May 19, 2025 • 52 mins
What warning signs did we all miss? In the wake of Gabby Petito's tragic murder by her fiancé Brian Laundrie, situational awareness expert Kelly Sayre joins host Maria MacMullin to fulfill Joe Petito's call to action—using his daughter's story as a learning tool to help others recognize the dangerous patterns of abuse before they turn deadly.
Kelly breaks down abusive behaviors through the lens of situational awareness, defining it as "using all your senses and intuition to notice when something is off in your environment, understanding what it means to your safety, and taking action." This framework provides listeners with practical tools to identify potentially dangerous relationships, whether in their own lives or those of loved ones.
The conversation examines specific red flags from Gabby's relationship: her tendency to take all blame during the Moab police encounter, Brian's tactics to isolate her from friends and family, his financial abuse that undermined her independence, and the controlling behaviors disguised as concern. Most importantly, Kelly emphasizes that severe domestic violence rarely begins with physical attacks—it starts with psychological manipulation that gradually escalates.
Perhaps most powerful is the discussion about intuition as a biological safety mechanism. "Intuition is not a prankster," Kelly explains. "It's simply trying to let you know something in your environment is off." Both experts encourage listeners to trust that gut feeling when something doesn't seem right in a relationship, as this instinct exists to preserve our safety.
Whether you're concerned about your own relationship or trying to support someone you love, this episode offers crucial insights into recognizing abuse patterns early. Trust your intuition, maintain your boundaries, and remember that knowledge is power when it comes to personal safety. Share this episode with someone who needs to hear it—it could save a life.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
In a recent interview titled Gabby Petito's Parents
Aren't Done Fighting.
In New Netflix Doc published onNetflixcom, joe Petito offered
this call to action.
I'd like to see countriesaround the world use her story
as a learning tool to get betterresources and information out
to everyone that needs help.
Today we'll do just that withKelly Sayre, expert in
(00:22):
situational awareness trainingand founder of the Diamond Arrow
Group.
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis, the podcast.
Gabby Petito was abused andultimately murdered by her
fiance, brian Laundrie, in 2021.
The recent Netflix documentaryAmerican Murder Gabby Petito
(00:46):
details Laundrie's years-longpattern of abuse as documented
in video, text messages, artwork, letters and more.
To raise awareness about thesigns of abusive patterns of
behavior, my guest, kelly Sayre,will help us take a closer look
at examples of abusive behaviorthrough the lens of situational
awareness, a method that helpsindividuals recognize and avoid
(01:08):
potential threats before theyescalate.
Kelly Sayre is a leader inempowering people with practical
tools and strategies for livingsafely and confidently.
As the founder of the DiamondArrow Group, kelly is passionate
about changing the self-defenseconversation group.
Kelly is passionate aboutchanging the self-defense
conversation, shifting the focusfrom primarily physical skills
to situational awareness andprevention, to equip people to
(01:31):
thrive unafraid and live lifeconfidently.
In her work, kelly partnerswith law enforcement
corporations, nonprofits andyouth organizations to deliver
impactful training in personalsafety, situational awareness
and workplace violenceprevention.
Kelly is certified in FEMA'sCommunity Emergency Response
Team Program, the Department ofHomeland Security's Active
(01:54):
Shooter Preparedness Workshopand Texas A&M Extension Services
Crisis Communications.
She is also a member of theAssociation of Threat Assessment
Professionals.
This episode discusses intimatepartner violence and femicide,
(02:20):
or on their website atthehotlineorg, or by contacting
Genesis Women's Shelter andSupport in Dallas, texas, at
214-946-HELP 214-946-4357, or onthe website at
genesisshelterorg.
Kelly.
Welcome back to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Thank you for having me.
It's good to see you.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
It's good to see you and I'm so glad you're here,
because we have a lot to talkabout today and many of us who
recently watched the Netflixdocumentary American Murder,
gabby Petito.
We have a lot of questions andthoughts about both the film and
the case and, in particular,for this conversation.
What did we miss?
How could this have beenprevented?
(03:03):
And a whole lot more.
But before we dive into thecase and the details, would you
remind us what is situationalawareness, because that is not
only the field that you are anexpert in.
It is the lens through whichwe're going to view and discuss
the related details today.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
So situational awareness is kind of a vague and
typically a militaristic ortactical definition.
So the one that I created issituational awareness, is using
all of your senses and intuitionto notice when something is off
in your environment, thenunderstanding what it means to
you and your safety and then,lastly, taking action to
(03:41):
preserve your safety.
To preserve your safety, andyou know, our discussion today I
think is is going to match upperfectly, because there's a lot
of things that when I watchedthe documentary it's like okay,
well, that's off.
It's not necessarily thisglaring warning sign, but it's
it's something off.
And the way the documentarydepicted it.
(04:02):
Gabby noticed things were offtoo, and maybe her parents and
her you know, her step parentsnoticed things were off but we
didn't know how to.
They didn't necessarily knowhow to what it meant to her
safety and how to take action tokeep her safe.
Again, not victim blaming, notblaming the parents.
But it's that real conversationof how often do we ignore our
(04:24):
intuition signals and think, oh,I'm probably overreacting, I'm
probably reading too much intoit.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah, absolutely so.
If you haven't seen thedocumentary, what we're
describing is kind of theconversation that goes
throughout the episodes of, inretrospect, gabby's parents,
friends and others looking backon the situation, thinking maybe
I should have taken a secondlook at what she said or what he
said or what either of them did, because the public doesn't
(04:54):
really enter the picture andunderstand what's going on until
the traffic stop in Moab.
That's when we first becomeaware as the general public that
something was going on,something was wrong between
Brian and Gabby.
And so what you've done veryexpertly is to identify some
examples of behavior by BrianLaundrie and that show his
(05:18):
abusive pattern of behavior, andwe're going to talk through
these so we can identify abusivebehaviors, how Gabby was
impacted and what we can learnfrom each of these.
And all of this is in responseto Joe Petito's call to action
that Gabby's story be shared asa learning tool to help others
with resources and information.
(05:39):
So we have a lot of exampleshere that we want to try to get
through, and what we are goingto talk about is not necessarily
following a timeline of theevents as they happen, so it's
not from beginning to endrelationship.
It kind of goes along followingthis story.
So how about if you set thestage for us on the first
(06:01):
example, kelly, of what yourefer to as taking all the blame
Right, and that's?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
in relation to when the documentary opens.
It opens with the body camfootage from the officers in
Utah and what's reallyinteresting about watching that
video is we are actually gettingto see her in real time, not
necessarily thinking about oh Ineed to say this, I need to say
(06:27):
that, just being completelyhonest, but reacting in a way or
saying things in a way thatsometimes we see most typical
abuse victims are, is they'retaking on all the blame.
You know, the reason why thecops were called, why they
pulled the van over, is becausethere was a report from a
(06:48):
citizen of observing a malestriking a female, hitting her.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
You know physically striking a female and I can only
imagine that it must have beenpretty severe for a random
stranger to call 911 and say I'mconcerned.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
And so that's that's what we have to keep in mind is
that was the whole reason whythey got pulled over in the
first place and then when itcuts to the body cam footage,
she's the one, Gabby's the onewho's all emotional.
Brian seems kind of cool andaloof and like no emotions, he's
not.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
he doesn't seem angry .
Speaker 2 (07:25):
He doesn't seem upset and Gabby's very physically and
visually upset and right awayshe's taking all the blame.
I was distracting him while hewas driving you know he was
upset at me this morning becauseI was cleaning the van and I'm
OCD and like taking on all thisblame.
But you know, the officersasked her.
(07:46):
We had a report of some of amale hitting a female and then
all of a sudden and I don'tquite understand why, but it
shifts to.
You know, brian's a victim andbecause of her behaviors he's
the one who gets put up in ahotel.
He's like how quickly thatstory shifted Because in my
opinion Gabby was very vocal andputting all of the blame on her
(08:10):
.
So if you're an officer thatmaybe hasn't had that training
on what reactive self-defenselooks like for somebody in an
abuse situation, you're gonnamiss it you're gonna think oh
yeah she's and I hate this thisphrase, so I say this gritting
my teeth is oh, she's crazy.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Which is exactly what Brian said to one of the
officers, right.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Oh, she's just that way.
She's just I'm fine.
I'm fine, instead of sayingwait a minute we would have the
report of you hitting her.
So we need to look at thisthrough a different lens.
And even then, anybody who says, oh, she's crazy, I'm always
going to question.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah, absolutely, and I mean not to pick this video
footage apart too much becausewe have a lot to get, but you're
right, the documentary openswith that scene.
It's the first time the publicis let in to see what's going on
between Gabby and Brian, in tosee what's going on between
(09:07):
Gabby and Brian, and it did seemto me that the officers were
not properly trained inresponding to domestic abuse
calls, you know, by way of theirresponse and all the things
that that followed by puttinghim into a hotel for victims of
domestic abuse, which is justoutrageous.
But looking at this as throughthe lens of situational
awareness, what are the specificwarning flags that we pick up
(09:33):
from that particular incidentand how could a person who's in
a situation like that, orobserving it or responding to it
, do better to protect eitherthemselves or someone else?
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Again, it's that somebody taking on all the
responsibility for how the otherperson that blame shifting,
taking it all on owning it.
A healthy relationship involvestwo people saying, hey, this is
the role I'm playing, this isthe role you're like is taking
responsibility for our ownpersonal actions.
But when someone's taking onall of that blame, then you have
(10:09):
to start to wonder and look atand consider gaslighting.
And this is why it's soimportant to have these
conversations is because most Imean the worst of the worst DV
situations domestic violence,domestic abuse.
Relationships don't start outwith those physical blows.
They start with thosepsychological attacks, that
psychological abuse which isgaslighting, which is making
(10:36):
another person think that it'sall in their head that they're
the ones that's the problem.
So anytime someone is taking onall of the blame and their
partner is letting them withoutsaying you know to my partner
honey, yes, I understand, but Ialso played a role in that, you
know.
So anytime there's that one,that's a huge red flag and
situational awareness for me tobe like that's off.
(10:58):
That's not a normal, healthybehavior in a healthy
relationship.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
So.
Clearly, looking back on thissituation prior to the incident
in Moab, there was that patternof abuse that family and friends
kind of put together.
After the fact, they saw thatthere was coercive control and a
lot of the other things thatwe're going to talk about, one
(11:24):
of them being making unilateraldecisions.
Tell us what that's about.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
So that's in reference to when Gabby tells
her mom and again this is comingfrom mom's perspective- in the
movie, but Gabby tells her momhey that we're moving to.
Florida and Gabby's mom's likewe didn't even know you were
dating, like Gabby hadn't hadthe conversation, saying, hey,
we're a couple, we're dating,which is a normal thing to talk
(11:50):
about, and now all of a suddenyou're saying you're moving.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
And wait a minute, like slow down a little bit.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
It's a big jump in commitment.
And then the next day they werein Florida.
So to me, why that matters isany abrupt life changes,
especially those when it'sisolating the individual from
their, their support network,their family, their friends, and
seemingly rushing the decisionLike let's just do it, let's go
tonight, let's go tomorrow, andthis isn't like, hey, let's go
(12:21):
camping for the weekend this isI'm moving many states away and
that takes planning, you know.
so if a partner is trying torush you into making something
that big of a life decision, orif you see your, your friend, in
a relationship and theirpartner is pushing them and
rushing them to make such a biglife decision, that again is
(12:43):
cause for pause and to ask andto get curious do you really
want to?
move to Florida.
Like tell me more about this.
I didn't even know you weredating.
Why the sudden urgency to moveto Florida?
Tell me more about that.
And then you know you can'tcontrol how an individual in a
relationship like that is goingto answer.
(13:03):
If they're going to be truthful, they're honest, or?
If they're going to pretendlike everything's fine and this
is great and we're just beingspontaneous, but still, it's one
of those where you're buildingmental notes.
I say, okay, well, this is anoff behavior.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
And this isn't.
I'm just making a note of it,Because again yes, there, there
have been.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
maybe in certain scenarios you've been talking to
your partner behind the scenesabout doing it and so people who
, don't know, you are like wow,that seems sudden.
It's kind of like beingcompared to overnight success
People don't know the 10 yearsspent or 20 years spent getting
to that point, but in a domesticabuse situation in a
relationship, that's again soimportant to be like okay, this
(13:45):
is one clue.
And the more you start to seeyou're looking for that pattern.
This falls in that pattern ofcontrolling behaviors, of
isolation.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah, because in this particular example, in addition
to making a unilateral decision, the unilateral decision
resulted in the isolation Rightand they moved to Florida.
Then they start van life and goon the road and so Gabby's
world is shrinking and shrinkingand shrinking until it truly is
(14:21):
only her and Brian out there inthat van, and all we know of it
is from the video.
Yeah, is all the video postsand the Instagram posts and the
photos that taken in retrospecttell a very different story, I
think, than what her friends andfamily thought was happening.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
And I think that's key Bria is in retrospect was
happening and I think that's keyMaria is in retrospect.
And one thing that I try reallyhard in my work is to not do be
fear mongering, like let's havea real conversation, because
again, okay, the previousboyfriend to Brian talks about
in the documentary that Gabbyand him had talked about doing
this van life.
(15:02):
She had had a dream to do that.
So when I took that intoconsideration, the fact that
Brian was like hey, let's do vanlife, okay.
Well, that makes sense.
I could reasonably comprehendthat.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Yeah, okay, if living in Florida with his parents
wasn't going well that, yeah,let's do this van life thing.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
It's the perfect time .
Let's go.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
But again, when you have the mental notes, it's like
wait, he's already isolated heronce you know.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
And then there's there's examples given in the
documentary of how Gabby wastreated by his mother while they
were living there with thingsBrian did her her friend, that
she uh Rose that her that was inflorida, that she met, and the
way brian treated rose and theway brian treated gabby anytime
gabby wanted to hang out withrose.
(15:52):
All of that now.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Now hey, let's do van lives, isn't some?
Oh well, yeah, he's trying tosupport her dreams.
All of a sudden, you're like no.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Look at this pattern of behavior.
This is further isolation.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
I appreciate you saying that you do not want to
be fear mongering, because whenwe look back at this and we say,
oh gosh, why didn't we allconnect the dots, why didn't we
do something, you know, toprevent this from happening,
this is not all to say.
We want you to be terrified andwe want to be questioning every
move that you know your friendsmake or that you make in order
(16:26):
to protect yourself becauseyou're just not safe.
No, that's not what it is.
It's to take a really honestlook at who you are engaged in a
relationship with, and are theytreating you and meeting the
expectations that you have for ahealthy relationship?
That's, that's truly what it is.
You mentioned the idea thatthere could have been planning
going on in the background, andyou know from what I took away
(16:49):
from the story Abby was working50 plus hours a week at a Taco
Bell trying to raise money sothat they could do van life, and
on the one hand, brian said,yeah, let's do van life, but on
the other hand, he berated herfor her choice to work at Taco
Bell and make money to supportvan life.
(17:09):
So there's a lot ofcontradictions in this behavior,
and that was not lost on Gabby,correct she?
She understood that he didn'tlike her working at Taco Bell.
She was doing what she felt wasthe right thing to do and so,
on the one hand, was doing whatshe felt was the right thing to
do and so, on the one hand, he'sjust being, you know,
contradictive and she was rightto question it at the time when
(17:32):
she did because she did that.
It was documented in textmessages, it was documented in
conversations, it was documentedin writing, including letters
that she wrote to him, right andin her journal.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
You know, you bringing up the Taco Bell thing,
that's financial abuse, and Idon't know what the exact
statistic is, but it's in thehigh 90% that domestic abuse
situations, relationships alsoinvolve financial abuse, because
it's got another way to controlsomeone.
If they don't have access tomoney, they don't have access to
their own means to.
(18:04):
Okay, this is not working forme, I'm going to move out.
This is not working for me.
Then they're stuck.
Then the victim feels like,well, what am I going to do?
This is my only source ofsurvival From everything I was
seeing is Brian never, ever, hadany self-awareness of his
(18:24):
behaviors.
He was very entitled, he wasvery narcissistic in his
behaviors.
He only cared about himself.
He only cared about what hewanted.
If you're in a relationshipwith someone, you deserve to be
respected and heard, even in adisagreement.
You can not have the sameopinions with your partner, but
(18:45):
it doesn't mean that you deservethe emotional abuse of making
you feel bad about your thoughtsor opinions.
It doesn't mean the mentalabuse, the gaslighting and the
put downs, the condescendingterms and words that Brian used
and repeatedly kept showing upand from everything that we saw
(19:09):
in that show is Gabby wasstarting to recognize that.
She was starting to say thisisn't okay with me.
The situation where she wassupposed to meet with Rose and
go out and she was runningreally late and Rose is texting
her where are you?
What's going on?
Well, here, brian had taken outher ID without telling her so
(19:30):
by the time Gabby realized it,she had to turn around, go back
to his parents' house to get herID and then go out.
That, right there, iscompletely unacceptable, and if
someone ever does that to you ina relationship, that is
definitely your sign.
This is not healthy and that'swhere we we talked about and
that's why you know what'sportrayed.
(19:52):
As Brian said, hey, let's dothis van life thing, because she
was starting to connect thedots and know that this wasn't
healthy, this is not what shewanted, and so he dangled that
dream of hers in front of herLike yeah, I'll do the van life
with you.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Let's go.
Yeah, hearing you say it likethat, it was very manipulative
and it was premeditated.
I think that abusive patternsescalate and they start out
small and even Gabby had said,well, he does that to me, but he
really does love me and I, heloves me so much I don't deserve
his love.
Yes, and it's that cycle ofabuse where there is, uh, the
(20:31):
incident, there is a cooling off, there is this love bombing,
honeymoon it's.
I'm sorry it's never going tohappen again.
You know, you're the mostwonderful person to me.
I can't live without you.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
I'm so sorry, it'll never happen again.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
I don't know about the apology part from Brian, but
I do know I can't live withoutyou, the crying because you're
not here with me.
I can't stand being away fromyou, huge flashing warning sign
for a person who is attemptingto control you through their
emotions and their behaviors.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
I'm thinking about this from anyone who may be
listening.
Who's?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
wondering am I in an?
Speaker 2 (21:12):
abusive relationship.
It's really hard because youdon't want to believe this
person who says they love you,who you love, who you've spent
time with, who you've had somegood times with.
It's hard to go.
You can't.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
It's kind of that whole.
How can somebody do that tosomebody else and you just don't
want to?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
believe that this person that you think you love,
that you think loves you could,could possibly have ill
intentions, and and so, foranyone who may be listening, who
is wondering, the mostimportant thing is to pay
attention to behaviors, becausewords can be empty if it doesn't
have actions to match and aperson's actions.
(21:51):
Our nonverbal communication isreally hard to fake.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
In that example.
I mean he admitted to taking it.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah, and he admitted that he didn't want her to go
out with.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Rose, and Rose is a pivotal figure in this
documentary because she doesstate in the show that she knew
immediately that he had donesomething to her.
She knew immediately that hewas trying to isolate her.
And I think it's easy to lookback again, you know, and say,
oh gosh, you know there was thisand this and this and I didn't
(22:25):
say anything.
But at the same time, this isyour friend, you're supporting
your friend and she's in lovewith this person and they've
made a decision together thatthey're going to build this life
together.
And hey, there's no blame here.
We're not blaming the family.
We're not blaming the family.
We're not blaming the victim,we're not blaming Rose, we're
not blaming.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Yeah, no.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
It's just that collectively coming together and
reviewing several years beforethe murder was very telling for
all of us.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Maria, I'd have to.
I'd be curious to ask you ifyou've ever seen or observed
unhealthy behaviors like that inany of your friends'
relationships.
And I ask that because I have agood friend and in one of her
previous relationships there wassome really unhealthy behaviors
and very scary behaviors thatwere abusive.
(23:20):
And she, because of the work Ido, I don't know if she never
wanted to talk about it, shedidn't want to share.
But you know, I found outthrough a third party and that
was really hard because I waslike do I confront her, do I say
something?
And I would ask other expertsin the field, like I know this
(23:41):
happened.
This has happened to my friendin her relationship.
It scares me because thestatistics say that this is
definitely increases her chancesof being seriously harmed or
even killed in her relationship.
And they all said you know, youneed to just keep showing up,
keep inviting her, stay in herlife, support her, ask questions
(24:09):
, don't be judgmental.
But also there's this fine lineof but don't set off alarm
bells in her partner becausethen he'll start isolating her
from you, which so I feel likeas an outsider, as a bystander,
someone who really cares aboutit is a fine line and it's
really hard.
There is no perfect answer, butI believe firmly that we need
to keep talking about thatbecause then it might help
people recognize and understandDon't isolate yourself from them
(24:32):
as much as possible.
Stay in their life as much aspossible.
You know I never have had theconversation with this friend,
but they are no longer in arelationship, thank goodness.
He moved states away and she hasstill never talked about it.
But now it's one of thosethings where I'm like it's tough
to be a loved one of someonebecause you feel so helpless and
(24:55):
again you see warning signs andyou're like how do I say
something.
How do I say something?
And really I think it's great.
Rose did such a great job ofstaying in Gabby's life, even
though Brian you know she talkedabout in the documentary the
first time she met Brian and howher and Gabby were talking and
hanging out and Brian sat off tothe side like he was some
(25:16):
parent watching, you know, at akid's date and or watching kids
play, and it was so strange toher right away she had an off
feeling about Brian and so Iguess I say all that simply to
say, and emphasize, there is noclear cut answer, but I think
(25:37):
and you could probably speakbest to this is what have you
heard from people who havegotten out of domestic abuse
relationships and are survivors,and how they wish people would
have said something, maybe earlyon.
Is there anything somebody couldsay early on, truly?
Speaker 1 (25:55):
What do we say?
So a lot of the things that youmentioned that experts told you
to do for your friend are thecorrect response, and then, of
course, there are a lot of otheroptions to supporting someone
who you suspect is in an abusiverelationship, and I think
that's why we're here todayright To respond to Joe Petito's
(26:16):
call to action to give peoplesound advice that they can use
and actions that they can takeif they suspect either they are
in an abusive relationship or aloved one is in an abusive
relationship.
To add a little bit to what youoffered, I want to say this I
(26:37):
think we can receive thoseresources and we can receive
that advice, as the bystanderActing on it takes confidence,
it takes courage and it takesyou need to know the person well
enough how they will be open toreceive these questions or open
(26:59):
to this conversation.
Receive these questions or opento this conversation All of
those things are key.
When you're talking to apotential victim of domestic
violence and it's going to takesome nuance you know that you
have to handle it in ways thatthe person is able to able and
ready to receive it and notbecome feel like they're being
(27:21):
judged or feel like you'retrying to interfere with their
relationship.
I've heard, you know, my CEO saywhen it's a parent who talks to
their child adult child, youknow and sees potential abuse in
the adult child's relationshipwith a spouse or a partner, that
can actually drive a wedgebetween the parent and the child
(27:44):
and make the child be closer tothe actual partner, and it's
what's called like star-crossedlovers um, everyone's against us
and you know, even your parentsdon't like me and then then the
abuser actually wins becausethe partner gets closer with the
abuser, and so one does have totread lightly.
(28:04):
But I do think if you suspectsevere violence or potential
lethality, you need to talk tothe victim and you need to refer
for services.
You need to give them resourceson how to get in touch with
someone, either the NationalDomestic Violence Hotline or
your local domestic violenceshelter.
So before we go any furtherwith the rest of the things that
(28:28):
we wanted to talk about today,let's just recap a little bit.
So we covered several differentareas that can be a warning sign
that a person is in a domesticviolence relationship and also
some actions we can take againstthem.
And just taking it from the top, we talked about taking all the
blame, putting the blame ononeself as the person who is
(28:49):
actually being abused, and yetyou are taking it on and saying
that I caused it, it's my fault,and so on.
Unilateral decisions,especially unilateral decisions
that lead to isolation fromfriends and family, and then
control disguised as concern.
We've also kind of touched onmanipulation and emotional abuse
(29:11):
by talking about you know, thetext messages of Brian crying,
saying he's crying all the timebecause she's working all the
time and doing things tointentionally upset Gabby and
then doing nice things to winher back.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
You know, I think, kind of continuing to pull on
the string of what.
What can we do and really getinto that point?
You mentioned talking to yourfriend if you have concerns.
I think to me it's the reminderthat they're already in a
controlling relationship andthey don't I've heard this from
(29:49):
survivors is don't they want?
They don't want to feel likethey're just getting into
another controlling relationshipor there's another person in
their life controlling theirlife, and so part of it is
staying curious with them, youknow, asking them questions like
well would you ever do that tosomeone, would you ever take
someone's ID?
It's kind of helping root itback into reality and saying
(30:12):
would you ever take someone's IDout just because you didn't
want them to go out, withouttelling them, making them drive
back and forth.
You know, oftentimes we hearwould you want that to happen to
your daughter?
What would you tell yourdaughter if that happened to
them?
And kind of helping them seethrough the fog.
Because I think a lot of whathappens well, I know a lot of
(30:33):
what happens in emotional andmental abuse with the
gaslighting you lose touch withyour reality.
Suddenly you don't know up fromdown and suddenly you do start
thinking I am the issue, I amthe crazy one.
You know you feel okay, if Icould just explain it better, if
I could just keep the vancleaner, if I could just manage
(30:57):
my OCD.
She mentions Gabby mentions inthe documentary why have I OCD?
And it, you know it reallyupsets Brian.
It's like do you?
Speaker 1 (31:05):
really.
You know, part of me right awaywas like did she really?
Speaker 2 (31:08):
or was that just a way that Brian manipulated her
and made her feel bad aboutherself?
And so it's.
It's getting curious and askingthose people and trying to
bring them back out, pullingthem back from that fog of all
the mental and emotional abuse.
The psychological abuse Again.
I feel that that psychologicalabuse, that coercive controlling
(31:31):
behaviors, just doesn't gettalked about enough.
Nobody.
It feels to me that many peopledon't realize how impactful
that is before it even getsphysical.
The controlling behaviors arevery damaging.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
You know to your point when you talked about how
do we approach this survivorwithout making her feel as if
she's in yet another controllingrelationship.
And we have those conversationsat Genesis as well, because I
don't work directly with clientsI'm not a licensed mental
health professional but thosewho do say that they position
(32:08):
themselves so that they're notcontrolling her decision-making.
Throughout her experience atGenesis, with services at
Genesis, it's designed to giveher agency and power over the
decisions and not judge herdecisions.
It's designed to like thisconversation is, give her
(32:30):
resources and information andeducation about the situation
and allow her to digest it anddecide how she will make a way
forward and what's acceptable.
And it's all about regainingagency over your life and being
empowered.
And, honestly, that is, I think, what you and I are trying to
(32:50):
do here today by dissectingparts of the story of what
happened to Gabby Petito and howBrian Laundrie's behaviors led
to her murder.
That's really why we're here.
His criticism, his control, hismanipulation, his obsession
(33:12):
with having her all to himselfescalated to the point where he
saw that she was slipping awayfrom him and if he could not
have her then no one would, andthat is a textbook pattern of
abusive behavior.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
And she, you know, obviously I've never met her, I
don't know her, but watching thedocumentary I could empathize
with what a wonderful, beautifulhuman.
I mean.
Her spirit was just seemed soloving and so light and caring
and just radiated this energythat drew people to her.
(33:52):
And so, of course, someone likea Brian is going to gravitate
towards that, because he'smissing that in his own life, so
he wants some of that gravitatetowards that, because he's
missing that in his own life, sohe wants some of that, and
what's frustrating is when thosepeople get with those beautiful
souls and they just drain themand so that's another behavior
(34:14):
or thing to notice is somebodywho was light and had dreams and
was, you know, well liked andhad all energy.
Now, all of a sudden it'schanged and that's the change in
behaviors, the change in thatpattern where all of a sudden
you're different, you're not thesame.
You know, if at the rightbefore they left for van life,
(34:38):
they, I believe, drove up to seebut it talks about her mom,
talks about hugging Gabby beforethey leave, and Gabby was just
sobbing and she was like honey,you know what's wrong, gabby,
what's going on?
And Gabby couldn't explain it,she couldn't exactly say, but
it's like she knew something wasoff, something was wrong, and
(34:59):
that's so often what happens isbecause we haven't really, or
that our individual has beenable to pick out those behaviors
.
Well gosh, that's reallycontrolling.
I don't like that.
That made me feel like I wascrazy, but I know what I
experienced and they're tryingto make me feel second guess
myself, starting to gaslight me,and so it's adding all this up.
(35:20):
That then hope.
You know, the whole goal is thehopeless with work I do is that
someone will notice and be ableto articulate this and to
recognize the behaviors.
And so when we pull out andfocus on just the behaviors, it
helps us separate.
Okay, this is my boyfriend of ayear, this is my.
You know, I've been with thisperson forever.
It's like, no, these are theboyfriend of a year.
This is my.
(35:40):
You know, I've been with thisperson forever.
It's like, no, these are thebehaviors and these behaviors
are not okay.
These behaviors are not typicalof a healthy relationship.
So I can separate myself fromthat.
Oh, I've been with this personfor a year and see these
behaviors are not okay with me,from anyone at any point, and
being able to articulate thatand say that gives us power,
(36:04):
gives us our power back, youknow, from someone who's trying
to take that away and say I'mnot okay with that and being
able to address it.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
I agree with that.
But yet we do walk a fine linehere, because if you are in an
abusive relationship, before youdecide that you're going to
exit or you're going to speak upor make a change, you do need
some safety planning.
Yes, yes, any expert will tellyou that you don't have to leave
(36:37):
the relationship to do safetyplanning.
Safety planning can be done atany time, and when I talk about
safety planning from like adomestic violence agency
perspective, it's the steps thatyou can take to prepare for
your own safety, to prevent asmuch as you can prevent from
happening to you by this abusivepartner.
(37:00):
And it can look like a lot ofdifferent things, because every
single person's situation isdifferent, and at Genesis, you
know we create an individualsafety plan for every single
client, so yours may look likeyou need to make sure you have
extra copies of your legaldocuments, that you are in some
(37:21):
way preparing financially foryour future to the best that
you're able.
For me, it may look like I haveto have a go bag ready in the
event that I absolutely have togo and I know where I'm going to
go, how I'm going to get there.
That's what safety planning is,and so safety planning is good
(37:44):
for everyone, for lots ofsituations.
It's not just for domesticviolence.
So, all of that being said, howdoes situational awareness
training complement safetyplanning?
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Great question and goes back to making those mental
notes To your point.
A safety plan is good for manypeople for many reasons.
And just to talk about, youknow, natural disaster, a
tornado, let's say you know.
So let's just pull back fromthis.
The conversation focused onsomebody in an abusive
relationship, because if youdon't think you're in a
(38:16):
relationship, it's easy to say,oh, I don't need that
information.
But let's say a naturaldisaster happens.
A go bag is something that'sgreat to have because it's got
maybe your prescriptions in it,it's got maybe a roll of cash
for what you first things thatyou need to do.
Maybe it's got a cell phonepack, maybe it's got an extra
change of clothes.
(38:36):
You know bottles of water, youknow water purifier, different
things like that.
You can Google and find lots ofdifferent options.
And again, safety planning,they can help you with that.
But if you don't even recognizethat, hey you know.
If the tornado sirens aren'teven going off, you're not even
going to know that.
Or if you don't, you know, ifyou move to the area and you
(38:58):
don't even recognize that it's atornado alley, you might not
even go and build the safetyplanning.
So, being situationally aware,learning to understand yourself
and boundaries, because a lot ofwhat that controlling behavior
is is crossing your boundaries,whether that's mental, emotional
or physical.
And so if you haven't done thework to really say what am I
(39:22):
comfortable with, what are myboundaries, and be aware of
those boundaries, it's going tobe harder to manage those
boundaries.
So, the more that you'relearning about a situational
awareness, which means you haveto know yourself and have
confidence in how you want tolive your life and what's okay
with you and what's not okaywith you, so you can recognize
(39:44):
early warning signs ofthreatening behavior to your
boundaries, whether that's themental and emotional boundary or
physical boundary.
Because again, as we discussed,the worst of the worst doesn't
start out with physical blows.
It starts out with controltactics, gaslighting, which is
mental and emotional abuse,which is not respecting
(40:05):
someone's mental and emotionalboundaries or psychological
safety.
So to me, understandingsituational awareness is having
that knowledge and being veryself-aware of who you are, what
you're okay with, what a healthyrelationship looks like for you
and how you're going to manageif someone's behavior is
(40:27):
infringing on your boundaries,is making you uncomfortable, is
making your intuition go off.
But if you haven't done thatwork, then you might just get a
weird feeling in your stomach,but not know how to articulate
it, not know how to connect thedots.
And so much of our power comesfrom knowledge.
So how much knowledge can Igive individuals, men and women?
(40:51):
that turns the verbiage so thatthey can articulate what's going
on so they know where to go tofor extra help and those who can
help know how to help them.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
I want to come back to that weird feeling in your
stomach because I have aquestion about that.
But the education that you'retalking about and taking the
time to actually reflect on yourown expectations for your life
is really important, and it'simportant to start early.
So we need to start with ourchildren to help them understand
(41:21):
who they are as a person andhow they want to live their
lives, what their expectationsare, and that's building blocks
right.
So it takes parents, it takesmentors, it takes the education
system all of us workingtogether to ensure that kids
will have a healthy outlookabout relationships and have
(41:42):
high expectations of others, buthigh expectations of themselves
and for themselves.
And so I think it's wonderfulto say that we should sit back
and consider all of these thingsand receive all of this
education and actively pursue it.
(42:04):
But I don't know that peoplealways find the time or have the
interest to practice it, and Ialso have concerns, and why I
say we should really start earlyis I have concerns about young
women being influenced by moviesand media and social media.
Of this.
You know he's.
He's coming in to sweep me offmy feet and he's going to take
me away and support me foreverand he's wealthy and handsome
and going to live this beautifullife, because that's a tale
(42:27):
that we've heard many times.
And Disney princesses theysometimes they work out and
sometimes they end up tragic,and so I think if we were to
find a point of reference inGabby's story, it could be that
she was very deeply in love withBrian, and sometimes that and
this is you know, this is socliche, but love can be blind
(42:52):
and you won't see what you'renot looking for.
Love can be blind and you won'tsee what you're not looking for
, and so it takes a very strongsupport network of people who
care about you that you check inwith, and they check in with
you to help you identify that.
Hey, you said these were yourexpectations for yourself and
for relationships, and what I'mseeing here doesn't match that.
(43:15):
So let's talk about what'schanged.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Right and I think that's great.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
That's getting curious with them.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
That's not accusing them of anything.
That's not making them, shamingthem.
It's getting curious, right.
Exactly, that's fantastic andto your point, we do need to
have these conversations withour kids younger and younger.
I go back to.
I always think about modelingbehavior.
I have 13 year old and almost12 year old boys, so as a mom, I
(43:43):
am very conscious of whatbehaviors am I modeling for my
boys as a female role in theirlife, and there are times where,
even now, I'll mess up or I'llcatch myself and I'll be like,
whoa, wait a minute.
That's not the behavior I wantto model for my boys, because I
want them to recognize what ahealthy relationship is and what
(44:07):
it's not, and that I thinkparents get a lot of pressure to
like you got to talk to yourkids and then it's like what do
I talk about?
Where should I start?
What's age appropriate?
And that's where a lot of mytraining, too, is.
I'm not speaking specificallyon domestic violence it really
all comes back to.
(44:27):
I'm trying to give individualsthe confidence in their own
personal safety skills.
But that self-confidence alsohelps you be present in
relationships, understand how tospeak up for yourself.
Have confidence in yourself toknow that it's okay for you to
have expectations.
You know that you can be kindand you can be bold and you can
(44:53):
go out and live a full life asyou have these tools to
recognize when a behavior is notokay and to deal with it right
away versus as it progresses andto your point.
Monsters are real and they looklike people.
Domestic abusers don't alwayslook like a scary monster.
Sometimes they come off as verysuccessful or very charismatic,
(45:18):
very charming.
No, charming is a verb, it's anaction.
So asking yourself, why arethey trying so hard?
That's where that love bombingcomes in.
Why are they trying so hard toconvince me to change my mind,
to change, you know, reset myboundary, to move my boundary.
(45:39):
And that's where this is anongoing conversation that's very
nuanced.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
Yes, and that questioning is key.
And so is that funny feeling inyour stomach, yes, and that
funny feeling in your stomach iscalled your intuition, yeah,
which is a topic you and I havetalked about before.
Let's just briefly review whatour intuition is telling us, how
we can recognize it, and so on.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Well, I think, to start off, it's always important
to emphasize that our intuitionis individual to each of us,
but it's important in two keyways that it's it's always a
reaction reactive to somestimulus in our environment.
I always say intuition is not aprankster.
It is not hiding behind thedoor waiting to jump out and see
(46:24):
how loud you yell.
Intuition is simply areactionary mechanism and,
because the other key point isit keeps us safe.
It is a fundamental lifepreservation skill.
So, if you keep those two keyfacts in mind at all times when
it comes to your intuition, thatit's not.
(46:46):
It's not a prankster.
It's not trying to trick me.
It's simply trying to let meknow that there's something in
my environment that's off andits whole purpose is like.
I just want to make sure thatoff thing isn't something that's
going to be life-threateningand that seems really grandiose.
But when you start thinkingabout your intuition in many
(47:07):
different ways, it's it's reallytrying to just give you a
really amazing life.
If you think about mazel'shierarchy of needs, right above
food, water, shelter is ourpsychological and physical
safety.
So our intuition is trying tomake sure that we have safety,
that we are safe, because rightabove safety is all of the
(47:31):
belonging, is all ofrelationships, is all of
relationships, is being creative, is being productive, is is
having this beautiful and fulllife.
So, with your intuition, if youjust learn to trust your
intuition, if you learn how yourintuition communicates with you
and you understand thatbiological process of intuition,
that's going to help you have amuch richer, a much more
(47:54):
mindful and present life,because you will start to lean
on and have such a good trustingrelationship with your
intuition that you can be morecalm, because you'll trust that
if there's something you need topay more attention to in your
environment, your intuition isgoing to let you know.
Most adults are routine, sosomething's off in our routine.
(48:17):
That's when our intuition stepsup and says this is different
than what I normally expect tosee here.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
This is the anomaly of the baseline.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
This is what you need to pay more attention to,
whatever it may be, any of oursenses picking up any sort of
input a, a sight, a sound, asmell.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
For sure it's a lot of things right.
We're hardwired for survivaland that system in us, that
hardwired system, is the sense,it's one of our senses that
allows us to pick up onanomalies.
That our brain is saying thatdoesn't compute, that's right
Something's off?
(48:56):
Yeah, something's off.
And so to your point and towhat you've said to me in the
past you have to trust your gutwhen you know you know.
It's as simple as that and Iwould encourage people to.
I don't have any resources onkind of learning along with your
intuition, but I wouldencourage people to look those
up because I think I just mightdo that myself.
(49:16):
But in the meantime they couldalways look at your website.
What is your website?
So people can learn more aboutsituational awareness.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
Sure, so my company is the Diamond Arrow Group and
that's our website is theDiamond Arrow Group, and I have
a lot of resources listed onthere.
I have a boundary workbook soyou can start thinking about
where are my boundaries, because, again, we talk about kids,
kids get one set of boundariesbecause their frontal lobe
(49:44):
development is.
you know, their emotionalintelligence is not fully
developed.
So the caretakers, theguardians, the parents in their
life, it's their responsibilityto set up those boundaries to
keep them safe.
But what doesn't typicallyhappen is that once they become
adults, it's the newconversation of okay, you need
to reevaluate your boundariesand figure out what's working
(50:05):
for you, what's not working foryou, and go from there.
So I have a boundary workbook.
You know, we put out lots oftravel safety, because that too,
our intuition might go off alot more when we're traveling,
because it's a new environment,so everything's off.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
I use the example when I sleep in hotel rooms the
first night is always reallyhard because my ears are always
listening and that's like theseare not the sounds of home.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
So all of these sounds are different.
Wait, we've got to payattention to that.
And then also, as well, my bookSharp Women, which talks about
our intuition as women ineveryday examples.
So each chapter focuses onscenarios that women typically
face.
Where something's off but Idon't know how to think about it
(50:49):
or I'm not quite sure how todescribe it, because no one's
talked to us in a way that wecan relate to that is hey, it's
okay for you to not stop whenthe salesperson at the kiosk in
the mall is like hey do you wanta free sample?
Do you want a free sample?
You can say no, thank you, andkeep walking right, because so
often women you know fromsociety perspective are told
(51:12):
well, don't be rude, be kind, begentle, be the caretaker.
And that's exactly whatmanipulators and predators are
looking for.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
Yeah, you can say no.
It's very easy Say no, I don'twant it.
And no means no and that's it.
So, kelly, thank you for beinghere and talking about this very
important topic with me today.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
And I hope to see you again soon.
Yes, Thank you so much forhaving on Maria.
It's great to have thisdiscussion and to continue
bringing the message andbringing awareness to such an
important topic.
Speaker 1 (51:43):
Genesis Women's Shelter and Support exists to
give women in abusive situationsa way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
(52:03):
domestic violence.
You can learn more atGenesisShelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
Genesis Women's Shelter, and onX at Genesis Shelter.
The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, seven
days a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.
In a recent interview titled Gabby Petito's Parents
Aren't Done Fighting.
In New Netflix Doc published onNetflixcom, joe Petito offered
this call to action.
I'd like to see countriesaround the world use her story
as a learning tool to get betterresources and information out
to everyone that needs help.
Today we'll do just that withKelly Sayre, expert in
(00:22):
situational awareness trainingand founder of the Diamond Arrow
Group.
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis, the podcast.
Gabby Petito was abused andultimately murdered by her
fiance, brian Laundrie, in 2021.
The recent Netflix documentaryAmerican Murder Gabby Petito
(00:46):
details Laundrie's years-longpattern of abuse as documented
in video, text messages, artwork, letters and more.
To raise awareness about thesigns of abusive patterns of
behavior, my guest, kelly Sayre,will help us take a closer look
at examples of abusive behaviorthrough the lens of situational
awareness, a method that helpsindividuals recognize and avoid
(01:08):
potential threats before theyescalate.
Kelly Sayre is a leader inempowering people with practical
tools and strategies for livingsafely and confidently.
As the founder of the DiamondArrow Group, kelly is passionate
about changing the self-defenseconversation group.
Kelly is passionate aboutchanging the self-defense
conversation, shifting the focusfrom primarily physical skills
to situational awareness andprevention, to equip people to
(01:31):
thrive unafraid and live lifeconfidently.
In her work, kelly partnerswith law enforcement
corporations, nonprofits andyouth organizations to deliver
impactful training in personalsafety, situational awareness
and workplace violenceprevention.
Kelly is certified in FEMA'sCommunity Emergency Response
Team Program, the Department ofHomeland Security's Active
(01:54):
Shooter Preparedness Workshopand Texas A&M Extension Services
Crisis Communications.
She is also a member of theAssociation of Threat Assessment
Professionals.
This episode discusses intimatepartner violence and femicide,
(02:20):
or on their website atthehotlineorg, or by contacting
Genesis Women's Shelter andSupport in Dallas, texas, at
214-946-HELP 214-946-4357, or onthe website at
genesisshelterorg.
Kelly.
Welcome back to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Thank you for having me.
It's good to see you.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
It's good to see you and I'm so glad you're here,
because we have a lot to talkabout today and many of us who
recently watched the Netflixdocumentary American Murder,
gabby Petito.
We have a lot of questions andthoughts about both the film and
the case and, in particular,for this conversation.
What did we miss?
How could this have beenprevented?
(03:03):
And a whole lot more.
But before we dive into thecase and the details, would you
remind us what is situationalawareness, because that is not
only the field that you are anexpert in.
It is the lens through whichwe're going to view and discuss
the related details today.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
So situational awareness is kind of a vague and
typically a militaristic ortactical definition.
So the one that I created issituational awareness, is using
all of your senses and intuitionto notice when something is off
in your environment, thenunderstanding what it means to
you and your safety and then,lastly, taking action to
(03:41):
preserve your safety.
To preserve your safety, andyou know, our discussion today I
think is is going to match upperfectly, because there's a lot
of things that when I watchedthe documentary it's like okay,
well, that's off.
It's not necessarily thisglaring warning sign, but it's
it's something off.
And the way the documentarydepicted it.
(04:02):
Gabby noticed things were offtoo, and maybe her parents and
her you know, her step parentsnoticed things were off but we
didn't know how to.
They didn't necessarily knowhow to what it meant to her
safety and how to take action tokeep her safe.
Again, not victim blaming, notblaming the parents.
But it's that real conversationof how often do we ignore our
(04:24):
intuition signals and think, oh,I'm probably overreacting, I'm
probably reading too much intoit.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah, absolutely so.
If you haven't seen thedocumentary, what we're
describing is kind of theconversation that goes
throughout the episodes of, inretrospect, gabby's parents,
friends and others looking backon the situation, thinking maybe
I should have taken a secondlook at what she said or what he
said or what either of them did, because the public doesn't
(04:54):
really enter the picture andunderstand what's going on until
the traffic stop in Moab.
That's when we first becomeaware as the general public that
something was going on,something was wrong between
Brian and Gabby.
And so what you've done veryexpertly is to identify some
examples of behavior by BrianLaundrie and that show his
(05:18):
abusive pattern of behavior, andwe're going to talk through
these so we can identify abusivebehaviors, how Gabby was
impacted and what we can learnfrom each of these.
And all of this is in responseto Joe Petito's call to action
that Gabby's story be shared asa learning tool to help others
with resources and information.
(05:39):
So we have a lot of exampleshere that we want to try to get
through, and what we are goingto talk about is not necessarily
following a timeline of theevents as they happen, so it's
not from beginning to endrelationship.
It kind of goes along followingthis story.
So how about if you set thestage for us on the first
(06:01):
example, kelly, of what yourefer to as taking all the blame
Right, and that's?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
in relation to when the documentary opens.
It opens with the body camfootage from the officers in
Utah and what's reallyinteresting about watching that
video is we are actually gettingto see her in real time, not
necessarily thinking about oh Ineed to say this, I need to say
(06:27):
that, just being completelyhonest, but reacting in a way or
saying things in a way thatsometimes we see most typical
abuse victims are, is they'retaking on all the blame.
You know, the reason why thecops were called, why they
pulled the van over, is becausethere was a report from a
(06:48):
citizen of observing a malestriking a female, hitting her.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
You know physically striking a female and I can only
imagine that it must have beenpretty severe for a random
stranger to call 911 and say I'mconcerned.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
And so that's that's what we have to keep in mind is
that was the whole reason whythey got pulled over in the
first place and then when itcuts to the body cam footage,
she's the one, Gabby's the onewho's all emotional.
Brian seems kind of cool andaloof and like no emotions, he's
not.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
he doesn't seem angry .
Speaker 2 (07:25):
He doesn't seem upset and Gabby's very physically and
visually upset and right awayshe's taking all the blame.
I was distracting him while hewas driving you know he was
upset at me this morning becauseI was cleaning the van and I'm
OCD and like taking on all thisblame.
But you know, the officersasked her.
(07:46):
We had a report of some of amale hitting a female and then
all of a sudden and I don'tquite understand why, but it
shifts to.
You know, brian's a victim andbecause of her behaviors he's
the one who gets put up in ahotel.
He's like how quickly thatstory shifted Because in my
opinion Gabby was very vocal andputting all of the blame on her
(08:10):
.
So if you're an officer thatmaybe hasn't had that training
on what reactive self-defenselooks like for somebody in an
abuse situation, you're gonnamiss it you're gonna think oh
yeah she's and I hate this thisphrase, so I say this gritting
my teeth is oh, she's crazy.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Which is exactly what Brian said to one of the
officers, right.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Oh, she's just that way.
She's just I'm fine.
I'm fine, instead of sayingwait a minute we would have the
report of you hitting her.
So we need to look at thisthrough a different lens.
And even then, anybody who says, oh, she's crazy, I'm always
going to question.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah, absolutely, and I mean not to pick this video
footage apart too much becausewe have a lot to get, but you're
right, the documentary openswith that scene.
It's the first time the publicis let in to see what's going on
between Gabby and Brian, in tosee what's going on between
(09:07):
Gabby and Brian, and it did seemto me that the officers were
not properly trained inresponding to domestic abuse
calls, you know, by way of theirresponse and all the things
that that followed by puttinghim into a hotel for victims of
domestic abuse, which is justoutrageous.
But looking at this as throughthe lens of situational
awareness, what are the specificwarning flags that we pick up
(09:33):
from that particular incidentand how could a person who's in
a situation like that, orobserving it or responding to it
, do better to protect eitherthemselves or someone else?
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Again, it's that somebody taking on all the
responsibility for how the otherperson that blame shifting,
taking it all on owning it.
A healthy relationship involvestwo people saying, hey, this is
the role I'm playing, this isthe role you're like is taking
responsibility for our ownpersonal actions.
But when someone's taking onall of that blame, then you have
(10:09):
to start to wonder and look atand consider gaslighting.
And this is why it's soimportant to have these
conversations is because most Imean the worst of the worst DV
situations domestic violence,domestic abuse.
Relationships don't start outwith those physical blows.
They start with thosepsychological attacks, that
psychological abuse which isgaslighting, which is making
(10:36):
another person think that it'sall in their head that they're
the ones that's the problem.
So anytime someone is taking onall of the blame and their
partner is letting them withoutsaying you know to my partner
honey, yes, I understand, but Ialso played a role in that, you
know.
So anytime there's that one,that's a huge red flag and
situational awareness for me tobe like that's off.
(10:58):
That's not a normal, healthybehavior in a healthy
relationship.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
So.
Clearly, looking back on thissituation prior to the incident
in Moab, there was that patternof abuse that family and friends
kind of put together.
After the fact, they saw thatthere was coercive control and a
lot of the other things thatwe're going to talk about, one
(11:24):
of them being making unilateraldecisions.
Tell us what that's about.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
So that's in reference to when Gabby tells
her mom and again this is comingfrom mom's perspective- in the
movie, but Gabby tells her momhey that we're moving to.
Florida and Gabby's mom's likewe didn't even know you were
dating, like Gabby hadn't hadthe conversation, saying, hey,
we're a couple, we're dating,which is a normal thing to talk
(11:50):
about, and now all of a suddenyou're saying you're moving.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
And wait a minute, like slow down a little bit.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
It's a big jump in commitment.
And then the next day they werein Florida.
So to me, why that matters isany abrupt life changes,
especially those when it'sisolating the individual from
their, their support network,their family, their friends, and
seemingly rushing the decisionLike let's just do it, let's go
tonight, let's go tomorrow, andthis isn't like, hey, let's go
(12:21):
camping for the weekend this isI'm moving many states away and
that takes planning, you know.
so if a partner is trying torush you into making something
that big of a life decision, orif you see your, your friend, in
a relationship and theirpartner is pushing them and
rushing them to make such a biglife decision, that again is
(12:43):
cause for pause and to ask andto get curious do you really
want to?
move to Florida.
Like tell me more about this.
I didn't even know you weredating.
Why the sudden urgency to moveto Florida?
Tell me more about that.
And then you know you can'tcontrol how an individual in a
relationship like that is goingto answer.
(13:03):
If they're going to be truthful, they're honest, or?
If they're going to pretendlike everything's fine and this
is great and we're just beingspontaneous, but still, it's one
of those where you're buildingmental notes.
I say, okay, well, this is anoff behavior.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
And this isn't.
I'm just making a note of it,Because again yes, there, there
have been.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
maybe in certain scenarios you've been talking to
your partner behind the scenesabout doing it and so people who
, don't know, you are like wow,that seems sudden.
It's kind of like beingcompared to overnight success
People don't know the 10 yearsspent or 20 years spent getting
to that point, but in a domesticabuse situation in a
relationship, that's again soimportant to be like okay, this
(13:45):
is one clue.
And the more you start to seeyou're looking for that pattern.
This falls in that pattern ofcontrolling behaviors, of
isolation.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah, because in this particular example, in addition
to making a unilateral decision, the unilateral decision
resulted in the isolation Rightand they moved to Florida.
Then they start van life and goon the road and so Gabby's
world is shrinking and shrinkingand shrinking until it truly is
(14:21):
only her and Brian out there inthat van, and all we know of it
is from the video.
Yeah, is all the video postsand the Instagram posts and the
photos that taken in retrospecttell a very different story, I
think, than what her friends andfamily thought was happening.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
And I think that's key Bria is in retrospect was
happening and I think that's keyMaria is in retrospect.
And one thing that I try reallyhard in my work is to not do be
fear mongering, like let's havea real conversation, because
again, okay, the previousboyfriend to Brian talks about
in the documentary that Gabbyand him had talked about doing
this van life.
(15:02):
She had had a dream to do that.
So when I took that intoconsideration, the fact that
Brian was like hey, let's do vanlife, okay.
Well, that makes sense.
I could reasonably comprehendthat.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Yeah, okay, if living in Florida with his parents
wasn't going well that, yeah,let's do this van life thing.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
It's the perfect time .
Let's go.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
But again, when you have the mental notes, it's like
wait, he's already isolated heronce you know.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
And then there's there's examples given in the
documentary of how Gabby wastreated by his mother while they
were living there with thingsBrian did her her friend, that
she uh Rose that her that was inflorida, that she met, and the
way brian treated rose and theway brian treated gabby anytime
gabby wanted to hang out withrose.
(15:52):
All of that now.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Now hey, let's do van lives, isn't some?
Oh well, yeah, he's trying tosupport her dreams.
All of a sudden, you're like no.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Look at this pattern of behavior.
This is further isolation.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
I appreciate you saying that you do not want to
be fear mongering, because whenwe look back at this and we say,
oh gosh, why didn't we allconnect the dots, why didn't we
do something, you know, toprevent this from happening,
this is not all to say.
We want you to be terrified andwe want to be questioning every
move that you know your friendsmake or that you make in order
(16:26):
to protect yourself becauseyou're just not safe.
No, that's not what it is.
It's to take a really honestlook at who you are engaged in a
relationship with, and are theytreating you and meeting the
expectations that you have for ahealthy relationship?
That's, that's truly what it is.
You mentioned the idea thatthere could have been planning
going on in the background, andyou know from what I took away
(16:49):
from the story Abby was working50 plus hours a week at a Taco
Bell trying to raise money sothat they could do van life, and
on the one hand, brian said,yeah, let's do van life, but on
the other hand, he berated herfor her choice to work at Taco
Bell and make money to supportvan life.
(17:09):
So there's a lot ofcontradictions in this behavior,
and that was not lost on Gabby,correct she?
She understood that he didn'tlike her working at Taco Bell.
She was doing what she felt wasthe right thing to do and so,
on the one hand, was doing whatshe felt was the right thing to
do and so, on the one hand, he'sjust being, you know,
contradictive and she was rightto question it at the time when
(17:32):
she did because she did that.
It was documented in textmessages, it was documented in
conversations, it was documentedin writing, including letters
that she wrote to him, right andin her journal.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
You know, you bringing up the Taco Bell thing,
that's financial abuse, and Idon't know what the exact
statistic is, but it's in thehigh 90% that domestic abuse
situations, relationships alsoinvolve financial abuse, because
it's got another way to controlsomeone.
If they don't have access tomoney, they don't have access to
their own means to.
(18:04):
Okay, this is not working forme, I'm going to move out.
This is not working for me.
Then they're stuck.
Then the victim feels like,well, what am I going to do?
This is my only source ofsurvival From everything I was
seeing is Brian never, ever, hadany self-awareness of his
(18:24):
behaviors.
He was very entitled, he wasvery narcissistic in his
behaviors.
He only cared about himself.
He only cared about what hewanted.
If you're in a relationshipwith someone, you deserve to be
respected and heard, even in adisagreement.
You can not have the sameopinions with your partner, but
(18:45):
it doesn't mean that you deservethe emotional abuse of making
you feel bad about your thoughtsor opinions.
It doesn't mean the mentalabuse, the gaslighting and the
put downs, the condescendingterms and words that Brian used
and repeatedly kept showing upand from everything that we saw
(19:09):
in that show is Gabby wasstarting to recognize that.
She was starting to say thisisn't okay with me.
The situation where she wassupposed to meet with Rose and
go out and she was runningreally late and Rose is texting
her where are you?
What's going on?
Well, here, brian had taken outher ID without telling her so
(19:30):
by the time Gabby realized it,she had to turn around, go back
to his parents' house to get herID and then go out.
That, right there, iscompletely unacceptable, and if
someone ever does that to you ina relationship, that is
definitely your sign.
This is not healthy and that'swhere we we talked about and
that's why you know what'sportrayed.
(19:52):
As Brian said, hey, let's dothis van life thing, because she
was starting to connect thedots and know that this wasn't
healthy, this is not what shewanted, and so he dangled that
dream of hers in front of herLike yeah, I'll do the van life
with you.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Let's go.
Yeah, hearing you say it likethat, it was very manipulative
and it was premeditated.
I think that abusive patternsescalate and they start out
small and even Gabby had said,well, he does that to me, but he
really does love me and I, heloves me so much I don't deserve
his love.
Yes, and it's that cycle ofabuse where there is, uh, the
(20:31):
incident, there is a cooling off, there is this love bombing,
honeymoon it's.
I'm sorry it's never going tohappen again.
You know, you're the mostwonderful person to me.
I can't live without you.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
I'm so sorry, it'll never happen again.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
I don't know about the apology part from Brian, but
I do know I can't live withoutyou, the crying because you're
not here with me.
I can't stand being away fromyou, huge flashing warning sign
for a person who is attemptingto control you through their
emotions and their behaviors.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
I'm thinking about this from anyone who may be
listening.
Who's?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
wondering am I in an?
Speaker 2 (21:12):
abusive relationship.
It's really hard because youdon't want to believe this
person who says they love you,who you love, who you've spent
time with, who you've had somegood times with.
It's hard to go.
You can't.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
It's kind of that whole.
How can somebody do that tosomebody else and you just don't
want to?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
believe that this person that you think you love,
that you think loves you could,could possibly have ill
intentions, and and so, foranyone who may be listening, who
is wondering, the mostimportant thing is to pay
attention to behaviors, becausewords can be empty if it doesn't
have actions to match and aperson's actions.
(21:51):
Our nonverbal communication isreally hard to fake.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
In that example.
I mean he admitted to taking it.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah, and he admitted that he didn't want her to go
out with.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Rose, and Rose is a pivotal figure in this
documentary because she doesstate in the show that she knew
immediately that he had donesomething to her.
She knew immediately that hewas trying to isolate her.
And I think it's easy to lookback again, you know, and say,
oh gosh, you know there was thisand this and this and I didn't
(22:25):
say anything.
But at the same time, this isyour friend, you're supporting
your friend and she's in lovewith this person and they've
made a decision together thatthey're going to build this life
together.
And hey, there's no blame here.
We're not blaming the family.
We're not blaming the family.
We're not blaming the victim,we're not blaming Rose, we're
not blaming.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Yeah, no.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
It's just that collectively coming together and
reviewing several years beforethe murder was very telling for
all of us.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Maria, I'd have to.
I'd be curious to ask you ifyou've ever seen or observed
unhealthy behaviors like that inany of your friends'
relationships.
And I ask that because I have agood friend and in one of her
previous relationships there wassome really unhealthy behaviors
and very scary behaviors thatwere abusive.
(23:20):
And she, because of the work Ido, I don't know if she never
wanted to talk about it, shedidn't want to share.
But you know, I found outthrough a third party and that
was really hard because I waslike do I confront her, do I say
something?
And I would ask other expertsin the field, like I know this
(23:41):
happened.
This has happened to my friendin her relationship.
It scares me because thestatistics say that this is
definitely increases her chancesof being seriously harmed or
even killed in her relationship.
And they all said you know, youneed to just keep showing up,
keep inviting her, stay in herlife, support her, ask questions
(24:09):
, don't be judgmental.
But also there's this fine lineof but don't set off alarm
bells in her partner becausethen he'll start isolating her
from you, which so I feel likeas an outsider, as a bystander,
someone who really cares aboutit is a fine line and it's
really hard.
There is no perfect answer, butI believe firmly that we need
to keep talking about thatbecause then it might help
people recognize and understandDon't isolate yourself from them
(24:32):
as much as possible.
Stay in their life as much aspossible.
You know I never have had theconversation with this friend,
but they are no longer in arelationship, thank goodness.
He moved states away and she hasstill never talked about it.
But now it's one of thosethings where I'm like it's tough
to be a loved one of someonebecause you feel so helpless and
(24:55):
again you see warning signs andyou're like how do I say
something.
How do I say something?
And really I think it's great.
Rose did such a great job ofstaying in Gabby's life, even
though Brian you know she talkedabout in the documentary the
first time she met Brian and howher and Gabby were talking and
hanging out and Brian sat off tothe side like he was some
(25:16):
parent watching, you know, at akid's date and or watching kids
play, and it was so strange toher right away she had an off
feeling about Brian and so Iguess I say all that simply to
say, and emphasize, there is noclear cut answer, but I think
(25:37):
and you could probably speakbest to this is what have you
heard from people who havegotten out of domestic abuse
relationships and are survivors,and how they wish people would
have said something, maybe earlyon.
Is there anything somebody couldsay early on, truly?
Speaker 1 (25:55):
What do we say?
So a lot of the things that youmentioned that experts told you
to do for your friend are thecorrect response, and then, of
course, there are a lot of otheroptions to supporting someone
who you suspect is in an abusiverelationship, and I think
that's why we're here todayright To respond to Joe Petito's
(26:16):
call to action to give peoplesound advice that they can use
and actions that they can takeif they suspect either they are
in an abusive relationship or aloved one is in an abusive
relationship.
To add a little bit to what youoffered, I want to say this I
(26:37):
think we can receive thoseresources and we can receive
that advice, as the bystanderActing on it takes confidence,
it takes courage and it takesyou need to know the person well
enough how they will be open toreceive these questions or open
(26:59):
to this conversation.
Receive these questions or opento this conversation All of
those things are key.
When you're talking to apotential victim of domestic
violence and it's going to takesome nuance you know that you
have to handle it in ways thatthe person is able to able and
ready to receive it and notbecome feel like they're being
(27:21):
judged or feel like you'retrying to interfere with their
relationship.
I've heard, you know, my CEO saywhen it's a parent who talks to
their child adult child, youknow and sees potential abuse in
the adult child's relationshipwith a spouse or a partner, that
can actually drive a wedgebetween the parent and the child
(27:44):
and make the child be closer tothe actual partner, and it's
what's called like star-crossedlovers um, everyone's against us
and you know, even your parentsdon't like me and then then the
abuser actually wins becausethe partner gets closer with the
abuser, and so one does have totread lightly.
(28:04):
But I do think if you suspectsevere violence or potential
lethality, you need to talk tothe victim and you need to refer
for services.
You need to give them resourceson how to get in touch with
someone, either the NationalDomestic Violence Hotline or
your local domestic violenceshelter.
So before we go any furtherwith the rest of the things that
(28:28):
we wanted to talk about today,let's just recap a little bit.
So we covered several differentareas that can be a warning sign
that a person is in a domesticviolence relationship and also
some actions we can take againstthem.
And just taking it from the top, we talked about taking all the
blame, putting the blame ononeself as the person who is
(28:49):
actually being abused, and yetyou are taking it on and saying
that I caused it, it's my fault,and so on.
Unilateral decisions,especially unilateral decisions
that lead to isolation fromfriends and family, and then
control disguised as concern.
We've also kind of touched onmanipulation and emotional abuse
(29:11):
by talking about you know, thetext messages of Brian crying,
saying he's crying all the timebecause she's working all the
time and doing things tointentionally upset Gabby and
then doing nice things to winher back.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
You know, I think, kind of continuing to pull on
the string of what.
What can we do and really getinto that point?
You mentioned talking to yourfriend if you have concerns.
I think to me it's the reminderthat they're already in a
controlling relationship andthey don't I've heard this from
(29:49):
survivors is don't they want?
They don't want to feel likethey're just getting into
another controlling relationshipor there's another person in
their life controlling theirlife, and so part of it is
staying curious with them, youknow, asking them questions like
well would you ever do that tosomeone, would you ever take
someone's ID?
It's kind of helping root itback into reality and saying
(30:12):
would you ever take someone's IDout just because you didn't
want them to go out, withouttelling them, making them drive
back and forth.
You know, oftentimes we hearwould you want that to happen to
your daughter?
What would you tell yourdaughter if that happened to
them?
And kind of helping them seethrough the fog.
Because I think a lot of whathappens well, I know a lot of
(30:33):
what happens in emotional andmental abuse with the
gaslighting you lose touch withyour reality.
Suddenly you don't know up fromdown and suddenly you do start
thinking I am the issue, I amthe crazy one.
You know you feel okay, if Icould just explain it better, if
I could just keep the vancleaner, if I could just manage
(30:57):
my OCD.
She mentions Gabby mentions inthe documentary why have I OCD?
And it, you know it reallyupsets Brian.
It's like do you?
Speaker 1 (31:05):
really.
You know, part of me right awaywas like did she really?
Speaker 2 (31:08):
or was that just a way that Brian manipulated her
and made her feel bad aboutherself?
And so it's.
It's getting curious and askingthose people and trying to
bring them back out, pullingthem back from that fog of all
the mental and emotional abuse.
The psychological abuse Again.
I feel that that psychologicalabuse, that coercive controlling
(31:31):
behaviors, just doesn't gettalked about enough.
Nobody.
It feels to me that many peopledon't realize how impactful
that is before it even getsphysical.
The controlling behaviors arevery damaging.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
You know to your point when you talked about how
do we approach this survivorwithout making her feel as if
she's in yet another controllingrelationship.
And we have those conversationsat Genesis as well, because I
don't work directly with clientsI'm not a licensed mental
health professional but thosewho do say that they position
(32:08):
themselves so that they're notcontrolling her decision-making.
Throughout her experience atGenesis, with services at
Genesis, it's designed to giveher agency and power over the
decisions and not judge herdecisions.
It's designed to like thisconversation is, give her
(32:30):
resources and information andeducation about the situation
and allow her to digest it anddecide how she will make a way
forward and what's acceptable.
And it's all about regainingagency over your life and being
empowered.
And, honestly, that is, I think, what you and I are trying to
(32:50):
do here today by dissectingparts of the story of what
happened to Gabby Petito and howBrian Laundrie's behaviors led
to her murder.
That's really why we're here.
His criticism, his control, hismanipulation, his obsession
(33:12):
with having her all to himselfescalated to the point where he
saw that she was slipping awayfrom him and if he could not
have her then no one would, andthat is a textbook pattern of
abusive behavior.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
And she, you know, obviously I've never met her, I
don't know her, but watching thedocumentary I could empathize
with what a wonderful, beautifulhuman.
I mean.
Her spirit was just seemed soloving and so light and caring
and just radiated this energythat drew people to her.
(33:52):
And so, of course, someone likea Brian is going to gravitate
towards that, because he'smissing that in his own life, so
he wants some of that gravitatetowards that, because he's
missing that in his own life, sohe wants some of that, and
what's frustrating is when thosepeople get with those beautiful
souls and they just drain themand so that's another behavior
(34:14):
or thing to notice is somebodywho was light and had dreams and
was, you know, well liked andhad all energy.
Now, all of a sudden it'schanged and that's the change in
behaviors, the change in thatpattern where all of a sudden
you're different, you're not thesame.
You know, if at the rightbefore they left for van life,
(34:38):
they, I believe, drove up to seebut it talks about her mom,
talks about hugging Gabby beforethey leave, and Gabby was just
sobbing and she was like honey,you know what's wrong, gabby,
what's going on?
And Gabby couldn't explain it,she couldn't exactly say, but
it's like she knew something wasoff, something was wrong, and
(34:59):
that's so often what happens isbecause we haven't really, or
that our individual has beenable to pick out those behaviors
.
Well gosh, that's reallycontrolling.
I don't like that.
That made me feel like I wascrazy, but I know what I
experienced and they're tryingto make me feel second guess
myself, starting to gaslight me,and so it's adding all this up.
(35:20):
That then hope.
You know, the whole goal is thehopeless with work I do is that
someone will notice and be ableto articulate this and to
recognize the behaviors.
And so when we pull out andfocus on just the behaviors, it
helps us separate.
Okay, this is my boyfriend of ayear, this is my.
You know, I've been with thisperson forever.
It's like, no, these are theboyfriend of a year.
This is my.
(35:40):
You know, I've been with thisperson forever.
It's like, no, these are thebehaviors and these behaviors
are not okay.
These behaviors are not typicalof a healthy relationship.
So I can separate myself fromthat.
Oh, I've been with this personfor a year and see these
behaviors are not okay with me,from anyone at any point, and
being able to articulate thatand say that gives us power,
(36:04):
gives us our power back, youknow, from someone who's trying
to take that away and say I'mnot okay with that and being
able to address it.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
I agree with that.
But yet we do walk a fine linehere, because if you are in an
abusive relationship, before youdecide that you're going to
exit or you're going to speak upor make a change, you do need
some safety planning.
Yes, yes, any expert will tellyou that you don't have to leave
(36:37):
the relationship to do safetyplanning.
Safety planning can be done atany time, and when I talk about
safety planning from like adomestic violence agency
perspective, it's the steps thatyou can take to prepare for
your own safety, to prevent asmuch as you can prevent from
happening to you by this abusivepartner.
(37:00):
And it can look like a lot ofdifferent things, because every
single person's situation isdifferent, and at Genesis, you
know we create an individualsafety plan for every single
client, so yours may look likeyou need to make sure you have
extra copies of your legaldocuments, that you are in some
(37:21):
way preparing financially foryour future to the best that
you're able.
For me, it may look like I haveto have a go bag ready in the
event that I absolutely have togo and I know where I'm going to
go, how I'm going to get there.
That's what safety planning is,and so safety planning is good
(37:44):
for everyone, for lots ofsituations.
It's not just for domesticviolence.
So, all of that being said, howdoes situational awareness
training complement safetyplanning?
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Great question and goes back to making those mental
notes To your point.
A safety plan is good for manypeople for many reasons.
And just to talk about, youknow, natural disaster, a
tornado, let's say you know.
So let's just pull back fromthis.
The conversation focused onsomebody in an abusive
relationship, because if youdon't think you're in a
(38:16):
relationship, it's easy to say,oh, I don't need that
information.
But let's say a naturaldisaster happens.
A go bag is something that'sgreat to have because it's got
maybe your prescriptions in it,it's got maybe a roll of cash
for what you first things thatyou need to do.
Maybe it's got a cell phonepack, maybe it's got an extra
change of clothes.
(38:36):
You know bottles of water, youknow water purifier, different
things like that.
You can Google and find lots ofdifferent options.
And again, safety planning,they can help you with that.
But if you don't even recognizethat, hey you know.
If the tornado sirens aren'teven going off, you're not even
going to know that.
Or if you don't, you know, ifyou move to the area and you
(38:58):
don't even recognize that it's atornado alley, you might not
even go and build the safetyplanning.
So, being situationally aware,learning to understand yourself
and boundaries, because a lot ofwhat that controlling behavior
is is crossing your boundaries,whether that's mental, emotional
or physical.
And so if you haven't done thework to really say what am I
(39:22):
comfortable with, what are myboundaries, and be aware of
those boundaries, it's going tobe harder to manage those
boundaries.
So, the more that you'relearning about a situational
awareness, which means you haveto know yourself and have
confidence in how you want tolive your life and what's okay
with you and what's not okaywith you, so you can recognize
(39:44):
early warning signs ofthreatening behavior to your
boundaries, whether that's themental and emotional boundary or
physical boundary.
Because again, as we discussed,the worst of the worst doesn't
start out with physical blows.
It starts out with controltactics, gaslighting, which is
mental and emotional abuse,which is not respecting
(40:05):
someone's mental and emotionalboundaries or psychological
safety.
So to me, understandingsituational awareness is having
that knowledge and being veryself-aware of who you are, what
you're okay with, what a healthyrelationship looks like for you
and how you're going to manageif someone's behavior is
(40:27):
infringing on your boundaries,is making you uncomfortable, is
making your intuition go off.
But if you haven't done thatwork, then you might just get a
weird feeling in your stomach,but not know how to articulate
it, not know how to connect thedots.
And so much of our power comesfrom knowledge.
So how much knowledge can Igive individuals, men and women?
(40:51):
that turns the verbiage so thatthey can articulate what's going
on so they know where to go tofor extra help and those who can
help know how to help them.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
I want to come back to that weird feeling in your
stomach because I have aquestion about that.
But the education that you'retalking about and taking the
time to actually reflect on yourown expectations for your life
is really important, and it'simportant to start early.
So we need to start with ourchildren to help them understand
(41:21):
who they are as a person andhow they want to live their
lives, what their expectationsare, and that's building blocks
right.
So it takes parents, it takesmentors, it takes the education
system all of us workingtogether to ensure that kids
will have a healthy outlookabout relationships and have
(41:42):
high expectations of others, buthigh expectations of themselves
and for themselves.
And so I think it's wonderfulto say that we should sit back
and consider all of these thingsand receive all of this
education and actively pursue it.
(42:04):
But I don't know that peoplealways find the time or have the
interest to practice it, and Ialso have concerns, and why I
say we should really start earlyis I have concerns about young
women being influenced by moviesand media and social media.
Of this.
You know he's.
He's coming in to sweep me offmy feet and he's going to take
me away and support me foreverand he's wealthy and handsome
and going to live this beautifullife, because that's a tale
(42:27):
that we've heard many times.
And Disney princesses theysometimes they work out and
sometimes they end up tragic,and so I think if we were to
find a point of reference inGabby's story, it could be that
she was very deeply in love withBrian, and sometimes that and
this is you know, this is socliche, but love can be blind
(42:52):
and you won't see what you'renot looking for.
Love can be blind and you won'tsee what you're not looking for
, and so it takes a very strongsupport network of people who
care about you that you check inwith, and they check in with
you to help you identify that.
Hey, you said these were yourexpectations for yourself and
for relationships, and what I'mseeing here doesn't match that.
(43:15):
So let's talk about what'schanged.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Right and I think that's great.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
That's getting curious with them.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
That's not accusing them of anything.
That's not making them, shamingthem.
It's getting curious, right.
Exactly, that's fantastic andto your point, we do need to
have these conversations withour kids younger and younger.
I go back to.
I always think about modelingbehavior.
I have 13 year old and almost12 year old boys, so as a mom, I
(43:43):
am very conscious of whatbehaviors am I modeling for my
boys as a female role in theirlife, and there are times where,
even now, I'll mess up or I'llcatch myself and I'll be like,
whoa, wait a minute.
That's not the behavior I wantto model for my boys, because I
want them to recognize what ahealthy relationship is and what
(44:07):
it's not, and that I thinkparents get a lot of pressure to
like you got to talk to yourkids and then it's like what do
I talk about?
Where should I start?
What's age appropriate?
And that's where a lot of mytraining, too, is.
I'm not speaking specificallyon domestic violence it really
all comes back to.
(44:27):
I'm trying to give individualsthe confidence in their own
personal safety skills.
But that self-confidence alsohelps you be present in
relationships, understand how tospeak up for yourself.
Have confidence in yourself toknow that it's okay for you to
have expectations.
You know that you can be kindand you can be bold and you can
(44:53):
go out and live a full life asyou have these tools to
recognize when a behavior is notokay and to deal with it right
away versus as it progresses andto your point.
Monsters are real and they looklike people.
Domestic abusers don't alwayslook like a scary monster.
Sometimes they come off as verysuccessful or very charismatic,
(45:18):
very charming.
No, charming is a verb, it's anaction.
So asking yourself, why arethey trying so hard?
That's where that love bombingcomes in.
Why are they trying so hard toconvince me to change my mind,
to change, you know, reset myboundary, to move my boundary.
(45:39):
And that's where this is anongoing conversation that's very
nuanced.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
Yes, and that questioning is key.
And so is that funny feeling inyour stomach, yes, and that
funny feeling in your stomach iscalled your intuition, yeah,
which is a topic you and I havetalked about before.
Let's just briefly review whatour intuition is telling us, how
we can recognize it, and so on.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Well, I think, to start off, it's always important
to emphasize that our intuitionis individual to each of us,
but it's important in two keyways that it's it's always a
reaction reactive to somestimulus in our environment.
I always say intuition is not aprankster.
It is not hiding behind thedoor waiting to jump out and see
(46:24):
how loud you yell.
Intuition is simply areactionary mechanism and,
because the other key point isit keeps us safe.
It is a fundamental lifepreservation skill.
So, if you keep those two keyfacts in mind at all times when
it comes to your intuition, thatit's not.
(46:46):
It's not a prankster.
It's not trying to trick me.
It's simply trying to let meknow that there's something in
my environment that's off andits whole purpose is like.
I just want to make sure thatoff thing isn't something that's
going to be life-threateningand that seems really grandiose.
But when you start thinkingabout your intuition in many
(47:07):
different ways, it's it's reallytrying to just give you a
really amazing life.
If you think about mazel'shierarchy of needs, right above
food, water, shelter is ourpsychological and physical
safety.
So our intuition is trying tomake sure that we have safety,
that we are safe, because rightabove safety is all of the
(47:31):
belonging, is all ofrelationships, is all of
relationships, is being creative, is being productive, is is
having this beautiful and fulllife.
So, with your intuition, if youjust learn to trust your
intuition, if you learn how yourintuition communicates with you
and you understand thatbiological process of intuition,
that's going to help you have amuch richer, a much more
(47:54):
mindful and present life,because you will start to lean
on and have such a good trustingrelationship with your
intuition that you can be morecalm, because you'll trust that
if there's something you need topay more attention to in your
environment, your intuition isgoing to let you know.
Most adults are routine, sosomething's off in our routine.
(48:17):
That's when our intuition stepsup and says this is different
than what I normally expect tosee here.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
This is the anomaly of the baseline.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
This is what you need to pay more attention to,
whatever it may be, any of oursenses picking up any sort of
input a, a sight, a sound, asmell.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
For sure it's a lot of things right.
We're hardwired for survivaland that system in us, that
hardwired system, is the sense,it's one of our senses that
allows us to pick up onanomalies.
That our brain is saying thatdoesn't compute, that's right
Something's off?
(48:56):
Yeah, something's off.
And so to your point and towhat you've said to me in the
past you have to trust your gutwhen you know you know.
It's as simple as that and Iwould encourage people to.
I don't have any resources onkind of learning along with your
intuition, but I wouldencourage people to look those
up because I think I just mightdo that myself.
(49:16):
But in the meantime they couldalways look at your website.
What is your website?
So people can learn more aboutsituational awareness.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
Sure, so my company is the Diamond Arrow Group and
that's our website is theDiamond Arrow Group, and I have
a lot of resources listed onthere.
I have a boundary workbook soyou can start thinking about
where are my boundaries, because, again, we talk about kids,
kids get one set of boundariesbecause their frontal lobe
(49:44):
development is.
you know, their emotionalintelligence is not fully
developed.
So the caretakers, theguardians, the parents in their
life, it's their responsibilityto set up those boundaries to
keep them safe.
But what doesn't typicallyhappen is that once they become
adults, it's the newconversation of okay, you need
to reevaluate your boundariesand figure out what's working
(50:05):
for you, what's not working foryou, and go from there.
So I have a boundary workbook.
You know, we put out lots oftravel safety, because that too,
our intuition might go off alot more when we're traveling,
because it's a new environment,so everything's off.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
I use the example when I sleep in hotel rooms the
first night is always reallyhard because my ears are always
listening and that's like theseare not the sounds of home.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
So all of these sounds are different.
Wait, we've got to payattention to that.
And then also, as well, my bookSharp Women, which talks about
our intuition as women ineveryday examples.
So each chapter focuses onscenarios that women typically
face.
Where something's off but Idon't know how to think about it
(50:49):
or I'm not quite sure how todescribe it, because no one's
talked to us in a way that wecan relate to that is hey, it's
okay for you to not stop whenthe salesperson at the kiosk in
the mall is like hey do you wanta free sample?
Do you want a free sample?
You can say no, thank you, andkeep walking right, because so
often women you know fromsociety perspective are told
(51:12):
well, don't be rude, be kind, begentle, be the caretaker.
And that's exactly whatmanipulators and predators are
looking for.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
Yeah, you can say no.
It's very easy Say no, I don'twant it.
And no means no and that's it.
So, kelly, thank you for beinghere and talking about this very
important topic with me today.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
And I hope to see you again soon.
Yes, Thank you so much forhaving on Maria.
It's great to have thisdiscussion and to continue
bringing the message andbringing awareness to such an
important topic.
Speaker 1 (51:43):
Genesis Women's Shelter and Support exists to
give women in abusive situationsa way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
(52:03):
domestic violence.
You can learn more atGenesisShelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
Genesis Women's Shelter, and onX at Genesis Shelter.
The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, seven
days a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.
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