyour job and that's maybe
necessary to, you know, makeadvancement in your personal
agenda, and so on.
So, to a degree, when you areyoung, this pursuit of
(21:11):
positivity is balanced by someimmediate need of life.
However, as a function of age,people begin to realize that
life is short, life left isshort and you really can afford
(21:34):
to focusing on your immediatepresent and, as a consequence,
this pursuit of positivity maybecome unhinged.
That's why Laura Custon said inher theory of social-emotional
selectivity in aging so whenpeople are young you have to
(21:57):
have a longer perspective, sothat positivity in the present
is the only one aspect thatneeds to be countered by and
balanced by many otherlonger-term perspective
considerations that are required.
However, when you get older,especially after retirement, say
after retirement age like 60 or65, whatever people become
(22:23):
really enthusiastic about theirown enthusiasm, that is, this
search for positivity becomemuch stronger than before.
And surely we found evidence forthis, and evidence is very
abundant, but much of theevidence is limited largely to
(22:45):
American middle-class cultureand to some extent Western
European culture.
Now we reviewed in this articlewhat is known or what has been
found in Asian culture and theevidence is much more mixed.
So, as a function of age,people pursue more positivity or
(23:11):
try to feel positive emotions.
We found very clear evidencesupporting this kind of
possibility for Americans, butvirtually none among Japanese
subjects we tested.
So basically this and also, bythe way, I'm sorry, I'm a little
confusing.
(23:31):
I now realize.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
No, no, you're doing great.
This is wonderful.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yeah, I mentioned, there's a double negative of
negative emotions amongAmericans and this effect simply
doesn't exist among Japanese.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Wow, wow.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah, experience negative emotions is unpleasant,
didn't you know that?
And that's it.
That's it.
There's no need to be stressedout just because you are feeling
negative.
So we are getting that kind ofwave of thought in combination.
Feeling positive is a culturaldemand that is internalized
(24:14):
among many Americans and that'sokay and probably that works out
very well, until you fail tolive up to that cultural ideal,
which sometimes happens for somepeople, almost inevitably when
(24:37):
they get older.
Does it make sense?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yes, it makes a lot of sense and it really struck me
too as I read it.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
I'm surprised I didn't.
I wasn't aware of this now, butI'm thankful that I heard this
from you, dr Kijama.
It is such an expectation thata lot of people don't realize it
.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
And we are expected to be positive and energetic
throughout.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
And we feel bad if we are.
But that's not what reality ofAGM is.
It's our body, like you said.
Our brains decline.
We have different social rolesthat are more important.
And to allow ourselves to feelthat it seems like it really
contributes to a healthier wayof being.
Agm is such a daunting task andnow my general point would be
(25:43):
that every culture has a virtue.
Positivity can be a virtue, orbalancing, like in the end
emphasized in Asian culture,could be a virtue.
But I would say, if virtuebecome a demand imperative, that
(26:10):
can backfire.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
So positivity, enthusiasm, that's really good,
very adaptive, and in fact Imyself try to be enthusiastic,
positive and proactive, activelyengaging with my younger
colleagues and my graduatestudents or undergraduates, and
(26:37):
I do appreciate if and when theytreat me like they are equals,
with equal degree of enthusiasm,and that's a virtue, no
question about this, and Ireally value this aspect of
American life that is largelymissing in Japan or East Asia.
(26:59):
But you know what you imposedcan be a burden.
Yes, so you know.
I think it's very important tokeep that point in mind and just
to make the point clear.
I'm not saying that aging inEast Asia is much easier or much
(27:21):
healthier, Just on the contrary.
You know, virtue emphasized inEast Asia say, for example,
adjustment to age-based,age-graded expectations that can
be a burden too.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
When pushing it to the extreme, especially when you
are young, when you arepsychologically young, your
health is perfectly fine and youknow you are capable and you
are willing to positively engagewith other people and do
whatever you can do tocontribute.
(28:00):
You know you want to do it andactually this cultural virtue
may get harder to live a fulllife under those circumstances.
So again, I think Asian virtueof balance or adjustment, pushed
(28:22):
in the extreme, can be a burdenas well.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Right so, but I think it's a good thing to know that
if that's good about yourculture and if that can be a
potential limitation of it.
So now, my general impressionof American aging is that this
emphasis on positivity maybecome a little bit excessive,
(28:49):
to the point where that became aburden to many people, and then
surely vice versa in many casesin East Asia.
Yes, so well said.
Could you talk about lowarousal, emotions and
(29:10):
differences?
Speaker 2 (29:10):
there as well.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Yeah, generally literature shows that low
arousal emotions, like calmnessor relaxation, those are
appreciated more in East Asia.
So that may make aging processeasier to some extent if your
(29:37):
body or your health make it morechallenging to experience, for
example, enthusiasm in otherhigh arousal emotions.
And it is perfectly fineculturally to feel calm and to
relax and to stay peaceful andthat's a culturally a cultural
(29:58):
virtue, culturally appreciated,sanctioned emotional state.
Evidence is very clear thatthose low arousal emotions are
valued more in East Asiacompared to North America.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Yeah, I found that really interesting.
I also found it reallyinteresting about personality
traits and how those changeacross aging.
Could you tell us a little bitmore about that?
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Yeah, sure.
So that's a very complicatedstory.
It's not easy.
It's not easy to study becauseyou just cannot follow a single
individual in their lifetime.
Now some people try to do it,but it's still nonetheless.
It's very, very challenging.
So what we did was to uselongitudinal data for five to 10
(30:50):
years and so, for example, ifyou are, say, 30 years of age in
the first testing, by the timeyou are tested in the second
time, you become 40, right?
So 30-year-old become 40, 40become 50, and so on.
There's tremendous amount ofindividual variation.
(31:10):
But if you combine those agetrajectories from different life
points, you can kind ofextrapolate, that is, you can
infer overall age trend acrosstime.
So you can use some statisticalmagic that is, statistical
(31:30):
method to accomplish this.
And that's exactly what we did.
And what you find is thatthere's very clear decline of
conscientiousness, extra virginand openness to experience, that
is, some kind of openness tonovelty and so on, toward the
(31:53):
end of life among Americans.
And that's consistent with thenotion that those people
experience some real problems inhandling cultural pressure to
be enthusiastic and so on.
Japanese showed no evidence ofthis, absolutely no evidence of
(32:16):
this, and very similar patternwe found in some aspects of, say
, meaning in life.
Meaning in life has manyaspects.
For example, you feel your lifeis very meaningful when you
(32:37):
think that you are experiencingsome kind of growth as a person,
or really purpose in life isfundamental in maintaining the
sense that your life hasdirection, has organization,
(32:58):
some structure.
Now, very, very interestingly,americans show very sharp
decline of personal growth,sense of personal growth and
also sense of purpose in lifeafter, say, 60 or surely 65.
And that's considered to be theindemitable thing.
(33:24):
What's the point of maintainingpurpose when there's no time
left?
That seems like a completelysensible finding, given human
biology.
But actually when we looked atthe data, Japanese don't show
(33:44):
this effect.
Japanese maintain overall, onaverage, keep feeling that they
are still growing even thoughthey are getting older, or they
have some purpose in life evenwhen they get older.
Now what kind of purpose dothey have At the end of the day?
(34:08):
We don't know, because wedidn't ask those questions.
However, it seems very plausibleto me that many Japanese would
feel, yeah, my grandkids weremaintaining my family lineage,
(34:29):
were creating some cohesivecommunity in my neighborhood.
Those become purpose in lifeand also those kind of
age-graded tasks may make youfeel that you are showing some
degree of growth, even thoughthe contribution that you're
(34:53):
making might be much less nowthan before.
So, anyway, those are veryinteresting consequences of the
cultural demand for positivityfor Americans, which is not
really positive, actuallynegative.
(35:13):
And those effects appear to benearly completely missing in
Japanese, consistent with thenotion that this demand for
enthusiasm, youth and youthfulenthusiasm, is also missing in
(35:33):
Japanese cultural context.
Yeah, that is so interestingSomething to really think about
talking about being 60 and ourlisteners.
My listeners are midlife andkind of thinking about that
trajectory.
It's really helpful as we'retrying to get on that shit, live
a meaningful life and to keepon that trajectory.
(35:54):
And I hear you saying that it'sinterdependent, interdependent,
intergenerational.
So can you talk a little bitabout how we, as midlifers,
might kind of strengthen ourrelationship with older
generations as part of this.
(36:16):
Well, that's interesting.
Some people argue that, as afunction of age, people may
become more interdependent,because personal agenda may
become less relevant as afunction of age.
But surprisingly, we found verylittle evidence for something
(36:40):
like this.
Now my general hypothesis,which I call it hypothesis
merely because evidence is very,very weak, but generally seem
to me that cultural effect isvery, very prominent in middle
(37:05):
age and become weaker as afunction of age.
And why is that?
Well, we don't know.
One possibility is that in themiddle age you really have to
use culture as a resource andnothing at your life.
So well, one metaphor I proposeis a metaphor of culture as a
(37:31):
game like baseball or football.
And you know, when you are veryactive in life, you have to
participate in the game very,very actively and, conversely,
you culture influence yourpsychology very, very strongly
(37:53):
and sometimes in very dramaticway.
Now to add the end while inolder age, especially after
retirement, this demands to playculture as a game may diminish
and, as a consequence, impact ofculture may become less.
So, to some extent, all the ageyou know, elderies in different
(38:16):
cultures may become moresimilar.
But that's just my speculation,something somebody need to
investigate.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Yeah, I love that analogy.
That is really helpful.
So much to gain from this.
Just appreciate your time somuch.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
Thank you, this was really exciting oh.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
I'm so happy to hear that.
I hear that, yeah, like I said,it's been a meaningful meeting
and I'm excited to share this.
Oh, thank you.
I think I have my mostdifficult question coming up for
you.
You know, you studied and livedthis for probably decades.
What are some key takeawaysthat you would, our listeners,
(38:58):
take away from your work and ourconversation today?
Speaker 1 (39:04):
It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
You've said a lot.
I don't know if there's anopen-ended opportunity, if you
had other ways to share.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Yeah, key takeaway is something like this.
We often constructualizedculture has something like
clothes, or some wear sportsshirts.
You know, in some culture youhave to wear sports shirts, some
(39:34):
other cultures you have to wearsomething else.
So you know, once you strip theperson and make him naked,
everybody is the same.
So that's one view of cultureand human mind.
Now, another very different viewis that you know you are person
(39:56):
, maybe shaped by culture.
So, for example, you know, ifyou use chopstick, your
perception, your motorcoordination change very
systematically.
Now, if that's merely chopstick, as opposed to knives and the
forks, it's not a big deal.
(40:18):
However, culture is here toorganize your life and almost
your biology, and your mind ismeant to utilize those cultural
resources to learn good life andsurvive.
So your mind maybe transformedin something different way how
(40:44):
you think about things, how youfeel about things and how you,
what you try to do and how youwant to do it.
All this may undergo somesystematic transformation, which
amounts to saying that culturebecome part of you.
So I think that's the biggesttakeaway.
(41:05):
And now, one implication ofthis is that this process of
psychological transformation byculture may have significant
impact on the aging process.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Really great.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Really great.
Okay, really thoughtful, reallythoughtful.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Yeah, thanks so much.
I have one last question foryou.
Yes, For those of you for thoseof you listeners, and for me
for the readings or warresources what would you
recommend?
What would you?
Speaker 2 (41:37):
recommend Websites books.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Yeah, yeah, that's a great question.
I would say a few now.
Book, I want to write one and Iwant to recommend it.
I don't have, do you?
If you go, if you go to mywebsite, there's a general
(42:00):
description of this field calledcultural psychology, and I try
to describe exactly what thefield tried to accomplish.
Probably that's a good way tostart learning a bit about this
field.
And now, if you are interestedin cultural differences in aging
(42:27):
, this American psychologyspeaks maybe good, you know a
little bit, you know academic,but hopefully that's not too
difficult to read.
So that may be a goodintroduction.
And also I want to emphasizethat East and West is only one
(42:51):
segment of massive culturalvariations that you can find on
the globe.
So just I'm saying, okay,westerners are like this and
Asians are like this.
That doesn't mean that, youknow, nobody else is relevant,
that's right.
Very contrary, you know we arecovering only tiny segment of
(43:14):
the people on the globe.
So actually, my current agenda,or more project right now, which
we are doing with theenthusiasm, is to go beyond East
and the West and very, verylittle research exists,
(43:40):
especially in connection toaging.
So I have very little to talkabout this in the context of
aging research, but nonetheless,it's very important to explain
the school and to realize thatsurely West is only part of the
story and East Asia can be addedto enrich the story, but still
(44:01):
in combination.
This story of East and the Westis limited, severely limited,
and that need to be expanded.
If people are interested inthis effort of expanding the
field, we have another Americanpsychologist piece published
last year entitled Varieties ofInterdependence.
(44:27):
So again, that's a scary paper,but that's a review paper.
I try to write, we try to writein a way that is highly
accessible to a general,intelligent audience.
So that's American Psychologist2022.
(44:48):
First off, that is me, so I'msure people can find it easily.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
Yeah, I will definitely put those links in
the description of this episode,so this episode can find those,
and I want to echo what yousaid, that you said that he is
very acrobatic and professional,but also accessible, and I
really, really appreciate that.
Thank you, well, this has beenwonderful.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
And I appreciate your time Just tremendously.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
Thank you very much, Kyle.
It was such a pleasure to havethis conversation with you
Wonderful.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
Thank you again, thank you.
I'll stop here.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
Okay.
Our names again to make sure that I've got it right
.
I'll leave it on when I recordyour intro, right?
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Shinabu Kijima Kijima .
Is that good?
Okay, yes, All right.
Well, I'm really excited tohave you on the show.
So welcome to the show, welcometo the show.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Thank you, thank you, I'm excited.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
I am very excited as well.
I am very excited as well.
Could you start by just givingus some background, how you got
on this path to exploringculture, aging and movie?
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Yeah, Well, I'm originally from Japan.
I grew up in Japan, I went tocollege in Japan and I came to
the United States, actually toMichigan, to study psychology in
graduate school.
Now, of course, I studypsychology in graduate school,
(00:52):
but also I experienced lots ofcultural shocks.
That is, I found many aspectsof American culture a little bit
puzzling and interesting, forsure, and that really motivated
me to study how culture mightget into the body and the brain
(01:17):
and the skin to form andinfluence our ways of thinking,
feeling and so on.
And now I'm getting older.
Unfortunately, or fortunately,that brought me into this
important topic of aging, howaging might vary across
(01:40):
different cultural contexts andwhat these cultural insights
might tell us about currentunderstanding of aging process
in psychology and itsneighboring field.
Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
That's why I want you to readit.
It was just so interestingbeforehand the differences and
(02:03):
the insights that you gained andshared.
So could you start by tellingus a little bit?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
about Western culture .
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, western culture .
One thing that amazed me when Icame here is that people are
very, very enthusiastic, andthat doesn't really surprise me
when I interact with my, say,cohort, just the same age
graduate students, so evenundergraduates.
(02:32):
Young kids are supposed to beenthusiastic and positive and
always thrilled to do a lot ofdifferent things, but many of my
professors are like that.
Well, how come?
You guys are older and supposedto be wiser and more relaxed
(02:55):
and broadly encompassing widefield, and if you become so
myopic by being excited, how canyou be more positive and wise
and how can you educate youngfolks like myself?
(03:19):
Of course, I didn't say that tomy advisors, but the very fact
that many of my young, olderfolks, particularly my advisors
and professors, are soenthusiastic and so positive
make me feel, oh, this is great,this is such a great culture.
(03:43):
But at the same time, that waspuzzling to me as well.
And now, in the meantime, for30 years or so, I didn't study
aging, but when I came up withthis idea, well, when we
encountered this problem ofaging in different cultural
contexts, this initialpuzzlement came back to me and
(04:09):
just I began asking whether thatinitial impression might carry
some interesting theoreticalinsight.
So for a long time we arguedthat in American middle class,
mostly European American culture, there's a strong belief of the
(04:32):
self as an independent entity.
You have preferences, you haveattitudes, you have internal
attributes, maybe personality,maybe motivations.
Those internal attributes thatdefine the self are very, very
(04:53):
important.
We call it independent self.
Now, independent self doesn'tmean that people are asocial,
surely not anti-social.
Simply, this view encouragedpeople to use internal
attributes to form socialrelationships.
(05:13):
So, for example, you may chooseyour friends, or you may choose
your spouse, and so on.
So even social relationshipsoftentimes may be based on this
view of the self as independent.
In this cultural context Now,given this point of view,
(05:34):
positive enthusiasm and beingyoung seem to make sense.
That is, those are positivethings and you really have to
utilize your positive attitudes,positive dispositions, to
organize your behavior, approachto other people, promote your
(05:56):
goals and do everything quiteright by interacting with others
as equals.
So that's ideal scenario inAmerican cultural context.
So to interact with youngerstudents or to interact with
younger colleagues, even if youare getting older and you know
(06:19):
it at some level.
You know your knee is hurtingnow in a way that did not before
, and yet this culture demandsthat you energize yourself and
you approach others and youengage with other people in very
, very enthusiastic way.
(06:40):
That's a cultural recipe offorming social relationships.
So, okay, that's good, you know,perfect culture, except for the
fact that, as a function of age, oftentimes your body and
sometimes brain decline, showsome clear signature, clear
(07:03):
signs of decline, and so thereare some dissonance.
So that was one interestingpossibility we wanted to explore
.
So we looked into some existingdata and we actually did
empirical studies as well, andwhat we are finding is that, on
(07:25):
the one hand, as a function ofage, many Americans seem to seek
positivity, positive energy,enthusiasm and to try to stay
young, but at the same time,this seemed to entail some
negative consequences, sometimesvery negative consequences.
(07:48):
That is, it's very hardoftentimes to catch up with this
ideal, which can diminish yourpositive personality or even
your sense of meaning in life.
So that was a major thesis weput forward and we did so.
(08:13):
That's an interesting virtue,interesting thing.
A cultural comparison can do.
But really, knowing othercultures, people may say, yeah,
that's how things go, how elsecan that be?
But of course, when I initiallycame here, I was stunned that
(08:38):
people are doing this.
So we went back to theliterature in East Asia and
tried to see how aging mightfigure out in that cultural
context, and for some time wehave argued that instead of
independence, actually EastAsian culture seems to emphasize
(09:03):
interdependence.
So it's not really you as aperson that is driving the car,
but really it's the car, socialrelationship and groups are some
surrounding context that'sdriving you.
So people are interdependentwith the surrounding social
(09:28):
relationships and thisinterdependence is really
essential.
Maybe you are social roles,maybe you are social status,
maybe peer expectations orparental expectations or
whatever those fitting in tosocial expectations.
(09:49):
Role expectations is seen asfundamentally defining the self.
So who you are is defined bysocial roles and you are worse
is defined by your capability tomaking do adjustment to a
different social context.
(10:10):
So that's very different viewof identity and self.
Now let's apply this to aging.
Now, given this view of theself, it's just okay and
actually it indicates somevirtue to make adjustment to
(10:31):
different social roles, whichare oftentimes age graded.
So when you are young, it'sjust perfectly fine to be crazy
and to be active, to beenthusiastic and middle with
myopic.
That's completely fine andactually desirable.
(10:55):
But as you get older, well, youhave to make adjustment.
By the time you become a parent, for example, you'd better to
have some social roles which areappreciated, acknowledged in
society, and also you ought tobe able to take care of your kid
(11:19):
.
How can you take care of yourkids if you are acting like just
a mere equal?
If you are in some waycaretakers, you have to play the
role of a model so that kidscan see and maybe imitate and
learn from, and then maybe youclimb the ladder in your company
(11:47):
or whatever, and eventually youhave to retire and then very
different roles may come in.
That is what's the point ofreally actively engaging in
everything when you have toretire.
Now you have to create, figureout new stage in your life.
(12:09):
And now, given this surelyJapanese age as well, no
question about this, knee couldhurt and all of maybe heart
conditions may decline and so on.
And this age-related declinemight be less impactful, less
(12:33):
damaging, because of thiswillingness, willingness to make
adjustment, and cultural virtueattached to this adjustment.
And we found initial evidenceindicating that, as a function
of age, there is no realevidence that people try to seek
(12:56):
positivity or enthusiasm andcorrespondingly, there's much
less decline of positivepersonality aspects or meaning
in life.
So that's essentially thearticle that you mentioned in a
(13:17):
single shot.
I appreciate that so much.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
It affected me.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
It's funny that you said the car.
I had this experience in thecar.
It sounds funny.
I'm going to get you on the carthis week.
You know, I've kind of beensocialized to first thing in the
morning and then accomplishedthings for my job, you know, and
I give my daughter a ride towork.
I admittedly have felt like Igot to get my daughter to work,
(13:46):
so I can get to my real work, myreal work or to her school, I
should say.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
But now it struck me like a thunderbolt.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
No this ride this car , this together with her is the
biggest thing of the day, it'snot getting past the real.
This is what I'm at at.
Oh yeah, sure, sure, sure, thatcan be real and that can be
just as important.
You know, there's no need toseparate your personal agenda
(14:22):
from social expectations To agreater extent.
Those two may be more matched,more fused in Asian cultural
context.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Yeah, another thing that really helps me was how you
talked about high arousal,positive emotions.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Could you talk a little bit more?
Speaker 2 (14:45):
about that please.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Oh yeah, so high arousal, positive emotions such
as enthusiasm, joy and pride,those are really important
emotions and you know especiallyAmerican middle class culture.
Those emotions are valid verystrongly, in part because they
(15:10):
demonstrate personal virtue thatyou have.
If you have positive self,positive energy under the skin
somewhere in your body,supposedly your spirit is so
positive, this positivity demandexpression.
(15:31):
So showing enthusiasm, showingjoy and showing pride is very
important and very important andinterestingly that's a cultural
thing.
People anticipate you toexpress those high arousal
(15:52):
emotions if you are a decentperson.
So when I came here I surelydidn't have this cultural demand
internalized in me.
So, to add, the end of the daypeople ask how are you doing?
And I was a little bit toohonest in saying, oh, I'm tired,
(16:16):
that didn't work, that didn'twork, that's surely that
elicited some degree of empathyor sympathy forever.
But then say, oh, yeah, takecare, see you tomorrow.
But when you do culturallyappropriate, saying showing
(16:38):
enthusiasm yeah, this was a longday, but I feel very
enthusiastic about this project,I get just, maybe just a glass
of wine tonight, but I'll getback to this project.
That's exactly what I want todo.
So that's the right thing tosay.
And initially I forced myselfto pretend that I have this
(17:01):
positive energy.
But that make you fit intosocial expectations and that
make you fit into the naturalflow of social relationship and
that makes you a decent person,as seen by others for sure.
But eventually you begin tofool yourself that you are a
(17:22):
decent person in American style.
So eventually I internalizethis cultural value.
So I feel I'm prettycomfortable and surely more
natural to me to say, even whenI'm tired, I'm excited, I'm
thrilled and so on Okay, sothat's cultural demand.
(17:47):
That's very, very strong andAmericans appear to have real
problem when they fail to catchup to this cultural demand.
So, for example, I don't thinkwe reported this finding in this
(18:07):
particular article, but we areinvestigating physiological
impact of experiencing negativeemotions in American culture and
Japanese culture.
Okay, so you know, everybodyfeels sad, everybody feel
frustrated and so on, but somepeople do experience such
(18:31):
negative emotions morefrequently.
Now, interesting finding isthat, among European American
people, if you know that you arefeeling those negative emotions
that seem to have negativeimpacts on your biological
(18:54):
health, so the level whereinflammation goes up and
immunosuppression seem to kickin, that is, you know, basically
, negative emotions seem to harmyour biological health,
(19:15):
presumably.
Mechanism is that it's sostressful, in addition to being
negative.
You know I'm failing to live upto this cultural ideal of being
enthusiastic, being positiveand so on.
So experience negative emotionis negative for sure, but for
(19:37):
Americans it appears to bedoubly negative in the sense
that emotions are negative.
But in addition to that,experiencing negative emotions
is culturally inappropriate,indicating that you are not a
decent court and court person asdefined by this culture.
(20:00):
So you know, generally peopletry to achieve positivity.
That may be true, but surelythat's true in American culture.
But more than that, agingbecome very complicated.
Very interesting in thiscontext because, you know, even
(20:24):
even Americans seem to know thatthis pursuit of positive
emotions must be balanced well,if there's, there are some other
priorities.
You know, when you are young.
You have jobs, you haveovations, you have all sorts of
(20:45):
things that you have to do andsometimes in your job you have
to deal with very unpleasantcolleagues because it's
necessary and that's part ofyour job and that's maybe
necessary to, you know, makeadvancement in your personal
agenda, and so on.
So, to a degree, when you areyoung, this pursuit of
(21:11):
positivity is balanced by someimmediate need of life.
However, as a function of age,people begin to realize that
life is short, life left isshort and you really can afford
(21:34):
to focusing on your immediatepresent and, as a consequence,
this pursuit of positivity maybecome unhinged.
That's why Laura Custon said inher theory of social-emotional
selectivity in aging so whenpeople are young you have to
(21:57):
have a longer perspective, sothat positivity in the present
is the only one aspect thatneeds to be countered by and
balanced by many otherlonger-term perspective
considerations that are required.
However, when you get older,especially after retirement, say
after retirement age like 60 or65, whatever people become
(22:23):
really enthusiastic about theirown enthusiasm, that is, this
search for positivity becomemuch stronger than before.
And surely we found evidence forthis, and evidence is very
abundant, but much of theevidence is limited largely to
(22:45):
American middle-class cultureand to some extent Western
European culture.
Now we reviewed in this articlewhat is known or what has been
found in Asian culture and theevidence is much more mixed.
So, as a function of age,people pursue more positivity or
(23:11):
try to feel positive emotions.
We found very clear evidencesupporting this kind of
possibility for Americans, butvirtually none among Japanese
subjects we tested.
So basically this and also, bythe way, I'm sorry, I'm a little
confusing.
(23:31):
I now realize.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
No, no, you're doing great.
This is wonderful.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yeah, I mentioned, there's a double negative of
negative emotions amongAmericans and this effect simply
doesn't exist among Japanese.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Wow, wow.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah, experience negative emotions is unpleasant,
didn't you know that?
And that's it.
That's it.
There's no need to be stressedout just because you are feeling
negative.
So we are getting that kind ofwave of thought in combination.
Feeling positive is a culturaldemand that is internalized
(24:14):
among many Americans and that'sokay and probably that works out
very well, until you fail tolive up to that cultural ideal,
which sometimes happens for somepeople, almost inevitably when
(24:37):
they get older.
Does it make sense?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yes, it makes a lot of sense and it really struck me
too as I read it.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
I'm surprised I didn't.
I wasn't aware of this now, butI'm thankful that I heard this
from you, dr Kijama.
It is such an expectation thata lot of people don't realize it
.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
And we are expected to be positive and energetic
throughout.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
And we feel bad if we are.
But that's not what reality ofAGM is.
It's our body, like you said.
Our brains decline.
We have different social rolesthat are more important.
And to allow ourselves to feelthat it seems like it really
contributes to a healthier wayof being.
Agm is such a daunting task andnow my general point would be
(25:43):
that every culture has a virtue.
Positivity can be a virtue, orbalancing, like in the end
emphasized in Asian culture,could be a virtue.
But I would say, if virtuebecome a demand imperative, that
(26:10):
can backfire.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
So positivity, enthusiasm, that's really good,
very adaptive, and in fact Imyself try to be enthusiastic,
positive and proactive, activelyengaging with my younger
colleagues and my graduatestudents or undergraduates, and
(26:37):
I do appreciate if and when theytreat me like they are equals,
with equal degree of enthusiasm,and that's a virtue, no
question about this, and Ireally value this aspect of
American life that is largelymissing in Japan or East Asia.
(26:59):
But you know what you imposedcan be a burden.
Yes, so you know.
I think it's very important tokeep that point in mind and just
to make the point clear.
I'm not saying that aging inEast Asia is much easier or much
(27:21):
healthier, Just on the contrary.
You know, virtue emphasized inEast Asia say, for example,
adjustment to age-based,age-graded expectations that can
be a burden too.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
When pushing it to the extreme, especially when you
are young, when you arepsychologically young, your
health is perfectly fine and youknow you are capable and you
are willing to positively engagewith other people and do
whatever you can do tocontribute.
(28:00):
You know you want to do it andactually this cultural virtue
may get harder to live a fulllife under those circumstances.
So again, I think Asian virtueof balance or adjustment, pushed
(28:22):
in the extreme, can be a burdenas well.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Right so, but I think it's a good thing to know that
if that's good about yourculture and if that can be a
potential limitation of it.
So now, my general impressionof American aging is that this
emphasis on positivity maybecome a little bit excessive,
(28:49):
to the point where that became aburden to many people, and then
surely vice versa in many casesin East Asia.
Yes, so well said.
Could you talk about lowarousal, emotions and
(29:10):
differences?
Speaker 2 (29:10):
there as well.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Yeah, generally literature shows that low
arousal emotions, like calmnessor relaxation, those are
appreciated more in East Asia.
So that may make aging processeasier to some extent if your
(29:37):
body or your health make it morechallenging to experience, for
example, enthusiasm in otherhigh arousal emotions.
And it is perfectly fineculturally to feel calm and to
relax and to stay peaceful andthat's a culturally a cultural
(29:58):
virtue, culturally appreciated,sanctioned emotional state.
Evidence is very clear thatthose low arousal emotions are
valued more in East Asiacompared to North America.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Yeah, I found that really interesting.
I also found it reallyinteresting about personality
traits and how those changeacross aging.
Could you tell us a little bitmore about that?
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Yeah, sure.
So that's a very complicatedstory.
It's not easy.
It's not easy to study becauseyou just cannot follow a single
individual in their lifetime.
Now some people try to do it,but it's still nonetheless.
It's very, very challenging.
So what we did was to uselongitudinal data for five to 10
(30:50):
years and so, for example, ifyou are, say, 30 years of age in
the first testing, by the timeyou are tested in the second
time, you become 40, right?
So 30-year-old become 40, 40become 50, and so on.
There's tremendous amount ofindividual variation.
(31:10):
But if you combine those agetrajectories from different life
points, you can kind ofextrapolate, that is, you can
infer overall age trend acrosstime.
So you can use some statisticalmagic that is, statistical
(31:30):
method to accomplish this.
And that's exactly what we did.
And what you find is thatthere's very clear decline of
conscientiousness, extra virginand openness to experience, that
is, some kind of openness tonovelty and so on, toward the
(31:53):
end of life among Americans.
And that's consistent with thenotion that those people
experience some real problems inhandling cultural pressure to
be enthusiastic and so on.
Japanese showed no evidence ofthis, absolutely no evidence of
(32:16):
this, and very similar patternwe found in some aspects of, say
, meaning in life.
Meaning in life has manyaspects.
For example, you feel your lifeis very meaningful when you
(32:37):
think that you are experiencingsome kind of growth as a person,
or really purpose in life isfundamental in maintaining the
sense that your life hasdirection, has organization,
(32:58):
some structure.
Now, very, very interestingly,americans show very sharp
decline of personal growth,sense of personal growth and
also sense of purpose in lifeafter, say, 60 or surely 65.
And that's considered to be theindemitable thing.
(33:24):
What's the point of maintainingpurpose when there's no time
left?
That seems like a completelysensible finding, given human
biology.
But actually when we looked atthe data, Japanese don't show
(33:44):
this effect.
Japanese maintain overall, onaverage, keep feeling that they
are still growing even thoughthey are getting older, or they
have some purpose in life evenwhen they get older.
Now what kind of purpose dothey have At the end of the day?
(34:08):
We don't know, because wedidn't ask those questions.
However, it seems very plausibleto me that many Japanese would
feel, yeah, my grandkids weremaintaining my family lineage,
(34:29):
were creating some cohesivecommunity in my neighborhood.
Those become purpose in lifeand also those kind of
age-graded tasks may make youfeel that you are showing some
degree of growth, even thoughthe contribution that you're
(34:53):
making might be much less nowthan before.
So, anyway, those are veryinteresting consequences of the
cultural demand for positivityfor Americans, which is not
really positive, actuallynegative.
(35:13):
And those effects appear to benearly completely missing in
Japanese, consistent with thenotion that this demand for
enthusiasm, youth and youthfulenthusiasm, is also missing in
(35:33):
Japanese cultural context.
Yeah, that is so interestingSomething to really think about
talking about being 60 and ourlisteners.
My listeners are midlife andkind of thinking about that
trajectory.
It's really helpful as we'retrying to get on that shit, live
a meaningful life and to keepon that trajectory.
(35:54):
And I hear you saying that it'sinterdependent, interdependent,
intergenerational.
So can you talk a little bitabout how we, as midlifers,
might kind of strengthen ourrelationship with older
generations as part of this.
(36:16):
Well, that's interesting.
Some people argue that, as afunction of age, people may
become more interdependent,because personal agenda may
become less relevant as afunction of age.
But surprisingly, we found verylittle evidence for something
(36:40):
like this.
Now my general hypothesis,which I call it hypothesis
merely because evidence is very,very weak, but generally seem
to me that cultural effect isvery, very prominent in middle
(37:05):
age and become weaker as afunction of age.
And why is that?
Well, we don't know.
One possibility is that in themiddle age you really have to
use culture as a resource andnothing at your life.
So well, one metaphor I proposeis a metaphor of culture as a
(37:31):
game like baseball or football.
And you know, when you are veryactive in life, you have to
participate in the game very,very actively and, conversely,
you culture influence yourpsychology very, very strongly
(37:53):
and sometimes in very dramaticway.
Now to add the end while inolder age, especially after
retirement, this demands to playculture as a game may diminish
and, as a consequence, impact ofculture may become less.
So, to some extent, all the ageyou know, elderies in different
(38:16):
cultures may become moresimilar.
But that's just my speculation,something somebody need to
investigate.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Yeah, I love that analogy.
That is really helpful.
So much to gain from this.
Just appreciate your time somuch.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
Thank you, this was really exciting oh.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
I'm so happy to hear that.
I hear that, yeah, like I said,it's been a meaningful meeting
and I'm excited to share this.
Oh, thank you.
I think I have my mostdifficult question coming up for
you.
You know, you studied and livedthis for probably decades.
What are some key takeawaysthat you would, our listeners,
(38:58):
take away from your work and ourconversation today?
Speaker 1 (39:04):
It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
You've said a lot.
I don't know if there's anopen-ended opportunity, if you
had other ways to share.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Yeah, key takeaway is something like this.
We often constructualizedculture has something like
clothes, or some wear sportsshirts.
You know, in some culture youhave to wear sports shirts, some
(39:34):
other cultures you have to wearsomething else.
So you know, once you strip theperson and make him naked,
everybody is the same.
So that's one view of cultureand human mind.
Now, another very different viewis that you know you are person
(39:56):
, maybe shaped by culture.
So, for example, you know, ifyou use chopstick, your
perception, your motorcoordination change very
systematically.
Now, if that's merely chopstick, as opposed to knives and the
forks, it's not a big deal.
(40:18):
However, culture is here toorganize your life and almost
your biology, and your mind ismeant to utilize those cultural
resources to learn good life andsurvive.
So your mind maybe transformedin something different way how
(40:44):
you think about things, how youfeel about things and how you,
what you try to do and how youwant to do it.
All this may undergo somesystematic transformation, which
amounts to saying that culturebecome part of you.
So I think that's the biggesttakeaway.
(41:05):
And now, one implication ofthis is that this process of
psychological transformation byculture may have significant
impact on the aging process.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Really great.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Really great.
Okay, really thoughtful, reallythoughtful.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Yeah, thanks so much.
I have one last question foryou.
Yes, For those of you for thoseof you listeners, and for me
for the readings or warresources what would you
recommend?
What would you?
Speaker 2 (41:37):
recommend Websites books.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Yeah, yeah, that's a great question.
I would say a few now.
Book, I want to write one and Iwant to recommend it.
I don't have, do you?
If you go, if you go to mywebsite, there's a general
(42:00):
description of this field calledcultural psychology, and I try
to describe exactly what thefield tried to accomplish.
Probably that's a good way tostart learning a bit about this
field.
And now, if you are interestedin cultural differences in aging
(42:27):
, this American psychologyspeaks maybe good, you know a
little bit, you know academic,but hopefully that's not too
difficult to read.
So that may be a goodintroduction.
And also I want to emphasizethat East and West is only one
(42:51):
segment of massive culturalvariations that you can find on
the globe.
So just I'm saying, okay,westerners are like this and
Asians are like this.
That doesn't mean that, youknow, nobody else is relevant,
that's right.
Very contrary, you know we arecovering only tiny segment of
(43:14):
the people on the globe.
So actually, my current agenda,or more project right now, which
we are doing with theenthusiasm, is to go beyond East
and the West and very, verylittle research exists,
(43:40):
especially in connection toaging.
So I have very little to talkabout this in the context of
aging research, but nonetheless,it's very important to explain
the school and to realize thatsurely West is only part of the
story and East Asia can be addedto enrich the story, but still
(44:01):
in combination.
This story of East and the Westis limited, severely limited,
and that need to be expanded.
If people are interested inthis effort of expanding the
field, we have another Americanpsychologist piece published
last year entitled Varieties ofInterdependence.
(44:27):
So again, that's a scary paper,but that's a review paper.
I try to write, we try to writein a way that is highly
accessible to a general,intelligent audience.
So that's American Psychologist2022.
(44:48):
First off, that is me, so I'msure people can find it easily.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
Yeah, I will definitely put those links in
the description of this episode,so this episode can find those,
and I want to echo what yousaid, that you said that he is
very acrobatic and professional,but also accessible, and I
really, really appreciate that.
Thank you, well, this has beenwonderful.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
And I appreciate your time Just tremendously.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
Thank you very much, Kyle.
It was such a pleasure to havethis conversation with you
Wonderful.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
Thank you again, thank you.
I'll stop here.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
Okay.
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