October 28, 2025 • 39 mins
Discover the untold story of Napoleon Bonaparte’s parents — Carlo Buonaparte and Letizia Ramolino — and how their influence shaped the future Emperor of France. 🏛️
Special guest John Kuehn joins the show to help us dive into the lives of this Corsican couple:
Carlo Buonaparte, a lawyer and political opportunist, who navigated the turbulent politics of 18th-century Corsica.
Letizia Ramolino, Napoleon’s strong-willed mother, known for her resilience and discipline, who raised one of history’s most iconic military leaders.
From their noble Corsican roots to their roles during the French Revolution and Napoleonic Empire, learn how their ambitions, struggles, and values molded young Napoleon’s character, drive, and identity.
💡 Perfect for fans of history, Napoleonics, and those curious about the family behind the legend.
X/Twitter: @jkuehn50, @andnapoleon
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back to Generals and Napoleon.
We have an esteemed guest back on the line, the great author
John Kuhn, joining us on SCAN. How are you, John?
Doing great. Thanks, John.
Yeah, yeah. John and I are actually going to
talk about an interesting subject that I've been wanting
to get to for months. We're going to talk about Carlo
and Letizia Bonaparte. Those are Napoleon's parents,
(00:21):
and I really want to get deep down into that.
John, do you have any disclaimers I have to read
before we get into it? So, so these are my opinions as
a result of, you know, my work. They're not the opinions of the
US Army, the US Navy or the Department of Defense.
OK, so with that said, John is actually working on a book that
he actually has completed. It's called The Bonaparte of
(00:42):
Corsicana, really relates to what we're talking about today.
John, could you give my audienceA brief overview of what that is
and any publishers that may be looking to publish?
Yeah, the name of it is the Bonaparte's of Corsica, and I've
completed book 1, so it's meant to be a series and it's called
Carlo. So it's all about Carlo
Bonaparte when he was young. And actually the book book ends
(01:06):
with the birth of two people, Napoleon and Wellington.
Yeah, that is 1769, so that's a good time.
Book ends in 1769. Yeah, OK.
Well. Any would be publishers that are
looking for a great book, I recommend you get in touch with
John Kuhn. OK, so my first kind of bullet
point of what I want to talk to you about is they say most
(01:27):
people are products of their early childhood experience.
And looking at both personalities that are Carlo and
Letizia, it seems Napoleon was amix of both.
He had the big dreams of Carlo and the practical get it done,
stick to itiveness of Letizia. Does that sound accurate to you?
Yeah, it does. I'd say the big dreams of Carlo
(01:49):
really come in the DNA package that he gets from his dad, not
so much from sort of Carlo's Carlo's impact on him when he
gets shipped off and and he really never sees his father
again. So, so, so he's, you know, he
hasn't even really gone into teenage rebellion against his
father when he, when they ship him off to Brienne.
So, so the mother, on the other hand, I think is huge.
(02:15):
I think Letizia's impact on him is huge.
He, so Napoli's got this idealized view of his father.
You know, he's a freedom fighterand everything, but he's also,
he also, you know, has these, these ideas that that the
Bonaparte family is going to be a big deal in Corsica.
And we'll talk about that because, because, because Carlo
was on a fast track to be a big deal in Corsica until events
(02:37):
overtook him. But Letizia is fascinating.
I mean, you know, you mentioned it later.
I mean, she has a zillion kids and, you know, and eight of
them, you know, turn into adults.
So they're quite a brood. I mean, I'm surprised somebody
hasn't done more on on the Bonaparte as a clan because
they, I think they've got everything on the Corleones and
(02:57):
then some. And she is an amazing woman.
Biographers look at this, you know, did so and so get mostly
the dad, mostly the mom. Is he a mix of the two, right?
And Ron Cherno, in his biographyof Alexander Hamilton, said it's
clearly the mother where he getshis intelligence and his
(03:18):
brilliance. And I think if we're going to
give one of the two parents mostof it, we're going to give it to
Letizia. We're going to give Letizia 60
to 70% of Napoleons character comes from this slip of a girl
who's got a will of iron. Right.
And I totally agree with that, but I also don't want to
minimize the impact on his upbringing on the tough
(03:39):
mountainous train of Corsica andhis siblings, who also had mixes
of their parents. And I would say Lucy and Pauline
and Jerome were the dreamers, while Caroline, Louie and Eliza
and Joseph were the the doers. Your thoughts on the siblings
and how they affected Napoleon'searly years?
Well, the one who has the most effect on him is is Joseph.
(04:00):
So Joseph is his older brother and the and the relationship
between Joseph and Napoleon, right until Napoleon comes into
prominence, which really doesn'toccur until after the whiff of
grave shot. Joseph is a huge influence on
his life. So.
So I agree. You know, Joseph is a doer.
Although there's a little dreaminess to Joseph.
(04:20):
There's a lazy side to Joseph. Yeah, there's the same is true
of Elisa. Elisa, who's his sister is quite
a strong independent kind of a personality, you know, And of
course Lewis and Carolyn are too, you know, so these are the
very, you know, practical minded.
I would say Lucian is an interesting combination of both
dreamer and practical, but he's so independent.
(04:42):
I mean, Lucian is that guy who, you know, I mean, I'm still
amazed Lucian, when he comes to America, he just doesn't become
president, you know, because because he's, he's so much of,
of what we would think of as sort of the American approach to
democracy and republicanism. But he's independent.
He forges his own path. Pauline and Jerome, they're just
spoiled brats. Let's just face it and, and
(05:05):
maybe we'll talk about, there's one person that's not on your
list and that's Luciano since the Carlo's uncle, who has a
huge impact on Carlo, but he also has a big impact on
Napoleon. And so Luciano is a huge impact
too. We we kind of forget about him
in many ways after after Carlo dies.
(05:27):
Luciano Arch Arch Archdeacon of Corsica is is a huge impact and
we we always forget about him. There's some other impacts too
we're going to talk about but but I'd throw him on there.
But as far as stiblings go, yeah, I think your take is
pretty correct. OK, well let's discuss the
parents. Carla Bonaparte was born in
March 1746. Much has been made of Napoleon's
(05:50):
quote minor aristocracy and quote upbringing.
What was Carlos family and upbringing like?
So the Bonaparts of Corsica and I'm going to show a book here,
Steve England, Napoleon of political life.
He really goes into the Bonaparts of of a Jacio.
They are an established major family in that part of Corsica.
(06:15):
In fact, they're one of the major families of Corsica.
There are these clans, there's the Paoli's, there's the
Salacetti's, there's the Bonaparte's, there's the
Butafucos. And so they are an established
clan. We'll get into why that is here
in a second, but his upbringing is already, before they become
French, minor aristocracy. They are already considered
(06:37):
minor aristocracy by the standards of Corsica.
Yeah, and I think though, some people get confused like they
weren't rich. I mean, they had a nice house,
but I wouldn't call the Bonaparte's rich growing up.
So compared to most Corsicans, they're rich.
OK, are they among the wealthiest of the Corsicans?
No, but they are definitely in the top 10% because they're a
(07:01):
family of lawyers. They come from money.
They have a way to generate money, but they also have land
and the family is an extended family.
So the extended family has money.
Luciano, who is Carlo's father'sbrother, has money.
He's a churchman, he's got money.
So there is there is money therethat doesn't come directly from
(07:25):
Carlo or Carlo's father, who is also a lawyer.
But essentially, the Bonaparte'sare lawyers, and they live in a
Jack CEO. So Carlo initially follow
follows his father's footsteps and studies to be a lawyer.
But what is going on in Corsica politically at this time?
Because I know the island had long been a possession of Genoa.
Yeah, so. This is a period of, for the
(07:47):
Corsicans of benign neglect. Yes, they're, they become a
Genoese possession, but the Genoese never really implement
ironclad control over Corsica. All they wanted was the ports,
particularly the ones in the North, Bastia and Calvi.
So, but they don't, they're not interested in the interior.
(08:08):
And so they have this very relaxed rule of Corsica where
there's only a couple major towns where they keep garrisons.
So the Seven Years War is the tipping point.
When the Seven Years War occurs,most part of the settlement at
the Treaty of Paris is to give Genoa a sort of a compensation
to the French. You know, France loses the Seven
(08:31):
Years War, but she gets Corsica as sort of a SOP for the other
things that she's lost, particularly the New World.
Her, her empire in North Americais lost, but she gets this
possession in the Mediterranean.And so so Genoa basically goes,
yeah, we don't really control the place anyway yet.
So you can have it fine. Louis the 15th and duck to
(08:54):
Chosul, it's yours. Good luck bringing it under
control. And so that's what's going on at
the time that Carlo is a young man and he's studying in Italy
to be a lawyer. We think he's going to school at
the university in Pisa. Yeah, but he gets called back to
Corsica because of this impending crisis, with the
(09:15):
French asserting control over Corsica.
OK, let's discuss Napoleon's mother now.
Maria Letizia Bonaparte was bornin August 1750.
She's the daughter of an army officer, and her family was
recognized as part of the Italian nobility.
What was her early life like? So, so her early life is just
(09:35):
like Napoleon's. I mean, she's a child for this
period that we're talking about.Her family are the Ramolinos.
And this is where we can talk about all these families.
The one of the reasons the Bonaparte's and the Ramolinos,
the Botafucos, all of them are important is they all come to
Corsica in the 17th, in the 18thcentury.
(09:57):
And all of them are sort of these Italian mercenaries, Swiss
mercenaries who set up residencein Corsica.
And they basically become the leadership of Corsica.
So they're all from the Italian nobility, but they initially
weren't, They were mercenaries. And they're basically kind of
given a place to go and reward for their services.
So the Ramolinos come from mercenaries and the Bonaparte
(10:19):
come from Tuscan, Tuscan mercenaries, but actually they
were from further north in Italy, Lombardi.
And then they move South. So she's the daughter of the
Ramolino. Ramolino dies and leaves her
mother Minama widowed. Minama is still very young and
beautiful herself. I mean, you know, she's very
young when she gives birth to Letizia, who's her, who's her
(10:40):
oldest daughter. And so so she remarries and she
remarries the Swiss mercenary, aguy named Joseph Fesch, who will
have a son with Minama, who willbe Leticia's stepbrother, Joseph
Fesch, who will later become importantly, Cardinal Fesch.
So that's her background. But she's very young, very
Catholic, going to a Catholic school, being being essentially
(11:01):
educated by nuns. But she's very, very
intelligent. She's literate.
So both, both of these families come from the class that is
literate. And that's how you know, they're
important. They, they're literate.
OK, Now they're literate in Italian, Latin and maybe French.
The 1st 2 languages of Corsica are really Italian and Latin.
(11:23):
All right, So it depends on whether you're in the church or
not, whether you know Latin, butso so she's and she's very
young. She's 14 years old and you're
going to get. Into that, Yeah.
In June 1764, there is a marriage between 14 year old
Letizia, an 18 year old Carlo. How would you describe their
marriage? Was it a happy one?
Because it sounds arranged, sorta.
(11:43):
I don't know if they. Actually, it's absolutely an
arranged marriage. By this point.
The payer familias of the Bonaparte family is no longer
Carlo's father, who's died rightof stomach cancer.
All right. But it's it's Luciano, his
brother. Luciano says, all right, you
know, he tells Carlo's mother Sevaria, you need to get
(12:07):
married. You need to come back from Pisa
and take control of the family because things are going to
change and we need you back here.
We need all the talent we can get.
So they set up this marriage with the Ramolino clan.
So Carlo fellow and and Letizia are promised to each other
without ever seeing each other sort of standard procedure here.
And and he doesn't want to get married.
(12:28):
He's having, you know, a good old time in a college town being
a college Playboy. And so he he he's so upset about
the marriage, he refuses to get married in the church.
So, so they're married in a civil marriage, right?
Because Corsica is self ruled bythe Paoli's and so they're
(12:48):
getting a civil marriage. Very a few nations in Europe do
this. I mean, you know, of course,
it's almost like the United States.
It's this oddball Republic that the Genoese are glad to exist.
So. But Carlo expresses his distaste
for the marriage by saying I refuse to get married in the
church. I'm a man of the Enlightenment.
I'm a man of reason. I don't believe in religious
(13:09):
nonsense. And if you're going to make me
get married. So they get a civil marriage.
And Letizia is horrified. She's a good little Catholic
girl. I mean, she's 14 years old, for
God's sake. I mean, you can't make this
stuff, so it's not a happy marriage.
But they do get pregnant right away.
And Carlo goes on to become Paoli's secretary.
(13:30):
Yeah. And I want to get into that
there's a couple things to this question.
The couple go on to have 13 children of whom mate survived.
Napoleon is a second born child as you mentioned after Joseph
and around the time of Joseph's birth.
Genoa formally seeds course go to France.
The freedom fighter Pasqual Paoli leads an armed resistance
against the French, and Paolo serves as secretary to Paoli.
(13:53):
This is an important position, correct?
So I remember Alexander Hamiltonis a secretary to George
Washington. It's not like how we think of
secretaries now. Yeah, the analogy is extremely
well made. So, so Paola.
So they're married. Leticia gets pregnant.
Paoli sends Carlo off back to Italy where he has an affair and
(14:18):
wastes money. But his whole idea is to get
loans for Corsica from the Florentine bankers, which he
does. He does.
He does that correctly, but he has an affair, very public 1 it
gets back and then on top of it,Leticia has a miscarriage.
So her first pregnancy is a miscarriage.
And Carla comes back and he everybody sort of says, you
(14:39):
know, you're a you're an idiot. But they give him a second
chance and he gets Letizia pregnant and and now she does
have a baby, but it's right in the middle of this war for
independence. And he gives a famous speech in
Corte. Some people say the speech was
really given by Paoli. But when you read the speech,
it's this rousing, you know, call to liberty and defend the
(15:02):
freedom, of course, like againstthe French invaders.
So, so he's one of Paoli's righthand men in the revolution, in
the war of independence that takes place against the French.
You know, it goes poorly. But initially it doesn't.
Initially the French have some setbacks and they have to send
down, they have to send down thefirst string.
(15:23):
Initially they send down the second string with the what they
call the Corsican Legion. Carlo becomes a soldier, a
captain in one of and Paoli's army, and is with Paoli at the
Battle of Novoponta. Yeah, and I know Paoli's one of
Napoleon's biggest, I guess, role models, but we'll we'll
come back to that. Paoli and his supporters are
(15:47):
eventually defeated by the French, and Carlo decides to
ingratiate himself with the French conquerors of Corsica.
How does he do that? OK, so you know, there's a
couple things going on here. So the, the war goes poorly.
They, they send a, a, a French, a new French general down a guy
named the Marquis de Voe. He's got orders from the Doctor
(16:10):
Schwa Seoul to kind of to, to, to make Corsica come to heel.
He sends this guy the Comptomar Boeuf down as his political
adviser. So after this big defeat outside
Corte at the battle of of Newbridge or Ponte Novo,
everybody heads to the hills. Salacetti's flea and Carlo flees
(16:31):
back to to Ajaxio. And he's hiding in the hills of
Ajaxio with his young son, his teenage wife, who's pregnant
with another baby. Who is you know who right,
Napoleon, right. And Marbuf offers the the noble,
the franchise of French nobilityto all of all of the people.
(16:54):
So Luciano, Napoleon's uncle, says, hey, you really need to
accept the franchise. And so so Carlo comes out of the
hills, meets with Marbouf, and he accepts the franchise.
So it's it's not that he's ingratiating himself.
He's only doing what's practical.
And so this is the practical side of the Bonaparte.
Well, that's sort of coming through.
That's what I think would happeneither.
Latizi had to talk with him and said.
Look, we're not running around the hills anymore.
(17:16):
I'm pregnant. You need to get in good with
these new French conquerors and and maybe get into the
aristocracy there and our lives will be more settled.
Yeah, so just about every familyin Corsica accepts the amnesty,
and as a reward, Marbuf gives them all titles of nobility.
(17:36):
Now the first clan gets the biggest title of nobility.
That'll be the Buddhafookos. They basically become barons.
But but Carlo comes in and he's made a Chevalier, a minor
nobility. I think Fesh is also awarded A
Chevalier. So the Ramolino's also come into
the clan. Luciano, because he's a
(17:57):
churchman, gets to retain his rights and responsibilities in
the church. Except now you know he's working
for the French branch of the Catholic Church, not the
Corsican branch. Right, like in April 1770, the
French create the Corsican orderof nobility and Carlo is
included. And although Carlo has many
titles, he isn't satisfied and embarks on what I would call get
(18:19):
rich quick schemes. How do these turn out?
Because I know he's also gambling a great deal at this
time. After one trip to Paris, Carlo
noted quote. In Paris I received 4000 francs
from the king and a fee of 1000 crowns to the government, but I
came back without a penny. End Quote.
Yeah, unfortunately for Carlo, he's probably a pretty good
lawyer, or at least a good enough lawyer.
(18:41):
He, he does get an income, he's granted A bequest, the 4000
francs from the, from the king, you know, but the biggest
advantage of being a noble is that his children qualify for
all of the benefits that come with being part of the French
nobility. Now they're minor nobility, so
there's only kind of two places they can go.
(19:01):
They can go into the army or they can go into the church.
And but that means free education, which is absolutely
huge. And the first one to benefit
from this of Carlos children will be Joseph.
You know, he'll get to go and study at Oxfam province.
He goes to Oxfam Province and studies there initially in the
(19:23):
church, and then he'll switch tobeing a lawyer, decides the
church isn't for him. So, so he, they, they get this.
But yeah, Carlo is a spendthrift.
He doesn't know to handle money.Now, Carlo isn't the only source
of income. All right, Remember, she's got
an income. The Rambolinos have an income.
Luciano has an income. But yeah, Carlo is not very good
with money, and he kind of spends it as quickly as he gets
(19:47):
it. And he's that guy who just can't
seem to to hang on to a dollar bill, or a franc in this case.
Well, Carlo's able to get his two oldest boys, as we
mentioned, in the state-run schools on paid scholarships.
And I think at the age of 9, Napoleon has dropped off at
military school in France by hisfather.
I mean, this must have been really hard for a young
Napoleon, very Spartan accommodations, not knowing
(20:09):
anyone, not being able to speak French fluently.
But at the same time. I'm often amazed that a dad and
course code decided to take his nine year old to a military
college would affect the whole world.
It's such a butterfly effect decision that seems minor at the
time, but I mean it turned into an emperor.
It it's almost over determined. The historians have different
(20:31):
words they use and one of them is over determined.
The first son goes into the church, you know, or inherits,
you know, everything and and Joseph decides he wants to be
the painter familia. So he drops out of the church
and and and goes to become a lawyer to basically follow his
father's footsteps. And the second son goes into the
army. The same thing happens to
(20:51):
Wellington. You know, Wellington is born the
same year and he's not going to be the guy to become Ford
Mornington. He's going to he's going to be
the guy that goes into the army,right.
And he's dropped off too, you know, at a public school, just
like Klausowitz is dropped off at the regiment, you know, when
he's 11. So, you know, all of these
famous men that we're talking about this period, John, they
(21:14):
all have the same pattern. They're all dropped off at a
private school somewhere, usually a military school.
And so Napoleon is just this Italian misfit who gets dropped
off. I mean, he's an adolescent.
So he's he's he's got his hormones kicking in.
He doesn't know the French language.
He's got this idealized vision of Paoli as the father of his
(21:34):
country. And so, you know, even though
his father has abandoned the Paolis, you know, dream of an
independent Corsican Republic, Napoleon never lets go of that
dream. And then he gets dropped off
with a bunch of Snooty strangersat Brienne in the far north.
I mean, he's coming from the land of warmth and in Italy, and
now he's going to this cold, inhospitable northern wasteland
(22:00):
as far as he's concerned. So he's a real odd, he's a real
duck out of water up there in Brienne.
But this will sort of lead to everything that happens.
I would say it shapes his character a little bit though,
that he had to survive in that steer environment.
No. And so he becomes very, very
self reliant. And this is Letizia, right?
So Letizia, the same way she's abandoned by her husband, she's
(22:24):
pregnant, you know, her husband's off in Corte, she's in
a Jack CEO And so she's very self reliant.
And so Napoleon kind of follows in her mold of being very self
reliant. And he's he's insular, he's
introvert. He's an extreme introvert.
There's a Billy Joel song. I wrote this down when I was
looking at your question. It's called the Angry young man,
and that's Napoleon. He's the angry young man.
(22:46):
You know, he's passionate, he's introverted, but he's boring as
hell, right? You know, at least around women
he is. And so that's Napoleon.
He's this introverted, intense, you know, guy, you know, that
people, you know, like, you know, they don't want to be
around him. Anyway, we go back to Carlo.
Well, in 1782 Carlo grows weakerand suffer suffers constantly
(23:08):
pain. He seeks medical attention for
years but dies in February 1785.It is believed to be stomach
cancer, the same disease that also kills Napoleon and Caroline
later on. How are the finances of the
family when he does? OK, let a word on the cancer.
It's congenital and it's a, it'swhat we call a gastric sarcoma.
(23:31):
And I'm a big believer that for the Bonaparte, this is something
that occurs to them in a relatively young age.
They'll get this, this, this type of sarcoma.
There's two type of stomach sarcomas.
There's one that you can get when you're old, and then
there's one that you can get when you're young.
If you get the young one, the only solution is surgery.
(23:52):
Well, the medical science hasn'treached a point where you can go
in and cut one of these things out of a stomach.
The surgery will probably kill you.
Now you might go, why would you know so much about gastric
sarcoma? My own son had it.
He developed it in his early 30sand he had to have surgery to
get it removed. So I always tell my son, I said
you had the same thing that killed Napoleon, but you
(24:14):
survived it, so look what you'regoing to be able to do, right?
So, so let's go back to the question, you know, so the
finances. I was thinking about the
question, you know, how desperate it is when Carlo dies,
you know, but it's not that desperate.
You know, he's got two people that could be sucking the money
down who are on the benefices ofthe French state, Joseph in Oxen
(24:36):
Provence and Napoleon and Brienne.
And then later Napoleon goes to the artillery school and then he
goes to the Nicole military so you don't have to pay for them.
And now who inherits the families finances?
Well, good old self reliant, frugal letizia.
And she's not all by herself. She's not a widow with no means.
(24:56):
She's got the Ramolinos who can still support her because she's
a Ramolino, right? So she's friends with the
fascist and Luciano. Luciano has money.
And so, yeah, she's got all these kids.
Bonaparte leaves her with seven more children.
So, yeah, she's got this brood of kids that she's got to worry
(25:16):
about. And what's the biggest reason
that the Bonaparte's are having money problems, Carlo?
Carlo, well, he's. Dead.
So the guy who's the biggest problem for the Bonaparte
finances is gone. So, you know, part of what I'm
going to try to get across to your listeners here is, yeah,
the financial circumstances are tight, bordering on desperate
(25:38):
because of all these young children.
However, she's got a pretty goodsafety net there in Corsica.
And it's only going to be when Joseph and and Napoleon come
back and, and try to sort of create this, this, this, this
league with Paoli and then have the break with Paoli and the
(26:00):
whole French Revolution and the British come come to Corsica
that things are really going to get tight.
So it's not until that happens that things get really tight
when the Bonaparte sort of have to flee Corsica for southern
France. Right.
And I think that's where Let's Easier learns her frugality is
during this time. Yeah, it's when she gets to
France and she really has to be tight fisted.
(26:22):
But now she's got two more benefactors and she lets them
know. She lets Giuseppe and Napoleon.
No, you 2 have got to provide the money for the family.
We don't have our family safety net in in a jaxio anymore to
help us. We're we're now we really are
totally on our own widths to make our money because we don't
(26:45):
have the family lands and we don't have the family house and
everything in a jaxio. Well, in 1786, Napoleon returns
home after eight years away. He's now serving as a Lieutenant
in the French artillery, so he has a little bit of money.
But things get worse. In 1793, Napoleon and his
brothers break relations from Paoli and Paoli's supporters,
(27:06):
ransack and burn the Bonaparte family home, and Napoleon and
his mother and the siblings get away with just the clothes on
their backs. Letizia, now destitute, arrives
in France and relies on soup kitchens and Napoleon's salary
to get by. I mean, this is probably the
lowest point for the whole family I would think.
Yeah, and this is the impact of the French Revolution.
OK, The the the whole idea of liberty, equality and and
(27:30):
fraternity, you know, it just doesn't work out.
All right. And and and Napoleon and his
brothers efforts to sort of leadthe charge for Corsican
independence. You know, runs the foul of Paoli
when Paoli kind of it makes common cause with the British,
who are the biggest enemies of the French Revolution.
(27:51):
And so now they're Republicans. They're not nobility.
They can't, you know, oh, we're nobility.
We, we deserve all of the largest of the state.
No, well, now it's the Republic and it's, you know, career of
talents, right. Well, the only careers going on
here are Napoleon's and Joseph's.
And so Napoleon and Joseph and and Leticia now have to come up
(28:13):
with the means. And so when they're living in
Marseille, this circumstances are very, very tight.
You know, they're, they're, theybecome all of a sudden at a
stroke, they become part of the lower middle class.
And when they're citizens and this idea that they deserve
anything because of their bloodline is complete nonsense.
And they become Jacobins. They go, Yep, we're Jacobins.
(28:34):
You know, the working man's, youknow, intelligentsia elite or
the Republican intelligentsia. And so who do they make common
cause with? Well, they make common cause
with the ropes, Piers, you know,and, and, and so Letizia sees
her sons become these radical Republicans.
And all of the children follow suit except the youngest, who
(28:55):
still, you know, you know, they're still in the nursery
being taken care of by Letizia. And they're faithful Nurse
Camilla. So she she flees there.
So, you know, so Letizia is like, hey, I need some money,
guys. You need some promotions, right?
And those of law practice isn't bringing in a lot of money.
And all of a sudden Napoleon becomes the man.
(29:16):
You gotta you gotta get promoted.
And so Napoleon goes, OK, I'll line up with the with the roast
beers if that's the way that I can get patronage so that I can
advance in the ranks. Well, it's interesting to me.
And the older ones knew how direit was.
Like Napoleon. Joseph.
Wasn't that frugal, Lucian? But the younger ones seem to be
the most spoiled, maybe just because they never experienced
(29:39):
that, that that hard time, like Jerome, Caroline, you know, to
Pauline, you know, they were more spoiled, the younger ones
than the older ones. Yeah, they are.
You know, in this period between1793 and 1795 is the period
where where Leticia is probably the most desperate in terms of
money, but she's confident that Napoleon and Joseph can deliver.
(30:03):
And of course, the one who's going to deliver is going to be
Napoleon, the one who's most like her, you know, did.
Hard worker. Yeah, she knows.
Yeah. Well, circumstances improve when
Napoleon becomes famous after the Victoria siege of Toulon and
suppressing the Paris revolt in 1795.
Napoleon gets promoted, has a more sizeable income to take
(30:24):
care of his family. However, a new problem arises in
the form of Josephine. Why did Letizia and the rest of
the family disapprove of Josephine?
Yeah, it's just like just when the family's got everything
together and Napoleon becomes a general as a reward, you know,
for his loyalty to the very corrupt government that also is
(30:47):
rapacious and rewards, you know,people who support it with lots
of money. S Napoleon hits the jackpot with
the whiff of grape shot. He falls in love with Bara's
mistress, which is intentional. Bara wants to get rid of his
mistress because she spends money like it's going out of
style so he fobs her off on Napoleon and that's why nobody
(31:09):
supports this marriage. Josephine is notorious in her
ability to spend money and create debt so that's why the
family doesn't approve. They want Napoleon to marry a a
more sensible girl like Letizia.Yeah, and and, you know, you
jump forward a few years when Napoleon wants his brothers and
sisters to marry nobility. But they make the very good
(31:30):
point. Like you didn't marry nobility.
You married some lady who's older than you who had two kids,
a divorcee. So I could see the friction
between the family. Like, well, you're you're
telling us one thing. But then you went and married
Josephine. Yeah, and that's kind of the
answer to your next question. Yeah, which is, you know, that's
why Letizia doesn't come to the coronation.
She detests Josephine. They almost get Josephine.
(31:51):
Anyway, Napoleon comes home and,and, and she's having an affair
with that Hippolyte guy and, andNapoleon is furious, you know,
and, and Eugen and Hortens have to beg Napoleon to forgive their
mother and Letizia and Joseph and the whole clan are like,
great, he's going to divorce her, right?
Because this is the Republic, you know, you can get rid of
(32:11):
her, right? And they come over to the house
and Napoleon's back in bed with Josephine and they're like rats,
right? You know, So they, they detest
Josephine. None of them like her, all
right? Not not A1, not a one of them
like Sir. It's fascinating, though, that
in the famous artwork by JacquesLouis David, you know, he paints
(32:33):
let's easy in there even though she wasn't there.
Yeah, and, and Napoleon knows that.
I mean, he could have given his mother a big grand title.
She didn't want one. She was just happy to be as you
say, you know who she was. Yeah, well, Napoleon still
granted her an annual statement of 500,000 francs.
And Madame Marie, as she's now known, famously saved the money
(32:55):
saying about the opulence that Napoleon and his siblings lived
in. You know, so long as it lasts,
why does she remain distant fromthe imperial court?
Is it Josephine? Is it she didn't want to be
around all that opulence? Why didn't she want to be around
all that? Well.
That's one of those questions that's hard to answer.
We can only speculate, right? And I think one, she didn't want
(33:16):
to be around Josephine. She didn't want to be around a
court dominated by Josephine. Now, Napoleon sisters will and
they'll fight with Josephine andtry to become the dominant
influence at French court. But, you know, as long as
Josephine around, she's kind of snapping the whip, you know, and
because she's the master of Paris Salon society.
(33:37):
But Leticia goes, you know, I'm not even going to try.
And so she goes back to her homeland, Italy, and and kind of
kind of maintains her distance. Yeah, well, in 1814 she
accompanies Napoleon to his exile and Elba, and she later
encourages him to return to France to reclaim his throne.
Do you think she was his biggestsupporter?
(33:59):
No, but I think she's kind of his second biggest supporter.
I I think Napoleon's biggest supporter is Maria Volanska, his
his Polish mistress when all thechips are down.
Napoleon's biggest supporters are Joseph and Maria.
Even though Joseph mishandles the ball in 1814 and again sort
of in 1815, he he still loves his brother and supports him.
(34:22):
Just Joseph has got to be one ofthe best older brothers of all
time. Although Lucian I think spoke
truth to Napoleon and he loved Napoleon too, but he wasn't
willing to compromise his values.
But Letizia does support him. She does see the mess that
France is in. She sees it as low hanging
fruit. She thinks, well, he's learned
his lesson. She just doesn't understand the
animosity the rest of Europe hastowards her genius, brilliant
(34:46):
son. You know, and, and and that they
just don't trust him. Well, it's interesting.
Like, you know, all children think they're special in their
mom's eyes. And, and in Napoleon's case, he
was. But then she had these other
seven siblings who she loved. But, you know, like, famously.
After Napoleon's downfall in 1815, Letizia retires to Rome
(35:06):
and she never speaks to CarolineBonaparte ever again for
betraying her brother Napoleon, right?
Oh, right, right. Yeah.
The Carolyn is the is the Fredo of the family.
She you know she's dead to Letizia after she does that.
Yeah, yeah, because her and Mura, you know, joined the
Allies and and the. Right.
And then Mura, you know, could never make up his mind
(35:27):
completely. And then he he switches sides
again. And, and that tragedy is just
incredible, right? So, yeah, Letizia retires to
Rome. She's protected by the Pope.
She had been very, she'd always been very kind and generous to
the Pope. And he remembered that.
And Pius, so Pius said, hey, Letizia is a good Catholic girl.
(35:48):
You know, one of the reasons theconcordant happens is Letizia's
influence on her son. And so she's under my protection
and she goes back to her homeland, Italy.
We, you know, we kind of keep remembering the Bonaparte's are
as much Italian as they are French and Napoleon sisters,
totally Italian. Elisa is Italian and that's
where her lands are and where she spends the bulk of her life
(36:10):
is in. So it's no accident that, you
know, that they all end up back either in Italy or in America.
It's it's fascinating what happens in the Bonaparte.
Well, Letizia dies in 1836 at the old age of 85.
The legacy of Letizia, Napoleon once said.
Quote. The future destiny of the child
is always the work of the mother.
(36:30):
End Quote. So I guess it's a two-part
question. What is Leticia's legacy and
Carlos legacy? So I'm going to use some
classical illusions here. Carlos is pretty easy.
You know, he's he's the father. You know, he's the man married
to the woman, right? So there there's all these great
leaders in history. We know about their mothers.
OK? We know about Caesar's mother.
(36:52):
She's dynamic. She's a pusher, a social
climber. We know about Churchill's
mother, Jenny, Jenny Randolph. She's a climber, she's a pusher.
We know about Cornelia, mother of the crack eye, She's a
pusher. We don't know about the father.
So Carlo's legacy is sort of hidden, you know, from history.
It's there. There should be more there, but
(37:14):
but again, you know, the Carlo'sbiggest legacy to the Bonaparte
says he marries well, well and and and give.
Him Credit for dropping Napoleonoff at Brianna, Yeah.
The decision to take advantage of, of what the French court and
the French king are offering. When you think about the
generosity of Louis the 15th andthe Doctor Schwa Sul and Marbouf
(37:35):
towards the Corsicans, you have to go.
You know, the French behaved well in that circumstance.
They could have been much, much worse than they were.
But Letizia's legacy is she's the mother of the crack eye, you
know, But it's the crack eye on steroids, you know.
And I mean, all of Napoleon's, you know, brothers become kings,
all right? And Letizia's a mother of kings
(37:57):
and an emperor. So, you know, when we think
about her legacy, her legacy is absolutely this family who will
continue to dominate Europe longafter Napoleon's dead with,
with, with her grandnephew, Louis Louis Napoleon, Napoleon
the 3rd, and even in in the United States with the Secretary
(38:18):
of the Navy, Charles Bonaparte. So I mean, she's got an
incredible legacy. Give her full credit, though,
she didn't let the opulence and the money go to her head like
some part of her her children. She kind of stayed, you know,
austere and and and and frugal throughout.
Yeah, and her, she's one of these people.
She's constrained by the mores of society on what she can do,
(38:39):
how much power she could wield. Certainly Carolyn didn't want to
be constrained by those mores. Pauline just wanted to be a
pretty face on the arm of a handsome man.
But. But not Carolyn.
And but Letizia shows you what could be accomplished back then
by a woman who had a good head on her shoulders and a will of
iron. And you know, we talked about
(39:00):
the Iron Marshall Davu. Leticia is the Iron Mother.
That's a good ending right there.
I love that. Well, thank you for that, John.
Once again, John has a really interesting book called The
Bonaparts of Corsica that hopefully is coming out soon one
day. If somebody wants to share it,
then you know, I'm willing to share it.
You know, I shared it with a couple people already, my
brother. You know, I like the Bonaparts.
(39:22):
I've been sharing my stuff with my family but.
Yeah, you can also find John on Twitter.
What's the tag again? It's J Kuhn, 50 at JQ and 50.
I'm also in Blue Sky at JQ and 50, so you can find me at either
Blue Sky or Twitter. OK.
Yeah. So please give John a follow
there. And yeah, as always, we thank
you for coming on. Thanks, John.
(39:42):
Great, John. Thanks for having me on.
Welcome back to Generals and Napoleon.
We have an esteemed guest back on the line, the great author
John Kuhn, joining us on SCAN. How are you, John?
Doing great. Thanks, John.
Yeah, yeah. John and I are actually going to
talk about an interesting subject that I've been wanting
to get to for months. We're going to talk about Carlo
and Letizia Bonaparte. Those are Napoleon's parents,
(00:21):
and I really want to get deep down into that.
John, do you have any disclaimers I have to read
before we get into it? So, so these are my opinions as
a result of, you know, my work. They're not the opinions of the
US Army, the US Navy or the Department of Defense.
OK, so with that said, John is actually working on a book that
he actually has completed. It's called The Bonaparte of
(00:42):
Corsicana, really relates to what we're talking about today.
John, could you give my audienceA brief overview of what that is
and any publishers that may be looking to publish?
Yeah, the name of it is the Bonaparte's of Corsica, and I've
completed book 1, so it's meant to be a series and it's called
Carlo. So it's all about Carlo
Bonaparte when he was young. And actually the book book ends
(01:06):
with the birth of two people, Napoleon and Wellington.
Yeah, that is 1769, so that's a good time.
Book ends in 1769. Yeah, OK.
Well. Any would be publishers that are
looking for a great book, I recommend you get in touch with
John Kuhn. OK, so my first kind of bullet
point of what I want to talk to you about is they say most
(01:27):
people are products of their early childhood experience.
And looking at both personalities that are Carlo and
Letizia, it seems Napoleon was amix of both.
He had the big dreams of Carlo and the practical get it done,
stick to itiveness of Letizia. Does that sound accurate to you?
Yeah, it does. I'd say the big dreams of Carlo
(01:49):
really come in the DNA package that he gets from his dad, not
so much from sort of Carlo's Carlo's impact on him when he
gets shipped off and and he really never sees his father
again. So, so, so he's, you know, he
hasn't even really gone into teenage rebellion against his
father when he, when they ship him off to Brienne.
So, so the mother, on the other hand, I think is huge.
(02:15):
I think Letizia's impact on him is huge.
He, so Napoli's got this idealized view of his father.
You know, he's a freedom fighterand everything, but he's also,
he also, you know, has these, these ideas that that the
Bonaparte family is going to be a big deal in Corsica.
And we'll talk about that because, because, because Carlo
was on a fast track to be a big deal in Corsica until events
(02:37):
overtook him. But Letizia is fascinating.
I mean, you know, you mentioned it later.
I mean, she has a zillion kids and, you know, and eight of
them, you know, turn into adults.
So they're quite a brood. I mean, I'm surprised somebody
hasn't done more on on the Bonaparte as a clan because
they, I think they've got everything on the Corleones and
(02:57):
then some. And she is an amazing woman.
Biographers look at this, you know, did so and so get mostly
the dad, mostly the mom. Is he a mix of the two, right?
And Ron Cherno, in his biographyof Alexander Hamilton, said it's
clearly the mother where he getshis intelligence and his
(03:18):
brilliance. And I think if we're going to
give one of the two parents mostof it, we're going to give it to
Letizia. We're going to give Letizia 60
to 70% of Napoleons character comes from this slip of a girl
who's got a will of iron. Right.
And I totally agree with that, but I also don't want to
minimize the impact on his upbringing on the tough
(03:39):
mountainous train of Corsica andhis siblings, who also had mixes
of their parents. And I would say Lucy and Pauline
and Jerome were the dreamers, while Caroline, Louie and Eliza
and Joseph were the the doers. Your thoughts on the siblings
and how they affected Napoleon'searly years?
Well, the one who has the most effect on him is is Joseph.
(04:00):
So Joseph is his older brother and the and the relationship
between Joseph and Napoleon, right until Napoleon comes into
prominence, which really doesn'toccur until after the whiff of
grave shot. Joseph is a huge influence on
his life. So.
So I agree. You know, Joseph is a doer.
Although there's a little dreaminess to Joseph.
(04:20):
There's a lazy side to Joseph. Yeah, there's the same is true
of Elisa. Elisa, who's his sister is quite
a strong independent kind of a personality, you know, And of
course Lewis and Carolyn are too, you know, so these are the
very, you know, practical minded.
I would say Lucian is an interesting combination of both
dreamer and practical, but he's so independent.
(04:42):
I mean, Lucian is that guy who, you know, I mean, I'm still
amazed Lucian, when he comes to America, he just doesn't become
president, you know, because because he's, he's so much of,
of what we would think of as sort of the American approach to
democracy and republicanism. But he's independent.
He forges his own path. Pauline and Jerome, they're just
spoiled brats. Let's just face it and, and
(05:05):
maybe we'll talk about, there's one person that's not on your
list and that's Luciano since the Carlo's uncle, who has a
huge impact on Carlo, but he also has a big impact on
Napoleon. And so Luciano is a huge impact
too. We we kind of forget about him
in many ways after after Carlo dies.
(05:27):
Luciano Arch Arch Archdeacon of Corsica is is a huge impact and
we we always forget about him. There's some other impacts too
we're going to talk about but but I'd throw him on there.
But as far as stiblings go, yeah, I think your take is
pretty correct. OK, well let's discuss the
parents. Carla Bonaparte was born in
March 1746. Much has been made of Napoleon's
(05:50):
quote minor aristocracy and quote upbringing.
What was Carlos family and upbringing like?
So the Bonaparts of Corsica and I'm going to show a book here,
Steve England, Napoleon of political life.
He really goes into the Bonaparts of of a Jacio.
They are an established major family in that part of Corsica.
(06:15):
In fact, they're one of the major families of Corsica.
There are these clans, there's the Paoli's, there's the
Salacetti's, there's the Bonaparte's, there's the
Butafucos. And so they are an established
clan. We'll get into why that is here
in a second, but his upbringing is already, before they become
French, minor aristocracy. They are already considered
(06:37):
minor aristocracy by the standards of Corsica.
Yeah, and I think though, some people get confused like they
weren't rich. I mean, they had a nice house,
but I wouldn't call the Bonaparte's rich growing up.
So compared to most Corsicans, they're rich.
OK, are they among the wealthiest of the Corsicans?
No, but they are definitely in the top 10% because they're a
(07:01):
family of lawyers. They come from money.
They have a way to generate money, but they also have land
and the family is an extended family.
So the extended family has money.
Luciano, who is Carlo's father'sbrother, has money.
He's a churchman, he's got money.
So there is there is money therethat doesn't come directly from
(07:25):
Carlo or Carlo's father, who is also a lawyer.
But essentially, the Bonaparte'sare lawyers, and they live in a
Jack CEO. So Carlo initially follow
follows his father's footsteps and studies to be a lawyer.
But what is going on in Corsica politically at this time?
Because I know the island had long been a possession of Genoa.
Yeah, so. This is a period of, for the
(07:47):
Corsicans of benign neglect. Yes, they're, they become a
Genoese possession, but the Genoese never really implement
ironclad control over Corsica. All they wanted was the ports,
particularly the ones in the North, Bastia and Calvi.
So, but they don't, they're not interested in the interior.
(08:08):
And so they have this very relaxed rule of Corsica where
there's only a couple major towns where they keep garrisons.
So the Seven Years War is the tipping point.
When the Seven Years War occurs,most part of the settlement at
the Treaty of Paris is to give Genoa a sort of a compensation
to the French. You know, France loses the Seven
(08:31):
Years War, but she gets Corsica as sort of a SOP for the other
things that she's lost, particularly the New World.
Her, her empire in North Americais lost, but she gets this
possession in the Mediterranean.And so so Genoa basically goes,
yeah, we don't really control the place anyway yet.
So you can have it fine. Louis the 15th and duck to
(08:54):
Chosul, it's yours. Good luck bringing it under
control. And so that's what's going on at
the time that Carlo is a young man and he's studying in Italy
to be a lawyer. We think he's going to school at
the university in Pisa. Yeah, but he gets called back to
Corsica because of this impending crisis, with the
(09:15):
French asserting control over Corsica.
OK, let's discuss Napoleon's mother now.
Maria Letizia Bonaparte was bornin August 1750.
She's the daughter of an army officer, and her family was
recognized as part of the Italian nobility.
What was her early life like? So, so her early life is just
(09:35):
like Napoleon's. I mean, she's a child for this
period that we're talking about.Her family are the Ramolinos.
And this is where we can talk about all these families.
The one of the reasons the Bonaparte's and the Ramolinos,
the Botafucos, all of them are important is they all come to
Corsica in the 17th, in the 18thcentury.
(09:57):
And all of them are sort of these Italian mercenaries, Swiss
mercenaries who set up residencein Corsica.
And they basically become the leadership of Corsica.
So they're all from the Italian nobility, but they initially
weren't, They were mercenaries. And they're basically kind of
given a place to go and reward for their services.
So the Ramolinos come from mercenaries and the Bonaparte
(10:19):
come from Tuscan, Tuscan mercenaries, but actually they
were from further north in Italy, Lombardi.
And then they move South. So she's the daughter of the
Ramolino. Ramolino dies and leaves her
mother Minama widowed. Minama is still very young and
beautiful herself. I mean, you know, she's very
young when she gives birth to Letizia, who's her, who's her
(10:40):
oldest daughter. And so so she remarries and she
remarries the Swiss mercenary, aguy named Joseph Fesch, who will
have a son with Minama, who willbe Leticia's stepbrother, Joseph
Fesch, who will later become importantly, Cardinal Fesch.
So that's her background. But she's very young, very
Catholic, going to a Catholic school, being being essentially
(11:01):
educated by nuns. But she's very, very
intelligent. She's literate.
So both, both of these families come from the class that is
literate. And that's how you know, they're
important. They, they're literate.
OK, Now they're literate in Italian, Latin and maybe French.
The 1st 2 languages of Corsica are really Italian and Latin.
(11:23):
All right, So it depends on whether you're in the church or
not, whether you know Latin, butso so she's and she's very
young. She's 14 years old and you're
going to get. Into that, Yeah.
In June 1764, there is a marriage between 14 year old
Letizia, an 18 year old Carlo. How would you describe their
marriage? Was it a happy one?
Because it sounds arranged, sorta.
(11:43):
I don't know if they. Actually, it's absolutely an
arranged marriage. By this point.
The payer familias of the Bonaparte family is no longer
Carlo's father, who's died rightof stomach cancer.
All right. But it's it's Luciano, his
brother. Luciano says, all right, you
know, he tells Carlo's mother Sevaria, you need to get
(12:07):
married. You need to come back from Pisa
and take control of the family because things are going to
change and we need you back here.
We need all the talent we can get.
So they set up this marriage with the Ramolino clan.
So Carlo fellow and and Letizia are promised to each other
without ever seeing each other sort of standard procedure here.
And and he doesn't want to get married.
(12:28):
He's having, you know, a good old time in a college town being
a college Playboy. And so he he he's so upset about
the marriage, he refuses to get married in the church.
So, so they're married in a civil marriage, right?
Because Corsica is self ruled bythe Paoli's and so they're
(12:48):
getting a civil marriage. Very a few nations in Europe do
this. I mean, you know, of course,
it's almost like the United States.
It's this oddball Republic that the Genoese are glad to exist.
So. But Carlo expresses his distaste
for the marriage by saying I refuse to get married in the
church. I'm a man of the Enlightenment.
I'm a man of reason. I don't believe in religious
(13:09):
nonsense. And if you're going to make me
get married. So they get a civil marriage.
And Letizia is horrified. She's a good little Catholic
girl. I mean, she's 14 years old, for
God's sake. I mean, you can't make this
stuff, so it's not a happy marriage.
But they do get pregnant right away.
And Carlo goes on to become Paoli's secretary.
(13:30):
Yeah. And I want to get into that
there's a couple things to this question.
The couple go on to have 13 children of whom mate survived.
Napoleon is a second born child as you mentioned after Joseph
and around the time of Joseph's birth.
Genoa formally seeds course go to France.
The freedom fighter Pasqual Paoli leads an armed resistance
against the French, and Paolo serves as secretary to Paoli.
(13:53):
This is an important position, correct?
So I remember Alexander Hamiltonis a secretary to George
Washington. It's not like how we think of
secretaries now. Yeah, the analogy is extremely
well made. So, so Paola.
So they're married. Leticia gets pregnant.
Paoli sends Carlo off back to Italy where he has an affair and
(14:18):
wastes money. But his whole idea is to get
loans for Corsica from the Florentine bankers, which he
does. He does.
He does that correctly, but he has an affair, very public 1 it
gets back and then on top of it,Leticia has a miscarriage.
So her first pregnancy is a miscarriage.
And Carla comes back and he everybody sort of says, you
(14:39):
know, you're a you're an idiot. But they give him a second
chance and he gets Letizia pregnant and and now she does
have a baby, but it's right in the middle of this war for
independence. And he gives a famous speech in
Corte. Some people say the speech was
really given by Paoli. But when you read the speech,
it's this rousing, you know, call to liberty and defend the
(15:02):
freedom, of course, like againstthe French invaders.
So, so he's one of Paoli's righthand men in the revolution, in
the war of independence that takes place against the French.
You know, it goes poorly. But initially it doesn't.
Initially the French have some setbacks and they have to send
down, they have to send down thefirst string.
(15:23):
Initially they send down the second string with the what they
call the Corsican Legion. Carlo becomes a soldier, a
captain in one of and Paoli's army, and is with Paoli at the
Battle of Novoponta. Yeah, and I know Paoli's one of
Napoleon's biggest, I guess, role models, but we'll we'll
come back to that. Paoli and his supporters are
(15:47):
eventually defeated by the French, and Carlo decides to
ingratiate himself with the French conquerors of Corsica.
How does he do that? OK, so you know, there's a
couple things going on here. So the, the war goes poorly.
They, they send a, a, a French, a new French general down a guy
named the Marquis de Voe. He's got orders from the Doctor
(16:10):
Schwa Seoul to kind of to, to, to make Corsica come to heel.
He sends this guy the Comptomar Boeuf down as his political
adviser. So after this big defeat outside
Corte at the battle of of Newbridge or Ponte Novo,
everybody heads to the hills. Salacetti's flea and Carlo flees
(16:31):
back to to Ajaxio. And he's hiding in the hills of
Ajaxio with his young son, his teenage wife, who's pregnant
with another baby. Who is you know who right,
Napoleon, right. And Marbuf offers the the noble,
the franchise of French nobilityto all of all of the people.
(16:54):
So Luciano, Napoleon's uncle, says, hey, you really need to
accept the franchise. And so so Carlo comes out of the
hills, meets with Marbouf, and he accepts the franchise.
So it's it's not that he's ingratiating himself.
He's only doing what's practical.
And so this is the practical side of the Bonaparte.
Well, that's sort of coming through.
That's what I think would happeneither.
Latizi had to talk with him and said.
Look, we're not running around the hills anymore.
(17:16):
I'm pregnant. You need to get in good with
these new French conquerors and and maybe get into the
aristocracy there and our lives will be more settled.
Yeah, so just about every familyin Corsica accepts the amnesty,
and as a reward, Marbuf gives them all titles of nobility.
(17:36):
Now the first clan gets the biggest title of nobility.
That'll be the Buddhafookos. They basically become barons.
But but Carlo comes in and he's made a Chevalier, a minor
nobility. I think Fesh is also awarded A
Chevalier. So the Ramolino's also come into
the clan. Luciano, because he's a
(17:57):
churchman, gets to retain his rights and responsibilities in
the church. Except now you know he's working
for the French branch of the Catholic Church, not the
Corsican branch. Right, like in April 1770, the
French create the Corsican orderof nobility and Carlo is
included. And although Carlo has many
titles, he isn't satisfied and embarks on what I would call get
(18:19):
rich quick schemes. How do these turn out?
Because I know he's also gambling a great deal at this
time. After one trip to Paris, Carlo
noted quote. In Paris I received 4000 francs
from the king and a fee of 1000 crowns to the government, but I
came back without a penny. End Quote.
Yeah, unfortunately for Carlo, he's probably a pretty good
lawyer, or at least a good enough lawyer.
(18:41):
He, he does get an income, he's granted A bequest, the 4000
francs from the, from the king, you know, but the biggest
advantage of being a noble is that his children qualify for
all of the benefits that come with being part of the French
nobility. Now they're minor nobility, so
there's only kind of two places they can go.
(19:01):
They can go into the army or they can go into the church.
And but that means free education, which is absolutely
huge. And the first one to benefit
from this of Carlos children will be Joseph.
You know, he'll get to go and study at Oxfam province.
He goes to Oxfam Province and studies there initially in the
(19:23):
church, and then he'll switch tobeing a lawyer, decides the
church isn't for him. So, so he, they, they get this.
But yeah, Carlo is a spendthrift.
He doesn't know to handle money.Now, Carlo isn't the only source
of income. All right, Remember, she's got
an income. The Rambolinos have an income.
Luciano has an income. But yeah, Carlo is not very good
with money, and he kind of spends it as quickly as he gets
(19:47):
it. And he's that guy who just can't
seem to to hang on to a dollar bill, or a franc in this case.
Well, Carlo's able to get his two oldest boys, as we
mentioned, in the state-run schools on paid scholarships.
And I think at the age of 9, Napoleon has dropped off at
military school in France by hisfather.
I mean, this must have been really hard for a young
Napoleon, very Spartan accommodations, not knowing
(20:09):
anyone, not being able to speak French fluently.
But at the same time. I'm often amazed that a dad and
course code decided to take his nine year old to a military
college would affect the whole world.
It's such a butterfly effect decision that seems minor at the
time, but I mean it turned into an emperor.
It it's almost over determined. The historians have different
(20:31):
words they use and one of them is over determined.
The first son goes into the church, you know, or inherits,
you know, everything and and Joseph decides he wants to be
the painter familia. So he drops out of the church
and and and goes to become a lawyer to basically follow his
father's footsteps. And the second son goes into the
army. The same thing happens to
(20:51):
Wellington. You know, Wellington is born the
same year and he's not going to be the guy to become Ford
Mornington. He's going to he's going to be
the guy that goes into the army,right.
And he's dropped off too, you know, at a public school, just
like Klausowitz is dropped off at the regiment, you know, when
he's 11. So, you know, all of these
famous men that we're talking about this period, John, they
(21:14):
all have the same pattern. They're all dropped off at a
private school somewhere, usually a military school.
And so Napoleon is just this Italian misfit who gets dropped
off. I mean, he's an adolescent.
So he's he's he's got his hormones kicking in.
He doesn't know the French language.
He's got this idealized vision of Paoli as the father of his
(21:34):
country. And so, you know, even though
his father has abandoned the Paolis, you know, dream of an
independent Corsican Republic, Napoleon never lets go of that
dream. And then he gets dropped off
with a bunch of Snooty strangersat Brienne in the far north.
I mean, he's coming from the land of warmth and in Italy, and
now he's going to this cold, inhospitable northern wasteland
(22:00):
as far as he's concerned. So he's a real odd, he's a real
duck out of water up there in Brienne.
But this will sort of lead to everything that happens.
I would say it shapes his character a little bit though,
that he had to survive in that steer environment.
No. And so he becomes very, very
self reliant. And this is Letizia, right?
So Letizia, the same way she's abandoned by her husband, she's
(22:24):
pregnant, you know, her husband's off in Corte, she's in
a Jack CEO And so she's very self reliant.
And so Napoleon kind of follows in her mold of being very self
reliant. And he's he's insular, he's
introvert. He's an extreme introvert.
There's a Billy Joel song. I wrote this down when I was
looking at your question. It's called the Angry young man,
and that's Napoleon. He's the angry young man.
(22:46):
You know, he's passionate, he's introverted, but he's boring as
hell, right? You know, at least around women
he is. And so that's Napoleon.
He's this introverted, intense, you know, guy, you know, that
people, you know, like, you know, they don't want to be
around him. Anyway, we go back to Carlo.
Well, in 1782 Carlo grows weakerand suffer suffers constantly
(23:08):
pain. He seeks medical attention for
years but dies in February 1785.It is believed to be stomach
cancer, the same disease that also kills Napoleon and Caroline
later on. How are the finances of the
family when he does? OK, let a word on the cancer.
It's congenital and it's a, it'swhat we call a gastric sarcoma.
(23:31):
And I'm a big believer that for the Bonaparte, this is something
that occurs to them in a relatively young age.
They'll get this, this, this type of sarcoma.
There's two type of stomach sarcomas.
There's one that you can get when you're old, and then
there's one that you can get when you're young.
If you get the young one, the only solution is surgery.
(23:52):
Well, the medical science hasn'treached a point where you can go
in and cut one of these things out of a stomach.
The surgery will probably kill you.
Now you might go, why would you know so much about gastric
sarcoma? My own son had it.
He developed it in his early 30sand he had to have surgery to
get it removed. So I always tell my son, I said
you had the same thing that killed Napoleon, but you
(24:14):
survived it, so look what you'regoing to be able to do, right?
So, so let's go back to the question, you know, so the
finances. I was thinking about the
question, you know, how desperate it is when Carlo dies,
you know, but it's not that desperate.
You know, he's got two people that could be sucking the money
down who are on the benefices ofthe French state, Joseph in Oxen
(24:36):
Provence and Napoleon and Brienne.
And then later Napoleon goes to the artillery school and then he
goes to the Nicole military so you don't have to pay for them.
And now who inherits the families finances?
Well, good old self reliant, frugal letizia.
And she's not all by herself. She's not a widow with no means.
(24:56):
She's got the Ramolinos who can still support her because she's
a Ramolino, right? So she's friends with the
fascist and Luciano. Luciano has money.
And so, yeah, she's got all these kids.
Bonaparte leaves her with seven more children.
So, yeah, she's got this brood of kids that she's got to worry
(25:16):
about. And what's the biggest reason
that the Bonaparte's are having money problems, Carlo?
Carlo, well, he's. Dead.
So the guy who's the biggest problem for the Bonaparte
finances is gone. So, you know, part of what I'm
going to try to get across to your listeners here is, yeah,
the financial circumstances are tight, bordering on desperate
(25:38):
because of all these young children.
However, she's got a pretty goodsafety net there in Corsica.
And it's only going to be when Joseph and and Napoleon come
back and, and try to sort of create this, this, this, this
league with Paoli and then have the break with Paoli and the
(26:00):
whole French Revolution and the British come come to Corsica
that things are really going to get tight.
So it's not until that happens that things get really tight
when the Bonaparte sort of have to flee Corsica for southern
France. Right.
And I think that's where Let's Easier learns her frugality is
during this time. Yeah, it's when she gets to
France and she really has to be tight fisted.
(26:22):
But now she's got two more benefactors and she lets them
know. She lets Giuseppe and Napoleon.
No, you 2 have got to provide the money for the family.
We don't have our family safety net in in a jaxio anymore to
help us. We're we're now we really are
totally on our own widths to make our money because we don't
(26:45):
have the family lands and we don't have the family house and
everything in a jaxio. Well, in 1786, Napoleon returns
home after eight years away. He's now serving as a Lieutenant
in the French artillery, so he has a little bit of money.
But things get worse. In 1793, Napoleon and his
brothers break relations from Paoli and Paoli's supporters,
(27:06):
ransack and burn the Bonaparte family home, and Napoleon and
his mother and the siblings get away with just the clothes on
their backs. Letizia, now destitute, arrives
in France and relies on soup kitchens and Napoleon's salary
to get by. I mean, this is probably the
lowest point for the whole family I would think.
Yeah, and this is the impact of the French Revolution.
OK, The the the whole idea of liberty, equality and and
(27:30):
fraternity, you know, it just doesn't work out.
All right. And and and Napoleon and his
brothers efforts to sort of leadthe charge for Corsican
independence. You know, runs the foul of Paoli
when Paoli kind of it makes common cause with the British,
who are the biggest enemies of the French Revolution.
(27:51):
And so now they're Republicans. They're not nobility.
They can't, you know, oh, we're nobility.
We, we deserve all of the largest of the state.
No, well, now it's the Republic and it's, you know, career of
talents, right. Well, the only careers going on
here are Napoleon's and Joseph's.
And so Napoleon and Joseph and and Leticia now have to come up
(28:13):
with the means. And so when they're living in
Marseille, this circumstances are very, very tight.
You know, they're, they're, theybecome all of a sudden at a
stroke, they become part of the lower middle class.
And when they're citizens and this idea that they deserve
anything because of their bloodline is complete nonsense.
And they become Jacobins. They go, Yep, we're Jacobins.
(28:34):
You know, the working man's, youknow, intelligentsia elite or
the Republican intelligentsia. And so who do they make common
cause with? Well, they make common cause
with the ropes, Piers, you know,and, and, and so Letizia sees
her sons become these radical Republicans.
And all of the children follow suit except the youngest, who
(28:55):
still, you know, you know, they're still in the nursery
being taken care of by Letizia. And they're faithful Nurse
Camilla. So she she flees there.
So, you know, so Letizia is like, hey, I need some money,
guys. You need some promotions, right?
And those of law practice isn't bringing in a lot of money.
And all of a sudden Napoleon becomes the man.
(29:16):
You gotta you gotta get promoted.
And so Napoleon goes, OK, I'll line up with the with the roast
beers if that's the way that I can get patronage so that I can
advance in the ranks. Well, it's interesting to me.
And the older ones knew how direit was.
Like Napoleon. Joseph.
Wasn't that frugal, Lucian? But the younger ones seem to be
the most spoiled, maybe just because they never experienced
(29:39):
that, that that hard time, like Jerome, Caroline, you know, to
Pauline, you know, they were more spoiled, the younger ones
than the older ones. Yeah, they are.
You know, in this period between1793 and 1795 is the period
where where Leticia is probably the most desperate in terms of
money, but she's confident that Napoleon and Joseph can deliver.
(30:03):
And of course, the one who's going to deliver is going to be
Napoleon, the one who's most like her, you know, did.
Hard worker. Yeah, she knows.
Yeah. Well, circumstances improve when
Napoleon becomes famous after the Victoria siege of Toulon and
suppressing the Paris revolt in 1795.
Napoleon gets promoted, has a more sizeable income to take
(30:24):
care of his family. However, a new problem arises in
the form of Josephine. Why did Letizia and the rest of
the family disapprove of Josephine?
Yeah, it's just like just when the family's got everything
together and Napoleon becomes a general as a reward, you know,
for his loyalty to the very corrupt government that also is
(30:47):
rapacious and rewards, you know,people who support it with lots
of money. S Napoleon hits the jackpot with
the whiff of grape shot. He falls in love with Bara's
mistress, which is intentional. Bara wants to get rid of his
mistress because she spends money like it's going out of
style so he fobs her off on Napoleon and that's why nobody
(31:09):
supports this marriage. Josephine is notorious in her
ability to spend money and create debt so that's why the
family doesn't approve. They want Napoleon to marry a a
more sensible girl like Letizia.Yeah, and and, you know, you
jump forward a few years when Napoleon wants his brothers and
sisters to marry nobility. But they make the very good
(31:30):
point. Like you didn't marry nobility.
You married some lady who's older than you who had two kids,
a divorcee. So I could see the friction
between the family. Like, well, you're you're
telling us one thing. But then you went and married
Josephine. Yeah, and that's kind of the
answer to your next question. Yeah, which is, you know, that's
why Letizia doesn't come to the coronation.
She detests Josephine. They almost get Josephine.
(31:51):
Anyway, Napoleon comes home and,and, and she's having an affair
with that Hippolyte guy and, andNapoleon is furious, you know,
and, and Eugen and Hortens have to beg Napoleon to forgive their
mother and Letizia and Joseph and the whole clan are like,
great, he's going to divorce her, right?
Because this is the Republic, you know, you can get rid of
(32:11):
her, right? And they come over to the house
and Napoleon's back in bed with Josephine and they're like rats,
right? You know, So they, they detest
Josephine. None of them like her, all
right? Not not A1, not a one of them
like Sir. It's fascinating, though, that
in the famous artwork by JacquesLouis David, you know, he paints
(32:33):
let's easy in there even though she wasn't there.
Yeah, and, and Napoleon knows that.
I mean, he could have given his mother a big grand title.
She didn't want one. She was just happy to be as you
say, you know who she was. Yeah, well, Napoleon still
granted her an annual statement of 500,000 francs.
And Madame Marie, as she's now known, famously saved the money
(32:55):
saying about the opulence that Napoleon and his siblings lived
in. You know, so long as it lasts,
why does she remain distant fromthe imperial court?
Is it Josephine? Is it she didn't want to be
around all that opulence? Why didn't she want to be around
all that? Well.
That's one of those questions that's hard to answer.
We can only speculate, right? And I think one, she didn't want
(33:16):
to be around Josephine. She didn't want to be around a
court dominated by Josephine. Now, Napoleon sisters will and
they'll fight with Josephine andtry to become the dominant
influence at French court. But, you know, as long as
Josephine around, she's kind of snapping the whip, you know, and
because she's the master of Paris Salon society.
(33:37):
But Leticia goes, you know, I'm not even going to try.
And so she goes back to her homeland, Italy, and and kind of
kind of maintains her distance. Yeah, well, in 1814 she
accompanies Napoleon to his exile and Elba, and she later
encourages him to return to France to reclaim his throne.
Do you think she was his biggestsupporter?
(33:59):
No, but I think she's kind of his second biggest supporter.
I I think Napoleon's biggest supporter is Maria Volanska, his
his Polish mistress when all thechips are down.
Napoleon's biggest supporters are Joseph and Maria.
Even though Joseph mishandles the ball in 1814 and again sort
of in 1815, he he still loves his brother and supports him.
(34:22):
Just Joseph has got to be one ofthe best older brothers of all
time. Although Lucian I think spoke
truth to Napoleon and he loved Napoleon too, but he wasn't
willing to compromise his values.
But Letizia does support him. She does see the mess that
France is in. She sees it as low hanging
fruit. She thinks, well, he's learned
his lesson. She just doesn't understand the
animosity the rest of Europe hastowards her genius, brilliant
(34:46):
son. You know, and, and and that they
just don't trust him. Well, it's interesting.
Like, you know, all children think they're special in their
mom's eyes. And, and in Napoleon's case, he
was. But then she had these other
seven siblings who she loved. But, you know, like, famously.
After Napoleon's downfall in 1815, Letizia retires to Rome
(35:06):
and she never speaks to CarolineBonaparte ever again for
betraying her brother Napoleon, right?
Oh, right, right. Yeah.
The Carolyn is the is the Fredo of the family.
She you know she's dead to Letizia after she does that.
Yeah, yeah, because her and Mura, you know, joined the
Allies and and the. Right.
And then Mura, you know, could never make up his mind
(35:27):
completely. And then he he switches sides
again. And, and that tragedy is just
incredible, right? So, yeah, Letizia retires to
Rome. She's protected by the Pope.
She had been very, she'd always been very kind and generous to
the Pope. And he remembered that.
And Pius, so Pius said, hey, Letizia is a good Catholic girl.
(35:48):
You know, one of the reasons theconcordant happens is Letizia's
influence on her son. And so she's under my protection
and she goes back to her homeland, Italy.
We, you know, we kind of keep remembering the Bonaparte's are
as much Italian as they are French and Napoleon sisters,
totally Italian. Elisa is Italian and that's
where her lands are and where she spends the bulk of her life
(36:10):
is in. So it's no accident that, you
know, that they all end up back either in Italy or in America.
It's it's fascinating what happens in the Bonaparte.
Well, Letizia dies in 1836 at the old age of 85.
The legacy of Letizia, Napoleon once said.
Quote. The future destiny of the child
is always the work of the mother.
(36:30):
End Quote. So I guess it's a two-part
question. What is Leticia's legacy and
Carlos legacy? So I'm going to use some
classical illusions here. Carlos is pretty easy.
You know, he's he's the father. You know, he's the man married
to the woman, right? So there there's all these great
leaders in history. We know about their mothers.
OK? We know about Caesar's mother.
(36:52):
She's dynamic. She's a pusher, a social
climber. We know about Churchill's
mother, Jenny, Jenny Randolph. She's a climber, she's a pusher.
We know about Cornelia, mother of the crack eye, She's a
pusher. We don't know about the father.
So Carlo's legacy is sort of hidden, you know, from history.
It's there. There should be more there, but
(37:14):
but again, you know, the Carlo'sbiggest legacy to the Bonaparte
says he marries well, well and and and give.
Him Credit for dropping Napoleonoff at Brianna, Yeah.
The decision to take advantage of, of what the French court and
the French king are offering. When you think about the
generosity of Louis the 15th andthe Doctor Schwa Sul and Marbouf
(37:35):
towards the Corsicans, you have to go.
You know, the French behaved well in that circumstance.
They could have been much, much worse than they were.
But Letizia's legacy is she's the mother of the crack eye, you
know, But it's the crack eye on steroids, you know.
And I mean, all of Napoleon's, you know, brothers become kings,
all right? And Letizia's a mother of kings
(37:57):
and an emperor. So, you know, when we think
about her legacy, her legacy is absolutely this family who will
continue to dominate Europe longafter Napoleon's dead with,
with, with her grandnephew, Louis Louis Napoleon, Napoleon
the 3rd, and even in in the United States with the Secretary
(38:18):
of the Navy, Charles Bonaparte. So I mean, she's got an
incredible legacy. Give her full credit, though,
she didn't let the opulence and the money go to her head like
some part of her her children. She kind of stayed, you know,
austere and and and and frugal throughout.
Yeah, and her, she's one of these people.
She's constrained by the mores of society on what she can do,
(38:39):
how much power she could wield. Certainly Carolyn didn't want to
be constrained by those mores. Pauline just wanted to be a
pretty face on the arm of a handsome man.
But. But not Carolyn.
And but Letizia shows you what could be accomplished back then
by a woman who had a good head on her shoulders and a will of
iron. And you know, we talked about
(39:00):
the Iron Marshall Davu. Leticia is the Iron Mother.
That's a good ending right there.
I love that. Well, thank you for that, John.
Once again, John has a really interesting book called The
Bonaparts of Corsica that hopefully is coming out soon one
day. If somebody wants to share it,
then you know, I'm willing to share it.
You know, I shared it with a couple people already, my
brother. You know, I like the Bonaparts.
(39:22):
I've been sharing my stuff with my family but.
Yeah, you can also find John on Twitter.
What's the tag again? It's J Kuhn, 50 at JQ and 50.
I'm also in Blue Sky at JQ and 50, so you can find me at either
Blue Sky or Twitter. OK.
Yeah. So please give John a follow
there. And yeah, as always, we thank
you for coming on. Thanks, John.
(39:42):
Great, John. Thanks for having me on.
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