Jeff Belanger on Paris Catacombs, Mount Kilimanjaro, and the Power of Ghost Stories

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In this episode of Generation X Paranormal, hosts Logan and Nicole engage with renowned author and paranormal researcher Jeff Belanger. Jeff shares his chilling experience in the Paris Catacombs, where he encountered an unexplained shadow figure, marking his transition from skeptic to believer. He also recounts his spiritual journey climbing Mount Kilimanjaro in honor of his late brother-in-law, highlighting a profound connection beyond death.​

Jeff discusses the significance of ghost stories in understanding human history and introduces his latest project, Shadow Zine, a monthly paranormal magazine.​Tune in for an enlightening conversation that bridges the realms of the living and the unexplained.

https://jeffbelanger.com

https://shadowzine.com

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I was walking down a long hallway toward the exit
there was, and it was just as Imean.
You know, if I put my hands outon either side, that's how wide
it was I saw what looked likethe shadow of a man.
Just step out from one side andgo to the other, and then he
went back again and I said, allright, wait a minute.
I thought I was alone and thenI thought, okay, there must be.

(00:21):
My default is always explain itaway.
Because if you can explain itaway.
You should?
Yeah, absolutely.
And then I'm looking and I'mlike, no, I kept going, there's
no side tunnel, it's juststraight all the way to the end.
And I just went oh, if that'snot a ghost, I don't have
another word, thank you well,hey everybody, welcome back.

Speaker 3 (01:24):
Hey everyone, this is Generation X Paranormal.
I'm Logan and I'm Nicole.
Guys, we have got a heck of ashow for you.
Yes, we do.
Every one of our guests havebeen just amazing.
I love all our guests.
I mean, we've had some amazingpeople, and today is absolutely
no different.
We have arguably one of the.

(01:46):
I mean, if there is aforefather of the paranormal,
he's one of them.
He's been doing it for so longand, of course, we're talking
about Jeff Bellinger.
So what can you tell us aboutJeff?

Speaker 2 (01:58):
Jeff Bellinger is an author, podcaster, storyteller,
adventurer and explorer of theunexplained.
He's written more than a dozenbooks that have been published
in six languages.
He served as a producer, writerand researcher on numerous
television series, includingevery episode of ghost
adventures.
He's an emmy nominated host,writer and producer of the new

(02:20):
england legends series on PBSand Amazon Prime.
He also hosts the award-winningNew England Legends weekly
podcast, which has garnered over6 million downloads since its
launch.
He's a publisher of Shadowzine,a new monthly paranormal
magazine.

Speaker 3 (02:38):
Awesome.
Yeah, guys, this is going to begreat, and let's just talk to
Jeff.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
Let's talk to Jeff.

Speaker 3 (02:46):
Well, hey, Jeff, how you doing.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
I'm good.
How are you guys we're doing?

Speaker 3 (02:49):
great Welcome to Generation X, paranormal.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
I'm in the right place.
I am Generation X.

Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yes, yes, as a matter of fact, in doing some of our
crack investigative work, youdid investigative work on crack.
Well, yes, but I don't thinkthis is the podcast for that.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
But anyway, Okay, fair Crack is whack, as our
people would say.

Speaker 3 (03:11):
I've heard that for years and it's probably true.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
I've never tried.
They don't say it anymore.
No, they don't.
I know they don't say whack.

Speaker 3 (03:17):
I mean throw away a good thing.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
Sorry go on.

Speaker 3 (03:21):
Anyway, I found out we're probably only, I think, a
month apart in age, so it waskind of cool, I was that old.
I am that old, I am, yeah, sameto you.
I it sucks but it's OK, I don'tmind it.
There's some good parts to ittoo.
But but yeah, you know kind ofjust rolling into everything.
You know, obviously anybodywho's probably listening to this

(03:46):
knows a good portion of whatyou've done in the past and
things of that nature.
But I think the one thing thatthat a lot of people don't get a
sense of and I'm gonna, I'mprobably gonna put you on the
spot a little bit here but youknow you meet a lot of people
and you go through a lot ofthese things and you're just a
genuine guy and I think Iappreciate that so much Because
You're just a genuine guy.
And I think I appreciate thatso much because, seriously,
though, you know you look atlike 30 odd minutes when you

(04:09):
know things are just sort of inthe beginning or sort of you
know some time ago, right towhen we met at Missouri Paracon.
I mean you're just kind of thesame guy all the way through and
it's so appreciated.
I just wanted to let you knowthat.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
I don't really know how to be anything else, logan,
but thanks, I guess.
For sure it's 30-odd minutes.
Boy, that's black.
You know what's funny?
We take it for granted.
This is 30-odd minutes, right,but I was doing it at a cable
access station with bubble gumand duct tape.
There was no.
Streamyard, there was no zoom.
Yeah, we had tin cans and wireand um, it was wild.

(04:47):
I went into this local cableaccess station and um, and I I
said, hey, I want to try tofigure this thing out.
Uh, because the reality is, anytown's cobalt cable access
station has, at any given time,four, sometimes five viewers.
Right, right, like I mean mayberight, I'm being generous sure,
sure, if it's like rating sweepweek, you know and so when

(05:10):
you're asking someone to come ona show that's going to reach
four people, you could literallygo to a grocery store and just
yell I've got a new book outright, you're gonna reach more
people right.
so then I said, all right, howcan we do this?
How can we do this thing wherewe get it online and we do it?
Fine, you can do it locally,sure, but I'm only going to
reach four people locally, buthow do we do this thing?
And so, myself and this youngguy that worked at the cable

(05:35):
access station they had a greenscreen, we had a laptop, we had
Skype, and we were figuring outa way to get the laptop into the
broadcast system and then up onthe screen, and then I would
look at like a pretend pointjust like a weather person you
know, telling the news.
Yeah, and we, just we riggedthat thing, like you know, like
you wouldn't believe.

Speaker 3 (05:55):
It's so cool though it was bubblegum and duct tape.
I'm sure then it was, and wesomehow made it work.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
Oh yeah, and then we gave the show to like every
other cable.
There's a, there was a servicecalled peg media, which is
public education and governmentand whatever.
You could upload it for freeand anybody could download it
for free.
So we were on like 200 publicaccess stations around the
country, wow.
And then it was on youtube andthen it was streaming live and
so all that together was like anaudience, a real audience, you

(06:23):
know and um and it was so muchfun.
And now you, you young kids,take it for granted when you
just turn on your stream yard oryour zooms and you're like oh
look at us.
We got a green screenbackground.

Speaker 3 (06:34):
Oh, we did all that with like paint and you know
Foley artists and stuff, right,oh, foley Gosh man, but anyway,
so, but that was a great timeand I got to talk to so many
cool people.

Speaker 1 (06:46):
Some of them were my friends, some were people I
didn't know, and it was like aparanormal talk show video
before anyone else could do itand now everybody does it.
But it was a lot of fun, butthanks for mentioning it that
was a blast from the past.
Oh, for sure.

Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, we watched a few.

Speaker 3 (06:59):
Yeah, a few, and I think what cracks me up is just
now.
Look, I'm sure at the time itwas like you know, it's really
hectic and it was, you know,probably stressful.
But looking at it now I'm likeit's so cool because it's so
like retro and it's so you know,it's all the things I remember,
you know, growing up so it'slike takes you back?
Yeah, it takes you back, soit's really cool, but um so how?

Speaker 1 (07:20):
so?
One more thing like how couldyou not be down to earth when
you're at a cable access station?

Speaker 3 (07:24):
Right.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
Like toggling switches with your feet right.
Exactly and like you know theold guy that's going to be
yelling at a fern on the stage.

Speaker 3 (07:33):
His shows up next Right Between two ferns.

Speaker 1 (07:37):
It's pretty easy to stay humble.
I'm just saying, you know whatI mean.

Speaker 3 (07:41):
I get it, I do, I really it, I do, I really do.
But no, it's really cool and welove the fact.
You know, can you bring in yourfamily involved?
We watched the Dave SchraderCinco de Mayo thing where
Sophie's painting your face.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
That was so cute.
She is so cute, by the way.

Speaker 3 (07:55):
Thanks yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:57):
So yeah, we're big fans.
It is what it is.

Speaker 3 (08:01):
That was a COVID thing, wasn't it?

Speaker 1 (08:03):
yeah, it was so, yeah , yeah, those days.
So, um, yeah, my daughter'solder now, I mean she's about to
graduate high school, but it'sfunny how, um, when we did that,
uh, we were just like what dowe do?
Right people like dave, peoplelike me.
If we don't have an audience,we'll die right do you, we'll

(08:23):
die without an audience.

Speaker 3 (08:25):
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (08:26):
And I'm like Dave, what do we do?
Just to do anything.
He's like I don't know.
Let's have our kids put makeupon us on Zoom or something.
I'm like fine, whatever.

Speaker 2 (08:34):
It was cool, it was really awesome.
It was fun to watch.

Speaker 3 (08:37):
Yeah, and it was a lot more.
It was interesting how theywere trying to pitch questions
and you're like, well, I can'tlook, so it's like from behind
it's just hilarious, but uh, butanyway, we're gonna get into
the, the, the paranormal stuffand all that here in a second.
But there is one thing that Iknow, nicole, and I want to ask
you, because it is so beyondparanormal and and honestly, for

(08:59):
me it's like, wow, how did youdo that?
But kilimanjaro man, geez, ohyeah, wow, yeah, uh, if you do
that, but Kilimanjaro man geez,oh yeah, Wow.
Yeah, If you don't mind, justtake a couple seconds.
Kind of what got you to thatpoint and wow.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yeah, yeah.
So I climbed Mount Kilimanjaroin 2017.
And I've always been a hiker,ever since you know, college,
and Kilimanjaro was on my bucketlist because it's one of the
seven summits, one of thetallest summit in Africa, and I
love the song Gen X, right.
I love the song Africa by.

Speaker 2 (09:32):
Toe Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
Growing up just as sure as Kilimanjaro rises like
Olympus above the Serengeti, andso that was part of it.
And then it's also one of thetallest mountains.
That's not a technical climb,which means you're not hanging
by ropes or anything Like.
There's a path where, if youcan hoof it, you can get
yourself to the top Right.
So it was on my list.

(09:55):
And then in 2015, mybrother-in-law, chris.
He got sick with cancer and hewent through a process a dying
process that was over two years,and during that time, he and I
got a lot closer to each other,because he's like man, you're
into some weird stuff, and Isaid yeah yeah, that's true.
When he said, and I'm goingthrough something pretty weird,

(10:16):
I said that's true too.
And so we talked about this,this thing dying death, you know
, I mean, and when you'retalking about the paranormal,
that is, the elephant in theroom, right, it's really what
we're talking about, truly,right.
I mean, it's kind of a criticalpart of the equation.
So Chris and I talked a lot, wegot a lot closer and, you know,

(10:36):
as he declined, it was just, itwas really special and I'm
forever grateful to him for that.
And by the time he passed, youknow, I just remember it was
such a blow to my family mynephew was five at the time, his
son, you know and I was justlike, oh my gosh, this could
happen to anybody.

(10:56):
Six months later I was doing acharity event a historic
fundraiser at a historic homeand a woman I know from the
Leukemia and Lymphoma Societyhistoric fundraiser at a
historic home and a woman I knowfrom the leukemia lymphoma
society.
Um, she said, hey, jeff, we gotanother fundraiser coming up
and I was like, uh, you know,I've helped them in the past.
And I was like, all right, youknow, if I can, if I can help, I
will.
What's going on?
She said we're gonna climbmount kilimanjaro to raise money

(11:17):
for cancer.
And I just went, oh, and it waslike in a, in a movie, you know
, where all the action for allthe characters stopped except
the two talking.
That's what happened Likeeverything froze and the record
scratched.
And I'm like did you sayKilimanjaro to raise money for
cancer research, and I just wentwell, when is it?
And she said it would be March2017.

(11:38):
And I said that's a good timeof year for me.
If it's October, if it's fall,there's no way I could do it.
And I went I'm in, I've got todo this.
And so we trained, we raisedmoney, we did it, and then it
was six days to the top, to19,341 feet, and it was

(11:58):
absolutely life-changing.
It was deeply spiritual,especially at the end.
It was amazing to be unplugged.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
No.

Speaker 1 (12:05):
Wi-Fi, no internet, no phones.
Day one is just stressful whatif someone needs me?
And day two, you're just likeall right, well, the world's
going to keep spinning whetherI'm on my email or not.
And then to get that unpluggedand then that connected to
myself and to something muchbigger.
And it was profound, that'sjust all I can say it was.

(12:27):
And by by the time we made,made for the summit, watching
this sunrise, you know, fromhigh above the clouds, you know
the cloud bank just way belowyou, and seeing this golden sun
come up.
And there's a Swahili term forthe top, which means you know
where, where the house of God,or where God dwells, because
they believe only those that Goddeems worthy is allowed up
there.
And I felt Chris at that moment, and I felt this incredible

(12:51):
connection that I will never,ever forget.
In fact, I got a tattoo of it.
It's the only tattoo I have.

Speaker 3 (12:56):
Oh, that's amazing.

Speaker 1 (12:57):
It's the only thing I felt like you know, marking my
body up permanently for Well,yeah.
I mean if wouldn't rule outanother, but also but it was so,
so deeply spiritual and I justcame back a different person and
I'll never forget it.
I still kind of sort of want todo it again.

Speaker 3 (13:16):
Yeah, that would be cool, that would be amazing.
Yeah, and I know you wrote abook about it and it is
definitely on my short list ofthings I want to read.
It was a colleague.

Speaker 1 (13:26):
He dies at the end.
Oh, no, he doesn't.

Speaker 3 (13:28):
No, no, you better not because otherwise I am
talking to a full-bodiedapparition.
But no, we definitely wanted tocheck it out and you know,
obviously you've gone to somegreat places.
I know you travel, you do someadventuring and I know you've
been to Machu Picchu, which megajealous.
Yeah, no kidding, and the Pariscatacombs, and I guess I read

(13:52):
that that was your first ghostexperience.
What?

Speaker 1 (13:56):
happened.
So I'd been writing aboutghosts for six years when I went
to Paris.
I started ghostvillagecom in1999, and I'd already been
writing about ghosts since 1997.
And then I was working at awhole other field, a whole other
world, and they sent me toParis for work.

(14:17):
So we had a day to ourselvesand some of my colleagues were
like we're going to go to theLouvre and check out the you
know, mona Lisa, or whatever youwant to go.
And I was like we're going togo to the Louvre and check out
the you know, mona Lisa, orwhatever you want to go.
And I was like I'll catch upwith you later, I'm going
underground.
And so Paris is beautiful, it'san incredible city.
It sprawls, it's not a tallcity at all, it just goes out

(14:39):
forever in the distance andthere's all these great
limestone buildings.
And to get to that limestoneeventually they had to tunnel
under the city.
And as they tunneled andtunneled and the city got denser
and bigger, they had twoproblems the cemeteries that
were on the outskirts were nowno longer on the outskirts, they
were encircled and there was nomore room for the dead.
They were just piling upcorpses in these boneyards and

(15:01):
the buildings are starting tocollapse into the hollow ground
underneath, so they had to shoreit all up, empty the cemeteries
, which is, you know, auniversal taboo Sure.
So I go down there um, you know, it was about 10, 30, 11 in the
morning, sound, mind and body,sober.
You know the whole thing, right.
And, uh, I go down there andI'm the only one down there,
it's, it's very quiet, it, downthere, it's, it's very quiet,

(15:25):
it's just like water drippingthrough the limestone.
It's completely silent.
And I get to this doorway thatsays in french you know, stop,
this is the empire of the dead.
And then, when I walked through, there was millions of human
skeletons all around me and Ijust got the hebes and the gbs
at the same time and, um, andthen eventually you start to
calm down.
It's sort of beautiful, right,I mean the intricacies of the
bones and the design, and I'mwalking around and I'm going all

(15:48):
right, the signs that tell youwhere the bones came from.
And then, as I was walking downa long hallway toward the exit,
there was, and it was just as Imean, you know, if I put my
hands out on either side, that'show wide it was.
Wow, I saw what looked like theshadow of a man, just step out
from one side and go to theother.
And then he went back again andI said, all right, wait a
minute.
I thought I was alone and thenI thought, okay, there must be.

(16:13):
My default is always explain itaway.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
Right.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
Because if you can explain it away, you should.
Yeah, absolutely.
And then I'm looking and I'mlike, no, I kept going, there's
no side tunnel, it's juststraight all the way to the end.
And I just went oh, if that'snot a ghost, I don't have
another word.
And then I thought about mylast name.
It's Belanger, but over thereit's pronounced Belanger.
Yes, right, it is a French name, even though my family's been

(16:38):
here for like four generationsnow.
Sure, but I but I'm like my DNAis down here somewhere right
like it's in some of these bones, somewhere somehow there's
strands or something, and I justthought it was.
It was one of those thingswhere it took weeks to like
fully sink in, because at thatpoint I'd interviewed hundreds
of people about their ghostexperiences and I was sort of

(16:59):
took the position like well, Ibelieve that you believe I'm not
gonna call you a liar, I wasn'tthere, you know, but I believe
that you believe.
I'm not going to call you a liar.
I wasn't there, you know, but Idon't know.
But once I had that experience,I went.
I just lost an awful lot ofobjectivity here today.
You know, I'm like, I'm abeliever.
I admit it.
I'm still skeptical, plentyskeptical.
However, I've had a few thatwas the first and I've had a few

(17:20):
experiences where I go allright, I got nothing.
If that's not paranormal, thenI lack another word to explain
what it is that I experienced.

Speaker 3 (17:28):
Oh, 100% I mean, but talk about one of the very first
places you get to go is thecatacombs in Paris.
I mean what was your first?
I want to know?
Mine was in San Antonio, so itwas about as far from Paris as
you can get In the basement ofthe Alamo with Pee Wee's bike.
Yeah, I can't do the voice, no,but no, we were.
I was driving back and sheknows this already, but I was on

(17:51):
a date with somebody else andit was a long time ago.
But we were coming back and-.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
That hussy?
Yeah, like I care it wasforever ago, if she's listening
it is what it is, but pleasedon't no go on, Sorry.

Speaker 3 (18:10):
It's okay, we're driving and we see go across the
freeway from one spot toanother and I'm using my hands
here, so those are listening,you're going to love this.
But from left to right, we seeat first what I thought was like
a glad bag, you know, like a, Iguess, basically like a trash
bag.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:29):
And it was just kind of floating in the wind kind of
doing its thing.
And I'm like, as we got closer,I'm like that is not a garbage
bag, it was about as much of ashadow kind of conglomeration
that went across.
And when it got to the sidewhere the shoulder is to get off
the freeway, poof gone.
And I looked at the person Iwas with and said, and before I

(18:53):
could even utter the word, shegoes did you see that?
And I'm like, oh, 100%, I sawthat.
And it was like okay, that wasone of those, you're right, and
I was in the Army at the timeand you're just like, you know,
you, you know you're gonnarationalize everything and, uh,
that had nothing, absolutelynothing and and the fact that
someone else is there is sohelpful, right?

Speaker 1 (19:15):
because?
If you were alone, you couldjust go.
I don't know, but someone elsesaid that saw the same thing.

Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah and uh I'm gonna offer you my professional
opinion on what it is.

Speaker 1 (19:23):
you saw, demon, I mean.

Speaker 3 (19:27):
I wasn't there, I have no idea, but I'm going with
demon.
It's a demon.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
Let's start there.

Speaker 3 (19:32):
Rubber stamp Demon it is.

Speaker 1 (19:33):
It is All right, Nicole, your turn.
We're sharing.

Speaker 2 (19:36):
Okay.
So I don't know how old I was.
I'm going to guess between sixand eight and eight okay, but I
grew up in a haunted house andmy mother saw a lot of stuff.
But the first thing that I canactually remember and it stuck
with me because it wasterrifying is in my bedroom I
had a very long, dark, deepcloset like a narrow.
It was all like dark wood onthe inside and it had just like

(19:59):
the swingy light oh yeah, youknow the one that's in every
home, yeah, yeah yeah, but itwas open those are like five
bucks to replace, but go on.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
Thanks, mom and dad.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
Yeah, go on but I woke up one night and I just
felt like something drawing metowards the closet in my bed and
I could see it just from acrossthe room and I hated that
closet growing up like.
I never wanted to look at it.
I always turned away from itwhile I was sleeping.
But that night, for some reason, I turned and looked and from
the back of the closet there wasa face that just came forward

(20:31):
that looked like my aunt at thetime and it was smiling at me
and as it got closer it wentfaster and then the grin turned
in kind of like um, the grinch'sgrin, you know where it's kind
of like and then it just turnedevil and the eyes were red and
like these teeth came out and itjust like rushed at me and I
remember like throwing thecovers back and screaming and

(20:52):
running out of the room to myparents and that has stuck with
me forever okay, my professionalopinion on that one babadook.

Speaker 1 (21:01):
I'm just kidding demon for mine yeah, it's a
demon no that's.
Oh my god, that's scary, that'slike horror movie stuff.

Speaker 3 (21:08):
Oh yeah, yes, like amityville type stuff yeah, yeah
, that's really frightening.

Speaker 1 (21:13):
Yeah, oh, no wonder you turned out okay.

Speaker 2 (21:15):
Yeah, of course that's why we that's what we do
yeah, we do what we do, we'researching.

Speaker 3 (21:20):
Absolutely, we drink yeah, oh, that's for sure why,
yeah, that's that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
No, that's for boy.
You never forget that,especially when you're young and
impressionable.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:28):
Oh, I can still see the face.

Speaker 1 (21:29):
Yeah, in my memories I'm a DIYer, like replacing
those dangling, scary, horriblelight bulbs would cost you like
five bucks for like a littlething and yeah, it's nothing.

Speaker 2 (21:45):
And it's an yourself.
Just turn the breaker and do it.
I would never even walk in thatcloset.
I remember when I was forced toclean my room and put stuff
away.
I just stand about five feetaway and throw stuff.
Why is?

Speaker 1 (21:52):
your closet, so messy nicole makes perfect mom, do
you know what's?

Speaker 2 (21:56):
in there yeah, it was creepy well, it is creepy.

Speaker 3 (22:02):
wow, it's interesting how these experiences kind of
just usher you into this world.
It's just, it's amazing.
And you know you're 100 percentright, because I'm I'm more the
skeptic, she's more, I wouldn'tsay the believer, but I'm
definitely the more skeptic andI immediately something happens.
I'm a mockums razor.
I'm in there going, ok, it'sgot to be, you know, and knowing

(22:25):
her family and knowingeverything that had happened,
you know, it's one of thosewhere you're like, of course
that happened.
There's no way to you know thatknowing the validity behind it
was not a question.
It's just like, wow, what inthe world could that have been?
You know, yeah, it's just wild,it is absolutely wild.

(22:46):
But listen, listen, getting onto uh, kind of kind of some of
the stuff that you got goingafter 30 odd minutes, um.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
So which was like 2007, by the way, it's quite
some time ago, yeah, almost 20years.

Speaker 3 (22:54):
Yeah, that's just wild.
It's that long.
Um so, new England Legends and,and it's amazing, there's two
Emmy nominations behind it.
So we know it's it's amazing.
But uh, what two Emmynominations behind it.
So we know it's amazing.
But what a great place to be.
And I know you're from there Tohave that rich a history.
What kind of led you down thatroad?
Was it just to kind of bring upthat history so other people

(23:17):
could kind of get to know it?

Speaker 1 (23:20):
So when I first started in this, my website was
global and I was in Paris andhad my first ghost experience.
My first book was in 2004.
It was called the World's MostHaunted Places.
I picked haunts mainly fromEnglish-speaking countries
because that's where I couldinterview people, but all over
the world I'm like I got to beglobal.
I got to be global.
Then I was asked to write thisbook called Weird Massachusetts

(23:43):
back in 2006.
I was part of the Weird USseries and I fell into the trap,
the horrible trap that everyone of us falls into thinking
all the cool places aresomewhere else and somewhere far
from me.
Right, it's not true.
Right, you live somewhere veryfar from most of us, you know,

(24:04):
and you have really cool placesin your own backyard.
And it's embarrassing whenyou're like I didn't even go
there because I figured it wouldalways be there.
It's a half hour from my house.
Why would I go?
You'd there?
Because I figured it wouldalways be there.
It's a half hour from my house.
Why would I go?
You'd go because it's cool.
You'd go because it's amazingand it's got a great story.
So once I started poppingaround Massachusetts and doing
what I do all over the world,but doing it near home.

(24:25):
I was like wow, and I could getin deeper around here.
You know I'm not have to pay forhotel rooms and all that other
stuff yeah, no kidding.
And so that was part of it.
And then I was part of adocumentary called Things that
Go Bump in the Night for PBS,and I met this producer and we
discovered we were born in thesame hospital, like a month
apart.
And you know like and then weboth love these stories and I

(24:47):
said how cool would it be to dolike a series of this, like
where we just cover these weirdstories around New England?
And so that's how it started.
It started as a TV project.
We got no funding, it wasliterally just us, our visa
cards, and then our friends likebeg, borrowing and stealing
whatever we could Like,literally like hey, could you
come run sound for us for a day,could you compose this piece of

(25:09):
music for us, or whatever.
Like just begging our friendsRight.
And we got nominated for anEmmy.
That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (25:15):
That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
We were like can you imagine how short our acceptance
speech would be?
I'd like to thank me I'd like tothank, like the five people who
worked on this and no one elseright, All of us oh that's
awesome I mean it's a short listbut it was really really cool
to cool, because I was workingon Ghost Adventures at the time,

(25:36):
which is great and I'm proud tobe part of that.
But I'm a cog in the wheelthere.
That's not my baby, right, I'mjust an employee.
But this was just like, hey, wedon't answer to anybody, it's
whatever we think is best we do,and it was just cool to tell
those stories and the podcastrolled out of that.
Because it takes so long andit's so expensive to produce
television, oh sure you needinsurance.

(25:57):
Just to be standing on alocation, yeah, it was like 300
bucks for insurance and I'm likeso what does this cover?
Like, if we break a camera, ohno, that doesn't cover that.
Well, if we break the location,no, no, it doesn't cover that.

Speaker 3 (26:11):
I'm like what does it cover?
What am I?

Speaker 1 (26:12):
insuring right?
I still don't know.
I don't know.
I couldn't tell you and I didit like seven times.
I paid for that policy, gosh,and I still have, but we had to
have proof of insurance.

Speaker 2 (26:24):
I'm like hey, great, that covers nothing yeah,
congratulations.

Speaker 3 (26:28):
I have no idea what this does yeah, no idea.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
Except it cost us like hundreds of dollars.
Then I I have nothing to showfor that.
But the podcast was greatbecause you know we had theater
of the mind and we could go evenmore.
You know we could cover morestories, and then from there it
just really sort of grew.
And what's been great is thatthe stories are crowdsourced now
, so we have such a greataudience.

(26:51):
I get emails almost dailythat's just like hey, have you
heard about this weird well inMaine where, like, the kid went
down and came back and neverspoke again.
And you know, and I'm just likeno, what is that, you know?
and then there's your next story.
And it's been so much fun to dowhat I do, but do it in your
home.
So that's really what it camedown to.

(27:12):
And then I do a lot of speakingengagements and it's just kind
of easier to get around nearwhere you live.
Sure Of course.
That's part of it, because whenyou're flying somewhere, you
lose a day Right, a day oftravel there, a day of travel
back, and I love this stuff.
The only thing I love more thanthe subject is sharing it, like

(27:33):
when you get to share it infront of an audience, when you
get to talk to people abouttheir experiences and you
realize there's these throughlines, right, that just kind of
go through every person, everycommunity, every place and every
weird subject, and it's such aunique way to kind of look at
this human experience 100% andso, yeah, so convenience is my

(27:53):
main reason.
I'm biased.
I love where I live, I love totravel.
I will go absolutely anywhereand adore that, but you know,
this is home.

Speaker 3 (28:04):
Yeah, and you're right.
I think we are within a stone'sthrow of probably about gosh 10
places that.
I know people are like gosh,you really need to go out there
and look at that thing.
And I'm like, well, we haven't,we've gone, we've gone other
places We've, we've gone to,like Jerome Arizona, but you
know not here.
So, um, but yeah, you're right,it's terrible.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
I know you should be ashamed.
I am.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
I am, and there's a 12 step program out there for me
, I'm sure.

Speaker 3 (28:35):
But uh, yeah, but like do that?

Speaker 1 (28:35):
thing you do close to home.
How cool is that?
Yeah, because not only that,here's the here's the really
cool thing when you're reallylocal, like there's a trust with
local people.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
Agreed, yes, like like when you go into Boston, if
I start, you know if I have abeer and start dropping my eyes
a little bit, you know like sure, oh, you're one of us, come on
in, I'll get you into.
I'll get you into the catacombsthat we don't let anybody into
Nice yeah, you're right andyou're like okay now we're
talking.
Did I see you at that bar inSouthie?

Speaker 3 (29:00):
Yeah, let's go Right.
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
And you're locals, you can talk the language.
You might know some of theEnglish language I'm not
supposed to do this, but.
And I'm like stuff's going toget good now.
Access.

Speaker 3 (29:19):
Come back after a while.
We'll square things away, yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
We can go in at midnight on the full moon and
turn off the security cameras.
I'm like something's eithergoing to be really good or
really bad.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
Really bad or both or both, yeah, I mean mean they're
both.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, I mean they're.
Either way, get your emf meterout.
You know what I mean.
Just don't record anything,something's gonna happen for
sure, no, you're right, and it'samazing.

Speaker 3 (29:46):
And new england is just one of those places where,
uh, you know, I tell people allthe time that you know our
country's still really, reallyyoung in the overall global
experience, but you know, it allkind of started there.
So it's, it's the moregraduated look at that, there's
my 10.
Anyway, I won't get into it butit's the much more you know

(30:07):
people have been there longer,so it's going to have more
history than, say, you know,well, I'm from Tucson, arizona,
so you're going to have moreinformation and more history
there than you would in Tucson.
So it's just it's amazing.
So I can only imagine, you know, kind of the whole gamut of
different things you can coverand the fact that you have
listeners and people who feellike they can be a part of it is

(30:29):
just that's awesome, cause youknow you get, they get that kind
of like that ownership feeling,like they feel that's also
their, their, uh, their show.
So they, it's a different thingfor them yeah, no, that's the.

Speaker 1 (30:41):
I mean the whole idea always, you know, with a.
What I love about podcasting isthat it's so intimate.
You know what I mean?
It's, um, I have a co-host, ray.
Uh, we've known each other foryears.
He's a radio guy, so he, he hadme on his show and then that
evolved.
Our friendship evolved fromthere and we always talk about,
like, when we record our podcast, it's always just Ray and me

(31:02):
and one other person.
We always think about one, justone, right?
We don't think about anythingbeyond that.
We're just like it's two peoplehaving a conversation and
you're hanging out and we wantyou there with us.
We want to make sure that yousee what we see and feel what we
feel.
And, uh, when we travel throughtime which is very painful, by
the way, you go back twocenturies every week and like,

(31:25):
see how you feel after it'sexhausting.
My knees are already tired yeah,so it, so it's, uh, but we want
you there with us in the tavernhaving a beer or whatever, and
overhearing this conversationand seeing how this thing
happened and why the legendexists.
And to me, I took this mysterywriting class in college.
It was so fun.
I remember the teacher sayinghe's like look, this genre is

(31:48):
super easy, you just write itbackwards.
That was like day one, right, Ijust basically gave you a
semester of college, right there.
He's like it's all you do.
You have a crime, fine, andthen you go backwards and now
you have a motive.
And then you got to gobackwards and establish other
suspects, and then you just gobackwards and just write it,

(32:08):
that's it.
And I was like, oh, that's sortof easy.
And then I thought aboutparanormal investigation.
We do the same thing.
Yeah, sure do.
We start with this building'shaunted.
Why?
Well, because somethinghappened here.

Speaker 2 (32:21):
What.

Speaker 1 (32:21):
Well, that's now, we got to go backwards.
And so we start at the end.
It's haunted.
And then we got to go backwards.
We got to go back and say, well, who lived here?
Who died here, did anythingtragic happen, what happened,
who's seen things?
Then you go back and back andback as far as you possibly can
and then you tell it again tothe front I didn't invent that.
Scooby-doo does that.

(32:42):
Right, it's a tried and trueformula.
But I was like that's whatparanormal investigation is,
absolutely.

Speaker 3 (32:49):
And.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
I think that's why it speaks to us, you know.

Speaker 3 (32:51):
For sure, yeah, we Tar.
That's why it speaks to us, youknow for sure, yeah, we
tarantino stuff all the time.
I mean, that's just kind of howit goes.
You know it's, you're right,you got to build that history
after the.
You know, okay, it's haunted,like you said, and okay, well,
why?
And it's that quest, that'sjust that.
I think that's the fun part isthe quest absolutely everybody,
always talks about.
You know what, if you prove thatthere was, you know, a ghost?

(33:13):
Well, I don't need to prove it,I already know it's there, I
can feel it, I accept that.
But even if you told me thatthe journey to that point, I
think, is the best part of it, Imean, that's the story.
Like you said, learning thehistory, you know, you look at,
for example, we were at MissouriParacon where we met and
sitting in the audience, you cansee, when you look around,

(33:34):
there is just you talk aboutdifferent walks of life.
You've got people from all overthe place, from you know, some
that don't even speak thelanguage, some that you know,
whatever religious beliefs,whatever have.
You Talk about a globalcommunity, you know, and it's
just that fun, that journey thatthey get to go through.
So it's just awesome and I'm sohappy to hear that.
That fun, that journey thatthey get to go through.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
So that's it's just awesome and I I'm so happy to
hear that that's kind of how itwas shaping the show, that
that's awesome so what I loveabout missouri paracon was great
and, as you know, a lot of themare like that, where you have
people from all walks of life.
I know this is going to soundso preachy and soap boxy, but I
don't care.
Sure, I think a ghost storycould save us all, I agree?

(34:15):
Yeah, truly, I think that youknow, if we started talking
about religion, we're going tofight, that's how it works.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
100%.
That's how religion works.
We're going to fight.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
Even if you're the same religion, you're not quite
the right brand.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
Right.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
You could go to the same church and still fight.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:32):
Yeah, so that gets us all in a huff and it divides us
.
But, boy, if you talk aboutghost stories even skeptics who
say there's no such thing asghosts you go.
Okay, no problem, Sit down andhear a story then.

Speaker 2 (34:46):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (34:46):
Well, I like a good ghost story.
Fine, then sit down and hear agood ghost story.
The ghosts exist because we,the living, have unfinished
business, period.
I don't think the dead have anyunfinished business.
It's done.
They're not paying taxesanymore, right?
Yeah, business is concluded.

Speaker 2 (35:05):
Right but we.

Speaker 1 (35:07):
We have unfinished business, an unsolved murder,
unfinished right.
Someone got away with somethingyears ago.
Ah, we don't like that at all,I don't care how long ago it was
a horrible atrocity took place,uh, a civil war battle, uh any
war battle, right that that leftthousands dead who just thought
they were doing the right thing.

(35:28):
That haunts us.
You know, um, where someone gotlost and died.
That haunts us yeah you know,and I think the most simple
explanation that I've, that Ican offer, which I think we've
all experienced you're drivinghome late at night on the
highway, you're getting drowsyand you pass a cross on the side
of the road, mm-hmm, wheresomeone put up a little memorial

(35:50):
to someone who died doingexactly what you're doing right
this very minute.
And, boy, does that wake you up.
Yes, it does just just a teenytiny bit.
Right you go.
Oh right you know, slap the face, turn up the radio, put the
window down a little bit, wakeup wake up this you don't always
get to the destination alive,and and so I think that is the

(36:12):
simplest definition of a ghostit's the past coming to the
present, because we are stilltrying to reconcile something
that happened, and if we can behaunted by history, if we allow
the ghosts through, there'schances that we won't repeat the
same damn mistakes over andover.
It's a small chance, because ifyou study history.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
You know we do make the same mistakes over and, over
and over again, but there's asmall chance, because if you
study, history.
You know we do make the samemistakes over and over and over
again.

Speaker 1 (36:37):
But there's a chance.
There's a better chance if weat least understand it.
And if a ghost haunts someplace and makes enough of us ask
why and we find out the answer,maybe we can just grow as a
people.
Yeah.
Agreed and that's why I trulybelieve a ghost story could save
us all, if we let them haunt us.

Speaker 3 (36:57):
Yeah, I mean, that's 100% accurate.
I feel the same way.
You know, it's one of thosethings where it doesn't matter
who you are, everybody getstouched by the paranormal.
Ooh, that's a tagline somewhere.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (37:15):
Real quick, though I'd be remiss if we didn't bring
up ghost adventures.

Speaker 1 (37:17):
You know it's I'd obviously been 25 years now,
right, 17 years, 17, 17 years,this very month maybe this very
day wow, really, when I got thecall yeah, wow, I don't know why
I got 25 anyway, um

Speaker 2 (37:28):
probably feels like it.

Speaker 3 (37:30):
Well, no, it's just oh, that's what I'm thinking 25
seasons, that's where I'm at inthe head.

Speaker 1 (37:33):
Yeah, but it doesn't always line up with years.
Right, yeah, that's right.
Okay, I feel better now.

Speaker 3 (37:39):
What started, and I know you weren't there for the
first part, the documentarywhere they kind of what was it?
The Nevada?

Speaker 1 (37:47):
The Goldfields and all that.
Yeah, the Goldfields.

Speaker 3 (37:49):
Yeah, but since then I think you've been along for
the ride for the whole thing.
Has that been something?
That's been just one of thoselabors of love, that just kind
of you get to kind of be astoryteller and you get to watch
it sort of play out, you know,sort of?

Speaker 1 (38:04):
So when it started, like you said, they did the
documentary and then thedocumentary served as a pilot,
the Travel Channel bought it andthey were going to do eight
episodes and Zach called me andsaid, hey, hey, we know, you
know haunted places all over,we're looking for someone to
help us with research, withwriting and finding witnesses
that we can interview on camera.
And I was like cool, I've donethis for newspapers, magazines,
the web.
I've just never done it for TV,like that's neat, it's just a

(38:26):
different medium.
And so, uh, it was.
It was neat to be there to likeform a show.
It's very difficult to form ashow because you need to sort of
develop a formula that becomesfamiliar to the audience, that
they know what to expect, whento expect it.
And so it was really cool, itwas really neat, especially
those early years.
And then it was a hit and theysaid we got to do more, get back

(38:47):
to work.
And we did and we pretty muchhaven't stopped since.
So it was cool.
But that is very much a team,you know, and I'm a piece of it
and I give what I can give, butit's not my baby, you know what.

Speaker 2 (39:03):
I mean Right Sure.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
That's my day job.
Which, how cool is that Likethat's?

Speaker 2 (39:07):
my day job.
The rest of us don't get that,and the books and other stuff is
my more passion project.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
Yeah, stuff as my, you know my more passion project
, so, but it's still really cool.
I love when we get a locationand they're like all right, jeff
, it's all yours.
And then I dig in and I findsome nuggets and stuff that you
know people may not haveuncovered before, or I piece
together the right people andthen you know what happens when
they investigate is whateverhappens, it's Zach's show, no
question.
I just try to give them piecesto work with.

(39:32):
That's so cool.

Speaker 3 (39:33):
Man, that's a great day-to-day job I get to be a
network engineer.

Speaker 1 (39:41):
Hey, you need that stuff running before they take
it all down, I know, Gosh, theydid that.

Speaker 3 (39:46):
I'd never sleep again .
So I have to admit, what you'vegot going on right now is
something that um and I'm goingto be a little less cryptic here
in a second um, this guy righthere, shadow zine oh, look at
that yeah yeah, and, and I havethe, the pleasure we had the
pleasure of having, uh, youautograph it, so that's yeah,

(40:06):
look at that yeah, look at that.
Uh, this is awesome.
By the way, yeah, it is so cool,I love it, thank you I remember
when I was a kid and and I knowyou'll understand this you know
you would go to like, whetherit was a convenience store or
whatever, there was always amagazine.
You know whether, whatever youwere into, there was literally a
magazine for every flavor ofthe person out there and you

(40:28):
would see things like, of courseyou know, the teen beats and
the Fangorias and stuff.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
Teen bop.

Speaker 3 (40:33):
Yeah, the teen bops and stuff.

Speaker 1 (40:36):
Logan, which was your favorite, corey, Be honest.

Speaker 3 (40:39):
I think I'm a Haim guy honestly.

Speaker 1 (40:41):
Haim, okay, yeah, rip Haim.

Speaker 3 (40:43):
Rip, yeah, I know, but yeah, it's just being able
to touch something, being ableto pick a book up.
You know, right now it's agreat time, don't get me wrong.
I love the technology.
I love being able, like yousaid, to do the things that we
do.
It affords us the ability to dosome things.

(41:03):
That was much, much harder, youknow, going back, but it's also
kept us from some things that Ithink is sorely missing,
especially when it comes toparanormal.
I remember just getting like areader's digest or like even
like a, a national geographic.
Remember you'd see like thepicture and there's like a skull
there and you're like I gottafigure out what the heck this is

(41:23):
about.
And you're reading it.
And there was, there was thatconnection between you and the
print.
That's really making me soundold, I know it no, no, no,
listen, go on, don't stop.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
But yeah, it's, let's push this through that.

Speaker 3 (41:36):
That's the whole thing that I think is so great
about shadow zine is that youtake uh and this is the first
volume you take a, like you didthe bridgewater triangle in this
first one, and there's so muchhistory there I mean I'm sure
you had to take stories and notinclude it, because it just oh
yeah, you know you could go fordays, but you know you take this
one topic and you give littlenuggets of of stories that

(41:59):
people can digest.
You don't have to read theentire thing at one time, you
know you can just kind of pickit apart, but it's just, it's
filled with some really coolstuff.
There's some humor in there.
It's that connection to whatyou wanted us to know and it's
it's.
It's it really is.
It's just one of those thingsthat it's a forgotten not a

(42:20):
forgotten art, but it's just.
It's something that I think isis sorely missing.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
So when I started in all this back in the nineties, I
worked on zines, like desktoppublishing was was still coming
up Photoshop, you know,pagemaker and Quartz I don't
even know if they make thoseanymore, but like so, I was
working on zines, I was workingon newspapers.
And desktop publishing camearound in the 80s and 90s,
during a time when media wasconsolidating.

(42:46):
Right Like radio stations werebeing owned by just a few
companies, newspaper companieswere being owned by just a few
companies and they were reallystarting to control the
narrative.
The difference with print wasthat newspaper companies still
had local reporters coveringyour local news, so there was
hope.
But then the late 90s camearound and the internet came on.

(43:06):
And we were like.
Zine publishers like me werelike this is great, print is
expensive.
You got to pay for those youknow, and so the web.
I was like 80 bucks a year andI can do anything.
Right, this is amazing.
And so the web took off, and itwas the wild west right.
I started a website calledghostvillagecom.
We eventually had messageboards with 50,000 members.

(43:28):
We had so much content.
It was absolutely massive.
But then, around 2010,something else happened.
Social media blew up.
Facebook and MySpace was firstright.
And then Twitter came along andall these other things, and now
my grave concern is thatnewspapers have all died.

(43:49):
There is nobody covering localnews in your town.
In our country, corruption hasalways been from the top down.
Absolutely the people way highup are corrupt, but the local
cop's not going to shake youdown for 20 bucks.
But because you had the fourthestate.
The fourth estate was the media.
They did protect you.
You can say whatever you wantabout them, but they did protect

(44:09):
you from certain corruption,especially locally.
Now, if you're like planningand zoning person is just doing
corrupt things to just benefittheir personal business and not
really caring about the town,how do you hear about it, Unless
you go to town meetings?
Raise your hand.
If you go to town meetings.

Speaker 2 (44:24):
Yeah, nobody does Not a hand up in the room, you know
.

Speaker 1 (44:27):
And so suddenly we have this.
We now live at a time where, ifyou think about it, I would
argue 90 to 95% of people spendtheir time on the internet on
just six or so websites.
Right, yeah, facebook,instagram, twitter, truth,
social, if you want, tiktok,YouTube, reddit right, I mean,

(44:50):
jump in if I'm leaving anybodyout right, yeah.
I mean you've said more than Ilook at, that's not even seven
people that control all that andthey're dialing up and dialing
it down politically andcontent-wise.
Facebook used to work.
If I choose to follow youbecause I want to follow you and

(45:12):
you start putting up ad afterad for the stuff you're doing,
your punishment is I unfollowyou, right, because I'm like, oh
, he's just trying to sell mesomething at every turn, so I
unfollow and you go.
Well, gee, I better dosomething different or people
aren't going to follow me.
It just worked itself outnaturally.
Now Facebook is deciding eh,what you just posted looks like
an ad.
You gonna have to pay for that,and and so it's, which is fine.

(45:35):
They got to make money too.
I get it, but now I'm reallyscared that we are living in a
time where the narrative isdesperately trying to be
controlled by a tiny handful ofpeople.
Sure, uh you know, stuff getssuppressed on the web.
Google can decide what you findand don't find.
So I'm like I know this soundsa little conspiracy theorist,
but print is real.
You hold it in your handsExactly.

(45:55):
And so I'm like you know what?
No AI, no ads.
You pay for it.
You buy the content.
And I wrote the first one, sure, but Richard Estep wrote the
second one.
I'm going to have differentauthors writing each one.
They're going to get paid forit.
They're going to get a royaltyon it, which is how the
paranormal started, right?
We?
were producing zines and sowe're going back and TV networks

(46:19):
have canceled pretty much allthe paranormal shows I know,
because they don't know what todo.
They're not sure what they'redoing, and so I'm like you know
what, if we're going underground, then good, let's go back
underground.
I was happy there.
Yeah, I agree, I've got friendsthere, you know, landmarks I
recognize, and so the whole ideais Shadowzine is going to go

(46:40):
back underground with print,traditional print, through the
mail.
It can't be edited later, itcan't be, you know, suppressed
or whatever.
It's just, I answer to nobodybut the reader and that feels so
good right now in this worldwe're currently living in you
know where, you don't know whatto believe or who to believe

(47:02):
anymore, because the narrativechanges every day.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
We're not at war with .

Speaker 1 (47:06):
East Anglia.
We're at war with West Anglia.
I'm like I've read this booklong ago, 1984.
And suddenly I'm just like youknow what Print?
Print, I think, will save us.
Doesn't need a battery, doesn'tneed sunlight, you can take it
anywhere you go.
That's right, and it's tangibleand it's user-friendly like you
mentioned.
So anyway that's my soapbox,and I'm trying it, you know,

(47:31):
like let's see where this goes.
And so I'm going back to veryold school ideas, and, and so
I'm going back to very oldschool ideas and here we are.

Speaker 3 (47:37):
Well, and that's I think it's really needed,
because not only do you get theand, honestly, 10 bucks, I mean,
it's like it's really.
I mean, if you go to stinkingStarbucks and you order one
coffee, here's your coffee, Imean.

Speaker 2 (47:55):
It's gone, it's gone, and then it's gone.

Speaker 3 (47:57):
You don't have it right and it's just, it's
amazing to to kind of see itback.
And you're right, and it's thatsame cyclical, you know.
So let's, I agree, let's getthis back out.
And uh, we've got richards onthe way.

Speaker 1 (48:11):
So we're pretty excited about that, but, uh,
thank you, yeah, yeah, um, theresponse so far has been really
good you know like people Ithink people appreciate a couple
things that, like I rememberone woman said to me in missouri
.
She said you know, I know youguys write books and it's great
and I want to be supportive, butI don't have time for a book.
If I have time for this, thisis a little.

(48:32):
You know a zine, and I'm likeall right, cool, hey, whatever,
whatever you, whatever, whateverworks for you, and I think
that's great.
I mean, I get it.
I like reading short stuff toosometimes.

Speaker 3 (48:42):
Yeah, it's super fair too, because you never either
the folks that have the affinityto pick up a book and read it
and spend a lot of time with it,and that's one group of people
and that's great.
But there are definitely thosefolks that they just want a
piece, they just want a littlebit little nuggets.
You want an appetizer, youdon't want the whole meal
Exactly.

(49:02):
Totally fine and it's awesome,because I think the one thing
that we're missing and I've saidthis before and I'll do my
soapbox for like two seconds butyou know, in our time, when we
were growing up, information wasso hard to get.
You had to fight forinformation, whether it be a
book, whether it be whatevermedium you could find it.
Whoever had the information wonin the end.

(49:23):
That was the thing, andunfortunately, a lot of it had
to do with people of affluencehad all the information, yada,
yada, all that kind of stuff.
But we have information justforce fed down our throats
constantly and, like you said,the algorithm dictates what
we're going to eat and we'rejust going to consume it.
You know.

Speaker 1 (49:43):
It's awful, and not only that, like they know what
gets you right, so they knowwhat sport teams you watch and
what'll get you clicking.
They know what makes you madand you'll click on it.
They know what makes you happyand you'll click on it.
And they're feeding it to youto keep you there.
And the irony is and I get it Ineed social media to make my
living.
I need social media to get theword out, but at the same time

(50:04):
you ever go a day without it.
You ever notice that weirdfeeling at the end of the day.
It's called happiness, it'scalled calm.
And you're like, wow, I wasjust at the beach all day today,
or I was at the lake justhanging out, you know, and
you're suddenly like huh, Iforgot my phone.
And once the jitters stop,you're like wow.

Speaker 2 (50:26):
This is great.

Speaker 1 (50:27):
Sobriety ain't so bad I know it's so funny.

Speaker 3 (50:31):
When TikTok went offline, our daughter literally
had a complete meltdown.
Oh yeah, it was bad she wasjust can't, I don't know what
I'm doing and and I'm like, yeah, it's no big deal, we just put
it away I was actually reallythrilled that was kind of nice,
you know.
I mean, you're right, we allhave to do it.
It is something that you know.
We've got our own social media.

(50:53):
It's, you're right, it's howyou get the word out.
But sure, um, but no.
And I'm so glad you broughtthis medium back and I don't
want to say it was completelydead, but this form of it, you
know, it's like.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
Yeah, the magazine was gone.

Speaker 3 (51:05):
The magazine was gone and even when it was around,
before it completely had itsswan song, it had started to
kind of just become.
I remember I got an what was it?
I think it was like a guitarmagazine and literally two pages
was content.
The rest was like ads and justlike it was garbage by that
point.
So, um, awesome so thank you.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
Yeah, no, I'm, I'm trying something here and um,
and the good news is, like I'vebeen doing this so long, I'm
friends with all the authors outthere that are doing the same.
We're all.
We're all friends with eachother, Right?
So I'm just like, hey, you wantto try something weird?

Speaker 3 (51:40):
And they're like yes, let's try something weird yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
And here's a little inside information.
So I have a book coming out inSeptember called Wicked Strange.
It's a photo journey and aweird journey around New England
.
All kinds of stories that wecover in the podcast ghosts,
monsters, aliens, all the otherstuff.
It's available for pre-sale now.
When you sign these literarycontracts, there's a clause in

(52:03):
there that says this will beyour next book.
Well, I signed that contractover a year ago, you know, and
so that's a year and a halfwhere that has to be my next
book.
Anyway, wow, this is a zine,yeah anyway, wow, this is a zine
.
Yeah, yeah, exactly stick it tothe man captain, loophole

(52:26):
strikes again.

Speaker 3 (52:26):
That's good stuff.
Well, jeff, I mean this isgreat and and I really want to
urge our listeners and anybodyout there, please- please,
please pick this up and supportit.
It's just.
This is where we need to go.
We need to get back to thissort of thing.
We need to get back tostorytelling.
We need to get back to actuallyknowing what the heck a story

(52:46):
is.
You know, it's just, it'sfantastic.
And you know I really look.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
I think we will, and I think what's happening right
now is pushing everyone away,right, because people are
realizing how toxic it all is,oh yeah, and they're realizing
like, what can I do?
That's real.
You know what's real.
Go out to your local haunts andcheck them out and your local
stories.
Go into your own woods and lookfor Bigfoot or whatever it is
that excites you.
But do it.

(53:12):
Don't like watch it in30-second bursts on your phone.
Right, yeah, don't like watch itin 30 second bursts on your
phone Right Like go be active,go jump into this life
experience because you'll behappier.
And just ask yourself am Ihappier now, or was I happier
when I was on my couch lookingat TikToks?
Yeah, you know, and I thinkyou'll find the answer is
overwhelmingly like wow, when Iget away from that and do things

(53:34):
, I'm happier.
And yeah, share the story.
Storytelling is how we connect.
We're so disconnected right now, which is the political climate
we're in.
Do you ever post on socialmedia like eating an orange?
Well, of course you are.
That's what you would do, youjerk?
That's just crazy.

Speaker 2 (53:50):
Social media.

Speaker 1 (53:51):
yeah, yeah, you're just like oh, I didn't think
that was political.

Speaker 2 (53:56):
I was just eating an orange.
An orange, yeah, you know, likechicken sandwich.

Speaker 1 (53:59):
Oh, figures, that's so true.

Speaker 2 (54:03):
That's so sadly true, hide behind the keyboard and
yeah, I don't know how you couldpoliticize that.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
but here we are.
You know, it's just crazy.
So, yeah, we're living in thistime where it's just so, so
toxic, yeah, and it's toxicbecause we're not talking to
each other, we're just onlineexactly darts.

Speaker 3 (54:21):
Yeah to anybody who'll listen or take a dart
yeah, yeah, or you're in theecho chamber.

Speaker 1 (54:25):
Yeah, you're right, we're all just yelling the same
thing I know boy, are we gonnalearn and grow?
I know here there's innovationfor you well and and you know
what too, like so in theparanormal we I've saw over time
right, I've been doing this along time.
I remember when orbs were bigand eventually we were like all
right, let's learn how cameraswork and learn the lens, flare
and things that can cause orbs,and I'm not saying it's never

(54:49):
paranormal, but overwhelmingpercentage of the time it's
probably not right.

Speaker 2 (54:53):
Right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:02):
Let's just understand the equipment and so or orbs
kind of went away the talk aboutit went away and then uh,
meanwhile everybody was justsort of parroting the same thing
that they heard on tv shows andI was like those tv shows are
ripping off harry price, whowrote confessions of a ghost
hunter in the 1920s and wereally haven't evolved much in a
hundred years, you know, likeit's still his ideas and even
then, like he got his ideas from, like, psychic mediums and
everything else, like and I'mnot saying it's wrong, maybe

(55:24):
it's correct, but maybe it iswrong and we shouldn't just keep
repeating the same thing overand over again.
Let's try different stuff.
You know, let's bring what we doto the table, whatever that is.
You know I like research andhistory.
You know other people like thetech fine, do what you do, you
know.
But but let's try to chase downsome different ideas.

Speaker 3 (55:43):
And you need a happy medium of both.
I mean, there has to be, youknow, give and take for both for
sure.
And you know the other thingthat we always we fail to
realize that we always thinkthat we're so dynamic on this
side of the lens, what, what?
Why do we think that theparanormal side, the, the
ethereal plane, is not also verydynamic?
You know, it's just.

(56:04):
It always baffles me thatpeople forget that.
That, you know, just because itwas one thing before does not
necessarily mean it's going tobe the same thing the next time.

Speaker 1 (56:13):
Yeah, for sure, and it's a human thing, right.
So I mean, I always try toimagine it's called empathy,
right.
But imagine, like, well, howwould I be?
How would I be if I was sort ofin a space where I couldn't
necessarily be seen or heard allthe time and people are poking
around in the dark?
What would I do?
What would I say?
Sure, probably a lot of getouts.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
Yeah, right, you know what are you doing.
I would be that one that wouldpick on him.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
Oh yeah, just because it would be fun, logan Nicole
get out.

Speaker 3 (56:44):
Get out, do you remember Get off my lawn.
Oh I'd definitely be that, yeah, you definitely would Do you
remember the movie Twilight Zone, of course, yeah, do you
remember when he's like I thinkit was Dan Aykroyd's character
where he's like hey, want to seesomething scary and the guy
turns and he's like thishorrible monster and scares?
That would be me, 100%, thatwould be me.

Speaker 1 (57:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Of course They'd probably thinkI was a demon Beetlejuice right
.

Speaker 2 (57:08):
Oh yeah, Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (57:10):
We would just reenact it all over and over.
Yeah, no, it's, but I stilllove the subject because you're
asking really big questions.
You know what I mean.
You're asking, like whathappens after we die and what
legacy will I leave, and whatpart of history are we still
grappling with, and what does itmean and how do I want to live
my life?
For sure, you know how do Iwant to be remembered, like all

(57:31):
these really big things that wecan talk about freely under the
guise of paranormal and ghosts.
That we can talk about freelyunder the guise of paranormal
and ghosts, whereas if you do itunder the guise of a religion,
well, next thing you know, we'reall drinking Kool-Aid and dying
in a field in South America andmaking documentaries about us.

Speaker 3 (57:47):
That crazy guy.

Speaker 1 (57:48):
Or we're getting on a spaceship and cutting off our
testicles.
Either way, I don't know whichone's worse.
Yet I'm sticking to ghosts.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (57:52):
I'm good with ghosts.
I don't know which one's worse,yet I'm sticking to Ghost.
You know what I mean.
Yeah, I'm good with Ghost.
I'm good with Ghost.
Yeah, let's do the Ghost thing.
Let's try that.
Yeah, I'm with you on that one.

Speaker 1 (58:01):
Yeah.
Oh man let's see where this onegoes.

Speaker 3 (58:04):
That's hilarious.
Yeah Well, Jeff, I know ouraudience is going get the shadow
zine and kind of get involvedwith what you got going on.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
Well, I'm always happy to correspond with other
weirdos.
Um, uh, the the shadow zine isshadow zinecom.
Uh, it's like magazine but justzine.
And then, um, and then mywebsite's my name, jeff
Belangercom, and Facebook andInstagram and YouTube.
Exploring Legends is myInstagram and Facebook and

(58:40):
Legend Tripping is my YouTube.
You can follow me, but I reallydon't know where I'm going, if
I'm honest.

Speaker 3 (58:48):
But we can get lost together and make a few laughs.
It's the journey.
That's what counts For sure.
Well, jeff, thank you so muchfor spending some time with us
tonight.
We had a blast.
Yeah, it was awesome and hopeto bring you back someday.
And yeah, we'll talk about somemore zine stuff and some retro
stuff.
Sounds good.
But thank you so much and we'lltalk to you soon.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
Take care.

Speaker 3 (59:12):
Perfect.
Thank you, sir.

Speaker 1 (59:13):
Appreciate it.
I'm closing no, I'm out.
Just let me unplug my internet.

Speaker 3 (59:20):
Yeah, then you get the email.
Hey, would you mind?

Speaker 1 (59:26):
jumping on for a second, but it saves it though,
so it doesn't I mean that's goodfor you.
It says it's 99%, it's stillgoing.

Speaker 3 (59:32):
It just takes a second or two.
Yeah, no worries, it's fine.
Yeah, actually it a second ortwo, yeah, no worries.
Um, yeah, actually it's reallygreat because it like right now
it's on recording on like 720p,but up there I get to pull it
down to 4k.
So cool.
There's some really cool upsidetoo.

Speaker 1 (59:45):
Yeah, yeah, it's awesome, hey when's it come out
um we?

Speaker 2 (59:48):
it'll be like two or three weeks.
Yeah, I can't remember.

Speaker 3 (59:52):
Yeah, cool exactly, but yeah yeah, we'll give you
the links and and I we'll makesure you get all the information
up ahead of time.

Speaker 1 (59:58):
So again, thank you so much, Jeff we appreciate it.
Yeah, you too.

Speaker 3 (01:00:02):
Yeah, you're all uploaded.
So again, thank you so much,and we look forward to talking
to you soon.

Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
Yeah, are you guys based in Arizona?

Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
No, we're actually in Missouri, oh you're in Missouri
?
Okay, yeah but I'm from Arizonaand I was raised somewhat in
California too, so I'm a WestCoast, and when I was in the
army I met I met this one hereand I just realized my life
wasn't going to be okay withouther.
So we, we stayed here.

Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
Nicole, were you army too?
No, no, oh, you're just nearby.

Speaker 3 (01:00:27):
I was just a local girl, yeah, yeah, and my friend
was actually trying to hook upwith her and I'm like I'm sorry
I'm going to say it, but I'mlike, hey, she looks really
high-maintenance man.

Speaker 2 (01:00:37):
Which I couldn't be further from high-maintenance.
You couldn't be further fromthat, which is funny.

Speaker 3 (01:00:40):
So he's like yeah you're right, we'll just skip
over it.
In the meantime, I'm likewriting down her MySpace name
and stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
Yeah, you said MySpace.
Yeah, it was MySpace.
Hey, what Riz you have.

Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
That was gosh.
That's almost 20 years ago.
Yeah, Girl, let me get your ats.
Yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
Wow.
I've never said that to anyonebut I want to Let me get your
ats.
You should bring it back.

Speaker 3 (01:01:07):
Yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
Let me get those ats, oh man.

Speaker 3 (01:01:12):
Well, jeff, thanks again.
We appreciate it, man, andwe'll let you know when it's
coming out.
It's great.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
Sounds good and we love the book, we really do.
Yeah, yeah, it's veryrefreshing yeah it is.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
Yeah, thanks.
Well, we'll make more.
All right, sounds good, we'llread them Take care guys, All
right.

Speaker 3 (01:01:30):
Thanks, Jeff.
Take care it was yeah, first ofall if he hadn't gotten by now.
He's just so much fun to talkto.
He is, you know he's definitelyone of those guys where it
doesn't matter how you feel, man, when you're in his orbit it's
like, yeah, all right, he justhe pumps you up.

Speaker 2 (01:01:50):
Exuberant energy.
He's exuberant.
I like that.

Speaker 3 (01:01:52):
Exuberant, yeah, exuberant energy exuberant, yeah
, exuberant, nice, yeah, guys,we really like this.
It's um, you know, it's exactlywhat we talked about.
It's just little nuggets,little, and it's all about.
This particular one is aboutthe bridgewater, uh, triangle,
um, and I know there's onecoming from, uh, richard estep
and uh is the second month.

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
Yeah, it's the second month coming up.

Speaker 3 (01:02:13):
Yeah which we got on the way, but it's a lot of fun.

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
And I think it would be really good for the young
like maybe not super little kids, but like young teenagers,
because a lot of them arestarting to get into the
paranormal.
They're wanting to go oninvestigations and learn a lot,
so this would be perfect,because their attention spans
are not great.

Speaker 3 (01:02:37):
They're used to this thing here.
That's why the TikTok is sopopular.

Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
So this would be great because they could pick it
up, read one story, set it downcome back to it later and it's
perfect for that.

Speaker 3 (01:02:49):
It absolutely is, and I know that I would imagine is
one of the things Jeff wasreally trying to hammer in,
because it's just those nicelittle stories and it's just
great and it's it's so awesometo get back to storytelling and
we're so happy that Jeff andRichard and and all the people
that he's going to have involvedin it, it's just, it's, it's
awesome, it's what we need.

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
Yeah, and I love I mean, even though this is a
magazine so happy to see thatthey're putting it back in print
, because I remember years agowhen the kindle like in the the.

Speaker 3 (01:03:21):
What was the?

Speaker 2 (01:03:22):
oh the nook, yeah the nook came out and he was trying
to convince me get rid of yourbooks, just get this.
It's all electronic and I likefought him hard.
I'm like I don't want that.
I like the feel, I like thelook like holding a book in my
hands, the smell of the book,and even I got you know.
I started to like that too, Irealized that it was we were
losing it, you know right, right, and so I'm very happy to see

(01:03:43):
this, and I came home frommissouri paracon with the whole
library.
I swear we bought many, manybooks yes, we did from almost
every single person that hadthem available for sale so but I
got to add it to paranormallibrary and this was one of them
, that's awesome, and we'vealready ordered the second
second edition.
So, yeah, go out and get it.

Speaker 3 (01:04:02):
It's really, really cool it's not expensive, it's
worth every dime.
It's it like you couldliterally take this anywhere.
It's not, you know, it's notobstructive, it's not getting in
the way anything.

Speaker 2 (01:04:14):
It's perfect great for an airplane, oh yeah, yeah,
you fly a lot okay, well, I knowwhat I'm taking to ireland.

Speaker 3 (01:04:23):
Guys, seriously, um, jump on his website, pick it up.
You're not going to be uh letdown.
It's a great time, um, but uh,yeah, thanks a lot, guys.
Let us know what you thinkjeff's great um, reach out to
reach out to him and uh, yeah,well, other than that, guys,
we'll we'll see you next week.
See you next week, thank you.