November 18, 2024 • 38 mins
Discover the powerful ways in which neurodiversity intersects with domestic violence and learn how tailored support can make a difference. In this episode Jordyn Lawson, chief residential officer at Genesis, explores the unique challenges of neurodiversity in abusive environments. We'll uncover strategies for recognizing neurodivergent traits like developmental delays and learning issues in children and adults, emphasizing the importance of a supportive approach to care.
Together, we delve into the heart of what it means to support survivors with neurodiversity, focusing on the nuances of sensory sensitivities and the critical role of holistic care in addressing both parent and child needs. Jordyn reveals how Genesis incorporates evidence-based treatments to help survivors manage PTSD, viewing it as a form of neurodivergence that can be treated effectively. We also discuss how abusers exploit these vulnerabilities, further complicating the lives of those who are both neurodivergent and experiencing domestic violence.
By highlighting the significance of safety planning and the dangers of medical abuse, we aim to empower individuals on their journey to healing. Through personal mantras and community support, Genesis offers a lifeline to those feeling isolated and helpless. We emphasize the need for societal awareness and foster a perception shift to ensure that everyone knows they are not alone and that help is readily accessible. Join us for a conversation that promises insights, empathy, and actionable steps for fostering a supportive environment for all.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Neurodivergent is an emergent term that refers very
generally to someone whose brainprocesses information in a way
that is not typical of mostindividuals.
When people who areneurodivergent experience
domestic violence, specificconsiderations must be made
regarding their care andtreatment.
Today we dive into thefascinating field of domestic
(00:21):
violence services for ourneurodivergent friends and how
Genesis is making great stridesin handling them with care.
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis the podcast.
We welcome back Jordan Lawsonto the podcast in her first but
(00:41):
not last appearance in seasonfour of the show as, as an
expert with deep learning aboutclinical interventions for
domestic abuse survivors, Jordanpossesses more than a decade of
experience serving women andchildren who have suffered
trauma at the hands of anabusive partner or parent.
Jordan is the chief residentialofficer of Genesis, managing
all onsite housing services, aswell as Genesis Advocacy Program
(01:05):
, Child Care, Preschool and K-6Education.
Hi Jordan, Welcome back.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Thanks Marie, it's good to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Since Genesis began the occupational therapy program
several years ago, we've seenan influx of clients, more
specifically children, who haveexhibited neurodivergent traits,
and these children are, to us,very special because they are
witnesses of horrific crimes,crimes committed by a person
that they most likely love,despite him hurting someone else
(01:32):
who they love.
In our case, this is truly whendad hurts mom, and research
tells us that upwards of 50% ofthese children have themselves
been abused by their parent,again typically dad, which
compounds their trauma.
Combine all of that with anytypes of alternative brain
processing function and we havea recipe for a very special
situation that plays out in veryindividual ways.
(01:54):
So enter the termneurodivergent Now.
Neurodivergent is kind of acatch-all.
It groups together people whosecircumstances require perhaps a
diagnosis and some uniqueapproaches for services.
And, jordan, you and I talkabout that term very often when
we're just talking aboutservices at Genesis and clients
(02:17):
and specific stories of peoplethat we've worked with at the
organization, of people thatwe've worked with at the
organization.
So I'd love to start there andget a working definition for
this conversation ofneurodivergent.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, so neurodiversity, neurodivergent
coming from the termneurodiversity, it's kind of a
new term and it's one that not alot of people are really sure
exactly how to use.
So I think it's important tounderstand that the umbrella
term is neurodiversity andneurodiversity just speaks to
the fact of honoring that, ashumans, all of our brains sort
(02:53):
of function differently.
We think about thingsdifferently, we process
information differently, weprocess and experience
situations differently, have ourdifferent perspectives, right?
So neurodiversity is just sortof this broad term that honors
those differences.
Right, when we get toneurodivergent, we're talking
about somebody whose brain maybeis processing information
(03:15):
differently, maybe on a levelthat could be diagnosed like
something like ADHD or autismspectrum disorder.
Like ADHD or autism spectrumdisorder, maybe even a learning
disability, it could be ananxiety disorder, bipolar
disorder, an OCD disorder, right?
Yes, when you get to these kindof diagnosable areas or another
(03:36):
way to think aboutneurodivergent is a way in which
the specific ways that thisperson's brain functions
differently affects the brainmore impactful, right?
So it has a greater impact ontheir functioning or in their
ability to really be understoodin social situations or really
be as successful as theyabsolutely can be in different
(04:00):
environments.
The truth is there's nothingwrong or bad about any of these,
right?
The great thing about the termneurodiversity is there's
nothing wrong or bad about anyof these, right.
The great thing about the termneurodiversity is it's really
promoting inclusivity andempathy and understanding for
these differences, that they'renot wrong, they're not bad
differences, they're justdifferent.
And so, because thesedifferences are impactful on
functioning, sometimes they mayneed to be managed or to be
(04:24):
supported differently.
So, for example, if your childis exhibiting signs of
developmental delays or notbeing on target with certain
milestones, maybe learningdisabilities, maybe it is
explosive behavior or behaviorthat just feels different from
the other kids that you've seenIn my experience, a lot of moms
(04:46):
sort of have this feeling thatsomething might be there, and
those would be the things thatwe would encourage you to bring
to your counselor or to yourphysician or somebody and say,
hey, this thing's happening,because it could be a sign of
neurodivergent behavior.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I think you make some really important distinctions
there.
I appreciate the clarificationaround the terms neurodiversity,
neurodivergent.
What are the signs of beingneurodivergent and how can
domestic violence providersrecognize them?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
A lot of them.
You know a lot of these areseen in childhood, but what we
understand is that, because weare somewhat new to recognizing
these things or talking aboutthem, there's a lot of adults
that are starting to notice thatsome of the struggles that
they've had, or some of theunique things that they thought,
oh, I was the only one who doesthis thing or thinks this way
or notices it right, they'renoticing the impact of these and
(05:40):
so they're starting to bring itto their counselor.
They're starting to bring it upin conversations with helpers,
like a Genesis.
So we have a lot of clients whowill come in already reporting
the divergence that they may beexperiencing.
So they may be reportingstruggling with memory loss or
struggling to sort of recallthings, starting, you know, as a
mom struggling to have a to-dolist that's 17,000 things long
(06:04):
and I keep forgetting to do thisthing, or you know things like
that that they'll really bringto us, right, of course.
Then moms are bringing stufffor their kids too.
They may be talking aboutlearning disabilities that are
being seen as their child isstarting to learn in school, you
know, trying to learn how toread or trying to learn how to
do different things.
They might be starting to seesome struggle there, right?
(06:25):
A lot of our moms will noticenot just the behavior but the
reaction to the struggle, and soa lot of our kiddos will become
really dysregulated because ofthe way in which they're
struggling or they're not beingsupported or they're not being
helped in that moment, and sothat might become an explosive
sort of expression of thatstruggle.
(06:46):
So I'm really frustratedbecause I know what I want, but
you're not really understandingwhat I want and not giving me
what I want.
And so now I'm having thisexplosive sort of expression of
that, and so a lot of moms willcome talking about that, the
explosions, the expressions offrustration or anger.
And it's through talking aboutwhat came before the explosion
(07:08):
that we can start to identify,maybe a sensitivity to sensory
input.
So you were trying to put yourkiddos clothes on and they had a
full blown fit.
Well, maybe it's a sensitivityto the texture of the clothes,
right?
Or there's just.
You know, again, one of thethings I think we're both trying
to do this conversation is tobe really broad, or there's just
.
You know, again, one of thethings I think we're both trying
to do this conversation is tobe really broad, because there's
just so many things that couldbe neurodivergent.
(07:31):
Right, there's a lot ofdifferent examples, but what we
are noticing at Genesis is momscoming to us sort of already
having awareness that this mightbe something.
And so then, in being able toreally help moms talk it through
, when did this start?
What usually comes before?
Do you notice anything inparticular that sets your kid
(07:53):
off every single time?
Right Then, because moms areexperts on their kids, they can
really help us identify wherethat divergency might be.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
So, when working with children, like we do at Genesis
, why is knowing all of thisreally important?
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Well, you know.
So one of the things that webelieve strongly at Genesis is
that trauma-informed approach.
Right, trauma-informed approachmeans being considerate and
aware at all times.
How has the situation or thethings that have happened to a
client impacted the client?
And so it's this desire to beholistically understanding of a
(08:29):
client not just what are theirsymptoms or, but also what's
happened, what's their history,what's their likes, what their
dislikes and so this very muchgoes in line with that, that if
we're going to trulyholistically understand the
client in front of us we want tobe aware of and open to.
If somebody who isneurodivergent is coming in for
services, exactly how do theyneed us to support them, right?
(08:53):
Do they have a sensitivity tosensory input and so they're
going to be really affected bynoise in the lobby?
Well, we could arrange for themto come at a time and be able
to come into their appointmentwhere they have less time in the
lobby, because we know that,right Is it that occupational
(09:23):
therapy could help mom with andtrying to help her kid get
dressed when he keeps havingthese explosive things is just
the straw that is breaking herback, right?
So if we can support herholistically by having a
counselor talk to her about theabuse and the trauma and also
somebody help her with thisissue with her kid, then it
becomes this wraparound caretruly.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
How do all those types of things impact life at
home when a family isexperiencing domestic violence?
Because I would think thatcould create some volatility.
You know, the child won't brushtheir teeth or they're having a
tantrum because of it andthings start to spiral out of
control and that's at times.
(10:04):
It's a typical child behaviorto have a tantrum.
They're overloaded, they can'ttake anymore and they're just
not brushing their teeth tonight.
But I also know that that canset off an abuser.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, I think we've really seen it in sort of two
different ways, if you will Onebeing the client feeling like
maybe the specific needs of herchildren are a barrier to her
being able to leave, because shedoesn't feel like she'll be
able to support them fully byherself or she doesn't know what
resources are out there to beable to go.
(10:36):
So the idea of leaving andgoing to a safe place is that
much more overwhelming becauseof the special needs that her
children might have.
And then I think on the otherside, just like you were saying,
it does become this sort ofarea of potential.
I want to be really careful herebecause of course we know that
abuse is not somebody justgetting angry or triggered and
(10:58):
therefore choosing to hurtsomebody, to scream at them or
yell at them or hurt them, right.
So an abuser may get frustratedover a kid's tantrum and may
start screaming and yelling, butwe really understand that the
line in which it becomes abusiveis not just because the abuser
was frustrated, not just becausethe kid having a tantrum set
(11:18):
them off, but it's because theabuser really believes that he
has the right to dominate thehouse.
He has the right to telleverybody in the house what to
do and everybody should justjump to and get that done,
whereas a child withneurodivergency may, who is
neurodivergent may struggle tojump in line and do the thing
that's being told, and so thatit's that dominance that becomes
(11:41):
the weapon against the clientor the child.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Yeah, I can see it.
I mean, there are patterns ofbehavior that support exactly
what you're saying, and childrenof all walks of life are gonna
struggle staying in line whensomeone's got that level of
control over them.
And then, if you add inneurodiversity, it just
compounds the issue.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Right, and we recognize, we actually recognize
post-traumatic stress disorderas neurodivergent, right Like,
because PTSD is a neurologicalimpact on the brain because the
amygdala, the kind of threatcenter of the brain, is being
overworked, being overstimulated, it becomes more sensitive and
therefore is living in thisstate of survival or protection,
(12:32):
even in times like that, maynot be directly threatening.
So, for example, somebody who, akid, who lives in an abusive
home, their brain is going to beon guard for threat all day
long while they're in that home.
Well, when they go to school,the idea that we would like is
that when they go to school,they feel safe and so their
(12:52):
brain calms down and it's okay.
But the truth is, the moreoften that the brain is exposed
to threat, the more likely it isto just live in this state of
threat, and so they're living inthat state while in school as
well.
And so PTSD that's what we callPTSD this state, this living in
a state of you know, fight,flight or freeze right,
(13:12):
experiencing these reallyintense reminders of the trauma,
things like that.
So PTSD can be an example ofneurodivergency, because it
means that it's impacting theway in which the brain is
functioning differently, is nowaffecting the child's ability to
function in school.
They can't remember the mathlesson because their brain is so
(13:34):
focused on survival PTSD can beshort-term right Because it's
treatable.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
It is treatable, yes, and correctable.
It is correctable.
So I could have PTSD cominginto Genesis and be treated with
the right treatment plan for meclinical counseling, emdr or
other therapies and then nolonger be neurodivergent at the
end of it.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
So the idea is that PTSD is an example, yes, of a
treatable neurological impact oftrauma, right, and so the idea
is that the symptoms of PTSD arewhat's causing the
neurodiversity and so then, whenthat is deescalated right or
decreased, relieved right, ifsomebody gets the treatment and
(14:20):
their symptoms decrease, then,yes, the ability for their brain
to sort of function moretypically becomes greater.
We know that, you know, atGenesis we use evidence-based
treatments for PTSD, for example, and so we know that those are
highly effective in reducing thesymptoms.
Now, how effective those are for, you know, after she leaves
(14:42):
Genesis and does she no longerexperience any symptoms, or it's
really kind of specific to the,the client, her situation, the
trauma history that she's gonethrough.
But the idea, um, I think forfor our conversation of PTSD as
an example of experiencingneurodivergent or
neurodivergency, is that it'sthat it is something that can be
(15:05):
supported, that it's somethingthat you can get support from,
from a clinician that you canget that a client could build
skills to sort of manage howthat is.
And so if that's something thatthey learn and have to do and
manage their reactions or theirsymptoms for a short bit of time
, that's obviously beneficial.
But if it's skills that theylearn to manage these symptoms
(15:28):
because they may continue for along term, then what we really
appreciate about that is theidea that, even when they're no
longer coming to Genesis on aweekly basis, we've been able to
help them with those skills tobe able to carry forward.
That would benefit them inbeing able to recognize what
their needs are in certain typesof situations where
(15:49):
neurodivergency might be a thingfor them.
Right, they know when thesemight be a time for them.
They know what skills theycould use or coping strategies
they might have to take care ofthemselves at those times, and
so they can sort ofindependently and in an
empowered way, right, take careof themselves on whatever level
they might be experiencing thesesymptoms or these kind of
(16:12):
different things.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Just a few minutes ago in our conversation, you
mentioned occupational therapy,and Genesis is one of the only
domestic violence agencies inthe nation that offers
occupational therapy fordomestic violence survivors.
How does OT or occupationaltherapy help both kids and
adults who are survivors andneurodivergent?
Speaker 2 (16:32):
So the you know, in all transparency, I am a
licensed professional counselorand so I got into this field to
do counseling and I was actuallyin this work for several years
before I really I don't evenwant to admit how long I'd been
doing this work before I reallylearned what occupational
therapy is, and when I learnedit I just became so aware of how
(16:52):
well it partnered with what Iwas doing with my clients.
But it's like the next step ofwhat I wasn't able to do, and
what I mean by that is, in acounseling appointment, my
clients gain insight andawareness, and so they become.
They might become more, um,like we were talking about, more
aware of what their symptomsare, their diversity is, and
they might become more awareinto the moments that they need
(17:15):
skills, um, but occupationaltherapy is the one, the, the,
the therapist, who can reallycome in and help them develop
those skills, help them practicethose skills, really get into
the very real life.
We have seen sort of an uptickin clients, especially kid
clients, who come in with anADHD diagnosis or an autism
diagnosis and then noticing someof the struggles that they
(17:53):
might be having here or there.
One of the cool stories that wehave is a little girl who is
struggling to brush her teeth.
That we have is a little girlwho is struggling to brush her
teeth, and so mom would comeinto parent consults with the
child therapist and talk aboutthis battle of trying to get her
child to brush her teeth.
And so the child therapist isreally trying to help mom with
empathy and really trying tohelp mom stay in a really calm
(18:14):
place to address the behavior inthe moment.
But then they refer tooccupational therapy and it's
really the occupationaltherapist that was able to
assess and recognize that therewas a sensitivity to the texture
or the sensation of thebristles on the child's teeth.
Because of the neurodivergentthat she had, it really became a
trigger.
(18:35):
The feeling, just the sensationof the toothbrush on her teeth
was a trigger that kind of ledto this.
And so the occupationaltherapist was not only able to
give mom that information, whichjust sort of helps obviously to
understand what's going on inthat moment, but then they
really start practicing onfinding different kinds of
toothbrushes that might beavailable or helping the kid.
You know, helping the kidunderstand what's going on in
(18:57):
that moment and just helping thechild understand.
This is why this feels this wayto you and in understanding
that it sort of even decreasedthe reaction from the child
because they knew what this was.
They knew it wasn't a threat,for example, they knew it wasn't
that I'm getting hurt for real.
It just doesn't feel good to me, right.
And then started practicing thebehavior over and over, and so
(19:20):
again the occupational therapistsort of becomes the one,
especially at Genesis, where wecan get a lot more practice on
developing the skill ordeveloping the new technique to
support the client.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
I think that's a great example because it's
something so specific and italso illustrates how personal
this is, how very individualizedthese, just these little tiny
things can be that can affect areally big part of our lives.
And in this case it's not justabout brushing your teeth and
(19:55):
oral health and that kind ofstuff.
It was kind of diminishing therelationship between the parent
and the child, exactly.
And then there's another typeof intervention for that right.
Would that help?
Would it help to bring themcloser together, to use
attachment therapy?
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Absolutely Right, and I think what you're saying
there and what we're reallyproud of at Genesis is the
ability to do both at the sametime right, in one place In one
place, right, and so sometimeson the same day, most of do both
at the same time, right.
In one place In one place, right, and so sometimes on the same
day, most of the time on thesame day, we go from one or the
other, or the OT and thecounselor can sit in the session
together, right, right.
And so it really is thiswraparound care of saying, okay,
(20:35):
here's the whole issue, here'sthe whole understanding of
what's going on and the wholeimpact that it's having on the
mother, on the child, on theirrelationship, on the dynamics in
the house, on things like thisright and being able to do all
of it together just becomes themost effective way to quickly
help them change something forthe better and just feel better,
(20:56):
to be honest with you.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
And it sounds like a process or a journey of
discovery in a lot of ways,because you're learning things
about yourself, You're learningthings about your child and
about your relationship, andthere are also there are good
things to discover.
There are challenging things todiscover and there are ways to
work through anything that'sproblematic at.
(21:17):
Genesis.
Let's talk about safetyplanning.
How is that important ordifferent for people who are
neurodivergent?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
So you know again, I always think it's important for
people to understand that safetyplanning in and of itself is
meant to be customized to theclient that's in front of you,
right.
So to safety plan means to findout what the person is already
doing to keep themselves safeand then to potentially make
some suggestions here or thereto help them increase that
safety or that awareness ofthings that they could do Right,
(21:48):
and so that just adds veryeasily to what you and I've been
saying is all we're adding inis understanding this person
holistically, so not just theabuse that they're experiencing,
but how do they experience theabuse, what exact tactics are
being used?
So, for example, if we have aclient who has is neurodivergent
let's say, an example of thatmay be somebody, an adult, with
(22:10):
ADHD, and maybe this is a personwho has some struggle
remembering appointments orremembering things, or some
disorganization in their home orsomething like that Right,
right, things or somedisorganization in their home or
something like that right Right.
This could be something thatthe abuser uses against the
client, constantly telling herthat she's crazy or that she's
not responsible or that she'snot good enough.
(22:30):
So her neurodivergency canactually become the tactic in
which he's using against her.
So in safety planning we couldalso in me knowing that these
are the types of thingsspecifically that he's saying to
her or that he's using againsther.
Then I can sort of provideeducation about those things.
I can help her with ways totake care of herself in those
(22:52):
moments.
Those might be specific thingslike if you're having a hard
time remembering where your keysare and you frequently need to
leave that, or at any point youwanna be able to leave the house
quickly, let's have adesignated place where your keys
are.
Let's have a.
Let's get you a backup key thatwe could hide somewhere so that
if you need to leave, right,and that just always lives in
(23:13):
this place.
So we're able to kind ofconsider some of these things.
But we're also able to do whatwe call emotional safety
planning, and emotional safetyplanning is the kind of how do I
take care of myself emotionallyin this very unsafe environment
?
So when he's saying thesethings about her and he's
pointing to the fact that shedid actually miss this
appointment and forget aboutthis thing, right, how do we
(23:34):
help her sort of?
Maybe have a mantra in her heador have my voice in her head
talking to her, or the educationthat I've given her, that she
can sort of tell herself, whichis, yes, this is a symptom of
ADHD and she has aneurodivergent experience here,
but it doesn't mean she's crazy,it doesn't mean she's bad, it
doesn't mean she's irresponsible, right, and so it can, kind of.
(23:58):
The goal is to sort ofcounteract the abuse that she's
experiencing in that momentright.
Whenever we talk about safety, Ithink it's important that we
always say that safety planningis not meant to make the abuser
stop being abusive, because shecan't do that.
She can't make him stop beingabusive, right, but what it is
is how can we increase hersafety?
And so that's physical, butlike we're talking about
(24:20):
increase her emotional safety aswell and understanding who she
is as a human and how sheexperiences things, that she's
not perfect, that we all haveflaws.
We all have things that we'regood at and things that are
areas of growth, right, orlimitations, or we're not
supposed to say weakness, right,but you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
I have many areas of growth, we can do a whole
podcast online.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
So it is a way to help her emotionally safety plan
or have a plan in place to takecare of herself emotionally
through this too.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
I hadn't really thought much about emotional
safety planning before you justbrought it up, and it makes so
much sense because I can see how, just in that one example
having a mantra in your headthat reduces the voices telling
you what an awful person you arewhen this individual is abusing
you and telling you awfulthings about yourself you don't
(25:11):
have to believe them Absolutely.
There's alternatives there, andI would have to guess too that
that type of tool will alsoreduce anxiety.
If you have anxiety as aresponse to abusive behaviors,
patterns, words coming at you,you know.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
It can also help with the feelings of helplessness or
hopelessness.
It can reduce how hopeless Ifeel, so that you know I stay
more connected to you.
Know, maybe there's hope thatthings could be different.
Right, I stay more connected toyou.
Know, maybe there's hope thatthings could be different, right
, you know, abusers are justabsolutely experts on picking up
on something that has a kernelof truth to it and then
gaslighting it to make it biggerthan it actually is.
(25:52):
And again, the truth is, ashumans none of us are perfect.
All of us have things that westruggle in.
If I have, you know, if I'm onthe autism spectrum, or if I
have ADHD, or if I have alearning disability, those just
become more direct targets thathe can use.
That might be factually true,right, he can point to that and
I can't really argue about it.
I know it's true.
(26:12):
And so it's women who havethese things and he uses them as
a verbal or emotional abusetactic.
They're more likely to believethem, or women in general are
more likely to believegaslighting when they're like.
But it is true.
There's this fact to it, right?
But it's not all true.
The fact that you have thisdiagnosis or this struggle right
(26:33):
may be true, but it doesn'tmean that you're crazy or you're
bad, or you can't do the thingsthat he says that you can't do,
or you don't deserve to be safe, or that you are in any way
creating the abuse that ishappening to you.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
I think what you're saying, Jordan, has a lot to do
with how abusive partners orpeople pick up on
vulnerabilities in theirintended victims and then
exploit them.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
You know, there's nothing wrong with a woman who
is abused.
She didn't ask for it, shedidn't seek it out, she didn't
pick an abusive person.
But what we do know is thatabusers actually do prey upon
women, that they believe thatthey could, that they could take
advantage of Right, and there'sso many reasons to be able to
do that.
(27:20):
But a lot of times what they'relooking for are areas of
vulnerability, and we all haveareas of vulnerability.
Again we all have things that wemight struggle with.
But, for example, if I'm asingle mom, an abuser might
really pick up on that and comein and say that that's the area
that he's going to come in likea like the helper who's going to
help me with my kids.
Maybe he comes in financially tohelp them, maybe he's so nice
(27:41):
to them and they love him, andso that's sort of the area that
he took advantage of and reallygot me connected to him quickly
and therefore more open for himto take advantage and prey upon.
Right when we're talking aboutneurodiversity or mental health
stuff especially, that'sabsolutely an area of
vulnerability that is oftentaken advantage of or just
(28:02):
abused to take control oversomebody.
So maybe somebody'sneurodiversity is ADHD and again
it's little symptoms here orthere, right, but he can use
them to put her down and makeher feel bad about somebody,
about themselves.
Maybe it's a learningdisability that's pretty severe
or a mental health disorder thatcan have some pretty severe
(28:24):
symptoms to them, and so thisperson really does need support
and so that becomes areas thatshe's dependent upon him and
then he can use that to takeadvantage and prey upon her and
maintain control over her.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
And it's just another type of medical abuse, right?
Exactly what it is.
So medical abuse, or moreclearly, depriving someone of
medical attention or treatmentas a way to abuse that person,
is often prevalent when childrenexhibit neurodivergent
behaviors.
So how does that form ofmedical abuse and the one you
mentioned compound theexperience of trauma and also
(29:00):
contribute to child development?
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Well, it's just the isolation.
So isolation is probably one ofthe first experiences of
domestic violence that a victimwill go through, because you
can't really control somebodyuntil you cut off their ability
to get help from other people.
Right, and since control, powerand control is the goal, it's
one of the first things thatthey start to do.
And so what we see medicalabuse oftentimes says is
(29:24):
isolating her from support fromother agencies or practitioners
or just spaces that would beable to provide her those skills
or resources or ways ofindependently caring for herself
.
His goal is to have herdependent on him so he can
maintain control, and so a lotof times he will cut off her
ability to get that, that extrahelp or that extra resources,
(29:48):
even for her children.
So we've been seeing it a lothere lately with the kids.
To be honest with you, maria,we've had several.
This conversation has kind ofcome up a couple of times
between you and me because ofsome kiddos who have been within
our shelter program and we'vehad several kids where the
neurodivergent behavior isreally obvious but they've never
been diagnosed and they're atan age in which it really could
(30:09):
have been diagnosed but mom wasnot able to take the child to
the pediatrician to be seen.
And so in in, because it bejust to be clear, cause the
abusive, because the abuserwouldn't allow it, yeah.
Um, there was, you know, uh,justifications about finances.
There were reasons here andinsurance issues and things.
But really, when we talked tothe mom, and we really get down
(30:31):
to it, um, the abuser was juststopping her from getting the
the, the child, seen by apediatrician at all times, right
, um, and so you know whether ornot that's because the abuser
was afraid that somebody wouldtell the pediatrician that the
abuse was going on.
And so there he, for he'strying to cut off that ability
to outcry.
Or the abuser literally didn'twant the child to get support
(30:55):
for the neurodivergent behavior.
It doesn't necessarily matter.
The point is, is that the kidis not being, their needs are
not being met, so that the needsof the abuser could be met
first and foremost.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Right, excellent point.
That is exactly the point ofbringing that up and giving
everyone the perspective Nowfrom mom's position in all of
that.
How can they recognize thesigns of medical abuse by the
abusive partner?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
So really what we're talking about when we say
medical abuse is that notallowing for your medical needs
to be met, right, and so itcould be again, the child's sick
but I can't take them to thedoctor, or the child needs the
medicine but he won't give methe finances.
I don't have access to thefinances to pay for the medicine
, right.
And so it could be that thechild needs ongoing medical
(31:48):
support, like appointments thatare happening, and so maybe the
abuser disrupts mom's ability totake the child to those
appointments Last minutetransportation, he takes the car
and she can't get there.
Or he refuses to watch theother kids, and so she can't
take the child because the onekid she's got to watch the other
kids and just disrupting theability to go to these ongoing
appointments and get the supportand care that's needed.
(32:12):
So, unfortunately, in sort ofthe medical world or the access
to different services forneurodiversity, you have to have
a formal diagnosis to then getthe appointments right, and so
what we see a lot of times isjust dad or the abuser
disrupting mom's ability to takethe kid to be seen, to be
(32:33):
diagnosed, and so thereforeshe's not being offered any
supportive services until we canget that diagnosis, and so
again, it's cutting off thetreatment, it's cutting off the
medicine, it's cutting off evenjust the diagnosis, to get
started.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Yeah, and that's so much I mean to your point.
Like that definitely shrinksthe world and the possibilities
for this mom and her child uh tountil she can get to a place
like Genesis and really get someadvocacy and other Well and in
my experience with these moms,it leaves them feeling so lonely
, like so lonely, and soisolated and helpless.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
They're doing absolutely everything they can
to support their child and helptheir child and so they very
much feel like they're the onlyone who can help their child.
So I can't go get a job, I gotto stay with my kid.
I can't be a way if I'm theonly one who can care for my, my
child, and so the ability towork on any other goals or to
become independent in certainareas, it's just.
(33:32):
It just all feels like reallybig barriers because she is so
focused, understandably, on theneeds of her child and meeting
those needs.
If we can get her connected toGenesis or somebody like Genesis
and get her more supportivepeople around her, more helpers
around her, then the hope isthat she can recognize that
she's not alone, that there areother people that can really
(33:54):
help for her child, care for herchild, love her child, and then
it's less of a barrier that shefeels too in being able to work
on other things that she mightwant to work on.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Any resources or websites that moms could go to
to get more information orsupport.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
There's a lot of good information online, right.
I think it's really excitingthe way the conversation about
neurodiversity, neurodivergentbrains, is.
The information is really cool.
So if you really just Googlethose, you can get some really
big websites.
The CDC actually has somereally cool information that's
really been vetted and reallyclear.
(34:29):
Genesis has a blog that we'vedone and some OT information
that we have on our website.
But you know, interesting enough, where I have found a lot of
really cool information is onreels on TikTok, so you can
actually go on TikTok and follow.
There's like ADHD TikTok andthere's autism TikTok and
(34:50):
there's there's a lot of reallysmart people talking about
different things.
That just really helps todevelop awareness of what the
different behaviors might looklike or why they might be
happening, and there's a lot ofcool interventions or a lot of
things you want to use.
Now I'm talking about socialmedia, so you got to be careful,
right, because there's a lot ofstuff.
So I would really encouragepeople to not necessarily to
(35:11):
really look at who they'rewatching on TikTok.
Does this person have abackground in education?
That would really lend to themspeaking on these things, but
even just seeing, for example,reels of people who you know,
for example, have ADHD.
Talking about their struggles,a lot of people are feeling
really connected and reallyheard and not so different in a
(35:35):
bad way.
They're experiencing a lot ofunderstanding for themselves and
for their child through these,so I think that's a really cool
resource to use too.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
It really can be, and it's accessible to many people.
Millions, billions of people.
How many people on YouTube?
A lot of people on TikTok.
There's a lot of videos too,and just one disclaimer on all
of that is none of this is adiagnosis, right, right?
Nothing you find on TikTokshould ever be used as a
diagnosis.
Nothing that we talked abouthere today should be considered
(36:05):
a means to a diagnosis.
But if you're curious aboutneurodiversity and
neurodivergent signs andsymptoms, you can look it up,
and you can always call Genesisif you experience domestic
violence.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Absolutely.
And again, I just think, ifanything, if somebody were to
hear one thing today, I wouldreally hope that they would hear
that there's nothing wrong withthem it's not, you know, even
if they're struggling in certainways right.
But it may be something thatthey need specific support in,
somebody who can sit in front ofthem and help them work through
their situation, specific tohow they're experiencing their
(36:43):
situation and how they whatsymptoms they have and get
really, really clear in who theyare.
And again, that holistic word,right, I know that's what
Genesis aims to do at all times,and so I think that's the
encouragement there too, thatthere's not anything wrong with
you, but you might need someadditional or specific support
and you deserve that.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Totally agree, and if I could have anyone here just
one thing today, it would bethat you're not alone and we're
here for you.
Jordan, good to be with you.
Thanks for having me again,Maria.
Thank you.
Genesis Women's Shelter andSupport exists to give women in
abusive situations a way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
(37:25):
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence, and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
domestic violence.
You can learn more atgenesisshelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
(37:45):
Genesis Women's Shelter, and onX at Genesis Shelter.
The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, seven
days a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.
Neurodivergent is an emergent term that refers very
generally to someone whose brainprocesses information in a way
that is not typical of mostindividuals.
When people who areneurodivergent experience
domestic violence, specificconsiderations must be made
regarding their care andtreatment.
Today we dive into thefascinating field of domestic
(00:21):
violence services for ourneurodivergent friends and how
Genesis is making great stridesin handling them with care.
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis the podcast.
We welcome back Jordan Lawsonto the podcast in her first but
(00:41):
not last appearance in seasonfour of the show as, as an
expert with deep learning aboutclinical interventions for
domestic abuse survivors, Jordanpossesses more than a decade of
experience serving women andchildren who have suffered
trauma at the hands of anabusive partner or parent.
Jordan is the chief residentialofficer of Genesis, managing
all onsite housing services, aswell as Genesis Advocacy Program
(01:05):
, Child Care, Preschool and K-6Education.
Hi Jordan, Welcome back.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Thanks Marie, it's good to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Since Genesis began the occupational therapy program
several years ago, we've seenan influx of clients, more
specifically children, who haveexhibited neurodivergent traits,
and these children are, to us,very special because they are
witnesses of horrific crimes,crimes committed by a person
that they most likely love,despite him hurting someone else
(01:32):
who they love.
In our case, this is truly whendad hurts mom, and research
tells us that upwards of 50% ofthese children have themselves
been abused by their parent,again typically dad, which
compounds their trauma.
Combine all of that with anytypes of alternative brain
processing function and we havea recipe for a very special
situation that plays out in veryindividual ways.
(01:54):
So enter the termneurodivergent Now.
Neurodivergent is kind of acatch-all.
It groups together people whosecircumstances require perhaps a
diagnosis and some uniqueapproaches for services.
And, jordan, you and I talkabout that term very often when
we're just talking aboutservices at Genesis and clients
(02:17):
and specific stories of peoplethat we've worked with at the
organization, of people thatwe've worked with at the
organization.
So I'd love to start there andget a working definition for
this conversation ofneurodivergent.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, so neurodiversity, neurodivergent
coming from the termneurodiversity, it's kind of a
new term and it's one that not alot of people are really sure
exactly how to use.
So I think it's important tounderstand that the umbrella
term is neurodiversity andneurodiversity just speaks to
the fact of honoring that, ashumans, all of our brains sort
(02:53):
of function differently.
We think about thingsdifferently, we process
information differently, weprocess and experience
situations differently, have ourdifferent perspectives, right?
So neurodiversity is just sortof this broad term that honors
those differences.
Right, when we get toneurodivergent, we're talking
about somebody whose brain maybeis processing information
(03:15):
differently, maybe on a levelthat could be diagnosed like
something like ADHD or autismspectrum disorder.
Like ADHD or autism spectrumdisorder, maybe even a learning
disability, it could be ananxiety disorder, bipolar
disorder, an OCD disorder, right?
Yes, when you get to these kindof diagnosable areas or another
(03:36):
way to think aboutneurodivergent is a way in which
the specific ways that thisperson's brain functions
differently affects the brainmore impactful, right?
So it has a greater impact ontheir functioning or in their
ability to really be understoodin social situations or really
be as successful as theyabsolutely can be in different
(04:00):
environments.
The truth is there's nothingwrong or bad about any of these,
right?
The great thing about the termneurodiversity is there's
nothing wrong or bad about anyof these, right.
The great thing about the termneurodiversity is it's really
promoting inclusivity andempathy and understanding for
these differences, that they'renot wrong, they're not bad
differences, they're justdifferent.
And so, because thesedifferences are impactful on
functioning, sometimes they mayneed to be managed or to be
(04:24):
supported differently.
So, for example, if your childis exhibiting signs of
developmental delays or notbeing on target with certain
milestones, maybe learningdisabilities, maybe it is
explosive behavior or behaviorthat just feels different from
the other kids that you've seenIn my experience, a lot of moms
(04:46):
sort of have this feeling thatsomething might be there, and
those would be the things thatwe would encourage you to bring
to your counselor or to yourphysician or somebody and say,
hey, this thing's happening,because it could be a sign of
neurodivergent behavior.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I think you make some really important distinctions
there.
I appreciate the clarificationaround the terms neurodiversity,
neurodivergent.
What are the signs of beingneurodivergent and how can
domestic violence providersrecognize them?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
A lot of them.
You know a lot of these areseen in childhood, but what we
understand is that, because weare somewhat new to recognizing
these things or talking aboutthem, there's a lot of adults
that are starting to notice thatsome of the struggles that
they've had, or some of theunique things that they thought,
oh, I was the only one who doesthis thing or thinks this way
or notices it right, they'renoticing the impact of these and
(05:40):
so they're starting to bring itto their counselor.
They're starting to bring it upin conversations with helpers,
like a Genesis.
So we have a lot of clients whowill come in already reporting
the divergence that they may beexperiencing.
So they may be reportingstruggling with memory loss or
struggling to sort of recallthings, starting, you know, as a
mom struggling to have a to-dolist that's 17,000 things long
(06:04):
and I keep forgetting to do thisthing, or you know things like
that that they'll really bringto us, right, of course.
Then moms are bringing stufffor their kids too.
They may be talking aboutlearning disabilities that are
being seen as their child isstarting to learn in school, you
know, trying to learn how toread or trying to learn how to
do different things.
They might be starting to seesome struggle there, right?
(06:25):
A lot of our moms will noticenot just the behavior but the
reaction to the struggle, and soa lot of our kiddos will become
really dysregulated because ofthe way in which they're
struggling or they're not beingsupported or they're not being
helped in that moment, and sothat might become an explosive
sort of expression of thatstruggle.
(06:46):
So I'm really frustratedbecause I know what I want, but
you're not really understandingwhat I want and not giving me
what I want.
And so now I'm having thisexplosive sort of expression of
that, and so a lot of moms willcome talking about that, the
explosions, the expressions offrustration or anger.
And it's through talking aboutwhat came before the explosion
(07:08):
that we can start to identify,maybe a sensitivity to sensory
input.
So you were trying to put yourkiddos clothes on and they had a
full blown fit.
Well, maybe it's a sensitivityto the texture of the clothes,
right?
Or there's just.
You know, again, one of thethings I think we're both trying
to do this conversation is tobe really broad, or there's just
.
You know, again, one of thethings I think we're both trying
to do this conversation is tobe really broad, because there's
just so many things that couldbe neurodivergent.
(07:31):
Right, there's a lot ofdifferent examples, but what we
are noticing at Genesis is momscoming to us sort of already
having awareness that this mightbe something.
And so then, in being able toreally help moms talk it through
, when did this start?
What usually comes before?
Do you notice anything inparticular that sets your kid
(07:53):
off every single time?
Right Then, because moms areexperts on their kids, they can
really help us identify wherethat divergency might be.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
So, when working with children, like we do at Genesis
, why is knowing all of thisreally important?
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Well, you know.
So one of the things that webelieve strongly at Genesis is
that trauma-informed approach.
Right, trauma-informed approachmeans being considerate and
aware at all times.
How has the situation or thethings that have happened to a
client impacted the client?
And so it's this desire to beholistically understanding of a
(08:29):
client not just what are theirsymptoms or, but also what's
happened, what's their history,what's their likes, what their
dislikes and so this very muchgoes in line with that, that if
we're going to trulyholistically understand the
client in front of us we want tobe aware of and open to.
If somebody who isneurodivergent is coming in for
services, exactly how do theyneed us to support them, right?
(08:53):
Do they have a sensitivity tosensory input and so they're
going to be really affected bynoise in the lobby?
Well, we could arrange for themto come at a time and be able
to come into their appointmentwhere they have less time in the
lobby, because we know that,right Is it that occupational
(09:23):
therapy could help mom with andtrying to help her kid get
dressed when he keeps havingthese explosive things is just
the straw that is breaking herback, right?
So if we can support herholistically by having a
counselor talk to her about theabuse and the trauma and also
somebody help her with thisissue with her kid, then it
becomes this wraparound caretruly.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
How do all those types of things impact life at
home when a family isexperiencing domestic violence?
Because I would think thatcould create some volatility.
You know, the child won't brushtheir teeth or they're having a
tantrum because of it andthings start to spiral out of
control and that's at times.
(10:04):
It's a typical child behaviorto have a tantrum.
They're overloaded, they can'ttake anymore and they're just
not brushing their teeth tonight.
But I also know that that canset off an abuser.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, I think we've really seen it in sort of two
different ways, if you will Onebeing the client feeling like
maybe the specific needs of herchildren are a barrier to her
being able to leave, because shedoesn't feel like she'll be
able to support them fully byherself or she doesn't know what
resources are out there to beable to go.
(10:36):
So the idea of leaving andgoing to a safe place is that
much more overwhelming becauseof the special needs that her
children might have.
And then I think on the otherside, just like you were saying,
it does become this sort ofarea of potential.
I want to be really careful herebecause of course we know that
abuse is not somebody justgetting angry or triggered and
(10:58):
therefore choosing to hurtsomebody, to scream at them or
yell at them or hurt them, right.
So an abuser may get frustratedover a kid's tantrum and may
start screaming and yelling, butwe really understand that the
line in which it becomes abusiveis not just because the abuser
was frustrated, not just becausethe kid having a tantrum set
(11:18):
them off, but it's because theabuser really believes that he
has the right to dominate thehouse.
He has the right to telleverybody in the house what to
do and everybody should justjump to and get that done,
whereas a child withneurodivergency may, who is
neurodivergent may struggle tojump in line and do the thing
that's being told, and so thatit's that dominance that becomes
(11:41):
the weapon against the clientor the child.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Yeah, I can see it.
I mean, there are patterns ofbehavior that support exactly
what you're saying, and childrenof all walks of life are gonna
struggle staying in line whensomeone's got that level of
control over them.
And then, if you add inneurodiversity, it just
compounds the issue.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Right, and we recognize, we actually recognize
post-traumatic stress disorderas neurodivergent, right Like,
because PTSD is a neurologicalimpact on the brain because the
amygdala, the kind of threatcenter of the brain, is being
overworked, being overstimulated, it becomes more sensitive and
therefore is living in thisstate of survival or protection,
(12:32):
even in times like that, maynot be directly threatening.
So, for example, somebody who, akid, who lives in an abusive
home, their brain is going to beon guard for threat all day
long while they're in that home.
Well, when they go to school,the idea that we would like is
that when they go to school,they feel safe and so their
(12:52):
brain calms down and it's okay.
But the truth is, the moreoften that the brain is exposed
to threat, the more likely it isto just live in this state of
threat, and so they're living inthat state while in school as
well.
And so PTSD that's what we callPTSD this state, this living in
a state of you know, fight,flight or freeze right,
(13:12):
experiencing these reallyintense reminders of the trauma,
things like that.
So PTSD can be an example ofneurodivergency, because it
means that it's impacting theway in which the brain is
functioning differently, is nowaffecting the child's ability to
function in school.
They can't remember the mathlesson because their brain is so
(13:34):
focused on survival PTSD can beshort-term right Because it's
treatable.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
It is treatable, yes, and correctable.
It is correctable.
So I could have PTSD cominginto Genesis and be treated with
the right treatment plan for meclinical counseling, emdr or
other therapies and then nolonger be neurodivergent at the
end of it.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
So the idea is that PTSD is an example, yes, of a
treatable neurological impact oftrauma, right, and so the idea
is that the symptoms of PTSD arewhat's causing the
neurodiversity and so then, whenthat is deescalated right or
decreased, relieved right, ifsomebody gets the treatment and
(14:20):
their symptoms decrease, then,yes, the ability for their brain
to sort of function moretypically becomes greater.
We know that, you know, atGenesis we use evidence-based
treatments for PTSD, for example, and so we know that those are
highly effective in reducing thesymptoms.
Now, how effective those are for, you know, after she leaves
(14:42):
Genesis and does she no longerexperience any symptoms, or it's
really kind of specific to the,the client, her situation, the
trauma history that she's gonethrough.
But the idea, um, I think forfor our conversation of PTSD as
an example of experiencingneurodivergent or
neurodivergency, is that it'sthat it is something that can be
(15:05):
supported, that it's somethingthat you can get support from,
from a clinician that you canget that a client could build
skills to sort of manage howthat is.
And so if that's something thatthey learn and have to do and
manage their reactions or theirsymptoms for a short bit of time
, that's obviously beneficial.
But if it's skills that theylearn to manage these symptoms
(15:28):
because they may continue for along term, then what we really
appreciate about that is theidea that, even when they're no
longer coming to Genesis on aweekly basis, we've been able to
help them with those skills tobe able to carry forward.
That would benefit them inbeing able to recognize what
their needs are in certain typesof situations where
(15:49):
neurodivergency might be a thingfor them.
Right, they know when thesemight be a time for them.
They know what skills theycould use or coping strategies
they might have to take care ofthemselves at those times, and
so they can sort ofindependently and in an
empowered way, right, take careof themselves on whatever level
they might be experiencing thesesymptoms or these kind of
(16:12):
different things.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Just a few minutes ago in our conversation, you
mentioned occupational therapy,and Genesis is one of the only
domestic violence agencies inthe nation that offers
occupational therapy fordomestic violence survivors.
How does OT or occupationaltherapy help both kids and
adults who are survivors andneurodivergent?
Speaker 2 (16:32):
So the you know, in all transparency, I am a
licensed professional counselorand so I got into this field to
do counseling and I was actuallyin this work for several years
before I really I don't evenwant to admit how long I'd been
doing this work before I reallylearned what occupational
therapy is, and when I learnedit I just became so aware of how
(16:52):
well it partnered with what Iwas doing with my clients.
But it's like the next step ofwhat I wasn't able to do, and
what I mean by that is, in acounseling appointment, my
clients gain insight andawareness, and so they become.
They might become more, um,like we were talking about, more
aware of what their symptomsare, their diversity is, and
they might become more awareinto the moments that they need
(17:15):
skills, um, but occupationaltherapy is the one, the, the,
the therapist, who can reallycome in and help them develop
those skills, help them practicethose skills, really get into
the very real life.
We have seen sort of an uptickin clients, especially kid
clients, who come in with anADHD diagnosis or an autism
diagnosis and then noticing someof the struggles that they
(17:53):
might be having here or there.
One of the cool stories that wehave is a little girl who is
struggling to brush her teeth.
That we have is a little girlwho is struggling to brush her
teeth, and so mom would comeinto parent consults with the
child therapist and talk aboutthis battle of trying to get her
child to brush her teeth.
And so the child therapist isreally trying to help mom with
empathy and really trying tohelp mom stay in a really calm
(18:14):
place to address the behavior inthe moment.
But then they refer tooccupational therapy and it's
really the occupationaltherapist that was able to
assess and recognize that therewas a sensitivity to the texture
or the sensation of thebristles on the child's teeth.
Because of the neurodivergentthat she had, it really became a
trigger.
(18:35):
The feeling, just the sensationof the toothbrush on her teeth
was a trigger that kind of ledto this.
And so the occupationaltherapist was not only able to
give mom that information, whichjust sort of helps obviously to
understand what's going on inthat moment, but then they
really start practicing onfinding different kinds of
toothbrushes that might beavailable or helping the kid.
You know, helping the kidunderstand what's going on in
(18:57):
that moment and just helping thechild understand.
This is why this feels this wayto you and in understanding
that it sort of even decreasedthe reaction from the child
because they knew what this was.
They knew it wasn't a threat,for example, they knew it wasn't
that I'm getting hurt for real.
It just doesn't feel good to me, right.
And then started practicing thebehavior over and over, and so
(19:20):
again the occupational therapistsort of becomes the one,
especially at Genesis, where wecan get a lot more practice on
developing the skill ordeveloping the new technique to
support the client.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
I think that's a great example because it's
something so specific and italso illustrates how personal
this is, how very individualizedthese, just these little tiny
things can be that can affect areally big part of our lives.
And in this case it's not justabout brushing your teeth and
(19:55):
oral health and that kind ofstuff.
It was kind of diminishing therelationship between the parent
and the child, exactly.
And then there's another typeof intervention for that right.
Would that help?
Would it help to bring themcloser together, to use
attachment therapy?
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Absolutely Right, and I think what you're saying
there and what we're reallyproud of at Genesis is the
ability to do both at the sametime right, in one place In one
place, right, and so sometimeson the same day, most of do both
at the same time, right.
In one place In one place, right, and so sometimes on the same
day, most of the time on thesame day, we go from one or the
other, or the OT and thecounselor can sit in the session
together, right, right.
And so it really is thiswraparound care of saying, okay,
(20:35):
here's the whole issue, here'sthe whole understanding of
what's going on and the wholeimpact that it's having on the
mother, on the child, on theirrelationship, on the dynamics in
the house, on things like thisright and being able to do all
of it together just becomes themost effective way to quickly
help them change something forthe better and just feel better,
(20:56):
to be honest with you.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
And it sounds like a process or a journey of
discovery in a lot of ways,because you're learning things
about yourself, You're learningthings about your child and
about your relationship, andthere are also there are good
things to discover.
There are challenging things todiscover and there are ways to
work through anything that'sproblematic at.
(21:17):
Genesis.
Let's talk about safetyplanning.
How is that important ordifferent for people who are
neurodivergent?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
So you know again, I always think it's important for
people to understand that safetyplanning in and of itself is
meant to be customized to theclient that's in front of you,
right.
So to safety plan means to findout what the person is already
doing to keep themselves safeand then to potentially make
some suggestions here or thereto help them increase that
safety or that awareness ofthings that they could do Right,
(21:48):
and so that just adds veryeasily to what you and I've been
saying is all we're adding inis understanding this person
holistically, so not just theabuse that they're experiencing,
but how do they experience theabuse, what exact tactics are
being used?
So, for example, if we have aclient who has is neurodivergent
let's say, an example of thatmay be somebody, an adult, with
(22:10):
ADHD, and maybe this is a personwho has some struggle
remembering appointments orremembering things, or some
disorganization in their home orsomething like that Right,
right, things or somedisorganization in their home or
something like that right Right.
This could be something thatthe abuser uses against the
client, constantly telling herthat she's crazy or that she's
not responsible or that she'snot good enough.
(22:30):
So her neurodivergency canactually become the tactic in
which he's using against her.
So in safety planning we couldalso in me knowing that these
are the types of thingsspecifically that he's saying to
her or that he's using againsther.
Then I can sort of provideeducation about those things.
I can help her with ways totake care of herself in those
(22:52):
moments.
Those might be specific thingslike if you're having a hard
time remembering where your keysare and you frequently need to
leave that, or at any point youwanna be able to leave the house
quickly, let's have adesignated place where your keys
are.
Let's have a.
Let's get you a backup key thatwe could hide somewhere so that
if you need to leave, right,and that just always lives in
(23:13):
this place.
So we're able to kind ofconsider some of these things.
But we're also able to do whatwe call emotional safety
planning, and emotional safetyplanning is the kind of how do I
take care of myself emotionallyin this very unsafe environment
?
So when he's saying thesethings about her and he's
pointing to the fact that shedid actually miss this
appointment and forget aboutthis thing, right, how do we
(23:34):
help her sort of?
Maybe have a mantra in her heador have my voice in her head
talking to her, or the educationthat I've given her, that she
can sort of tell herself, whichis, yes, this is a symptom of
ADHD and she has aneurodivergent experience here,
but it doesn't mean she's crazy,it doesn't mean she's bad, it
doesn't mean she's irresponsible, right, and so it can, kind of.
(23:58):
The goal is to sort ofcounteract the abuse that she's
experiencing in that momentright.
Whenever we talk about safety, Ithink it's important that we
always say that safety planningis not meant to make the abuser
stop being abusive, because shecan't do that.
She can't make him stop beingabusive, right, but what it is
is how can we increase hersafety?
And so that's physical, butlike we're talking about
(24:20):
increase her emotional safety aswell and understanding who she
is as a human and how sheexperiences things, that she's
not perfect, that we all haveflaws.
We all have things that we'regood at and things that are
areas of growth, right, orlimitations, or we're not
supposed to say weakness, right,but you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
I have many areas of growth, we can do a whole
podcast online.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
So it is a way to help her emotionally safety plan
or have a plan in place to takecare of herself emotionally
through this too.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
I hadn't really thought much about emotional
safety planning before you justbrought it up, and it makes so
much sense because I can see how, just in that one example
having a mantra in your headthat reduces the voices telling
you what an awful person you arewhen this individual is abusing
you and telling you awfulthings about yourself you don't
(25:11):
have to believe them Absolutely.
There's alternatives there, andI would have to guess too that
that type of tool will alsoreduce anxiety.
If you have anxiety as aresponse to abusive behaviors,
patterns, words coming at you,you know.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
It can also help with the feelings of helplessness or
hopelessness.
It can reduce how hopeless Ifeel, so that you know I stay
more connected to you.
Know, maybe there's hope thatthings could be different.
Right, I stay more connected toyou.
Know, maybe there's hope thatthings could be different, right
, you know, abusers are justabsolutely experts on picking up
on something that has a kernelof truth to it and then
gaslighting it to make it biggerthan it actually is.
(25:52):
And again, the truth is, ashumans none of us are perfect.
All of us have things that westruggle in.
If I have, you know, if I'm onthe autism spectrum, or if I
have ADHD, or if I have alearning disability, those just
become more direct targets thathe can use.
That might be factually true,right, he can point to that and
I can't really argue about it.
I know it's true.
(26:12):
And so it's women who havethese things and he uses them as
a verbal or emotional abusetactic.
They're more likely to believethem, or women in general are
more likely to believegaslighting when they're like.
But it is true.
There's this fact to it, right?
But it's not all true.
The fact that you have thisdiagnosis or this struggle right
(26:33):
may be true, but it doesn'tmean that you're crazy or you're
bad, or you can't do the thingsthat he says that you can't do,
or you don't deserve to be safe, or that you are in any way
creating the abuse that ishappening to you.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
I think what you're saying, Jordan, has a lot to do
with how abusive partners orpeople pick up on
vulnerabilities in theirintended victims and then
exploit them.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
You know, there's nothing wrong with a woman who
is abused.
She didn't ask for it, shedidn't seek it out, she didn't
pick an abusive person.
But what we do know is thatabusers actually do prey upon
women, that they believe thatthey could, that they could take
advantage of Right, and there'sso many reasons to be able to
do that.
(27:20):
But a lot of times what they'relooking for are areas of
vulnerability, and we all haveareas of vulnerability.
Again we all have things that wemight struggle with.
But, for example, if I'm asingle mom, an abuser might
really pick up on that and comein and say that that's the area
that he's going to come in likea like the helper who's going to
help me with my kids.
Maybe he comes in financially tohelp them, maybe he's so nice
(27:41):
to them and they love him, andso that's sort of the area that
he took advantage of and reallygot me connected to him quickly
and therefore more open for himto take advantage and prey upon.
Right when we're talking aboutneurodiversity or mental health
stuff especially, that'sabsolutely an area of
vulnerability that is oftentaken advantage of or just
(28:02):
abused to take control oversomebody.
So maybe somebody'sneurodiversity is ADHD and again
it's little symptoms here orthere, right, but he can use
them to put her down and makeher feel bad about somebody,
about themselves.
Maybe it's a learningdisability that's pretty severe
or a mental health disorder thatcan have some pretty severe
(28:24):
symptoms to them, and so thisperson really does need support
and so that becomes areas thatshe's dependent upon him and
then he can use that to takeadvantage and prey upon her and
maintain control over her.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
And it's just another type of medical abuse, right?
Exactly what it is.
So medical abuse, or moreclearly, depriving someone of
medical attention or treatmentas a way to abuse that person,
is often prevalent when childrenexhibit neurodivergent
behaviors.
So how does that form ofmedical abuse and the one you
mentioned compound theexperience of trauma and also
(29:00):
contribute to child development?
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Well, it's just the isolation.
So isolation is probably one ofthe first experiences of
domestic violence that a victimwill go through, because you
can't really control somebodyuntil you cut off their ability
to get help from other people.
Right, and since control, powerand control is the goal, it's
one of the first things thatthey start to do.
And so what we see medicalabuse oftentimes says is
(29:24):
isolating her from support fromother agencies or practitioners
or just spaces that would beable to provide her those skills
or resources or ways ofindependently caring for herself
.
His goal is to have herdependent on him so he can
maintain control, and so a lotof times he will cut off her
ability to get that, that extrahelp or that extra resources,
(29:48):
even for her children.
So we've been seeing it a lothere lately with the kids.
To be honest with you, maria,we've had several.
This conversation has kind ofcome up a couple of times
between you and me because ofsome kiddos who have been within
our shelter program and we'vehad several kids where the
neurodivergent behavior isreally obvious but they've never
been diagnosed and they're atan age in which it really could
(30:09):
have been diagnosed but mom wasnot able to take the child to
the pediatrician to be seen.
And so in in, because it bejust to be clear, cause the
abusive, because the abuserwouldn't allow it, yeah.
Um, there was, you know, uh,justifications about finances.
There were reasons here andinsurance issues and things.
But really, when we talked tothe mom, and we really get down
(30:31):
to it, um, the abuser was juststopping her from getting the
the, the child, seen by apediatrician at all times, right
, um, and so you know whether ornot that's because the abuser
was afraid that somebody wouldtell the pediatrician that the
abuse was going on.
And so there he, for he'strying to cut off that ability
to outcry.
Or the abuser literally didn'twant the child to get support
(30:55):
for the neurodivergent behavior.
It doesn't necessarily matter.
The point is, is that the kidis not being, their needs are
not being met, so that the needsof the abuser could be met
first and foremost.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Right, excellent point.
That is exactly the point ofbringing that up and giving
everyone the perspective Nowfrom mom's position in all of
that.
How can they recognize thesigns of medical abuse by the
abusive partner?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
So really what we're talking about when we say
medical abuse is that notallowing for your medical needs
to be met, right, and so itcould be again, the child's sick
but I can't take them to thedoctor, or the child needs the
medicine but he won't give methe finances.
I don't have access to thefinances to pay for the medicine
, right.
And so it could be that thechild needs ongoing medical
(31:48):
support, like appointments thatare happening, and so maybe the
abuser disrupts mom's ability totake the child to those
appointments Last minutetransportation, he takes the car
and she can't get there.
Or he refuses to watch theother kids, and so she can't
take the child because the onekid she's got to watch the other
kids and just disrupting theability to go to these ongoing
appointments and get the supportand care that's needed.
(32:12):
So, unfortunately, in sort ofthe medical world or the access
to different services forneurodiversity, you have to have
a formal diagnosis to then getthe appointments right, and so
what we see a lot of times isjust dad or the abuser
disrupting mom's ability to takethe kid to be seen, to be
(32:33):
diagnosed, and so thereforeshe's not being offered any
supportive services until we canget that diagnosis, and so
again, it's cutting off thetreatment, it's cutting off the
medicine, it's cutting off evenjust the diagnosis, to get
started.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Yeah, and that's so much I mean to your point.
Like that definitely shrinksthe world and the possibilities
for this mom and her child uh tountil she can get to a place
like Genesis and really get someadvocacy and other Well and in
my experience with these moms,it leaves them feeling so lonely
, like so lonely, and soisolated and helpless.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
They're doing absolutely everything they can
to support their child and helptheir child and so they very
much feel like they're the onlyone who can help their child.
So I can't go get a job, I gotto stay with my kid.
I can't be a way if I'm theonly one who can care for my, my
child, and so the ability towork on any other goals or to
become independent in certainareas, it's just.
(33:32):
It just all feels like reallybig barriers because she is so
focused, understandably, on theneeds of her child and meeting
those needs.
If we can get her connected toGenesis or somebody like Genesis
and get her more supportivepeople around her, more helpers
around her, then the hope isthat she can recognize that
she's not alone, that there areother people that can really
(33:54):
help for her child, care for herchild, love her child, and then
it's less of a barrier that shefeels too in being able to work
on other things that she mightwant to work on.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Any resources or websites that moms could go to
to get more information orsupport.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
There's a lot of good information online, right.
I think it's really excitingthe way the conversation about
neurodiversity, neurodivergentbrains, is.
The information is really cool.
So if you really just Googlethose, you can get some really
big websites.
The CDC actually has somereally cool information that's
really been vetted and reallyclear.
(34:29):
Genesis has a blog that we'vedone and some OT information
that we have on our website.
But you know, interesting enough, where I have found a lot of
really cool information is onreels on TikTok, so you can
actually go on TikTok and follow.
There's like ADHD TikTok andthere's autism TikTok and
(34:50):
there's there's a lot of reallysmart people talking about
different things.
That just really helps todevelop awareness of what the
different behaviors might looklike or why they might be
happening, and there's a lot ofcool interventions or a lot of
things you want to use.
Now I'm talking about socialmedia, so you got to be careful,
right, because there's a lot ofstuff.
So I would really encouragepeople to not necessarily to
(35:11):
really look at who they'rewatching on TikTok.
Does this person have abackground in education?
That would really lend to themspeaking on these things, but
even just seeing, for example,reels of people who you know,
for example, have ADHD.
Talking about their struggles,a lot of people are feeling
really connected and reallyheard and not so different in a
(35:35):
bad way.
They're experiencing a lot ofunderstanding for themselves and
for their child through these,so I think that's a really cool
resource to use too.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
It really can be, and it's accessible to many people.
Millions, billions of people.
How many people on YouTube?
A lot of people on TikTok.
There's a lot of videos too,and just one disclaimer on all
of that is none of this is adiagnosis, right, right?
Nothing you find on TikTokshould ever be used as a
diagnosis.
Nothing that we talked abouthere today should be considered
(36:05):
a means to a diagnosis.
But if you're curious aboutneurodiversity and
neurodivergent signs andsymptoms, you can look it up,
and you can always call Genesisif you experience domestic
violence.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Absolutely.
And again, I just think, ifanything, if somebody were to
hear one thing today, I wouldreally hope that they would hear
that there's nothing wrong withthem it's not, you know, even
if they're struggling in certainways right.
But it may be something thatthey need specific support in,
somebody who can sit in front ofthem and help them work through
their situation, specific tohow they're experiencing their
(36:43):
situation and how they whatsymptoms they have and get
really, really clear in who theyare.
And again, that holistic word,right, I know that's what
Genesis aims to do at all times,and so I think that's the
encouragement there too, thatthere's not anything wrong with
you, but you might need someadditional or specific support
and you deserve that.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Totally agree, and if I could have anyone here just
one thing today, it would bethat you're not alone and we're
here for you.
Jordan, good to be with you.
Thanks for having me again,Maria.
Thank you.
Genesis Women's Shelter andSupport exists to give women in
abusive situations a way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
(37:25):
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence, and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
domestic violence.
You can learn more atgenesisshelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
(37:45):
Genesis Women's Shelter, and onX at Genesis Shelter.
The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, seven
days a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.
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