Navigating the Stages of Change to Empower Domestic Violence Survivors and Service Providers

Uncover the profound journey of transformation faced by domestic violence survivors as we sit down with Ruth Guerreiro and Jordyn Lawson from Genesis Women's Shelter & Support. In this episode, we discuss how the transtheoretical model of change, a tool often used for weight loss and smoking cessation, can be a lifeline for those navigating the complexities of abuse. Discover the emotional and psychological stages survivors traverse, from the survival-focused pre-contemplation stage to the empowering action stage, and learn how understanding these stages can significantly enhance support strategies.

Ruth and Jordyn guide us through the intricate dynamics of these stages, emphasizing the non-linear path survivors often tread. By sharing relatable examples, like the challenges of adhering to a healthier diet, we illuminate the nuanced process of change that transcends typical setbacks and relapses. The discussion underscores the importance of meeting survivors where they are, recognizing that what might seem like regression could be a strategic decision for survival amidst limited and unsafe options.

This episode offers opportunities for survivors, service providers, and loved ones to both understand and apply the stages of change model to experiences of domestic violence. For those who want to learn more, the Stages of Change training can be scheduled at https://www.genesisshelter.org/get-involved/request-a-speaker/

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today we take a close look at the trans-theoretical
model of change, or stages ofchange, through the lens of
working with domestic violencesurvivors with Ruth Guerrero and
Jordan Lawson.
I'm Maria McMullin, and this isGenesis, the podcast.
The trans-theoretical model ofchange was first published in

(00:22):
1977 by the late James Prochaska, professor of psychology at the
University of Rhode Island.
The model remains foundationalto understanding human behavior
and behavior modification and isapplied largely to lifestyle
changes that positively impacthealth outcomes, such as weight
loss and smoking cessation, butthe model is also applied to

(00:43):
many other areas where changingbehavior can benefit an
individual, including survivorsof domestic violence.
Trans-theoretical simply meansapplying different theories to
develop a process In thisapplication.
The trans-theoretical model ofchange does this by identifying
five stages that impact behaviormodification.
These include pre-contemplativepreparation, action and

(01:06):
maintenance.
In a 2019 National Institutesof Health publication titled
Trans-Theoretical Model ofHealth Behavioral Change a
systematic review, the authorsindicate this model is one which
states that changing a behavioris not a coincidence, but
instead is a process anddifferent people are in
different stages of change andreadiness.

(01:26):
At Genesis, this model is amongthe guiding principles of our
work with survivors of domesticviolence.
The experts in leading this workat Genesis include our guest
today, ruth Guerrero, chiefClinical Officer, and Jordan
Lawson, chief ResidentialOfficer.
Jordan and Ruth, welcome backto the show.
Thanks, it's always sointeresting to spend time with

(01:47):
you and we were just having apre-conversation about our
conversation that we're going tohave today about stages of
change, and you mentioned thebroccoli thing and I'm going to
come back to that because I'msure everyone wants to know what
that is.
You both work with thousands ofwomen and children each year
who are survivors of domesticviolence and have established
the best practices for that workthrough both your own
experience and the foundationalresearch of other experts in the

(02:09):
field.
One of the key tools is thetrans-theoretical model of
change, or, maybe a littleeasier to say, is the stages of
change.
So before we understand itsapplication to Genesis clients,
let's dive into what the modelis and the specific stages.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yeah, so the trans theoretical model of change or
stages of change.
It was initially created toreally research and look at how
do you, how does somebody breakthe habit or addiction of
smoking.
So it was really applied to thesensation of smoking and so it
really looked at how doessomebody create, how do you go
through the process of actuallycreating change in a goal that

(02:47):
you have.
Since then it's been researchedand applied to all kinds of
different areas, right, ruth?
I don't know that there's anysort of like goal that we're
aware of that it hasn't alreadybeen applied to, but for sure
could be applied to, right,right?

Speaker 3 (02:59):
right.
So if you think about thestages of change in, just think
of your own goal Right?
So if your goal is to eatbetter or to exercise more, go
to bed earlier, right, like thiscan be applied to any type of
goal that we're talking about.
So I'm going to use the examplethat Jordan and I both share,
in that we want to eat better.

(03:20):
That's always on the top of ourmind, like, ok, I got to eat
better, I got to eat less sugar,I got to eat more healthy.
So you need to eat healthier.
Yes, we need to eat healthier.
So if I was in pre-contemplationstage, I would not have the
goal to eat healthier, right, wewouldn't be thinking, oh, I
need to do this, I need tochange my behavior.

(03:40):
What we would just be noticingis the effects of not eating
healthy.
So that might mean that I haveless energy or that we don't fit
our clothes as well as we wouldlike to.
Pre-contemplation you're noteven thinking about it.
You're experiencing the effectsof it, for sure, but not
necessarily identifying.

(04:01):
I could do something about this.
So then you get to.
So that's stage one.
Stage two then is contemplation, and that's when you're
thinking about it.
So, in our goal of eatinghealthier.
Jordan and I are going to startthinking, oh, maybe I can eat
less cookies or less donuts thatcome to the office every
Wednesday.
Maybe we're thinking, oh, Icould give up, you know, three

(04:24):
pieces of pie and maybe only onepiece of pie at Thanksgiving,
and I can start eating saladsand you know I'm going to go to
the store.
These are just things thatyou're thinking of, you, haven't
you?

Speaker 2 (04:34):
haven't made any decision, you haven't made a
goal yet.
Or maybe, instead of justthinking about what you could do
, you're also just thinkingabout what's the impact of it,
the problem.
So in stage two, I might bethinking about what I could do,
or I might just be thinkingabout, like my pants are getting
real tight and I don't feelgood, and for sure I'm
connecting it to and I'm sayingit's because I'm eating all of

(04:54):
these things that my pants aregetting tight, and so I'm really
aware of the problem in tworight yeah.

Speaker 3 (05:05):
And I'm thinking about the pros and cons to
making a change, because nowthat I've recognized, okay, I
can do something about this.
But now I have to consider well, do I want to do something
about this?
Right, what are the pros ofeating healthy?
Now, I can fit my clothesbetter.
Now I can have more energy.
There are a lot of cons toeating healthy, right, like,
maybe now I have to go shopsomewhere else that has, that
sells the healthy food, and Idon't have to.
You know, I can't go to myfavorite fast food restaurant,

(05:29):
or when I'm out with my friends,now I'm the only one that's
going to be turning down adessert.
So stage three, then, is nowyou're moving from.
Should I do this change?
Should I not to?
Ok, yes, I want to make achange, I want to eat healthily.
And what am I going to do toprepare to make this change?
So maybe I'm looking in onPinterest for good recipes and

(05:51):
healthy recipes and I'm tellingmyself, okay, so what's my plan
the next time somebody brings ingoodies to work and I don't
want to have to eat?
You know, I don't want to haveto, like, be tempted, because I
know that that's what I want.
What am I going to tell myselfso that I don't eat that extra
cookie?
Stage three is not making anychanges.
You're just preparing to makechanges.

Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah, I always say that it's really important to
recognize that when somebody istrying to go through the process
of change, we're saying thatthey're going through three
stages before where they'rereally not doing anything
different.
They're just're really notdoing anything different,
they're just moving forwardtowards doing something
different and kind of the bestexample of this for me is you
know, I've really gotten towhere I'm like I'm going to eat

(06:33):
better.
I'm going to make this shoppinglist of all the vegetables I'm
going to buy and all you know,based on this meal plan, of all
these really healthy things I'mgoing to eat.
I've gone to the grocery store.
I've bought the broccoli.
Here comes the broccoli.
Okay, good, I was waiting forit.
I brought.
I bought the broccoli, I hadthe broccoli.
I put it in that fresh drawerright in the fridge.
I had the plan of what I wasgoing to cook it for.

(06:55):
But if you ever bought thebroccoli and let the broccoli
rot in that fresh drawer, neverwhat, maria, you're better than
us For absolute certain.
On more than one occasion I'velet the broccoli rot.
Maybe my husband has said whydo we keep frying broccoli?
Because it keeps rotting inthis drawer, right?
So for me that's kind of theexample of stage three of I

(07:16):
bought the broccoli but itrotted in the drawer, so it's
not actual change yet.
Right, it's still the preparingfor change, because then you
move into stage four, which isthe action step in the stages of
change.
And when four is when I wouldactually take the broccoli out
of the drawer and cook it andeat it, in stage four I'm
literally changing something.

(07:37):
The action is really there, thebehavioral change is really
there because I'm eating it.
I love when you talk about this, ruth, because you talk about
how, in stage four, you're doingit, but there's still
temptation, there's still astruggle.

Speaker 3 (07:48):
Right, it's not that.
Oh, this is so easy.
Right, change is not easy.
And so I'm still tempted to eatthat extra cookie or eat those
gummy bears that are in my desk.
But if I'm saying okay, I'mactively deciding to not eat
that and to eat somethinghealthy and to order the salad
at the restaurant.
I get to the restaurant, I openup the menu.
I absolutely want to have thosemashed potatoes or the mac and

(08:12):
cheese.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
But if I so, so yes, in stage four, it is still that
temptation, it's that internalbattle that I'm still having the
plan and the action and then instage five is called the
maintenance stage, and five isreally where you've made this
habitual, right?
You're one of those people thateats healthy 80% of your life
and 20% of your life.
You let yourself sort of have agood thing, right?
You're somebody that goes onvacation and you think about

(08:36):
like oh, I had dessert for lunchand I'm going to have it for
dinner, right, whereas I'm justeating everything on vacation.
And then there's actually asage sticks that we talk about a
lot, and sage sticks would berelapse, that it's really common
to sort of kind of go back.
We think the example of eatingis really important because, you
know, in a second we obviouslywant to talk about this in

(08:56):
regards to domestic violence.
That's the work that we do, butwe think it's really important
for everyone to be able torelate to what's the process to
make change, even something asif you will, simple as eating
healthy.
It's all of these steps, all ofthis prep, all of this internal
dialogue and change thathappens to actually make change.
And then, if you lay on top of,or if you think about this in

(09:18):
regards to something as big andconsequential as domestic
violence and everything that youknow, changing my whole life,
how much harder and complicatedthat might be when you're you're
applying these five steps to it.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
Yeah, for sure, I really appreciate that example.
It's something that all of uscan relate to, and probably at
one time or another also, we'retrying to eat healthier and
wound up throwing away broccoli.
So thank you for that.
Now let's talk about this verysame model through the lens of
domestic violence.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
Yeah.
So in domestic violence werecognize that stage one,
pre-contemplation, beforethought about the problem.
Is somebody who is experiencingdomestic violence of course
very upset about it, right,Experiencing the impact of it
and not liking it?
We think that's importantbecause a lot of times if people
are lacking empathy they maybesay that she asked for it or she

(10:11):
chooses to say so.
She must want it.
But in stage one she is justreally focused on surviving, so
she's not calling it domesticviolence.
She's not saying that thebehavior is his fault or her
abuser's responsibility.
She may be saying, well, it'sbecause I was late or it's
because I didn't do this, and soin stage one she's very much

(10:32):
experiencing it, but she's notnaming it as domestic violence
and she's not yet identifiedwhat she might need to do to
protect herself because he isgoing to continue to choose to
be abusive.
So stage two contemplation Atthis point, in the stages of
change, she is calling itdomestic violence.
She is naming the problem.

(10:53):
She's also probably naming theimpact of the domestic violence.
She can tell you that it'scausing her to have anxiety and
fear.
She might be saying that she'sgot depression right, she might
be able to talk about theisolation or the control, and so
how she hasn't been able towork because she wasn't allowed
to.
So she can really name theproblem and the impact of it,

(11:15):
but she's not yet ready to dosomething different.
She's just, she's in a space ofreally like calling the problem
.

Speaker 3 (11:23):
Yeah, I think it's important also to just point out
that this is not necessarilythat she is trying to decide is
she gonna leave the relationshipor is she gonna stay in the
relationship?
She can decide to stay in therelationship and still move
through the stages of change.
But, for example, in stage twoshe's deciding oh, okay, she's

(11:43):
recognized.
Okay, yes, there is abusehappening and it's not my fault.
Maybe her decision is, or herchoices, right is do I leave or
do I stay?
Or do I go get counseling or doI not?
Do I make a police report or doI not?
So there's really lots ofdifferent things that she can be
thinking.
But I want to make sure thatwe're clear when we're saying

(12:06):
what changes she can make in thestages of change in domestic
violence, we are not at allsaying that what can she do to
stop the abuse from happening?
Right, she doesn't have anycontrol over that and so even if
she does all of her copingskills and all of her safety
plans and she calls the police,even if she leaves like the
abuser still is going tocontinue abusing.

(12:27):
So I just wanted to clarify,before we keep going, that stage
two, when she's thinking aboutwhat she can do to change Jordan
is not saying what she can doto change the abuse from
happening.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
Yeah, it's whatever goal she's wanting to change in
the place that she's at right.
Thank you, ruth.
That's really important topoint out too, especially
because she is trying toidentify what she has control
over, changing Cause there's alot of things she may want to
change, but she doesn't havecontrol over it.
She doesn't have control overmaking him stop.
She doesn't have control overthe court system doing what it

(12:57):
should do, right?

Speaker 3 (12:58):
Yeah, and also when she's thinking about those pros
and cons.
In stage two of contemplationthose pros and cons might not be
a lot of things she can control, because what's the con of
telling someone that abuse ishappening?
Oh well, maybe there's a threatthat he said if you tell anyone
, I will X, y, z, and so sureshe could make that decision.
But she's going to look notjust at what's the possible good

(13:22):
consequence but what's thenegative consequence that could
happen.
Yeah, absolutely right.

Speaker 2 (13:26):
Because, again, if she is sort of contemplating,
should I leave or not, well,what's the pro of leaving?
Maybe there is this idea thatI'll be safer, but you and I
know that that's not necessarilytrue, because the con of
leaving is she's 75 times morelikely to be seriously injured
or murdered after leaving.
After leaving is the mostdangerous time for her.

(13:46):
So she's really even on thatidea.
She's really trying to playwith which one should I, which
one should I do, because whichconsequences might be less
detrimental to me, right?

Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
So let's say that she is.
She is playing with those prosand cons, she moves forward in
her sort of decision of I thinkI want to try this thing.
So she moves into stage threeor the preparation stage.
So this would be a time whereshe would be maybe doing a lot
of research or a lot of lookinginto what are agencies that
could support her, or she'sasking family and friends for

(14:20):
help or information, or she'sreally gathering resources.
Those could be externalresources, like I said, help
with different benefits ordifferent options, legal options
, case management often likehousing or medical needs or
things like that or it could beinternal resources.
She's gathering up copingskills.
She's gathering up safetyplanning, information and things

(14:43):
that she could do Right, andthen she may move forward into
stage four.

Speaker 3 (14:53):
Wait before you get to four.
I love what you always say,jordan, about her kind of
appearing frantic in stage three.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
Oh yeah.
So in our experience, clientswho are in stage two or three
can really appear veryoverwhelmed, very scared, very
frantic maybe even a word thatwe don't love.
But we have heard, in regardsto victims of domestic violence,
hysterical.
We know they're not hysterical,that is not what they are, but

(15:16):
that may be how somebody elseexperiences her because she's so
aware of the danger.
It's kind of this idea of Inever thought he would do this.
And now that I have acceptedand understand that he is doing
this on purpose, he is choosingto be abusive.
Now I'm absolutely terrifiedthat anything could happen.

(15:36):
Any danger is possible.
He's capable of anything likemurdering me and at the same
time that her fear is at anall-time high, or her what if he
does this?
Is at an all-time high.
She's still disconnected fromwhat she could do or what she's
in control of.
To make things different, one ofthe definitions of domestic

(15:59):
violence is the systematicdiminishment of a woman in her
home, so that disempowermentthat's happened.
It really leaves her in a placeof very much being aware of
what the problem is and notfeeling empowered to do
something about that.
Again, we're saying that verycarefully because when we say do
something we're not saying stopthe abuse.
We're talking about otherthings that she could do to

(16:20):
increase her safety or to createchanges or something there and
that can be important forfriends or family or helping
professionals that are workingwith her.
Because in that franticnesssometimes people will think that
she is demanding or that she'sa difficult client, or when
really she's just terrified andshe's sort of trying to grapple

(16:42):
with anything, she's trying toreach for anything that could
give her some security and somesense of safety.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
So while we're going through these stages right,
we're not really consciouslyaware at that time that we're
going through a stage.
We don't know that we're livingin a problem.
That doesn't mean we're alwayspre-contemplating.

Speaker 3 (17:03):
Well, I would say that once you know about the
stages of change, I think thenyou do have some insight.
And if you pause right and lookat yourself like, ok, actually,
what's happening here?
Like nothing's changing, oh,that's because I'm not changing
what stage of change I'm in.
But I do.
I do think that you're right,maria, and like all of us are
going through different stagesof change and we're going to get

(17:25):
to this later.
But it's not this linear like,oh, you go one, two, three, four
, five and you're done.
Right, it is a process.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, and I do think you're right that she's not
consciously making choices tomove forward in the stages of
change, right, no, right, right.
So that's why we have found andof course we'll get more
clearly into this too but that'swhy we have found that it's so
important, particularly forprofessionals, to understand
this, so that they can reallyhelp her develop that insight

(17:52):
into what stage she's in andwhat it would take to move to
the next step.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
That's kind of where I was going with the idea,
because I thought, well, this isa really good tool for
reflection because by the timeshe does take an action step and
maybe show up at Genesis If bythe time she does take an action
step and maybe show up atGenesis, the counselor would
know about the stages of changeand be able to kind of walk it
back a little bit and see whereshe's, what's been happening
with her for the past couple ofweeks or months.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, you know the goal at Genesis.
I will tell you, Ruth, I knowyou agree because we talk about
this all the time Majority ofclients who come to Genesis come
to Genesis in probably stageone or stage two, and so our
goal is to support her in movingforward into stage three or
stage four.
Of course, stage five, Right,but there so the what we're

(18:38):
talking about, in inunderstanding what stage and how
they present what they looklike, what their behaviors are.
If a professional understandswhat stage they're in, then the
professional changes theirapproach to the client, their
intervention to the client, theliteral language that they use

(19:00):
or don't use to the client,based on, you know, kind of
specifically for that stage.
And in doing that, then it'sreally supporting her in this
way that increases her insightand helps her understand where
she's at and what she needs todo next in this sort of process,
which brings us to stage four.
Yeah, so stage four would be theaction stage, and this is the
stage in which she's applyingaction or behavioral change to

(19:24):
the goal that she has.
Ruth said it and we just can'temphasize it enough Action does
not mean she's leaving it, or itdoesn't only mean that she's
leaving the abusive relationship.
That could be something that'sa goal for some clients, but
it's just not for all of ourclients.
It's just not.
It's not safe right, and so itcould be.
Her goal may be to increase hersafety planning and her use of

(19:45):
her safety plan.
And so in stage four, the actionstage, she's applying her
safety plan.
She's doing the things that she, that her and her counselor,
her and her advocate identifiedas a part of her safety plan.
It could be increasing hercoping.
She's dealing with emotionalabuse and that's really
upsetting, and so she wants tobe able to use coping strategies
and distraction techniques tosort of manage her reactions and

(20:10):
take care of herself throughthat.
And so in stage four, she'susing those coping strategies.
She's not just talking aboutwhat if I journaled or what if I
did this, she's doing it inthose really emotional moments.

Speaker 3 (20:20):
Something I love about stage four is that she
also recognizes this is not herfault at all, she's not taking
any blame in when the abusehappens and being able to
recognize when the abuse ishappening.
She's identifying that, she'sidentifying the escalation in
the abuse and she can see whenher abusive partner is starting

(20:41):
to escalate even more with thoseabusive tactics.
And therefore now she has moreinsight into doing the safety
plan, because now she ismotivated to do it and now
recognizes when she can do that.

Speaker 2 (20:54):
And arguably the safety plan is more effective
because, instead of trying to docertain things to make him
happy so he won't be abusive,now she's very aware that, like
no, this abuse is occurringbecause he chooses to, and so my
focus is going to be on when hedoes this.
I'm going to take care ofmyself or protect myself by
doing A, B, C or D.

Speaker 3 (21:15):
Right.
So now she's feeling moreempowered, she's not joining in
on the cycle of violence.
Right when he's going throughthe cycle she can identify and I
love what you just said thatit's more impactful and we love
this as professionals in stagefour because then she is
definitely open to all of theideas and all of the different
you know, ability to do someprocessing on her feelings and

(21:37):
her thoughts, without thatfeeling that she needs to
protect him or that she needs tominimize him to survive and
minimize the abuse to survive.

Speaker 2 (21:46):
And lastly, stage five, the maintenance stage.
This is usually when a clienthas terminated session.
She's sort of met her goals intherapy or in advocacy or in
occupational therapy.
She's moved forward and she'scontinuing to utilize those
techniques and those strategies.
So, unfortunately, as we'vetalked about I don't know how
many times on this podcast,domestic violence can continue

(22:08):
after leaving for years, and soit means she's just maintaining
the use of her safety plan,maintaining the use of her
insight regarding the cycle ofviolence, maintaining the use of
her coping strategies and sortof applying those things to her
everyday life to take care ofherself.

Speaker 3 (22:23):
Yeah, counseling and services for domestic violence.
We're not ending when the abuseends.
Right, we would be seeing themfor a very long time, for
forever, but instead it'shelping her learn those skills
to be able to manage it.
Jordan talks about thewhack-a-mole game.

Speaker 2 (22:42):
Yeah, Do you want to talk about that?
Yeah, so you know.
Again, in our experience, we inhearing clients who take
certain steps to change, but theabuse continues.
It's like playing a being on awhack-a-mole game constantly.
I don't know if you've everplayed whack-a-mole Maria Right.
I took a picture of my sonsplaying whack-a-mole game one
time because I've used thismetaphor so much.

(23:02):
I just was like here's thisthing.
So you stand over the game, youusually are very focused
because you are waiting for thatmole to pop up, and then you've
got that mallet in your hand,ready to the mole as soon as he
pops up.
So our clients, a lot of timesin stage four, are living their
lives hovered over this game, ifyou will, metaphorically, all
of their energy, all of theirfocus is really on him, just

(23:26):
waiting for him to pop up.
Because when he pops up itcauses disruption, it causes
problems, and so she's ready toeither try to minimize those or
she's ready to try to deal withthem.
Right stage five, thatmaintenance would be her
understanding of.
I actually have the ability togo play a different game, to go
do something else.
I don't have to hover over thisboard, not all of my energy has

(23:48):
to be here, because I have theskills and the tools which in
this metaphor, is the malletthat when he does pop up, I can
then direct my attention towhat's going on, kind of deal,
and manage the impact of whathe's doing, and then I can go
back to this different way ofliving, and all of that's
created through that insightbuilding and through that sort

(24:08):
of skills building that they'redoing.
And again, like we said earlier, how we're approaching those
conversations, how we're givingthat education or that
information, is reallydetermined by the assessment of
where she's at in the stages ofchange.

Speaker 3 (24:22):
Well.
So I think now is a good timeto say, right when we teach our
staff or when we're trainingother professionals about the
stages of change, we do reallyencourage them to recognize in
every interaction which stageshe's in.
Because, just like Jordan issaying, that is going to inform
how you interact with her.
If I'm thinking in my head, oh,she's stage four, she's moving,

(24:43):
she's making actions, she's,you know, taking steps towards
whatever the goal is, and so I'mkind of there like, oh, you're
doing so, well, you know, andkind of maybe even pushing, and
have you thought about this andwhat about this?
But actually she's in stage two, she's gonna pull back.
I'm not gonna be successful atall because now she's, she's not
there yet, she's not ready.

(25:04):
So in counseling, in thecounseling world, we always talk
about meeting her where she'sat.
That cannot be more truer thanit is for the stages of change.
If we meet her in whateverstage she's in, that's how we're
gonna help her make progressand her make insight.
It does no good for her if Ijust tell her it's not your
fault.
But when she can decide and shesays, oh, it's not my fault

(25:27):
that he's doing this, that'swhere the power comes in.
The change.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
So what is the application of the stages of
change model at Genesis?

Speaker 3 (25:35):
It's a great question .
We love that question.
We use it all of the time.
So we train our staff, ofcourse, right, just like we're
saying, to be able to identifywhat stage she's in.
We use it in supervision all ofthe time.
So we would both say that thestages of change is what has
made us the best at being traumainformed and being able to

(25:56):
understand.
It takes away any frustrationthat you might have when working
with a client, because if youare giving her all of these
options for example, right,you're an advocate, you're
giving lots of resources and sheseems like, okay, yes, and
she's writing them down and thehomework is that she's going to
call those resources or she'sgoing to reach out and fill out

(26:19):
applications, and then she comesback the next meeting and she
hasn't done any of that.
It would be normal and naturalfor the advocate to then feel
really frustrated.
Well, why didn't you call?
You said you were going to callthem.
Why didn't you fill out thisapplication?

(26:39):
But if the advocate canrecognize, oh, she must be in
stage one or stage two, notstage four then the advocate is
now able to say, oh, Iunderstand, there's lots of
barriers.
Let's talk about those barriers?
What was it that got in the wayof you being able to do that?
And now we can actually makeprogress.

Speaker 2 (26:50):
I love that you're saying the frustration piece of
this, because when we do thispresentation we do sort of focus
on that a lot, because in theyou know 13 plus years that you
and I've been doing this that'swhat we hear a lot in
supervision when counselors oradvocates or OTs come to us with
questions about clients, it'susually with this, a lot of care

(27:14):
and a lot of maybe concern forher safety, but a lot of
intention of how do I help her?
Why is what I'm doing notworking, if you will, and a lot
of times what, what Ruth and Iwill notice is that, whereas
that frustration is coming froma place of care, it's just not
helpful.
It's just not because the truthis is she's not ready for the
interventions that the advocateor the counselor are trying to
apply, and so they're working ina higher stage than she's ready

(27:34):
for.
When you sort of back up andyou give her some space to just
be in that stage or understandwhat that's like or develop
insight or anything, she willnaturally start to move forward.
Kind of a strong example of this, if I'm going to put myself on
blast a little bit, is I had aclient that I was having a
really hard time with and Ialways think of that Jerry
Maguire movie of like help me,help you, help you know kind of

(27:59):
thing of she was reallystruggling with the counseling
process for multiple reasons.
She was having to come tocounseling, but really
struggling with being vulnerableand talking about things.
She didn't want to talk aboutthem because she didn't want to
feel bad talking about negativememories.
That seems understandable,right?
Yeah, sure, but at the sametime, and not talking about them

(28:20):
, she was very much experiencingthe symptoms of trauma and the
disruption of trauma symptoms,and so I was kind of pushing, I
was trying to be in a stagethree or a stage four, in that I
was telling her that she shoulddo this or she has to use her
coping skills.
Or did you do that strategythat we talked about?
Okay, why didn't you do thatstrategy?

(28:41):
Right, just like really badcounseling, if I'm being honest
with you, maria.
And one week it just came tothis place where my supervisor
really encouraged me to like put, take the foot off the gas,
just let her be and see what itis.
And so it might sound a littlebit strange to say what we did
is we turned on a cooking show,the show chopped.
We turned it on in our session.

(29:03):
She was exhausted, she wasworking really hard, and so we
said what if we just focused onself care and coping?
One of your coping skills iswatching cooking shows.
Let's watch a cooking showtogether.
And so we just sat in thesession watching Chopped on
YouTube in my office.
But during the show she startedto say things about the

(29:23):
contestants feeling judged, thatthey worked so hard, they
created this, they got thiseducation.
They, you know, did all this,and people don't even think
about that.
They just judge them for thisone thing.
That's true.
And then she talked about whatit would be like to have all of
these people tell you whether ornot you're good or you're bad,

(29:43):
or you're good at this or you're.
And what I'm recognizing in themoment, of course, is that she's
processing the trauma of abuse.
She's processing the control andthe manipulation and the verbal
abuse of being put down andbeing insulted by an abuser.
But she's also processing theexperience of being afraid of
telling people she isexperiencing abuse because she's

(30:04):
afraid of being judged by thosearound her.
And so it's in backing off andnot trying to approach it in
this very like direct, pushy waythat she actually really did
open up and progress started tohappen.
And so it's an example of like,by, by being in the stages of
of, by noticing the stages ofchange, what I learned in that

(30:25):
is in the next sessions, I'mgoing to ask questions
differently, I'm going to bemore general in my approach, I'm
going to be less direct.
I'm not going to say have youtried this or you should do this
, because she's not there yet.
And again, by changing myapproach, it then gave her space
to be, to understand and todevelop insight, and she

(30:46):
actually started to thencontemplate doing something
different, and then she startedthinking about how she might do
it differently, and then shestarted actually doing it
differently.

Speaker 3 (30:56):
Right.
I love that example because itis such a clear example of how
recognizing what stage she's inOf really bad counseling versus
okay, counseling no, no.
Once you recognize what stageshe was in, then you made the
progress right.
So we do a lot of, we talk alot about the stages of change,

(31:16):
maria, to a lot of differentprofessionals and even, of
course, at Genesis, to all ofour staff, and something that we
hear a lot is but I havedeadlines and I have to get this
in and I have, like, I have todo my job.
And here I say like, absolutely, we're not saying that you back
up to the point where, oh, justwhenever you're ready, come and
talk to me.
If you're a counselor, you cansay that, but not if you're an
attorney, right, you havedeadlines, you have to get in,

(31:39):
and we always have safety as thenumber one conversation.
And so if a client is stage one, she's talking about how, oh
well, he promised me he's nevergoing to hurt me again and you
know he's not abusive and Idon't know why CPS is making me
come here, but he promised meit's never going to happen.
Absolutely, I can join with herin that hope that he's going to

(32:02):
change.
And I get to say I have to talkto you, I have to tell you I'm
concerned for your safety, right, I'm not going to say, oh girl,
you don't know what you'retalking about, he's going to hit
you again, or like that'spushing right.
But being able to say, you know, I hope that that's true, that
he never hurts you again andlet's make a safety plan for

(32:24):
worst case scenario, for lastresort, just in case he were to.
So you still get to have thatagenda of whatever your need is
that, you, that you have tocomplete as the professional.
Um, and for us at Genesis it'salways going to be.
We want to still do safetyplanning, no matter what state
she's in.
But it is the verbiage thatyou're using, it's the way you

(32:45):
say it, the way you talk aboutit.

Speaker 2 (32:47):
Or even family and friends, right, ruth?
I know we've both experiencedfor family and friends of
somebody.
You know they're really worriedabout her and so they've tried
to say everything they can toget her to do something
different again out of that fearand that concern for her.
And, if anything, what they'reexperiencing is that it's just
pushing her away further, right,putting up more guards and

(33:08):
blocks, and so you know we, youknow they'll come and say well,
you know, I keep telling herthis and she keeps saying that
she loves him.
And so we'll say, okay, well,why don't you just listen to why
she loves him?
Ask her what is it that youlove him?
What was your first date?
Like?
What was this?
Because what Ruth and I havedefinitely experienced is when
you, she knows.
Like what was this?

(33:28):
Because what Ruth and I havedefinitely experienced is when
you, she knows like she, she'snot um, she's denying this thing
that's going on out of survivaland out of protection, but
she's not dumb, of course, right.
And so when she will have thisspace to process and talk about
you know, for example, she maysay our first date was a picnic
and it was the most, it was thebest date ever and it was so

(33:49):
romantic.
If you give her long enough totalk about, she might say well,
actually he forgot a blanket andwe sat on the grass and there
were ants or you know, and whenwomen ran by exercising he
stared at all of them and itwasn't that romantic.
Like she'll start to sort ofadd that butt in and have space
to really think about that butt.
But when you push somebody andthey don't have the ability to

(34:12):
just be real and true about thewhole complexity of it, they're
going to put guards up and thenthey're going to sort of back
away and you're not going tohave the chance, like Ruth said,
to say yeah, I hear you andalso I'm scared for you.
Can we just talk about safety,just in case?
If I, if I have that openness,then of course what we're
talking about is an open doorfor her hearing the safety plan

(34:35):
or the.
Would you be considered or bewilling to consider calling a
shelter if it got to this scaryplace?

Speaker 1 (34:42):
So everything we've talked about so far is about
progression, progressing throughthe stages of change.
What happens when there'sregression, especially in a
situation where there may besafety concerns?

Speaker 2 (34:53):
Well, I think it's imperative for everyone who's
listening to this to know isthere will be.
Like you said, ruth.
It would be really nice iftoday I woke up and said oh gosh
, these pants don't fit anymore.
Oh, it's because I'm eating toomuch chocolate.
I'm going to eat only broccoli.
I only eat broccoli.
I lose 50 pounds.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
I'm great that would be so nice.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
It.
Eat broccoli, I lose 50 pounds.
I'm great, like that would beso nice.
It's just not how life worksand, if we're being honest and
if we're really thinking aboutourselves and any goal that
we've really tried to work onour lives, we've never tried to
change something without someregression or being a part of it
.
It's a human thing, right?
Human Right?
And again, just for the sake ofempathy building, we would ask
you to really think about in, inregards to domestic violence,

(35:35):
the complexity of what it wouldneed to change or is going to
change.
And so it means a lot of loss.
It means the loss of hopes anddreams for the future.
It means some really hardtruths, having to be um,
accepted and acknowledged.
Right it's.
It's just a lot heavier thaneating healthy.

Speaker 3 (35:54):
To be blunt with you, Well, and also it might look
like regression or relapse, butreally what it is, it's her
safety plan or it's her copingskill, right.
So if the friends and familyare thinking, oh well, she's,
you know she's talking to himagain, so she must have gone
back in her in what she wassaying that she didn't want to

(36:14):
be with him, well, let's pauseand find out.
Is she talking to him becauseshe wants to get back together?
Or probably it's because he'stold her that you know, if you
don't answer the phone call,then I'm going to show up at
your house.
Or you know, if they havechildren together, court orders
are going to tell her she has tostay in contact with him.
And maybe she recognizes well,if I don't, if I don't answer

(36:36):
his phone calls or I don'tanswer his text messages, then
he's going to escalate.
Maybe there's threats that havebeen said.
And so just to reallyunderstand, like relapse really
isn't a thing in domesticviolence, because in like the
addiction world, right, orsmoking cessation, relapse in
the stages of change is allabout the client then making the

(36:57):
decision to go back.
But in domestic violence shedoesn't have control if he is
abusing her or not, and so shenow doesn't have good choices to
choose from.
Right.
There's two choices and they'reboth terrible choices.
Do I not answer the textmessage and know then that he's
going to start calling meincessantly?
Or do I answer the text messageand know then that he's going

(37:17):
to yell and scream at me, youknow, and verbally abuse me on
the text messages?
Those aren't good answers,those aren't good choices, but
she has to make one of them.
So I just think, talking aboutrelapse and regression, it
doesn't necessarily always meanthat she's regressing.
It might mean that she's coping.

Speaker 2 (37:35):
Yeah, those are, those are.
There's a lot of meaning thatcomes with those two words, so I
appreciate your sort ofpointing out of like let's be
careful of what relapse orregress, because unfortunately
there could be some shame ornegative connotation that comes
with that, right, yeah, what wedo experience, though, ruth
right, is that clients may be instage two one week in session
and they might be in stage threethe next week in one session,

(37:58):
but then when they come back tothe next session, they might be
in stage one again.
And, to your point, that's notbad.
That's not that she's doingsomething wrong or she's
choosing to go backwards to anunhealthy thing.
It just may be the complexityof the situation she's in and
where she's at in.
It just may be the complexityof the situation she's in and
where she's at in, contemplatingor deciding what she wants to
do or how she's choosing tosurvive, right.

Speaker 3 (38:19):
Yeah, I see the honeymoon phase.
That's what I was going to say.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
Yes, I see this with the cycle of violence Like.
I have clients that I've metwith who you know, especially
right after a violent episode,she might be very much like nope
, I want something different.
And so I'm stage three, andwe're talking about pros and
cons, ideas of what to do.
Have you tried this?
Would you be willing to trythis?
Here are these resources, andthen in the next couple of weeks
, the honeymoon stage is reallythere, in that he's calling her

(38:47):
and apologizing and he's sayingit'll never happen again.
He's giving her thismanipulative hope that things
could be okay in the future, andbecause she's afraid of all the
things she might lose, thenshe's really going back in the
stages of change Again, back notbeing a negative word here, but
just being a directional wordBack in the stages of change to

(39:07):
a two or a one, because she'sreally hopeful that maybe she
doesn't have to lose all of this.
And she can't.
Things can be okay, and so,again, there's not judgment in
where she's at in the stage ofchange.
You do this brilliantly whenyou talk about that.
There's no good stage or badstage, they're just all stages.
And so we don't apply.
And you were talking about withfrustration, like when you

(39:30):
truly understand stages ofchange.
There's's no reaction.
There's no reaction emotionallyto where she's at in the stage.
You just go okay, so she's here.
So then I had changed myapproach, my language, my
intervention based on that and Igo here.

Speaker 3 (39:45):
Right, because for myself, right, eating healthy.
You know, I wake up in themorning, I'm super committed,
I'm going to do better.
I eat a salad for lunch andthen, by two, three o'clock, I'm
eating a chocolate bar, becausenow it's the after.
That doesn't mean something iswrong with me, right.
It just is it takes time to.
So if it's not bad for me to gobackwards in the stages of

(40:07):
change about eating healthy, how, like?
How much harder is it to makethat change?
To end a relationship or tostart recognizing that he's
abusive or that I'm with anabusive partner that I chose for
my children's dad?

Speaker 2 (40:21):
Right, like, there's just so much grief that goes in
there, yeah, Someday I'm goingto need somebody to go back
through all these episodes thatwe've done.
Maria, and just like tally, howmany times we've used the word
complex or complicated, becauseit just can't be said enough.
Again, eating healthy is kindof simple and yet it's really
hard to change and do.
For a lot of us it'scomplicated and it is absolutely

(40:44):
spider webbed with differentcomplexities because of the
things she doesn't have controlover, because of the things he's
intentionally doing, because ofthe things that the court is
requiring her to do in custodyorders.
There's just a lot in domesticviolence specifically to
consider when you're kind oflooking at not only what stage
is she in, but then what changeis it that we're really

(41:07):
expecting her to make?

Speaker 1 (41:08):
yeah, but I think you you bring up a lot of really
good, important points forpeople to think about when they
think about domestic violence,before they say the words.
Why doesn't she just leave?
Because it's complicated,because there's so many layers
of what's happening to her.
Now there are some people whosuggest a sixth stage of change,
which is termination.

(41:29):
What are your thoughts aboutthat?

Speaker 3 (41:31):
Okay, so I did some research about this.
Right, I was looking up becausewe don't use that stage.
So termination from from myresearch talks about how that is
where you no longer are tempted.
Right, it's like you have fullyintegrated that lifestyle, that
change, into your lifestyle.
That would be I never eat anymore candy and chocolate, and

(41:54):
it's not a thing that I do.
I've been thinking about howthat is related to domestic
violence, because the problem isthe post separation abuse.
The problem is is that there'salways going to be abuse
happening from that abuser.
So can she get to the pointwhere she never is impacted by
the abuse?
I don't think so.
Like it always is going to hurtwhen someone calls you a name.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
Well, I'm thinking not only just post-separational
abuse.
Let's talk about the times,cause we do have some clients
who will end a relationship withabuser and because they don't
have children or because hedoesn't really want to be
involved with the children, theycan sort of move on and he
doesn't have there's not ongoingcontact, right, but the impact,
right.
So the way in which, how sheexperienced relational trauma,

(42:39):
how it impacts her futurerelationships, how it changes
her in her future relationships,it's hard to really understand
or think about that with a sixthstage, like you're saying.
So I don't want to say thatit's not a thing, but it feels
really.
It feels like it is somethingthat I wonder if it's really
applicable due to domesticviolence right.

(43:02):
So actually, to be really honestwith you, I have a client who
saw several years ago.
She divorced her husband, sheused her safety plan.
We moved forward in the stagesof change and so we terminated
counseling.
Right, she was moving forward.
I heard from her a couple ofmonths ago that her daughter had
recently gotten engaged and shewas going to have a wedding for

(43:26):
her daughter soon.
She hadn't heard from herabuser in years and then all of
a sudden, because of thiswedding popping up, now he's
emailing her and the email isfull of manipulation, but it's
also full of accusations, it'sfull of demands, it's full of
emotional abuse.
So, to your point, Ruth, Ithink it's really hard, because
maybe you could have said thisyears ago.

(43:48):
But here we are again wherethere's interaction and there's
abuse coming from him and ofcourse, it's having an impact on
her.

Speaker 3 (43:55):
Yeah, and she doesn't have control over that.

Speaker 1 (43:57):
Right.
There are some criticisms ofthe model, suggesting that the
stages are too distinct tocapture the complexity of human
behavior, or the complexity ofdomestic violence for that
matter, and the idea of a changespectrum has been put forth
with these stages included.
What are your thoughts aboutthe spectrum of change for
survivor of domestic violence?

Speaker 2 (44:19):
Honestly, my reaction to it is the thing that I love
about Genesis is not only ourability to, but our commitment
to, individualizing our servicesbased on the human that's
sitting in front of us right,that we want to have a spectrum
to everything that we do so thatwe can really identify and
understand the unique needs ofthe person in front of us and

(44:43):
really change our approach,change our, offer new things
like based on thisindividualized person's needs or
goals or things like that.
And so my thought is thatthat's the way we do it, and you
can get really argumentative onthe word spectrum versus five
stages, but I do think that inthe way that we talk about this,

(45:07):
ruth, and that we train it onthis and, most importantly, the
way we apply it at Genesis, Ithink we are talking about
having an understanding ofmovement so spectrum right and
having an understanding ofcomplexity and having a lot of
openness to assessing theindividual in front of you.
So I think we might be, I thinkwe're doing what it is.

Speaker 1 (45:29):
I also think those spectrum is kind of a um,
different levels of let's, let'suse action, let's use the stage
of action.
So there can be small steps,baby steps, towards that are
actions that can be towards agoal, and then there can be
really large leaps, you know,towards making progress.

Speaker 3 (45:50):
So that's what I was going to say is that I think
that we do use it because we'llsay things like oh, she's in
like 2.5, right, like we'realready saying like well, she's,
you know, or she's vacillatingbetween one and two, recognizing
, like you can, there is thatfluidity of kind of going back
and forth um, or you know, onestep forward and then maybe a

(46:11):
little bit back, and then toyour point, maybe.
Then she comes in and she'smaking this big, huge change,
but also, I think, of the stagesof change and like the spectrum
of changing in regards todifferent goals.
That's what I was going to sayMaybe her goal is that I'm going
to go to counseling and she isin counseling every single week

(46:33):
and she's engaging in the traumaprocessing and she calls if she
has to miss right.
She's super participating.
She's going to be in stage fourin that.
But when it comes to leavingthe abusive partner, maybe she's
in stage two because he is somanipulative and he has used so
many threats that she justreally can't decide am I going

(46:54):
to leave this relationship ornot?
Because there's so many timesthat when it's good, it's great,
right and everything is, and mykids love him and you know, I,
my family, loves him and mychurch tells me that I shouldn't
get divorced and all of theseother things.
It doesn't mean like we're notjust looking at oh well then,
overall she's in one stage, likeyou can have that fluidity that

(47:16):
she would be staged to aboutthat before, about something
else.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
That's what I was thinking too, and when you were
saying, maria, the idea of likelittle steps versus bigger steps
, it made me think of like well,if you think of the, the
problem quote unquote ofdomestic violence as a whole,
that's a really big, lots ofdifferent areas, lots of
different things, and so withthat, I think it's probably too
simple to try to put that wholething in one stage, or you know.

(47:41):
But when you break it down andyou look at the different areas
that she's wanting to bedifferent or work on, or the
different goals that she has, orthe different sort of areas of
insight that she has Becauseanother one that we commonly
hear in Genesis is a lot oftimes she'll be in a different
stage of change regarding herunderstanding of the domestic
violence directly to her versusher understanding of the impact

(48:05):
of the domestic violence on herchildren.
Like usually we see moms who arewilling to or who are able to
and ready to accept that this isdomestic violence.
It's intentional, it's hurtingme I really love this person but
they are hurting me and it'scausing me this issue.
We see them sort of moveforward in the stage of change

(48:25):
in that kind of idea faster thanthey do in regards to
understanding him as a parentfor her children, their children
, and sort of her awareness ofthe impact of his behavior for
her children, their children,and sort of her awareness of the
impact of his behavior on herchildren.
And a lot of times that'sbecause there's so much grief
there and there's so much painin being aware of the impact of
his behaviors on her children.

Speaker 3 (48:46):
And not just like the impact, but how he is as a dad
right, but he's still a good dadright, he's still a good dad.
He's going to the soccer gamesand he's helping with the
homework, without identifying.
Oh, and he's using the kids asweapons and he's pitting the
kids up against her, yeah, andhe's being manipulative and yeah
, so that's a good point too.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
Yeah, cause he's not still a good dad?

Speaker 2 (49:09):
He's not a good dad.
He's not.
Yeah, it's not.

Speaker 3 (49:13):
That's a whole nother hour conversation.

Speaker 1 (49:15):
Yeah, we've actually had that conversation and I
could point to several episodesabout that one.
I think Lundy Bancroft said itbest when I asked him can an
abusive father be a good dad?
And he said no, yeah, no.
The answer is no, so we'vetalked all about the stages of
change within the context ofdomestic violence, but why is it

(49:36):
important for people tounderstand it?

Speaker 2 (49:39):
We mentioned this earlier, but we think the reason
if you will, the most importantreason is because what we see
all the time is victims ofdomestic violence being held
responsible for stopping theabuse and then, when the abuse
doesn't stop, then people getfrustrated with her and sort of
turn against her.
We see this in the court systemright, that a judge gets

(50:01):
frustrated, that they're back incourt again and this is there's
.
You know, this little smallpoint that they're litigating
again, and so they're gettingfrustrated and they will turn to
her and act like she'soverreacting.
Or we see this in family andfriends who will get frustrated
and be really pushy or maybeeven mean in their saying you

(50:21):
know where they get to and theysay well, you just want this to
happen, or you just let him actthis way, or you chose, or
you're not doing anything aboutit, right, so you must not
really be scared.

Speaker 3 (50:29):
You're letting your children go through this, right,
so you must not really bescared.

Speaker 2 (50:33):
You're letting your children go through this because
you're choosing, and so, inthat, they're not only pushing
her away, but they'recompounding the trauma, they're
compounding the pain and thehurt, and so we think that it's
really important to understandchanges, or change, because
there's just so much empathyEmpathy meaning understanding
the complexity of where she's atand everything that's going on

(50:55):
and meaning understanding thecomplexity of where she's at and
everything that's going on, andthere's just so much empathy
there in being able tounderstand where she is.
I like how you said, ruth, thatwe talk about this all the time
in this podcast, that there arelegitimate reasons that she's
doing what she's doing, or thatshe hasn't left, or that she's
protecting herself in this way.
Stages of change can reallyhelp you understand those
legitimate reasons and be really, really aware of them and

(51:16):
connected to them when you'rehaving conversations with him,
with her, and so you're stayingopen to helping her or being
there for her at all times, butyou're not pushing, you're not
expecting, you're not shamingout of frustration or out of
something you know, some sort ofexpectation that she just fix
it already, that she just figureout a way to make the abuse

(51:39):
stop.

Speaker 3 (51:40):
Yeah, as a counselor, we have, you know, so many
clients who will tell us thattheir counselor is the only one
that understands their situationor the only one who doesn't
make them feel bad for what youknow, their own decisions and
what they're doing.
And it'd be so nice if familyand friends and, you know,
churches and other communitymembers could be that support

(52:03):
for her.
But we get it.
We hear when the family orfriend is saying but she keeps
going back.
She tells me she doesn't wantto be with him, but then she
goes back.
Or, you know, she's saying thatshe is tired, sick and tired of
how he's acting, but she's notputting boundaries Right.
And so we do have to talk about,first of all, it's not safe to
put boundaries with abusivepeople.

(52:23):
But second of all, if, if thefriends and family understood
the stages of change, then theywouldn't feel frustrated with
her.
But that also means that theywill still be supportive when
she does decide to finally leave.
Because if they have been, youknow giving her money and trying
to support her and she keepsgoing back and they finally get

(52:44):
tired of it.
Now the abuser can say see, Itold you, your family doesn't
want to help you.
I told you your family, youknow, doesn't believe you or
doesn't care about you, so thatwhen she does decide that she
wants to leave or she does wantto reach out for help now she
doesn't feel like she canbecause her friends and family
have kind of shown that they gotsick of her and that they've

(53:05):
stopped supporting her.

Speaker 2 (53:07):
Or maybe they shut the door because they thought of
this more of like in anaddiction sort of mentality, and
so I'm not going to enable it,so I'm going to, and so now
she's here and she literallydoesn't have support around her.
So the first one would be likethat empathy building, because
we feel like everything comesfrom empathy.
But I think the second reasonthat would be really important
is literally effectiveness inthe work.

(53:27):
So if we're talking toprofessionals who are trying to
work with victims of domesticviolence, stages of change is
just more effective, right,there's no time in which I've
told a client that she has to dosomething or should do it and
it's resulted in like change.
Right, that's not change,that's just like following
directions, and I think,ultimately, what we're all

(53:48):
trying to do is help her createchange so that there is lasting
stability, lasting safety.
Right, sometimes clients do havesome things that they need to
change.
There may be some reallyunhealthy behaviors.
There may be some copingstrategies that they have begun
using because of the traumathey've experienced, like

(54:09):
substance use or things likethat, that like they need to
change.
And it does not help somebody,it is not effective to get them
to change by just growingfrustrated and pushing or saying
you have to or you got to dothis.
It actually what we have foundover and over is it's just more

(54:29):
effective to again sort of takethat individualized, customized
approach to my interventions, tomy language, meet her where
she's at, literally like youwere saying Ruth and then help
her kind of do this, build thisinsight and build this awareness
of what she's going to do andthen move forward.
Ruth and I have the greatopportunity.

(54:51):
We love doing this trainingwith anybody we can who are
professionals.
We've done it with policeofficers and you were saying
prosecutors, and we've done itwith other counselors and
advocates, nurses, workers, yep.
We kind of want to talk familyand friends.
We kind of we literally want toteach anybody who's interacting
with victims of domesticviolence this concept.

(55:12):
But professionally speaking,it's always this thing of like
do you want to effectively doyour work with a victim of
domestic violence or not?
Because this is the way to bemore effective to ultimately get
sort of like movement towardsthe goal that you're wanting to
get done.

Speaker 3 (55:30):
And she'll participate more.

Speaker 1 (55:32):
How could people reach you to sign up for this
training or have you come totheir organization for to
present this training?

Speaker 3 (55:40):
Yes, lots and lots.
So on our website,genesisshelterorg, there is a
spot where you can click onrequest a speaker and then
you'll be able to put in.

Speaker 2 (55:49):
It will say like what topic you can put in stages of
change, and everyone at Genesiswho receives those requests they
know that Jordan and I are theones that do the stages of
change training- Also, we givethe training every year, the
Conference on Crimes AgainstWomen, and so a great way to
hear the presentation in itsentirety and also lots of really

(56:12):
good presentations from a lotof really good presentations
from a lot of really goodspeakers A lot of speakers even
better than Ruth and I is at ourConference on Crimes Against
Women, and you can getinformation from that at our
website as well, and that's inMay.
It is in May.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
It's May 19th through the 22nd.
The website for thatinformation is conferencecaworg.
Ruth and Jordan.
Thank you for being here today.

Speaker 3 (56:33):
Thanks for having us.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
Thank you.
Genesis Women's Shelter andSupport exists to give women in
abusive situations a way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence, and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about

(56:56):
domestic violence.
You can learn more atGenesisShelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
Genesis Women's Shelter, and onX at Genesis Shelter.
The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, seven
days a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.