July 14, 2025 • 20 mins
Could your kindness be putting you in danger? This eye-opening conversation with Laura Frombach and Joy Farrow reveals how predators don't actually look for weakness—they deliberately target kindness, empathy, and accommodation.
In this episode, Laura Frombach shares her powerful personal story of growing up with generational domestic violence, watching her once very kind mother transform under years of abuse and coercive control. Her journey to understanding took 50 years, ultimately revealing that domestic violence doesn't just harm the victim physically—it fundamentally alters their psychology, creating a cage they cannot escape. Laura's technological background offers a fresh lens: women's safety intuition is hardware, but society installs politeness "software" that teaches us to override our natural protective instincts.
Joy Farrow, drawing from her 28 years as a deputy sheriff, provides chilling examples of notorious predators who expertly hid behind respectable facades. From Larry Nassar to Ted Bundy, these individuals specifically targeted women who were empathetic, trusting, and unlikely to establish firm boundaries. This counterintuitive understanding challenges everything we thought we knew about victimhood.
The conversation delivers practical "software updates" for women: speaking instincts aloud, rehearsing boundary-setting like CPR, making politeness optional rather than default, and surrounding yourself with boundary-respecting women. Most importantly, they help listeners recognize "fawning"—being nice out of fear—as a trauma response that keeps women vulnerable to manipulation.
Whether you've experienced domestic violence firsthand or simply want to better protect yourself and loved ones, this conversation offers transformative insights about reclaiming your instincts and establishing boundaries without apology. Your kindness is a strength—but only when paired with clear boundaries that keep you safe.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today we launch a three-part conversation
addressing critical yet lessunderstood aspects of domestic
violence.
My guests, laura Frombach andJoy Farrow, join the show to
share unique perspectives on thetopics of misogyny, predatory
behaviors and growth beyond theabuse.
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis.
The Podcast.
Today's episode discusses theweaponization of kindness, a
(00:27):
predatory behavior practiced byabusive men who prey upon women
who were taught to be kind aboveall else, even their own safety
.
Laura Frombach knows thisscenario firsthand, having lived
it throughout her own childhood.
Today, laura is more than asurvivor of domestic violence.
She is an army veteran, asuccessful businesswoman, an
author and advocate for womeneverywhere.
(00:48):
Lara was introduced totechnology in the US Army,
working on Pershing nuclearmissiles, and spent much of her
career as a technologist andengineer with Fortune 50
companies.
A turning point in Lara's lifewas the aha moment when she
correlated her mother's mentalillness to domestic violence.
Laura is the co-author ofStreet Smart Safety for Women
(01:09):
your Guide to Defensive Living.
She speaks on behalf of localdomestic violence shelters.
Joy Farrow is a retired deputysheriff with 28 years of
experience.
She worked road patrol inPompano Beach, florida, and
faced every single imaginablesituation.
After the 9-11 tragedy, joytransferred to the Fort
Lauderdale HollywoodInternational Airport with the
(01:31):
Broward Sheriff's Office tofocus on the safety of air
travelers.
In 2017, joy assisted with theaftermath of the mass shooting
at the airport.
During her time on the force,she received numerous letters of
commendation and severallife-saving awards.
She is the co-author of StreetSmart Safety for Women your
Guide to Defensive Living.
This episode will discussdomestic violence and substance
(01:53):
use.
Laura and Joy welcome to theshow, thank you so much Pleased
to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Thank you, maria, we're thrilled to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
I'm thrilled to have you here and I so enjoyed
meeting both of you.
We talked on Zoom recently andthen we met up at the Conference
on Crimes Against Women a fewweeks ago, and we just have
really had some very meaningfulconversations about the work
you're doing and all of thedifferent work that's being done
in the field of gender-basedviolence.
But today we're embarking on athree-part conversation to cover
(02:22):
some very nuanced topicsrelated to domestic violence.
In many ways, these ideas arenot new.
Rather, they are a fresh lookat predatory tactics and
resulting consequences that haveresounded throughout the ages.
Now, laura, you have verycandidly shared your personal
experience with domesticviolence in the powerful account
(02:42):
of your own mother, who, as yousay, was once the kindest
person anyone ever knew and yetwhose life spiraled into
violence and alcoholism.
Tell us a little about your momand what happened to her.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
First of all, I grew up with alcoholism and
generational domestic violence,so my father and his five
brothers and my grandfathers fararound as I could see in my
family were all alcoholics andthey were all abusers.
My father's brothers marriedvery kind women, and they all
(03:15):
suffered at the hands of thesemen, so I believe that my
mother's experiences with my dadturned her into an alcoholic.
So, as brutal as my father was,though, and as violent as he
was, he actually couldn'tcompare to the violence and
brutality of my mother.
Now, my father's drunken rages,if you were a smart kid like I
(03:37):
was, were easy to avoid.
You could avoid them by sensingthem coming, but my mother's
violence was very calculated, itwas very cruel, and she took
her violence out on her children, and so I hated her for many
years because of that.
I wasn't fond of my father,obviously, but I particularly
hated my mother because of thecruelty of her violence, and the
(04:01):
interesting thing was thatabout my mom was that my mom's
relative said she wasn't alwayslike that.
She was once the kindest personthat anyone ever knew, but the
mother I knew was not like that.
She was, as I mentioned, crueland violent.
So what happened to my mom toturn her from that person to the
cruel person, and so, actually,my family and I talked about
(04:25):
this for many years, what couldhave happened to her, and she
finally left my dad.
And you know you would havethought that once she finally
got out of the abusive situationshe would go back to that nice
person, but the truth of thematter is that she went downhill
and she spiraled even further.
She went downhill and shespiraled even further.
(04:47):
She drank more, she raged outmore, she really hated everybody
.
And so, despite all of this,there was one very interesting
thing about her Despite all ofthe violence and all of the
brutality, she never left thehouse in almost 20 years without
my dad Never once.
Now she could have my dadworked a lot, but she never once
left the house, and so somepeople back in the day said, oh
(05:07):
my gosh, that was love.
But today we know that wascoercive control, and my mom was
dominated by coercive controlto the fact she never even went
shopping.
So we have found that women whoare under coercive control, you
can't really picture what it'slike for them unless you picture
them being in a cage.
And so, as I said, you know wetalked for so long about what
(05:30):
could have happened to her.
What could have happened to her.
And then, just a few years ago,I thought to myself, just out
of the blue, I thought could ithave been the violence?
And then I thought, well,that's stupid.
Who in the hell can't take apunch?
I was appalled at my ownthinking, because I'm 70 years
old and I've been working onmyself for 50 years to try and
(05:51):
recover from this trauma, andwhat that showed me was that
somehow deep down inside of me,that thinking is still there.
So I started thinking backabout my mom and I started
researching and I realized thatwhat I thought was cruelty
there's no excusing that, that'strue.
But when I realized that mymother wasn't evil, probably was
(06:15):
not intentionally cruel, butshe was still in a cage and had
never been able to leave thatcage, and so that really
influenced, that was a gamechanger for me.
It was life changing and itreally affected the way that I
thought about domestic violence.
You know, I knew I grew up in aviolent home, but I didn't
really put all the piecestogether and so I thought, if I
(06:37):
didn't understand this after somany years, I am certain that
there are so many other peoplewho don't understand it either.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
That's a very powerful story and experience
and I really respect the journeythat you are on, for you know
50 years to understand whathappened to you, what happened
to your mother and how you canheal from all that.
And in another episode we'regoing to talk about just that,
about that healing part,post-abuse.
Now you and Joy have a theorythat you discuss in your book
(07:06):
Street Smart Safety for Women,and you explore how societal
conditioning teaches women tosilence their internal alarms
and how that conditioningfunctions less like a character
trait and more like bad software.
I appreciate the text referenceand it's interesting.
You made this connection, laura, through your work as a
technologist over the years, sowith your background in
(07:26):
technology, you said that safetyintuition is hardware, our
built-in survival system, likewhat any other mammal has, but
that politeness is the softwaresociety installs to override it.
Can you walk us through howthat FALTI program suppresses
women's instincts and what itlooks like to reprogram it?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Absolutely so, falti.
Here's how I frame itSituational awareness, our gut
instincts and what Joy and Icall our safety intuition is
simply our five senses reportingdanger back to our subconscious
.
And you mentioned, maria, it'sour hardwired survival system
and it's baked into our biologyjust like it is with every other
(08:08):
mammal.
But then society installs asoftware app, so let's call it
the Politeness Program.
It's not bad, necessarily Imean we need a civil society,
right.
But then we believe an extrapiece of software is socialized
into so many women, and it's aspecial version of the
(08:29):
Politeness Program, version ofthe politeness program which we
call a virus actually.
So this virus tells women thatwe have to be polite and
accommodate others before weattend to ourselves.
And this is where the problembegins.
We are trained, especially aswomen, from the time that we're
little girls, to prioritizebeing nice over being safe.
(08:52):
And so the malware, or thevirus as we call it, teaches us
don't offend, don't overreactand especially don't be rude.
And this software runs in thebackground all the time, and
here's the kicker it overridesour hardware, it overrides our
(09:12):
instincts.
So our internal system mightscream this doesn't feel right,
but the social code quietlywhispers be polite.
So how do we startreprogramming?
So we have four tacticalupgrades that anyone listening
can make right now.
Number one speak your instinctsinto consciousness.
(09:37):
So when something feels off,tell yourself this feels wrong.
And that simple act tells yourbrain my instincts matter.
Number two rehearse boundarysetting like you would rehearse
CPR.
It needs to be ready on demand.
Practice saying no, practice inno-risk situations like maybe a
(09:59):
restaurant or the grocery store.
And the important thing is donot leave room for negotiation,
because that's what happens whenwomen leave room for
negotiation.
People don't want to hear nofrom women, so they start
negotiating.
And number three make yourpoliteness optional.
So treat it like a softwaresetting, not a default.
(10:20):
Turn it on when you feel safe,but if you don't feel safe, shut
it down.
Number four surround yourselfwith women who honor their
instincts and don't apologizefor it, because that's how you
rewire your code faster.
When you start living from thehardware and not the virus, you
don't just feel safer, you aresafer because those are your
(10:43):
instincts.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
That's great advice.
Is all of this in your book?
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yes, so just to recap , number one speak your
instincts into consciousness.
Number two rehearse boundarysettings like you'd rehearse CPR
.
Number three your politeness isoptional, it's not a default
setting.
And number four surroundyourself with other women who
honor their instincts and theydon't apologize for it.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Excellent advice.
Hopefully listeners decide topick up your book.
They can find some of thisinformation in it.
So let's take this back and tryto tie it into your mom's story
for a minute.
Could any of these conceptshave helped her?
Do you think she would haveaccepted or been able to accept
that kind of advice at that timein her life?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I think if we would have gotten to my mom early
enough, she would have.
As I said, she was a very kindperson and her relatives could
not stress that enough.
As I said, she was a very kindperson and her relatives could
not stress that enough.
And if my mom had known, likeso many other women, if they had
known what they were up against, that their kindness makes them
susceptible to predators, thatkindness without boundaries was
(11:46):
not in service to her, I thinkshe would have taken that advice
, because I think a lot of theproblem with my mom is that she
was so kind that she was naive,and if she would have had this
knowledge and been able toimplement it, she may have had a
different ending to her story.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Yeah, that's a great observation.
Now can you help us unpack howpredators, in both intimate and
public spaces, deliberately seekout empathetic, polite and
accommodating women, not becausethey're weak or vulnerable, but
because they've been programmedto override their instincts in
the name of being nice?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
They seek out kind women because they know the
women will be accommodating,they know that they will be
loyal and they know that theycan do whatever they want in
public or in private, and thewomen will forgive them over and
over and over.
And then, of course, as we know, the victims become accustomed
(12:42):
to that behavior.
Their self-esteem sinks lowerand they don't expect anything
different.
They're hardwired because ofthe virus that's been installed
in them.
They think they have to be theanswer to everything for
everybody, over and over andover.
And you know, because it's soingrained in them and that
(13:02):
software keeps whispering in thebackground.
They don't protect themselves,nor do they listen to their own
voice that says you know what?
Something's wrong here, I needto get out.
And by the time they do, oftenthey're in so much danger that
it's much more complicated.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
That's very true.
Now, joy, you've said predatorsdon't look for weakness, they
look for kindness.
What does that mean, and howhave you seen that play out in
your own lives or in casesyou've studied?
Speaker 3 (13:29):
What we're saying, maria, is when we say predators
don't look for weakness and theylook for kindness, we mean that
predators are targeting mainlywomen who are empathetic,
trusting and polite.
Predators look for someone whowill give them a chance, someone
who won't say no easily andsomeone who second guesses their
(13:53):
own gut feelings to avoidseeming rude.
You've heard predators hide inplain sight.
I know because I've seen itover and over again during my
career.
So I know predators aren't allthe same and they don't all look
dangerous.
I can give you three famouspredator examples.
(14:14):
No one saw coming.
Oh yeah, let's hear them.
So one is Larry Nassar.
So he was the doctor of the USwomen's gymnastics team and a
professor at Michigan State.
He sexually assaulted 265 womenand girls under the guise of
medical care for years.
(14:34):
Why?
Because he looked like a goodguy, because he wore a white
coat, because predators blend inTwo, ted Bundy.
He didn't look like a killer.
He was smart, charming and heworked at a suicide crisis
hotline, so women trusted him.
That's how he lured them in.
(14:55):
He faked needing help, likehaving a hurt arm or car trouble
, and women helped him.
He knew how to disarm them withcharm.
And that's what makes predatorsso dangerous.
Bundy assaulted and murdered atleast 30 women.
Number three, robert Hansen.
(15:16):
He ran a bakery in Anchorage,alaska, married.
Soft-spoken people said he wasquiet and hard-working, but
behind the scenes he huntedwomen like animals, killed them
like prey.
He targeted women who weren'talways believed or protected.
He hid in plain sight for adecade because people trusted
(15:40):
his mask.
Hansen murdered 17 women.
Now here's what I knowPredators test boundaries, so if
you're too nice to say no, theynotice, and that's why trusting
your instincts matters morethan being polite.
That's why we call it theweaponization of kindness.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
I'm still thinking through the examples you gave,
because those are such powerfulstories.
Especially the Larry Nassarexample is a really remarkable
one, because we don't oftenthink about that connection to
preying on kindness but truly itis because he had a captive
audience, right, he had a just awhole pool of young girls that
(16:22):
he could prey upon.
He was the physician.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Right.
So he would tell them thatwhatever procedure quote he was
doing was preemptive of whateverthe situation they had.
So that's how he did it infront of parents at homes.
They didn't realize what washappening to them until they
(16:45):
started talking, actually yearslater, amongst themselves.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Yeah, it's a horrifying story.
Now, Joy, let's keep going onthese topics and talk about
being polite.
So there are costs to teachinggirls to be polite, no matter
what.
Let's talk about those and howwe can help women reprogram that
obedience software to trusttheir instincts instead.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Teaching girls to be polite, no matter what can cost
them their safety.
It trains them to ignore theirgut feelings so they may stay
quiet when something feels off.
It teaches them to prioritizeother people and they confuse
being kind with compliantPredators.
(17:28):
Count on that and politenessbecomes a trap.
You know how can we reprogramthat obedience software?
Let's start by naming itObedience isn't safety.
Validate your gut feelings asreal intelligence Practice in
real life.
(17:48):
The small no's are big wins.
Role play, boundary settingwith people that you trust, and
when you're uncomfortable,that's your cue, not a flaw.
You're not responsible for howother people feel about your
boundaries.
That's important.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
That's a super important one right there,
because, as a recovering peoplepleaser.
I understand that my boundariesmay not make other people happy
, but they're important to meand so it doesn't make you
always the most popular personto have strong boundaries and
people don't always want torespect them, but I think that's
a very important point rightthere.
Now, Laura, for survivorslistening what's one practical
(18:31):
step they can take to shift frombeing nice out of fear to being
kind and strong with boundaries?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
For survivors listening.
Here's the one practical step.
Start noticing when you'rebeing nice out of fear and name
it.
As Joy said, that's the pivotpoint.
Ask yourself am I saying nobecause I mean it or because I'm
afraid of what will happen if Ido say no?
So being nice out of fear isactually a trauma response
(18:59):
called fawning, and we hearabout freezing and fighting and
running, but I don't think thatfawning is talked about enough.
Fawning is not specific towomen, but it is observed more
often in women due to oursocialization to be
accommodating.
So I want survivors to knowthat being kind does not mean
being passive.
(19:19):
Kindness with boundaries isstrength and you can say I hear
you but I'm not available forthat.
You can say I'm not comfortable.
That's not rude, that's havingyour own back.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Yeah, and those are perfect statements.
Any of us could use those inmultiple situations and they
don't sound rude to me, theyjust sound very firm.
No room for negotiation?
Absolutely, so I'd love to givepeople your website or how to
find you on social media so theycan learn more and also find
your book.
Street Smart Safety.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
StreetSmartSafetyorg.
We are on social.
We are on social.
We are on Facebook, we're onLinkedIn, we're on Instagram and
we're on YouTube, but ourheadquarters central is our
website, streetsmartsafetyorg.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Thanks so much for talking with me today.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
This has been wonderful.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Thanks so much, Maria .
Genesis Women's Shelter andSupport exists to give women in
abusive situations a way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence, and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
(20:27):
domestic violence.
You can learn more atgenesisshelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
Genesis Women's Shelter, and onX at Genesis Shelter.
The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, 7 days
a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.
Today we launch a three-part conversation
addressing critical yet lessunderstood aspects of domestic
violence.
My guests, laura Frombach andJoy Farrow, join the show to
share unique perspectives on thetopics of misogyny, predatory
behaviors and growth beyond theabuse.
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis.
The Podcast.
Today's episode discusses theweaponization of kindness, a
(00:27):
predatory behavior practiced byabusive men who prey upon women
who were taught to be kind aboveall else, even their own safety
.
Laura Frombach knows thisscenario firsthand, having lived
it throughout her own childhood.
Today, laura is more than asurvivor of domestic violence.
She is an army veteran, asuccessful businesswoman, an
author and advocate for womeneverywhere.
(00:48):
Lara was introduced totechnology in the US Army,
working on Pershing nuclearmissiles, and spent much of her
career as a technologist andengineer with Fortune 50
companies.
A turning point in Lara's lifewas the aha moment when she
correlated her mother's mentalillness to domestic violence.
Laura is the co-author ofStreet Smart Safety for Women
(01:09):
your Guide to Defensive Living.
She speaks on behalf of localdomestic violence shelters.
Joy Farrow is a retired deputysheriff with 28 years of
experience.
She worked road patrol inPompano Beach, florida, and
faced every single imaginablesituation.
After the 9-11 tragedy, joytransferred to the Fort
Lauderdale HollywoodInternational Airport with the
(01:31):
Broward Sheriff's Office tofocus on the safety of air
travelers.
In 2017, joy assisted with theaftermath of the mass shooting
at the airport.
During her time on the force,she received numerous letters of
commendation and severallife-saving awards.
She is the co-author of StreetSmart Safety for Women your
Guide to Defensive Living.
This episode will discussdomestic violence and substance
(01:53):
use.
Laura and Joy welcome to theshow, thank you so much Pleased
to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Thank you, maria, we're thrilled to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
I'm thrilled to have you here and I so enjoyed
meeting both of you.
We talked on Zoom recently andthen we met up at the Conference
on Crimes Against Women a fewweeks ago, and we just have
really had some very meaningfulconversations about the work
you're doing and all of thedifferent work that's being done
in the field of gender-basedviolence.
But today we're embarking on athree-part conversation to cover
(02:22):
some very nuanced topicsrelated to domestic violence.
In many ways, these ideas arenot new.
Rather, they are a fresh lookat predatory tactics and
resulting consequences that haveresounded throughout the ages.
Now, laura, you have verycandidly shared your personal
experience with domesticviolence in the powerful account
(02:42):
of your own mother, who, as yousay, was once the kindest
person anyone ever knew and yetwhose life spiraled into
violence and alcoholism.
Tell us a little about your momand what happened to her.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
First of all, I grew up with alcoholism and
generational domestic violence,so my father and his five
brothers and my grandfathers fararound as I could see in my
family were all alcoholics andthey were all abusers.
My father's brothers marriedvery kind women, and they all
(03:15):
suffered at the hands of thesemen, so I believe that my
mother's experiences with my dadturned her into an alcoholic.
So, as brutal as my father was,though, and as violent as he
was, he actually couldn'tcompare to the violence and
brutality of my mother.
Now, my father's drunken rages,if you were a smart kid like I
(03:37):
was, were easy to avoid.
You could avoid them by sensingthem coming, but my mother's
violence was very calculated, itwas very cruel, and she took
her violence out on her children, and so I hated her for many
years because of that.
I wasn't fond of my father,obviously, but I particularly
hated my mother because of thecruelty of her violence, and the
(04:01):
interesting thing was thatabout my mom was that my mom's
relative said she wasn't alwayslike that.
She was once the kindest personthat anyone ever knew, but the
mother I knew was not like that.
She was, as I mentioned, crueland violent.
So what happened to my mom toturn her from that person to the
cruel person, and so, actually,my family and I talked about
(04:25):
this for many years, what couldhave happened to her, and she
finally left my dad.
And you know you would havethought that once she finally
got out of the abusive situationshe would go back to that nice
person, but the truth of thematter is that she went downhill
and she spiraled even further.
She went downhill and shespiraled even further.
(04:47):
She drank more, she raged outmore, she really hated everybody
.
And so, despite all of this,there was one very interesting
thing about her Despite all ofthe violence and all of the
brutality, she never left thehouse in almost 20 years without
my dad Never once.
Now she could have my dadworked a lot, but she never once
left the house, and so somepeople back in the day said, oh
(05:07):
my gosh, that was love.
But today we know that wascoercive control, and my mom was
dominated by coercive controlto the fact she never even went
shopping.
So we have found that women whoare under coercive control, you
can't really picture what it'slike for them unless you picture
them being in a cage.
And so, as I said, you know wetalked for so long about what
(05:30):
could have happened to her.
What could have happened to her.
And then, just a few years ago,I thought to myself, just out
of the blue, I thought could ithave been the violence?
And then I thought, well,that's stupid.
Who in the hell can't take apunch?
I was appalled at my ownthinking, because I'm 70 years
old and I've been working onmyself for 50 years to try and
(05:51):
recover from this trauma, andwhat that showed me was that
somehow deep down inside of me,that thinking is still there.
So I started thinking backabout my mom and I started
researching and I realized thatwhat I thought was cruelty
there's no excusing that, that'strue.
But when I realized that mymother wasn't evil, probably was
(06:15):
not intentionally cruel, butshe was still in a cage and had
never been able to leave thatcage, and so that really
influenced, that was a gamechanger for me.
It was life changing and itreally affected the way that I
thought about domestic violence.
You know, I knew I grew up in aviolent home, but I didn't
really put all the piecestogether and so I thought, if I
(06:37):
didn't understand this after somany years, I am certain that
there are so many other peoplewho don't understand it either.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
That's a very powerful story and experience
and I really respect the journeythat you are on, for you know
50 years to understand whathappened to you, what happened
to your mother and how you canheal from all that.
And in another episode we'regoing to talk about just that,
about that healing part,post-abuse.
Now you and Joy have a theorythat you discuss in your book
(07:06):
Street Smart Safety for Women,and you explore how societal
conditioning teaches women tosilence their internal alarms
and how that conditioningfunctions less like a character
trait and more like bad software.
I appreciate the text referenceand it's interesting.
You made this connection, laura, through your work as a
technologist over the years, sowith your background in
(07:26):
technology, you said that safetyintuition is hardware, our
built-in survival system, likewhat any other mammal has, but
that politeness is the softwaresociety installs to override it.
Can you walk us through howthat FALTI program suppresses
women's instincts and what itlooks like to reprogram it?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Absolutely so, falti.
Here's how I frame itSituational awareness, our gut
instincts and what Joy and Icall our safety intuition is
simply our five senses reportingdanger back to our subconscious
.
And you mentioned, maria, it'sour hardwired survival system
and it's baked into our biologyjust like it is with every other
(08:08):
mammal.
But then society installs asoftware app, so let's call it
the Politeness Program.
It's not bad, necessarily Imean we need a civil society,
right.
But then we believe an extrapiece of software is socialized
into so many women, and it's aspecial version of the
(08:29):
Politeness Program, version ofthe politeness program which we
call a virus actually.
So this virus tells women thatwe have to be polite and
accommodate others before weattend to ourselves.
And this is where the problembegins.
We are trained, especially aswomen, from the time that we're
little girls, to prioritizebeing nice over being safe.
(08:52):
And so the malware, or thevirus as we call it, teaches us
don't offend, don't overreactand especially don't be rude.
And this software runs in thebackground all the time, and
here's the kicker it overridesour hardware, it overrides our
(09:12):
instincts.
So our internal system mightscream this doesn't feel right,
but the social code quietlywhispers be polite.
So how do we startreprogramming?
So we have four tacticalupgrades that anyone listening
can make right now.
Number one speak your instinctsinto consciousness.
(09:37):
So when something feels off,tell yourself this feels wrong.
And that simple act tells yourbrain my instincts matter.
Number two rehearse boundarysetting like you would rehearse
CPR.
It needs to be ready on demand.
Practice saying no, practice inno-risk situations like maybe a
(09:59):
restaurant or the grocery store.
And the important thing is donot leave room for negotiation,
because that's what happens whenwomen leave room for
negotiation.
People don't want to hear nofrom women, so they start
negotiating.
And number three make yourpoliteness optional.
So treat it like a softwaresetting, not a default.
(10:20):
Turn it on when you feel safe,but if you don't feel safe, shut
it down.
Number four surround yourselfwith women who honor their
instincts and don't apologizefor it, because that's how you
rewire your code faster.
When you start living from thehardware and not the virus, you
don't just feel safer, you aresafer because those are your
(10:43):
instincts.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
That's great advice.
Is all of this in your book?
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yes, so just to recap , number one speak your
instincts into consciousness.
Number two rehearse boundarysettings like you'd rehearse CPR
.
Number three your politeness isoptional, it's not a default
setting.
And number four surroundyourself with other women who
honor their instincts and theydon't apologize for it.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Excellent advice.
Hopefully listeners decide topick up your book.
They can find some of thisinformation in it.
So let's take this back and tryto tie it into your mom's story
for a minute.
Could any of these conceptshave helped her?
Do you think she would haveaccepted or been able to accept
that kind of advice at that timein her life?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I think if we would have gotten to my mom early
enough, she would have.
As I said, she was a very kindperson and her relatives could
not stress that enough.
As I said, she was a very kindperson and her relatives could
not stress that enough.
And if my mom had known, likeso many other women, if they had
known what they were up against, that their kindness makes them
susceptible to predators, thatkindness without boundaries was
(11:46):
not in service to her, I thinkshe would have taken that advice
, because I think a lot of theproblem with my mom is that she
was so kind that she was naive,and if she would have had this
knowledge and been able toimplement it, she may have had a
different ending to her story.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Yeah, that's a great observation.
Now can you help us unpack howpredators, in both intimate and
public spaces, deliberately seekout empathetic, polite and
accommodating women, not becausethey're weak or vulnerable, but
because they've been programmedto override their instincts in
the name of being nice?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
They seek out kind women because they know the
women will be accommodating,they know that they will be
loyal and they know that theycan do whatever they want in
public or in private, and thewomen will forgive them over and
over and over.
And then, of course, as we know, the victims become accustomed
(12:42):
to that behavior.
Their self-esteem sinks lowerand they don't expect anything
different.
They're hardwired because ofthe virus that's been installed
in them.
They think they have to be theanswer to everything for
everybody, over and over andover.
And you know, because it's soingrained in them and that
(13:02):
software keeps whispering in thebackground.
They don't protect themselves,nor do they listen to their own
voice that says you know what?
Something's wrong here, I needto get out.
And by the time they do, oftenthey're in so much danger that
it's much more complicated.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
That's very true.
Now, joy, you've said predatorsdon't look for weakness, they
look for kindness.
What does that mean, and howhave you seen that play out in
your own lives or in casesyou've studied?
Speaker 3 (13:29):
What we're saying, maria, is when we say predators
don't look for weakness and theylook for kindness, we mean that
predators are targeting mainlywomen who are empathetic,
trusting and polite.
Predators look for someone whowill give them a chance, someone
who won't say no easily andsomeone who second guesses their
(13:53):
own gut feelings to avoidseeming rude.
You've heard predators hide inplain sight.
I know because I've seen itover and over again during my
career.
So I know predators aren't allthe same and they don't all look
dangerous.
I can give you three famouspredator examples.
(14:14):
No one saw coming.
Oh yeah, let's hear them.
So one is Larry Nassar.
So he was the doctor of the USwomen's gymnastics team and a
professor at Michigan State.
He sexually assaulted 265 womenand girls under the guise of
medical care for years.
(14:34):
Why?
Because he looked like a goodguy, because he wore a white
coat, because predators blend inTwo, ted Bundy.
He didn't look like a killer.
He was smart, charming and heworked at a suicide crisis
hotline, so women trusted him.
That's how he lured them in.
(14:55):
He faked needing help, likehaving a hurt arm or car trouble
, and women helped him.
He knew how to disarm them withcharm.
And that's what makes predatorsso dangerous.
Bundy assaulted and murdered atleast 30 women.
Number three, robert Hansen.
(15:16):
He ran a bakery in Anchorage,alaska, married.
Soft-spoken people said he wasquiet and hard-working, but
behind the scenes he huntedwomen like animals, killed them
like prey.
He targeted women who weren'talways believed or protected.
He hid in plain sight for adecade because people trusted
(15:40):
his mask.
Hansen murdered 17 women.
Now here's what I knowPredators test boundaries, so if
you're too nice to say no, theynotice, and that's why trusting
your instincts matters morethan being polite.
That's why we call it theweaponization of kindness.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
I'm still thinking through the examples you gave,
because those are such powerfulstories.
Especially the Larry Nassarexample is a really remarkable
one, because we don't oftenthink about that connection to
preying on kindness but truly itis because he had a captive
audience, right, he had a just awhole pool of young girls that
(16:22):
he could prey upon.
He was the physician.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Right.
So he would tell them thatwhatever procedure quote he was
doing was preemptive of whateverthe situation they had.
So that's how he did it infront of parents at homes.
They didn't realize what washappening to them until they
(16:45):
started talking, actually yearslater, amongst themselves.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Yeah, it's a horrifying story.
Now, Joy, let's keep going onthese topics and talk about
being polite.
So there are costs to teachinggirls to be polite, no matter
what.
Let's talk about those and howwe can help women reprogram that
obedience software to trusttheir instincts instead.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Teaching girls to be polite, no matter what can cost
them their safety.
It trains them to ignore theirgut feelings so they may stay
quiet when something feels off.
It teaches them to prioritizeother people and they confuse
being kind with compliantPredators.
(17:28):
Count on that and politenessbecomes a trap.
You know how can we reprogramthat obedience software?
Let's start by naming itObedience isn't safety.
Validate your gut feelings asreal intelligence Practice in
real life.
(17:48):
The small no's are big wins.
Role play, boundary settingwith people that you trust, and
when you're uncomfortable,that's your cue, not a flaw.
You're not responsible for howother people feel about your
boundaries.
That's important.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
That's a super important one right there,
because, as a recovering peoplepleaser.
I understand that my boundariesmay not make other people happy
, but they're important to meand so it doesn't make you
always the most popular personto have strong boundaries and
people don't always want torespect them, but I think that's
a very important point rightthere.
Now, Laura, for survivorslistening what's one practical
(18:31):
step they can take to shift frombeing nice out of fear to being
kind and strong with boundaries?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
For survivors listening.
Here's the one practical step.
Start noticing when you'rebeing nice out of fear and name
it.
As Joy said, that's the pivotpoint.
Ask yourself am I saying nobecause I mean it or because I'm
afraid of what will happen if Ido say no?
So being nice out of fear isactually a trauma response
(18:59):
called fawning, and we hearabout freezing and fighting and
running, but I don't think thatfawning is talked about enough.
Fawning is not specific towomen, but it is observed more
often in women due to oursocialization to be
accommodating.
So I want survivors to knowthat being kind does not mean
being passive.
(19:19):
Kindness with boundaries isstrength and you can say I hear
you but I'm not available forthat.
You can say I'm not comfortable.
That's not rude, that's havingyour own back.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Yeah, and those are perfect statements.
Any of us could use those inmultiple situations and they
don't sound rude to me, theyjust sound very firm.
No room for negotiation?
Absolutely, so I'd love to givepeople your website or how to
find you on social media so theycan learn more and also find
your book.
Street Smart Safety.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
StreetSmartSafetyorg.
We are on social.
We are on social.
We are on Facebook, we're onLinkedIn, we're on Instagram and
we're on YouTube, but ourheadquarters central is our
website, streetsmartsafetyorg.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Thanks so much for talking with me today.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
This has been wonderful.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Thanks so much, Maria .
Genesis Women's Shelter andSupport exists to give women in
abusive situations a way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence, and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
(20:27):
domestic violence.
You can learn more atgenesisshelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
Genesis Women's Shelter, and onX at Genesis Shelter.
The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, 7 days
a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.
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