April 21, 2025 • 28 mins
When Lynn Stroud was 20 years old, her boyfriend deliberately violated their agreed-upon method of contraception following a birth control failure. His casual dismissal – claiming he "forgot" and was "drunk" – masked a calculated attempt to trap her through pregnancy. What followed was a harrowing journey through reproductive coercion, a form of intimate partner violence that remains largely invisible despite affecting a quarter of domestic violence survivors.
Lynn's powerful testimony takes us through the red flags she missed, the isolation she felt when facing an unwanted pregnancy while her partner pressured her toward marriage, and the trauma of seeking care without support. Her boyfriend's refusal to help – financially, emotionally, or logistically – underscores the complex dynamics of reproductive coercion. This wasn't merely about pregnancy; it was about control, power, and the systematic dismantling of her autonomy. The relationship later escalated into stalking, intimidation, and further abuse that continued for years.
Today, Lynn channels her painful experiences into education and advocacy. She helps survivors recognize the warning signs of reproductive coercion: pressure and guilt around pregnancy decisions, unreasonable excuses to avoid contraception, and threats related to reproductive choices. While legal protections remain woefully inadequate – only four U.S. states have specific laws addressing even one form of reproductive coercion (stealthing) – Lynn's advocacy points toward a future where survivors have both voice and recourse. Her message resonates powerfully in our current climate, where reproductive rights face significant challenges and the conversation around consent continues to evolve. By sharing her story, Lynn offers both validation for survivors and a blueprint for change in how we understand, discuss, and address this hidden form of abuse.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
My guest today is Lynn Stroud, a survivor leader
with lived experience ofreproductive coercion, domestic
abuse and sexual assault.
She joins us to tell her storywith the intention of educating
listeners and empoweringsurvivors.
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis, the podcast.
Lynn Stroud has enduredmultiple forms of gender-based
(00:25):
violence and today uses hervoice to cultivate both a
trauma-informed mindset andincreased legal remedies for
victims.
In doing so, she advocates forlistening without judgment,
validating survivors'experiences and recognizing the
resilience that often emergesfrom adversity.
That often emerges fromadversity.
Her insights paint a picture oftransformational potential,
(00:47):
where institutions andcommunities can become healing
spaces rather than inadvertentlyperpetuating harm.
The following episode discussessexual violence.
Lynn, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's good to be with you.
I've learned a lot about yourstory over the past couple of
months and it contains manyelements and instances of abuse,
and I'm really grateful thatyou are here to talk with us
(01:09):
about what happened to you, aswell as the ways you are working
as a leader in theanti-violence movement.
I'd like to focus onreproductive coercion, because
that's an area that's reallyimportant to you.
Can you help us define thatterm and identify the common
types of reproductive coercion?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Sure.
So reproductive coercion is aform of power and control,
because one partner takes awayreproductive health decisions
and options from the other.
And I can provide some examplesof that.
Reprodu reproductive coercioncould include refusing to use a
condom or other type of birthcontrol.
Breaking or removing a condomduring intercourse, which is
(01:51):
also known as stealthing.
Forcing a partner to get anabortion or preventing them from
getting an abortion.
Threatening to tell theirfamily or their friends or
expose them somehow to lawenforcement about seeking an
abortion.
Withholding finances needing topurchase birth control, which
is also a form of financialabuse.
(02:12):
Also threatening their partneror becoming violent if they
don't follow their wishes toeither end or continue a
pregnancy.
And another example is notfollowing through with an agreed
type of birth control.
So, for example, if the two ofyou have agreed that you're
going to use the pullout methodand at the last moment, one
(02:35):
partner decides that they'regoing to take it upon themselves
to not follow through with thatagreement, that is also
reproductive coercion.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Yeah, I mean it's a lot to unpack, right, because we
don't hear this topic veryoften, and it also has a lot to
do with consent.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
It really does.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
So partners can consent in advance and then just
not follow through with it?
And can you also give us somelike examples or signs of how
this plays out or what peopleshould look for if they're in a
relationship?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
So reproductive coercion.
Some of the red flags that youmight notice in a relationship
would be various types ofpressure and guilt and shame
coming from the perpetrator.
There could be instances wherethe one partner is trying to
pressure the other one intohaving children.
(03:26):
They may also use culturalpressure, religious pressure.
They also might threaten toleave the relationship if the
abused partner doesn't followthrough with what they want.
Another sign and this happenedto me personally was if, from
the beginning, the male in therelationship makes numerous
(03:48):
excuses for not using a condomand they're unreasonable excuses
, like I just don't like the waythey feel or they affect my
performance, or things like that.
Those are definite red flags.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Interesting, so a lot of the information that we're
talking about.
In addition to those exampleswe pulled from the hotlineorg,
which is the National DomesticViolence Hotline website, they
do have information, includingstatistics, that state the
hotline and partners in 2011found that 25% of people who
contacted the hotline reportedexperiencing reproductive
(04:23):
coercion.
Contacted the hotline reportedexperiencing reproductive
coercion.
Preliminary data from 2021shows that 1,526 individuals who
contacted the hotline alsoreported reproductive coercion,
showing that this is an issuemany people continue to face, so
it can affect anyone.
The hotline indicates thatspecific communities may face
added barriers to receiving careand support, and I can only
(04:46):
imagine that those are women ofcolor, people for whom English
is not their first language ifthey're living in the United
States, and other communitiesthat are impoverished,
underprivileged or otherwiseoppressed.
Now you have been very openabout your experiences of abuse,
in particular, being subjectedto reproductive coercion.
(05:09):
Lynn, what happened to you?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
So my story begins over 20 years ago and I think at
that time, if you would haveeven mentioned the term
reproductive coercion or evencoercive control, I don't think
anyone would have understoodquite what you were talking
about, right?
So I was in my early 20s, infact, when I met the man that I
(05:32):
was dating.
I was 20.
And he was a lot older than me.
He was 27.
And when I first met him, mythinking was that, you know, I
had only dated men my own age upuntil that point, and I thought
that having a partner who wasolder would mean that I would be
bringing someone in my life whowas more mature and steady in
(05:54):
their career and could treat mebetter.
And I noticed very quickly thatthere were a lot of red flags
surrounding this person.
They were extremely jealous,controlling.
Lot of red flags surroundingthis person.
They were extremely jealous,controlling.
They would demand things fromme and when I didn't want to do
those things, they would eithershame me for not wanting to do
(06:14):
them or, if I agreed to do themand I enjoyed them, then they
would insult me, use terms likeyou're a slut or you're a whore,
things like that.
A few months into therelationship.
I had actually been on birthcontrol for a couple of years.
I started the pill when I was18.
And I had gone to my annualcheckup with my gyno and she
(06:37):
said to me hey, there's this newthing on the market.
It's really great for a youngwoman on the go, so you don't
have to remember to take thepill every day.
It's this patch, this birthcontrol patch, and you can stick
it on and you can keep it onfor a week and it stays on in
the shower.
You don't have to worry aboutit.
It's super convenient.
And so I said, okay, thatsounds really great and I
(06:59):
started taking the patch.
Apparently, no one had testedthis patch out in ocean water,
because I went on vacation inAruba and the patch immediately
came off the minute that I hitthe water.
Oh, wow.
So now I had.
Plus, I was in another country,so I had no way of getting a
backup method.
So when I returned from vacation, I was speaking to my much
(07:22):
older boyfriend at the time andI said to him the patch came off
in the water and you and I needto be incredibly careful right
now.
So we need to come up with aplan of what we're going to do.
And we agreed and decided thatwe would go forward with having
sex but that he would pull out,and I trusted that he would do
(07:42):
it.
So later that evening we'rehaving sex and the time comes.
In fact, I'm actually Ireminded him several times
during the act hey, don't forget, you need to pull out.
And this is a 20-year-old youngwoman reminding a 27-year-old
man, and he's getting irritatedwith me every time I say it.
(08:04):
And finally we hit the end andhe finishes and he does not pull
out.
And he was on top of me.
I mean, it happened so fast Idon't think there would have
been time for me to push him off, but it would have been
physically impossible for me topush him off or fight him off.
So after that happened, Iimmediately turned to him and
went into a state of shock andsaid what the hell did you just
(08:28):
do?
And he just, very blunt andwith zero emotion, just said I'm
sorry, I forgot, I was drunk.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Wow yeah.
And so at that point in time Ididn't feel comfortable enough
to tell my parents that I wasconcerned.
I was too embarrassed andashamed to go to them for help.
I do believe that at that timethis was in the early 2000s.
So I believe that Plan B wasavailable, but I believe it was
(09:03):
only available with aprescription.
I don't think Plan B becameavailable over the counter until
several years later, like maybe2006 or something like that.
So I would have been tooterrified to call my
gynecologist.
I had the same gynecologist asmy mother, so I would have been
terrified at that age that shewould have said something in
passing and my mother would havefound out, despite HIPAA laws.
(09:26):
And so he keeps saying don'tworry, it was only once, I'm
sure you're fine.
A couple of weeks later, myperiod was late.
I took a pregnancy test.
It came back positive and Icalled him up on the phone.
He was out of state trainingfor a job and I said I'm
pregnant, what are we going todo?
And just very flippant, andagain with zero emotion, just
(09:51):
said oh okay, well, let's justget married.
And I thought we've only beendating for four or five months
you don't know me well enoughand his response was well, I
know enough, let's just getmarried, let's just have the
baby.
And by the time I had figuredout that I was pregnant, I was
21.
I was in the middle of college.
I hadn't gotten my bachelor'sdegree yet.
(10:13):
I was a singer at the time.
I was auditioning to prepare tohave this big singing audition
so that I could get into thismusic program.
I didn't have a side job.
I think I was bartending at thetime.
I didn't have my own healthinsurance.
I mean, I was basically in noway emotionally ready at a point
(10:34):
in my life where I wanted tobecome a mother.
And even more so, I had realconcerns about this man after
everything that had gone downand about how insensitive he was
being to the situation and thathe had never offered an apology
or any kind of support, and soI felt pretty much alone.
He kept trying to pressure meinto following through with the
(10:57):
pregnancy and marrying him andhaving the child.
I knew that I was in no wayready.
I ended up going to a PlannedParenthood.
I resided in Northern NewJersey at the time, so, luckily
for me, it was not difficultthen to get some assistance.
They ended up giving me anotherpregnancy test to confirm and
(11:20):
gave me two options.
They told me that I could takethe abortion pill, or they told
me that I could have a DNC.
But they told me that if I tookthe abortion pill, that the
abortion could end up not beingentirely complete.
And I didn't want to take thechance.
I didn't want to elongate, Ididn't want to push this out any
further and so I went ahead andscheduled the DNC.
(11:42):
When I turned and told myboyfriend that this was my
decision, that I wanted him togo with me, and actually at that
time in New Jersey, in order tohave that procedure, you'd have
to be under general anesthesia,so you had to have someone
drive you to the clinic and staythere with you to be there to
drive you home.
My boyfriend refused.
He refused to come with me tothe appointment, he refused to
(12:05):
have anything to do with it andhe refused to pay for it.
Wow, and they only acceptedcash, and it was about $400.
So I gathered up all the moneythat I had, I called a friend
and that friend took me to theclinic, and the only thing that
did surprise me at the time wasthere were two protesters out
(12:28):
front.
I did not expect to see that, Ithink in Northern New Jersey I
just assumed you know it's amore liberal state, you know I'm
not going to have to deal withanything like that.
But there were two protestersout front screaming at women as
they were entering the clinic.
They were screaming things likeit's not too late to change
your mind, you know, just makingthem feel absolutely horrible.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Because you didn't feel horrible already.
I mean, it was already such adifficult situation for you.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Right as if.
As if it's not, you know,people treat it like it's such
an easy decision.
And even though I was veryconcrete, that I knew that this
was the right decision for me atthat time in my life.
In no way is it emotionally orpsychologically easy, in any
means.
It's not something simple to gothrough and it was basically
(13:14):
put me through an unnecessarysurgery, and so I did go through
with the procedure and afterthat my relationship with that
man took a turn from maybeseeing some red flags to
outright abusive, because he wasso outraged that I had gone
(13:34):
through with the abortion andthat I didn't.
Basically that he didn't get totrap me and I stayed with him
for another, I'd say four years.
After that we broke up manytimes because I kept trying to
get away from him and every timeI did he would stalk me, he
would intimidate me, he wouldintimidate my friends.
One time he even broke into myhouse in the middle of the night
(13:55):
and ended up in my bedroomstanding over me, which was
terrifying.
But I realized after severalyears, after some of the
comments that he was making andsome of the behaviors that I was
seeing from him, that gettingme pregnant was absolutely never
an accident.
It was intentional.
He wanted me pregnant, hewanted me trapped.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
That's an incredible story and first and foremost,
thank you for sharing that withus.
And also, I mean I just want toexpress I'm really sorry you
had to endure all of that.
It's very painful.
I can hear it just in theretelling that you know, no, it
wasn't an easy decision for youto make by any means to go
through with that type ofprocedure and you know it's
(14:39):
clearly had an effect on you andjust the retelling of the story
.
It's clearly had an effect onyou and just the retelling of
the story.
It's very emotional and Iappreciate you, you know,
wanting to just go over thedetails of that again so that
our listeners can learn fromyour story and your experience
of not just reproductivecoercion.
It sounds like a whole lot ofother intimate partner violence
(15:02):
coercion.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
it sounds like a whole lot of other intimate
partner violence, thank you.
Now I would hope that insharing all of the subtle signs
and also the things that aremore obvious and may now
currently fall under thedefinition of reproductive
coercion, my goal is to raiseawareness for something that I
(15:25):
don't think many people evenknow exists.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Yeah, I would have to agree with that.
It's not really a popular topic, right?
We don't hear it much in themedia, probably not at all,
unless you go looking for it.
You may not know anyinformation about it, but in
your case, was there ever theopportunity to expose his
(15:49):
actions and his abuse, and werethere any consequences or
justice in your case?
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Unfortunately.
No, I never was able to get anykind of legal justice in those
terms.
I did communicate with someonein New Jersey.
I want to say it was about ayear ago and it was really only
then that I was able to take somuch of the blame off of myself
(16:17):
and really put it on him,Because for all those years and
really put it on him, Becausefor all those years and we're
talking over 20 years of my lifeI put so much of the blame on
myself and I kept saying that Ilet that happen to me, not that
(16:38):
he did that to me, and so ittook a long time for me to come
to terms with it.
And in the last year to twoyears I've been able to
completely redirect my thinkingand when I did speak to someone
in New Jersey about thepotential of pursuing it, Do you
mean legally?
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Yes, legally.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
They basically said that it would not be a very
strong case because at thispoint in time I don't even know
if there would be any physicalevidence of anything that went
on.
I wouldn't know how longabortion clinics would keep
medical records, but I wouldseriously doubt that it would be
20 years or over 20 years, andeven then it would end up being
(17:16):
my word against his.
And in saying all this, this isnot to discourage anyone.
So I don't want anyone tolisten to what I'm saying and
become discouraged and feel likethey shouldn't pursue justice.
I think it's absolutely worth aphone call.
It's worth looking intodifferent laws and statutes to
see what remedies could beavailable to you In my situation
(17:38):
.
This what I'm doing right now,this is my form of justice.
This what I'm doing right now.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
this is my form of justice speaking out about it,
owning the truth sharing thenarrative so that no other woman
ever has to go through what Iwent through.
Well, I mean, it's an amazingthing that you are doing by
sharing the story, because it issuch a painful, difficult
situation, but, as we learnedfrom the statistics that we
(18:04):
mentioned earlier, it's reallynot uncommon, and that's what is
extremely disturbing about thesituation.
What about systemic failures?
I mean, at the time of yourcase, there was nothing really
to pursue or you weren't in themindset of looking for a way to
pursue justice for it.
But today this is a differentenvironment.
(18:26):
In the past decade at least,it's become very different,
especially since the Me Toomovement.
People are talking about sexualharassment and sexual abuse much
more openly in social media andin the media, and most recently
, very recently, just within thepast few years, there has been
(18:47):
some movement in the UnitedStates and in the UK to
criminalize reproductivecoercion.
For example, the UK hasrecently convicted and sentenced
a few offenders of stealthing,and just this week here in the
States, in Minnesota, a bill wasbrought to the state Senate
that would allow victims tobring a civil suit against the
(19:08):
accused in cases of stealthing.
So while the legislation that'sin development in the United
States does not go as far ascriminalizing the behavior, it
does expand the conversationaround consent.
I'd love to hear your thoughtsabout the current legislation
here and abroad and what can bedone to better support victims
of stealthing.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
So here in the US, as of January of this year, there
are four states that currentlyhave laws addressing stealthing
specifically, and that would beCalifornia, maine, vermont and
Washington.
So the unfortunate part, as youmentioned, is that it's not
addressed as a crime in any ofthose states.
(19:50):
You would need to bring a civilsuit.
There is an upside to that inthat when you have something
brought to court as a crime, youwould need to hit that burden
of proof, need to hit thatburden of proof, whereas in a
civil case you might be able tohit that a lot easier.
So that is one upside, butunfortunately, if you're dealing
with something that's only acivil issue, the punishment for
(20:15):
the crime may be a lot less orit may be something that you're
not really looking for.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Yeah.
So I guess, for example, itcould be paying punitive damages
to the victim if they're foundliable for the accusations
against you, but it does notthen prevent you from committing
those types of offenses again.
It does nothing to address thebehavior in a concrete and clear
(20:43):
way to prevent other crimes,which I can only assume that
this is a pattern for anindividual who has done this
maybe before may do it again ormay do something worse.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Absolutely.
I know that several years intothe relationship with that same
man I found out that he did getanother woman pregnant before me
, that he had been in arelationship with another woman
and that she had gotten pregnant.
I don't know the details of how, but hearing something like
that goes to your point that itabsolutely is a pattern of
(21:17):
behavior and that goes rightinto coercive control.
And I think what some of thesestates, at least here in the US,
could do is they could amendtheir civil and criminal
statutes to make not onlystealthing but reproductive
coercion in general a punishableoffense, because we just don't
(21:39):
have that right now.
I think the only way thatsomeone could pursue it in any
of those states other than thefour that I mentioned would be
trying to argue it from a sexualassault standpoint and hoping
for some kind of criminalpunishment or addressing it in a
state that has a coercivecontrol law.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Which is also very limited because there aren't
that many, but in the UK theyare identifying stealthing now
as a form of rape, and sothey've been able to develop
legislation that criminalizesthe behavior.
And actually there's a you know, kind of well-known case I
think it was in Scotland wherethey put this guy away for 16
(22:21):
years for multiple offenses ofstealthing, which is kind of
remarkable and disturbing aswell stealthing in Australia.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
in several states.
Stealthing is now illegal inNew South Wales, victoria,
queensland, tasmania and SouthAustralia.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
And it's criminalized .
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Okay, that's good.
Those are good examples.
Anybody who's listening can go,you know, just look it up on
the internet to find out what isthe legislation in your state
or in your country, because weare heard around the world.
This podcast has aninternational following, so lots
of people will be impacted bythis type of information.
On this topic, let's turn ourattention to your work with
other survivors.
(23:12):
Tell us about how you supportother survivors and educate
about reproductive coercion.
What are you working on?
Speaker 2 (23:19):
I began my journey by training and volunteering with
a local domestic abuse advocateorganization here in Central
Texas, where I work now.
They are called Hope Allianceand they not only help victims
of domestic abuse but alsosexual assault, and so I think
(23:41):
that began my journey.
I've also been aective, and forthe past year I've done, I want
(24:02):
to say, at least 10, if notmore, podcasts and also some
online interviews where I'veshared my story of reproductive
coercion, and in doing that,some of the feedback that either
the podcast hosts or that I'vegotten myself is that many
victims are getting sort ofthose aha moments.
(24:26):
They're sort of questioning itthemselves, similar to the way
that I did for many, many years.
Is this behavior typical, isthis behavior okay?
And so my hope is that, indoing these various trainings
and hoping to lift up survivorsand bring awareness so that we
(24:48):
can somehow increase theknowledge and also increase the
available punishment that isaround this type of behavior.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
That's quite the undertaking for an individual.
I think that it's veryadmirable for you to take up
this cause and I also think thatit's critically important to
the people that it supports.
Right, Because you're an expert, you're a Survivors are the
experts, and so I think you canbe, you know, lend a really
(25:19):
valuable voice to theconversation and hopefully move
things forward.
I'm curious, as both a survivorand an expert in this lived
experience of reproductivecoercion, if you have a specific
call to action for survivors,advocates, law enforcement or
others for survivors, advocates,law enforcement or others.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
My goal in all of this is to encourage other women
to not only become quiteintrospective of their own
relationships and that,hopefully, that everything that
has gone on, not only in thepast couple of years with Roe v
Wade being dialed back, but alsoin witnessing our government
(26:02):
dial back on many things andwe're seeing a dial back on
women's rights, on LGBTQ rightsI think it's so important for
victims and women specifically,to own their narrative, to share
their story in as many ways asthey see comfortable, and you
can share your story anonymouslyso that you can do it in a way
(26:26):
where you feel safe.
I definitely started out thatway, although I reached a point
in my journey where I felt likeI really wanted to own this as
part of who I am, I don't feelany shame about it anymore.
That's been a very, verydifficult process for me, so I
encourage anyone who also hasthe ear of local law enforcement
(26:49):
or congressional relationshipsor does any type of lobbying or
anything like that does anyadvocacy work.
I sincerely encourage thosepeople to listen to the stories
of survivors people who haveactually lived through this and
try to make a real effort toincrease the laws and to better
(27:13):
narrow the laws so that we havemore protection from things like
this.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
I think that's a great goal.
I think that it's going torequire many people who are
listening to these stories totake the time to get a deeper
understanding of what ishappening in these intimate
partner relationships, wherethere is coercive control and
then thereby reproductivecoercion.
I think you're spot on aboutthat and I really appreciate the
(27:39):
time you spent with us andhearing your story and your
bravery in telling it, and Ithank you for being here.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Thank you so much, Maria.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Genesis Women's Shelter and Support exists to
give women in abusive situationsa way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
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Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
(28:07):
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The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, seven
days a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.
My guest today is Lynn Stroud, a survivor leader
with lived experience ofreproductive coercion, domestic
abuse and sexual assault.
She joins us to tell her storywith the intention of educating
listeners and empoweringsurvivors.
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis, the podcast.
Lynn Stroud has enduredmultiple forms of gender-based
(00:25):
violence and today uses hervoice to cultivate both a
trauma-informed mindset andincreased legal remedies for
victims.
In doing so, she advocates forlistening without judgment,
validating survivors'experiences and recognizing the
resilience that often emergesfrom adversity.
That often emerges fromadversity.
Her insights paint a picture oftransformational potential,
(00:47):
where institutions andcommunities can become healing
spaces rather than inadvertentlyperpetuating harm.
The following episode discussessexual violence.
Lynn, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's good to be with you.
I've learned a lot about yourstory over the past couple of
months and it contains manyelements and instances of abuse,
and I'm really grateful thatyou are here to talk with us
(01:09):
about what happened to you, aswell as the ways you are working
as a leader in theanti-violence movement.
I'd like to focus onreproductive coercion, because
that's an area that's reallyimportant to you.
Can you help us define thatterm and identify the common
types of reproductive coercion?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Sure.
So reproductive coercion is aform of power and control,
because one partner takes awayreproductive health decisions
and options from the other.
And I can provide some examplesof that.
Reprodu reproductive coercioncould include refusing to use a
condom or other type of birthcontrol.
Breaking or removing a condomduring intercourse, which is
(01:51):
also known as stealthing.
Forcing a partner to get anabortion or preventing them from
getting an abortion.
Threatening to tell theirfamily or their friends or
expose them somehow to lawenforcement about seeking an
abortion.
Withholding finances needing topurchase birth control, which
is also a form of financialabuse.
(02:12):
Also threatening their partneror becoming violent if they
don't follow their wishes toeither end or continue a
pregnancy.
And another example is notfollowing through with an agreed
type of birth control.
So, for example, if the two ofyou have agreed that you're
going to use the pullout methodand at the last moment, one
(02:35):
partner decides that they'regoing to take it upon themselves
to not follow through with thatagreement, that is also
reproductive coercion.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Yeah, I mean it's a lot to unpack, right, because we
don't hear this topic veryoften, and it also has a lot to
do with consent.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
It really does.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
So partners can consent in advance and then just
not follow through with it?
And can you also give us somelike examples or signs of how
this plays out or what peopleshould look for if they're in a
relationship?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
So reproductive coercion.
Some of the red flags that youmight notice in a relationship
would be various types ofpressure and guilt and shame
coming from the perpetrator.
There could be instances wherethe one partner is trying to
pressure the other one intohaving children.
(03:26):
They may also use culturalpressure, religious pressure.
They also might threaten toleave the relationship if the
abused partner doesn't followthrough with what they want.
Another sign and this happenedto me personally was if, from
the beginning, the male in therelationship makes numerous
(03:48):
excuses for not using a condomand they're unreasonable excuses
, like I just don't like the waythey feel or they affect my
performance, or things like that.
Those are definite red flags.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Interesting, so a lot of the information that we're
talking about.
In addition to those exampleswe pulled from the hotlineorg,
which is the National DomesticViolence Hotline website, they
do have information, includingstatistics, that state the
hotline and partners in 2011found that 25% of people who
contacted the hotline reportedexperiencing reproductive
(04:23):
coercion.
Contacted the hotline reportedexperiencing reproductive
coercion.
Preliminary data from 2021shows that 1,526 individuals who
contacted the hotline alsoreported reproductive coercion,
showing that this is an issuemany people continue to face, so
it can affect anyone.
The hotline indicates thatspecific communities may face
added barriers to receiving careand support, and I can only
(04:46):
imagine that those are women ofcolor, people for whom English
is not their first language ifthey're living in the United
States, and other communitiesthat are impoverished,
underprivileged or otherwiseoppressed.
Now you have been very openabout your experiences of abuse,
in particular, being subjectedto reproductive coercion.
(05:09):
Lynn, what happened to you?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
So my story begins over 20 years ago and I think at
that time, if you would haveeven mentioned the term
reproductive coercion or evencoercive control, I don't think
anyone would have understoodquite what you were talking
about, right?
So I was in my early 20s, infact, when I met the man that I
(05:32):
was dating.
I was 20.
And he was a lot older than me.
He was 27.
And when I first met him, mythinking was that, you know, I
had only dated men my own age upuntil that point, and I thought
that having a partner who wasolder would mean that I would be
bringing someone in my life whowas more mature and steady in
(05:54):
their career and could treat mebetter.
And I noticed very quickly thatthere were a lot of red flags
surrounding this person.
They were extremely jealous,controlling.
Lot of red flags surroundingthis person.
They were extremely jealous,controlling.
They would demand things fromme and when I didn't want to do
those things, they would eithershame me for not wanting to do
(06:14):
them or, if I agreed to do themand I enjoyed them, then they
would insult me, use terms likeyou're a slut or you're a whore,
things like that.
A few months into therelationship.
I had actually been on birthcontrol for a couple of years.
I started the pill when I was18.
And I had gone to my annualcheckup with my gyno and she
(06:37):
said to me hey, there's this newthing on the market.
It's really great for a youngwoman on the go, so you don't
have to remember to take thepill every day.
It's this patch, this birthcontrol patch, and you can stick
it on and you can keep it onfor a week and it stays on in
the shower.
You don't have to worry aboutit.
It's super convenient.
And so I said, okay, thatsounds really great and I
(06:59):
started taking the patch.
Apparently, no one had testedthis patch out in ocean water,
because I went on vacation inAruba and the patch immediately
came off the minute that I hitthe water.
Oh, wow.
So now I had.
Plus, I was in another country,so I had no way of getting a
backup method.
So when I returned from vacation, I was speaking to my much
(07:22):
older boyfriend at the time andI said to him the patch came off
in the water and you and I needto be incredibly careful right
now.
So we need to come up with aplan of what we're going to do.
And we agreed and decided thatwe would go forward with having
sex but that he would pull out,and I trusted that he would do
(07:42):
it.
So later that evening we'rehaving sex and the time comes.
In fact, I'm actually Ireminded him several times
during the act hey, don't forget, you need to pull out.
And this is a 20-year-old youngwoman reminding a 27-year-old
man, and he's getting irritatedwith me every time I say it.
(08:04):
And finally we hit the end andhe finishes and he does not pull
out.
And he was on top of me.
I mean, it happened so fast Idon't think there would have
been time for me to push him off, but it would have been
physically impossible for me topush him off or fight him off.
So after that happened, Iimmediately turned to him and
went into a state of shock andsaid what the hell did you just
(08:28):
do?
And he just, very blunt andwith zero emotion, just said I'm
sorry, I forgot, I was drunk.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Wow yeah.
And so at that point in time Ididn't feel comfortable enough
to tell my parents that I wasconcerned.
I was too embarrassed andashamed to go to them for help.
I do believe that at that timethis was in the early 2000s.
So I believe that Plan B wasavailable, but I believe it was
(09:03):
only available with aprescription.
I don't think Plan B becameavailable over the counter until
several years later, like maybe2006 or something like that.
So I would have been tooterrified to call my
gynecologist.
I had the same gynecologist asmy mother, so I would have been
terrified at that age that shewould have said something in
passing and my mother would havefound out, despite HIPAA laws.
(09:26):
And so he keeps saying don'tworry, it was only once, I'm
sure you're fine.
A couple of weeks later, myperiod was late.
I took a pregnancy test.
It came back positive and Icalled him up on the phone.
He was out of state trainingfor a job and I said I'm
pregnant, what are we going todo?
And just very flippant, andagain with zero emotion, just
(09:51):
said oh okay, well, let's justget married.
And I thought we've only beendating for four or five months
you don't know me well enoughand his response was well, I
know enough, let's just getmarried, let's just have the
baby.
And by the time I had figuredout that I was pregnant, I was
21.
I was in the middle of college.
I hadn't gotten my bachelor'sdegree yet.
(10:13):
I was a singer at the time.
I was auditioning to prepare tohave this big singing audition
so that I could get into thismusic program.
I didn't have a side job.
I think I was bartending at thetime.
I didn't have my own healthinsurance.
I mean, I was basically in noway emotionally ready at a point
(10:34):
in my life where I wanted tobecome a mother.
And even more so, I had realconcerns about this man after
everything that had gone downand about how insensitive he was
being to the situation and thathe had never offered an apology
or any kind of support, and soI felt pretty much alone.
He kept trying to pressure meinto following through with the
(10:57):
pregnancy and marrying him andhaving the child.
I knew that I was in no wayready.
I ended up going to a PlannedParenthood.
I resided in Northern NewJersey at the time, so, luckily
for me, it was not difficultthen to get some assistance.
They ended up giving me anotherpregnancy test to confirm and
(11:20):
gave me two options.
They told me that I could takethe abortion pill, or they told
me that I could have a DNC.
But they told me that if I tookthe abortion pill, that the
abortion could end up not beingentirely complete.
And I didn't want to take thechance.
I didn't want to elongate, Ididn't want to push this out any
further and so I went ahead andscheduled the DNC.
(11:42):
When I turned and told myboyfriend that this was my
decision, that I wanted him togo with me, and actually at that
time in New Jersey, in order tohave that procedure, you'd have
to be under general anesthesia,so you had to have someone
drive you to the clinic and staythere with you to be there to
drive you home.
My boyfriend refused.
He refused to come with me tothe appointment, he refused to
(12:05):
have anything to do with it andhe refused to pay for it.
Wow, and they only acceptedcash, and it was about $400.
So I gathered up all the moneythat I had, I called a friend
and that friend took me to theclinic, and the only thing that
did surprise me at the time wasthere were two protesters out
(12:28):
front.
I did not expect to see that, Ithink in Northern New Jersey I
just assumed you know it's amore liberal state, you know I'm
not going to have to deal withanything like that.
But there were two protestersout front screaming at women as
they were entering the clinic.
They were screaming things likeit's not too late to change
your mind, you know, just makingthem feel absolutely horrible.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Because you didn't feel horrible already.
I mean, it was already such adifficult situation for you.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Right as if.
As if it's not, you know,people treat it like it's such
an easy decision.
And even though I was veryconcrete, that I knew that this
was the right decision for me atthat time in my life.
In no way is it emotionally orpsychologically easy, in any
means.
It's not something simple to gothrough and it was basically
(13:14):
put me through an unnecessarysurgery, and so I did go through
with the procedure and afterthat my relationship with that
man took a turn from maybeseeing some red flags to
outright abusive, because he wasso outraged that I had gone
(13:34):
through with the abortion andthat I didn't.
Basically that he didn't get totrap me and I stayed with him
for another, I'd say four years.
After that we broke up manytimes because I kept trying to
get away from him and every timeI did he would stalk me, he
would intimidate me, he wouldintimidate my friends.
One time he even broke into myhouse in the middle of the night
(13:55):
and ended up in my bedroomstanding over me, which was
terrifying.
But I realized after severalyears, after some of the
comments that he was making andsome of the behaviors that I was
seeing from him, that gettingme pregnant was absolutely never
an accident.
It was intentional.
He wanted me pregnant, hewanted me trapped.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
That's an incredible story and first and foremost,
thank you for sharing that withus.
And also, I mean I just want toexpress I'm really sorry you
had to endure all of that.
It's very painful.
I can hear it just in theretelling that you know, no, it
wasn't an easy decision for youto make by any means to go
through with that type ofprocedure and you know it's
(14:39):
clearly had an effect on you andjust the retelling of the story
.
It's clearly had an effect onyou and just the retelling of
the story.
It's very emotional and Iappreciate you, you know,
wanting to just go over thedetails of that again so that
our listeners can learn fromyour story and your experience
of not just reproductivecoercion.
It sounds like a whole lot ofother intimate partner violence
(15:02):
coercion.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
it sounds like a whole lot of other intimate
partner violence, thank you.
Now I would hope that insharing all of the subtle signs
and also the things that aremore obvious and may now
currently fall under thedefinition of reproductive
coercion, my goal is to raiseawareness for something that I
(15:25):
don't think many people evenknow exists.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Yeah, I would have to agree with that.
It's not really a popular topic, right?
We don't hear it much in themedia, probably not at all,
unless you go looking for it.
You may not know anyinformation about it, but in
your case, was there ever theopportunity to expose his
(15:49):
actions and his abuse, and werethere any consequences or
justice in your case?
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Unfortunately.
No, I never was able to get anykind of legal justice in those
terms.
I did communicate with someonein New Jersey.
I want to say it was about ayear ago and it was really only
then that I was able to take somuch of the blame off of myself
(16:17):
and really put it on him,Because for all those years and
really put it on him, Becausefor all those years and we're
talking over 20 years of my lifeI put so much of the blame on
myself and I kept saying that Ilet that happen to me, not that
(16:38):
he did that to me, and so ittook a long time for me to come
to terms with it.
And in the last year to twoyears I've been able to
completely redirect my thinkingand when I did speak to someone
in New Jersey about thepotential of pursuing it, Do you
mean legally?
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Yes, legally.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
They basically said that it would not be a very
strong case because at thispoint in time I don't even know
if there would be any physicalevidence of anything that went
on.
I wouldn't know how longabortion clinics would keep
medical records, but I wouldseriously doubt that it would be
20 years or over 20 years, andeven then it would end up being
(17:16):
my word against his.
And in saying all this, this isnot to discourage anyone.
So I don't want anyone tolisten to what I'm saying and
become discouraged and feel likethey shouldn't pursue justice.
I think it's absolutely worth aphone call.
It's worth looking intodifferent laws and statutes to
see what remedies could beavailable to you In my situation
(17:38):
.
This what I'm doing right now,this is my form of justice.
This what I'm doing right now.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
this is my form of justice speaking out about it,
owning the truth sharing thenarrative so that no other woman
ever has to go through what Iwent through.
Well, I mean, it's an amazingthing that you are doing by
sharing the story, because it issuch a painful, difficult
situation, but, as we learnedfrom the statistics that we
(18:04):
mentioned earlier, it's reallynot uncommon, and that's what is
extremely disturbing about thesituation.
What about systemic failures?
I mean, at the time of yourcase, there was nothing really
to pursue or you weren't in themindset of looking for a way to
pursue justice for it.
But today this is a differentenvironment.
(18:26):
In the past decade at least,it's become very different,
especially since the Me Toomovement.
People are talking about sexualharassment and sexual abuse much
more openly in social media andin the media, and most recently
, very recently, just within thepast few years, there has been
(18:47):
some movement in the UnitedStates and in the UK to
criminalize reproductivecoercion.
For example, the UK hasrecently convicted and sentenced
a few offenders of stealthing,and just this week here in the
States, in Minnesota, a bill wasbrought to the state Senate
that would allow victims tobring a civil suit against the
(19:08):
accused in cases of stealthing.
So while the legislation that'sin development in the United
States does not go as far ascriminalizing the behavior, it
does expand the conversationaround consent.
I'd love to hear your thoughtsabout the current legislation
here and abroad and what can bedone to better support victims
of stealthing.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
So here in the US, as of January of this year, there
are four states that currentlyhave laws addressing stealthing
specifically, and that would beCalifornia, maine, vermont and
Washington.
So the unfortunate part, as youmentioned, is that it's not
addressed as a crime in any ofthose states.
(19:50):
You would need to bring a civilsuit.
There is an upside to that inthat when you have something
brought to court as a crime, youwould need to hit that burden
of proof, need to hit thatburden of proof, whereas in a
civil case you might be able tohit that a lot easier.
So that is one upside, butunfortunately, if you're dealing
with something that's only acivil issue, the punishment for
(20:15):
the crime may be a lot less orit may be something that you're
not really looking for.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Yeah.
So I guess, for example, itcould be paying punitive damages
to the victim if they're foundliable for the accusations
against you, but it does notthen prevent you from committing
those types of offenses again.
It does nothing to address thebehavior in a concrete and clear
(20:43):
way to prevent other crimes,which I can only assume that
this is a pattern for anindividual who has done this
maybe before may do it again ormay do something worse.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Absolutely.
I know that several years intothe relationship with that same
man I found out that he did getanother woman pregnant before me
, that he had been in arelationship with another woman
and that she had gotten pregnant.
I don't know the details of how, but hearing something like
that goes to your point that itabsolutely is a pattern of
(21:17):
behavior and that goes rightinto coercive control.
And I think what some of thesestates, at least here in the US,
could do is they could amendtheir civil and criminal
statutes to make not onlystealthing but reproductive
coercion in general a punishableoffense, because we just don't
(21:39):
have that right now.
I think the only way thatsomeone could pursue it in any
of those states other than thefour that I mentioned would be
trying to argue it from a sexualassault standpoint and hoping
for some kind of criminalpunishment or addressing it in a
state that has a coercivecontrol law.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Which is also very limited because there aren't
that many, but in the UK theyare identifying stealthing now
as a form of rape, and sothey've been able to develop
legislation that criminalizesthe behavior.
And actually there's a you know, kind of well-known case I
think it was in Scotland wherethey put this guy away for 16
(22:21):
years for multiple offenses ofstealthing, which is kind of
remarkable and disturbing aswell stealthing in Australia.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
in several states.
Stealthing is now illegal inNew South Wales, victoria,
queensland, tasmania and SouthAustralia.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
And it's criminalized .
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Okay, that's good.
Those are good examples.
Anybody who's listening can go,you know, just look it up on
the internet to find out what isthe legislation in your state
or in your country, because weare heard around the world.
This podcast has aninternational following, so lots
of people will be impacted bythis type of information.
On this topic, let's turn ourattention to your work with
other survivors.
(23:12):
Tell us about how you supportother survivors and educate
about reproductive coercion.
What are you working on?
Speaker 2 (23:19):
I began my journey by training and volunteering with
a local domestic abuse advocateorganization here in Central
Texas, where I work now.
They are called Hope Allianceand they not only help victims
of domestic abuse but alsosexual assault, and so I think
(23:41):
that began my journey.
I've also been aective, and forthe past year I've done, I want
(24:02):
to say, at least 10, if notmore, podcasts and also some
online interviews where I'veshared my story of reproductive
coercion, and in doing that,some of the feedback that either
the podcast hosts or that I'vegotten myself is that many
victims are getting sort ofthose aha moments.
(24:26):
They're sort of questioning itthemselves, similar to the way
that I did for many, many years.
Is this behavior typical, isthis behavior okay?
And so my hope is that, indoing these various trainings
and hoping to lift up survivorsand bring awareness so that we
(24:48):
can somehow increase theknowledge and also increase the
available punishment that isaround this type of behavior.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
That's quite the undertaking for an individual.
I think that it's veryadmirable for you to take up
this cause and I also think thatit's critically important to
the people that it supports.
Right, Because you're an expert, you're a Survivors are the
experts, and so I think you canbe, you know, lend a really
(25:19):
valuable voice to theconversation and hopefully move
things forward.
I'm curious, as both a survivorand an expert in this lived
experience of reproductivecoercion, if you have a specific
call to action for survivors,advocates, law enforcement or
others for survivors, advocates,law enforcement or others.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
My goal in all of this is to encourage other women
to not only become quiteintrospective of their own
relationships and that,hopefully, that everything that
has gone on, not only in thepast couple of years with Roe v
Wade being dialed back, but alsoin witnessing our government
(26:02):
dial back on many things andwe're seeing a dial back on
women's rights, on LGBTQ rightsI think it's so important for
victims and women specifically,to own their narrative, to share
their story in as many ways asthey see comfortable, and you
can share your story anonymouslyso that you can do it in a way
(26:26):
where you feel safe.
I definitely started out thatway, although I reached a point
in my journey where I felt likeI really wanted to own this as
part of who I am, I don't feelany shame about it anymore.
That's been a very, verydifficult process for me, so I
encourage anyone who also hasthe ear of local law enforcement
(26:49):
or congressional relationshipsor does any type of lobbying or
anything like that does anyadvocacy work.
I sincerely encourage thosepeople to listen to the stories
of survivors people who haveactually lived through this and
try to make a real effort toincrease the laws and to better
(27:13):
narrow the laws so that we havemore protection from things like
this.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
I think that's a great goal.
I think that it's going torequire many people who are
listening to these stories totake the time to get a deeper
understanding of what ishappening in these intimate
partner relationships, wherethere is coercive control and
then thereby reproductivecoercion.
I think you're spot on aboutthat and I really appreciate the
(27:39):
time you spent with us andhearing your story and your
bravery in telling it, and Ithank you for being here.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Thank you so much, Maria.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Genesis Women's Shelter and Support exists to
give women in abusive situationsa way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
(28:07):
domestic violence.
You can learn more atGenesisShelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
Genesis Women's Shelter, and onX at Genesis Shelter.
The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, seven
days a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.
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