July 28, 2025 • 34 mins
What happens when the only community you've ever known becomes your prison? When sacred teachings become weapons of control? Jo Lloyd Johnson takes us on a raw, unflinching journey through the hidden world of religious cults and the long path toward reclaiming personal autonomy.
Growing up in what she eventually recognized as a cult environment, Jo experienced multiple layers of abuse – religious, spiritual, and sexual. Raised within a strict hierarchical structure where men held all power and women were expected to remain silent and submissive, Jo's childhood was shaped by what she calls "the umbrella of authority." Under this system, pastors claimed direct communication with God about their followers' lives, husbands controlled wives, and children had no voice at all.
The damage of purity culture forms a central thread in Jo's story. As she powerfully explains, this toxic ideology taught her that her body was dangerous, that sexuality was shameful, and that women bear responsibility for men's thoughts and actions. For Jo, who experienced sexual assault at age six within the religious commune, these teachings were particularly devastating – leaving her wondering if she was already "tainted" before she could even understand what that meant.
Jo's path to healing began with motherhood, when instinctive protection of her child sparked questions about her indoctrination. The real catalyst came when her husband was offered a position as a pastor – suddenly facing the reality of becoming what she had been "prophesied" to be, Jo realized she wanted something different for herself and her children. This awakening led her to examine her beliefs piece by piece, confront repressed memories, and ultimately forge her own path forward.
Today, Jo channels her experiences into supporting other survivors through Louder Than Silence, an organization providing community and therapy for victims of sexual violence. Her story reminds us that healing isn't about forgetting – it's about transforming anger into constructive action and finding community that celebrates authenticity rather than demanding conformity.
Listen and discover how sometimes, the most spiritual act is finding the courage to question everything you've been taught and create a new story – one where you belong not in a carefully tended garden, but in the wild, beautiful forest of your authentic self.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
In today's episode, we meet Jo Lloyd-Johnson, a
survivor and the author ofSilenced in Eden, a memoir that
navigates her personal journeyfrom an abused child to an
empowered woman.
Today, jo shares her experienceof living within the confines
of a Christian cult whereobedience was expected and
purity culture reigned supreme.
I'm Maria McMullin, and this isGenesis, the podcast Jo welcome
(00:28):
to the podcast, thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited that we connectedand that I have the opportunity
to talk about these topics thatare stigmatized and ignored in
society, so I'm really happy tobe here.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Yeah, you raised so many important issues right off
the bat here and you mentionedyour book.
So your book, silenced in Eden,is a memoir that explores not
only what happened to yougrowing up in a cult and
experiencing multiple forms ofabuse, but also how you unlock
the traumatic memories andforged a way forward.
For our listeners who have notyet read your story, can you
share what happened to you?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah, so just to give like the bullet points.
It's never fun to give bulletpoints when we're talking about
like here's all my traumas.
But when I was six years old Iwas sexually assaulted by a boy
inside of a religious commune.
You can call it a cult.
Took me a long time to call ita cult, was raised in purity
culture, had a childhood wheremom and dad like what they said
(01:27):
went to you weren't reallyallowed to question, you weren't
really allowed to self-explore.
Here's the party line.
Follow it.
Do the things that we tell youto do.
Be quiet about it.
It was very patriarchal.
All the men had all the powerand as a woman, my job was to be
pleasant and kind andeventually marry and make babies
(01:48):
and make sure that I am notsexual at all unless I am
married and it's in the bedroomwith my husband with the doors
closed.
In the book I talk about justhow my upbringing formed, what I
thought I had to be, and then,at 30 years old, really start to
figure out who I actually am.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
That is a lot and I thank you for sharing that
little bit with us.
In the book it goes intoextensive detail about your
upbringing and many of thethings that you mentioned, and
much more.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Obviously, there was sexual abuse when I was six
years old.
It was interesting when you andI spoke earlier, you had talked
about the difference betweenspiritual abuse and religious
abuse and it was interesting how, like when you grow up, what
you experience is normalized soyou don't actually think of it
as abuse, until you pull backand are like, oh, this is not
how the rest of the world doesthings and maybe the way that I
(02:38):
did things was unhealthy.
But for me, spiritual abuse andreligious abuse I didn't
actually see them as twoseparate types of abuse because
they were just convoluted thepurity culture which can have
this level of sexual abuse justin harming the way you view
sexuality and shaming being ahuman, and spiritual abuse and
(03:00):
religious abuse.
All of it was like thismultifaceted web.
So it's interesting.
Currently I'm still was likethis multifaceted web, so it's
interesting.
Like currently I'm stillpicking apart each piece of this
web and figuring out like, oh,I was spiritually abused because
I was prophesied over and toldlike this is how I'm supposed to
live my life.
And I was religiously abusedbecause I was told that I had to
(03:21):
follow all the rules of areligion or, you know, you'll be
spanked because spare the rod,spoil the child.
So now parents are allowed tojust beat their kids because the
Bible says so.
So it is interesting to look atnow what I thought was normal
growing up and now what I'mseeing is unhealthy and still
(03:41):
trying to kind of unravel whatis healthy, and that's still
something I'm like literallyfiguring out.
How do you have a healthyrelationship when you've never
been shown a healthyrelationship?
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yeah, that's another really interesting point.
And you got married when youwere 22, right, yes, I was 22.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
I was in a school of ministry, as they call them.
Sometimes they call them achurch internship.
Pretty much, I went right fromhigh school to working at a
church which was verymanipulative, very controlling
and borderlined on a cult.
So it wasn't just like 22,.
Young and naive, it was 22, andinside of an indo indoctrinated
(04:23):
, controlling environment.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
You really hadn't been off the compound.
You were born there, you wereraised there, you were educated
there and that is where you metyour husband.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah, so my story is kind of interesting in I've
experienced two cults.
My grandparents started a cultin like the 70s and 80s and that
ran until the mid 90s when mygrandfather died.
And then when that fell apart,my parents were distraught and
raised me with the sameteachings as the cult, but I was
going to kind of regularChristian churches and then in
(04:57):
high school I found a churchthat was very similar to the
cult and had the same kind ofbackground of beliefs, and so
then I went right back into likeholy cult crazy.
In high school like I ran acampus club where I was the
Jesus freak who was trying tosave souls instead of just like
(05:18):
enjoying being a high schoolstudent and learning about math.
Instead I was praying at schoolon campus for people as they
walked into class.
So yeah, I was definitely fullyin cult, brain, indoctrinated,
had not come out of the fog ofit all.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah, it sounds like it was very immersive.
Now, religion specifically whatyou describe in the book as
being Christian in adiscipleship movement that was
central to your upbringing, andthe church you attended was
started by your grandfather, asyou said.
What were the tenets of thismovement and how did they
influence you as a child and ayoung woman?
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yes.
So the discipleship movementalso called like the shepherding
movement.
Currently there's a new wave ofit called undercover.
I believe it's John Beverewho's kind of spearheading that
one.
But it's this idea, that kindof like the Catholic Church has
the Pope and the Pope is likeGod's direct voice.
He can tell us what God issaying.
(06:15):
For today, with the Undercoverdiscipleship movement, the idea
was that God wants you to bediscipled by, like a specific
person and be discipling aspecific person, and that you,
as the person discipling someone, would have like a direct line
to God for information for them.
(06:36):
So it's this like hierarchicalstructure where a pastor has a
direct line to God for anybodyat his church.
It's similar to the I don'tknow if you've heard of that
Christian umbrella of authoritywhere they have, like, the
pastor is the first tier, thenit's the husband, then it's the
(06:56):
wife, under the wife are thechildren.
In other words, whomever isabove you has a level of control
over you.
And so you can imagine that ifyou have somebody who wants you
to do something, that that levelof power may not be great for
them to have.
If you have somebody who'smaybe not mentally stable or
(07:17):
healthy or has a church.
They really want to grow andwant numbers that they may
misuse this idea that they havea direct line to God and are
able to tell you how to liveyour life, because God's going
to tell them what he wants youto do.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah, and the further down you are on that hierarchy,
the less power you actuallyhave.
So in your case, at that timeyou were a child, and so you had
these layers of power andinfluence above you that were
controlling pretty much yourevery move.
So this, I guess, fits thecriteria of a cult in some ways,
right.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Yeah.
So I think it's pretty clearthat the church that my
grandfather started turned intoa cult because we were all
living on the same property.
He would tell people where theyshould live.
I've heard stories of himtelling people who they should
marry.
At one point they all sharedmoney, so you literally would
write your paycheck to thechurch and then the church would
(08:13):
give you what money you areallotted for that month.
So, yes, it was clearly underthe definition of a cult.
The cult that I found, or thechurch I guess that I found in
high school, is a little more ofa gray area in that it depends
on how you define a cult.
But I had experienced insidethat church people being told
(08:34):
you are supposed to marryso-and-so.
I know God told me so.
Or I was told by a pastor'swife that I was supposed to go
to school for interior designand she was like no, god told me
this is what you're supposed todo with your life.
In the book I get into when myhusband and I were told to
postpone our wedding because hewas supposed to go into ministry
(08:55):
and us deciding to get marriedand take a year off so that we
could afford living on our ownBecause at the time we both
lived with our mommies anddaddies, seeing how mature I was
when I got married.
But when we were wanting to takea year to be able to be
financially stable, he was toldby the pastor that God had told
him he's supposed to do ministry, and so my husband postponed
(09:17):
our wedding so that he could dowhat God said, which was really
just the pastor needing myhusband to do the work that he
was needing him to do right.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Right, not necessarily that your husband
needed to or wanted to do.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, that was best for our future and what we
needed at the time either.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Yeah, exactly Now, from what I can remember in the
book.
If I remember this correctly,shortly after you were told to
postpone your wedding, you wereboth removed from the church.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yes.
So we were in purity culturewhich told us that sex was only
for once.
You're married and like a hardline of you have to say the vows
in front of the church, sign onthe dotted line and now you're
allowed to be a sexual being andhave sex After we postponed the
wedding.
(10:04):
We did not wait and the churchwas told about that.
They kind of like interrogatedus to ask if we had had sex
before our wedding day, and whenthey found out that we had,
that was when my husband was letgo.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
That's so devastating and so humiliating in so many
ways, because this ripped youapart from the only community
that you had known for yourentire life.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yeah, and when that happened it was like six days
before our wedding.
So we weren't really set upbecause it was like, hey, your
wedding is next week, Now youhave no income because he was
working at the church I had aseparate job, but our income was
cut in half was working at thechurch, I had a separate job,
but our income was cut in half.
Also, we were being shamed.
So, yes, the community the onlycommunity that we had as a
(10:50):
married, soon-to-be-marriedcouple, felt uncomfortable being
around because they weren'ttold what had happened.
We were told by the pastors notto tell anyone why we were
being let go.
So it immediately started ourmarriage in this shamed, shunned
state, which, you can imagine,didn't really help us succeed.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah, at least not in that environment.
But in the long run it wasprobably for the best right it
made it for a very bumpy road.
Yeah, absolutely so.
Let's dive into the differentaspect of this whole situation,
and that's the patriarchalaspect of the church.
Can you help us understand thepatriarchal model of this form
(11:30):
of Christianity and how itimpacted your life experience?
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Yeah, so, as I said, with the umbrellas right, the
husband is over the wife, soit's not a partnership really.
The husband always has the trumpcard.
I can put my foot down.
I remember my dad using it as,like I know better because Eve
sinned, so I'm less likely to bewrong, or something.
(11:54):
In the book I use the exampleof Adam and Eve as patriarchy.
In the story of Adam and Evethat I was raised on, god
creates everything, everything'sgood.
He creates stars, sky, night,the land, animals.
And then God's like I wantsomeone for me, I want something
(12:14):
that is in my image.
So God is lonely and wantscompanionship.
So he makes Adam a man andGod's happy.
He's like this is good.
But then Adam is lonely andAdam asked God for a companion
for himself.
And so then God makes Eve.
And in this rendition of Adamand Eve you can see how Adam was
(12:38):
made for God.
But Eve is just a secondthought for Adam's needs.
And that was really how it feltas a woman in this Christianity
.
I felt like my job was to makea man happy.
I was here on earth for men, betheir companion, be in their
image for them.
(12:58):
And Adam, he has this reallycool ability to be next to God,
but I am like a second-classcitizen.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Yeah, that sounds like a very convenient retelling
of a story that we've all heardsome version of, because in
that telling it actually fitsthe patriarchal model.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah, in the last couple years I've heard a really
beautiful version of the storyof Adam and Eve.
Apparently this is more closelyaligned to the Jewish language,
like what the language wouldhave actually been.
So in this story it's the same,where God makes the earth and
the stars and then God wants acompanion, so he makes humanity.
(13:36):
And in this version Adam is notmale or female, adam is both.
Adam is intersex, adam is allhumanity in one being, and this
individual is lonely.
So God decides to split thisone whole person in half, two
(13:57):
equal parts, and that is how wegot male and female.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
I hadn't heard that particular version before, but
that's very beautiful and Iappreciate you providing that
context.
If you have a link for where wecan find that, I'd love to drop
that in our show notes.
On a different note, yourmemoir also addresses purity
culture.
What is that and how is itharmful?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah.
So purity culture.
If you were born in the 90s,you definitely know what it was,
or at least had a taste of it.
The purity pledges were goingaround high schools and colleges
.
It was this concept pushed toget back to shaming sex, a
backlash to the free lovemovement in the 70s and purity
(14:42):
culture taught me specificallythat, as a woman, if you show
off any of your body, then youare the temptress, tempting man,
and whatever impure thoughts hehas, or therefore impure
actions he does, are your fault.
Purity culture was this verymain focus on getting to your
(15:04):
wedding day as a virgin.
It had this concept that if youhad sex with anyone else, you
now are less than that.
Somehow having sex changes whoyou are because you're not a
virgin and virginity is somehowthis prize that you're giving
your husband.
I vividly remember pastors fromthe pulpit talking about, like,
(15:26):
if you can't give your husbandyour virginity, then what are
you giving him?
As if my body somehow changedonce I enjoy it one time.
Now it's totally a differentthing.
For me specifically, havingbeen sexually assaulted at six
years old was really hard to sitin purity culture because I was
like well, does that mean I'malready tainted?
(15:48):
If the idea is, if I'm touchedby a man and I was touched when
I was a kid does that mean I'malready ruined?
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yeah, those are questions we don't have answers
for and we shouldn't have toanswer those types of questions,
right?
I mean because it just seemsridiculous that any of that
would be a person's fault or inany way make you less of a
person, and it is harmful inlots of ways.
Can we talk about a few of theways that it harms especially a
young woman's development?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yeah.
So it taught me right away thatmy body's not safe.
If I show a little cleavage anda guy is staring, it's my fault
.
I mean, I've heard horriblethings about like well, she's
asking for it.
Did you see what she waswearing?
Purity culture really is rapeculture.
It is making it the victim'sfault for just existing in a
(16:39):
female body because, like Godforbid, someone is attractive.
And it also just shames sex,like I was afraid of sex.
I was afraid of pleasure and myown enjoyment because it was
told to me that it was likedirty and bad and I should
definitely not have it.
And the purity culture that Iwas a part of, especially in the
(17:01):
church that I found in highschool, also had this really
weird twist.
You see it, if you've everfollowed, like Mark Driscoll,
once you're married, you'resupposed to be this sexual,
exciting girl in the bedroom foryour husband.
So is this idea of like beMother Mary, be pure, innocent
and asexual and then, when youget married, behind closed doors
(17:25):
, be a whore?
And it's not really possible togo from one state of mind where
you're afraid of your body tothen all of a sudden turn a
switch when you put a ring on afinger and now be completely
comfortable in your body andwant to explore your body and
want to tell your partner whatyou like, when you're like
afraid of liking anything.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Yeah, it's like you don't even have a mind of your
own about your own mind or yourown body.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
I mean for me specifically.
It just led to disassociativedisorder, like I just did not
live in my body.
My body was a place that wasnever safe and in Christianity I
was told, like the body issinful, the heart is deceitful.
So I was just afraid of thevessel that I inhabited.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah, and back to your point about the story of
Adam and Eve.
In Genesis the body was createdby God.
I mean not to get into too muchof the theology here, but it
seems almost counterintuitivethat anything created by God if
you believe in that, could besinful or shameful or evil.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Right, and God made them naked in the beginning too
right.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
There's a lot to dive into that part of the story,
but we better move on to therest of your story, because
there's a point in your life,after you become a mother, that
you start unpacking your traumaand moving away from religion.
How did that evolve for you?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Becoming a mom, I had these little glimpses of what
didn't feel right about myindoctrination.
I remember the first time thatmy child cried and my mom was
like, oh, that little sinfulnature, oh yeah.
And my baby was like fivemonths old and just irritated,
(19:09):
not having words, not being ableto communicate with anything
but moving their body andscreaming at you because they no
longer like what you're doing.
Right, they're justcommunicating a need.
And I remember in that momenthaving that thought of, no, my
baby girl's perfect.
So I don't think we're bornsinful, because I don't see sin.
I see needs that are beingunmet.
(19:30):
And that was like a momentaryshift of like wait, that doesn't
sit in my gut, this idea that Iwas created in sin and I'm
sinful.
So there were multiple thingslike that.
I would have this little checkin my brain or in my body.
Maybe some of the things I'vebelieved I don't actually
believe in my core, but itreally wasn't.
(19:52):
Until my husband got offered ajob as a pastor.
That shook down the frameworkof our religion.
When we were in high school Iwas prophesied over getting into
the spiritual abuse.
I was prophesied over that I wasgoing to be a pastor's wife or
a pastor, depending on yourtheology of if I'm allowed to be
a pastor or if I'm justsupposed to be a pastor's wife
or a pastor, depending on yourtheology of if I'm allowed to be
a pastor or if I'm justsupposed to be a pastor's wife.
(20:14):
And then my husband and I hadsex before marriage.
Oh no, we got told we had toredeem ourselves and, being me,
I'm the type of person if yougive me a goal, I'm going to
work my ass off for that goal.
And so that's what I did.
After we got in trouble and gotlaid off, I had my eyes fixed
(20:35):
on this spiritual goal thatsomebody told me I was supposed
to do, and I think that kind ofblinded me and made me not stop
when I had those glimpses ofthings coming up.
And then, when my husband wasoffered a pastorship and I was
like, ok, yay, I achieved thegoal, I did the thing.
This is what God told me I wassupposed to do in high school.
And then I kind of looked aroundand I was like wait, I don't
(20:57):
actually want this.
I don't want to be a figureheadwhere my husband has all the
power and I have none and I haveto sit quietly in the front row
.
I don't want to pretend like Ihave all my shit together when
(21:18):
I'm still a mess and just ahuman trying to get by.
I don't want my kids to bepastor's kids.
Anybody who's been a pastor kidknows what that all means.
And so once we were offered thejob, my husband and I ended up
turning it down and startedlooking at, like, what do we
actually believe and what do weactually want?
And just started to take thebricks from the religion, brick
by brick.
Like no, do we believe in this?
Do we believe that the Bible'sinfallible and that there's
(21:40):
nothing wrong with it?
No matter the translation, isthis somehow perfect?
Maybe language is morecomplicated than that.
Maybe I don't believe this.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
It's taken you literally years and years to
unpack all of this trauma and,specifically, to go back and
find that repressed memory ofwhat happened to you when you
were six years old, because thatwas not something you were
fully consciously aware of for avery long time, right.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
The brain is amazing in that it tries to save you and
it knows what you can handle.
So, yeah, six years old, I didnot remember what happened.
I had these little hintstowards something having
happened and in the book I thinkI use them as like footprints,
like a trail.
I was like, hmm, where doesthis lead?
And I did have flashbacks whenI was 16, which I did not
(22:26):
understand what was happeningexactly, and it wasn't until
after we were offered thepastorship and turned it down
and started looking at religionthat I was like I feel like
there's more to look at for me,not just looking at the beliefs
that I've held, that maybedidn't sit in my gut, but it's
also looking at these memoriesthat I've pretended like I don't
(22:48):
notice in the background, andseeing why they're there and how
they've affected me.
And so, really, I had to startinterviewing people from my past
to ask them like, hey, I heardsomething happened back in the
property, back in the cult, whathappened?
And I came to find out that Iwas not the only victim.
(23:09):
There was multiple victims.
I'm pretty sure there was tworounds of victims.
I believe my perpetrator was avictim and that there were other
victims when he was victimized,which is sad and heartbreaking,
but it was interesting becausefor me, I had to become a
journalist before writing mybook and research my own history
.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
That's interesting that you say that I've heard
others who've written similartypes of books and memoirs say
similar things about becomingthe investigative journalist of
their own story because the wayit was written for them was not
the way that it happened, andgoing back to peel away all of
these layers or, as you say,take out all of the bricks and
(23:49):
start over and really write thestory the way that you know that
it happened.
To peel away all of these layersor, as you say, take out all of
the bricks and start over andreally write the story the way
that you know that it happened.
It's a very courageous thingthat you and many others have
done and I hope people will readyour book Silence to Needin,
because we're glossing over somereally major topics here, in
particular, the actions thatfollowed when you experienced
(24:11):
that sexual abuse, because therewas a lot of things that you
talked about in the book thathappened within your family,
including ignoring it.
So I encourage people to take alook at the book when they have
the opportunity.
Religion, of course, especiallyChristianity, central to its
belief system, the idea offorgiveness.
In the book you explore theidea of forgiveness and you
(24:35):
offer an alternative definition,that is, to let go of
resentment.
What does that mean to you.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
I feel like anger and remembering can be really
powerful motivators, but theycan also be really destructive.
I had to let myself be angrythat my parents didn't do what I
thought was necessary for asix-year-old kid to be fully
defended.
I had to let go of anger thatthis individual did that to me.
(25:04):
I had to sit in my anger andallow it.
That was what motivated me toheal and motivated me to change,
motivated me to make sure thatI was more vigilant as a mother.
So I think that there are goodthings about anger and
bitterness, if you want to callit that, and so easily we do the
phrase like forgive and forget.
(25:25):
The anger has a purpose right.
The anger can be good.
The anger is what causes me towork as an advocate for other
victims of sexual violence.
But that anger can also turninto self-destruction.
I can just burn with anger andhatred and I could spend my time
(25:46):
harassing the guy who did thatto me, which would not be
helpful for me or the world ingeneral.
And so that's what I mean whenI say release the resentment,
the anger that gets so big thatit's going to burn you and the
whole house down.
Maybe release that and calmthat, but then leave enough to
(26:08):
be a candle for people to seelike, hey, this is what happened
.
I'm going to shine a light onit, I'm going to still talk
about it.
I'm not going to pretend likeit didn't happen, but I'm also
not going to sit in the rage tothe point of burning everything
down.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
What a great metaphor and kind of visual of the good
that can come out of sittingwith your anger.
Thank you for sharing that withus.
I'm curious after all of this,do you still identify as a
Christian?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
So when I was writing Silenced in Eden, I was still
identifying as a Christian forthe most part.
I was like, okay, progressive,maybe At the end I was looking
into like universalism kind ofthe idea that Christianity is
the way I experiencespirituality, because that's the
framework that I was raised in.
After publishing the book andcontinuing my journey of healing
(26:56):
and processing and coming intomyself, I don't call myself a
Christian anymore.
I've gotten to the point whereChristianity has harmed me and
others enough that I do not wantthat label to be adhered to my
name.
I also am teaching my childrenyou can be whatever you want,
and if you want that label to beadhered to my name, I also am
teaching my children like youcan be whatever you want and if
you want to go to church withyour friend, you can go to
(27:17):
church with your friend.
Religion can be healing forsome and helpful for some, but
for me it has done enough harmthat I do not want religion in
my life.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
I completely respect that and can relate to what you
are talking about.
There's other things about youthat are wonderful, too, beyond
your experience, beyond yourwriting, beyond the work you do
as an advocate, because at onepoint in your life you became a
birth doula.
How did your life experiencelead you to become a birth doula
(27:49):
?
Speaker 2 (27:50):
I love that work as a birth doula I actually have the
pleasure of.
A friend of mine is due inAugust and I'll be her doula, so
I'm really excited.
I started because I'm one offour daughters and I was the
first kid to have my own baby.
So when my little sister gotpregnant, I was the first sister
who got pregnant.
(28:11):
I was the only one of ussisters who had ever had a baby
and she ended up asking me to bein the room with her and at
first it was like, oh, just comeby and support me a little.
My husband's there.
I don't really need you,Because when you're a first time
mom, you really don'tunderstand what you're getting
into.
First time mom, you reallydon't understand what you're
(28:33):
getting into Exactly.
Her labor was not easy.
It turned into a very longlabor in which she was like you
are not allowed to leave me,Stay here and help.
And I was awake with her for aday and a half and helping.
Let's try this movement here.
I'll support you here.
Here, let me rub your back herehad no training other than I
had lived through it myself andI'm a very supportive, aware
(28:56):
person.
And after my niece was born,the nurses, my brother-in-law
and my sister were all like youshould do that.
You're really good at that, andso it was kind of like it just
fell in my lap.
Yeah, that was kind ofexhilarating and kind of great.
So once I had my third daughter, I went ahead and like was
certified and went through allthe training.
(29:18):
I love doing it In reality, likepart of who I am as a human
being, is somebody who wants tosupport and create community,
and I want to experience thehard shit with you.
I don't do surface stuff, sure,you want to go look at a
concert or look at art or watcha movie, great.
(29:39):
But you want to talk to meabout hard stuff, I'm here for
it.
Or you need support throughsomething crazy, I'm all in.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
You sound like an amazing friend to have, because
not so many people will stand byyou when things are really,
really difficult.
People are fortunate to haveyou as their birth doula or
their friend or family member,and I'm really grateful to know
you.
Let's talk about how you'rehelping survivors through the
organization Louder Than Silence.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
So Louder Than Silence.
I actually found them after Ihad fully decided like
Christianity is not for me andChristianity, as you had said,
was my only community.
That was all I had, so it wasextremely lonely.
I was also processing being avictim of sexual violence and
sitting in that for like thefirst time of my life.
(30:28):
So Louder Than Silence is anonprofit based in Austin, texas
, pretty close to you guys, thatprovides services to victims of
sexual violence.
Our two big things is buildingcommunity.
What I needed at the time wascommunity and our other thing is
we pay for EMDR therapy.
So we run 12-week peer supportgroups, which is now one of the
(30:52):
main things that I do.
We actually have one startingthis month and then another one
starting in August and you justsit in a room with people who
have experienced what you'veexperienced and we talk through
how that's affected your life.
Be very helpful knowing that,the way you have learned to cope
(31:12):
with it so-and-so over here hasalso coped with it that way.
Oh, I'm not crazy, because we'veall done it, and so right now
that's what I do.
I run those programs.
I don't live in Austin Texas,so I just do the virtual things.
We also have in-person events,and right now we are having a
fundraising campaign to try toget our waitlist for EMDR
completely cleared.
We've cleared half of ourwaitlist, so if you have money
(31:34):
burning in your pocket and wantto help out survivors, visit
louderthansilenceorg.
We are changing lives.
They changed my life, they paidfor my EMDR and this is just my
way of paying it forward.
Plus, every day in thecommunity is also healing me.
It is now my community and mysafe place and, as you said, if
(31:55):
you want a friend like me, justjoin.
Join louder than silence,because I'm there.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
I want a friend like you.
I'm so glad that we've had theopportunity to meet and talk
about your story and about yourmemoir, and it sounds like you
have established the communitythat you always needed and
always wanted, and it's reallybeautiful to see everything that
you have become.
Would you close out ourconversation with reading a
(32:23):
passage from your book?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
I love this passage.
I also am a painter, so Iactually have a painting that is
specifically around thispassage, where it's talking
about my brain being a gardenand then turning into just like
wild, beautiful wildflowers.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
I would love to see that painting and we'll drop it
in our social posts with thisepisode, if you would,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
I will definitely do that.
Religion is a garden.
It will tell you where you fit.
Roses go here, lilies go there.
You may be this tall, you maybe this color.
Everything out of place will beplucked out.
It has its beauty but needsconstant tending.
The problem was I belonged inthe forest.
(33:06):
I am wild and free.
I am a stream, not a stonefountain.
I am unpaved.
I am now ready to be what Ihave always been.
I am done toiling, I'm doneconforming.
I will miss the garden.
I will not miss what itrequired of me.
If you found yourself banishedfrom the garden or leaving by
(33:29):
choice, know you are welcome inthe forest.
May you flourish here, may yougrow taller and your.
Thank you so much for talkingwith me today, of course.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Thank you for having me.
Genesis Women's Shelter andSupport exists to give women in
abusive situations a way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence, and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
(34:01):
domestic violence.
You can learn more atGenesisShelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
Genesis Women's Shelter, and onX at Genesis Shelter.
The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, 7 days
a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.
In today's episode, we meet Jo Lloyd-Johnson, a
survivor and the author ofSilenced in Eden, a memoir that
navigates her personal journeyfrom an abused child to an
empowered woman.
Today, jo shares her experienceof living within the confines
of a Christian cult whereobedience was expected and
purity culture reigned supreme.
I'm Maria McMullin, and this isGenesis, the podcast Jo welcome
(00:28):
to the podcast, thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited that we connectedand that I have the opportunity
to talk about these topics thatare stigmatized and ignored in
society, so I'm really happy tobe here.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Yeah, you raised so many important issues right off
the bat here and you mentionedyour book.
So your book, silenced in Eden,is a memoir that explores not
only what happened to yougrowing up in a cult and
experiencing multiple forms ofabuse, but also how you unlock
the traumatic memories andforged a way forward.
For our listeners who have notyet read your story, can you
share what happened to you?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah, so just to give like the bullet points.
It's never fun to give bulletpoints when we're talking about
like here's all my traumas.
But when I was six years old Iwas sexually assaulted by a boy
inside of a religious commune.
You can call it a cult.
Took me a long time to call ita cult, was raised in purity
culture, had a childhood wheremom and dad like what they said
(01:27):
went to you weren't reallyallowed to question, you weren't
really allowed to self-explore.
Here's the party line.
Follow it.
Do the things that we tell youto do.
Be quiet about it.
It was very patriarchal.
All the men had all the powerand as a woman, my job was to be
pleasant and kind andeventually marry and make babies
(01:48):
and make sure that I am notsexual at all unless I am
married and it's in the bedroomwith my husband with the doors
closed.
In the book I talk about justhow my upbringing formed, what I
thought I had to be, and then,at 30 years old, really start to
figure out who I actually am.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
That is a lot and I thank you for sharing that
little bit with us.
In the book it goes intoextensive detail about your
upbringing and many of thethings that you mentioned, and
much more.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Obviously, there was sexual abuse when I was six
years old.
It was interesting when you andI spoke earlier, you had talked
about the difference betweenspiritual abuse and religious
abuse and it was interesting how, like when you grow up, what
you experience is normalized soyou don't actually think of it
as abuse, until you pull backand are like, oh, this is not
how the rest of the world doesthings and maybe the way that I
(02:38):
did things was unhealthy.
But for me, spiritual abuse andreligious abuse I didn't
actually see them as twoseparate types of abuse because
they were just convoluted thepurity culture which can have
this level of sexual abuse justin harming the way you view
sexuality and shaming being ahuman, and spiritual abuse and
(03:00):
religious abuse.
All of it was like thismultifaceted web.
So it's interesting.
Currently I'm still was likethis multifaceted web, so it's
interesting.
Like currently I'm stillpicking apart each piece of this
web and figuring out like, oh,I was spiritually abused because
I was prophesied over and toldlike this is how I'm supposed to
live my life.
And I was religiously abusedbecause I was told that I had to
(03:21):
follow all the rules of areligion or, you know, you'll be
spanked because spare the rod,spoil the child.
So now parents are allowed tojust beat their kids because the
Bible says so.
So it is interesting to look atnow what I thought was normal
growing up and now what I'mseeing is unhealthy and still
(03:41):
trying to kind of unravel whatis healthy, and that's still
something I'm like literallyfiguring out.
How do you have a healthyrelationship when you've never
been shown a healthyrelationship?
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yeah, that's another really interesting point.
And you got married when youwere 22, right, yes, I was 22.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
I was in a school of ministry, as they call them.
Sometimes they call them achurch internship.
Pretty much, I went right fromhigh school to working at a
church which was verymanipulative, very controlling
and borderlined on a cult.
So it wasn't just like 22,.
Young and naive, it was 22, andinside of an indo indoctrinated
(04:23):
, controlling environment.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
You really hadn't been off the compound.
You were born there, you wereraised there, you were educated
there and that is where you metyour husband.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah, so my story is kind of interesting in I've
experienced two cults.
My grandparents started a cultin like the 70s and 80s and that
ran until the mid 90s when mygrandfather died.
And then when that fell apart,my parents were distraught and
raised me with the sameteachings as the cult, but I was
going to kind of regularChristian churches and then in
(04:57):
high school I found a churchthat was very similar to the
cult and had the same kind ofbackground of beliefs, and so
then I went right back into likeholy cult crazy.
In high school like I ran acampus club where I was the
Jesus freak who was trying tosave souls instead of just like
(05:18):
enjoying being a high schoolstudent and learning about math.
Instead I was praying at schoolon campus for people as they
walked into class.
So yeah, I was definitely fullyin cult, brain, indoctrinated,
had not come out of the fog ofit all.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah, it sounds like it was very immersive.
Now, religion specifically whatyou describe in the book as
being Christian in adiscipleship movement that was
central to your upbringing, andthe church you attended was
started by your grandfather, asyou said.
What were the tenets of thismovement and how did they
influence you as a child and ayoung woman?
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yes.
So the discipleship movementalso called like the shepherding
movement.
Currently there's a new wave ofit called undercover.
I believe it's John Beverewho's kind of spearheading that
one.
But it's this idea, that kindof like the Catholic Church has
the Pope and the Pope is likeGod's direct voice.
He can tell us what God issaying.
(06:15):
For today, with the Undercoverdiscipleship movement, the idea
was that God wants you to bediscipled by, like a specific
person and be discipling aspecific person, and that you,
as the person discipling someone, would have like a direct line
to God for information for them.
(06:36):
So it's this like hierarchicalstructure where a pastor has a
direct line to God for anybodyat his church.
It's similar to the I don'tknow if you've heard of that
Christian umbrella of authoritywhere they have, like, the
pastor is the first tier, thenit's the husband, then it's the
(06:56):
wife, under the wife are thechildren.
In other words, whomever isabove you has a level of control
over you.
And so you can imagine that ifyou have somebody who wants you
to do something, that that levelof power may not be great for
them to have.
If you have somebody who'smaybe not mentally stable or
(07:17):
healthy or has a church.
They really want to grow andwant numbers that they may
misuse this idea that they havea direct line to God and are
able to tell you how to liveyour life, because God's going
to tell them what he wants youto do.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah, and the further down you are on that hierarchy,
the less power you actuallyhave.
So in your case, at that timeyou were a child, and so you had
these layers of power andinfluence above you that were
controlling pretty much yourevery move.
So this, I guess, fits thecriteria of a cult in some ways,
right.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Yeah.
So I think it's pretty clearthat the church that my
grandfather started turned intoa cult because we were all
living on the same property.
He would tell people where theyshould live.
I've heard stories of himtelling people who they should
marry.
At one point they all sharedmoney, so you literally would
write your paycheck to thechurch and then the church would
(08:13):
give you what money you areallotted for that month.
So, yes, it was clearly underthe definition of a cult.
The cult that I found, or thechurch I guess that I found in
high school, is a little more ofa gray area in that it depends
on how you define a cult.
But I had experienced insidethat church people being told
(08:34):
you are supposed to marryso-and-so.
I know God told me so.
Or I was told by a pastor'swife that I was supposed to go
to school for interior designand she was like no, god told me
this is what you're supposed todo with your life.
In the book I get into when myhusband and I were told to
postpone our wedding because hewas supposed to go into ministry
(08:55):
and us deciding to get marriedand take a year off so that we
could afford living on our ownBecause at the time we both
lived with our mommies anddaddies, seeing how mature I was
when I got married.
But when we were wanting to takea year to be able to be
financially stable, he was toldby the pastor that God had told
him he's supposed to do ministry, and so my husband postponed
(09:17):
our wedding so that he could dowhat God said, which was really
just the pastor needing myhusband to do the work that he
was needing him to do right.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Right, not necessarily that your husband
needed to or wanted to do.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, that was best for our future and what we
needed at the time either.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Yeah, exactly Now, from what I can remember in the
book.
If I remember this correctly,shortly after you were told to
postpone your wedding, you wereboth removed from the church.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yes.
So we were in purity culturewhich told us that sex was only
for once.
You're married and like a hardline of you have to say the vows
in front of the church, sign onthe dotted line and now you're
allowed to be a sexual being andhave sex After we postponed the
wedding.
(10:04):
We did not wait and the churchwas told about that.
They kind of like interrogatedus to ask if we had had sex
before our wedding day, and whenthey found out that we had,
that was when my husband was letgo.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
That's so devastating and so humiliating in so many
ways, because this ripped youapart from the only community
that you had known for yourentire life.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yeah, and when that happened it was like six days
before our wedding.
So we weren't really set upbecause it was like, hey, your
wedding is next week, Now youhave no income because he was
working at the church I had aseparate job, but our income was
cut in half was working at thechurch, I had a separate job,
but our income was cut in half.
Also, we were being shamed.
So, yes, the community the onlycommunity that we had as a
(10:50):
married, soon-to-be-marriedcouple, felt uncomfortable being
around because they weren'ttold what had happened.
We were told by the pastors notto tell anyone why we were
being let go.
So it immediately started ourmarriage in this shamed, shunned
state, which, you can imagine,didn't really help us succeed.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah, at least not in that environment.
But in the long run it wasprobably for the best right it
made it for a very bumpy road.
Yeah, absolutely so.
Let's dive into the differentaspect of this whole situation,
and that's the patriarchalaspect of the church.
Can you help us understand thepatriarchal model of this form
(11:30):
of Christianity and how itimpacted your life experience?
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Yeah, so, as I said, with the umbrellas right, the
husband is over the wife, soit's not a partnership really.
The husband always has the trumpcard.
I can put my foot down.
I remember my dad using it as,like I know better because Eve
sinned, so I'm less likely to bewrong, or something.
(11:54):
In the book I use the exampleof Adam and Eve as patriarchy.
In the story of Adam and Evethat I was raised on, god
creates everything, everything'sgood.
He creates stars, sky, night,the land, animals.
And then God's like I wantsomeone for me, I want something
(12:14):
that is in my image.
So God is lonely and wantscompanionship.
So he makes Adam a man andGod's happy.
He's like this is good.
But then Adam is lonely andAdam asked God for a companion
for himself.
And so then God makes Eve.
And in this rendition of Adamand Eve you can see how Adam was
(12:38):
made for God.
But Eve is just a secondthought for Adam's needs.
And that was really how it feltas a woman in this Christianity
.
I felt like my job was to makea man happy.
I was here on earth for men, betheir companion, be in their
image for them.
(12:58):
And Adam, he has this reallycool ability to be next to God,
but I am like a second-classcitizen.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Yeah, that sounds like a very convenient retelling
of a story that we've all heardsome version of, because in
that telling it actually fitsthe patriarchal model.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah, in the last couple years I've heard a really
beautiful version of the storyof Adam and Eve.
Apparently this is more closelyaligned to the Jewish language,
like what the language wouldhave actually been.
So in this story it's the same,where God makes the earth and
the stars and then God wants acompanion, so he makes humanity.
(13:36):
And in this version Adam is notmale or female, adam is both.
Adam is intersex, adam is allhumanity in one being, and this
individual is lonely.
So God decides to split thisone whole person in half, two
(13:57):
equal parts, and that is how wegot male and female.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
I hadn't heard that particular version before, but
that's very beautiful and Iappreciate you providing that
context.
If you have a link for where wecan find that, I'd love to drop
that in our show notes.
On a different note, yourmemoir also addresses purity
culture.
What is that and how is itharmful?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah.
So purity culture.
If you were born in the 90s,you definitely know what it was,
or at least had a taste of it.
The purity pledges were goingaround high schools and colleges
.
It was this concept pushed toget back to shaming sex, a
backlash to the free lovemovement in the 70s and purity
(14:42):
culture taught me specificallythat, as a woman, if you show
off any of your body, then youare the temptress, tempting man,
and whatever impure thoughts hehas, or therefore impure
actions he does, are your fault.
Purity culture was this verymain focus on getting to your
(15:04):
wedding day as a virgin.
It had this concept that if youhad sex with anyone else, you
now are less than that.
Somehow having sex changes whoyou are because you're not a
virgin and virginity is somehowthis prize that you're giving
your husband.
I vividly remember pastors fromthe pulpit talking about, like,
(15:26):
if you can't give your husbandyour virginity, then what are
you giving him?
As if my body somehow changedonce I enjoy it one time.
Now it's totally a differentthing.
For me specifically, havingbeen sexually assaulted at six
years old was really hard to sitin purity culture because I was
like well, does that mean I'malready tainted?
(15:48):
If the idea is, if I'm touchedby a man and I was touched when
I was a kid does that mean I'malready ruined?
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yeah, those are questions we don't have answers
for and we shouldn't have toanswer those types of questions,
right?
I mean because it just seemsridiculous that any of that
would be a person's fault or inany way make you less of a
person, and it is harmful inlots of ways.
Can we talk about a few of theways that it harms especially a
young woman's development?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yeah.
So it taught me right away thatmy body's not safe.
If I show a little cleavage anda guy is staring, it's my fault
.
I mean, I've heard horriblethings about like well, she's
asking for it.
Did you see what she waswearing?
Purity culture really is rapeculture.
It is making it the victim'sfault for just existing in a
(16:39):
female body because, like Godforbid, someone is attractive.
And it also just shames sex,like I was afraid of sex.
I was afraid of pleasure and myown enjoyment because it was
told to me that it was likedirty and bad and I should
definitely not have it.
And the purity culture that Iwas a part of, especially in the
(17:01):
church that I found in highschool, also had this really
weird twist.
You see it, if you've everfollowed, like Mark Driscoll,
once you're married, you'resupposed to be this sexual,
exciting girl in the bedroom foryour husband.
So is this idea of like beMother Mary, be pure, innocent
and asexual and then, when youget married, behind closed doors
(17:25):
, be a whore?
And it's not really possible togo from one state of mind where
you're afraid of your body tothen all of a sudden turn a
switch when you put a ring on afinger and now be completely
comfortable in your body andwant to explore your body and
want to tell your partner whatyou like, when you're like
afraid of liking anything.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Yeah, it's like you don't even have a mind of your
own about your own mind or yourown body.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
I mean for me specifically.
It just led to disassociativedisorder, like I just did not
live in my body.
My body was a place that wasnever safe and in Christianity I
was told, like the body issinful, the heart is deceitful.
So I was just afraid of thevessel that I inhabited.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah, and back to your point about the story of
Adam and Eve.
In Genesis the body was createdby God.
I mean not to get into too muchof the theology here, but it
seems almost counterintuitivethat anything created by God if
you believe in that, could besinful or shameful or evil.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Right, and God made them naked in the beginning too
right.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
There's a lot to dive into that part of the story,
but we better move on to therest of your story, because
there's a point in your life,after you become a mother, that
you start unpacking your traumaand moving away from religion.
How did that evolve for you?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Becoming a mom, I had these little glimpses of what
didn't feel right about myindoctrination.
I remember the first time thatmy child cried and my mom was
like, oh, that little sinfulnature, oh yeah.
And my baby was like fivemonths old and just irritated,
(19:09):
not having words, not being ableto communicate with anything
but moving their body andscreaming at you because they no
longer like what you're doing.
Right, they're justcommunicating a need.
And I remember in that momenthaving that thought of, no, my
baby girl's perfect.
So I don't think we're bornsinful, because I don't see sin.
I see needs that are beingunmet.
(19:30):
And that was like a momentaryshift of like wait, that doesn't
sit in my gut, this idea that Iwas created in sin and I'm
sinful.
So there were multiple thingslike that.
I would have this little checkin my brain or in my body.
Maybe some of the things I'vebelieved I don't actually
believe in my core, but itreally wasn't.
(19:52):
Until my husband got offered ajob as a pastor.
That shook down the frameworkof our religion.
When we were in high school Iwas prophesied over getting into
the spiritual abuse.
I was prophesied over that I wasgoing to be a pastor's wife or
a pastor, depending on yourtheology of if I'm allowed to be
a pastor or if I'm justsupposed to be a pastor's wife
or a pastor, depending on yourtheology of if I'm allowed to be
a pastor or if I'm justsupposed to be a pastor's wife.
(20:14):
And then my husband and I hadsex before marriage.
Oh no, we got told we had toredeem ourselves and, being me,
I'm the type of person if yougive me a goal, I'm going to
work my ass off for that goal.
And so that's what I did.
After we got in trouble and gotlaid off, I had my eyes fixed
(20:35):
on this spiritual goal thatsomebody told me I was supposed
to do, and I think that kind ofblinded me and made me not stop
when I had those glimpses ofthings coming up.
And then, when my husband wasoffered a pastorship and I was
like, ok, yay, I achieved thegoal, I did the thing.
This is what God told me I wassupposed to do in high school.
And then I kind of looked aroundand I was like wait, I don't
(20:57):
actually want this.
I don't want to be a figureheadwhere my husband has all the
power and I have none and I haveto sit quietly in the front row
.
I don't want to pretend like Ihave all my shit together when
(21:18):
I'm still a mess and just ahuman trying to get by.
I don't want my kids to bepastor's kids.
Anybody who's been a pastor kidknows what that all means.
And so once we were offered thejob, my husband and I ended up
turning it down and startedlooking at, like, what do we
actually believe and what do weactually want?
And just started to take thebricks from the religion, brick
by brick.
Like no, do we believe in this?
Do we believe that the Bible'sinfallible and that there's
(21:40):
nothing wrong with it?
No matter the translation, isthis somehow perfect?
Maybe language is morecomplicated than that.
Maybe I don't believe this.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
It's taken you literally years and years to
unpack all of this trauma and,specifically, to go back and
find that repressed memory ofwhat happened to you when you
were six years old, because thatwas not something you were
fully consciously aware of for avery long time, right.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
The brain is amazing in that it tries to save you and
it knows what you can handle.
So, yeah, six years old, I didnot remember what happened.
I had these little hintstowards something having
happened and in the book I thinkI use them as like footprints,
like a trail.
I was like, hmm, where doesthis lead?
And I did have flashbacks whenI was 16, which I did not
(22:26):
understand what was happeningexactly, and it wasn't until
after we were offered thepastorship and turned it down
and started looking at religionthat I was like I feel like
there's more to look at for me,not just looking at the beliefs
that I've held, that maybedidn't sit in my gut, but it's
also looking at these memoriesthat I've pretended like I don't
(22:48):
notice in the background, andseeing why they're there and how
they've affected me.
And so, really, I had to startinterviewing people from my past
to ask them like, hey, I heardsomething happened back in the
property, back in the cult, whathappened?
And I came to find out that Iwas not the only victim.
(23:09):
There was multiple victims.
I'm pretty sure there was tworounds of victims.
I believe my perpetrator was avictim and that there were other
victims when he was victimized,which is sad and heartbreaking,
but it was interesting becausefor me, I had to become a
journalist before writing mybook and research my own history
.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
That's interesting that you say that I've heard
others who've written similartypes of books and memoirs say
similar things about becomingthe investigative journalist of
their own story because the wayit was written for them was not
the way that it happened, andgoing back to peel away all of
these layers or, as you say,take out all of the bricks and
(23:49):
start over and really write thestory the way that you know that
it happened.
To peel away all of these layersor, as you say, take out all of
the bricks and start over andreally write the story the way
that you know that it happened.
It's a very courageous thingthat you and many others have
done and I hope people will readyour book Silence to Needin,
because we're glossing over somereally major topics here, in
particular, the actions thatfollowed when you experienced
(24:11):
that sexual abuse, because therewas a lot of things that you
talked about in the book thathappened within your family,
including ignoring it.
So I encourage people to take alook at the book when they have
the opportunity.
Religion, of course, especiallyChristianity, central to its
belief system, the idea offorgiveness.
In the book you explore theidea of forgiveness and you
(24:35):
offer an alternative definition,that is, to let go of
resentment.
What does that mean to you.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
I feel like anger and remembering can be really
powerful motivators, but theycan also be really destructive.
I had to let myself be angrythat my parents didn't do what I
thought was necessary for asix-year-old kid to be fully
defended.
I had to let go of anger thatthis individual did that to me.
(25:04):
I had to sit in my anger andallow it.
That was what motivated me toheal and motivated me to change,
motivated me to make sure thatI was more vigilant as a mother.
So I think that there are goodthings about anger and
bitterness, if you want to callit that, and so easily we do the
phrase like forgive and forget.
(25:25):
The anger has a purpose right.
The anger can be good.
The anger is what causes me towork as an advocate for other
victims of sexual violence.
But that anger can also turninto self-destruction.
I can just burn with anger andhatred and I could spend my time
(25:46):
harassing the guy who did thatto me, which would not be
helpful for me or the world ingeneral.
And so that's what I mean whenI say release the resentment,
the anger that gets so big thatit's going to burn you and the
whole house down.
Maybe release that and calmthat, but then leave enough to
(26:08):
be a candle for people to seelike, hey, this is what happened
.
I'm going to shine a light onit, I'm going to still talk
about it.
I'm not going to pretend likeit didn't happen, but I'm also
not going to sit in the rage tothe point of burning everything
down.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
What a great metaphor and kind of visual of the good
that can come out of sittingwith your anger.
Thank you for sharing that withus.
I'm curious after all of this,do you still identify as a
Christian?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
So when I was writing Silenced in Eden, I was still
identifying as a Christian forthe most part.
I was like, okay, progressive,maybe At the end I was looking
into like universalism kind ofthe idea that Christianity is
the way I experiencespirituality, because that's the
framework that I was raised in.
After publishing the book andcontinuing my journey of healing
(26:56):
and processing and coming intomyself, I don't call myself a
Christian anymore.
I've gotten to the point whereChristianity has harmed me and
others enough that I do not wantthat label to be adhered to my
name.
I also am teaching my childrenyou can be whatever you want,
and if you want that label to beadhered to my name, I also am
teaching my children like youcan be whatever you want and if
you want to go to church withyour friend, you can go to
(27:17):
church with your friend.
Religion can be healing forsome and helpful for some, but
for me it has done enough harmthat I do not want religion in
my life.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
I completely respect that and can relate to what you
are talking about.
There's other things about youthat are wonderful, too, beyond
your experience, beyond yourwriting, beyond the work you do
as an advocate, because at onepoint in your life you became a
birth doula.
How did your life experiencelead you to become a birth doula
(27:49):
?
Speaker 2 (27:50):
I love that work as a birth doula I actually have the
pleasure of.
A friend of mine is due inAugust and I'll be her doula, so
I'm really excited.
I started because I'm one offour daughters and I was the
first kid to have my own baby.
So when my little sister gotpregnant, I was the first sister
who got pregnant.
(28:11):
I was the only one of ussisters who had ever had a baby
and she ended up asking me to bein the room with her and at
first it was like, oh, just comeby and support me a little.
My husband's there.
I don't really need you,Because when you're a first time
mom, you really don'tunderstand what you're getting
into.
First time mom, you reallydon't understand what you're
(28:33):
getting into Exactly.
Her labor was not easy.
It turned into a very longlabor in which she was like you
are not allowed to leave me,Stay here and help.
And I was awake with her for aday and a half and helping.
Let's try this movement here.
I'll support you here.
Here, let me rub your back herehad no training other than I
had lived through it myself andI'm a very supportive, aware
(28:56):
person.
And after my niece was born,the nurses, my brother-in-law
and my sister were all like youshould do that.
You're really good at that, andso it was kind of like it just
fell in my lap.
Yeah, that was kind ofexhilarating and kind of great.
So once I had my third daughter, I went ahead and like was
certified and went through allthe training.
(29:18):
I love doing it In reality, likepart of who I am as a human
being, is somebody who wants tosupport and create community,
and I want to experience thehard shit with you.
I don't do surface stuff, sure,you want to go look at a
concert or look at art or watcha movie, great.
(29:39):
But you want to talk to meabout hard stuff, I'm here for
it.
Or you need support throughsomething crazy, I'm all in.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
You sound like an amazing friend to have, because
not so many people will stand byyou when things are really,
really difficult.
People are fortunate to haveyou as their birth doula or
their friend or family member,and I'm really grateful to know
you.
Let's talk about how you'rehelping survivors through the
organization Louder Than Silence.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
So Louder Than Silence.
I actually found them after Ihad fully decided like
Christianity is not for me andChristianity, as you had said,
was my only community.
That was all I had, so it wasextremely lonely.
I was also processing being avictim of sexual violence and
sitting in that for like thefirst time of my life.
(30:28):
So Louder Than Silence is anonprofit based in Austin, texas
, pretty close to you guys, thatprovides services to victims of
sexual violence.
Our two big things is buildingcommunity.
What I needed at the time wascommunity and our other thing is
we pay for EMDR therapy.
So we run 12-week peer supportgroups, which is now one of the
(30:52):
main things that I do.
We actually have one startingthis month and then another one
starting in August and you justsit in a room with people who
have experienced what you'veexperienced and we talk through
how that's affected your life.
Be very helpful knowing that,the way you have learned to cope
(31:12):
with it so-and-so over here hasalso coped with it that way.
Oh, I'm not crazy, because we'veall done it, and so right now
that's what I do.
I run those programs.
I don't live in Austin Texas,so I just do the virtual things.
We also have in-person events,and right now we are having a
fundraising campaign to try toget our waitlist for EMDR
completely cleared.
We've cleared half of ourwaitlist, so if you have money
(31:34):
burning in your pocket and wantto help out survivors, visit
louderthansilenceorg.
We are changing lives.
They changed my life, they paidfor my EMDR and this is just my
way of paying it forward.
Plus, every day in thecommunity is also healing me.
It is now my community and mysafe place and, as you said, if
(31:55):
you want a friend like me, justjoin.
Join louder than silence,because I'm there.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
I want a friend like you.
I'm so glad that we've had theopportunity to meet and talk
about your story and about yourmemoir, and it sounds like you
have established the communitythat you always needed and
always wanted, and it's reallybeautiful to see everything that
you have become.
Would you close out ourconversation with reading a
(32:23):
passage from your book?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
I love this passage.
I also am a painter, so Iactually have a painting that is
specifically around thispassage, where it's talking
about my brain being a gardenand then turning into just like
wild, beautiful wildflowers.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
I would love to see that painting and we'll drop it
in our social posts with thisepisode, if you would,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
I will definitely do that.
Religion is a garden.
It will tell you where you fit.
Roses go here, lilies go there.
You may be this tall, you maybe this color.
Everything out of place will beplucked out.
It has its beauty but needsconstant tending.
The problem was I belonged inthe forest.
(33:06):
I am wild and free.
I am a stream, not a stonefountain.
I am unpaved.
I am now ready to be what Ihave always been.
I am done toiling, I'm doneconforming.
I will miss the garden.
I will not miss what itrequired of me.
If you found yourself banishedfrom the garden or leaving by
(33:29):
choice, know you are welcome inthe forest.
May you flourish here, may yougrow taller and your.
Thank you so much for talkingwith me today, of course.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Thank you for having me.
Genesis Women's Shelter andSupport exists to give women in
abusive situations a way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence, and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
(34:01):
domestic violence.
You can learn more atGenesisShelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
Genesis Women's Shelter, and onX at Genesis Shelter.
The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, 7 days
a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.
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