March 10, 2025 • 42 mins
In honor of Women's History Month this episode features the extraordinary journey of Lola Reid Allin from surviving domestic violence to becoming a groundbreaking female aviator with over 6,000 flight hours and numerous historical firsts in aviation. Lola shares how flying became both her passion and her path to freedom from an abusive marriage.
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When Lola Reid Allin's husband suggested they take flying lessons together, she never imagined aviation would become both her passion and her escape route from domestic abuse. This powerful conversation traces her remarkable journey from controlled spouse to groundbreaking female pilot—accumulating over 6,000 flight hours and becoming the first woman to hold numerous prestigious positions in aviation during an era when women were actively discouraged from such pursuits.
With unflinching honesty, Lola shares the reality of recognizing abuse patterns and finding the strength to leave. The tipping point? Her husband calling her flight instructors to announce her pilot certification before she could share her own accomplishment—a seemingly small but profoundly controlling action that crystalized her decision.
Beyond her aviation achievements, Lola reveals her fascinating second chapter living in Mexico as a scuba dive master and immersing herself in Maya communities across Belize and Mexico. Her anthropological adventures living with indigenous families showcase her boundless curiosity and courage.
Most striking is Lola's revelation about writing her memoir "Highway to the Sky" after discovering in 2014 that despite progress, only about 5% of commercial pilots today are women—barely higher than during her active flying years. Her story illuminates how breaking free from controlling relationships and breaking through gender barriers require the same qualities: unwavering self-belief and the courage to venture into uncharted territory.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
March is Women's History Month in the United
States and today we highlightone of the amazing women who has
not only made history but alsosurvived domestic violence,
accomplished aviator, scuba divemaster, author and survivor.
Lola Reed Allen is here toshare her story of not just
survival but also exceptionalbravery in the face of abuse and
sexism in a world that tried todeem her invisible.
(00:22):
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis, the podcast.
Lola Reed Allen is a formerairline transport pilot with
more than 6,000 hours of flighttime, a pilot examiner and the
first female chief flightinstructor at two flight schools
.
She's the first woman to flythe Twin Otter for a scheduled
(00:44):
air service.
She's the first woman to flythe Twin Otter for a scheduled
air service.
She is commemorated on the Wallof Women in Aviation History at
the Bush Plain Museum in Salt,st Marie, and the first female
female supervisor employed by DeHavilland Flight Safety in
Downsview, ontario.
In addition, she's a scuba divemaster and an award-winning
author and photographer whosework has appeared in many
(01:07):
notable local, national andinternational publications,
including National Post, globeand Mail, toronto Star, national
Geographic, santa Fe Center forPhotography and others.
To promote the role of women inaviation and to encourage other
females to consider aviationcareers role of women in
aviation.
And to encourage other femalesto consider aviation careers.
(01:28):
Lola is a speaker with theNorthern Lights Aero Foundation
and the Eastern Ontario 99'sEducation and Outreach Committee
.
In 2022, she and Robin Hadfield, the International 99's
president, created the New TrackScholarship, an annual award
for female pilots.
She joins us today to discussher memoir Highway to the Sky an
Aviator's Journey.
Lola, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Maria, thank you so much for inviting me, and I'm
delighted to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
I'm really excited to talk to you.
There's so much to talk about.
Hopefully we'll have enoughtime to get it all in.
You are a survivor of domesticviolence, and that is kind of
how we were brought together forthis conversation, but you're
also a pilot and a scuba divemaster, a world traveler, and
now you are an author andprobably so much more.
(02:14):
So we have a lot to discuss,and I'd like to start with your
decision to take flying lessonsand pursue a pilot license.
Tell us about that lessons andpursue a pilot license.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Tell us about that.
It was something I'd alwayswanted to do, but being a little
girl in the 1960s, I wasn'tencouraged.
Probably two different reasonsmy father, just because he
wasn't terribly supportive.
He didn't really want children,he didn't want to have either
of my mother's pregnancies, buthe also didn't want to terminate
the pregnancies either.
(02:46):
So there's a bit of a conundrumthere.
And so they were uprightparents and did the right things
, but he wasn't supportive,being very dismissive of women
in general.
And my mom wasn't supportivebecause she knew what was in
store for me, I guess.
So in 1947, she was an educatedwoman, which was relatively
(03:07):
uncommon in 1947.
And when she got married in1947, she was forced to quit her
job.
She was employed by theCanadian government, and the
Canadian government at the timedid obviously employ women, but
not married women, who weresupposed to be at home, where
(03:27):
they belonged, looking aftertheir husbands.
And so she did.
Ultimately she changed careersand she worked as a legal
secretary, but I'm sure she knewwhat was coming.
You know my desire to dosomething different, to be, you
know, out there and doingsomething exciting, but she
herself I can only presume she'sbeen dead many decades now had
a lot of pushback as well.
(03:48):
So of course, when she wastrying to dissuade me from all
of this as a teenager, Imisinterpreted it as you hate me
, you don't love me, you don'tsupport me, that kind of stuff.
As an older person I realizedshe probably did have my back
after all.
As an older person I realizedshe probably did have my back
after all.
But so I kind of gave up thedream.
I got a job at the bank.
I was doing reasonably well, Iwas a supervisor, it was in the
(04:12):
computer department and myhusband actually the bully who
was emotionally abusiveinitially suggested we take up
flying and I, of course, waspretty shocked, you know, like I
don't think I can do that.
And he said I've always wantedto do it, or words like that.
(04:34):
So I thought, fine, okay, well,where will we learn to fly?
Because that's a big thing.
Maybe I want to fly, but wheredo I go to learn to fly?
Well, he said I was out today.
He was an inspector with thehealth of animals in the
Canadian government and he saidI found this little airport and
I signed us up for flightlessons.
(04:55):
It's like what.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Wow, so he had already signed you up for these
flight lessons even before you.
Just one, just one, okay.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
An introductory flight you started.
I mean, there are schools now,uh, where you enroll, and you
enroll for your not the entiretyof your aviation training, but
enough to get you trained sothat you can fly professionally.
But no, he just booked us forthe introductory flight and you
know, he said, you know, if youdon't like it, obviously we
don't have to continue.
(05:25):
It's not a pressure thing, butit would be fun, it would be
something for us to do and sureenough, we would go to the
airport and if he went flying,or when he went flying, I looked
after our son, who was three,and then we'd flip-flop I'd go
flying and he'd look after ourson.
So he was a good guy basically,just with some demons.
(05:46):
Anyway, after maybe I'm goingto say five hours, six hours, I
realized how much I really lovedit.
Part of it scared me, but Ireally really loved it and I
thought I'm definitely up forthis challenge and I went solo,
I got my private license andthen it was just like no
stopping me.
I was sorry you took off.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I mean, things really took off.
I literally I'm sorry for thepun, but it's true and in the
book you go into a lot moredetail about what the flying
lessons were like, what theenvironment was like.
Tell us a little bit about thattoo.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
The environment was male.
Now it wasn't toxic male.
You know, I had some greatinstructors.
I learned something from everyone of them.
I learned more from some ofthem, obviously, but everyone
taught me something and theflight lessons were fun.
They were difficult in thesense of you had to do like so
(06:45):
much.
If you don't do any of thestudying, it's going to be much
more difficult.
So there was a lot of studyinginvolved a lot of pre-flight
preparation in terms of knowinghow the aircraft worked, how the
engine worked, knowing aboutair regulations, air navigation
orders.
There's a lot to learn, butnone of it is outrageously
(07:05):
difficult or beyond the scope ofsort of the average person
who's very determined to fly.
Flying lessons were fun.
Some were scary, but they wereall fun.
And the ones that were scary,that is, they would be the
exercises, stalls, spins,spirals, simulated engine
(07:26):
failures, which is called aforced approach.
All of those have an element of.
I mean they even sound a littledangerous, right?
Speaker 1 (07:32):
They do.
I'm really, I'm reallyterrified right now.
Yeah, I would not be able to dothis, but keep going, keep
going.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Anyway, I just learned to master them and I
just had so much fun and it wasso empowering, so gratifying, so
energizing, that it wasn't evenreally a conscious decision
that, yes, I was going tocontinue flying.
It was just I'm going tocontinue flying and at some
(08:00):
point I'm going to quit myperfectly good job, as my
parents said, and become acommercial pilot.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
How long did it take you to make that decision?
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Well, within a year.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Well, I mean maybe that's the wrong question.
How long did it take you tomake the decision and then
execute it?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
A year.
So March 17th was my firstflight and I guess slightly
longer year.
So March 17th was my firstflight and I guess slightly
longer.
But then I quit my job in Marchof the following year, which
would be 1980.
And then I took an instructorrating and then I started
working as an instructor June1st, so my first lesson was
(08:41):
March 17th.
But I didn't fly.
At first we thought, oh, youknow, you can go flying every
couple of weeks, which, by theway, is not a good way to learn
a new skill.
I mean, you do need to fly orwhatever it is.
Play guitar Practice practice,practice.
You have to learn it and thenyou have to learn enough of it
(09:03):
and be proficient enough thatyou don't have to keep
relearning every single time yousit down to play the guitar or
get in an airplane to fly theairplane.
So once we my husband and Irealized that I think we started
flying like two or three timesa week, maybe in April and May,
and then I did a very intensivetraining on our holidays up in
(09:25):
Northern Ontario in Scottishcountry, and I just spent two
weeks just finishing my privatepilot license and that was great
because you just you couldremember what you did from the
morning.
Obviously right One would hope.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah, so it's fascinating and, like I said, in
the book there's a lot moredetail and I'm going to fast
forward us a little bit toanother topic that kind of gets
ahead of ourselves, but thenwe'll work our way back, because
taking flying lessons, changingcareers a complete pivot.
Now you were a banker, you arenow a pilot.
It's a huge change.
(10:01):
But then, after your motherdied, a lot changed for you
again.
Please tell us about thatchapter of your life.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Well, it was surprising that she died.
She hadn't been looking afterherself, she was overweight, she
didn't exercise, she was asmoker.
So the heart attack itselfwasn't a shock, but dying from
the heart attack was astonishingconsidering, especially since
she lived for three daysfollowing the heart attack was
astonishing considering,especially since she lived for
three days following the heartattack.
So we thought, oh, this isgreat, it's going to be a nice
(10:30):
wake up call and in fact it wasjust devastating.
And what was we always expect?
Our parents would die before us.
However, my grandmother was now,who was now a widow, who had
been a widow for a couple ofyears, had now lost her only
child.
So she was a basket case, asyou can imagine.
(10:51):
She was elderly, she was in her80s, late 80s.
So because my grandparents hadbeen instrumental in raising me
when I was a little girl, andthen after school, like
preschool, and then after school, as I mentioned, my mom worked
full time, my dad worked fulltime and even though they were
(11:11):
wonderful parents, mygrandparents took over very
willingly.
They had wanted more than onechild my mother but couldn't
have them.
So they were delighted withgrandchildren and my parents, as
I mentioned, were good parents.
They did all the right things,you know right school, good
clothes, holidays, airplanerides.
That was pretty cool.
But they were more reserved andperhaps like the sort of the
(11:36):
British nanny or au pair system.
They were kind but not reallyloving.
Anyway, my grandparents were mysaving grace and so I felt kind
of obliged and I cared for mygrandmother.
So I stuck around for a coupleof years and then I by that time
I had a scuba dive license, anopen water certificate.
(11:58):
But I went with my girlfriendin the scuba dive club to
Cozumel, mexico, and halfwaythrough the week I turned to my
best friend and I said that's it, I am moving here.
And she said, oh, wouldn't thatbe wonderful?
And I went no, no, seriously,I'm moving here.
And by this time my grandmotherwas in a nursing home.
She'd had a stroke and wasstill very cognizant, but needed
(12:22):
24-7 care, so she was in anursing home.
I no longer felt that I neededto be there all the time.
It worked out really well, andso nine months later I had sold
my house.
I moved to Mexico.
I was now a scuba dive master,and I worked as a scuba dive
master and managed a scuba diveshop.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
That's incredible.
It's such a 180 from you know,working in a bank and being,
like you know, settled, butcontent and not really living
your dream Right.
But you're leaving out one ofthe better parts, and that is
your experience with Maya family.
So tell us about a little bitabout that, ah.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
So I had wanted to move to Mexico because I mean,
it's beautiful If anyone who'sbeen there.
It's stunning.
It's beautiful If anyone who'sbeen there.
It's stunning, it's beautiful.
I could be scuba diving everyday.
The guys I worked with wereawesome.
They were all with oneexception.
They were all Yucatan Mayan,which refers to their place of
origin, the Yucatan Peninsula,but also their language.
(13:21):
And I had studied anthropologyin university, not so much the
Maya but anthropology.
And one course in particularleft a lasting impression and it
was of a woman, our professor,dorothy Counts, who had lived in
the Pacific, and I took thecourse just because I needed the
credit, didn't think it wasgoing to be that interesting.
(13:42):
It turned out to be the bestcourse ever because she had
lived there, he had experientialknowledge, she didn't have to
look it up in a book and shewould show us these great images
, these great slides that she'dtaken on the three or four
islands that she'd actuallylived on, much like Margaret
Mead, and coming of age in Samoa.
(14:04):
So it's like, wow, this isreally amazing.
And again, at the time I didn'treally think, oh, I'm going to
move to Mexico and I'm going tostudy the Maya and I'm going to
take photos and write a bookabout them, although while I was
there I did write severalarticles for niche publications
and for the Mexican NationalTourism Board about the Maya and
(14:27):
the Maya lands.
But very soon I would adjust myschedule so that I could go and
stay with the Maya in otherareas, so specifically Belize
the Mopan Maya in southwesternBelize and then also the
Lacandon Maya in the ChiapasHighlands of Mexico, and I
(14:50):
actually live in their homes.
So it's not just as if I'mliving in the village, but I and
you know I go and join them forlunch or something, but no, I'm
there 24-7, which is a bitdifficult because maybe I'm sure
it's difficult for them tohaving a stranger in their house
.
But it's possibly a bit lessdifficult because I'm adjusting
(15:14):
to their schedule, their food,their time frames and they're
already used to having anywherefrom six to eight children.
So you know, eight to tenpeople in a house and it's a
very small one-room house,usually with a divider, but
basically one room with adivider.
So it's very difficult, but youreally get the feel of what
(15:37):
it's like to live in a ruralarea in a thatched roof.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
I would think so.
Yeah, I would think so.
Yeah, I would think so.
I mean, that's incredible.
I'm curious.
How does one just decide thatthey are going to live in the
house with another family inthis part of the world, and then
it happens.
What is that process?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Well, it was sort of.
I met some people.
In one case I happened to picka bed and breakfast, that was.
It looked, you know, prettycute.
It was in the central area ofsouthwestern Belize and, as it
turned out, I couldn't havepicked a better person to
introduce me to people in thatarea.
(16:18):
Yes, it was a B&B, but it wasowned by the local store owner,
who had adjacent property, andhis wife who was they had been
for the last 30 years the schoolprincipal, vice principal,
sorry at one of the localschools.
So she knew everyone andeveryone knew her.
(16:39):
So you basically just had tosay hi, I'm a friend of Teacher
Marie, and doors opened and thenI, you know, I met him, and if
she didn't know somebody, sheknew someone who did.
And in one case, you know, Ijust hopped on the bus and went
to a village called San Pedro,colombia, and knocked on the
(17:02):
store door, the store owner'sdoor, and introduced myself and
said able to stay here, for afee, obviously, and sure, a
little bit.
A lot more adventurous was inMexico, when I stayed in San
(17:23):
Cristobal de las Casas, and Ideliberately chose a B&B, in
essence, but a small boutiquehotel that I knew, the Lacan Don
Maya would stay at occasionally.
And sure enough, on day three,one of the two of the Lacan Don
Maya would stay at occasionally.
And sure enough, on day three,one of the two of the Lacan Don
Maya.
I was having supper with themin a very what do you call it?
A family style long bench tableand I mentioned my interest in
(17:46):
going to their village and hesaid oh sure, just tell them, I
sent you.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Oh my gosh, it's all like so amazing.
There's so much of your story Imean, there's a lot of
challenge, right, and there's alot of struggle and things
happen but so much of your storyjust feels to me like the stars
aligned at times for you tolive the life that you were
meant to live.
Now I have been reading yourbook Highway to the Sky An
(18:13):
Aviator's Journey, which wasreleased in September 2024.
And, like I said, there's waytoo much for me to mention.
So many things have happenedand it's really fantastic,
fantastically interesting storyof your life.
But I'm just going to drop apin and talk about your
childhood for a minute.
We'll go back to like yourgrandfather, your grandmother
(18:35):
and some of the experiences youhad, because in a lot of ways
when I was reading it it feltlike you almost seem born to do
all of these incredible things.
Would you agree with that?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
I don't know.
I do know that my grandfatherencouraged me to do outdoorsy
type things.
We did.
My parents took us camping aswell, but my grandparents would
take us tenting and it was alittle bit more rustic, right,
and they would take us me.
Actually we did epic tripsacross North America, to the
(19:14):
East Coast in northern UnitedStates and we did tenting, and
what they wanted to do was theywere retired.
He was retired from the postoffice and had taken up the
avocation of genealogy, so theywould travel around doing
research on specific families,would travel around doing
(19:34):
research on specific families.
So and they combined it with,you know, teaching me various
things history, geography, youknow the things you do with
little kids, education books.
And when my sister came alongseven years later, nearly eight
years later, it was even morepolarized.
(19:56):
She clearly wanted to spendtime with grandmother inside
cooking and baking, and I didn'treally want to do that at all.
I was always out with mygrandfather and it's hard to say
what comes first, but as achild I also watched reruns of
Sky King and Sea Hunt and it'skind of ironic really that.
I mean, was I drawn to thembecause I liked those things, or
(20:18):
did I become a scuba diver anda pilot because I watched Sky
King and Sea Hunt.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
I mean those are all Hard to say, right?
Yeah, hard to say.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Exactly, you know, it's certainly.
Obviously I was influenced, I'msure, by the media.
Sky King is about a man namedSkyler King who flies a twin
engine airplane in Arizona and Irecently watched one of them on
YouTube and it's cute, I mean,it's kind of hokey.
It was from the 1950s, 1960s,black and white, obviously, and
(20:51):
it was really exciting.
I mean, as a child it wasincredibly exciting and for the
time period obviously too.
But he had a niece, penny, whoalso flew with him, but perhaps
the role wasn't perhaps asempowering as it could be.
She would take control if hewas incapacitated or if he asked
(21:13):
her to take control because heneeded to do something during
the flight.
Um, like in the episode Iwatched, they were throwing big
boulders out of the plane onto aboat down below.
Now I really think that wouldhave hit the wing, since it was
a low wing aircraft.
But anyway, that's what thethat's what the plot was
boulders out the window, hey, um, but, and sea hunt is um, lloyd
(21:40):
bridges, who's the dad of jeffbridges and beau bridges, and
again, you know very oldtechnology, scuba diving.
But it was fabulously excitingas a child I mean, all the
challenges he had and so, funnything, I grew up to do both
those things.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
It's remarkable really, and, as I mentioned
along the way, there were a lotof other things, and the thing
that really brought us togetherand introduced me to you and
your book is the fact that youare a survivor of domestic
violence.
You've been on this amazingjourney of your life and there
have been these challenges.
In the book, you wrote aboutthe anger and control by your
(22:22):
husband ex-husband, includinghow alcohol addiction played a
role in the relationship, aswell as his violent physical
abuse after your separation.
Will you tell us what happenedto you and how you managed to
break away from his power andcontrol tactics and leave this
relationship?
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Yes, I always had a really good sense of self-worth,
which is very important.
I knew that I didn't want to bebullied, but I also knew that
he had no right to bully me andinitially I suppose I let him do
it a little bit.
You know, you think you know.
Maybe he's had a bad day.
He's just crabby and miserableand I was in love with him.
(23:02):
He was my husband, so I wantedto give him the benefit of the
doubt, but I would say, you know, just because you've had a bad
day, this is not my fault, let'stalk about it.
And I don't like the way you'retreating me, but that didn't
(23:24):
seem to work.
That didn't change his behaviortoward me and I certainly have
never liked being bossed aroundand who does right.
But I think it was when Ireally got to know his parents
who, of course, for the firstfew times that we met and you
know, of course, at the weddingand then afterwards for the
first year, maybe they put ontheir best face and she was very
nice.
His mother, yeah, his mom, yes,my mother-in-law was just
(23:48):
really a shell of what I imagineshe had been or what she could
have been or and have been, buthe was a real bully and he would
boss her around and demandthings and you know it was his
house and he would buy whateverhe wanted.
He had an airplane, he would goflying.
He would fly up, uh, up to thearctic.
I mean again, he was afascinating person but there
(24:11):
wasn't enough money for for nies, there wasn't enough money to
buy the things she wanted, andthat type of deprivation wasn't
something my husband even tried.
I had a job, we had two cars.
He never discouraged me frommeeting friends, going out Well,
(24:32):
reasonably, obviously, butgoing out with friends taking
night courses.
We had a joint bank account butwe had separate bank accounts.
So he was a very reasonableperson that way.
So he was a little bitdifferent than some people who
are sort of the ultimate inpower and control and they
restrict the movement of theirspouse to the point where she no
(24:55):
longer has any autonomy, nofriends, no ability to go out,
and her life is just him, him,him.
That wasn't the case with me,but it was when I realized that
he, my husband, was emulatingthe learned behaviors that he'd
seen his father act out towardshis mother.
(25:17):
So my mother, my father-in-lawand my mother-in-law, and I
realized that Paul was doingthose and it would probably
escalate.
And although it hadn't impactedour three-year, I didn't
believe it to have impacted ourthree-year-old son.
At that point I knew it wouldand I thought I don't want to
live this way and I don't wantmy son to internalize those
(25:38):
behaviors.
And at that point I knew I hadto leave, although I had not yet
decided.
Sort of when, about a yearbefore I left him, we did move,
we relocated, he got a new job,still with the government, but a
new job in a different city,and I thought then that I should
not be moving.
(25:58):
But I decided that perhaps Iwas being unfair in the sense of
he would now have a new job.
It was an increase, it was apromotion.
He would have a new job, newfriends, new area.
Maybe things would be different, and they were initially.
But then he kind of quicklyslipped back into you know, too
much drinking and verballyabusive and a couple backhands.
(26:23):
One backhand is too many.
But again, I think most of us,if we love our partner, are
willing to or are so hopefulthat that's a one off and it'll
never happen again.
And I think we tend to givepeople the benefit of the doubt,
and that's a good thing.
But at what point do we stop?
At what point is hitting toomuch?
(26:44):
One hit is too much.
But it's a little bit moredifficult with verbal abuse and
belittling Although again, hewas mostly just a nasty,
miserable drunk who said nastythings.
But that's not pleasant to livewith either and I consider that
abuse.
Anybody that talks over theirI'm going to say wife in this
case but talks over theirpartner, or talks in a group of
(27:06):
people, keeps interrupting,talks over them, belittles them,
says disparaging things to themand about them all of that is
abuse says disparaging things tothem and about them.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
All of that is abuse, absolutely, and I'm very sorry
you endured all of that, andthen you did decide, though,
eventually, that you were goingto leave the marriage.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
I did and um, only, I think only people who study
abuse or have been in abusewould understand how important
this is.
Is this next what the actualimpetus was?
Because when I wrote about itat first, and even when I had a
developmental editor, she saidso what's the big problem with
that?
So he made a phone call but forsomeone who was really feeling
(27:48):
under the thumb of power andcontrol, I had it.
So what Paul had done was hehad, because we, because we had,
or I had, changed flightschools.
I got licensed at the secondflight school but I was still
really in tune with myinstructors at the first flight
school and I couldn't wait totell them that I passed my
private pilot flight test.
(28:08):
I was so excited I couldn'twait.
But, um, on the first day backof work I was busy until I don't
know 11 o'clock noon-ish.
Whenever I really had time as asupervisor.
I had to wait until I couldmake a phone call and by the
time I did, the chief flyinginstructor said oh,
congratulations, so happy foryou and Paul.
(28:30):
Even before I'd left the home atmorning I was in the shower.
He called them to tell them Ihad passed my flight test and I
thought that is it.
So again, that may not seemlike abuse, but it is.
It's a very specific controlthat you're not telling them
your news.
I'm going to tell yourinstructors your news because
(28:53):
you belong to me when I can tellthem, and I thought that's it.
So during that day at work Iwas so angry I guess I should
have maybe called the flightschool earlier, but I'd
certainly made time now to findan apartment to live in, and
apartments were easy to findthere where I was in a bigger
(29:13):
city, so I didn't leave rightaway.
It took three weeks for thedepartment to be ready, but I
went home and told him that Iwas leaving.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
That's remarkable.
It takes a remarkable amount ofcourage and planning.
You had already been thinkingabout doing this.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
I've had.
That's right, I had.
But it's like writing.
I mean, you don't just think,oh, I think I'm going to write a
book, and then you sit down andwrite 344 pages.
It just doesn't happen that way.
You know, I've been thinkingabout it, Some of the stories
I'd been mulling over in my mindfor years not stories, but the,
the events you know andthinking about it, and and I I
(29:52):
won't say it was cathartic,because I never blamed anybody,
with one exception of, that is,of the people with whom I worked
, because they too were part ofthe environment.
They were products of theenvironment, Just like my
husband.
My ex-husband was raised tobelieve that's the way you
treated women, right, that'swhat he saw.
(30:14):
He saw it at the particularchurch they went to.
Women were second class, Womensat separately.
Women were told what to do.
His mother was told what to doat home.
That's how women were treated.
So it wasn't that surprisingthat so many people were shocked
that I was flying an airplane.
The guys I worked with they'dnever seen a female pilot before
(30:37):
either, so it was very new.
And most of the in theirexperience, the women they knew,
whether personally orobservationally, the women they
dated women.
They married a woman.
They married.
They were not professionalwomen, they were lovely people,
but they worked in the home orhad jobs.
(31:00):
And by jobs I mean to say theyworked not so much for personal
satisfaction but to bring moneyinto the home, and again, that's
laudable.
But it is different to have acareer rather than just I'm
going to go get a job at thelocal grocery store to bring in
more money.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
It's a very different , very different perception of
yeah, and I can see that nowflying and maybe even scuba
diving are very male dominatedplaces to have a hobby or even
focus your career places to havea hobby or even focus your
(31:38):
career and I would think thosecould also have been abusive
environments or, at a minimum,very sexist places for you.
What was that like and how didyou manage to thrive in those
environments?
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Well, you're certainly right, they're both
very male dominated.
There are some female scubadive instructors and scuba dive
masters, but again, it's verymale dominated.
I didn't have any issues therewith, there were no problems
whatsoever.
I was very well respected andintegrated beautifully and I
(32:08):
really enjoyed the guys who weresuper helpful and taught me how
to speak Spanish, and with anexcellent accent.
So I'm forever grateful to them.
Not so much in aviation.
Initially, when I was takingflight lessons, I was welcomed,
certainly by the schools and bythe instructors, because the
(32:31):
aviation is a fairly low profitmargin, so they try to welcome
students.
It was only when I, as mygrandfather put but immediately
apologized, as my grandfathersaid, it was only when I started
taking jobs from men that therewas a bit of pushback, not from
(32:53):
everybody.
And there was a bit of pushbacknot from everybody.
I had support groups in thesense of allies at every company
that I worked with or worked atthe guys.
Most of the guys were great.
Some were ambivalent.
Mostly I won them over, butthere were a couple in both in
two different places, that werejust did not think that women
(33:16):
had a place in aviation as apilot at any rate.
So that was difficult.
How did I succeed?
I just kept getting moreratings and doing flight tests
and getting you know.
You know I got to the top ofthe instructor platform, or
whatever you want to call it.
So you start as a class fourand then you go to class three,
(33:36):
class two, class one, so as aclass one instructor, there
weren't and aren't that many, soyou're certainly respected that
way.
I had about 6,000 hours.
I had taken the same flighttests and exams that the guys
did.
So after a while they, you know, they sort of have to believe
that you're qualified.
But I guess I believed inmyself.
(33:58):
I just did my job.
That's really it, you know.
And I thought you know, youknow they'll get used to it.
Even the chief pilot said, oh,don't worry about them, that you
know they'll get over it,they'll get used to it.
And I think that you know, astime went on and I flew with,
you know, a variety of captainsand first officers that people
did get more comfortable was theonly female.
(34:29):
So it wasn't like there wasanother woman that came on board
that we would have.
I would have another femaleally.
It was always me and all theseguys.
There were other femalecommercial pilots, obviously,
but we were so far apart andnone of them were at the same
airport that I was and they werehundreds of miles away.
So occasionally I did hear themon the radio.
(34:49):
Occasionally we ran into eachother on the ramp.
But you know, it's hard.
It certainly in the 80s without, and 90s without internet and
Zoom, it was hard to form afriendship really with someone
that lived 800 miles or so fromyou.
So it was a pretty lonely,lonely occupation.
But I kept myself busy.
I worked, I taught part-time atthe local flying school, I
(35:15):
attended university viacorrespondence, and then I had
our son and we shared jointcustody.
We shared joint custody formost of his well, all of his,
all of his young life.
So so it was busy.
I just, I just did my job andkept on.
It didn't feel like I was doinganything special.
That was maybe the funniestthing.
(35:36):
It was just like you know what?
I'm?
Just here, I'm doing my job.
What is the problem, right?
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Right, right, no problem.
I say no problem.
What made you decide to writeyour memoir about these
experiences?
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Well, when I realized that some of those obviously
not the same exact experiences,but that that attitude that
women didn't belong in aviation,and there was still pushbacks
from other pilots male pilots,from the industry in some cases,
and from passengers who werereluctant to believe that women
(36:16):
were capable of flying airplanesand I was absolutely astonished
because I actually it happenedin 2014.
And I saw an article.
My husband drew it to myattention.
It was in Canada and andWestJet is one of our major
carriers in Western Canada andone of the pilots a female.
The captain received this noteon WestJet you know the little
(36:38):
napkins that they have and Iparaphrased that.
It said something like DearCaptain, westjet, women have no
place in a cockpit.
We are short mothers and wives.
The next time WestJet has afair lady at the helm, please
let me know so I can takeanother flight.
And to say that that wasastonishing was an
(37:04):
understatement.
I was galvanized.
I simply had absolutely no ideathat that attitude still
prevailed.
I was focusing now on doing myresearch with the Maya and to
Belize, guatemala and Mexico.
It was often better, sincethere were very few was only
(37:26):
only one non-stop flight fromToronto to Cancun, whereas it
was easier for me to take theAmerican hub system.
You know, atlanta, houston,miami and I'd always see female
pilots walking through the theterminals and I was so excited
and I was so happy for them.
Yeah, maybe a little jealoustoo, but I was so happy for them
and I thought there's a lotmore female pilots.
This is great, you know.
Obviously the attitude has sohappy for them.
(37:46):
Yeah, I'd be a little jealoustoo, but I was so happy for them
and I thought there's a lotmore female pilots.
This is great, you know.
Obviously the attitude ischanging.
There they are, they're walkingwith the captain or with the
other, the flight crew.
This is great.
What I didn't realize until Istarted doing research and
started reaching out to twomajor support groups for female
(38:08):
pilots Women in AviationInternational and the 99's
International Organization ofWomen Pilots I didn't realize
that, yes, there are a lot morefemale pilots who are flying
commercially.
So I was right, but I was wrongin the sense of percentage-wise.
It's still at about 5%.
That is, only about 5% ofcommercial pilots are female and
(38:32):
the number is slightly morethan it was in the 80s and 90s,
but by half a percent.
So at that point I thought, wow, this is amazing.
I'm going to write my story andtalk about the things that
happened to me so that I cantalk about these things, that I
have a book that people can readabout and, like you, maria, we
(38:55):
can sit here and we can talkabout these issues that are
still ongoing and, of course,with all the furor now that's
going on after the crash inToronto last week and the
alleged but apparently incorrectassumption that the flight crew
were not qualified, but I guessthere's been a lot of pushback,
(39:15):
a lot of negative reaction towomen who are flying now for the
major airlines, so that'sreally unfortunate.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Yeah, it is very unfortunate, to say the least,
and typically when there is awoman in the cockpit, the
fingers start pointing to her.
We've seen that in the past fewweeks here, also in the United
States, so that's not lost on meor anyone else that there's a
lot of sexism that still exists,and this is just one place
where it seems to be veryprevalent.
(39:48):
So before I let you go, lola,I'm curious what's next for you.
Do you have another adventurethat you're planning?
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Well, maybe not so much an adventure, but I'm going
to Denver next month for theWomen in Aviation International
Convention and I'm going to bethere with a group called the
Literary Aviatrix, and I'll bethere with 34 other female
authors Most of us are alsopilots or we're writing about
(40:17):
women in aviation and I'mworking on my next book, which
is sort of what happened to Lolaafter aviation, which is moving
to Mexico and my time livingwith the three different Maya
groups.
So that's what's next up.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Well, that's a lot Okay, so I can't wait for the
next book.
I can't wait to talk to youagain sometime in the future.
Tell us your website so peoplecan learn more.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Well, it's lolareadallencom and you can
reach out to me directly throughthe website or just directly at
lolareidallencom and the bookis available widely from Simon
Schuster.
You can order from thepublisher, you could order from
amazoncom Back on Amazon's Top100 again.
(41:05):
I was so excited, Outstanding,it was there a couple weeks ago.
Yeah, it was there a coupleweeks ago Top 100 in Aviation
and Nautical Biography and it'sback up again today.
So I was really pretty excitedabout that.
So you can get it from Amazon.
I actually had an email theother day from a reader in
Finland.
A guy who'd heard me on anotherpodcast bought the book and
(41:27):
couldn't wait to tell me howmuch he enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Outstanding Lola, thank you so much for talking
with me today.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Well, thank you, I've had a great time.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
Genesis Women's Shelter and Support exists to
give women in abusive situationsa way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
(41:55):
domestic violence.
You can learn more atgenesisshelterorg and when you
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Genesis Women's Shelter, and onX at Genesis Shelter.
The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, seven
days a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.
March is Women's History Month in the United
States and today we highlightone of the amazing women who has
not only made history but alsosurvived domestic violence,
accomplished aviator, scuba divemaster, author and survivor.
Lola Reed Allen is here toshare her story of not just
survival but also exceptionalbravery in the face of abuse and
sexism in a world that tried todeem her invisible.
(00:22):
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis, the podcast.
Lola Reed Allen is a formerairline transport pilot with
more than 6,000 hours of flighttime, a pilot examiner and the
first female chief flightinstructor at two flight schools
.
She's the first woman to flythe Twin Otter for a scheduled
(00:44):
air service.
She's the first woman to flythe Twin Otter for a scheduled
air service.
She is commemorated on the Wallof Women in Aviation History at
the Bush Plain Museum in Salt,st Marie, and the first female
female supervisor employed by DeHavilland Flight Safety in
Downsview, ontario.
In addition, she's a scuba divemaster and an award-winning
author and photographer whosework has appeared in many
(01:07):
notable local, national andinternational publications,
including National Post, globeand Mail, toronto Star, national
Geographic, santa Fe Center forPhotography and others.
To promote the role of women inaviation and to encourage other
females to consider aviationcareers role of women in
aviation.
And to encourage other femalesto consider aviation careers.
(01:28):
Lola is a speaker with theNorthern Lights Aero Foundation
and the Eastern Ontario 99'sEducation and Outreach Committee
.
In 2022, she and Robin Hadfield, the International 99's
president, created the New TrackScholarship, an annual award
for female pilots.
She joins us today to discussher memoir Highway to the Sky an
Aviator's Journey.
Lola, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Maria, thank you so much for inviting me, and I'm
delighted to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
I'm really excited to talk to you.
There's so much to talk about.
Hopefully we'll have enoughtime to get it all in.
You are a survivor of domesticviolence, and that is kind of
how we were brought together forthis conversation, but you're
also a pilot and a scuba divemaster, a world traveler, and
now you are an author andprobably so much more.
(02:14):
So we have a lot to discuss,and I'd like to start with your
decision to take flying lessonsand pursue a pilot license.
Tell us about that lessons andpursue a pilot license.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Tell us about that.
It was something I'd alwayswanted to do, but being a little
girl in the 1960s, I wasn'tencouraged.
Probably two different reasonsmy father, just because he
wasn't terribly supportive.
He didn't really want children,he didn't want to have either
of my mother's pregnancies, buthe also didn't want to terminate
the pregnancies either.
(02:46):
So there's a bit of a conundrumthere.
And so they were uprightparents and did the right things
, but he wasn't supportive,being very dismissive of women
in general.
And my mom wasn't supportivebecause she knew what was in
store for me, I guess.
So in 1947, she was an educatedwoman, which was relatively
(03:07):
uncommon in 1947.
And when she got married in1947, she was forced to quit her
job.
She was employed by theCanadian government, and the
Canadian government at the timedid obviously employ women, but
not married women, who weresupposed to be at home, where
(03:27):
they belonged, looking aftertheir husbands.
And so she did.
Ultimately she changed careersand she worked as a legal
secretary, but I'm sure she knewwhat was coming.
You know my desire to dosomething different, to be, you
know, out there and doingsomething exciting, but she
herself I can only presume she'sbeen dead many decades now had
a lot of pushback as well.
(03:48):
So of course, when she wastrying to dissuade me from all
of this as a teenager, Imisinterpreted it as you hate me
, you don't love me, you don'tsupport me, that kind of stuff.
As an older person I realizedshe probably did have my back
after all.
As an older person I realizedshe probably did have my back
after all.
But so I kind of gave up thedream.
I got a job at the bank.
I was doing reasonably well, Iwas a supervisor, it was in the
(04:12):
computer department and myhusband actually the bully who
was emotionally abusiveinitially suggested we take up
flying and I, of course, waspretty shocked, you know, like I
don't think I can do that.
And he said I've always wantedto do it, or words like that.
(04:34):
So I thought, fine, okay, well,where will we learn to fly?
Because that's a big thing.
Maybe I want to fly, but wheredo I go to learn to fly?
Well, he said I was out today.
He was an inspector with thehealth of animals in the
Canadian government and he saidI found this little airport and
I signed us up for flightlessons.
(04:55):
It's like what.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Wow, so he had already signed you up for these
flight lessons even before you.
Just one, just one, okay.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
An introductory flight you started.
I mean, there are schools now,uh, where you enroll, and you
enroll for your not the entiretyof your aviation training, but
enough to get you trained sothat you can fly professionally.
But no, he just booked us forthe introductory flight and you
know, he said, you know, if youdon't like it, obviously we
don't have to continue.
(05:25):
It's not a pressure thing, butit would be fun, it would be
something for us to do and sureenough, we would go to the
airport and if he went flying,or when he went flying, I looked
after our son, who was three,and then we'd flip-flop I'd go
flying and he'd look after ourson.
So he was a good guy basically,just with some demons.
(05:46):
Anyway, after maybe I'm goingto say five hours, six hours, I
realized how much I really lovedit.
Part of it scared me, but Ireally really loved it and I
thought I'm definitely up forthis challenge and I went solo,
I got my private license andthen it was just like no
stopping me.
I was sorry you took off.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I mean, things really took off.
I literally I'm sorry for thepun, but it's true and in the
book you go into a lot moredetail about what the flying
lessons were like, what theenvironment was like.
Tell us a little bit about thattoo.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
The environment was male.
Now it wasn't toxic male.
You know, I had some greatinstructors.
I learned something from everyone of them.
I learned more from some ofthem, obviously, but everyone
taught me something and theflight lessons were fun.
They were difficult in thesense of you had to do like so
(06:45):
much.
If you don't do any of thestudying, it's going to be much
more difficult.
So there was a lot of studyinginvolved a lot of pre-flight
preparation in terms of knowinghow the aircraft worked, how the
engine worked, knowing aboutair regulations, air navigation
orders.
There's a lot to learn, butnone of it is outrageously
(07:05):
difficult or beyond the scope ofsort of the average person
who's very determined to fly.
Flying lessons were fun.
Some were scary, but they wereall fun.
And the ones that were scary,that is, they would be the
exercises, stalls, spins,spirals, simulated engine
(07:26):
failures, which is called aforced approach.
All of those have an element of.
I mean they even sound a littledangerous, right?
Speaker 1 (07:32):
They do.
I'm really, I'm reallyterrified right now.
Yeah, I would not be able to dothis, but keep going, keep
going.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Anyway, I just learned to master them and I
just had so much fun and it wasso empowering, so gratifying, so
energizing, that it wasn't evenreally a conscious decision
that, yes, I was going tocontinue flying.
It was just I'm going tocontinue flying and at some
(08:00):
point I'm going to quit myperfectly good job, as my
parents said, and become acommercial pilot.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
How long did it take you to make that decision?
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Well, within a year.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Well, I mean maybe that's the wrong question.
How long did it take you tomake the decision and then
execute it?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
A year.
So March 17th was my firstflight and I guess slightly
longer year.
So March 17th was my firstflight and I guess slightly
longer.
But then I quit my job in Marchof the following year, which
would be 1980.
And then I took an instructorrating and then I started
working as an instructor June1st, so my first lesson was
(08:41):
March 17th.
But I didn't fly.
At first we thought, oh, youknow, you can go flying every
couple of weeks, which, by theway, is not a good way to learn
a new skill.
I mean, you do need to fly orwhatever it is.
Play guitar Practice practice,practice.
You have to learn it and thenyou have to learn enough of it
(09:03):
and be proficient enough thatyou don't have to keep
relearning every single time yousit down to play the guitar or
get in an airplane to fly theairplane.
So once we my husband and Irealized that I think we started
flying like two or three timesa week, maybe in April and May,
and then I did a very intensivetraining on our holidays up in
(09:25):
Northern Ontario in Scottishcountry, and I just spent two
weeks just finishing my privatepilot license and that was great
because you just you couldremember what you did from the
morning.
Obviously right One would hope.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah, so it's fascinating and, like I said, in
the book there's a lot moredetail and I'm going to fast
forward us a little bit toanother topic that kind of gets
ahead of ourselves, but thenwe'll work our way back, because
taking flying lessons, changingcareers a complete pivot.
Now you were a banker, you arenow a pilot.
It's a huge change.
(10:01):
But then, after your motherdied, a lot changed for you
again.
Please tell us about thatchapter of your life.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Well, it was surprising that she died.
She hadn't been looking afterherself, she was overweight, she
didn't exercise, she was asmoker.
So the heart attack itselfwasn't a shock, but dying from
the heart attack was astonishingconsidering, especially since
she lived for three daysfollowing the heart attack was
astonishing considering,especially since she lived for
three days following the heartattack.
So we thought, oh, this isgreat, it's going to be a nice
(10:30):
wake up call and in fact it wasjust devastating.
And what was we always expect?
Our parents would die before us.
However, my grandmother was now,who was now a widow, who had
been a widow for a couple ofyears, had now lost her only
child.
So she was a basket case, asyou can imagine.
(10:51):
She was elderly, she was in her80s, late 80s.
So because my grandparents hadbeen instrumental in raising me
when I was a little girl, andthen after school, like
preschool, and then after school, as I mentioned, my mom worked
full time, my dad worked fulltime and even though they were
(11:11):
wonderful parents, mygrandparents took over very
willingly.
They had wanted more than onechild my mother but couldn't
have them.
So they were delighted withgrandchildren and my parents, as
I mentioned, were good parents.
They did all the right things,you know right school, good
clothes, holidays, airplanerides.
That was pretty cool.
But they were more reserved andperhaps like the sort of the
(11:36):
British nanny or au pair system.
They were kind but not reallyloving.
Anyway, my grandparents were mysaving grace and so I felt kind
of obliged and I cared for mygrandmother.
So I stuck around for a coupleof years and then I by that time
I had a scuba dive license, anopen water certificate.
(11:58):
But I went with my girlfriendin the scuba dive club to
Cozumel, mexico, and halfwaythrough the week I turned to my
best friend and I said that's it, I am moving here.
And she said, oh, wouldn't thatbe wonderful?
And I went no, no, seriously,I'm moving here.
And by this time my grandmotherwas in a nursing home.
She'd had a stroke and wasstill very cognizant, but needed
(12:22):
24-7 care, so she was in anursing home.
I no longer felt that I neededto be there all the time.
It worked out really well, andso nine months later I had sold
my house.
I moved to Mexico.
I was now a scuba dive master,and I worked as a scuba dive
master and managed a scuba diveshop.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
That's incredible.
It's such a 180 from you know,working in a bank and being,
like you know, settled, butcontent and not really living
your dream Right.
But you're leaving out one ofthe better parts, and that is
your experience with Maya family.
So tell us about a little bitabout that, ah.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
So I had wanted to move to Mexico because I mean,
it's beautiful If anyone who'sbeen there.
It's stunning.
It's beautiful If anyone who'sbeen there.
It's stunning, it's beautiful.
I could be scuba diving everyday.
The guys I worked with wereawesome.
They were all with oneexception.
They were all Yucatan Mayan,which refers to their place of
origin, the Yucatan Peninsula,but also their language.
(13:21):
And I had studied anthropologyin university, not so much the
Maya but anthropology.
And one course in particularleft a lasting impression and it
was of a woman, our professor,dorothy Counts, who had lived in
the Pacific, and I took thecourse just because I needed the
credit, didn't think it wasgoing to be that interesting.
(13:42):
It turned out to be the bestcourse ever because she had
lived there, he had experientialknowledge, she didn't have to
look it up in a book and shewould show us these great images
, these great slides that she'dtaken on the three or four
islands that she'd actuallylived on, much like Margaret
Mead, and coming of age in Samoa.
(14:04):
So it's like, wow, this isreally amazing.
And again, at the time I didn'treally think, oh, I'm going to
move to Mexico and I'm going tostudy the Maya and I'm going to
take photos and write a bookabout them, although while I was
there I did write severalarticles for niche publications
and for the Mexican NationalTourism Board about the Maya and
(14:27):
the Maya lands.
But very soon I would adjust myschedule so that I could go and
stay with the Maya in otherareas, so specifically Belize
the Mopan Maya in southwesternBelize and then also the
Lacandon Maya in the ChiapasHighlands of Mexico, and I
(14:50):
actually live in their homes.
So it's not just as if I'mliving in the village, but I and
you know I go and join them forlunch or something, but no, I'm
there 24-7, which is a bitdifficult because maybe I'm sure
it's difficult for them tohaving a stranger in their house
.
But it's possibly a bit lessdifficult because I'm adjusting
(15:14):
to their schedule, their food,their time frames and they're
already used to having anywherefrom six to eight children.
So you know, eight to tenpeople in a house and it's a
very small one-room house,usually with a divider, but
basically one room with adivider.
So it's very difficult, but youreally get the feel of what
(15:37):
it's like to live in a ruralarea in a thatched roof.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
I would think so.
Yeah, I would think so.
Yeah, I would think so.
I mean, that's incredible.
I'm curious.
How does one just decide thatthey are going to live in the
house with another family inthis part of the world, and then
it happens.
What is that process?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Well, it was sort of.
I met some people.
In one case I happened to picka bed and breakfast, that was.
It looked, you know, prettycute.
It was in the central area ofsouthwestern Belize and, as it
turned out, I couldn't havepicked a better person to
introduce me to people in thatarea.
(16:18):
Yes, it was a B&B, but it wasowned by the local store owner,
who had adjacent property, andhis wife who was they had been
for the last 30 years the schoolprincipal, vice principal,
sorry at one of the localschools.
So she knew everyone andeveryone knew her.
(16:39):
So you basically just had tosay hi, I'm a friend of Teacher
Marie, and doors opened and thenI, you know, I met him, and if
she didn't know somebody, sheknew someone who did.
And in one case, you know, Ijust hopped on the bus and went
to a village called San Pedro,colombia, and knocked on the
(17:02):
store door, the store owner'sdoor, and introduced myself and
said able to stay here, for afee, obviously, and sure, a
little bit.
A lot more adventurous was inMexico, when I stayed in San
(17:23):
Cristobal de las Casas, and Ideliberately chose a B&B, in
essence, but a small boutiquehotel that I knew, the Lacan Don
Maya would stay at occasionally.
And sure enough, on day three,one of the two of the Lacan Don
Maya would stay at occasionally.
And sure enough, on day three,one of the two of the Lacan Don
Maya.
I was having supper with themin a very what do you call it?
A family style long bench tableand I mentioned my interest in
(17:46):
going to their village and hesaid oh sure, just tell them, I
sent you.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Oh my gosh, it's all like so amazing.
There's so much of your story Imean, there's a lot of
challenge, right, and there's alot of struggle and things
happen but so much of your storyjust feels to me like the stars
aligned at times for you tolive the life that you were
meant to live.
Now I have been reading yourbook Highway to the Sky An
(18:13):
Aviator's Journey, which wasreleased in September 2024.
And, like I said, there's waytoo much for me to mention.
So many things have happenedand it's really fantastic,
fantastically interesting storyof your life.
But I'm just going to drop apin and talk about your
childhood for a minute.
We'll go back to like yourgrandfather, your grandmother
(18:35):
and some of the experiences youhad, because in a lot of ways
when I was reading it it feltlike you almost seem born to do
all of these incredible things.
Would you agree with that?
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
I don't know.
I do know that my grandfatherencouraged me to do outdoorsy
type things.
We did.
My parents took us camping aswell, but my grandparents would
take us tenting and it was alittle bit more rustic, right,
and they would take us me.
Actually we did epic tripsacross North America, to the
(19:14):
East Coast in northern UnitedStates and we did tenting, and
what they wanted to do was theywere retired.
He was retired from the postoffice and had taken up the
avocation of genealogy, so theywould travel around doing
research on specific families,would travel around doing
(19:34):
research on specific families.
So and they combined it with,you know, teaching me various
things history, geography, youknow the things you do with
little kids, education books.
And when my sister came alongseven years later, nearly eight
years later, it was even morepolarized.
(19:56):
She clearly wanted to spendtime with grandmother inside
cooking and baking, and I didn'treally want to do that at all.
I was always out with mygrandfather and it's hard to say
what comes first, but as achild I also watched reruns of
Sky King and Sea Hunt and it'skind of ironic really that.
I mean, was I drawn to thembecause I liked those things, or
(20:18):
did I become a scuba diver anda pilot because I watched Sky
King and Sea Hunt.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
I mean those are all Hard to say, right?
Yeah, hard to say.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Exactly, you know, it's certainly.
Obviously I was influenced, I'msure, by the media.
Sky King is about a man namedSkyler King who flies a twin
engine airplane in Arizona and Irecently watched one of them on
YouTube and it's cute, I mean,it's kind of hokey.
It was from the 1950s, 1960s,black and white, obviously, and
(20:51):
it was really exciting.
I mean, as a child it wasincredibly exciting and for the
time period obviously too.
But he had a niece, penny, whoalso flew with him, but perhaps
the role wasn't perhaps asempowering as it could be.
She would take control if hewas incapacitated or if he asked
(21:13):
her to take control because heneeded to do something during
the flight.
Um, like in the episode Iwatched, they were throwing big
boulders out of the plane onto aboat down below.
Now I really think that wouldhave hit the wing, since it was
a low wing aircraft.
But anyway, that's what thethat's what the plot was
boulders out the window, hey, um, but, and sea hunt is um, lloyd
(21:40):
bridges, who's the dad of jeffbridges and beau bridges, and
again, you know very oldtechnology, scuba diving.
But it was fabulously excitingas a child I mean, all the
challenges he had and so, funnything, I grew up to do both
those things.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
It's remarkable really, and, as I mentioned
along the way, there were a lotof other things, and the thing
that really brought us togetherand introduced me to you and
your book is the fact that youare a survivor of domestic
violence.
You've been on this amazingjourney of your life and there
have been these challenges.
In the book, you wrote aboutthe anger and control by your
(22:22):
husband ex-husband, includinghow alcohol addiction played a
role in the relationship, aswell as his violent physical
abuse after your separation.
Will you tell us what happenedto you and how you managed to
break away from his power andcontrol tactics and leave this
relationship?
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Yes, I always had a really good sense of self-worth,
which is very important.
I knew that I didn't want to bebullied, but I also knew that
he had no right to bully me andinitially I suppose I let him do
it a little bit.
You know, you think you know.
Maybe he's had a bad day.
He's just crabby and miserableand I was in love with him.
(23:02):
He was my husband, so I wantedto give him the benefit of the
doubt, but I would say, you know, just because you've had a bad
day, this is not my fault, let'stalk about it.
And I don't like the way you'retreating me, but that didn't
(23:24):
seem to work.
That didn't change his behaviortoward me and I certainly have
never liked being bossed aroundand who does right.
But I think it was when Ireally got to know his parents
who, of course, for the firstfew times that we met and you
know, of course, at the weddingand then afterwards for the
first year, maybe they put ontheir best face and she was very
nice.
His mother, yeah, his mom, yes,my mother-in-law was just
(23:48):
really a shell of what I imagineshe had been or what she could
have been or and have been, buthe was a real bully and he would
boss her around and demandthings and you know it was his
house and he would buy whateverhe wanted.
He had an airplane, he would goflying.
He would fly up, uh, up to thearctic.
I mean again, he was afascinating person but there
(24:11):
wasn't enough money for for nies, there wasn't enough money to
buy the things she wanted, andthat type of deprivation wasn't
something my husband even tried.
I had a job, we had two cars.
He never discouraged me frommeeting friends, going out Well,
(24:32):
reasonably, obviously, butgoing out with friends taking
night courses.
We had a joint bank account butwe had separate bank accounts.
So he was a very reasonableperson that way.
So he was a little bitdifferent than some people who
are sort of the ultimate inpower and control and they
restrict the movement of theirspouse to the point where she no
(24:55):
longer has any autonomy, nofriends, no ability to go out,
and her life is just him, him,him.
That wasn't the case with me,but it was when I realized that
he, my husband, was emulatingthe learned behaviors that he'd
seen his father act out towardshis mother.
(25:17):
So my mother, my father-in-lawand my mother-in-law, and I
realized that Paul was doingthose and it would probably
escalate.
And although it hadn't impactedour three-year, I didn't
believe it to have impacted ourthree-year-old son.
At that point I knew it wouldand I thought I don't want to
live this way and I don't wantmy son to internalize those
(25:38):
behaviors.
And at that point I knew I hadto leave, although I had not yet
decided.
Sort of when, about a yearbefore I left him, we did move,
we relocated, he got a new job,still with the government, but a
new job in a different city,and I thought then that I should
not be moving.
(25:58):
But I decided that perhaps Iwas being unfair in the sense of
he would now have a new job.
It was an increase, it was apromotion.
He would have a new job, newfriends, new area.
Maybe things would be different, and they were initially.
But then he kind of quicklyslipped back into you know, too
much drinking and verballyabusive and a couple backhands.
(26:23):
One backhand is too many.
But again, I think most of us,if we love our partner, are
willing to or are so hopefulthat that's a one off and it'll
never happen again.
And I think we tend to givepeople the benefit of the doubt,
and that's a good thing.
But at what point do we stop?
At what point is hitting toomuch?
(26:44):
One hit is too much.
But it's a little bit moredifficult with verbal abuse and
belittling Although again, hewas mostly just a nasty,
miserable drunk who said nastythings.
But that's not pleasant to livewith either and I consider that
abuse.
Anybody that talks over theirI'm going to say wife in this
case but talks over theirpartner, or talks in a group of
(27:06):
people, keeps interrupting,talks over them, belittles them,
says disparaging things to themand about them all of that is
abuse says disparaging things tothem and about them.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
All of that is abuse, absolutely, and I'm very sorry
you endured all of that, andthen you did decide, though,
eventually, that you were goingto leave the marriage.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
I did and um, only, I think only people who study
abuse or have been in abusewould understand how important
this is.
Is this next what the actualimpetus was?
Because when I wrote about itat first, and even when I had a
developmental editor, she saidso what's the big problem with
that?
So he made a phone call but forsomeone who was really feeling
(27:48):
under the thumb of power andcontrol, I had it.
So what Paul had done was hehad, because we, because we had,
or I had, changed flightschools.
I got licensed at the secondflight school but I was still
really in tune with myinstructors at the first flight
school and I couldn't wait totell them that I passed my
private pilot flight test.
(28:08):
I was so excited I couldn'twait.
But, um, on the first day backof work I was busy until I don't
know 11 o'clock noon-ish.
Whenever I really had time as asupervisor.
I had to wait until I couldmake a phone call and by the
time I did, the chief flyinginstructor said oh,
congratulations, so happy foryou and Paul.
(28:30):
Even before I'd left the home atmorning I was in the shower.
He called them to tell them Ihad passed my flight test and I
thought that is it.
So again, that may not seemlike abuse, but it is.
It's a very specific controlthat you're not telling them
your news.
I'm going to tell yourinstructors your news because
(28:53):
you belong to me when I can tellthem, and I thought that's it.
So during that day at work Iwas so angry I guess I should
have maybe called the flightschool earlier, but I'd
certainly made time now to findan apartment to live in, and
apartments were easy to findthere where I was in a bigger
(29:13):
city, so I didn't leave rightaway.
It took three weeks for thedepartment to be ready, but I
went home and told him that Iwas leaving.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
That's remarkable.
It takes a remarkable amount ofcourage and planning.
You had already been thinkingabout doing this.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
I've had.
That's right, I had.
But it's like writing.
I mean, you don't just think,oh, I think I'm going to write a
book, and then you sit down andwrite 344 pages.
It just doesn't happen that way.
You know, I've been thinkingabout it, Some of the stories
I'd been mulling over in my mindfor years not stories, but the,
the events you know andthinking about it, and and I I
(29:52):
won't say it was cathartic,because I never blamed anybody,
with one exception of, that is,of the people with whom I worked
, because they too were part ofthe environment.
They were products of theenvironment, Just like my
husband.
My ex-husband was raised tobelieve that's the way you
treated women, right, that'swhat he saw.
(30:14):
He saw it at the particularchurch they went to.
Women were second class, Womensat separately.
Women were told what to do.
His mother was told what to doat home.
That's how women were treated.
So it wasn't that surprisingthat so many people were shocked
that I was flying an airplane.
The guys I worked with they'dnever seen a female pilot before
(30:37):
either, so it was very new.
And most of the in theirexperience, the women they knew,
whether personally orobservationally, the women they
dated women.
They married a woman.
They married.
They were not professionalwomen, they were lovely people,
but they worked in the home orhad jobs.
(31:00):
And by jobs I mean to say theyworked not so much for personal
satisfaction but to bring moneyinto the home, and again, that's
laudable.
But it is different to have acareer rather than just I'm
going to go get a job at thelocal grocery store to bring in
more money.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
It's a very different , very different perception of
yeah, and I can see that nowflying and maybe even scuba
diving are very male dominatedplaces to have a hobby or even
focus your career places to havea hobby or even focus your
(31:38):
career and I would think thosecould also have been abusive
environments or, at a minimum,very sexist places for you.
What was that like and how didyou manage to thrive in those
environments?
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Well, you're certainly right, they're both
very male dominated.
There are some female scubadive instructors and scuba dive
masters, but again, it's verymale dominated.
I didn't have any issues therewith, there were no problems
whatsoever.
I was very well respected andintegrated beautifully and I
(32:08):
really enjoyed the guys who weresuper helpful and taught me how
to speak Spanish, and with anexcellent accent.
So I'm forever grateful to them.
Not so much in aviation.
Initially, when I was takingflight lessons, I was welcomed,
certainly by the schools and bythe instructors, because the
(32:31):
aviation is a fairly low profitmargin, so they try to welcome
students.
It was only when I, as mygrandfather put but immediately
apologized, as my grandfathersaid, it was only when I started
taking jobs from men that therewas a bit of pushback, not from
(32:53):
everybody.
And there was a bit of pushbacknot from everybody.
I had support groups in thesense of allies at every company
that I worked with or worked atthe guys.
Most of the guys were great.
Some were ambivalent.
Mostly I won them over, butthere were a couple in both in
two different places, that werejust did not think that women
(33:16):
had a place in aviation as apilot at any rate.
So that was difficult.
How did I succeed?
I just kept getting moreratings and doing flight tests
and getting you know.
You know I got to the top ofthe instructor platform, or
whatever you want to call it.
So you start as a class fourand then you go to class three,
(33:36):
class two, class one, so as aclass one instructor, there
weren't and aren't that many, soyou're certainly respected that
way.
I had about 6,000 hours.
I had taken the same flighttests and exams that the guys
did.
So after a while they, you know, they sort of have to believe
that you're qualified.
But I guess I believed inmyself.
(33:58):
I just did my job.
That's really it, you know.
And I thought you know, youknow they'll get used to it.
Even the chief pilot said, oh,don't worry about them, that you
know they'll get over it,they'll get used to it.
And I think that you know, astime went on and I flew with,
you know, a variety of captainsand first officers that people
did get more comfortable was theonly female.
(34:29):
So it wasn't like there wasanother woman that came on board
that we would have.
I would have another femaleally.
It was always me and all theseguys.
There were other femalecommercial pilots, obviously,
but we were so far apart andnone of them were at the same
airport that I was and they werehundreds of miles away.
So occasionally I did hear themon the radio.
(34:49):
Occasionally we ran into eachother on the ramp.
But you know, it's hard.
It certainly in the 80s without, and 90s without internet and
Zoom, it was hard to form afriendship really with someone
that lived 800 miles or so fromyou.
So it was a pretty lonely,lonely occupation.
But I kept myself busy.
I worked, I taught part-time atthe local flying school, I
(35:15):
attended university viacorrespondence, and then I had
our son and we shared jointcustody.
We shared joint custody formost of his well, all of his,
all of his young life.
So so it was busy.
I just, I just did my job andkept on.
It didn't feel like I was doinganything special.
That was maybe the funniestthing.
(35:36):
It was just like you know what?
I'm?
Just here, I'm doing my job.
What is the problem, right?
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Right, right, no problem.
I say no problem.
What made you decide to writeyour memoir about these
experiences?
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Well, when I realized that some of those obviously
not the same exact experiences,but that that attitude that
women didn't belong in aviation,and there was still pushbacks
from other pilots male pilots,from the industry in some cases,
and from passengers who werereluctant to believe that women
(36:16):
were capable of flying airplanesand I was absolutely astonished
because I actually it happenedin 2014.
And I saw an article.
My husband drew it to myattention.
It was in Canada and andWestJet is one of our major
carriers in Western Canada andone of the pilots a female.
The captain received this noteon WestJet you know the little
(36:38):
napkins that they have and Iparaphrased that.
It said something like DearCaptain, westjet, women have no
place in a cockpit.
We are short mothers and wives.
The next time WestJet has afair lady at the helm, please
let me know so I can takeanother flight.
And to say that that wasastonishing was an
(37:04):
understatement.
I was galvanized.
I simply had absolutely no ideathat that attitude still
prevailed.
I was focusing now on doing myresearch with the Maya and to
Belize, guatemala and Mexico.
It was often better, sincethere were very few was only
(37:26):
only one non-stop flight fromToronto to Cancun, whereas it
was easier for me to take theAmerican hub system.
You know, atlanta, houston,miami and I'd always see female
pilots walking through the theterminals and I was so excited
and I was so happy for them.
Yeah, maybe a little jealoustoo, but I was so happy for them
and I thought there's a lotmore female pilots.
This is great, you know.
Obviously the attitude has sohappy for them.
(37:46):
Yeah, I'd be a little jealoustoo, but I was so happy for them
and I thought there's a lotmore female pilots.
This is great, you know.
Obviously the attitude ischanging.
There they are, they're walkingwith the captain or with the
other, the flight crew.
This is great.
What I didn't realize until Istarted doing research and
started reaching out to twomajor support groups for female
(38:08):
pilots Women in AviationInternational and the 99's
International Organization ofWomen Pilots I didn't realize
that, yes, there are a lot morefemale pilots who are flying
commercially.
So I was right, but I was wrongin the sense of percentage-wise.
It's still at about 5%.
That is, only about 5% ofcommercial pilots are female and
(38:32):
the number is slightly morethan it was in the 80s and 90s,
but by half a percent.
So at that point I thought, wow, this is amazing.
I'm going to write my story andtalk about the things that
happened to me so that I cantalk about these things, that I
have a book that people can readabout and, like you, maria, we
(38:55):
can sit here and we can talkabout these issues that are
still ongoing and, of course,with all the furor now that's
going on after the crash inToronto last week and the
alleged but apparently incorrectassumption that the flight crew
were not qualified, but I guessthere's been a lot of pushback,
(39:15):
a lot of negative reaction towomen who are flying now for the
major airlines, so that'sreally unfortunate.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Yeah, it is very unfortunate, to say the least,
and typically when there is awoman in the cockpit, the
fingers start pointing to her.
We've seen that in the past fewweeks here, also in the United
States, so that's not lost on meor anyone else that there's a
lot of sexism that still exists,and this is just one place
where it seems to be veryprevalent.
(39:48):
So before I let you go, lola,I'm curious what's next for you.
Do you have another adventurethat you're planning?
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Well, maybe not so much an adventure, but I'm going
to Denver next month for theWomen in Aviation International
Convention and I'm going to bethere with a group called the
Literary Aviatrix, and I'll bethere with 34 other female
authors Most of us are alsopilots or we're writing about
(40:17):
women in aviation and I'mworking on my next book, which
is sort of what happened to Lolaafter aviation, which is moving
to Mexico and my time livingwith the three different Maya
groups.
So that's what's next up.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Well, that's a lot Okay, so I can't wait for the
next book.
I can't wait to talk to youagain sometime in the future.
Tell us your website so peoplecan learn more.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Well, it's lolareadallencom and you can
reach out to me directly throughthe website or just directly at
lolareidallencom and the bookis available widely from Simon
Schuster.
You can order from thepublisher, you could order from
amazoncom Back on Amazon's Top100 again.
(41:05):
I was so excited, Outstanding,it was there a couple weeks ago.
Yeah, it was there a coupleweeks ago Top 100 in Aviation
and Nautical Biography and it'sback up again today.
So I was really pretty excitedabout that.
So you can get it from Amazon.
I actually had an email theother day from a reader in
Finland.
A guy who'd heard me on anotherpodcast bought the book and
(41:27):
couldn't wait to tell me howmuch he enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Outstanding Lola, thank you so much for talking
with me today.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Well, thank you, I've had a great time.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
Genesis Women's Shelter and Support exists to
give women in abusive situationsa way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
(41:55):
domestic violence.
You can learn more atgenesisshelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
Genesis Women's Shelter, and onX at Genesis Shelter.
The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, seven
days a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.
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