February 10, 2025 • 44 mins
Ever wondered how those who help others manage their own well-being amidst the chaos? Licensed professional counselor Aubrey Richardson joins us to share her journey from researcher at Johns Hopkins University to providing care in clinical settings across Texas. She highlights her mission, focusing on helping therapists, caregivers, and healthcare professionals navigate the challenges of perfectionism, people-pleasing, and burnout, particularly as amplified by the shared trauma of the COVID-19 pandemic. Aubrey's approach emphasizes holistic healing and advocates for a balanced life in a world that often glorifies relentless hustle.
The conversation takes a thoughtful exploration into the evolving landscape for healthcare professionals in a post-pandemic world, where mental health services face soaring demand. We shine a light on the necessity for healers themselves to seek therapy, with a significant percentage doing so at some point in their careers. Aubrey and I delve into the timeless nature of the therapeutic role and the profound responsibility that comes with supporting others through their darkest times. We also discuss the signs that indicate someone might benefit from therapy, underscoring the importance of connection and the therapeutic alliance.
The episode takes a compassionate turn as we examine professional burnout, vicarious trauma, and their symptoms, such as chronic lateness and hypervigilance. Aubrey offers insights into the systemic changes needed to address these issues, stressing that self-care alone cannot suffice. The conversation concludes with an empowering spotlight on Genesis Women's Shelter and Support, highlighting their pivotal role in combating domestic violence. Listen in to discover strategies for supporting those on the front lines, while also fostering a culture of care and understanding within the mental health profession.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Talk therapy is in high demand, but when the
therapist needs someone to talkto, who does she call?
Licensed professional counselorAubrey Richardson is here today
and shares her practice to helptherapists, helping
professionals and caregiversrecover from people-pleasing,
perfectionism and overachieving,without feeling selfish.
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis the podcast, and this is
(00:23):
Genesis the podcast.
Aubrey Richardson is a licensedprofessional counselor in Texas
with a passion for caring forthose on the front lines.
She graduated from JohnsHopkins University with a
clinical mental healthcounseling degree in 2019.
Aubrey has worked at all levelsof care at various psychiatric
(00:44):
rehabilitation facilities,including inpatient units,
partial hospitalization programs, and was the adult intensive
outpatient programmingcoordinator at Texas Health
Behavioral Health Dallas.
After seeing the effects ofburnout and vicarious trauma on
fellow clinicians, she pursuedopening her private practice.
(01:04):
Trauma on fellow clinicians shepursued opening her private
practice.
Currently, aubrey is the ownerand operator of Sage Holistic
Counseling and specializes inworking with other therapists,
helpers and caregivers torecover from perfectionism,
people-pleasing andoverachieving.
She is passionate about helpingher therapy seekers
holistically address the mindand body as well as challenge
the dominant narrative aroundhustle culture.
(01:26):
When Aubrey is not working,she's an active member of Beta
Kappa Beta, the Dallas areaalumni organization for Alpha
Chi Omega sorority and is anactive member of the Alliance
Board for Genesis Women'sShelter and Support Aubrey.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I'm so excited to be here I am so excited to learn
from you today because you and Ijust met, like just like a week
ago I think it's just been aweek since we were introduced
and we really had a greatconversation about the work that
we're doing at Genesis and howit, you know, kind of is similar
to the work that you're doingin your practice, and we also
(02:08):
have in common you and I wefigured out that we're
recovering people pleasers andmaybe perfectionists.
Yeah.
So if you, listening, are apeople pleaser or a
perfectionist or an overachieveror you're just stinking tired
today, you're in really goodcompany.
So listen along as we learnabout how a therapist sometimes
(02:31):
needs a therapist.
I am very intrigued about thework you are doing to support
therapists with therapy, becauseat Genesis we have so many
helping professionals, fromlicensed social workers and
professional counselors toadvocates, attorneys and so many
others, and it's kind of likeeveryone who works at Genesis is
some level of a helpingprofessional.
(02:54):
Even if you're not directlyworking with clients, you're
working for the mission thatsupports them.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
All of these folks, all of these positions, whether
at Genesis or elsewhere,including yourself, do a lot of
folks, all of these positions,whether a Genesis or elsewhere,
including yourself, do a lot ofgood, despite all of the trauma
that is involved, for the peoplethat they help.
So, while it makes sense to methat a therapist might need
their own professional to talkwith, I'm curious how you got
started in this work and who areyour typical clients in this
(03:27):
work and who are your typicalclients?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yes, I always knew that I wanted to be in the
therapy space.
I just wasn't really quite surewhat that was going to look
like.
In a previous life I actuallystarted out on the research side
of things.
So I started my journey inresearch.
I was working on a study atJohns Hopkins helping folks with
serious mental illness loseweight and quit smoking to
(03:48):
improve their cardiovascularrisk factors Wow, and I loved
sitting in the psych rehabprograms.
I loved sitting with the folks.
I love talking to them andhearing their story and I
absolutely despised going backto the office and having to put
data into Excel spreadsheets forsix hours of my day.
(04:08):
So pretty quickly I knew that Ineeded to shift sides of where
I was, so I applied for amaster's program.
I got into my master's programat Johns Hopkins and had that
concentration in clinical mentalhealth counseling.
I no longer live in Maryland,so it turns out that the snow is
(04:33):
not for me.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
I'm a native Texan, so I'm not built, yeah me either
.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Yeah, not built for that weather.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
And so I came back to Texas and I started working in
the inpatient unit Texas and Istarted working in the inpatient
unit personal hospitalizationand intensive outpatient
programs at Texas Health, dallashere, and I spent a few years
working there and I met so manyincredible clinicians who were
so passionate and so good atwhat they did and they were so
(05:00):
burned out Wow.
And I couldn't figure out.
I was like, wow, I'm in thistotally different state, right,
like I'm in a totally differentsetting and I'm noticing the
same thing.
There's all these incrediblepeople, highly talented, very
capable, so crispy burnt out,wow.
And then I started this otherjob in a private practice.
(05:20):
So now I'm in a differentsetting and I started in this
private practice of March 2020.
So COVID hit and it was thefirst time in recent history
that therapists and clients weregoing through the same thing at
the same time and there wasthis influx of folks who were
(05:43):
nurses, who were doctors, whowere on the front lines, who
started coming in either for thefirst time or returning to
therapy.
Right, and I was like these aremy people, these are people I
connect with.
I know them, I've been there,I've lived this life and I
haven't looked back, since I'vejust continued to specialize and
(06:05):
really hone in on helpers,healers and caregivers.
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
I mean, that really is a kind of a new twist on
something coming out of thepandemic that was actually good
and helpful to not just to youbut to a lot of other people.
Let's try to get a baselinedefinition of what a caregiver
is versus a helping professionaland so on.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
To me, the difference between a caregiver and a
helping professional is justwhether or not this person is
paid for their labor.
So a caregiver can be someonewho is taking care of elderly
parents or taking care of smallchildren Maybe their spouse is
someone who is chronically illor going through cancer
treatments they're inrelationships with someone who
(06:52):
is active in their addictionversus a helping professional is
someone whose income andlivelihood depends on them
helping people every day.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Okay, I kind of thought that was the distinction
, but I wanted just to be reallysure what we were talking about
.
So I don't necessarily have tobe a therapist to come and work
with you as my therapist, youknow, if I'm taking care of an
elderly parent and I don't haveto be burned out either, right,
can just be kind of need someoneto help you make sense of
(07:23):
things.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yes, most people are going to fall into that category
.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Yeah, so let's talk about the issues that they are
facing that are unique to thesespecific roles.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Let's do it.
Let's talk about these veryunique pain points that
therapists points thattherapists, healers, helpers,
caregivers experience.
In my experience, one of thebiggest pain points is that
their work is fundamentallyundervalued.
The work is invisible or seenas like oh, this is just part of
(07:59):
your personality, this is whatyou do, this is part of your
role, and these are professionsthat tend to be lower paid for
the same or more education thanother industries.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Right or not paid at all if you're a caregiver.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Correct or it's totally unpaid labor that you
are providing.
There's also this pain point ofholding emotional space for
other people all day long.
You may talk to people all day,eight hours a day, but your job
is to keep the focus on theother person and that takes an
(08:40):
incredible toll on someone.
We're also seeing that theemotional space that we're
having to hold are for clients,therapy seekers, who are going
through more acute and crisissituations.
So people are coming in withmore intense symptoms, more
severe, just more complex thingsthat are going on and
(09:01):
especially if you are thishelper, healer, caregiver, there
can be this stigma that youshould already know what to do,
that you should already have allof the answers in your head and
you should be able to figure itout by yourself About yourself.
Yes, about yourself Right, andit is so untrue that we're
supposed to already have all ofthe answers.
But there's that stigma of Idon't want to like admit that
(09:25):
maybe.
I tell other people all daylong that they need to take care
of themselves, but I have areally hard time taking care of
myself.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Something that I'm also noticing and that's gotten
more prevalent over time, ishaving to balance the
ever-changing and quicklychanging laws with your ethical
mandates and the mission of yourorganization, and trying to
balance those things out.
A lot of the times, if the lawsand the ethics are not aligned,
(09:53):
you have to make that ethicaldecision, you have to use some
sort of decision-making model,and you may be in the situation
where your license may bejeopardized, right If you break
the law.
Can you give us an?
Speaker 1 (10:06):
example.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Sure.
So if I have a client thatcomes in and is seeking
particular healthcare servicesthat are not allowed in this
state, do I report them, as ismandated by Texas law, or do I
help them receive those servicesother places?
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Wow, I mean, that is, I hadn't even really put that
together.
But yes, I hear what you'resaying, that can be extremely
challenging on so many levels.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
And if your license is your livelihood, if that is
tied to your 401k, if that istied to your savings, your own
healthcare, is that somethingthat you're really able to put
at risk?
Right, you know people haveinvested significant time and
money into getting theirlicenses Absolutely and having
to weigh right those pros andcons of like I don't have that
(10:58):
privilege of like yeah, it'sokay if they take my license
away.
You know that's my livelihood.
There's also been this whiplashthat I've noticed in my folks
related to COVID-19, that for solong all of these helpers and
healers, healthcareprofessionals, were seen as like
healthcare heroes and now thatmessaging is totally gone.
(11:18):
I was working in the hospitalwhen COVID hit and all of a
sudden there was this bigsparkly sign outside that said
like thank you, healthcareheroes.
And people were like droppingoff dinners and lunches and
gifts from all of thesebusinesses and you're like, oh,
wow, like people are reallyrecognizing my contribution and
(11:41):
that has gone away so quicklyand that leaves folks feeling
really confused and reallydisappointed and really again
that the work feels undervaluedand not as important with the
increased red tape and thebureaucracy of navigating broken
(12:06):
systems like healthcare, likeinsurance, where you're having
to do more administrative tasksthat don't align with providing
any sort of patient care.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
This is such an undertaking and so necessary it
sounds.
You know that you or someoneneeds to be there for people who
are always there for others,and I have to wonder then how
common is it for a therapist ora helping professional to really
need their own therapist?
Speaker 2 (12:38):
I am so excited to answer this question, oh good,
okay, so there's two.
There's two pieces that I wantto really highlight, and the
first is that it's verydifficult to capture data on
this, but the best estimates arethat somewhere between 60 to
80% of folks in the helpingprofessions are in therapy.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
At one time or another.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Sure, yes, at one time or another, but again, it's
hard to capture that data.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Just privacy, hipaa, stigma, all that sort of
contributing factors yeah sure,I didn't think that there was a
big study on it, so much as justwondering if it's.
You know.
We could even look at this on avery hyper local level and say,
hey, what's the stream ofpeople coming to your practice?
You know what I mean.
(13:24):
Are you booked every day?
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Oh, I am booked.
I am full.
People need help.
Especially after the COVID-19pandemic, the demand for mental
health care has increased atleast two and a half times what
we were seeing before thepandemic.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Oh, absolutely.
And beyond the pandemic, thesociety we live in, the rhetoric
that we need to deal with dayin and day out, it's enough to
make anyone feel like they needsomeone to talk to.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Life is hard and it's only going to get harder.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Said the therapist.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Said the therapist yeah, absolutely, life is hard.
Life is hard and we're notsupposed to go through this life
by ourselves.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
We're supposed to be in community.
I think it's important to beable to say out loud and just
acknowledge life is hard.
I think even that can just be astep to say it's hard, this was
hard, this day was hard and Ican't take it anymore.
Whether or not you end up goingto talk to a therapist is, you
know, a different story.
But acknowledging how you feelI think is really important into
(14:28):
being honest with yourself andwith others.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Absolutely 100%.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
So I mean at Genesis, like I said, we have a lot of
professionals working withsurvivors of domestic violence
and I fully understand the needfor these professionals and
professionals like you as well.
I mean, these are reallyimportant jobs and they're
critical.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
But learning about the trauma or the business of
trauma makes me wonder how theseprofessions can be attractive
to anyone when the work can beso hard these professions these
helpers, healers, caregiversthere are good days at work and
there are bad days at work, justlike any other job, any other
(15:12):
nine to five corporate job.
The difference is that our gooddays and our bad days tend to
look very different.
Hmm, on our good days, we havethe opportunity to see the
incredible hope, the incredibleresiliency in human beings and
(15:32):
the ability for folks to makeand sustain change, and that is
a beautiful thing that peoplevery few people get to witness.
Who is in this business oftrauma.
You may be the only person insomeone's life who gets to hear
the full story.
They get to know what is reallyhappening, what is really going
(15:53):
on for this person in theirhead and in their heart.
It is a gift and a privilege tohear someone's story.
Being a therapist is my highestprivilege that I've ever
experienced and probably willever experience Therapists and
(16:14):
helpers.
We are wounded healers ourselves, and so we have this immense
capacity to tap into our ownexperience and offer this deep
empathy, to build thisrelationship with another person
that is incredibly healing,that they may have never
experienced a safe relationshiplike this in their life.
And this profession of healing,whatever that may look like,
has been around across time andspace.
(16:36):
It's been present in everyculture for as long as we know.
It just looks different now.
Folks have always turned tospiritual advisors.
They have turned to shamans.
Now therapy just looks verydifferent.
Right, it is very professional,it's very structured, but
healing has always beenhappening in our communities.
(16:59):
It's been happening for as longas people have been
experiencing tough days, whichhas been as long as you know
beginning of time.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yeah, I think you hit on something else really
important there, and that isthis sense of community and how
healing it can be just to have aconnection with another human
being and feel that you are partof something larger than
yourself or what's happening toyou.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yes, the relationship between therapist and therapy
seeker.
That relationship is the numberone determinant of how
effective the therapy is goingto be.
It is more important than thespecific modality that you were
using.
It is all about therelationship that you build.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Yeah, I think I could see that Having a connection
with someone is critical tobeing able to maintain this
relationship.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
We are hurt in relationships and we heal in
relationships.
You're very wise, Aubrey.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Let's talk about when someone should really kind of
look up and think about talkingto a therapist.
What are some of the signs thatone might need a therapist?
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I have many, many blog posts written about this,
of when it is time to see atherapist, and there are
definitely some signs that youneed to look out for in yourself
and that, again in community,we should be looking out for in
our peers, our coworkers and ourfriends, Because sometimes we
don't necessarily notice what ishappening.
(18:32):
What we tend to see is that yougive too much of yourself and
there's just nothing left at theend of the day.
Healers and helpers can beemotional sponges and we just
take in all of these feelingsand thoughts from other people
and we give everything that wehave and, at the end of the day,
we are just exhausted.
(18:53):
We are sitting in our carsoutside of our homes scrolling
on social media before we goinside.
We are sitting in the dark,just sitting in the silence,
because that's the first timewe've had it all day.
You know, just sitting in thesilence because that's the first
time we've had it all day.
Yeah, we are tired and that isa really good sign that it is
it's time to call a therapist.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Yeah, I think that sounds about right to me, and
tired can be just emotionallydrained not physically tired.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Yes, if you are sleeping seven, eight hours a
night and waking up and you'restill exhausted, that's not
physical exhaustion, that'semotional exhaustion that is
really coming through.
And we see this guilt of.
I quote should be able to givemore, I should be able to do
more, and we act as if we'resuper human, and we're not.
We are only human beings.
(19:45):
We have limits.
We can only do so much in a day, and when we start to feel like
we're not giving enough, thatcan be a sign that burnout is
looming and again it may be timeto call a therapist.
I think those are kind of thebig, big signs to start looking
out for.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
So I just want to double back and remind people
that Aubrey has a great blog onher website and it includes one
blog post specifically about thesigns that the therapist may
need a therapist and it's notscary at all, right, I mean,
it's not like red flags.
Morning signs, like you know,turn back, now dead end.
(20:24):
It is very thoughtfullyprepared and I hope you'll go
and take a look at it after thisshow.
What is the website, aubrey?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
It is sageholisticcounselingcom slash
shc-blog, and you can see all ofmy blog posts there.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Okay, yeah, it's all really good.
I personally have read some ofthe blogs and I really enjoyed
it.
So let's say we're in therapyfor you know, just dealing with
some emotional burnout issues orwhatever, and or trying to
overcome this overachiever lifeor career that we've established
for ourselves.
Is there an end point totherapy or does?
(21:01):
Is it continual?
What do you typically see?
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yes, yes to all things Perfectionism,
people-pleasing, overachieving.
These tend to be the overtpresentations of underlying
anxiety and trauma.
So there is absolutely a timeand a place where someone needs
(21:25):
to be in active therapy to takecare of themselves, and that may
look more like weekly sessionswith the therapist, but I'm
going to give a little bit of ahot take here.
Okay, that I truly believe thatif you are a therapist, if you
are actively offering healing toanother person, then you should
(21:46):
be in therapy always.
How often you see yourtherapist, what kind of modality
you're doing, what you'retalking about may change over
time, but I am a true believerthat therapists should also be
in therapy.
So there is no you know endpoint where it's like ah,
today's the day Like I havereached healing, Like there's no
(22:08):
more work to do.
I, you know I am perfectlyhealed and, you know, totally
recovered from my peoplepleasing and all of my
overachieving.
That's not realistic.
But there are days where youcan say you know what I have
reached, like my initial goals,I'm feeling better, I'm ready to
take maybe a step back toseeing someone less frequently.
(22:29):
But I truly believe that alltherapists should be in therapy.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really interesting
take on the whole issue and Ithink it's a healthy approach.
That doesn't mean there aren'tother ways to do it that aren't
equally as healthy.
I think kind of, in a way, whatyou're saying is put make time
for yourself, put yourself firstand really just you know kind
(22:55):
of make sure that you're okay.
It's the whole oxygen maskanalogy right, and you really do
need to have yours on firstbefore you can ever help anybody
else.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Doctors, other doctors, when they're sick,
chiropractors cannot adjustthemselves Right.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
We have to take care of ourselves.
I was just thinking aboutstylists.
They can't really do their ownhair.
Yeah, you can't cut your ownhair.
I mean, I know my stylist is.
She does not cut her own hair.
If you're listening, Kelly,you're the best and you're not
allowed to leave me.
So okay, let's then talk aboutsomething we touched on
(23:35):
throughout this conversation sofar what is emotional burnout,
what are the signs and whatsteps should we take to manage
it?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yes, let's get into it.
Okay.
So emotional burnout can looklike depression and anxiety, but
it has this very systemic pieceto the burnout.
So we love to say you know,individuals have a problem with
burnout, but burnout solving,burnout is really about changing
(24:05):
the systems, because the systemis demanding too much of one
person.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
But I don't know that I fully understand what burnout
means.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yes, so burnout is this level where we are too much
is going out and not enough iscoming in.
So we start to see that we arefalling behind on tasks.
We are maybe chronically lateto work and it doesn't have to
be.
You know, I'm 30 minutes lateto work every day but we are
(24:35):
showing up later and later overtime.
We are more cynical, we aremore sarcastic, we are not as
committed to the things that weused to be really excited and
passionate about.
We are not experiencing thesame level of joy from things
that previously brought us joy.
(24:55):
We tend to see that folks usemore sick days, that they're
starting to see more physicalmanifestations of stress, like
headaches, neck aches, stomachaches that may prevent them to
coming into work, aches, stomachaches that may prevent them to
coming into work.
We're seeing anger, frustrationand irritability.
(25:16):
That is not characteristic ofthat person and is typically not
proportional to whatever ishappening.
We're seeing that chronicexhaustion where it's not
getting better with sleep andrest and we're starting to see
more unhelpful coping skills.
So, instead of like calling afriend after work, maybe we are
spending too much money, maybewe start drinking too much or
maybe we start avoiding things.
(25:37):
So that's an emotional burnout.
It can look like depression andanxiety, but it is related to
too many demands on one person.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Gotcha, Okay, so you were.
Then you were answering thequestion what are the signs?
And I don't think we got to thepart about what steps should we
take to manage it.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Yes.
So I want to be so clear thatwe cannot just self-care our way
out of burnout and vicarioustrauma.
There are things that we can dopreventatively to make it less
likely to happen and we alwayswant to focus on that prevention
(26:20):
over the remediation.
So the things that we can do tomanage and prevent it are to
try to balance our caseload.
So if I'm a therapist, it's notgoing to go very well for me if
I am putting eight clients onmy schedule back to back, all
who are experiencing incredibleamounts of, like, active trauma.
(26:41):
That's not going to go well forme.
Over time, right Schedulingbreaks in our day, making sure
that we are eating lunch,getting adequate supervision,
getting adequate support in case, consultation from our peers
and coworkers, being able to sethealthy boundaries for
ourselves at work and at home,living more of your life outside
(27:03):
of work, really focusing onthose things that bring you joy
and give you that nourishmentand rejuvenation that you you
know that makes you like, wantto get up in the morning and
like.
I'm excited for this thing.
But we also have to focus onthe systemic environmental
changes.
You cannot heal environmentsthat get you sick.
(27:25):
So we can do you know all theself-care things.
But if we are still trying tosee too many clients in a day,
it's not going to get better.
If we are still trying tonavigate, you know there not
being enough therapists, youknow we can't self-care our way
(27:45):
out of a situation where mostplaces are going to be
understaffed and underfunded.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Yes, I can see that.
I think you were really smartto say that we cannot self-care
our way out of emotional burnout.
It's kind of a turning point ora tipping point, if you will.
So if you start seeing thosewarning signs a little bit
earlier or you take action alittle bit earlier, maybe you
can prevent it going too deeplyinto the burnout and, you know,
(28:16):
work your way back out of it andhopefully address some of that
anxiety and depression, becauseyou said something really
interesting about howperfectionism is really the
underlying depression andanxiety.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yes, it's the overt presentation of the underlying
anxiety and trauma.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah, I find that really interesting because I
would have never thought of thatI'm not a therapist and I would
have never thought that alljust anxiety right could cause
or manifest in so many differentways that are then so harmful
to you as an individual.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
The things that were really helpful to us when we
were in really difficultsituations may not be as helpful
to us now that we are out ofthat really difficult or
traumatic situation.
People-pleasing is another wordfor fawning, which we know is
you know, fight, flight, freezeand fawn.
(29:16):
Those are the four things andso that can be really helpful
when we're in a traumaticsituation, to help keep us safe,
to anticipate the reactions ofother people.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yeah, exactly when we're not in that situation.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
It can be way more harmful to us.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
And I think, as women , a lot of us were raised to be
people pleasers.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
We are socialized to be that way.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Yeah, we want people to be happy and we want them to
be happy with us.
I mean, I don't really care ifpeople aren't happy with me.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
There's that recovering people, pleaser yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
I'm good.
I'm good now.
You want to be angry, do it onyour own time.
But moving on to others, not me.
This show is not about me.
Let's talk about vicarioustrauma.
How does that manifest and whatare some tools for dealing with
it?
Speaker 2 (30:04):
So vicarious trauma manifests like PTSD
post-traumatic stress disorder.
Whereas emotional burnoutpresents closer to anxiety and
depression, vicarious trauma isgoing to present closer to PTSD.
What is different about it isthat the person who experiences
vicarious trauma is not theperson who experienced the
(30:24):
trauma.
So you may still get flashbacksfrom the event as if you were
the one that experienced it.
You may have intrusive thoughtsand memories or thoughts that
you don't want.
You're trying not to thinkabout the event.
You may have really physicalmanifestations, like your heart
may start to race.
(30:44):
You might feel sweaty andclammy.
You may have nightmares as thehealer and the helper.
You may start to avoid anyreminders of that trauma.
You may feel really detachedfrom people, places and things
that you love.
You may startle very easy, likeif someone comes up behind you.
You may have a really largestartle reaction, again
(31:06):
disproportionate to thesituation.
You may be hypervigilant, justalways scanning the environment,
kind of double checking,everything being really overly
attuned to the environment.
And again you may see thatpiece of being more irritable
and more angry.
That just isn't characteristicof that person.
And if you are experiencingvicarious trauma, everything we
(31:30):
talked about applies right, likethe earlier you see it, the
better it's going to be in termsof outcome and how long it's
going to take to recover fromthat.
But this is a situation thatwould be pretty severe and I
would recommend, if someone isexperiencing these PTSD-like
symptoms, that they doimmediately seek care.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
That's also good advice.
Now we're talking a lot aboutthe negative of being a
caregiver or helpingprofessional or a therapist
yourself.
When you're working with theseclients, do they ever discover
or rediscover the joys orpurpose of their work, despite
all the challenges or vicarioustrauma?
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Yes, absolutely.
These are like the best days asa, as a therapist, when your
clients are like things are somuch better and you're like, yes
, we have, like, we have donethe work.
Um, but in my experience I tendto see this more when the
environment has changed right.
We cannot heal in environmentsthat get us sick Right.
(32:35):
So I've had a client who was anurse in the ICU during COVID,
who experienced a lot ofvicarious drama and direct
trauma, who has now taken a stepback from bedside nursing and
has shifted into closer to nurseeducation.
Okay, thriving, is able tosleep better, she's more present
(33:00):
in her friendships, she is morepresent in her with her partner
, she is not anywhere near asdepressed.
You know, life is so muchdifferent.
Yeah, that's amazing and thatis such a win when you're like
yeah, like you feel better,you're living a life that is
more aligned with you and you'reable to experience that joy
(33:23):
that you haven't felt for awhile.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
You know, that particular example makes me
wonder if people are really onlyintended to be, maybe in those
types of really high stress,really intense environment roles
for certain periods of theircareer, maybe not for the
lifetime of their career, andyou may love it for five years
and then it may not be for youanymore because you're just like
(33:47):
too overwhelmed with all of thechallenges.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Realistically, most folks are going to be in these
really high acuity situationsfor about two to three years
before they start to experiencesome level of burnout.
And again, sometimes thatburnout can be managed really
proactively and you can stay inthat environment, but not always
.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
That's when you talk to a therapist to find out which
direction you should go.
Let's talk about you.
I want to learn more about you.
Let's do it.
Do you find, after these sixyears of doing this work, that
you still need a caregiver foryour own self, for your own
(34:30):
caregiving and for what you are,in order to kind of like
rejuvenate what you are able togive to your clients and others?
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Yes, absolutely so.
As a therapist who specializesin seeing, like other therapists
, I see my own therapist.
It's like my client's grandtherapist, is like the joke that
I go to see and I see her everyweek.
And I have recently started todo EMDR, which is eye movement,
(35:01):
desensitization and reprocessing.
I'm a big believer that Icannot ask my folks to do
something that I am unwilling todo, so I continue to go to
therapy.
I continue to do my own healing.
I make sure that I take care ofthe basics in my life, like
sleep hygiene.
I basically treat myself like Iam an emotional houseplant, so
(35:26):
I need regular sunlight.
I need regular water and food,like very clear intervals.
Right, I do hot yoga, as youknow.
As often as I can, I meditate.
I volunteer with causes thatare important to me.
I'm an active member of theGenesis Alliance board.
I I spend a lot of time inconsultation groups with my
(35:49):
peers.
I go to trainings to learnabout, you know, what is the
newest and the best coolestthing out there.
I do things I love.
I read a ton.
I spend time with my friends,my family.
I've gotten into some differenthobbies to let my brain rest
and use my hands Good, I'verecently learned how to play
Mahjong.
(36:09):
Oh my gosh, okay, okay, it isso cool.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
It is everywhere.
Yes, it is.
Yes, it's on everyone's list,right?
Speaker 2 (36:17):
It's everyone's list, and because I was busy working
in the hospitals during COVID, Iam just now getting into my
sourdough era, so many peopleare doing this too.
So I you know I'm a littlebehind the times, but you know
I'm doing what I can.
But you know what?
I'm?
A recovering people pleaser.
I'm a recovering perfectionist.
(36:37):
There are some days that I'mreally good at like setting
those boundaries and saying nowhen I mean no and yes when I
mean yes.
Um, but at the end of the day,I am still just a messy human
like everyone else, um, who hasreally good days and really bad
days of trying to make decisionsthat are most aligned with
(36:58):
what's important to me.
So, absolutely, I am acaregiver that still needs a
caregiver 100%.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
I've asked other therapists this and I'm curious
how you would respond to it.
Do you ever feel frustratedwith the choices that your
clients make?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
I think sometimes my initial reaction is to be a
little frustrated, and Irecognize that this person knows
their life way better than Iknow it.
This person has every abilityto make really good decisions
for themselves and even if theyend up making a decision that
(37:37):
turns out to be a mistake, theyalso have the innate capacity to
recover from that mistake.
And I have so much faith andtrust in that that if I am
frustrated with a choice myclient is making, that's a me
thing, that's something I needto look at and then I need to
you know, examine further, like,why am I getting really
(37:57):
frustrated with this person?
Um, but I think it's verynormal, right, Like we have such
deep relationships with ourclients and you're like, oh,
like I wish, like I wish youwould make this choice, Uh, and
I fully trust in my client'sability to change and make
really good decisions forthemselves.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Sure, okay, I'm really glad you provided that
insight.
So for anybody listening who isa therapist or a helping
professional and is consideringseeking out some support for
themselves, let's give them anidea of how common burnout can
be and that way they can kind ofgauge for themselves if they
want to, you know, pursue atleast just looking into getting
their own therapist.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
In 2023, there was a therapist wellbeing report
published by Simple Practice,and Simple Practice is one of
the largest electronic medicalhealth systems designed for
therapists.
So they asked 550 US-basedtherapists all of these
different questions, and theresults are wild.
(39:05):
So 52% of therapists reportedexperiencing burnout in 2023,
with 29% reporting that theycurrently felt burned out At
that moment in time.
At that moment in time andstill working.
Still working, okay.
54% talked about compassionfatigue as a reason for their
(39:29):
burnout.
Yeah, nearly half cited low pay.
One third said that theseverity and complexity of their
client's needs has increased.
25% said that their caseloadwas too high.
Over 50% closer to 60% saidthat the work-life balance was a
contributor to their burnout.
(39:50):
And half of the people who saidthat they are experiencing
burnout reported that it makesthem more cynical and more
hesitant to take on more severe,complex and acute clients.
And here's the wild part Nearlya third of people in this
(40:10):
survey said that they consideredleaving the field or are
currently considering leavingthe field.
Since COVID, there has been atwo and a half times demand at
least for mental health careservices, and if too many folks
are getting burned out, theywill leave the field.
(40:31):
And we are already facing ashortage of mental health
practitioners, of people who areable to provide that healing,
caregiving and helping.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
So where do we go from here?
Where do?
Speaker 2 (40:43):
we go.
Folks who provide this helpingand healing deserve to live this
life that is full, authenticand joyful, that recognizes the
contribution of what they do.
But they are also so much morethan just what they do and this
is so important to make surethat they are okay, because if
(41:05):
our helpers and healers say thatthey are feeling more cynical,
that they're not able to befully present, that their
burnout is affecting theirquality of care, there are
clients, there are folks outthere who need healing, who need
help, who aren't going to getit, and we already know there
are not enough therapists whoprovide services to people of
(41:28):
color.
Right, we already know thatthere is a shortage and it is
only going to get worse if leftunattended.
Again, I think it's importantto just note that these things
are happening right, likeacknowledging all parts of the
experience, like, yes, there arethese really beautiful,
wonderful days as a therapist,and also there are some really
(41:49):
hard days.
Like there are some days whereyou are totally burned out and
it feels really difficult andthat's a very common experience,
and talking about thatexperience with your peers, with
your coworkers, makes it morenormalized.
Right, it's not a you issue.
There is one person cannotprovide right all the help and
(42:14):
support of a mental health caresystem that says we need more
clinicians.
Their presence is so needed,right Like we need these folks,
and also we can't ask them totry to fix a broken system on an
individual level.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Yeah, that's for sure .
I think that there's a need formore therapists.
I think there's a need for agreater sense of unity around
the world, really, and I thinkit would only help us to build
communities of help and hope andsupport so that we have a
better sense of where of that webelong in the place where we
(42:52):
are.
You know, either it's ourworkplace or it is our
neighborhood or our church orsome other organization, and I
think that it's, I think, whatyou, what you were talking about
, what you kind of like do foryourself learning a hobby and
going to yoga and stuff likethat.
It may sound silly, but thosethings can help prevent some
(43:17):
levels of burnout.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
It is so seemingly simple, and yet it is the simple
things that make the biggestimpact.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
That is the truth.
What is your website again, sopeople can learn more, read that
blog and get in touch with you.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yes, my website is wwwsageholisticcounselingcom.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Aubrey, good to be with you.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Genesis Women's Shelter and Support exists to
give women in abusive situationsa way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
(44:03):
domestic violence.
You can learn more atGenesisShelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
Genesis Women's Shelter, and onX at Genesis Shelter.
The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, seven
days a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.
Talk therapy is in high demand, but when the
therapist needs someone to talkto, who does she call?
Licensed professional counselorAubrey Richardson is here today
and shares her practice to helptherapists, helping
professionals and caregiversrecover from people-pleasing,
perfectionism and overachieving,without feeling selfish.
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis the podcast, and this is
(00:23):
Genesis the podcast.
Aubrey Richardson is a licensedprofessional counselor in Texas
with a passion for caring forthose on the front lines.
She graduated from JohnsHopkins University with a
clinical mental healthcounseling degree in 2019.
Aubrey has worked at all levelsof care at various psychiatric
(00:44):
rehabilitation facilities,including inpatient units,
partial hospitalization programs, and was the adult intensive
outpatient programmingcoordinator at Texas Health
Behavioral Health Dallas.
After seeing the effects ofburnout and vicarious trauma on
fellow clinicians, she pursuedopening her private practice.
(01:04):
Trauma on fellow clinicians shepursued opening her private
practice.
Currently, aubrey is the ownerand operator of Sage Holistic
Counseling and specializes inworking with other therapists,
helpers and caregivers torecover from perfectionism,
people-pleasing andoverachieving.
She is passionate about helpingher therapy seekers
holistically address the mindand body as well as challenge
the dominant narrative aroundhustle culture.
(01:26):
When Aubrey is not working,she's an active member of Beta
Kappa Beta, the Dallas areaalumni organization for Alpha
Chi Omega sorority and is anactive member of the Alliance
Board for Genesis Women'sShelter and Support Aubrey.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I'm so excited to be here I am so excited to learn
from you today because you and Ijust met, like just like a week
ago I think it's just been aweek since we were introduced
and we really had a greatconversation about the work that
we're doing at Genesis and howit, you know, kind of is similar
to the work that you're doingin your practice, and we also
(02:08):
have in common you and I wefigured out that we're
recovering people pleasers andmaybe perfectionists.
Yeah.
So if you, listening, are apeople pleaser or a
perfectionist or an overachieveror you're just stinking tired
today, you're in really goodcompany.
So listen along as we learnabout how a therapist sometimes
(02:31):
needs a therapist.
I am very intrigued about thework you are doing to support
therapists with therapy, becauseat Genesis we have so many
helping professionals, fromlicensed social workers and
professional counselors toadvocates, attorneys and so many
others, and it's kind of likeeveryone who works at Genesis is
some level of a helpingprofessional.
(02:54):
Even if you're not directlyworking with clients, you're
working for the mission thatsupports them.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
All of these folks, all of these positions, whether
at Genesis or elsewhere,including yourself, do a lot of
folks, all of these positions,whether a Genesis or elsewhere,
including yourself, do a lot ofgood, despite all of the trauma
that is involved, for the peoplethat they help.
So, while it makes sense to methat a therapist might need
their own professional to talkwith, I'm curious how you got
started in this work and who areyour typical clients in this
(03:27):
work and who are your typicalclients?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yes, I always knew that I wanted to be in the
therapy space.
I just wasn't really quite surewhat that was going to look
like.
In a previous life I actuallystarted out on the research side
of things.
So I started my journey inresearch.
I was working on a study atJohns Hopkins helping folks with
serious mental illness loseweight and quit smoking to
(03:48):
improve their cardiovascularrisk factors Wow, and I loved
sitting in the psych rehabprograms.
I loved sitting with the folks.
I love talking to them andhearing their story and I
absolutely despised going backto the office and having to put
data into Excel spreadsheets forsix hours of my day.
(04:08):
So pretty quickly I knew that Ineeded to shift sides of where
I was, so I applied for amaster's program.
I got into my master's programat Johns Hopkins and had that
concentration in clinical mentalhealth counseling.
I no longer live in Maryland,so it turns out that the snow is
(04:33):
not for me.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
I'm a native Texan, so I'm not built, yeah me either
.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Yeah, not built for that weather.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
And so I came back to Texas and I started working in
the inpatient unit Texas and Istarted working in the inpatient
unit personal hospitalizationand intensive outpatient
programs at Texas Health, dallashere, and I spent a few years
working there and I met so manyincredible clinicians who were
so passionate and so good atwhat they did and they were so
(05:00):
burned out Wow.
And I couldn't figure out.
I was like, wow, I'm in thistotally different state, right,
like I'm in a totally differentsetting and I'm noticing the
same thing.
There's all these incrediblepeople, highly talented, very
capable, so crispy burnt out,wow.
And then I started this otherjob in a private practice.
(05:20):
So now I'm in a differentsetting and I started in this
private practice of March 2020.
So COVID hit and it was thefirst time in recent history
that therapists and clients weregoing through the same thing at
the same time and there wasthis influx of folks who were
(05:43):
nurses, who were doctors, whowere on the front lines, who
started coming in either for thefirst time or returning to
therapy.
Right, and I was like these aremy people, these are people I
connect with.
I know them, I've been there,I've lived this life and I
haven't looked back, since I'vejust continued to specialize and
(06:05):
really hone in on helpers,healers and caregivers.
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
I mean, that really is a kind of a new twist on
something coming out of thepandemic that was actually good
and helpful to not just to youbut to a lot of other people.
Let's try to get a baselinedefinition of what a caregiver
is versus a helping professionaland so on.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
To me, the difference between a caregiver and a
helping professional is justwhether or not this person is
paid for their labor.
So a caregiver can be someonewho is taking care of elderly
parents or taking care of smallchildren Maybe their spouse is
someone who is chronically illor going through cancer
treatments they're inrelationships with someone who
(06:52):
is active in their addictionversus a helping professional is
someone whose income andlivelihood depends on them
helping people every day.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Okay, I kind of thought that was the distinction
, but I wanted just to be reallysure what we were talking about
.
So I don't necessarily have tobe a therapist to come and work
with you as my therapist, youknow, if I'm taking care of an
elderly parent and I don't haveto be burned out either, right,
can just be kind of need someoneto help you make sense of
(07:23):
things.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yes, most people are going to fall into that category
.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Yeah, so let's talk about the issues that they are
facing that are unique to thesespecific roles.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Let's do it.
Let's talk about these veryunique pain points that
therapists points thattherapists, healers, helpers,
caregivers experience.
In my experience, one of thebiggest pain points is that
their work is fundamentallyundervalued.
The work is invisible or seenas like oh, this is just part of
(07:59):
your personality, this is whatyou do, this is part of your
role, and these are professionsthat tend to be lower paid for
the same or more education thanother industries.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Right or not paid at all if you're a caregiver.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Correct or it's totally unpaid labor that you
are providing.
There's also this pain point ofholding emotional space for
other people all day long.
You may talk to people all day,eight hours a day, but your job
is to keep the focus on theother person and that takes an
(08:40):
incredible toll on someone.
We're also seeing that theemotional space that we're
having to hold are for clients,therapy seekers, who are going
through more acute and crisissituations.
So people are coming in withmore intense symptoms, more
severe, just more complex thingsthat are going on and
(09:01):
especially if you are thishelper, healer, caregiver, there
can be this stigma that youshould already know what to do,
that you should already have allof the answers in your head and
you should be able to figure itout by yourself About yourself.
Yes, about yourself Right, andit is so untrue that we're
supposed to already have all ofthe answers.
But there's that stigma of Idon't want to like admit that
(09:25):
maybe.
I tell other people all daylong that they need to take care
of themselves, but I have areally hard time taking care of
myself.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Something that I'm also noticing and that's gotten
more prevalent over time, ishaving to balance the
ever-changing and quicklychanging laws with your ethical
mandates and the mission of yourorganization, and trying to
balance those things out.
A lot of the times, if the lawsand the ethics are not aligned,
(09:53):
you have to make that ethicaldecision, you have to use some
sort of decision-making model,and you may be in the situation
where your license may bejeopardized, right If you break
the law.
Can you give us an?
Speaker 1 (10:06):
example.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Sure.
So if I have a client thatcomes in and is seeking
particular healthcare servicesthat are not allowed in this
state, do I report them, as ismandated by Texas law, or do I
help them receive those servicesother places?
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Wow, I mean, that is, I hadn't even really put that
together.
But yes, I hear what you'resaying, that can be extremely
challenging on so many levels.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
And if your license is your livelihood, if that is
tied to your 401k, if that istied to your savings, your own
healthcare, is that somethingthat you're really able to put
at risk?
Right, you know people haveinvested significant time and
money into getting theirlicenses Absolutely and having
to weigh right those pros andcons of like I don't have that
(10:58):
privilege of like yeah, it'sokay if they take my license
away.
You know that's my livelihood.
There's also been this whiplashthat I've noticed in my folks
related to COVID-19, that for solong all of these helpers and
healers, healthcareprofessionals, were seen as like
healthcare heroes and now thatmessaging is totally gone.
(11:18):
I was working in the hospitalwhen COVID hit and all of a
sudden there was this bigsparkly sign outside that said
like thank you, healthcareheroes.
And people were like droppingoff dinners and lunches and
gifts from all of thesebusinesses and you're like, oh,
wow, like people are reallyrecognizing my contribution and
(11:41):
that has gone away so quicklyand that leaves folks feeling
really confused and reallydisappointed and really again
that the work feels undervaluedand not as important with the
increased red tape and thebureaucracy of navigating broken
(12:06):
systems like healthcare, likeinsurance, where you're having
to do more administrative tasksthat don't align with providing
any sort of patient care.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
This is such an undertaking and so necessary it
sounds.
You know that you or someoneneeds to be there for people who
are always there for others,and I have to wonder then how
common is it for a therapist ora helping professional to really
need their own therapist?
Speaker 2 (12:38):
I am so excited to answer this question, oh good,
okay, so there's two.
There's two pieces that I wantto really highlight, and the
first is that it's verydifficult to capture data on
this, but the best estimates arethat somewhere between 60 to
80% of folks in the helpingprofessions are in therapy.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
At one time or another.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Sure, yes, at one time or another, but again, it's
hard to capture that data.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Just privacy, hipaa, stigma, all that sort of
contributing factors yeah sure,I didn't think that there was a
big study on it, so much as justwondering if it's.
You know.
We could even look at this on avery hyper local level and say,
hey, what's the stream ofpeople coming to your practice?
You know what I mean.
(13:24):
Are you booked every day?
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Oh, I am booked.
I am full.
People need help.
Especially after the COVID-19pandemic, the demand for mental
health care has increased atleast two and a half times what
we were seeing before thepandemic.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Oh, absolutely.
And beyond the pandemic, thesociety we live in, the rhetoric
that we need to deal with dayin and day out, it's enough to
make anyone feel like they needsomeone to talk to.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Life is hard and it's only going to get harder.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Said the therapist.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Said the therapist yeah, absolutely, life is hard.
Life is hard and we're notsupposed to go through this life
by ourselves.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
We're supposed to be in community.
I think it's important to beable to say out loud and just
acknowledge life is hard.
I think even that can just be astep to say it's hard, this was
hard, this day was hard and Ican't take it anymore.
Whether or not you end up goingto talk to a therapist is, you
know, a different story.
But acknowledging how you feelI think is really important into
(14:28):
being honest with yourself andwith others.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Absolutely 100%.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
So I mean at Genesis, like I said, we have a lot of
professionals working withsurvivors of domestic violence
and I fully understand the needfor these professionals and
professionals like you as well.
I mean, these are reallyimportant jobs and they're
critical.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
But learning about the trauma or the business of
trauma makes me wonder how theseprofessions can be attractive
to anyone when the work can beso hard these professions these
helpers, healers, caregiversthere are good days at work and
there are bad days at work, justlike any other job, any other
(15:12):
nine to five corporate job.
The difference is that our gooddays and our bad days tend to
look very different.
Hmm, on our good days, we havethe opportunity to see the
incredible hope, the incredibleresiliency in human beings and
(15:32):
the ability for folks to makeand sustain change, and that is
a beautiful thing that peoplevery few people get to witness.
Who is in this business oftrauma.
You may be the only person insomeone's life who gets to hear
the full story.
They get to know what is reallyhappening, what is really going
(15:53):
on for this person in theirhead and in their heart.
It is a gift and a privilege tohear someone's story.
Being a therapist is my highestprivilege that I've ever
experienced and probably willever experience Therapists and
(16:14):
helpers.
We are wounded healers ourselves, and so we have this immense
capacity to tap into our ownexperience and offer this deep
empathy, to build thisrelationship with another person
that is incredibly healing,that they may have never
experienced a safe relationshiplike this in their life.
And this profession of healing,whatever that may look like,
has been around across time andspace.
(16:36):
It's been present in everyculture for as long as we know.
It just looks different now.
Folks have always turned tospiritual advisors.
They have turned to shamans.
Now therapy just looks verydifferent.
Right, it is very professional,it's very structured, but
healing has always beenhappening in our communities.
(16:59):
It's been happening for as longas people have been
experiencing tough days, whichhas been as long as you know
beginning of time.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yeah, I think you hit on something else really
important there, and that isthis sense of community and how
healing it can be just to have aconnection with another human
being and feel that you are partof something larger than
yourself or what's happening toyou.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yes, the relationship between therapist and therapy
seeker.
That relationship is the numberone determinant of how
effective the therapy is goingto be.
It is more important than thespecific modality that you were
using.
It is all about therelationship that you build.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Yeah, I think I could see that Having a connection
with someone is critical tobeing able to maintain this
relationship.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
We are hurt in relationships and we heal in
relationships.
You're very wise, Aubrey.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Let's talk about when someone should really kind of
look up and think about talkingto a therapist.
What are some of the signs thatone might need a therapist?
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I have many, many blog posts written about this,
of when it is time to see atherapist, and there are
definitely some signs that youneed to look out for in yourself
and that, again in community,we should be looking out for in
our peers, our coworkers and ourfriends, Because sometimes we
don't necessarily notice what ishappening.
(18:32):
What we tend to see is that yougive too much of yourself and
there's just nothing left at theend of the day.
Healers and helpers can beemotional sponges and we just
take in all of these feelingsand thoughts from other people
and we give everything that wehave and, at the end of the day,
we are just exhausted.
(18:53):
We are sitting in our carsoutside of our homes scrolling
on social media before we goinside.
We are sitting in the dark,just sitting in the silence,
because that's the first timewe've had it all day.
You know, just sitting in thesilence because that's the first
time we've had it all day.
Yeah, we are tired and that isa really good sign that it is
it's time to call a therapist.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Yeah, I think that sounds about right to me, and
tired can be just emotionallydrained not physically tired.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Yes, if you are sleeping seven, eight hours a
night and waking up and you'restill exhausted, that's not
physical exhaustion, that'semotional exhaustion that is
really coming through.
And we see this guilt of.
I quote should be able to givemore, I should be able to do
more, and we act as if we'resuper human, and we're not.
We are only human beings.
(19:45):
We have limits.
We can only do so much in a day, and when we start to feel like
we're not giving enough, thatcan be a sign that burnout is
looming and again it may be timeto call a therapist.
I think those are kind of thebig, big signs to start looking
out for.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
So I just want to double back and remind people
that Aubrey has a great blog onher website and it includes one
blog post specifically about thesigns that the therapist may
need a therapist and it's notscary at all, right, I mean,
it's not like red flags.
Morning signs, like you know,turn back, now dead end.
(20:24):
It is very thoughtfullyprepared and I hope you'll go
and take a look at it after thisshow.
What is the website, aubrey?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
It is sageholisticcounselingcom slash
shc-blog, and you can see all ofmy blog posts there.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Okay, yeah, it's all really good.
I personally have read some ofthe blogs and I really enjoyed
it.
So let's say we're in therapyfor you know, just dealing with
some emotional burnout issues orwhatever, and or trying to
overcome this overachiever lifeor career that we've established
for ourselves.
Is there an end point totherapy or does?
(21:01):
Is it continual?
What do you typically see?
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yes, yes to all things Perfectionism,
people-pleasing, overachieving.
These tend to be the overtpresentations of underlying
anxiety and trauma.
So there is absolutely a timeand a place where someone needs
(21:25):
to be in active therapy to takecare of themselves, and that may
look more like weekly sessionswith the therapist, but I'm
going to give a little bit of ahot take here.
Okay, that I truly believe thatif you are a therapist, if you
are actively offering healing toanother person, then you should
(21:46):
be in therapy always.
How often you see yourtherapist, what kind of modality
you're doing, what you'retalking about may change over
time, but I am a true believerthat therapists should also be
in therapy.
So there is no you know endpoint where it's like ah,
today's the day Like I havereached healing, Like there's no
(22:08):
more work to do.
I, you know I am perfectlyhealed and, you know, totally
recovered from my peoplepleasing and all of my
overachieving.
That's not realistic.
But there are days where youcan say you know what I have
reached, like my initial goals,I'm feeling better, I'm ready to
take maybe a step back toseeing someone less frequently.
(22:29):
But I truly believe that alltherapists should be in therapy.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really interesting
take on the whole issue and Ithink it's a healthy approach.
That doesn't mean there aren'tother ways to do it that aren't
equally as healthy.
I think kind of, in a way, whatyou're saying is put make time
for yourself, put yourself firstand really just you know kind
(22:55):
of make sure that you're okay.
It's the whole oxygen maskanalogy right, and you really do
need to have yours on firstbefore you can ever help anybody
else.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Doctors, other doctors, when they're sick,
chiropractors cannot adjustthemselves Right.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
We have to take care of ourselves.
I was just thinking aboutstylists.
They can't really do their ownhair.
Yeah, you can't cut your ownhair.
I mean, I know my stylist is.
She does not cut her own hair.
If you're listening, Kelly,you're the best and you're not
allowed to leave me.
So okay, let's then talk aboutsomething we touched on
(23:35):
throughout this conversation sofar what is emotional burnout,
what are the signs and whatsteps should we take to manage
it?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yes, let's get into it.
Okay.
So emotional burnout can looklike depression and anxiety, but
it has this very systemic pieceto the burnout.
So we love to say you know,individuals have a problem with
burnout, but burnout solving,burnout is really about changing
(24:05):
the systems, because the systemis demanding too much of one
person.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
But I don't know that I fully understand what burnout
means.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yes, so burnout is this level where we are too much
is going out and not enough iscoming in.
So we start to see that we arefalling behind on tasks.
We are maybe chronically lateto work and it doesn't have to
be.
You know, I'm 30 minutes lateto work every day but we are
(24:35):
showing up later and later overtime.
We are more cynical, we aremore sarcastic, we are not as
committed to the things that weused to be really excited and
passionate about.
We are not experiencing thesame level of joy from things
that previously brought us joy.
(24:55):
We tend to see that folks usemore sick days, that they're
starting to see more physicalmanifestations of stress, like
headaches, neck aches, stomachaches that may prevent them to
coming into work, aches, stomachaches that may prevent them to
coming into work.
We're seeing anger, frustrationand irritability.
(25:16):
That is not characteristic ofthat person and is typically not
proportional to whatever ishappening.
We're seeing that chronicexhaustion where it's not
getting better with sleep andrest and we're starting to see
more unhelpful coping skills.
So, instead of like calling afriend after work, maybe we are
spending too much money, maybewe start drinking too much or
maybe we start avoiding things.
(25:37):
So that's an emotional burnout.
It can look like depression andanxiety, but it is related to
too many demands on one person.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Gotcha, Okay, so you were.
Then you were answering thequestion what are the signs?
And I don't think we got to thepart about what steps should we
take to manage it.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Yes.
So I want to be so clear thatwe cannot just self-care our way
out of burnout and vicarioustrauma.
There are things that we can dopreventatively to make it less
likely to happen and we alwayswant to focus on that prevention
(26:20):
over the remediation.
So the things that we can do tomanage and prevent it are to
try to balance our caseload.
So if I'm a therapist, it's notgoing to go very well for me if
I am putting eight clients onmy schedule back to back, all
who are experiencing incredibleamounts of, like, active trauma.
(26:41):
That's not going to go well forme.
Over time, right Schedulingbreaks in our day, making sure
that we are eating lunch,getting adequate supervision,
getting adequate support in case, consultation from our peers
and coworkers, being able to sethealthy boundaries for
ourselves at work and at home,living more of your life outside
(27:03):
of work, really focusing onthose things that bring you joy
and give you that nourishmentand rejuvenation that you you
know that makes you like, wantto get up in the morning and
like.
I'm excited for this thing.
But we also have to focus onthe systemic environmental
changes.
You cannot heal environmentsthat get you sick.
(27:25):
So we can do you know all theself-care things.
But if we are still trying tosee too many clients in a day,
it's not going to get better.
If we are still trying tonavigate, you know there not
being enough therapists, youknow we can't self-care our way
(27:45):
out of a situation where mostplaces are going to be
understaffed and underfunded.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Yes, I can see that.
I think you were really smartto say that we cannot self-care
our way out of emotional burnout.
It's kind of a turning point ora tipping point, if you will.
So if you start seeing thosewarning signs a little bit
earlier or you take action alittle bit earlier, maybe you
can prevent it going too deeplyinto the burnout and, you know,
(28:16):
work your way back out of it andhopefully address some of that
anxiety and depression, becauseyou said something really
interesting about howperfectionism is really the
underlying depression andanxiety.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yes, it's the overt presentation of the underlying
anxiety and trauma.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah, I find that really interesting because I
would have never thought of thatI'm not a therapist and I would
have never thought that alljust anxiety right could cause
or manifest in so many differentways that are then so harmful
to you as an individual.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
The things that were really helpful to us when we
were in really difficultsituations may not be as helpful
to us now that we are out ofthat really difficult or
traumatic situation.
People-pleasing is another wordfor fawning, which we know is
you know, fight, flight, freezeand fawn.
(29:16):
Those are the four things andso that can be really helpful
when we're in a traumaticsituation, to help keep us safe,
to anticipate the reactions ofother people.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yeah, exactly when we're not in that situation.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
It can be way more harmful to us.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
And I think, as women , a lot of us were raised to be
people pleasers.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
We are socialized to be that way.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Yeah, we want people to be happy and we want them to
be happy with us.
I mean, I don't really care ifpeople aren't happy with me.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
There's that recovering people, pleaser yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
I'm good.
I'm good now.
You want to be angry, do it onyour own time.
But moving on to others, not me.
This show is not about me.
Let's talk about vicarioustrauma.
How does that manifest and whatare some tools for dealing with
it?
Speaker 2 (30:04):
So vicarious trauma manifests like PTSD
post-traumatic stress disorder.
Whereas emotional burnoutpresents closer to anxiety and
depression, vicarious trauma isgoing to present closer to PTSD.
What is different about it isthat the person who experiences
vicarious trauma is not theperson who experienced the
(30:24):
trauma.
So you may still get flashbacksfrom the event as if you were
the one that experienced it.
You may have intrusive thoughtsand memories or thoughts that
you don't want.
You're trying not to thinkabout the event.
You may have really physicalmanifestations, like your heart
may start to race.
(30:44):
You might feel sweaty andclammy.
You may have nightmares as thehealer and the helper.
You may start to avoid anyreminders of that trauma.
You may feel really detachedfrom people, places and things
that you love.
You may startle very easy, likeif someone comes up behind you.
You may have a really largestartle reaction, again
(31:06):
disproportionate to thesituation.
You may be hypervigilant, justalways scanning the environment,
kind of double checking,everything being really overly
attuned to the environment.
And again you may see thatpiece of being more irritable
and more angry.
That just isn't characteristicof that person.
And if you are experiencingvicarious trauma, everything we
(31:30):
talked about applies right, likethe earlier you see it, the
better it's going to be in termsof outcome and how long it's
going to take to recover fromthat.
But this is a situation thatwould be pretty severe and I
would recommend, if someone isexperiencing these PTSD-like
symptoms, that they doimmediately seek care.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
That's also good advice.
Now we're talking a lot aboutthe negative of being a
caregiver or helpingprofessional or a therapist
yourself.
When you're working with theseclients, do they ever discover
or rediscover the joys orpurpose of their work, despite
all the challenges or vicarioustrauma?
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Yes, absolutely.
These are like the best days asa, as a therapist, when your
clients are like things are somuch better and you're like, yes
, we have, like, we have donethe work.
Um, but in my experience I tendto see this more when the
environment has changed right.
We cannot heal in environmentsthat get us sick Right.
(32:35):
So I've had a client who was anurse in the ICU during COVID,
who experienced a lot ofvicarious drama and direct
trauma, who has now taken a stepback from bedside nursing and
has shifted into closer to nurseeducation.
Okay, thriving, is able tosleep better, she's more present
(33:00):
in her friendships, she is morepresent in her with her partner
, she is not anywhere near asdepressed.
You know, life is so muchdifferent.
Yeah, that's amazing and thatis such a win when you're like
yeah, like you feel better,you're living a life that is
more aligned with you and you'reable to experience that joy
(33:23):
that you haven't felt for awhile.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
You know, that particular example makes me
wonder if people are really onlyintended to be, maybe in those
types of really high stress,really intense environment roles
for certain periods of theircareer, maybe not for the
lifetime of their career, andyou may love it for five years
and then it may not be for youanymore because you're just like
(33:47):
too overwhelmed with all of thechallenges.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Realistically, most folks are going to be in these
really high acuity situationsfor about two to three years
before they start to experiencesome level of burnout.
And again, sometimes thatburnout can be managed really
proactively and you can stay inthat environment, but not always
.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
That's when you talk to a therapist to find out which
direction you should go.
Let's talk about you.
I want to learn more about you.
Let's do it.
Do you find, after these sixyears of doing this work, that
you still need a caregiver foryour own self, for your own
(34:30):
caregiving and for what you are,in order to kind of like
rejuvenate what you are able togive to your clients and others?
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Yes, absolutely so.
As a therapist who specializesin seeing, like other therapists
, I see my own therapist.
It's like my client's grandtherapist, is like the joke that
I go to see and I see her everyweek.
And I have recently started todo EMDR, which is eye movement,
(35:01):
desensitization and reprocessing.
I'm a big believer that Icannot ask my folks to do
something that I am unwilling todo, so I continue to go to
therapy.
I continue to do my own healing.
I make sure that I take care ofthe basics in my life, like
sleep hygiene.
I basically treat myself like Iam an emotional houseplant, so
(35:26):
I need regular sunlight.
I need regular water and food,like very clear intervals.
Right, I do hot yoga, as youknow.
As often as I can, I meditate.
I volunteer with causes thatare important to me.
I'm an active member of theGenesis Alliance board.
I I spend a lot of time inconsultation groups with my
(35:49):
peers.
I go to trainings to learnabout, you know, what is the
newest and the best coolestthing out there.
I do things I love.
I read a ton.
I spend time with my friends,my family.
I've gotten into some differenthobbies to let my brain rest
and use my hands Good, I'verecently learned how to play
Mahjong.
(36:09):
Oh my gosh, okay, okay, it isso cool.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
It is everywhere.
Yes, it is.
Yes, it's on everyone's list,right?
Speaker 2 (36:17):
It's everyone's list, and because I was busy working
in the hospitals during COVID, Iam just now getting into my
sourdough era, so many peopleare doing this too.
So I you know I'm a littlebehind the times, but you know
I'm doing what I can.
But you know what?
I'm?
A recovering people pleaser.
I'm a recovering perfectionist.
(36:37):
There are some days that I'mreally good at like setting
those boundaries and saying nowhen I mean no and yes when I
mean yes.
Um, but at the end of the day,I am still just a messy human
like everyone else, um, who hasreally good days and really bad
days of trying to make decisionsthat are most aligned with
(36:58):
what's important to me.
So, absolutely, I am acaregiver that still needs a
caregiver 100%.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
I've asked other therapists this and I'm curious
how you would respond to it.
Do you ever feel frustratedwith the choices that your
clients make?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
I think sometimes my initial reaction is to be a
little frustrated, and Irecognize that this person knows
their life way better than Iknow it.
This person has every abilityto make really good decisions
for themselves and even if theyend up making a decision that
(37:37):
turns out to be a mistake, theyalso have the innate capacity to
recover from that mistake.
And I have so much faith andtrust in that that if I am
frustrated with a choice myclient is making, that's a me
thing, that's something I needto look at and then I need to
you know, examine further, like,why am I getting really
(37:57):
frustrated with this person?
Um, but I think it's verynormal, right, Like we have such
deep relationships with ourclients and you're like, oh,
like I wish, like I wish youwould make this choice, Uh, and
I fully trust in my client'sability to change and make
really good decisions forthemselves.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Sure, okay, I'm really glad you provided that
insight.
So for anybody listening who isa therapist or a helping
professional and is consideringseeking out some support for
themselves, let's give them anidea of how common burnout can
be and that way they can kind ofgauge for themselves if they
want to, you know, pursue atleast just looking into getting
their own therapist.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
In 2023, there was a therapist wellbeing report
published by Simple Practice,and Simple Practice is one of
the largest electronic medicalhealth systems designed for
therapists.
So they asked 550 US-basedtherapists all of these
different questions, and theresults are wild.
(39:05):
So 52% of therapists reportedexperiencing burnout in 2023,
with 29% reporting that theycurrently felt burned out At
that moment in time.
At that moment in time andstill working.
Still working, okay.
54% talked about compassionfatigue as a reason for their
(39:29):
burnout.
Yeah, nearly half cited low pay.
One third said that theseverity and complexity of their
client's needs has increased.
25% said that their caseloadwas too high.
Over 50% closer to 60% saidthat the work-life balance was a
contributor to their burnout.
(39:50):
And half of the people who saidthat they are experiencing
burnout reported that it makesthem more cynical and more
hesitant to take on more severe,complex and acute clients.
And here's the wild part Nearlya third of people in this
(40:10):
survey said that they consideredleaving the field or are
currently considering leavingthe field.
Since COVID, there has been atwo and a half times demand at
least for mental health careservices, and if too many folks
are getting burned out, theywill leave the field.
(40:31):
And we are already facing ashortage of mental health
practitioners, of people who areable to provide that healing,
caregiving and helping.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
So where do we go from here?
Where do?
Speaker 2 (40:43):
we go.
Folks who provide this helpingand healing deserve to live this
life that is full, authenticand joyful, that recognizes the
contribution of what they do.
But they are also so much morethan just what they do and this
is so important to make surethat they are okay, because if
(41:05):
our helpers and healers say thatthey are feeling more cynical,
that they're not able to befully present, that their
burnout is affecting theirquality of care, there are
clients, there are folks outthere who need healing, who need
help, who aren't going to getit, and we already know there
are not enough therapists whoprovide services to people of
(41:28):
color.
Right, we already know thatthere is a shortage and it is
only going to get worse if leftunattended.
Again, I think it's importantto just note that these things
are happening right, likeacknowledging all parts of the
experience, like, yes, there arethese really beautiful,
wonderful days as a therapist,and also there are some really
(41:49):
hard days.
Like there are some days whereyou are totally burned out and
it feels really difficult andthat's a very common experience,
and talking about thatexperience with your peers, with
your coworkers, makes it morenormalized.
Right, it's not a you issue.
There is one person cannotprovide right all the help and
(42:14):
support of a mental health caresystem that says we need more
clinicians.
Their presence is so needed,right Like we need these folks,
and also we can't ask them totry to fix a broken system on an
individual level.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Yeah, that's for sure .
I think that there's a need formore therapists.
I think there's a need for agreater sense of unity around
the world, really, and I thinkit would only help us to build
communities of help and hope andsupport so that we have a
better sense of where of that webelong in the place where we
(42:52):
are.
You know, either it's ourworkplace or it is our
neighborhood or our church orsome other organization, and I
think that it's, I think, whatyou, what you were talking about
, what you kind of like do foryourself learning a hobby and
going to yoga and stuff likethat.
It may sound silly, but thosethings can help prevent some
(43:17):
levels of burnout.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
It is so seemingly simple, and yet it is the simple
things that make the biggestimpact.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
That is the truth.
What is your website again, sopeople can learn more, read that
blog and get in touch with you.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yes, my website is wwwsageholisticcounselingcom.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Aubrey, good to be with you.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Genesis Women's Shelter and Support exists to
give women in abusive situationsa way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
(44:03):
domestic violence.
You can learn more atGenesisShelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
Genesis Women's Shelter, and onX at Genesis Shelter.
The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, seven
days a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.
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