December 2, 2024 • 50 mins
We welcome back Edy Nathan, a renowned therapist and grief expert, who shares her poignant journey through grief as shaped by personal experiences of profound loss. Edy opens up about the transformative impact of losing her partner to cancer in her late twenties, a pivotal event that led her to a deeper understanding of grief and its manifestations beyond the death of a loved one, including domestic violence. Her insights challenge traditional views, urging us to see grief as a non-linear process that offers the potential for growth and resilience.
Grief can shape our lives in unexpected ways, especially in the context of abusive relationships. In our conversation, we explore how such environments lead to a complex form of grief marked by the loss of self and identity. Edy sheds light on the silent struggles of survivors who often put their children's safety before their own well-being, and the resulting grief that often goes unnoticed. The discussion extends to the ways children express their grief, emphasizing the importance of finding the right language and support to facilitate healing for both adults and children trapped in silence as a coping mechanism.
This episode includes personal stories of experiences with death, dying, illness, grief, intimate partner violence, anxiety and agoraphobia that some may find troubling or triggering. Please take care of yourself while listening to this conversation.
These stories, the personal experiences of our guest Edy Nathan, are not shared or intended to stand alone or be an end in themselves. Rather, Edy uses her personal experiences as teachable moments for both herself, and generously, for all of us.
As such, this episode also includes examples of bravery in the face of adversity, the courageous spirit of a survivor who uses both her voice and her work to empower others, and the extraordinary ability of the human spirit to survive violence, confront trauma, embrace grief, and emerge from all of it resilient, though not unchanged.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Therapist, author and grief expert, edie Nathan is
back with her own personalstories of survival, tools for
tackling anxiety and news of anew interactive project for
trauma survivors.
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis, the podcast.
Edie Nathan is a licensedclinical social worker, author,
(00:24):
public speaker and licensedtherapist.
She has earned degrees from NewYork University and Fordham
University, with postgraduatetraining at the Ackerman
Institute for Family Therapy.
She practices in New York City.
This episode includes personalstories of experiences with
death, dying, illness, grief,intimate partner violence,
(00:44):
anxiety and agoraphobia thatsome may find troubling or
triggering.
Please take care of yourselfwhile listening to this
conversation.
These stories, the personalexperiences of our guest Edie
Nathan, are not shared orintended to stand alone or be an
end in themselves.
Rather, edie uses her personalexperiences as teachable moments
(01:05):
for both herself and,generously, for all of us.
As such, this episode alsoincludes examples of bravery in
the face of adversity, thecourageous spirit of a survivor
who uses both her voice and herwork to empower others, and the
extraordinary ability of thehuman spirit to survive violence
.
And the extraordinary abilityof the human spirit to survive
violence, confront trauma,embrace grief and emerge from
(01:27):
all of it resilient, though notunchanged.
We acknowledge that trauma,grief, violence and other
adverse experiences are verypersonal and very different for
each of us, and respect that thejourney of every survivor takes
time, patience and fortitude.
If you're listening, as asurvivor, we stand with you and
we support you.
(01:47):
It is our hope that by offeringboth personal experiences and
examples of therapeuticpractices, that you will feel
empowered and supported.
Edie is an expert in workingthrough grief.
When most of us think of grief,we likely equate it with the
loss of a loved one, but grieftakes many other forms as well,
and experts agree that traumaticexperiences such as domestic
(02:10):
violence can result in griefthat ranges from the loss of the
relationship, loss of the worldas we knew it, or a loss of
self.
Today, we explore traumathrough the lens of grief to
better understand loss and ourresponses to it.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Edie.
Welcome to the show.
It's wonderful to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
It's great to have you back.
It's been a little while sincewe got together and I know
you've been very busy workingall around the world, and I'm
grateful to have some time withyou again Now.
We've talked several times overthe years on this show.
I think we met in 21 or 22, andthen again in 23.
And mostly we've talked aboutgrief in the context of domestic
(02:52):
violence and sexual violence,as well as your work as a grief
therapist.
I recently viewed your webinar,getting to Love, where you not
only talked about recovery froma sexually traumatic event, but
also provided participants tools, some hands-on practices that
they could do in the moment toactivate healing and promote
(03:13):
calm, and I want to bring someof those to our listeners.
And before we do that, though,we also learned about you in the
webinar and some of your ownhealing process.
Can you share with us what ledyou to this work with grief?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
When I was in my late 20s, my partner died.
I was 27 years old.
He died and we were, we were.
He was an actor, I was an actor, but you know, we were very
psychologically minded.
I was back in school reallythinking that I was going to go
(03:50):
into the corporate life and docorporate training, and that's
what I was going to do.
And then he was diagnosed,sadly, with a kind of cancer
that people don't tend tosurvive from, and he didn't.
And we were together duringthat whole process and when it,
when he finally left his body,um, I wanted to leave mine too
(04:15):
and there just didn't seem to beany help for me there.
Yeah, I was, I was I.
I sought out help, I sought outtherapists and I got more
messages that said it's okay,You're young, You'll find
another partner, and that's aterrible message to give anyone
(04:39):
who's grieving the loss of theirlove.
And that message really like Ididn't know what to do with it.
I was insulted, I was angry, Ibecame very angry, and when
anger turns inward, it alsoturns into anxiety, and the
anxiety that I was feeling justtook me down and I said you know
(05:01):
what this has got to stop.
And so, because I'm aresearcher, because I love
knowledge, I said, okay, I'vegot to learn about this thing
called grief.
Had I had losses?
Yes, but I hadn't even lostgrandparents that I had known at
that point.
So this was a big loss.
(05:23):
And I read Elizabeth Kubler-Ross.
But then, upon readingElizabeth Kubler-Ross, I
realized but this is for peoplewho are dying, it's not for the
living.
And that then sent me on awhole other kind of journey.
You know what?
There's a different way to lookat grief.
(05:46):
And the more I push it away,you know what happens it gets
bigger, Right, and the more Idance with it.
And that's like the subtitle ofmy first book the Dance of
Self-Discovery Through Traumaand Loss.
It was like if I partner withyou, if I get to know you, if I
get to understand when you comein and when you want to rest in
(06:09):
my body and why you wake me upand instead of saying no, go
away, but rather okay, I'm goingto feel you, I'm going to
invite you in.
It became a whole differentexperience.
And when I looked for booksthat said invite it in, dance
with it, understand it, see itstemperament almost like learning
(06:32):
to date someone new, there wasnothing out there.
And there began my journey intowriting about becoming
well-learned in what is griefand learned, of course, that
grief is different for everyoneand that it's non-linear.
And though we want it to be in abox and all we have to do is go
(06:56):
step B, step C, step D, step Eand we're done, it doesn't work
that way, and I wished right.
I see you're shaking your head.
Yeah, no, it doesn't work thatway.
And I wished right.
I see you shaking your head.
No, it doesn't work that way.
No, it doesn't work that way.
What it does is it's like it'slike a maze, and there are mazes
where you do a meander, andthere are mazes where you know
(07:20):
it's it's.
It's more like a maze where youstop and start, whereas the
meander it's like when am Ifinally going to get to the
center, to the core?
And those labyrinths are really, I think, what grief is like.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Yeah, I think that's an incredible comparison or just
to give us the visual of whatit's like to be on a journey
with grief.
It is kind of a winding road.
You really don't know how toget through it or where the exit
might be, or if there is one infact.
That's right.
That's right.
Thank you for sharing that withus.
(07:57):
Now, a lot of your work turnedtoward supporting people who
experience some form of sexualviolence, right or intimate
partner violence, and we talkabout those topics on this show
all of the time, but we don'talways remember them within the
(08:18):
context of grief, because wedon't think about things as
grief when everyone is living.
We typically experience griefdue to the loss of life, so the
death of a loved one orsomething like that.
But there's all kinds of griefand you've educated us about
that over the years.
Let's talk about those types ofgrief that people experience
(08:42):
when they're in a relationshipand either the relationship is
over, it's broken up, themarriage has ended, there's
intimate partner violence.
What types of grief do peoplein those situations experience?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
On one hand, the reason I begin with just an
overview of grief and myperspective on grief is because
if we, if we can have a platform, this is what grief is and it's
non-linear and it doesn't fitinto a box.
Then, talking about the griefthat goes into intimate partner
violence or or or sexuallytraumatic imprints or events
(09:24):
that happen that are predatoryevents really, that to
understand that when someone'sbody is hurt, when someone's
psyche is chastised and taken,stripped away so that one's
(09:45):
personal identity is lost, it'sgrief and that loss of self.
When someone is hurt, reallyhurt and hurt by someone,
because we know the statisticsusually and I don't know what
the statistics are, but they'repretty high usually, and I don't
(10:06):
know what the statistics are,but they're pretty high when
there is sexual violence, it'susually happens with someone you
know, someone you are inrelationship with, yeah, or
someone someone who is close tothe family.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yeah, and one of the descriptions that I've read
about some of your work you callit quote like some part of you
was taken without yourpermission.
That's right End quote.
And so, in other words, thenyou grieve the loss of that part
of yourself that in some waysdoesn't exist anymore.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
That's exactly right.
And what happens?
That part of you and thank youfor the quote, you know, because
it is as if a part of you andthank you for the quote because
it is as if a part of you hasbeen cut out and you're like an
amputee and there's somethingbeen amputated from you.
The thing is is that sometimeswe're not even aware of the
(10:59):
missing pieces from the mosaicthat makes up the beauty of us.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
I could see that, especially when we're talking
about someone in an abusiverelationship who is managing a
lot of moving parts, possiblyhas safety concerns, is trying
to leave, trying to get custodyorders, filing for divorce,
trying to keep the kids inschool and doing everything
(11:28):
they're supposed to be doing,the last thing she's thinking
about is grieving, even thoughshe may be grieving all along.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
That's right.
And the last thing she'sthinking about especially if
she's got kids right is herself.
She's thinking about what arethe best ways right?
What are the best ways that Ican keep my kids safe and I will
die for them.
I will do whatever I need to doto protect them.
(12:00):
And that's of course themindset, because our children,
we must protect them.
But sometimes we're not takingcare of the self and we're not
even thinking about our ownpsyches or our own depression or
our own anxiety, and it comesout in very tangled ways.
(12:22):
Maybe there's unconsciouscutting, maybe there's drinking,
maybe there's obsessivethinking, maybe there's
unconscious cutting, maybethere's drinking, maybe there's
obsessive thinking, maybethere's anxiety, and those are
all pieces of the mosaic ofsurvival and they are survival.
They may not be some of thebest choices, but if those are
(12:42):
the choices that may even helpcalm the nervous system and we
know that sometimes thesechoices do in the long run they
hurt.
They hurt the survivalist, theyhurt the woman who's been
facing the horrors that she'sfaced.
If she can begin to say okay,when I go to the bathroom, I'm
(13:05):
going to actually take in threebreaths and I'm just going to
sit here a little bit longer andif she can trust that nobody's
going to burst through that doorand if she's in a safe house or
a safe space, then she canbegin to do that.
And it may be the beginning ofonly three breaths on the toilet
, which sounds silly threebreaths on the toilet, which
(13:27):
sounds silly but it may be theonly place where there's a
little bit of quiet or safety orprivacy.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I have to wonder too whenchildren are involved in these
scenarios, are the childrengrieving as well?
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
The children often will seethings that they've been told
not to see, Like let's pretendthat this isn't happening.
It's, you know, we can call itgaslighting, but we use the term
gaslighting so much.
I think it's just it's theparents trying to say you know,
(14:00):
no, this isn't happening andwe're going to write a different
script for you and the childreneither buy it or they don't buy
it.
But the grief is not only theloss of the primary mother, but
also the mother's partner orhusband or wife.
I mean, this is just, it's sohard on the children and of
(14:22):
course they're grieving.
But grief and you and I havetalked about this in children
looks very different than griefin adults.
We see regressive behavior inchildren.
So a child that might be atoddler, who might be potty
trained, all of a sudden isn'tChild sleeping through the night
, may not?
A child may show more signs ofanxiety, cognitive issues,
(14:46):
memory isn't good, or if theyare playing games.
There are so many popular videogames these days, but all their
concentration is on those games.
It's a way for them to escape,and so escapism is also a way of
dealing with the grief.
(15:06):
And there's no language forkids.
We barely have it as adults.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah, another thing that you said.
This is another quote from you.
The body, mind and soul oftengo into hiding and remain silent
as a go-to coping mechanism.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yeah, that's right.
I thank you for the quote.
And yes, the soul and the bodyand the mind and grief will
filter through the mind and thebody and the soul in different
ways.
If we think about the body, thebody can hold on to grief and
also the traumatic imprint ofviolence and crimes against the
(15:41):
body in a variety of ways.
There can be eating disorders,so that either there's just kind
of a starvation, not beinghungry, denying food almost as a
way to feel something whenyou're numb, or eating in
abundance even though you maynot even be hungry.
(16:02):
You may not even be aware of ahunger signal.
You may not even be aware of ahunger signal.
You may not even be aware of ahunger signal that you're
feeding yourself just to calmthe nervous system and we're
learning so much about whathappens in the nervous system
right now.
And so the eating is just onething, sleep disruption is
(16:22):
another.
Grief can absolutely filterthrough.
So if you were a good sleeperand you're not sleeping, if
you're waking up intermittentlyand the waking up intermittently
may have also been a patternwithin a violent home just to
see okay, where's my partner?
Is my partner next to me?
Is my partner up and around.
Do I need to be hyper?
That hypervigilance sets thenervous system up to just be
(16:49):
awake and aware at all times andso sleep.
What we find often is if youask someone who has gone through
intimate partner domesticviolence and they've been within
those situations, they willoften not dream because they're
not going deep enough into asleep.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Oh wow, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
So because they're on the surface, I liken it to
bamboo that bamboo grows on thesurface and yet can destroy.
And certainly when we don'tdream, it can create greater
depression, anxiety, nervousness, dryness in the mouth,
inability to focus.
So, and those are all becauseyou're not getting the proper
(17:34):
sleep and that hypervigilancewill certainly you want to
protect yourself and your kids,so you're barely sleeping.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, so you're like in that survival mode, right?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Complete survival mode.
Complete survival mode.
And I had a personal experience.
When I was in college I dated areally crazy ex-con.
It was not a good situation andI was really afraid of him and
(18:08):
I was really afraid of him.
And what ended up happening is,I was so scared and I was
afraid I was I'm a deep sleeperthat I wasn't going to hear him,
and so we were living inapartments and I attached a
string from my apartment to myfriend's apartment with a bell
attached, and so if the dooropened, you know it would ring
the bell and then it would letmy neighbor know.
And I have chills when I talkabout this because it was so
(18:31):
long ago, but when I remember itit's as if it was yesterday.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Oh, that's amazing.
Thank you for sharing that withus.
Yeah, I think, looking back onsituations like that, they can
be re-traumatizing if we don'theal from them.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Yes.
So let's just talk about whathappens emotionally when there's
grief.
Yes, it's hard to focus, butyou may find yourself going
between anger and anxiety andthose are really important
emotions.
Because when you don'texperience the anger and anxiety
and those are really importantemotions, because when you don't
experience the anger and youmay not have been allowed to
(19:08):
experience it or you may haveflattened it because your rage
was so extreme that you wereafraid, maybe, that you know we
do go into killer instinctssometimes and we may not like
that parts of our, those partsof ourselves.
But it's like I need to protectmy kids and it's like there may
(19:28):
be ideas or thoughts I justwant to hurt the person who's
hurting me.
And though that is a thoughtand it's an emotion, it is
really anger and rage.
So to have a place to expel itwhether you write it down,
whether you pound pillows toexpel some of the anger will
(19:49):
actually help the anxiety andthat's very, very important.
Anyone who comes in to see mewith this kind of history, what
I will ask is tell me about youranxiety and if it's extreme,
then I say have you felt anger?
Well, no, I kind of put thataway.
(20:09):
What happens when there's theexpression of the anger, the
anxiety begins to dissipate andit's an amazing thing to see so
emotionally you are going tomove in and out of all of the
different phases of grief.
And those phases I number 11,but it really goes from the
(20:30):
numbness and the denial andthere's five in what I call
emotional armor and they areyour emotional armor all the way
down to grace, and the grace isnot healing, or I am healed
Because I don't want anybody tohave an emotional misgiving that
because you're out of asituation and you're doing what
(20:52):
you need to do for protection,to be healed to me sometimes
means to forget and I'm not sosure that we ever forget, as I
just spoke about my experiencein a dorm, but I think that we
learn to remember morepeacefully and that for me is
how I define healing emotionallyover to the spirit and one's
(21:20):
spirit and one's spiritualityand one's belief system.
Oftentimes we are brought upwith the religion or the belief
system of a family unit, of ourcommunity, and when we find
ourselves in situations, whenyou are in a situation where you
(21:40):
are trapped, where you arereally held hostage by what is
going on and you are being hurtover and, over and over again
emotionally put down, physicallyput down or perhaps even
spiritually not being allowed topray, not being allowed to
honor your faith, not beingallowed to go with your
girlfriends or be in communitythose are all spiritual things.
(22:03):
It doesn't necessarily meanthat we need to go to a house of
worship.
Being with friends can actuallybe a wonderfully spiritual
thing.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
I think spirituality is different for everyone, right
, and it's the spirit ofcommunity.
Sometimes it's that network ofsupport and nothing frightens an
abusive person more than theirintended victim having other
people in their lives.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
And paying attention to others who are not that
abusive person.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
That's exactly right.
And so what ends up happeningto the spiritual world is your
community gets smaller andsmaller to the spiritual world
is your community gets smallerand smaller.
And those are signs.
And when you start missing yourfriends, if you find that
somehow your phone isn't workingor you can't find your cell
phone, things go missing and youthink you're losing your mind,
(22:57):
you're not.
Your mind and your brain reallyare intact, but there's this
predatory event that continuesto happen.
And when the spiritual, I feellike our spiritual health is so
vastly important.
And so when you finally beginto find a little bit of freedom,
(23:21):
where you're a little moreliberated, the first step I
would invite you to take is tobegin to dabble in meeting
friends, being in community,talking about things that don't
matter, even if it's just theweather.
Nobody needs to know the storyif you don't want to share it.
(23:42):
But also understand that everytime you tell one little aspect
of part of your story, whatyou're doing is you're telling
your brain.
You're not afraid of it, andyou may actually be opening a
door for someone who is stuck ina way that you have no idea
(24:03):
about.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
That's so insightful and I love the idea that by
talking about it, you're tellingyourself you're not afraid of
it.
Tell us a little bit more aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
So, as we were talking about anger and anxiety,
if you are not afraid of youranger and you allow yourself to
express it, then the anxietydissipates.
It is the same thing.
If you are not afraid and we,you know, women become very
afraid.
Even that that that collegeexperience I had I was really
(24:36):
afraid to even talk about itbecause was, was, was he going
to come after me?
And he ended up going back intoprison, this guy.
But was he going to come afterme somehow or send somebody
after me?
So I couldn't talk about it.
And when I finally began to sayokay, you know what, I'm going
to be brave enough to say yeah,I got so afraid one time I had
(24:59):
to create a string between mydoor and somebody else's door
and that's all I said.
I didn't have to say anythingelse.
But I I could feel some releasewithin my body and it was like
nothing happened.
And as the brain begins tolearn, okay, I'm still here, no
one's, no one's come and burstinto the door and told me that
(25:19):
I'm not supposed to speak, orlocked me in the bathroom, or
told me to stay in the darkcloset.
Okay, it's going to be okay.
And then the more you can sharewith someone who is a safe
person for you.
And I don't know what that isfor anyone.
It's going to be different foreveryone.
(25:41):
But to dare this is a daringdance.
To begin to share a little bitabout what you've experienced.
It opens up a world for yournervous system to not have to
hold it all.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Yeah, and it makes me think that you know, by by
talking about it when we'reready and with people that we
feel, create a safe space for us, those thoughts no longer
control us.
That's right.
That's right, we can releasethem and we can move on, and I
love that you shared thatstrategy with us.
I'd love to hear some otherstrategies that you might have,
(26:17):
other strategies that you mighthave, and if we can go back to
the anger and anxiety example,I'm sure a lot of people who
experience domestic abuse, eventhough they're being abused,
they have some anger right.
It can make you very angry andhave a lot of anxiety.
(26:38):
So let's talk about examples ofhow to release anger in a
healthy way in order to sootheanxiety.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
It's going to be different for everyone, sure, so
what works for one might notwork for another.
So, whatever, I suggest here toall of you that you know, all
of you who are listening, youknow, I want you to know, I see
you, I see you even though Idon't see you, and I hear you
even though I can't hear yourvoices, and I hold you in my
(27:09):
heart and sometimes, when thereis that, when there's anger, we
first need to even acknowledgeits presence and to even just
say I am angry is an exercise.
The next part of that is whereis my anger?
In my body?
And a lot of people it's intheir gut, and the gut is
(27:33):
there's ulcers, there's burping,there's bad breath, know teeth
that aren't doing well, and it'soften because of the gut.
And so if you've got like stuffthat's going on belly aches,
tummy aches a lot of timesthere's anger there.
And so to even put your handsand this is not like a out there
(27:58):
kind of exercise but just say,okay, you know anger, you might
be in my belly and when yougurgle, maybe that's anger.
And I'm just going to tell youthat I'm paying attention.
Because what do we want to do?
What often happens with angeris nope, I'm avoiding you at all
(28:19):
costs.
Nope, I am not looking at you,I'm not dealing with you.
And it could be the opposite.
All I'm going to do is feel myanxiety, because anxiety feels
easier than anger, and I didn'thappen to feel that anxiety was
easier than anger, but I alsocouldn't get to my anger.
(28:39):
So the anxiety was rampant.
And you know, anxiety is just.
You know, shaky hands, sweatypalms, dry mouth, hard to focus,
tapping feet, words that comeout sideways.
You know, I call it spaghettibrain.
It's almost like, cognitively,I'm just not thinking straight,
(29:00):
which is also part of theemotional hurt that happens for
people who are in domestic abusesituations.
There's this emotional braincognitive craziness that gives
you messages of am unworthy, Iam ugly, I didn't walk away, so
(29:29):
I am bad, and the goal is tocounter that.
So I am angry.
And instead of like anger, goaway, it's like yeah, you are
and you have every right to be,and to even say that, yeah, you
have every right to be.
And for some of you, writingabout your anger in a notebook
could be great.
For others, maybe it's hittinga pillow and saying I am so
(29:54):
angry.
For others it might be walking,exercise, I don't know.
There are these bands that youcan get and they're not
expensive at like a Dick's orlike a workout place, and there
are bands and sometimes when I'mworking with clients and also
with myself is I'll take thosebands and I'll just stretch them
(30:16):
and I'll say, okay, I'm angrybut I'm releasing.
I'm angry but I'm releasing.
And if you've got kids, thebands can actually be a
wonderful game and you play atug of war.
You're not asking your child toget in touch with their anger,
but what happens in a tug of war, and if you really play the tug
of war, well then they're goingto go and you're going to go
(30:39):
and you know, truly, in a gamelike that you're also releasing
the energy of anger.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Yeah, I can get the visual on that one as well.
I can just imagine so manydifferent systems are activated
in a game of tug of war,especially a friendly one, right
, yeah?
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Yeah, yeah, and so that friendly tug of war.
You're using your body, you'reusing your mind, you're using
all of your strength, and youknow what the intention is, mom.
But on the other hand, you knowit doesn't matter, because if
you're engaging with the child,you are doing a whole lot of
stuff.
You're engaging with them,you're concentrating on them,
(31:20):
you're also working on yourself.
You're making something into agame when maybe they haven't
even had that kind of contactwith you.
That's been like a game.
So it is finding other games.
It might be going and playinglike you know, a game on the
internet and that is, you know,not violent, but sometimes I've
(31:44):
found, like car races or, youknow, doing anything where there
might be a shared competition,could be really fun, because the
desire to win and that'sanother place where, if you
don't have the desire in a gamelike that to win and I'm not
talking about like when you'replaying with your kids,
necessarily, but just like Iwant to do this, that's letting
(32:07):
you know the grief is there,because I think that we can be a
good competitive and that'sabout life, it's about like, oh,
I want to win Takes a certainenergy.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
It does and it kind of is a validation of wanting to
be alive and participate inhumanity.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
That's right.
That's right.
And it's not I want to beatsomeone, but it's wanting to win
for the self.
And that's talking to the brain.
I was talking to theforefathers of polyvagal theory,
to the brain.
I was talking to theforefathers of polyvagal theory,
stephen Porges, and he reallytalks about the nervous system.
And I said so you know what'sgoing on, you know in sexual
(32:50):
violence and domestic violencewhat's happening?
And he said it's the brainstem.
And I then took it a stepfurther, because the brainstem
really communicates to ourentire body and when the
brainstem kind of dies, there'sno communication or aliveness to
the rest of the body.
So what we want to do is sayknock, knock on the brainstem,
(33:13):
knock, knock, knock.
Are you there and say, okay,come on, come out, let's
reinvigorate you.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeah, that's another interesting analogy and a good
visual of you know.
Just, I think after grief thereis life, but there will always
be a little bit of grief in lifethere is.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
There's a little bit of grief.
But you know, without pain Idon't really think we have
growth.
Now I'm not talking aboutdomestic abuse, pain I wouldn't
wish that on anyone but justlife's ups and downs and the
topsy-turviness of course youknow, and the pain that your
listeners have had.
(33:53):
No one should ever experiencethis kind of pain.
No one, no one, no one.
Pain no one, no one, no one.
And it doesn't mean you have toremain in it.
And what we know during you knowwhat happens if someone is
repeatedly hit in the head is itreally does affect how we think
(34:14):
and it really does affect howyou know those neural pathways
and do you have the power tochange and shift those neural
pathways?
Absolutely.
And what we know is that you'vegot the power to do that by
acknowledging your negativecognitions, which we mentioned
earlier, and instead of sayingI'm going to just stay in this
(34:35):
judgment of myself, to say youknow what I can do this
differently.
Yes, I feel this way.
And there's another way that Ican think about this One.
If you're even listening to this, you're already ahead of the
game.
If you're in a safe house,you're already ahead of the game
.
If you're in a group withsurvivalists.
(34:56):
You're already.
You're doing it.
If you take one step in frontof the other and you're still
living in the situation thatyou're in and you are not
finding a way to get out, andyou're listening to this, you're
getting to a place where it'sgoing to feel okay enough for
you to get the help you need.
(35:16):
And those are all strategies ofself-talk.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Yeah, there are some really great strategies in some
of your trainings, in your book,in your website.
I also noticed that sometimesyou work with archetypes which
I'm not real familiar.
I mean, I'm familiar enoughwith them, but not in depth, and
so I'd love to know how thoseare helpful or important in
healing and moving forward, andwould they work for, let's say,
(35:44):
victims of domestic violence.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
So yes, let me answer the last question first.
They would absolutely work withpeople who have lived with
domestic violence, absolutely.
However, the archetypes aregood, really, for anyone, it's
all people.
Archetypes are non-binary.
(36:07):
Even when they're binary,they're non-binary, and I say
that because, if we think, letme define what an archetype is,
oh, that would be helpful.
Yes, do that, okay.
So why don't we just talk aboutthat?
So an archetype is a termdeveloped by a Jungian
psychologist.
His name is Carl Jung, jungianCarl Jung, and it's spelled in a
(36:30):
really weird way, in case youwant to look it up J-U-N-G.
J-u-n-g is his last name, name,and he saw that we have symbols
and we have relationships withroles that, no matter where
(36:52):
you're from, no matter what yoursocioeconomic background, no
matter what you know, it doesn'tmatter that we all understand
certain terms or certain rolesthat we have or people we've met
.
So if I say mother, no matterwhat language I'm speaking it in
, everyone knows what that wordmeans.
(37:13):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
So mother would be an archetype right Mother is an
archetype.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
So when we think of mother, father, king, queen,
those are archetypes, and withinevery archetype, these
collective symbols that we allrelate to, there's the good part
of the archetype, and thenthere is what is called the
shadow.
The good archetype is like thegood mother, the good king, the
(37:40):
good father, and there are somany, many archetypes that can
be part of a conversation.
So the good mother is reallythe good enough mother in the
archetype.
That archetype of the goodmother is someone who's caring
and loving, someone who shows up, someone who nurtures someone
(38:00):
and for everyone.
What that archetype might becould be different, but the
shadow is really the darker sideof the mother the mother that
held neglect, the mother thatwas abusive, the mother that is
cruel, the mother that isjudgmental, and so we have two
different aspects of mother,father and all of these other
(38:24):
archetypes.
What the archetype allowsanyone to do, and if we're
talking about to all of you herein this audience that it is a
way to say okay, so I know thatI want to be more like the good
mother archetype, but sometimesI go into that shadow place and
(38:46):
my mother was that shadow inthat shadow place, and what it
allows is a projection.
It gives you some distance fromtalking from the eye per se and
just saying, oh, within thisarchetype I recognize some parts
of myself and I recognize thedarker sides of myself, and the
(39:07):
shadow is what we don't want tolook at and we kind of enter
into a space with those aspectsof that archetype, the darker
side.
Archetype, the darker side, andwe grapple with it, we talk to
it, we understand it, we try tounderstand how it might
interrupt us from our ownhappiness or from being the
(39:32):
mother, or engendering themother that we would like to own
within ourselves.
And sometimes in survivalistsof domestic violence, what I
find is that often they haven'tincorporated the good mother,
not that they're not goodmothers, but maybe they didn't
(39:54):
feel their own good mother, andso the archetype allows them to
understand what even is a goodmother.
I didn't know that maybe a goodmother would feed me or make my
bed or share her bed with me ifwe didn't have two beds, or
(40:14):
keep me safe.
I didn't understand that, andso what the archetypes
conversation allows us to do isperhaps see what these different
roles are, and the morepositive and the darker side, so
that we can perhaps understandourselves through them.
I'll tell you the story.
So I had terrible anxiety.
(40:36):
I had such bad anxiety that Iwas agoraphobic and I couldn't
even leave my house.
That's how bad my anxiety was.
Now, was this before yourhusband died or after?
Experienced was a verydifferent anxiety.
But once the brain touches onagoraphobia and the inability to
(41:02):
leave one's house, it'smasterful at stealing your soul
and stealing your freedom, and Iwas truly held hostage by it.
It wasn't my languaging backthen, but it is now Anyway.
So I was going to therapy threedays a week.
The man I was living with wastaking me to his therapist.
I could barely walk down aflight of stairs without my
(41:26):
pulse going to 180 beats perminute.
I kid you not.
I kid you not.
I ended up in more ERs in NewYork City.
I know all of them veryintimately because I kept
thinking I was having a heartattack at 23.
And it was just horrific.
So after about a year I startedto venture out.
(41:50):
It was not easy.
I was able to walk down a flightof stairs and one of the few
first forays onto a subway, Ihad gone into the city.
I was living in Brooklyn, I wentinto the city, so it's about a
20-minute ride, 25-minute ridefrom Brooklyn, where I was
living, to the city, new YorkCity, and then I was taking the
subway back and it was the timewhere chains were stolen and so
(42:15):
I was counting because mytherapist told me to count that
while I was on the train, to tryto get my mind off of what I
was, where I wanted to go, whichwas the anxiety and the panic
and feeling like I couldn'tbreathe.
I was on the train and I wascounting and then, all of a
sudden, this very tall man grabsmy neck and my chain around my
(42:38):
neck and I looked at him and Iswore and I said don't you
effing dare.
I grabbed his wrist.
Now I was two stops away fromwhere I needed to get off, and
me walking was never an option,but I got off the train at the
next stop was never an option,but I got off the train at the
(43:04):
next stop.
It stopped him and my anxietywas gone and I thought, oh my
God, wow, it was the distillingof the anger that actually
interrupted the anxiety and Iwalked home and, for the first
time in a year and a half, Ifelt free.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
That's incredible.
I have the chills.
I felt free.
Wow, I'm so grateful to hearthat story from you and I have
to ask you any idea what broughton the agoraphobia for you?
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Yeah, I was.
I'd left home when I was 17.
And actually I went away toschool when I was 15 because I
really couldn't be in the house.
It wasn't apparently an unsafehouse, but it was an unsafe
house for me, and so I returnedfor a couple of months and then
(43:58):
I left.
Mm-hmm, I loved to travel, andthen my parents were always at
each other and I was the onethat my mom went to, so I was
(44:23):
the one she confided in and toldher truths to, and part of me
needing to get out was being inthat role of surrogate, and I
couldn't really handle itanymore.
So I told them that if theywanted through some really great
therapy, they wanted to see methey needed to come and see me
(44:43):
separately because I didn't wantto be triangulated any longer.
Right?
So, 23 years old, my mom comesto visit and we go out to dinner
and she begins like justranting about things at home and
I really couldn't take itanymore.
And instead of really gettingangry with her, the anger turned
(45:06):
inward, I believe, and we werein a very, very tall building
having dinner and I looked ather and I said I'm not going to
be able to get down.
I can't get down, I can't getinto that elevator.
I don't know, maria, what hitme.
I don't know what changed in mybrain in that moment, but all I
can tell you it was as if theAchilles tendon snapped in my
(45:28):
brain and she literally had todrag me into that elevator.
We went down 66 floors and fromthat point forward, once I
landed in my apartment, I said Ican't get out.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
So you were kind of trapped in yourself for about a
year until you were able to letyour anger out.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
That's right.
The saddest part of the story,I think, is that my mom they
lived in Chicago left.
So I called the guy I wasdating.
I'd been dating him for threeweeks and I called him and I
said I need help and he came andhe moved in and he took care of
me.
Wow, she left.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
That's a lot for a young woman.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Yeah, but that's why I do the work I do.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
I'm so proud of you.
Thank you, I'm so proud of you.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
I am so proud of you telling us about that experience
You've had so many of them andyour recovery, and I just I
admire your strength, becausethe stories are important, you
know, and it's like, okay, Icome here and you know, I look,
I can talk about all of thisstuff and I have a healthy
(46:40):
distance from them, but it's notthat they don't walk with me
and they're not in every pieceof what I do.
Yeah, and I may not have cutson my back or on my arms or
across my face, but they're inmy heart.
I understand that arms or acrossmy face, but they're in my
heart.
I understand that.
(47:01):
I think the stories areimportant, you know, and to
understand that just because I'ma clinician and a therapist and
you know I went back to schooland whatever that, I come here
with my wounds.
They're just not showing, butthey express themselves by
helping others.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
When we were talking earlier, you mentioned a new
project that you're working on.
Tell us about that, sure.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
So I, as you know and I don't know that your audience
knows this, that we've touchedon it I'm writing a new book
called right now it's a workingtitle, so nobody hold me to this
, okay.
Okay, you're not being held toit it's called the sexual grief
effect from loathing toliberation to love, and it's
really self-loathing toliberation to self-love.
(47:48):
And you know, so often whenthere's any kind of a predatory
event, it really holds ushostage and it's it creates this
kind of self-loathing ordisgust or shame.
And what I'm working on isteaching people how to become
more liberated from kind of ahostage situation that they find
(48:11):
themselves in right.
And then get to self-love, whichis hard.
We don't really know what loveis and sometimes we don't even
know how it feels or what theexperience of it is, when it
might even be right in front ofus.
And so that's the book, and I'minviting people to become part
of the Sexual Grief Project,whether it's you want to share
(48:33):
your stories, and they can bepart of the book, or not.
Or you just want to share yourstories, and they can be part of
the book or not, or you justwant to share your stories, and
what I am going to be doing inthe next few months is once a
sub stack, a free sub stack,where people can come in and
(48:58):
read articles about alldifferent things around grief,
around sexual grief, aroundfreeing the hostage, around
hostage techniques andstrategies, and just learning a
lot about becoming part of thisproject.
That will grow legs becauseyou're talking about it and it's
(49:22):
called the Sexual Grief Project.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
That sounds so interesting.
I mean, I'd love to have youcome back in a couple of months,
or even a couple of years, andlet us know more about that.
I look forward to reading thebook.
I love talking with you andlearning from you.
Tell us your website before Ilet you go.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
Certainly so.
It's edy, E-D-Y, N-A-T-H-A-N,ednathancom and sexualgriefcom.
So those are the two websites.
Edie, thanks so much for beingon the show.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
Thank you so much.
It was a pleasure.
Genesis Women's Shelter andSupport exists to give women in
abusive situations a way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence, and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
(50:17):
domestic violence.
You can learn more atGenesisShelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
Genesis Women's Shelter, and onX at Genesis Shelter.
The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, 7 days
a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.
Therapist, author and grief expert, edie Nathan is
back with her own personalstories of survival, tools for
tackling anxiety and news of anew interactive project for
trauma survivors.
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis, the podcast.
Edie Nathan is a licensedclinical social worker, author,
(00:24):
public speaker and licensedtherapist.
She has earned degrees from NewYork University and Fordham
University, with postgraduatetraining at the Ackerman
Institute for Family Therapy.
She practices in New York City.
This episode includes personalstories of experiences with
death, dying, illness, grief,intimate partner violence,
(00:44):
anxiety and agoraphobia thatsome may find troubling or
triggering.
Please take care of yourselfwhile listening to this
conversation.
These stories, the personalexperiences of our guest Edie
Nathan, are not shared orintended to stand alone or be an
end in themselves.
Rather, edie uses her personalexperiences as teachable moments
(01:05):
for both herself and,generously, for all of us.
As such, this episode alsoincludes examples of bravery in
the face of adversity, thecourageous spirit of a survivor
who uses both her voice and herwork to empower others, and the
extraordinary ability of thehuman spirit to survive violence
.
And the extraordinary abilityof the human spirit to survive
violence, confront trauma,embrace grief and emerge from
(01:27):
all of it resilient, though notunchanged.
We acknowledge that trauma,grief, violence and other
adverse experiences are verypersonal and very different for
each of us, and respect that thejourney of every survivor takes
time, patience and fortitude.
If you're listening, as asurvivor, we stand with you and
we support you.
(01:47):
It is our hope that by offeringboth personal experiences and
examples of therapeuticpractices, that you will feel
empowered and supported.
Edie is an expert in workingthrough grief.
When most of us think of grief,we likely equate it with the
loss of a loved one, but grieftakes many other forms as well,
and experts agree that traumaticexperiences such as domestic
(02:10):
violence can result in griefthat ranges from the loss of the
relationship, loss of the worldas we knew it, or a loss of
self.
Today, we explore traumathrough the lens of grief to
better understand loss and ourresponses to it.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Edie.
Welcome to the show.
It's wonderful to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
It's great to have you back.
It's been a little while sincewe got together and I know
you've been very busy workingall around the world, and I'm
grateful to have some time withyou again Now.
We've talked several times overthe years on this show.
I think we met in 21 or 22, andthen again in 23.
And mostly we've talked aboutgrief in the context of domestic
(02:52):
violence and sexual violence,as well as your work as a grief
therapist.
I recently viewed your webinar,getting to Love, where you not
only talked about recovery froma sexually traumatic event, but
also provided participants tools, some hands-on practices that
they could do in the moment toactivate healing and promote
(03:13):
calm, and I want to bring someof those to our listeners.
And before we do that, though,we also learned about you in the
webinar and some of your ownhealing process.
Can you share with us what ledyou to this work with grief?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
When I was in my late 20s, my partner died.
I was 27 years old.
He died and we were, we were.
He was an actor, I was an actor, but you know, we were very
psychologically minded.
I was back in school reallythinking that I was going to go
(03:50):
into the corporate life and docorporate training, and that's
what I was going to do.
And then he was diagnosed,sadly, with a kind of cancer
that people don't tend tosurvive from, and he didn't.
And we were together duringthat whole process and when it,
when he finally left his body,um, I wanted to leave mine too
(04:15):
and there just didn't seem to beany help for me there.
Yeah, I was, I was I.
I sought out help, I sought outtherapists and I got more
messages that said it's okay,You're young, You'll find
another partner, and that's aterrible message to give anyone
(04:39):
who's grieving the loss of theirlove.
And that message really like Ididn't know what to do with it.
I was insulted, I was angry, Ibecame very angry, and when
anger turns inward, it alsoturns into anxiety, and the
anxiety that I was feeling justtook me down and I said you know
(05:01):
what this has got to stop.
And so, because I'm aresearcher, because I love
knowledge, I said, okay, I'vegot to learn about this thing
called grief.
Had I had losses?
Yes, but I hadn't even lostgrandparents that I had known at
that point.
So this was a big loss.
(05:23):
And I read Elizabeth Kubler-Ross.
But then, upon readingElizabeth Kubler-Ross, I
realized but this is for peoplewho are dying, it's not for the
living.
And that then sent me on awhole other kind of journey.
You know what?
There's a different way to lookat grief.
(05:46):
And the more I push it away,you know what happens it gets
bigger, Right, and the more Idance with it.
And that's like the subtitle ofmy first book the Dance of
Self-Discovery Through Traumaand Loss.
It was like if I partner withyou, if I get to know you, if I
get to understand when you comein and when you want to rest in
(06:09):
my body and why you wake me upand instead of saying no, go
away, but rather okay, I'm goingto feel you, I'm going to
invite you in.
It became a whole differentexperience.
And when I looked for booksthat said invite it in, dance
with it, understand it, see itstemperament almost like learning
(06:32):
to date someone new, there wasnothing out there.
And there began my journey intowriting about becoming
well-learned in what is griefand learned, of course, that
grief is different for everyoneand that it's non-linear.
And though we want it to be in abox and all we have to do is go
(06:56):
step B, step C, step D, step Eand we're done, it doesn't work
that way, and I wished right.
I see you're shaking your head.
Yeah, no, it doesn't work thatway.
And I wished right.
I see you shaking your head.
No, it doesn't work that way.
No, it doesn't work that way.
What it does is it's like it'slike a maze, and there are mazes
where you do a meander, andthere are mazes where you know
(07:20):
it's it's.
It's more like a maze where youstop and start, whereas the
meander it's like when am Ifinally going to get to the
center, to the core?
And those labyrinths are really, I think, what grief is like.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Yeah, I think that's an incredible comparison or just
to give us the visual of whatit's like to be on a journey
with grief.
It is kind of a winding road.
You really don't know how toget through it or where the exit
might be, or if there is one infact.
That's right.
That's right.
Thank you for sharing that withus.
(07:57):
Now, a lot of your work turnedtoward supporting people who
experience some form of sexualviolence, right or intimate
partner violence, and we talkabout those topics on this show
all of the time, but we don'talways remember them within the
(08:18):
context of grief, because wedon't think about things as
grief when everyone is living.
We typically experience griefdue to the loss of life, so the
death of a loved one orsomething like that.
But there's all kinds of griefand you've educated us about
that over the years.
Let's talk about those types ofgrief that people experience
(08:42):
when they're in a relationshipand either the relationship is
over, it's broken up, themarriage has ended, there's
intimate partner violence.
What types of grief do peoplein those situations experience?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
On one hand, the reason I begin with just an
overview of grief and myperspective on grief is because
if we, if we can have a platform, this is what grief is and it's
non-linear and it doesn't fitinto a box.
Then, talking about the griefthat goes into intimate partner
violence or or or sexuallytraumatic imprints or events
(09:24):
that happen that are predatoryevents really, that to
understand that when someone'sbody is hurt, when someone's
psyche is chastised and taken,stripped away so that one's
(09:45):
personal identity is lost, it'sgrief and that loss of self.
When someone is hurt, reallyhurt and hurt by someone,
because we know the statisticsusually and I don't know what
the statistics are, but they'repretty high usually, and I don't
(10:06):
know what the statistics are,but they're pretty high when
there is sexual violence, it'susually happens with someone you
know, someone you are inrelationship with, yeah, or
someone someone who is close tothe family.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yeah, and one of the descriptions that I've read
about some of your work you callit quote like some part of you
was taken without yourpermission.
That's right End quote.
And so, in other words, thenyou grieve the loss of that part
of yourself that in some waysdoesn't exist anymore.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
That's exactly right.
And what happens?
That part of you and thank youfor the quote, you know, because
it is as if a part of you andthank you for the quote because
it is as if a part of you hasbeen cut out and you're like an
amputee and there's somethingbeen amputated from you.
The thing is is that sometimeswe're not even aware of the
(10:59):
missing pieces from the mosaicthat makes up the beauty of us.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
I could see that, especially when we're talking
about someone in an abusiverelationship who is managing a
lot of moving parts, possiblyhas safety concerns, is trying
to leave, trying to get custodyorders, filing for divorce,
trying to keep the kids inschool and doing everything
(11:28):
they're supposed to be doing,the last thing she's thinking
about is grieving, even thoughshe may be grieving all along.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
That's right.
And the last thing she'sthinking about especially if
she's got kids right is herself.
She's thinking about what arethe best ways right?
What are the best ways that Ican keep my kids safe and I will
die for them.
I will do whatever I need to doto protect them.
(12:00):
And that's of course themindset, because our children,
we must protect them.
But sometimes we're not takingcare of the self and we're not
even thinking about our ownpsyches or our own depression or
our own anxiety, and it comesout in very tangled ways.
(12:22):
Maybe there's unconsciouscutting, maybe there's drinking,
maybe there's obsessivethinking, maybe there's
unconscious cutting, maybethere's drinking, maybe there's
obsessive thinking, maybethere's anxiety, and those are
all pieces of the mosaic ofsurvival and they are survival.
They may not be some of thebest choices, but if those are
(12:42):
the choices that may even helpcalm the nervous system and we
know that sometimes thesechoices do in the long run they
hurt.
They hurt the survivalist, theyhurt the woman who's been
facing the horrors that she'sfaced.
If she can begin to say okay,when I go to the bathroom, I'm
(13:05):
going to actually take in threebreaths and I'm just going to
sit here a little bit longer andif she can trust that nobody's
going to burst through that doorand if she's in a safe house or
a safe space, then she canbegin to do that.
And it may be the beginning ofonly three breaths on the toilet
, which sounds silly threebreaths on the toilet, which
(13:27):
sounds silly but it may be theonly place where there's a
little bit of quiet or safety orprivacy.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I have to wonder too whenchildren are involved in these
scenarios, are the childrengrieving as well?
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
The children often will seethings that they've been told
not to see, Like let's pretendthat this isn't happening.
It's, you know, we can call itgaslighting, but we use the term
gaslighting so much.
I think it's just it's theparents trying to say you know,
(14:00):
no, this isn't happening andwe're going to write a different
script for you and the childreneither buy it or they don't buy
it.
But the grief is not only theloss of the primary mother, but
also the mother's partner orhusband or wife.
I mean, this is just, it's sohard on the children and of
(14:22):
course they're grieving.
But grief and you and I havetalked about this in children
looks very different than griefin adults.
We see regressive behavior inchildren.
So a child that might be atoddler, who might be potty
trained, all of a sudden isn'tChild sleeping through the night
, may not?
A child may show more signs ofanxiety, cognitive issues,
(14:46):
memory isn't good, or if theyare playing games.
There are so many popular videogames these days, but all their
concentration is on those games.
It's a way for them to escape,and so escapism is also a way of
dealing with the grief.
(15:06):
And there's no language forkids.
We barely have it as adults.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah, another thing that you said.
This is another quote from you.
The body, mind and soul oftengo into hiding and remain silent
as a go-to coping mechanism.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yeah, that's right.
I thank you for the quote.
And yes, the soul and the bodyand the mind and grief will
filter through the mind and thebody and the soul in different
ways.
If we think about the body, thebody can hold on to grief and
also the traumatic imprint ofviolence and crimes against the
(15:41):
body in a variety of ways.
There can be eating disorders,so that either there's just kind
of a starvation, not beinghungry, denying food almost as a
way to feel something whenyou're numb, or eating in
abundance even though you maynot even be hungry.
(16:02):
You may not even be aware of ahunger signal.
You may not even be aware of ahunger signal.
You may not even be aware of ahunger signal that you're
feeding yourself just to calmthe nervous system and we're
learning so much about whathappens in the nervous system
right now.
And so the eating is just onething, sleep disruption is
(16:22):
another.
Grief can absolutely filterthrough.
So if you were a good sleeperand you're not sleeping, if
you're waking up intermittentlyand the waking up intermittently
may have also been a patternwithin a violent home just to
see okay, where's my partner?
Is my partner next to me?
Is my partner up and around.
Do I need to be hyper?
That hypervigilance sets thenervous system up to just be
(16:49):
awake and aware at all times andso sleep.
What we find often is if youask someone who has gone through
intimate partner domesticviolence and they've been within
those situations, they willoften not dream because they're
not going deep enough into asleep.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Oh wow, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
So because they're on the surface, I liken it to
bamboo that bamboo grows on thesurface and yet can destroy.
And certainly when we don'tdream, it can create greater
depression, anxiety, nervousness, dryness in the mouth,
inability to focus.
So, and those are all becauseyou're not getting the proper
(17:34):
sleep and that hypervigilancewill certainly you want to
protect yourself and your kids,so you're barely sleeping.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, so you're like in that survival mode, right?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Complete survival mode.
Complete survival mode.
And I had a personal experience.
When I was in college I dated areally crazy ex-con.
It was not a good situation andI was really afraid of him and
(18:08):
I was really afraid of him.
And what ended up happening is,I was so scared and I was
afraid I was I'm a deep sleeperthat I wasn't going to hear him,
and so we were living inapartments and I attached a
string from my apartment to myfriend's apartment with a bell
attached, and so if the dooropened, you know it would ring
the bell and then it would letmy neighbor know.
And I have chills when I talkabout this because it was so
(18:31):
long ago, but when I remember itit's as if it was yesterday.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Oh, that's amazing.
Thank you for sharing that withus.
Yeah, I think, looking back onsituations like that, they can
be re-traumatizing if we don'theal from them.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Yes.
So let's just talk about whathappens emotionally when there's
grief.
Yes, it's hard to focus, butyou may find yourself going
between anger and anxiety andthose are really important
emotions.
Because when you don'texperience the anger and anxiety
and those are really importantemotions, because when you don't
experience the anger and youmay not have been allowed to
(19:08):
experience it or you may haveflattened it because your rage
was so extreme that you wereafraid, maybe, that you know we
do go into killer instinctssometimes and we may not like
that parts of our, those partsof ourselves.
But it's like I need to protectmy kids and it's like there may
(19:28):
be ideas or thoughts I justwant to hurt the person who's
hurting me.
And though that is a thoughtand it's an emotion, it is
really anger and rage.
So to have a place to expel itwhether you write it down,
whether you pound pillows toexpel some of the anger will
(19:49):
actually help the anxiety andthat's very, very important.
Anyone who comes in to see mewith this kind of history, what
I will ask is tell me about youranxiety and if it's extreme,
then I say have you felt anger?
Well, no, I kind of put thataway.
(20:09):
What happens when there's theexpression of the anger, the
anxiety begins to dissipate andit's an amazing thing to see so
emotionally you are going tomove in and out of all of the
different phases of grief.
And those phases I number 11,but it really goes from the
(20:30):
numbness and the denial andthere's five in what I call
emotional armor and they areyour emotional armor all the way
down to grace, and the grace isnot healing, or I am healed
Because I don't want anybody tohave an emotional misgiving that
because you're out of asituation and you're doing what
(20:52):
you need to do for protection,to be healed to me sometimes
means to forget and I'm not sosure that we ever forget, as I
just spoke about my experiencein a dorm, but I think that we
learn to remember morepeacefully and that for me is
how I define healing emotionallyover to the spirit and one's
(21:20):
spirit and one's spiritualityand one's belief system.
Oftentimes we are brought upwith the religion or the belief
system of a family unit, of ourcommunity, and when we find
ourselves in situations, whenyou are in a situation where you
(21:40):
are trapped, where you arereally held hostage by what is
going on and you are being hurtover and, over and over again
emotionally put down, physicallyput down or perhaps even
spiritually not being allowed topray, not being allowed to
honor your faith, not beingallowed to go with your
girlfriends or be in communitythose are all spiritual things.
(22:03):
It doesn't necessarily meanthat we need to go to a house of
worship.
Being with friends can actuallybe a wonderfully spiritual
thing.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
I think spirituality is different for everyone, right
, and it's the spirit ofcommunity.
Sometimes it's that network ofsupport and nothing frightens an
abusive person more than theirintended victim having other
people in their lives.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
And paying attention to others who are not that
abusive person.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
That's exactly right.
And so what ends up happeningto the spiritual world is your
community gets smaller andsmaller to the spiritual world
is your community gets smallerand smaller.
And those are signs.
And when you start missing yourfriends, if you find that
somehow your phone isn't workingor you can't find your cell
phone, things go missing and youthink you're losing your mind,
(22:57):
you're not.
Your mind and your brain reallyare intact, but there's this
predatory event that continuesto happen.
And when the spiritual, I feellike our spiritual health is so
vastly important.
And so when you finally beginto find a little bit of freedom,
(23:21):
where you're a little moreliberated, the first step I
would invite you to take is tobegin to dabble in meeting
friends, being in community,talking about things that don't
matter, even if it's just theweather.
Nobody needs to know the storyif you don't want to share it.
(23:42):
But also understand that everytime you tell one little aspect
of part of your story, whatyou're doing is you're telling
your brain.
You're not afraid of it, andyou may actually be opening a
door for someone who is stuck ina way that you have no idea
(24:03):
about.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
That's so insightful and I love the idea that by
talking about it, you're tellingyourself you're not afraid of
it.
Tell us a little bit more aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
So, as we were talking about anger and anxiety,
if you are not afraid of youranger and you allow yourself to
express it, then the anxietydissipates.
It is the same thing.
If you are not afraid and we,you know, women become very
afraid.
Even that that that collegeexperience I had I was really
(24:36):
afraid to even talk about itbecause was, was, was he going
to come after me?
And he ended up going back intoprison, this guy.
But was he going to come afterme somehow or send somebody
after me?
So I couldn't talk about it.
And when I finally began to sayokay, you know what, I'm going
to be brave enough to say yeah,I got so afraid one time I had
(24:59):
to create a string between mydoor and somebody else's door
and that's all I said.
I didn't have to say anythingelse.
But I I could feel some releasewithin my body and it was like
nothing happened.
And as the brain begins tolearn, okay, I'm still here, no
one's, no one's come and burstinto the door and told me that
(25:19):
I'm not supposed to speak, orlocked me in the bathroom, or
told me to stay in the darkcloset.
Okay, it's going to be okay.
And then the more you can sharewith someone who is a safe
person for you.
And I don't know what that isfor anyone.
It's going to be different foreveryone.
(25:41):
But to dare this is a daringdance.
To begin to share a little bitabout what you've experienced.
It opens up a world for yournervous system to not have to
hold it all.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Yeah, and it makes me think that you know, by by
talking about it when we'reready and with people that we
feel, create a safe space for us, those thoughts no longer
control us.
That's right.
That's right, we can releasethem and we can move on, and I
love that you shared thatstrategy with us.
I'd love to hear some otherstrategies that you might have,
(26:17):
other strategies that you mighthave, and if we can go back to
the anger and anxiety example,I'm sure a lot of people who
experience domestic abuse, eventhough they're being abused,
they have some anger right.
It can make you very angry andhave a lot of anxiety.
(26:38):
So let's talk about examples ofhow to release anger in a
healthy way in order to sootheanxiety.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
It's going to be different for everyone, sure, so
what works for one might notwork for another.
So, whatever, I suggest here toall of you that you know, all
of you who are listening, youknow, I want you to know, I see
you, I see you even though Idon't see you, and I hear you
even though I can't hear yourvoices, and I hold you in my
(27:09):
heart and sometimes, when thereis that, when there's anger, we
first need to even acknowledgeits presence and to even just
say I am angry is an exercise.
The next part of that is whereis my anger?
In my body?
And a lot of people it's intheir gut, and the gut is
(27:33):
there's ulcers, there's burping,there's bad breath, know teeth
that aren't doing well, and it'soften because of the gut.
And so if you've got like stuffthat's going on belly aches,
tummy aches a lot of timesthere's anger there.
And so to even put your handsand this is not like a out there
(27:58):
kind of exercise but just say,okay, you know anger, you might
be in my belly and when yougurgle, maybe that's anger.
And I'm just going to tell youthat I'm paying attention.
Because what do we want to do?
What often happens with angeris nope, I'm avoiding you at all
(28:19):
costs.
Nope, I am not looking at you,I'm not dealing with you.
And it could be the opposite.
All I'm going to do is feel myanxiety, because anxiety feels
easier than anger, and I didn'thappen to feel that anxiety was
easier than anger, but I alsocouldn't get to my anger.
(28:39):
So the anxiety was rampant.
And you know, anxiety is just.
You know, shaky hands, sweatypalms, dry mouth, hard to focus,
tapping feet, words that comeout sideways.
You know, I call it spaghettibrain.
It's almost like, cognitively,I'm just not thinking straight,
(29:00):
which is also part of theemotional hurt that happens for
people who are in domestic abusesituations.
There's this emotional braincognitive craziness that gives
you messages of am unworthy, Iam ugly, I didn't walk away, so
(29:29):
I am bad, and the goal is tocounter that.
So I am angry.
And instead of like anger, goaway, it's like yeah, you are
and you have every right to be,and to even say that, yeah, you
have every right to be.
And for some of you, writingabout your anger in a notebook
could be great.
For others, maybe it's hittinga pillow and saying I am so
(29:54):
angry.
For others it might be walking,exercise, I don't know.
There are these bands that youcan get and they're not
expensive at like a Dick's orlike a workout place, and there
are bands and sometimes when I'mworking with clients and also
with myself is I'll take thosebands and I'll just stretch them
(30:16):
and I'll say, okay, I'm angrybut I'm releasing.
I'm angry but I'm releasing.
And if you've got kids, thebands can actually be a
wonderful game and you play atug of war.
You're not asking your child toget in touch with their anger,
but what happens in a tug of war, and if you really play the tug
of war, well then they're goingto go and you're going to go
(30:39):
and you know, truly, in a gamelike that you're also releasing
the energy of anger.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Yeah, I can get the visual on that one as well.
I can just imagine so manydifferent systems are activated
in a game of tug of war,especially a friendly one, right
, yeah?
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Yeah, yeah, and so that friendly tug of war.
You're using your body, you'reusing your mind, you're using
all of your strength, and youknow what the intention is, mom.
But on the other hand, you knowit doesn't matter, because if
you're engaging with the child,you are doing a whole lot of
stuff.
You're engaging with them,you're concentrating on them,
(31:20):
you're also working on yourself.
You're making something into agame when maybe they haven't
even had that kind of contactwith you.
That's been like a game.
So it is finding other games.
It might be going and playinglike you know, a game on the
internet and that is, you know,not violent, but sometimes I've
(31:44):
found, like car races or, youknow, doing anything where there
might be a shared competition,could be really fun, because the
desire to win and that'sanother place where, if you
don't have the desire in a gamelike that to win and I'm not
talking about like when you'replaying with your kids,
necessarily, but just like Iwant to do this, that's letting
(32:07):
you know the grief is there,because I think that we can be a
good competitive and that'sabout life, it's about like, oh,
I want to win Takes a certainenergy.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
It does and it kind of is a validation of wanting to
be alive and participate inhumanity.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
That's right.
That's right.
And it's not I want to beatsomeone, but it's wanting to win
for the self.
And that's talking to the brain.
I was talking to theforefathers of polyvagal theory,
to the brain.
I was talking to theforefathers of polyvagal theory,
stephen Porges, and he reallytalks about the nervous system.
And I said so you know what'sgoing on, you know in sexual
(32:50):
violence and domestic violencewhat's happening?
And he said it's the brainstem.
And I then took it a stepfurther, because the brainstem
really communicates to ourentire body and when the
brainstem kind of dies, there'sno communication or aliveness to
the rest of the body.
So what we want to do is sayknock, knock on the brainstem,
(33:13):
knock, knock, knock.
Are you there and say, okay,come on, come out, let's
reinvigorate you.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeah, that's another interesting analogy and a good
visual of you know.
Just, I think after grief thereis life, but there will always
be a little bit of grief in lifethere is.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
There's a little bit of grief.
But you know, without pain Idon't really think we have
growth.
Now I'm not talking aboutdomestic abuse, pain I wouldn't
wish that on anyone but justlife's ups and downs and the
topsy-turviness of course youknow, and the pain that your
listeners have had.
(33:53):
No one should ever experiencethis kind of pain.
No one, no one, no one.
Pain no one, no one, no one.
And it doesn't mean you have toremain in it.
And what we know during you knowwhat happens if someone is
repeatedly hit in the head is itreally does affect how we think
(34:14):
and it really does affect howyou know those neural pathways
and do you have the power tochange and shift those neural
pathways?
Absolutely.
And what we know is that you'vegot the power to do that by
acknowledging your negativecognitions, which we mentioned
earlier, and instead of sayingI'm going to just stay in this
(34:35):
judgment of myself, to say youknow what I can do this
differently.
Yes, I feel this way.
And there's another way that Ican think about this One.
If you're even listening to this, you're already ahead of the
game.
If you're in a safe house,you're already ahead of the game
.
If you're in a group withsurvivalists.
(34:56):
You're already.
You're doing it.
If you take one step in frontof the other and you're still
living in the situation thatyou're in and you are not
finding a way to get out, andyou're listening to this, you're
getting to a place where it'sgoing to feel okay enough for
you to get the help you need.
(35:16):
And those are all strategies ofself-talk.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Yeah, there are some really great strategies in some
of your trainings, in your book,in your website.
I also noticed that sometimesyou work with archetypes which
I'm not real familiar.
I mean, I'm familiar enoughwith them, but not in depth, and
so I'd love to know how thoseare helpful or important in
healing and moving forward, andwould they work for, let's say,
(35:44):
victims of domestic violence.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
So yes, let me answer the last question first.
They would absolutely work withpeople who have lived with
domestic violence, absolutely.
However, the archetypes aregood, really, for anyone, it's
all people.
Archetypes are non-binary.
(36:07):
Even when they're binary,they're non-binary, and I say
that because, if we think, letme define what an archetype is,
oh, that would be helpful.
Yes, do that, okay.
So why don't we just talk aboutthat?
So an archetype is a termdeveloped by a Jungian
psychologist.
His name is Carl Jung, jungianCarl Jung, and it's spelled in a
(36:30):
really weird way, in case youwant to look it up J-U-N-G.
J-u-n-g is his last name, name,and he saw that we have symbols
and we have relationships withroles that, no matter where
(36:52):
you're from, no matter what yoursocioeconomic background, no
matter what you know, it doesn'tmatter that we all understand
certain terms or certain rolesthat we have or people we've met
.
So if I say mother, no matterwhat language I'm speaking it in
, everyone knows what that wordmeans.
(37:13):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
So mother would be an archetype right Mother is an
archetype.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
So when we think of mother, father, king, queen,
those are archetypes, and withinevery archetype, these
collective symbols that we allrelate to, there's the good part
of the archetype, and thenthere is what is called the
shadow.
The good archetype is like thegood mother, the good king, the
(37:40):
good father, and there are somany, many archetypes that can
be part of a conversation.
So the good mother is reallythe good enough mother in the
archetype.
That archetype of the goodmother is someone who's caring
and loving, someone who shows up, someone who nurtures someone
(38:00):
and for everyone.
What that archetype might becould be different, but the
shadow is really the darker sideof the mother the mother that
held neglect, the mother thatwas abusive, the mother that is
cruel, the mother that isjudgmental, and so we have two
different aspects of mother,father and all of these other
(38:24):
archetypes.
What the archetype allowsanyone to do, and if we're
talking about to all of you herein this audience that it is a
way to say okay, so I know thatI want to be more like the good
mother archetype, but sometimesI go into that shadow place and
(38:46):
my mother was that shadow inthat shadow place, and what it
allows is a projection.
It gives you some distance fromtalking from the eye per se and
just saying, oh, within thisarchetype I recognize some parts
of myself and I recognize thedarker sides of myself, and the
(39:07):
shadow is what we don't want tolook at and we kind of enter
into a space with those aspectsof that archetype, the darker
side.
Archetype, the darker side, andwe grapple with it, we talk to
it, we understand it, we try tounderstand how it might
interrupt us from our ownhappiness or from being the
(39:32):
mother, or engendering themother that we would like to own
within ourselves.
And sometimes in survivalistsof domestic violence, what I
find is that often they haven'tincorporated the good mother,
not that they're not goodmothers, but maybe they didn't
(39:54):
feel their own good mother, andso the archetype allows them to
understand what even is a goodmother.
I didn't know that maybe a goodmother would feed me or make my
bed or share her bed with me ifwe didn't have two beds, or
(40:14):
keep me safe.
I didn't understand that, andso what the archetypes
conversation allows us to do isperhaps see what these different
roles are, and the morepositive and the darker side, so
that we can perhaps understandourselves through them.
I'll tell you the story.
So I had terrible anxiety.
(40:36):
I had such bad anxiety that Iwas agoraphobic and I couldn't
even leave my house.
That's how bad my anxiety was.
Now, was this before yourhusband died or after?
Experienced was a verydifferent anxiety.
But once the brain touches onagoraphobia and the inability to
(41:02):
leave one's house, it'smasterful at stealing your soul
and stealing your freedom, and Iwas truly held hostage by it.
It wasn't my languaging backthen, but it is now Anyway.
So I was going to therapy threedays a week.
The man I was living with wastaking me to his therapist.
I could barely walk down aflight of stairs without my
(41:26):
pulse going to 180 beats perminute.
I kid you not.
I kid you not.
I ended up in more ERs in NewYork City.
I know all of them veryintimately because I kept
thinking I was having a heartattack at 23.
And it was just horrific.
So after about a year I startedto venture out.
(41:50):
It was not easy.
I was able to walk down a flightof stairs and one of the few
first forays onto a subway, Ihad gone into the city.
I was living in Brooklyn, I wentinto the city, so it's about a
20-minute ride, 25-minute ridefrom Brooklyn, where I was
living, to the city, new YorkCity, and then I was taking the
subway back and it was the timewhere chains were stolen and so
(42:15):
I was counting because mytherapist told me to count that
while I was on the train, to tryto get my mind off of what I
was, where I wanted to go, whichwas the anxiety and the panic
and feeling like I couldn'tbreathe.
I was on the train and I wascounting and then, all of a
sudden, this very tall man grabsmy neck and my chain around my
(42:38):
neck and I looked at him and Iswore and I said don't you
effing dare.
I grabbed his wrist.
Now I was two stops away fromwhere I needed to get off, and
me walking was never an option,but I got off the train at the
next stop was never an option,but I got off the train at the
(43:04):
next stop.
It stopped him and my anxietywas gone and I thought, oh my
God, wow, it was the distillingof the anger that actually
interrupted the anxiety and Iwalked home and, for the first
time in a year and a half, Ifelt free.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
That's incredible.
I have the chills.
I felt free.
Wow, I'm so grateful to hearthat story from you and I have
to ask you any idea what broughton the agoraphobia for you?
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Yeah, I was.
I'd left home when I was 17.
And actually I went away toschool when I was 15 because I
really couldn't be in the house.
It wasn't apparently an unsafehouse, but it was an unsafe
house for me, and so I returnedfor a couple of months and then
(43:58):
I left.
Mm-hmm, I loved to travel, andthen my parents were always at
each other and I was the onethat my mom went to, so I was
(44:23):
the one she confided in and toldher truths to, and part of me
needing to get out was being inthat role of surrogate, and I
couldn't really handle itanymore.
So I told them that if theywanted through some really great
therapy, they wanted to see methey needed to come and see me
(44:43):
separately because I didn't wantto be triangulated any longer.
Right?
So, 23 years old, my mom comesto visit and we go out to dinner
and she begins like justranting about things at home and
I really couldn't take itanymore.
And instead of really gettingangry with her, the anger turned
(45:06):
inward, I believe, and we werein a very, very tall building
having dinner and I looked ather and I said I'm not going to
be able to get down.
I can't get down, I can't getinto that elevator.
I don't know, maria, what hitme.
I don't know what changed in mybrain in that moment, but all I
can tell you it was as if theAchilles tendon snapped in my
(45:28):
brain and she literally had todrag me into that elevator.
We went down 66 floors and fromthat point forward, once I
landed in my apartment, I said Ican't get out.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
So you were kind of trapped in yourself for about a
year until you were able to letyour anger out.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
That's right.
The saddest part of the story,I think, is that my mom they
lived in Chicago left.
So I called the guy I wasdating.
I'd been dating him for threeweeks and I called him and I
said I need help and he came andhe moved in and he took care of
me.
Wow, she left.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
That's a lot for a young woman.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Yeah, but that's why I do the work I do.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
I'm so proud of you.
Thank you, I'm so proud of you.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
I am so proud of you telling us about that experience
You've had so many of them andyour recovery, and I just I
admire your strength, becausethe stories are important, you
know, and it's like, okay, Icome here and you know, I look,
I can talk about all of thisstuff and I have a healthy
(46:40):
distance from them, but it's notthat they don't walk with me
and they're not in every pieceof what I do.
Yeah, and I may not have cutson my back or on my arms or
across my face, but they're inmy heart.
I understand that arms or acrossmy face, but they're in my
heart.
I understand that.
(47:01):
I think the stories areimportant, you know, and to
understand that just because I'ma clinician and a therapist and
you know I went back to schooland whatever that, I come here
with my wounds.
They're just not showing, butthey express themselves by
helping others.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
When we were talking earlier, you mentioned a new
project that you're working on.
Tell us about that, sure.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
So I, as you know and I don't know that your audience
knows this, that we've touchedon it I'm writing a new book
called right now it's a workingtitle, so nobody hold me to this
, okay.
Okay, you're not being held toit it's called the sexual grief
effect from loathing toliberation to love, and it's
really self-loathing toliberation to self-love.
(47:48):
And you know, so often whenthere's any kind of a predatory
event, it really holds ushostage and it's it creates this
kind of self-loathing ordisgust or shame.
And what I'm working on isteaching people how to become
more liberated from kind of ahostage situation that they find
(48:11):
themselves in right.
And then get to self-love, whichis hard.
We don't really know what loveis and sometimes we don't even
know how it feels or what theexperience of it is, when it
might even be right in front ofus.
And so that's the book, and I'minviting people to become part
of the Sexual Grief Project,whether it's you want to share
(48:33):
your stories, and they can bepart of the book, or not.
Or you just want to share yourstories, and they can be part of
the book or not, or you justwant to share your stories, and
what I am going to be doing inthe next few months is once a
sub stack, a free sub stack,where people can come in and
(48:58):
read articles about alldifferent things around grief,
around sexual grief, aroundfreeing the hostage, around
hostage techniques andstrategies, and just learning a
lot about becoming part of thisproject.
That will grow legs becauseyou're talking about it and it's
(49:22):
called the Sexual Grief Project.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
That sounds so interesting.
I mean, I'd love to have youcome back in a couple of months,
or even a couple of years, andlet us know more about that.
I look forward to reading thebook.
I love talking with you andlearning from you.
Tell us your website before Ilet you go.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
Certainly so.
It's edy, E-D-Y, N-A-T-H-A-N,ednathancom and sexualgriefcom.
So those are the two websites.
Edie, thanks so much for beingon the show.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
Thank you so much.
It was a pleasure.
Genesis Women's Shelter andSupport exists to give women in
abusive situations a way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence, and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
(50:17):
domestic violence.
You can learn more atGenesisShelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
Genesis Women's Shelter, and onX at Genesis Shelter.
The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, 7 days
a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.
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