July 15, 2024 • 44 mins
In this episode, Sheerin Gryloo's journey unfolds as a testament to resilience and advocacy. A first-generation Iranian American, Sheerin shares her family's immigration experience and the challenges they overcame in the United States. Her narrative is deeply rooted in cultural pride, shaped by celebrations like the Persian New Year, while also acknowledging the sacrifices her parents made following the Iranian Revolution.
Central to Sheerin's story is her advocacy for women's rights and systemic change. She bravely discusses her personal experiences with sexual violence and the Title IX process, shedding light on the complexities survivors face in seeking justice and healing. Sheerin's insights underscore the urgent need for better education on sexual violence and comprehensive support systems for survivors.
The episode highlights Sheerin's initiatives, including the founding of the Women's Advocacy Initiative, aimed at empowering survivors and driving systemic reform, and her co-founding of Untitled Nine focused on improving metrics and prevention strategies for sexual violence in educational settings. Sheerin emphasizes the critical importance of supporting organizations like Genesis, which provide vital services for domestic violence survivors.
Sheerin’s journey offers a poignant exploration of cultural identity and the imperative for societal change. Her story not only informs but also inspires listeners to take action, supporting initiatives that champion survivors' rights and contribute to a more just and equitable world.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Shereen Grylow, survivor and founder of the
Women's Advocacy Initiative,joins the show to share her
experience of sexual violenceand how that led to helping
other survivors.
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis the podcast.
A native of Washington DC,Shereen Grilo graduated from the
(00:42):
College of William Mary with adouble major in economics and
psychology and a minor in arthistory.
Shireen is the founder andchairman of the Women's Advocacy
Initiative, a nonprofitorganization dedicated to
eliminating the barriers thatprevent victims of sexual
violence from reporting theirassailants.
She has spoken to women andgirls at numerous institutions
(01:05):
on the immense value ofself-advocacy and works with
colleges and universities toactively reform their Title IX
processes and sexual assaultprevention initiatives.
For several years, she hasvolunteered with survivors of
domestic abuse and sexualassault, hosting weekly virtual
support groups.
This episode includes details ofsexual violence and addiction
(01:26):
that some may find troubling ortriggering.
Shireen, welcome to the podcast, Thank you so much for having
me.
And you grew up in WashingtonDC, right, that's correct, and
your parents immigrated fromIran.
How long has your family beenin the United States?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
My mother, came pre-revolution, so it's been
quite a while.
My father came about two yearsafter the revolution and they've
been here I want to say it'sbeen a bit over 40 years now.
So I was born in DC and they'velived here for their whole
lives.
I've lived, I've moved aroundquite a bit, some because of my
(02:05):
schooling, some for work, butyeah, dc has always been my home
base, and the same with myparents as well.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
I love DC and I guess that makes you a first
generation American.
Right it does, yes.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Or a third culture kid as well.
I feel like, as everyone issaying, oh yeah, that's really
interesting.
Yeah, no, it's that, especially,you know, post 9-11, being
Middle Eastern.
And it's interesting toobecause my family is not Muslim.
I come from a very long line ofatheists, which is a very
unusual thing to say about, youknow, iranians.
I may be the first to say that,but I certainly had my moments
(02:39):
when I was much younger, youknow, wishing I was white, was I
were European.
Um, just to avoid you know somany reactions, and I was very
lucky I did not have to reallyface, um, I never experienced
any kind of, you know, hatecrime, anything like that.
But so many people would saythey did not, they did not know
(03:00):
what Iran was.
I was like, well, it's reallynot my job to show you a globe
or a map, and it just feltsimpler, you know, to say like,
oh, I'm Greek, so you know.
Or Italian, one of those likeit's white, it's European, but
you look a little darker,perhaps there's some North
African in there.
So when I was a kid, I wouldreally just kind of avoid saying
(03:23):
that.
And then I went to schooloverseas for a bit and, you know
, things changed quite a lot.
I met a lot of internationalstudents and I very much grew,
you know proud of.
You know, just thinking of whatmy parents went through, you
(03:45):
know, the immense amount of, Iguess I think of my life, I
guess in comparison to them, andit's so think of like Paris
Hilton versus like some, youknow, somebody who's working 20
hours a day, it's just thecomparison is crazy and I think
about how lucky and howprivileged I am.
But you know, they worked soincredibly hard and it's a very
(04:07):
interesting thing in Iran tomoney in and of itself.
After the revolution, after theAyatollah was, you know, put in
place, the Shah was kicked out,assets were frozen, they were
seized.
So my mother, she went.
You know, her family had quitea bit of money.
They went from that to nothingovernight.
And so at age 14, she wasliving in Boston.
(04:30):
My bipolar grandfather had justsent all his kids over to
Boston for their education andshe was working like three jobs.
Wow, and no, it was absolutelycrazy to think.
You know, all that time, andyou know I think about what I
was doing at 14.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, which was really nothing like that right.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
No, absolutely Just a life that I was very privileged
to not have to live.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
When did you get to the point where you felt like
you could say to people I'mIranian and not you know some
other ethnicity that maybe thatwould be more palpable for them.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Sure, no, I think when I was about 13, I want to
say, is when that happened, andthat was really when I was
meeting a lot more internationalstudents, people from you know
absolutely all over the world,just because of my schooling and
I think I also, I stoppedcaring.
I realized that nobody elsecared and it was in my head
really, you know, speaking withmy friends, speaking with the
(05:29):
people who were in my socialcircles Sure, there may be some
random person out there who'sgoing to give me, you know, do
something about it, like goingto call me some kind of slut or
whatever, but obviously not thepeople that I interact with.
And I think a lot of itactually, it has to do with
putting faith in the people thatyou keep in your social circles
, the people that you love, thepeople you care about.
(05:50):
And I do remember it reallykind of started with Nohru's
Persian New Year.
My parents would always let metake the day off school for that
, and just telling people aboutthat was kind of the first time
that I was speaking about, youknow, iranian culture, persian
culture, and that felt kind ofhuge.
That felt like a verymonumental shift and after that
(06:11):
it just really kept going, andit was like I kind of unblocked
something in my mind at thatpoint.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
That's great, and that was at a young age too.
I mean 13 is kind of reallyyoung, but then you went to
college here in the UnitedStates College of William and
Mary, and in the last year ofcollege so there's a lot between
here and there, right, we'retalking like 10 years between
what we just talked about andthen the last year of college
for you you had an experience ofsexual violence perpetrated by
(06:41):
a fellow student.
Can you share with us whathappened to you?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Of course.
So I mean I often start offwhen I'm sharing my story by
saying that the Title IX case Iwent through my final year of
undergrad.
That was not the first timethat I had been sexually
assaulted, but it was the firsttime that I reported it and that
is a distinction that to me isvery important to make, that I
(07:07):
had been on both sides of thatreporting and not reporting,
especially given what thenonprofit or what the Women's
Advocacy Initiative really aimsto do, which is support women
who would like to report theirperpetrators.
And you know I never want tosound like I'm on some kind of
high horse and you know likethis is what I do, this is what
everybody else has to do, so Ireally, really like them.
(07:29):
Besides the fact that I havebeen on both sides, when it
happened I had chalked it up asa bad experience, as I think so
many women do, so many of us do.
(07:50):
A year later, I was speakingwith a friend and found out that
she had also had a badexperience with the exact same
man.
I spoke with another person wegot four names just from
speaking to a couple of peopleand I had come forward and I
realized that nobody else hadpursued a case or filed any kind
(08:11):
of report without pursuing aTitle IX complaint, which was
always an option and I thought,well, okay, I guess it has to be
me, which, you know, I doremember thinking I'm I'm
probably the worst person to dothis but at the same time,
potentially the best, because Ihad always my entire life been
(08:31):
uh, my parents would wouldprobably call it a loud mouth or
a micromanager, but it's what Icall self-advocacy.
Um, I was always speaking upfor myself.
I would never sit down and takesomething if I didn't feel like
it was right myself, I wouldnever sit down and take
something if I didn't feel likeit was right, and that was
something that proved to be themost valuable component of this
case.
And I think, just anotherreason why I did not immediately
(08:55):
connect what happened to mewith sexual assault, with rape,
was because I think it's so muchof the misconceptions we have
around sexual violence that itis a one singular violent act as
opposed to a culmination, aseries of events that can lead
to a violent act.
(09:15):
Saying no over and over again,perhaps in a very playful way,
because you don't want to inciteany anger.
And then the notion of just ofgiving in, because what is the
alternative?
To say no, to walk away, therisk that is taken with that I
think we often talk about, youknow, saying no, as that is
(09:36):
really like consent 101, rightno means no.
Saying no it's, you know,portrayed as some kind of the
ultimate, you know act ofstanding up for yourself when
it's really a terrible risk thatwe can take as women.
And I had no idea what implicitcoercion was at the time.
I did not realize that, you know, I had been broken down, that
(09:57):
the threat of violence that hadexisted in that moment was what
broke me down and that thatcounted as sexual violence, that
that counted as rape, until Iwent to the Title IX office and
we were talking about there werefour separate complaints
against him, and it was when Iwas telling my story.
They said, oh no, that's rape,that's non-consensual sexual
(10:20):
intercourse.
That is another complaint, andI had no idea that it counted.
And this is something I sayquite often.
But I know a few women who willsay they have been raped.
But every single woman I knowhas had a bad experience.
As we say, and it is such aterrible euphemism.
(10:44):
I think it's masking violence,it's masking a crime and you
know it's difficult to tell.
Is it masking it for ourselves,for our own sake, so we don't
have to cope with?
You know what comes next, withall the possibilities that come
next?
Or is it because we are nottaught?
Because the education aroundthis is so?
I want to say honestly, it'sfacile.
Education around this is so, Iwant to say honestly, it's
(11:06):
facile, it's very limited.
When we talk about consent, itis incredibly narrow.
We don't talk about implicitcoercion, we don't talk about
power dynamics.
We don't talk about thesecrucial, crucial things that
come into play in most of thesesituations.
And when I came forward I thinkI say this quite often you know
(11:26):
I was again the worst possiblevictim and you know I had a
documented history of bothmental illness and, you know,
substance misuse with the school.
I had come forward a year later.
There was prior consent withthe assailant.
There was contact afterwardswith the assailant as well for a
(11:48):
couple months.
No physical evidence.
It was truly you know my wordagainst his, and these are all.
I really can't think of asingle other thing that would
have stacked up against me.
They really caught them all,like a Pokemon Just got to catch
them all.
But you know that it's really.
It really did not mean anythingto me and I I think this is
(12:09):
kind of a broader thing wherethis there's a misconception
that you know women will comeforward because they have
physical evidence.
My fitbit absolutely showedthat at this time, you know, my
heart rate was very high, orlike gps showed that I was at
this place.
Or you know this rape heartrate was very high, or like GPS
showed that I was at this place,or you know this rape kit.
We think about the number ofuntested rape kits and hundreds
(12:30):
of thousands of untested rapekits, and that's not why women
don't come forward.
We don't come forward becauseof shame.
We don't come forward becauseof victim blaming, the victim
blaming that exists so uniquelywithin the sphere of sexual
violence, this blame that we donot see with other forms of
violent crime.
And I was very lucky.
(12:52):
I was very lucky because I didnot feel shame.
I simply saw myself as a victimof a violent crime and you know
, there was no difference to me.
No-transcript, it is the sameas fists.
(13:32):
It is the ultimate form ofdegradation, humiliation, and
when there is an oppressor, itis something that will always be
used upon the oppressed.
Why is it a tool of war?
Why is it something we see inprisons?
Anything where there must be apower dynamic, we see this kind
of violence, and it doesn't haveto do with sex at all.
(13:53):
And I was lucky enough, I think,that I know self-advocacy.
I'd always been that way sinceI was a child.
I'd always self-advocated,advocated, and I know there are
so many people who you know notonly does it, whether they're
unable to or, you know, theydon't know how to, and it is
absolutely a place of privilegethat I was able to walk into the
Title IX office almost everysingle day, micromanage them,
(14:17):
ask them exactly where they were.
You know, with every singlepart of the process, the fact
that you know I was basicallyplaying Nancy Drew out here.
I was doing half theinvestigative work.
I found false witnesstestimonies, all these things
that weren't my job.
And they sit you down when youcome in originally and they tell
(14:38):
you.
All you need to do is tell thetruth and the rest is our job.
And I knew in that momentabsolutely not, because this was
the most important thing in mylife and there was no way I was
going to entrust this to anybodyelse.
And when I talk aboutself-advocacy, I think that is
really the core of it.
(14:59):
It's that baseline ofunderstanding that you deserve a
level of respect, dignity andcompassion that you will not be
getting from so many people,even if they mean incredibly
well.
It is, what you give yourselfis really not what you are going
(15:19):
to be getting to others.
Understanding that you deservethat and demanding that are the
absolute core of self-advocacyand that was what I was
demanding.
And when it came to the outcomeof the case, it was what was
considered favorable.
I was told that it was.
The sanctions given out were theharshest William and Mary had
(15:41):
given out in 10 years, and I wasabsolutely infuriated because
there was no way my case was theabsolute worst in 10 years and,
as I mentioned, there was thelack of so much evidence.
It was very much she said.
She said and I was told by myadvisor, by a couple of the
deans as well that it had to dowith how I presented my story,
(16:02):
with how I pushed, how Iadvocated for myself, how I was
able to answer those questions.
And you know the questionsmeant to shame us without shame.
And I think these are thethings that we often use to
discredit ourselves and, betteruse, to discredit other
survivors, things like being incontact with your assailant
(16:24):
after, which is one of the mostcommon things in the world.
And when I was asked, you knowwhy were you in contact with
someone you claimed you feared?
Why were you in contact withsomeone you claimed assaulted
you?
And the answer to me was verysimple Because of that fear,
because I wanted to maintainsome kind of cordial
relationship.
I didn't want to be hated.
And that's because I wanted tomaintain some kind of cordial
relationship.
(16:44):
I didn't want to be hated.
And that's the most integralthing to being human, I think,
is connection is wanting to beliked, wanting to be loved, even
in so many cases, and wantingto convince ourselves, perhaps,
that something heinous was notdone to us, that perhaps it was
a misunderstanding, perhaps Ioverreacted, perhaps this was a
(17:07):
good person that I was talkingto, and that is one of the core
things that is used to discreditso many survivors, and it's
what we use often to discreditourselves, I think.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Are you able to share with us the outcomes of the
case, like what sanctions wereimposed?
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
So he was given a two-year minimum suspension,
with re-entry to the schoolallowed, given he had to attend
therapy and it was sign off froma therapist.
And so I appealed because I wassaying this is insane.
(17:45):
He was found responsible forevery single charge which was
there was sexual harassment.
He had sent a number of nudevideos of himself unsolicited.
I had told him to stop.
He kept sending them.
Sexual harassment, there wasmolestation, there was fondling
and non-consensual sexualintercourse.
I believe I might be confusingone of those, but there were
(18:07):
four found responsible for allof them.
And yet the school decided well, you know what?
Let's give you another chance.
We are fine having somebodythat we have decided is a rapist
on campus.
I'm actually not supposed tocall him a rapist if I am to
talk about it, because legallythat's just not the term that
they use.
But yes, I appealed, heappealed and that it was never
(18:32):
over.
The case itself.
It was meant to be wrapped upin 60 days, I believe.
At the time that was Virginia'smandate.
Now it's 90 days, which I thinkthat's good.
Rushing it is never a goodthing.
But seven months of my life andI was so incredibly alone, I was
, you know, in exile of time.
(18:54):
Everything was moving forward,everyone was moving forward and
I was stuck in this one thing.
I could not move on, justobsessing furiously over this
case, leaving class to cryconstantly whenever I got an
email about it, constantly goingin the Title IX office
demanding something, some kindof answer, just hoping someone
(19:15):
would understand, I think, whatI was feeling and I really have
no idea what happened to himafter.
I know.
None of the appeals wentthrough.
They didn't on my end, which Idid not know at the time.
Now I know that I, now that Iam more educated on the topic,
is you know, to appeal you haveto have some kind of grounds,
like there had to have been,like some mishandling of
(19:37):
evidence, no-transcript,exposing all these other women
(20:08):
to somebody like this, to apredator like this.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah, I mean it clearly doesn't balance out
right.
The punishment seems light forwhat you've explained and you
mentioned a couple of terms andI want to kind of dig in a
little bit to you know how shamecan be used as a tool in these
situations.
And also you talked about theillusion of control.
(20:32):
I believe is what you said.
So tell us what you mean bythose.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
So I think a lot of survivors and I host a support
group on Tuesdays that is awomen's sexual assault support
group.
I just facilitate it and Iasked one day you know who here
has felt shame over what'shappened to them?
And every single person raisedtheir hands.
And you know one individual shewas sharing and said it was
(21:00):
easier for me to blame myself,to feel that shame, than to
blame him.
It was easier to say, if Idon't dress like this, if I
don't drink, if I don't go out,if I don't spend time with
people like this, this willnever happen again.
And so she was shrinking herworld, making it smaller and
(21:21):
smaller, removing people,removing, you know, anything
that she was doing, spendingtime with her friends, spending
time with her family, going out,all the things that she had
loved.
She was eliminating for thisillusion of safety, the illusion
of control, this thing that weknow to not be true.
Even if you are ensconced fullyin your home, you are not fully
(21:43):
safe.
And it is a choice, certainlyit is deciding, because, yes,
let's say you're fully locked in.
You have 19 locks on your doorsand windows.
Odds are you're probably saferthan the average woman, but it's
that choice.
You're not living a life.
At that point.
And in that discussion of shame,we talked about how there's
(22:06):
this dehumanization of theassailant, where so many people
said, you know, I don't fullyblame him because he is a
monster and he can't doing thesemonstrous acts, he's just, he's
evil and that is something thatI've always, you know, had
umbrage with.
It's.
You know these terms monster,evil, like these are.
(22:28):
You know, this is a human beingwho has made terrible decisions
and by giving them these youknow these subhuman terms, by
creating them in this, puttingthem in this it's almost
mythical, like this MichaelMyers-esque roleoll we are
removing that notion of thatidea of choice, we are removing
responsibility from them, we areallowing them to get away with
(22:52):
this and we're forgetting thatthey are people who made these
decisions and it's it's onlyit's harmful.
I think it's something we seealso very often too right In TV
and movies, where someone isalways evil.
They're monsters.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Well, a lot of times you see that in fairy tales,
which is what I started thinkingof when you were saying evil,
monster and monstrous.
Yeah, this is not fiction.
We are not in a storybook.
This is really real life andthese real life stories are what
we talk about on this podcastmost often and also what makes
(23:29):
the self-advocacy work that youdo and everything else all the
work that we do at Genesis andTitle IX process extremely
important and it's evolving.
Right, it's probably got a longway to go, but everything is
evolving in this movement.
You've been very open aboutyour own struggles with mental
(23:51):
illness and addiction.
How did this impact your casewhen you filed the Title IX
complaint?
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Sure.
So I was quite lucky in thatwhen you file a Title IX
complaint, as opposed to filinga police report or going through
with a criminal case or a civilsuit where they're allowed to
really use anything against youWith Title IX there are absolute
limits on that.
You are unable to have any kindof character assassination or
(24:22):
at least I know that.
Some things changed under Trumpand DeVos but when I was going
through the process that wassomething that was not allowed
to be brought up.
My past was not allowed to bebrought up.
I was asked to leave school fora year because of what I was
struggling through and I was intreatment for a year before
(24:43):
returning to school, and thiswas known by the dean that chose
the sanctions.
She was the one who personallyasked me to leave and it felt
like this odd conflict ofinterest, but I don't
necessarily think that's worthgoing into.
I really prefer describingthings that are kind of within
my control worth going into.
(25:04):
I really prefer describingthings that are kind of within
my control.
The night itself there wasminor alcohol and some drugs
involved and I will say therewas not much emphasis on that
and I think it's because Idismissed it quite quickly when
it was brought up and this isjust how I've always thought
about it.
Sexual violence in the West isso, so, vastly different from so
(25:29):
many other countries in theEast.
And when we think about thearguments that are used to
defame women, to bring downwomen, to dismiss their stories
you know what were you wearing,what were you drinking, why were
you out at this time that fallsapart.
(25:56):
When we look at sexual violencein the UAE, let's say Mm-hmm.
Arizona, I believe where youknow, marital rape was legal up
until 2001.
Marital rape is still legal ina number of countries.
All these arguments we use todefame women are they fall apart
when you look at sexualviolence outside of this Western
bubble and my experience withaddiction.
(26:18):
It's something that I like tospeak about often, because when
I say I am not the perfectvictim and I think there's so
many organizations, there's somany people saying there's no
such thing you do not ever haveto be perfect to come forward.
There is still an expectationwithin that construct of the
perfect, imperfect victim.
(26:39):
You still have to follow thiskind of series of steps.
You still have to appear, youknow, devastated, incredibly
contrite, remorseful.
God forbid, you know you go outthe next day to a friend's
birthday party because youshould be home in the corner.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Yeah, you know, shriveled up because of what
someone did.
Oh yeah, I have to be crying inthe corner.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Exactly, I have to be on the bathroom floor sobbing.
You know God like making a news.
It's just.
It's incredible that like whatwe decide when it comes to
victims of sexual violence, andit's so unfortunate.
The Amber Heard case is the oneI come back to very often,
where people did not like herand they made that choice based
off that.
You know, we had a case thatchecked off every single box
(27:21):
when it came to domesticviolence, what we look for in
the signs of domestic violence,or you know what could become a
situation like that, and yet wecare so much about likability,
about relatability, that thattruly influences how we, whether
we believe women, whether webelieve their stories.
(27:43):
And you know, I often say nowthere is no such thing anymore
as a perfect victim, I realized,because the perfect victim is
the one who stays silent.
The perfect victim is the onewho does not come forward.
And when I hear about you knowother organizations, other
people talking about how youknow that should not prevent you
from coming forward or sharingyour story, and that's something
(28:06):
I truly agree, but it's notsomething that I'm ever seeing
presented by someone whothemselves will say well, I was
addicted to opiates and thisdrastically affected part of my
life.
This drastically affected whatI saw, what I experienced and
everything after.
And I, you know, marginalizedcommunities are ones that you
(28:29):
know, we are really, reallyfocused on trying to help at WAI
, these people who have not evenhad the chance of having a
voice, and addiction in and ofitself that's one of them.
And I can say and this ispurely anecdotal because
unfortunately there are nostatistics on this and I always,
you know, I always grew up withthis notion that, oh no,
(28:51):
there's statistics on everything.
You can Google absolutelyanything and there will be a
number there.
Intersection of sexual violenceand, you know, addiction there
is.
You know, there are a lot ofreports and articles and studies
on substance misuse followingsexual violence, but nothing
(29:12):
tracking people in activeaddiction.
And why Not?
Necessarily because it's hard,because these are the people we
do not care about, these are thepeople that we dismiss.
And so when I discuss it, Ithink you know it's really, it's
anecdotal, it's what I haveseen, and what I have seen is
that 100% of women who areaddicts have experienced sexual
violence.
And you see a situation whereyou know, let's say, you're
(29:36):
robbed by your dealer, you'renot going to the police and
reporting that to them.
Like, oh, I'm so sorry theystole my Goyard.
Like you're not doing that,extrapolate that to sexual
assaults.
There is this almost thissilent contract kind of that so
many women sign, when I don'twant to say entering into this
(30:00):
lifestyle, because that impliesthat there's a huge level of
choice, but when sliding into it, when this happens that we all
know, that we all kind of agreeto, we know how this works and
with men, with predators, whenthere is vulnerability, they
will always be lying in waitwaiting to take advantage.
(30:21):
And so, because we haven't seenstatistics on this, we haven't
seen any thorough studies onthis, we said we're doing it
ourselves and we're working onbuilding a database, and you
know we're working.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
So let me ask you some questions real quick.
So we can set that up for ourlisteners, because Women's
Advocacy Initiative is yourorganization.
Tell us what that is and thentell us about the studies that
you're doing.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Sure, absolutely so.
The Women's Advocacy Initiative.
Really, to sum up our missionin one sentence it's to remove
those barriers, eliminate thosebarriers that prevent victims of
sexual violence from reportingtheir assailants.
And I always say we have thiskind of two-pronged approach.
There is the direct servicespart of it where we built up our
(31:13):
survivor support network Anumber of trauma-informed,
vetted by us, attorneys,counselors and OB-GYNs, all of
whom are, you know, there'scultural diversity with them.
There's, you know, languagediversity within them.
That is not just important toour organization, it's deeply
(31:35):
important to me, like I said, asthe daughter of Iranian
immigrants.
And these individuals arepeople that you know when we say
they're within our network.
We have worked with themclosely and any survivor who
approaches us, who wants topursue whether it's a Title IX
complaint, file a police report,pursue a civil case, we will
(31:56):
provide them with these servicesfree of cost.
And you know, I think that isit's such a monumental thing to
me, to us, to be able to offer,because so many times I've
spoken with survivors and Ithink there's this narrative
that you know we are frail andwe just want to sit and cry and
(32:18):
do nothing, but it's more thatwe are drowning in confusion.
There is no, no clear path.
There really is no easycoordination with, let's say,
you go get a rape kit done, thenyou're working with medical,
and then let's say, you want togo through a civil suit or file
a police report, pursue criminalcharges, the prosecutor allows
(32:40):
it.
There is no coordination,there's no communication amongst
any of these organizations andyou're left really all alone,
and that is the opposite of whatwe want to do.
We want to be as advocates forsurvivors who want to do this.
We want to provide them withthe resources, and survivors are
(33:01):
the ones who have the power.
Your assailant no longer hasthe power, it is you.
You can do anything.
You can file a police report,like I said, you can pursue a
civil case, you can file a TitleIX complaint if you're in
school, but what you need arethe resources and the community
as well, and the education, andthat is what we aim to provide
(33:22):
when I say we have kind of asecond prong as well, that's
really the educational part ofit the seminars, the fireside
chats that we offer, and thoseare really really focused on
reframing sexual violence, howwe view sexual violence and, in
doing so, hopefully eliminatingthe shame that comes with it,
the shame and the victim blaming, and not at all to dismiss the
(33:45):
direct services or survivorsupport network.
I think that's crucial, but tome this is something that is
fundamental on a deeper level tobe able to restructure how we
view this, how we view sexualviolence, and that I think that
is the barrier to coming forward.
If you are given the resources,the financial resources,
(34:05):
psychological support, thecommunity which is something
we're also really trying tobuild out as communities of
survivors, if you're given thecorrect information, then there
is nothing really in your way.
And I think often we talk aboutthis culture of silence around
rape, around rape culture, butit's something that we
(34:26):
perpetuate, it's something a lotof survivors and a lot of
organizations perpetuate bysaying you know, your trauma is
truly your own, like you,absolutely don't owe anyone your
story, you don't have to doanything, and that's the blanket
response.
But what if somebody does wantto do something, as opposed to
you know, just get counseling.
(34:47):
What if somebody wants to dosomething?
We're at a point where wealmost it's almost radical to
encourage that in someone.
It's not say it's never toshame someone for not reporting,
it's never to say, well, youbetter go report right now or
(35:09):
else we won't help you.
It's to arm you with everysingle thing you need to arm you
with information, arm you withthose resources, arm you with
the education so you feelcomfortable going forward, so
you feel empowered going forward.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
And as if that wasn't enough, as if that wasn't
enough of all the things thatyou do, you also co-founded
Untitled Nine.
What is that?
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Yeah, so that is actually.
That's a company that my fianceand I co-founded and we, you
know, through Untitled Nine, weaim to bring you know actual,
accurate metrics and statisticson sexual violence, on the
script, sex-based discrimination.
We originally started withcollege campuses what we were
(35:53):
thinking, but secondary schoolsare a massive, massive you know
overlooked space as well, andyou know it's a database and an
algorithm that we're buildingand almost a I don't want to say
compliance, but a method ofdetermining you know what would
be appropriate sanctions andwhat would be appropriate.
(36:15):
You know prevention methods andI think prevention is such a
huge thing that we talk about.
It's something that I've seendiscussions on over and over
again and it always seems a bitweak in a sense.
We are so careful, we are soscared.
I think we take one stepforward, we get an inch of
(36:35):
progress and we're terrifiedwe're going to lose it, so we do
nothing.
Consent is something.
Consent education is somethingthat I think we very
successfully actuallyimplemented in schools, in the
workplace, but it's very, verybasic consent.
It's the type of consent youwould teach five-year-olds.
It doesn't dig any deeper thanthat surface level.
(36:58):
And when we think aboutstatistics sorry to bring it
back to Untitled Nine.
Here's just an example.
I suppose we say 2% to 8% ofsexual assault allegations are
considered false.
That includes the policereports that are filed where the
prosecutor has determined thereis not enough evidence.
We have no accurate method ofreporting sexual assault.
(37:23):
The DOJ statistics which RAINN,I know also uses we were on
them recently to try to, Ibelieve, determine just the
rates of violent crime versussexually based, gender based
violent crime, and what they dowith their stats is they include
domestic violence as non-sexualviolent crime.
(37:45):
So the statistics we have thereare also massively, massively
incorrect, because when you arein an abusive relationship, when
there is domestic violenceoccurring, you cannot consent to
sex, you cannot consent.
That is inherently assault andit's kind of that horror, in a
way, of seeing the fact that wedo not have accurate numbers on
(38:07):
anything, and that's somethingthat we aim to do with this
program sex.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
I had an expert on this show a couple of weeks ago
and her stance is and I was alittle taken back when she first
said this but her stance wasthere is no such thing as
non-consensual sex.
There's consensual sex, whichis sex, and then there's rape
and those are the two statuses.
There's like non-consensual sexdoesn't really exist because
it's a rape.
Would you agree with that?
Speaker 2 (38:45):
I fully agree with that and that's something I say
all the time, and I get thatnon-consensual sex is just the
legal term that is meant to use,but I mean truly.
You could use the wordpenetration, you can use any
other word, but that issomething that is.
It's always been infuriating tome because even when it comes
to Title IX complaints, rape isa word that is not allowed.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
You say non-consensual sexual
intercourse always.
The challenge for me is that Imean I understand how hard it is
to hear that word.
It's awful to have to say theword rape, but it really does
explain what happened.
It's obvious what that means.
Non-consensual sex is, you know, if it makes you feel better as
a listener to like listen tothe story and it says
(39:33):
non-consensual sex, okay.
But it's not the perfectdescription of what the reality
is, or maybe how it's anoxymoron yeah.
Um, anyway, we digress.
Uh, tell us the websites forWAI, uh, and maybe your social
(39:54):
media or the best ways to get intouch about all of the work
that you are doing.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
So our website is wa initiativeorg, which I'm always
kicking myself for using theword initiative.
It is a rough one to type.
It can be a lot.
We often reserve for anybodywho wants to reach out for more
(40:22):
information.
If you're on our website andyou're a survivor looking for
resources, that's going to be onour resources page and that
email, if you'd prefer to justdirectly use that, is contact at
wainitiativeorg.
We've had a few people reachout to us, actually via our
Instagram, which is just atWomen's Advocacy Initiative, our
(40:48):
Instagram, which is just atWomen's Advocacy Initiative, and
our LinkedIn, which is alsoWomen's Advocacy Initiative.
But yeah, no, we're availablefor contact in a number of ways
and in our resources section onour site.
If any survivor is in need ofsupport, whether it comes to you
know whether it's counseling,medical or legal reach out to to
.
You know, whether it'scounseling medical or legal,
(41:11):
reach out to us, fill out a formand you know we will get back
to you within 24 hours andeverything is completely
confidential.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Yeah, there's lots of good resources on that website.
I've been on the website.
I really enjoyed lookingthrough what you offer and
what's available and Ithoroughly enjoyed talking with
you today and thank you forsharing your story with us.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Thank you so much and thank you for giving me the
chance to do so and to speakabout.
You know, the Women's AdvocacyInitiative is the most important
thing to me, just the closestthing to my heart, so I so
appreciate being able to chatwith you and to discuss it my
pleasure.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Attention Spanish-speaking listeners.
Listen to the end of thispodcast for information on how
to reach a Spanish-speakingrepresentative of Genesis.
Speaker 3 (41:53):
Atención hispanohablantes escucha este
podcast hasta el final pararecibir información de cómo
comunicarse con el personal deGenesis en español.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
If you or someone you know is in an abusive
relationship, you can get helpor give help at
genesisshelterorg or by callingor texting our 24-7 crisis
hotline team at 214-946-HELP214-946-4357.
Bilingual services at Genesisinclude text, phone call,
(42:22):
clinical counseling, legalservices, advocacy and more.
Call or text us for moreinformation.
Donations to support women andchildren escaping domestic
violence are always needed.
Learn more at genesisshelterorgslash donate.
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
I'm reminding you always that ending domestic
violence begins when we believeher, or by calling or sending a
text message to our 24-hourcrisis line at 214-946-4357.
Genesis Bilingual Servicesinclude text messages, calls,
(43:16):
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Call us or send us a text formore information.
Llámenos o mándenos un textpara más información.
Siempre se necesitan donacionespara apoyar a las mujeres o a
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Aprende más a nuestra página deinternet en genesisshelterorg.
(43:37):
Barra inclinada donate.
Gracias por unirse con nosotros.
Recuerden que el terminar laviolencia doméstica empieza
cuando creemos a la víctima.
Shereen Grylow, survivor and founder of the
Women's Advocacy Initiative,joins the show to share her
experience of sexual violenceand how that led to helping
other survivors.
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis the podcast.
A native of Washington DC,Shereen Grilo graduated from the
(00:42):
College of William Mary with adouble major in economics and
psychology and a minor in arthistory.
Shireen is the founder andchairman of the Women's Advocacy
Initiative, a nonprofitorganization dedicated to
eliminating the barriers thatprevent victims of sexual
violence from reporting theirassailants.
She has spoken to women andgirls at numerous institutions
(01:05):
on the immense value ofself-advocacy and works with
colleges and universities toactively reform their Title IX
processes and sexual assaultprevention initiatives.
For several years, she hasvolunteered with survivors of
domestic abuse and sexualassault, hosting weekly virtual
support groups.
This episode includes details ofsexual violence and addiction
(01:26):
that some may find troubling ortriggering.
Shireen, welcome to the podcast, Thank you so much for having
me.
And you grew up in WashingtonDC, right, that's correct, and
your parents immigrated fromIran.
How long has your family beenin the United States?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
My mother, came pre-revolution, so it's been
quite a while.
My father came about two yearsafter the revolution and they've
been here I want to say it'sbeen a bit over 40 years now.
So I was born in DC and they'velived here for their whole
lives.
I've lived, I've moved aroundquite a bit, some because of my
(02:05):
schooling, some for work, butyeah, dc has always been my home
base, and the same with myparents as well.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
I love DC and I guess that makes you a first
generation American.
Right it does, yes.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Or a third culture kid as well.
I feel like, as everyone issaying, oh yeah, that's really
interesting.
Yeah, no, it's that, especially,you know, post 9-11, being
Middle Eastern.
And it's interesting toobecause my family is not Muslim.
I come from a very long line ofatheists, which is a very
unusual thing to say about, youknow, iranians.
I may be the first to say that,but I certainly had my moments
(02:39):
when I was much younger, youknow, wishing I was white, was I
were European.
Um, just to avoid you know somany reactions, and I was very
lucky I did not have to reallyface, um, I never experienced
any kind of, you know, hatecrime, anything like that.
But so many people would saythey did not, they did not know
(03:00):
what Iran was.
I was like, well, it's reallynot my job to show you a globe
or a map, and it just feltsimpler, you know, to say like,
oh, I'm Greek, so you know.
Or Italian, one of those likeit's white, it's European, but
you look a little darker,perhaps there's some North
African in there.
So when I was a kid, I wouldreally just kind of avoid saying
(03:23):
that.
And then I went to schooloverseas for a bit and, you know
, things changed quite a lot.
I met a lot of internationalstudents and I very much grew,
you know proud of.
You know, just thinking of whatmy parents went through, you
(03:45):
know, the immense amount of, Iguess I think of my life, I
guess in comparison to them, andit's so think of like Paris
Hilton versus like some, youknow, somebody who's working 20
hours a day, it's just thecomparison is crazy and I think
about how lucky and howprivileged I am.
But you know, they worked soincredibly hard and it's a very
(04:07):
interesting thing in Iran tomoney in and of itself.
After the revolution, after theAyatollah was, you know, put in
place, the Shah was kicked out,assets were frozen, they were
seized.
So my mother, she went.
You know, her family had quitea bit of money.
They went from that to nothingovernight.
And so at age 14, she wasliving in Boston.
(04:30):
My bipolar grandfather had justsent all his kids over to
Boston for their education andshe was working like three jobs.
Wow, and no, it was absolutelycrazy to think.
You know, all that time, andyou know I think about what I
was doing at 14.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, which was really nothing like that right.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
No, absolutely Just a life that I was very privileged
to not have to live.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
When did you get to the point where you felt like
you could say to people I'mIranian and not you know some
other ethnicity that maybe thatwould be more palpable for them.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Sure, no, I think when I was about 13, I want to
say, is when that happened, andthat was really when I was
meeting a lot more internationalstudents, people from you know
absolutely all over the world,just because of my schooling and
I think I also, I stoppedcaring.
I realized that nobody elsecared and it was in my head
really, you know, speaking withmy friends, speaking with the
(05:29):
people who were in my socialcircles Sure, there may be some
random person out there who'sgoing to give me, you know, do
something about it, like goingto call me some kind of slut or
whatever, but obviously not thepeople that I interact with.
And I think a lot of itactually, it has to do with
putting faith in the people thatyou keep in your social circles
, the people that you love, thepeople you care about.
(05:50):
And I do remember it reallykind of started with Nohru's
Persian New Year.
My parents would always let metake the day off school for that
, and just telling people aboutthat was kind of the first time
that I was speaking about, youknow, iranian culture, persian
culture, and that felt kind ofhuge.
That felt like a verymonumental shift and after that
(06:11):
it just really kept going, andit was like I kind of unblocked
something in my mind at thatpoint.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
That's great, and that was at a young age too.
I mean 13 is kind of reallyyoung, but then you went to
college here in the UnitedStates College of William and
Mary, and in the last year ofcollege so there's a lot between
here and there, right, we'retalking like 10 years between
what we just talked about andthen the last year of college
for you you had an experience ofsexual violence perpetrated by
(06:41):
a fellow student.
Can you share with us whathappened to you?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Of course.
So I mean I often start offwhen I'm sharing my story by
saying that the Title IX case Iwent through my final year of
undergrad.
That was not the first timethat I had been sexually
assaulted, but it was the firsttime that I reported it and that
is a distinction that to me isvery important to make, that I
(07:07):
had been on both sides of thatreporting and not reporting,
especially given what thenonprofit or what the Women's
Advocacy Initiative really aimsto do, which is support women
who would like to report theirperpetrators.
And you know I never want tosound like I'm on some kind of
high horse and you know likethis is what I do, this is what
everybody else has to do, so Ireally, really like them.
(07:29):
Besides the fact that I havebeen on both sides, when it
happened I had chalked it up asa bad experience, as I think so
many women do, so many of us do.
(07:50):
A year later, I was speakingwith a friend and found out that
she had also had a badexperience with the exact same
man.
I spoke with another person wegot four names just from
speaking to a couple of peopleand I had come forward and I
realized that nobody else hadpursued a case or filed any kind
(08:11):
of report without pursuing aTitle IX complaint, which was
always an option and I thought,well, okay, I guess it has to be
me, which, you know, I doremember thinking I'm I'm
probably the worst person to dothis but at the same time,
potentially the best, because Ihad always my entire life been
(08:31):
uh, my parents would wouldprobably call it a loud mouth or
a micromanager, but it's what Icall self-advocacy.
Um, I was always speaking upfor myself.
I would never sit down and takesomething if I didn't feel like
it was right myself, I wouldnever sit down and take
something if I didn't feel likeit was right, and that was
something that proved to be themost valuable component of this
case.
And I think, just anotherreason why I did not immediately
(08:55):
connect what happened to mewith sexual assault, with rape,
was because I think it's so muchof the misconceptions we have
around sexual violence that itis a one singular violent act as
opposed to a culmination, aseries of events that can lead
to a violent act.
(09:15):
Saying no over and over again,perhaps in a very playful way,
because you don't want to inciteany anger.
And then the notion of just ofgiving in, because what is the
alternative?
To say no, to walk away, therisk that is taken with that I
think we often talk about, youknow, saying no, as that is
(09:36):
really like consent 101, rightno means no.
Saying no it's, you know,portrayed as some kind of the
ultimate, you know act ofstanding up for yourself when
it's really a terrible risk thatwe can take as women.
And I had no idea what implicitcoercion was at the time.
I did not realize that, you know, I had been broken down, that
(09:57):
the threat of violence that hadexisted in that moment was what
broke me down and that thatcounted as sexual violence, that
that counted as rape, until Iwent to the Title IX office and
we were talking about there werefour separate complaints
against him, and it was when Iwas telling my story.
They said, oh no, that's rape,that's non-consensual sexual
(10:20):
intercourse.
That is another complaint, andI had no idea that it counted.
And this is something I sayquite often.
But I know a few women who willsay they have been raped.
But every single woman I knowhas had a bad experience.
As we say, and it is such aterrible euphemism.
(10:44):
I think it's masking violence,it's masking a crime and you
know it's difficult to tell.
Is it masking it for ourselves,for our own sake, so we don't
have to cope with?
You know what comes next, withall the possibilities that come
next?
Or is it because we are nottaught?
Because the education aroundthis is so?
I want to say honestly, it'sfacile.
Education around this is so, Iwant to say honestly, it's
(11:06):
facile, it's very limited.
When we talk about consent, itis incredibly narrow.
We don't talk about implicitcoercion, we don't talk about
power dynamics.
We don't talk about thesecrucial, crucial things that
come into play in most of thesesituations.
And when I came forward I thinkI say this quite often you know
(11:26):
I was again the worst possiblevictim and you know I had a
documented history of bothmental illness and, you know,
substance misuse with the school.
I had come forward a year later.
There was prior consent withthe assailant.
There was contact afterwardswith the assailant as well for a
(11:48):
couple months.
No physical evidence.
It was truly you know my wordagainst his, and these are all.
I really can't think of asingle other thing that would
have stacked up against me.
They really caught them all,like a Pokemon Just got to catch
them all.
But you know that it's really.
It really did not mean anythingto me and I I think this is
(12:09):
kind of a broader thing wherethis there's a misconception
that you know women will comeforward because they have
physical evidence.
My fitbit absolutely showedthat at this time, you know, my
heart rate was very high, orlike gps showed that I was at
this place.
Or you know this rape heartrate was very high, or like GPS
showed that I was at this place,or you know this rape kit.
We think about the number ofuntested rape kits and hundreds
(12:30):
of thousands of untested rapekits, and that's not why women
don't come forward.
We don't come forward becauseof shame.
We don't come forward becauseof victim blaming, the victim
blaming that exists so uniquelywithin the sphere of sexual
violence, this blame that we donot see with other forms of
violent crime.
And I was very lucky.
(12:52):
I was very lucky because I didnot feel shame.
I simply saw myself as a victimof a violent crime and you know
, there was no difference to me.
No-transcript, it is the sameas fists.
(13:32):
It is the ultimate form ofdegradation, humiliation, and
when there is an oppressor, itis something that will always be
used upon the oppressed.
Why is it a tool of war?
Why is it something we see inprisons?
Anything where there must be apower dynamic, we see this kind
of violence, and it doesn't haveto do with sex at all.
(13:53):
And I was lucky enough, I think,that I know self-advocacy.
I'd always been that way sinceI was a child.
I'd always self-advocated,advocated, and I know there are
so many people who you know notonly does it, whether they're
unable to or, you know, theydon't know how to, and it is
absolutely a place of privilegethat I was able to walk into the
Title IX office almost everysingle day, micromanage them,
(14:17):
ask them exactly where they were.
You know, with every singlepart of the process, the fact
that you know I was basicallyplaying Nancy Drew out here.
I was doing half theinvestigative work.
I found false witnesstestimonies, all these things
that weren't my job.
And they sit you down when youcome in originally and they tell
(14:38):
you.
All you need to do is tell thetruth and the rest is our job.
And I knew in that momentabsolutely not, because this was
the most important thing in mylife and there was no way I was
going to entrust this to anybodyelse.
And when I talk aboutself-advocacy, I think that is
really the core of it.
(14:59):
It's that baseline ofunderstanding that you deserve a
level of respect, dignity andcompassion that you will not be
getting from so many people,even if they mean incredibly
well.
It is, what you give yourselfis really not what you are going
(15:19):
to be getting to others.
Understanding that you deservethat and demanding that are the
absolute core of self-advocacyand that was what I was
demanding.
And when it came to the outcomeof the case, it was what was
considered favorable.
I was told that it was.
The sanctions given out were theharshest William and Mary had
(15:41):
given out in 10 years, and I wasabsolutely infuriated because
there was no way my case was theabsolute worst in 10 years and,
as I mentioned, there was thelack of so much evidence.
It was very much she said.
She said and I was told by myadvisor, by a couple of the
deans as well that it had to dowith how I presented my story,
(16:02):
with how I pushed, how Iadvocated for myself, how I was
able to answer those questions.
And you know the questionsmeant to shame us without shame.
And I think these are thethings that we often use to
discredit ourselves and, betteruse, to discredit other
survivors, things like being incontact with your assailant
(16:24):
after, which is one of the mostcommon things in the world.
And when I was asked, you knowwhy were you in contact with
someone you claimed you feared?
Why were you in contact withsomeone you claimed assaulted
you?
And the answer to me was verysimple Because of that fear,
because I wanted to maintainsome kind of cordial
relationship.
I didn't want to be hated.
And that's because I wanted tomaintain some kind of cordial
relationship.
(16:44):
I didn't want to be hated.
And that's the most integralthing to being human, I think,
is connection is wanting to beliked, wanting to be loved, even
in so many cases, and wantingto convince ourselves, perhaps,
that something heinous was notdone to us, that perhaps it was
a misunderstanding, perhaps Ioverreacted, perhaps this was a
(17:07):
good person that I was talkingto, and that is one of the core
things that is used to discreditso many survivors, and it's
what we use often to discreditourselves, I think.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Are you able to share with us the outcomes of the
case, like what sanctions wereimposed?
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
So he was given a two-year minimum suspension,
with re-entry to the schoolallowed, given he had to attend
therapy and it was sign off froma therapist.
And so I appealed because I wassaying this is insane.
(17:45):
He was found responsible forevery single charge which was
there was sexual harassment.
He had sent a number of nudevideos of himself unsolicited.
I had told him to stop.
He kept sending them.
Sexual harassment, there wasmolestation, there was fondling
and non-consensual sexualintercourse.
I believe I might be confusingone of those, but there were
(18:07):
four found responsible for allof them.
And yet the school decided well, you know what?
Let's give you another chance.
We are fine having somebodythat we have decided is a rapist
on campus.
I'm actually not supposed tocall him a rapist if I am to
talk about it, because legallythat's just not the term that
they use.
But yes, I appealed, heappealed and that it was never
(18:32):
over.
The case itself.
It was meant to be wrapped upin 60 days, I believe.
At the time that was Virginia'smandate.
Now it's 90 days, which I thinkthat's good.
Rushing it is never a goodthing.
But seven months of my life andI was so incredibly alone, I was
, you know, in exile of time.
(18:54):
Everything was moving forward,everyone was moving forward and
I was stuck in this one thing.
I could not move on, justobsessing furiously over this
case, leaving class to cryconstantly whenever I got an
email about it, constantly goingin the Title IX office
demanding something, some kindof answer, just hoping someone
(19:15):
would understand, I think, whatI was feeling and I really have
no idea what happened to himafter.
I know.
None of the appeals wentthrough.
They didn't on my end, which Idid not know at the time.
Now I know that I, now that Iam more educated on the topic,
is you know, to appeal you haveto have some kind of grounds,
like there had to have been,like some mishandling of
(19:37):
evidence, no-transcript,exposing all these other women
(20:08):
to somebody like this, to apredator like this.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah, I mean it clearly doesn't balance out
right.
The punishment seems light forwhat you've explained and you
mentioned a couple of terms andI want to kind of dig in a
little bit to you know how shamecan be used as a tool in these
situations.
And also you talked about theillusion of control.
(20:32):
I believe is what you said.
So tell us what you mean bythose.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
So I think a lot of survivors and I host a support
group on Tuesdays that is awomen's sexual assault support
group.
I just facilitate it and Iasked one day you know who here
has felt shame over what'shappened to them?
And every single person raisedtheir hands.
And you know one individual shewas sharing and said it was
(21:00):
easier for me to blame myself,to feel that shame, than to
blame him.
It was easier to say, if Idon't dress like this, if I
don't drink, if I don't go out,if I don't spend time with
people like this, this willnever happen again.
And so she was shrinking herworld, making it smaller and
(21:21):
smaller, removing people,removing, you know, anything
that she was doing, spendingtime with her friends, spending
time with her family, going out,all the things that she had
loved.
She was eliminating for thisillusion of safety, the illusion
of control, this thing that weknow to not be true.
Even if you are ensconced fullyin your home, you are not fully
(21:43):
safe.
And it is a choice, certainlyit is deciding, because, yes,
let's say you're fully locked in.
You have 19 locks on your doorsand windows.
Odds are you're probably saferthan the average woman, but it's
that choice.
You're not living a life.
At that point.
And in that discussion of shame,we talked about how there's
(22:06):
this dehumanization of theassailant, where so many people
said, you know, I don't fullyblame him because he is a
monster and he can't doing thesemonstrous acts, he's just, he's
evil and that is something thatI've always, you know, had
umbrage with.
It's.
You know these terms monster,evil, like these are.
(22:28):
You know, this is a human beingwho has made terrible decisions
and by giving them these youknow these subhuman terms, by
creating them in this, puttingthem in this it's almost
mythical, like this MichaelMyers-esque roleoll we are
removing that notion of thatidea of choice, we are removing
responsibility from them, we areallowing them to get away with
(22:52):
this and we're forgetting thatthey are people who made these
decisions and it's it's onlyit's harmful.
I think it's something we seealso very often too right In TV
and movies, where someone isalways evil.
They're monsters.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Well, a lot of times you see that in fairy tales,
which is what I started thinkingof when you were saying evil,
monster and monstrous.
Yeah, this is not fiction.
We are not in a storybook.
This is really real life andthese real life stories are what
we talk about on this podcastmost often and also what makes
(23:29):
the self-advocacy work that youdo and everything else all the
work that we do at Genesis andTitle IX process extremely
important and it's evolving.
Right, it's probably got a longway to go, but everything is
evolving in this movement.
You've been very open aboutyour own struggles with mental
(23:51):
illness and addiction.
How did this impact your casewhen you filed the Title IX
complaint?
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Sure.
So I was quite lucky in thatwhen you file a Title IX
complaint, as opposed to filinga police report or going through
with a criminal case or a civilsuit where they're allowed to
really use anything against youWith Title IX there are absolute
limits on that.
You are unable to have any kindof character assassination or
(24:22):
at least I know that.
Some things changed under Trumpand DeVos but when I was going
through the process that wassomething that was not allowed
to be brought up.
My past was not allowed to bebrought up.
I was asked to leave school fora year because of what I was
struggling through and I was intreatment for a year before
(24:43):
returning to school, and thiswas known by the dean that chose
the sanctions.
She was the one who personallyasked me to leave and it felt
like this odd conflict ofinterest, but I don't
necessarily think that's worthgoing into.
I really prefer describingthings that are kind of within
my control worth going into.
(25:04):
I really prefer describingthings that are kind of within
my control.
The night itself there wasminor alcohol and some drugs
involved and I will say therewas not much emphasis on that
and I think it's because Idismissed it quite quickly when
it was brought up and this isjust how I've always thought
about it.
Sexual violence in the West isso, so, vastly different from so
(25:29):
many other countries in theEast.
And when we think about thearguments that are used to
defame women, to bring downwomen, to dismiss their stories
you know what were you wearing,what were you drinking, why were
you out at this time that fallsapart.
(25:56):
When we look at sexual violencein the UAE, let's say Mm-hmm.
Arizona, I believe where youknow, marital rape was legal up
until 2001.
Marital rape is still legal ina number of countries.
All these arguments we use todefame women are they fall apart
when you look at sexualviolence outside of this Western
bubble and my experience withaddiction.
(26:18):
It's something that I like tospeak about often, because when
I say I am not the perfectvictim and I think there's so
many organizations, there's somany people saying there's no
such thing you do not ever haveto be perfect to come forward.
There is still an expectationwithin that construct of the
perfect, imperfect victim.
(26:39):
You still have to follow thiskind of series of steps.
You still have to appear, youknow, devastated, incredibly
contrite, remorseful.
God forbid, you know you go outthe next day to a friend's
birthday party because youshould be home in the corner.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Yeah, you know, shriveled up because of what
someone did.
Oh yeah, I have to be crying inthe corner.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Exactly, I have to be on the bathroom floor sobbing.
You know God like making a news.
It's just.
It's incredible that like whatwe decide when it comes to
victims of sexual violence, andit's so unfortunate.
The Amber Heard case is the oneI come back to very often,
where people did not like herand they made that choice based
off that.
You know, we had a case thatchecked off every single box
(27:21):
when it came to domesticviolence, what we look for in
the signs of domestic violence,or you know what could become a
situation like that, and yet wecare so much about likability,
about relatability, that thattruly influences how we, whether
we believe women, whether webelieve their stories.
(27:43):
And you know, I often say nowthere is no such thing anymore
as a perfect victim, I realized,because the perfect victim is
the one who stays silent.
The perfect victim is the onewho does not come forward.
And when I hear about you knowother organizations, other
people talking about how youknow that should not prevent you
from coming forward or sharingyour story, and that's something
(28:06):
I truly agree, but it's notsomething that I'm ever seeing
presented by someone whothemselves will say well, I was
addicted to opiates and thisdrastically affected part of my
life.
This drastically affected whatI saw, what I experienced and
everything after.
And I, you know, marginalizedcommunities are ones that you
(28:29):
know, we are really, reallyfocused on trying to help at WAI
, these people who have not evenhad the chance of having a
voice, and addiction in and ofitself that's one of them.
And I can say and this ispurely anecdotal because
unfortunately there are nostatistics on this and I always,
you know, I always grew up withthis notion that, oh no,
(28:51):
there's statistics on everything.
You can Google absolutelyanything and there will be a
number there.
Intersection of sexual violenceand, you know, addiction there
is.
You know, there are a lot ofreports and articles and studies
on substance misuse followingsexual violence, but nothing
(29:12):
tracking people in activeaddiction.
And why Not?
Necessarily because it's hard,because these are the people we
do not care about, these are thepeople that we dismiss.
And so when I discuss it, Ithink you know it's really, it's
anecdotal, it's what I haveseen, and what I have seen is
that 100% of women who areaddicts have experienced sexual
violence.
And you see a situation whereyou know, let's say, you're
(29:36):
robbed by your dealer, you'renot going to the police and
reporting that to them.
Like, oh, I'm so sorry theystole my Goyard.
Like you're not doing that,extrapolate that to sexual
assaults.
There is this almost thissilent contract kind of that so
many women sign, when I don'twant to say entering into this
(30:00):
lifestyle, because that impliesthat there's a huge level of
choice, but when sliding into it, when this happens that we all
know, that we all kind of agreeto, we know how this works and
with men, with predators, whenthere is vulnerability, they
will always be lying in waitwaiting to take advantage.
(30:21):
And so, because we haven't seenstatistics on this, we haven't
seen any thorough studies onthis, we said we're doing it
ourselves and we're working onbuilding a database, and you
know we're working.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
So let me ask you some questions real quick.
So we can set that up for ourlisteners, because Women's
Advocacy Initiative is yourorganization.
Tell us what that is and thentell us about the studies that
you're doing.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Sure, absolutely so.
The Women's Advocacy Initiative.
Really, to sum up our missionin one sentence it's to remove
those barriers, eliminate thosebarriers that prevent victims of
sexual violence from reportingtheir assailants.
And I always say we have thiskind of two-pronged approach.
There is the direct servicespart of it where we built up our
(31:13):
survivor support network Anumber of trauma-informed,
vetted by us, attorneys,counselors and OB-GYNs, all of
whom are, you know, there'scultural diversity with them.
There's, you know, languagediversity within them.
That is not just important toour organization, it's deeply
(31:35):
important to me, like I said, asthe daughter of Iranian
immigrants.
And these individuals arepeople that you know when we say
they're within our network.
We have worked with themclosely and any survivor who
approaches us, who wants topursue whether it's a Title IX
complaint, file a police report,pursue a civil case, we will
(31:56):
provide them with these servicesfree of cost.
And you know, I think that isit's such a monumental thing to
me, to us, to be able to offer,because so many times I've
spoken with survivors and Ithink there's this narrative
that you know we are frail andwe just want to sit and cry and
(32:18):
do nothing, but it's more thatwe are drowning in confusion.
There is no, no clear path.
There really is no easycoordination with, let's say,
you go get a rape kit done, thenyou're working with medical,
and then let's say, you want togo through a civil suit or file
a police report, pursue criminalcharges, the prosecutor allows
(32:40):
it.
There is no coordination,there's no communication amongst
any of these organizations andyou're left really all alone,
and that is the opposite of whatwe want to do.
We want to be as advocates forsurvivors who want to do this.
We want to provide them withthe resources, and survivors are
(33:01):
the ones who have the power.
Your assailant no longer hasthe power, it is you.
You can do anything.
You can file a police report,like I said, you can pursue a
civil case, you can file a TitleIX complaint if you're in
school, but what you need arethe resources and the community
as well, and the education, andthat is what we aim to provide
(33:22):
when I say we have kind of asecond prong as well, that's
really the educational part ofit the seminars, the fireside
chats that we offer, and thoseare really really focused on
reframing sexual violence, howwe view sexual violence and, in
doing so, hopefully eliminatingthe shame that comes with it,
the shame and the victim blaming, and not at all to dismiss the
(33:45):
direct services or survivorsupport network.
I think that's crucial, but tome this is something that is
fundamental on a deeper level tobe able to restructure how we
view this, how we view sexualviolence, and that I think that
is the barrier to coming forward.
If you are given the resources,the financial resources,
(34:05):
psychological support, thecommunity which is something
we're also really trying tobuild out as communities of
survivors, if you're given thecorrect information, then there
is nothing really in your way.
And I think often we talk aboutthis culture of silence around
rape, around rape culture, butit's something that we
(34:26):
perpetuate, it's something a lotof survivors and a lot of
organizations perpetuate bysaying you know, your trauma is
truly your own, like you,absolutely don't owe anyone your
story, you don't have to doanything, and that's the blanket
response.
But what if somebody does wantto do something, as opposed to
you know, just get counseling.
(34:47):
What if somebody wants to dosomething?
We're at a point where wealmost it's almost radical to
encourage that in someone.
It's not say it's never toshame someone for not reporting,
it's never to say, well, youbetter go report right now or
(35:09):
else we won't help you.
It's to arm you with everysingle thing you need to arm you
with information, arm you withthose resources, arm you with
the education so you feelcomfortable going forward, so
you feel empowered going forward.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
And as if that wasn't enough, as if that wasn't
enough of all the things thatyou do, you also co-founded
Untitled Nine.
What is that?
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Yeah, so that is actually.
That's a company that my fianceand I co-founded and we, you
know, through Untitled Nine, weaim to bring you know actual,
accurate metrics and statisticson sexual violence, on the
script, sex-based discrimination.
We originally started withcollege campuses what we were
(35:53):
thinking, but secondary schoolsare a massive, massive you know
overlooked space as well, andyou know it's a database and an
algorithm that we're buildingand almost a I don't want to say
compliance, but a method ofdetermining you know what would
be appropriate sanctions andwhat would be appropriate.
(36:15):
You know prevention methods andI think prevention is such a
huge thing that we talk about.
It's something that I've seendiscussions on over and over
again and it always seems a bitweak in a sense.
We are so careful, we are soscared.
I think we take one stepforward, we get an inch of
(36:35):
progress and we're terrifiedwe're going to lose it, so we do
nothing.
Consent is something.
Consent education is somethingthat I think we very
successfully actuallyimplemented in schools, in the
workplace, but it's very, verybasic consent.
It's the type of consent youwould teach five-year-olds.
It doesn't dig any deeper thanthat surface level.
(36:58):
And when we think aboutstatistics sorry to bring it
back to Untitled Nine.
Here's just an example.
I suppose we say 2% to 8% ofsexual assault allegations are
considered false.
That includes the policereports that are filed where the
prosecutor has determined thereis not enough evidence.
We have no accurate method ofreporting sexual assault.
(37:23):
The DOJ statistics which RAINN,I know also uses we were on
them recently to try to, Ibelieve, determine just the
rates of violent crime versussexually based, gender based
violent crime, and what they dowith their stats is they include
domestic violence as non-sexualviolent crime.
(37:45):
So the statistics we have thereare also massively, massively
incorrect, because when you arein an abusive relationship, when
there is domestic violenceoccurring, you cannot consent to
sex, you cannot consent.
That is inherently assault andit's kind of that horror, in a
way, of seeing the fact that wedo not have accurate numbers on
(38:07):
anything, and that's somethingthat we aim to do with this
program sex.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
I had an expert on this show a couple of weeks ago
and her stance is and I was alittle taken back when she first
said this but her stance wasthere is no such thing as
non-consensual sex.
There's consensual sex, whichis sex, and then there's rape
and those are the two statuses.
There's like non-consensual sexdoesn't really exist because
it's a rape.
Would you agree with that?
Speaker 2 (38:45):
I fully agree with that and that's something I say
all the time, and I get thatnon-consensual sex is just the
legal term that is meant to use,but I mean truly.
You could use the wordpenetration, you can use any
other word, but that issomething that is.
It's always been infuriating tome because even when it comes
to Title IX complaints, rape isa word that is not allowed.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
You say non-consensual sexual
intercourse always.
The challenge for me is that Imean I understand how hard it is
to hear that word.
It's awful to have to say theword rape, but it really does
explain what happened.
It's obvious what that means.
Non-consensual sex is, you know, if it makes you feel better as
a listener to like listen tothe story and it says
(39:33):
non-consensual sex, okay.
But it's not the perfectdescription of what the reality
is, or maybe how it's anoxymoron yeah.
Um, anyway, we digress.
Uh, tell us the websites forWAI, uh, and maybe your social
(39:54):
media or the best ways to get intouch about all of the work
that you are doing.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
So our website is wa initiativeorg, which I'm always
kicking myself for using theword initiative.
It is a rough one to type.
It can be a lot.
We often reserve for anybodywho wants to reach out for more
(40:22):
information.
If you're on our website andyou're a survivor looking for
resources, that's going to be onour resources page and that
email, if you'd prefer to justdirectly use that, is contact at
wainitiativeorg.
We've had a few people reachout to us, actually via our
Instagram, which is just atWomen's Advocacy Initiative, our
(40:48):
Instagram, which is just atWomen's Advocacy Initiative, and
our LinkedIn, which is alsoWomen's Advocacy Initiative.
But yeah, no, we're availablefor contact in a number of ways
and in our resources section onour site.
If any survivor is in need ofsupport, whether it comes to you
know whether it's counseling,medical or legal reach out to to
.
You know, whether it'scounseling medical or legal,
(41:11):
reach out to us, fill out a formand you know we will get back
to you within 24 hours andeverything is completely
confidential.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Yeah, there's lots of good resources on that website.
I've been on the website.
I really enjoyed lookingthrough what you offer and
what's available and Ithoroughly enjoyed talking with
you today and thank you forsharing your story with us.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Thank you so much and thank you for giving me the
chance to do so and to speakabout.
You know, the Women's AdvocacyInitiative is the most important
thing to me, just the closestthing to my heart, so I so
appreciate being able to chatwith you and to discuss it my
pleasure.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Attention Spanish-speaking listeners.
Listen to the end of thispodcast for information on how
to reach a Spanish-speakingrepresentative of Genesis.
Speaker 3 (41:53):
Atención hispanohablantes escucha este
podcast hasta el final pararecibir información de cómo
comunicarse con el personal deGenesis en español.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
If you or someone you know is in an abusive
relationship, you can get helpor give help at
genesisshelterorg or by callingor texting our 24-7 crisis
hotline team at 214-946-HELP214-946-4357.
Bilingual services at Genesisinclude text, phone call,
(42:22):
clinical counseling, legalservices, advocacy and more.
Call or text us for moreinformation.
Donations to support women andchildren escaping domestic
violence are always needed.
Learn more at genesisshelterorgslash donate.
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
I'm reminding you always that ending domestic
violence begins when we believeher, or by calling or sending a
text message to our 24-hourcrisis line at 214-946-4357.
Genesis Bilingual Servicesinclude text messages, calls,
(43:16):
counseling, legal services,advice and more.
Call us or send us a text formore information.
Llámenos o mándenos un textpara más información.
Siempre se necesitan donacionespara apoyar a las mujeres o a
los niños escapando de laviolencia doméstica.
Aprende más a nuestra página deinternet en genesisshelterorg.
(43:37):
Barra inclinada donate.
Gracias por unirse con nosotros.
Recuerden que el terminar laviolencia doméstica empieza
cuando creemos a la víctima.
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