June 30, 2025 • 39 mins
The battleground of family court has become a dangerous landscape for survivors of domestic violence and their children. When abusers wield the controversial theory of parental alienation syndrome as a weapon, protective parents often find themselves losing custody to the very people they're trying to escape.
Ruth Guerreiro, Chief Clinical Officer of Genesis Women's Shelter & Support, pulls back the curtain on this troubling dynamic, explaining how a scientifically disputed theory from the 1980s continues to influence family court decisions with devastating consequences. We explore how protective behaviors—teaching children to recognize danger, set boundaries, and seek help—are frequently mischaracterized as attempts to "alienate" children from an abusive parent.
The stakes couldn't be higher. Research shows children exposed to domestic violence face staggering long-term risks: they're 50 times more likely to abuse substances, 74 times more likely to commit violent crimes, and six times more likely to attempt suicide. When courts fail to recognize post-separation abuse tactics—using children as informants, undermining the protective parent's authority, or manipulating children psychologically—they inadvertently become accomplices in continued trauma.
But there is hope. Ms. Guerreiro shares powerful insights about effective interventions that help children heal, including attachment therapy, trauma processing, and teaching critical thinking skills about healthy relationships. She offers practical guidance for rebuilding connection and stability, from creating family traditions to implementing consistent boundaries that counter the chaos of abuse.
This episode challenges us to reconsider how we protect our most vulnerable citizens, advocating for family courts that prioritize children's safety above all else. Whether you're a survivor navigating custody issues, a professional working in family services, or simply concerned about child welfare, you'll come away with a deeper understanding of these complex dynamics and the tools needed to make a difference.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Family court has become a battleground, with the
youngest victims of domesticviolence paying the price most,
especially when false claims ofparental alienation are used to
sway judges into awardingcustody to abusive partners.
Here to break down where thesystem is failing our children
and our future is Ruth Guerrero,chief Clinical Officer of
Genesis Women's Shelter andSupport.
(00:20):
I'm Maria McMullin, and this isGenesis, the podcast and
support.
I'm Maria McMullin, and this isGenesis, the podcast.
Parental alienation and theresulting syndrome is a theory
first put forward by Dr RichardGardner in the 1980s.
The theory claims that parentalalienation syndrome is a
childhood disorder where a childdevelops an unjustified
(00:43):
campaign of denigration andrejection against one parent,
often as a result ofmanipulation and indoctrination
by the other parent, and is acircumstance most often
associated with custody disputeswhere domestic violence is
present.
While controversial, thistheory has often been wielded by
some experts to sway familycourt judges to side with an
(01:03):
abusive parent, most often thefather, on determining custody
of a child, thereby leaving theabused survivor typically their
mother with little or norecourse and forced to submit to
custody orders, having herchildren experience further
abuse and retaliation from anabusive father.
To challenge this theory, itspractice and to illuminate the
(01:23):
harm that befalls children dueto this false narrative.
We welcome Ruth Guerrero, chiefClinical Officer of Genesis
Women's Shelter and Support,back to the show.
Ruth, welcome back to the show.
Thanks, maria.
I'm happy to be with you and wehave a lot to unpack today, so
let's jump right in.
I opened the show with a briefand high-level overview of
parental alienation and parentalalienation syndrome, but it
(01:46):
would be helpful to understandmore about how this theory
developed and why it is stillaccepted.
So, to begin, and from aclinical perspective, what is
parental alienation and parentalalienation syndrome?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Parental alienation is when one parent is
manipulating a child to alignwith them and to be against the
second parent, when there's nonegative impact on the child to
have a relationship with thatsecond parent.
I think that's the importantpiece right.
There's no reason to alienatethe child from that parent.
(02:20):
And yet they're doing that.
If there is abuse happening tothe child or that the child is
witnessing abuse happening tothat primary parent, that
primary parent is actually doingsafety planning, meaning that
they are taking the stepsnecessary to help teach the
child how to reduce risk of harm, how to recognize when there's
(02:41):
harm happening right.
In society we expect parents todo safety planning.
In society we expect parents todo safety planning with their
kids.
We expect parents to teach themto look both ways before
crossing the street and to puton a seatbelt when you're in the
car and to recognize strangerdanger right or noticing, like
when, those grooming behaviorsof being able to recognize and
therefore look for help.
(03:02):
Ask a safe parent or a safeadult for help being able to
identify when there's danger.
When one parent is beingabusive to the child, it is the
responsibility of the otherparent to then do that safety
planning.
But unfortunately, abusivepartners and because we work at
Genesis and I'm talking about,you know we work with women who
(03:24):
are survivors and victims, andmen are usually the perpetrator.
So it's when these abusive menare using what they're calling
parental alienation against themom in court, which I know we're
going to talk about later.
Yeah, but that is when, like,it's a problem because there's
an actual reason, there's avalid reason why mom is not
(03:44):
alienating the children but ishelping to do safety planning.
So parental alienation syndromewas coined by the psychiatrist
Richard Gardner.
It's not listed in the DSM,which is the Diagnostic and
Statistical Manual for MentalDisorders, which is what we use
to be able to give a mentaldisorder a diagnosis.
It's not found in the ICD,which is what health
(04:06):
professionals use withinternational classification of
diseases.
It's not designated to be areal diagnosis or any type of
disorder.
Most mental healthprofessionals and domestic
violence advocates rejectparental alienation syndrome due
to its lack of scientificorigin.
Even the American PsychologicalAssociation found that there is
(04:26):
a significant absence of thedata to support parental
alienation syndrome.
But, like I mentioned,unfortunately, even though it's
not a real thing, abusers try touse it or misuse it in the
court system in an attempt tocause that emotional stress or
distress to the mom by makingthese false allegations when in
(04:47):
fact mom and children arenervous and scared.
Right, mom is scared for herchildren's safety when they are
spending time with their dad,and so just to?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
point back to the beginning, getting the
definition down.
It is an allegation that themother is alienating the
children from the father and menput that forward in family
court.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
to what To get custody right.
They want full custody, notbecause they want to be an
involved dad, but because theywant to abuse her further.
They want to have control overher and over the children.
And the real definition doesnot say dad or mom, it just says
you know one parent versus theother parent.
(05:29):
But for our conversation today,in sake of ease, instead of
having to continue saying he orshe and he and she, you know
being able to say the dad as theabuser and mom as the victim.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
I appreciate that.
I just wanted to make thatdistinction for listeners
because it'd be a little hard.
They can't see us.
You know we're just doing audioand we're kind of talking about
this in a theoretical way, butit is dad claiming that mom is
alienating the children from himand therefore he deserves to
have custody on those grounds.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Correct, and what he's going to point at or point
to is that she is telling thekids to you know, make sure that
when they're at dad's house,that they know how to call the
police and how to call 911 andhow to be able to keep
themselves safe.
Right to do that safetyplanning.
Or maybe he's saying thingslike safe, right to do that
safety planning.
Or maybe he's saying thingslike well, she doesn't let me
(06:18):
see them, or she doesn't everlet me be alone with them.
Well, that's because she knowsthat he is dangerous towards
them and she knows that shedoesn't trust how he's going to
parent and so her being able tohelp her kids stay safe by not
going with him, for her that's asafety plan.
But he will point to that incourt and say see, she's
alienating them from me.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Exactly so.
To kind of just build on thisconversation, a 2023 article
titled Parental Alienation aDisputed Theory with Big
Implications, by Hannah Dreyfus,published on ProPublicaorg,
indicates and this is a quote incases when mothers allege abuse
(07:01):
and fathers respond with claimsof parental alienation, it
roughly doubled a woman'schances of losing custody in
court, according to a 2020national study on parental
alienation funded by the USJustice Department.
Another study funded by theJustice Department found the
primary reason judges awardcustody to an abusive parent is
that the mother is not viewed ascredible.
Two-thirds of the mothers inthe study were dismissed as
(07:23):
psychologically unwell and, insome cases, were denied custody
even after their concerns aboutabuse were found to be valid.
End quote Help us understandthis dynamic and how family
courts are persuaded to grantcustody to abusive partners.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
So many different parts of these quotes I want to
talk about.
So a few things are happening.
Number one I think there's thisshared societal belief that
children need both parents tothrive.
For their well-being they needtwo parents and I would say
that's true as long as bothparents are healthy and safe for
(07:59):
the children.
The problem comes into playwhen one of the parents is not
safe, is not healthy, thenactually, research shows that
children do better to only havethe one healthy, safe parent in
their life.
Otherwise they're going tocontinue to have difficulties
with their emotional and mentalhealth.
And I will say that in Texas,judges and family court are
(08:22):
required to operate from thatassumption that children need to
have equal time with bothparents.
So right off the bat, we'refighting a battle.
If judges are supposed to thinkin their heads as they're
making rulings, the kids need tospend an equal amount of time
with both parents.
And there's already this beliefthat kids need both parents.
(08:43):
Also, there's a lot of times infamily court that a dad in a
family would be absent or mightnot show any interest in
spending time with their kids.
I mean, how many times do wehear that in families that dad
isn't around.
Dad isn't part of the picture.
So when a dad shows up to courtand is like please, let me have
(09:06):
my kids, I love my kids, I wantto see my kids, if there has
been abuse and that dad has beenabusive either towards the
children or towards the mom, butthe judge hasn't had any
training to recognize that or tounderstand that domestic
violence impacts children aswell as the mom, then of course
the judge is going to say oh,look at this, a dad who really
(09:28):
wants to participate.
I have to deal with all theseother dads who don't want to
participate.
So then that's great, right,like for their perspective,
that's a really great dadwanting to be involved with the
kids.
And I mentioned this a minuteago.
But the intersectionality ofchild abuse and domestic
violence is very high.
The number one predictor ofchild abuse is spousal abuse,
(09:49):
meaning children who grow up ina home witnessing their mom be
abused by the intimate partnerare more likely to also be
abused by that dad or stepdadfigure.
And in the family court systemthey're really focused on
whether or not there has beenany physical or sexual abuse to
the children and if there hasn't, there is this belief system
(10:10):
that okay, he was a bad partner,a bad husband, a bad boyfriend,
but not a bad dad, right.
And so just because he abusedhis wife doesn't mean he's going
to abuse the kids, which againis a problem, because statistics
and research will show us thatchildren are more vulnerable and
in more danger when they're ina home where the intimate
(10:32):
partner violence is happening.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah, and experts will say, you know, if you ask
the question, if he's an abusivehusband, can he still be a good
dad?
And the answer is no Correct.
Yeah, not at all.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
So when the court system labels the safe parents
valid claims of abuse asalienation tactics, it is
allowing the abusive partner touse the legal system as another
abuse tactic right.
Other examples of that legalabuse could be misusing court
proceedings to control or harassor intimidate or even coerce
(11:03):
and exhaust her financialresources, her emotional
resources.
Abusive partners tend to delaycourt hearings, causing again,
like her, to have to miss workagain and have to find a
babysitter again, or, how youknow, having to pay more for her
attorney, and so it just goesinto this cycle.
This allegation of parentalalienation is just one more
(11:25):
thing that he can use againsther to cause her distress.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Absolutely so.
One of the most vocal andwell-known challengers of
parental alienation theory isthe late Dr Evan Stark.
In his book Children ofCoercive Control he wrote about
the case of Jonathan Dee and Iwant to read an excerpt from the
book.
This is a quote.
When Jonathan told theevaluator and then the judge
that he was terrified of his dad, the father called as his
(11:53):
expert witness psychiatristRichard Gardner, the doctor who
first propounded the theory ofparental alienation syndrome.
Dr Gardner never interviewedJonathan D or his mother and
presumably learned nothing aboutany domestic violence to which
the child was exposed, but henonetheless concluded that since
the couple had been separatedfor almost a decade, the boy's
(12:16):
fears of his father could onlybe the result of alienation by
his mother.
To overcome such alienation, drGardner recommended full legal
and residential custody beshifted to the dad.
When I got involved two yearslater, the mother still only had
two days a month visitation.
The boy was prohibited fromeven visiting his own
(12:38):
pediatrician.
He had gone from an A to an Fstudent, had cut crosses into
his arms, had run away from homeon several occasions and was on
the verge of being placed in aresidential school.
The point here is not thetransparent foolishness of Dr
Gardner's pocket diagnosis ofparental alienation syndrome,
but the incredible power, thefear conveyed to the young boy
(13:01):
by the effect of the father'sthreats on the mother.
This boy, who was sufferingintimidation by the father by
proxy, was the direct victim ofcoercive control of the mother,
and you can find that quote onpage 171 and 72 of the book
Children of Coercive Control.
That's a lot to unpack.
(13:21):
Can you help us understand howa situation like this went so
terribly wrong?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Yes.
So again, court professionals,whether it's the judge or
attorneys or even custodyevaluators, when they don't have
any training on domesticviolence or how it impacts a mom
and the children, right, ifthey don't have the training on
what are the red flags thatabuse is happening or what are
(13:47):
the different types of abusivetactics that a man uses in the
home, then they are not going tosee that abuse is happening and
therefore not be able to takethat into consideration when
making these custody decisions.
Again, it's this belief that anabuser is only abusive towards
the mom but not the kids.
It's not understanding thatwhen there is, even if the
(14:09):
abuser has never physically orsexually abused the child, that
doesn't mean he's not going toso.
Being able to understand theagain that intersectionality
between domestic violence andchild abuse.
I like what Dr Stark said at theend.
Right, it's.
It's not recognizing the impactof coercive control in the home
(14:30):
over the whole family, not justthe mom.
You can see all these symptomsthat he's listed that this boy
experienced.
That is the kind of proof orevidence that there is trauma
that is happening, that thatchild is scared.
You know, a lot of times momsand kids are really scared to
report abuse directly, to comeout and disclose it due to fear
(14:52):
of retaliation, and if there'sno criminal punishments to the
abuser, it's really there'snothing that can stop the abuse
from happening.
Even if mom is taking quote,unquote, all the right steps of
getting a divorce and leavingthe relationship, abuse doesn't
stop once they separate, and so,of course, this kiddo having to
(15:17):
go back to dads, he's stillgoing to continue to have all
those trauma symptoms, andthere's your proof that
something is wrong.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Now, how has this theory and the actions of people
like Dr Gardner in this caseand others contributed to a
false narrative about the impactof domestic violence on
children?
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Parental alienation really creates this focus on
mom's behaviors.
Right, it's saying that mom isdoing something wrong by
alienating her children.
And if they focus on mom'sbehaviors, then it's taking away
the focus of dad's behaviors,because now the spotlight is on
mom instead of on dad.
But the spotlight really needsto be on dad's behaviors because
now the spotlight is on mominstead of on dad.
But the spotlight really needsto be on dad's behaviors because
(15:58):
he's the one that's abusive.
He's the one who ismanipulative, who is
intimidating, who is threatening.
So when the focus is off of him, it's really sending this
message that dad's abusivebehaviors don't matter, that
they aren't impacting thechildren.
You know it's givingjustification in court to be
able to take away kids from momwithout having that full picture
(16:21):
.
So then in doing so?
Speaker 1 (16:23):
how does parental alienation contribute to the
weaponization of children whoare stuck in the middle of
custody disputes?
Speaker 2 (16:30):
So it causes a lot more trauma.
Right, when parental alienationis used as the reason to take
children away from the primarycaregiver, the mom and the
children are given to theabusive parent.
We see these trauma symptoms inthe children.
Think about, like, how awfulthat sounds to forcibly remove a
child from a safe, loving,healthy primary parent and all
(16:54):
of a sudden send them over tolive with dad.
I'm not sure if you're aware,maria, of reunification camps.
Yes, it's a thing happening indifferent states, including
Texas.
This is where courts are comingin and ruling and saying, okay,
yes, children have to bereunified with dad because mom
has been alienating them.
Right that allegation ofparental alienation.
(17:16):
They are forcefully taking thekids away from mom, sometimes in
the middle of the night.
I've seen videos of teenagersbeing carried away by police
officers and they're forced tothen go and stay with dad who a
lot of times have not had a tonof contact with him.
And especially you can imaginethe younger kids, older kids,
maybe they can you know they'reold enough to maybe take dad,
who a lot of times have not hada ton of contact with him.
And especially you can imaginethe younger kids, older kids,
(17:36):
maybe they can you know, they'reold enough to maybe take care
of themselves a little bit, butthe younger kids not knowing,
like, who is this person thatI'm with?
Or you know, I'm much smallerthan dad and so I can't fight
back or I can't protect myself,it really creates this
instability and trauma.
A lot of times.
They are saying that kids thenare not allowed to have any
(17:57):
contact with the mom for acertain period of time Sometimes
that's 30 days or 60 days andthen they're forcing them to
engage in what they're callingreunification therapy.
So abusive men claiming that momis alienating the children when
in fact, right, she's trying tokeep them safe away from him.
He's going to then manipulatethe system, the attorney and the
(18:19):
judges, and when they're sayingthat they're attending this
reunification therapy, I'msaying quote, unquote therapy.
It's not going to work, it'snot going to repair that
relationship, it's not going tobe effective.
They say like, oh, their goalis to repair, to create this
attachment or this bond betweenthe children and dad, to repair
(18:43):
what mom has damaged, when inreality, if it's done in that
way, through force, throughcoercion, through fear tactics,
the child is not going to repairany relationship, especially if
they don't want to see dad.
If they don't want arelationship with them, if they
don't feel safe with dad, that'snot going to work.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Yeah, I mean, nobody responds well to those types of
tactics, and least of allchildren.
And from what I understand, ina lot of these reunification
camps they're not even moderatedby a licensed professional.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Correct, correct.
There's no kind of standard ofcare.
There's no nobody kind ofoverviewing them, looking at
them and making sure thatthey're following any types of
protocols, reviewing them,looking at them and making sure
that they're following any typesof protocols.
You know if reunificationtherapy really is recommended by
a mental health professional,not by a judge or a lawyer, but
a mental health professional hasassessed and evaluated and said
(19:37):
, okay, yes, let's start somereunification therapy.
That therapist number onerecommending it needs to be
trained in domestic violence andchild abuse and all of the
things.
And then they need to followsome certain guidelines to make
sure that it's actually going towork.
There needs to be a safe adultpresent.
There needs to be thatsupervision.
There needs to be continuedcontact with the primary
(19:59):
caregiver.
I can't see how traumatizing achild who's already traumatized
is the solution.
That's not the solution.
That's just causing more trauma.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Yeah, absolutely, and we covered the topic of
reunification therapy andreunification camps on the
podcast on Crimes Against Womena year or so ago with Dr Bandy
Lee.
You might want to check outthat episode for more
information about that topic andunderstanding that it's
different in every state.
How or if there is anyreunification therapy orders.
(20:31):
Right, yes, okay, so let'sswitch gears for a minute and
talk about post-separation abuse, because this is another very
serious form of abuse that isextremely damaging to children.
Give us some examples of postseparation abuse.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
So many things.
So abusive partners commonlyvery repeatedly use children as
weapons to control the safeparent.
Right, they know if I dosomething to the kid that's
going to make mom sad, angry,nervous, whatever, and so that
is an easy way for him tocontrol her.
(21:06):
Even threatening to hurt thechildren can be a way that he is
able to maintain control overher.
So some examples might berefusing to pay child support,
making false reports to CPS,requiring children to monitor
the safe parent and report backto him, even encouraging the
child to engage in the abusivetactics towards the safe parent.
(21:28):
Abusive partners try tomanipulate the children into
believing that the safe parentis a bad parent or doesn't love
the child.
Abusive partners they willalways.
We've seen this time and timeagain.
They will always put their ownneeds first above the child's
needs.
Right?
They're undermining mom'sauthority through overruling
limits and consequences, and theabusive partner's chronic
(21:50):
mistreatment of that safe parentin front of the child is
sending a message hey, abuse isokay, yelling at someone is okay
, hitting someone is okay, andso their actions, even if their
words are never hit a woman orrespect others, their actions
are showing otherwise and reallyteaching the kids that it's
okay to hurt someone when you'reangry, so abusive partners also
(22:14):
will interfere with mom'sparenting styles and not letting
her care for her kids in theway that she would like to and
all of these different abusivetactics he's gaining power and
control over the family.
I think we've talked about thisbefore, but I'm gonna say it
again If a fire-breathing dragonwalked into the room right now,
the safest place for me to gois right next to that
(22:37):
fire-breathing dragon, becausehe's not gonna turn on himself
and aim his fire at himself.
So if I'm aligned with thisdragon, then I'm safe.
And that's what's happening.
In homes where there's abusivedads, children sometimes will
align with dad, will engage inthe abusive behaviors, will try
to you know, do what dad issaying of monitoring mom or
(23:00):
whatever it is that dad isrequiring and threatening to
keep themselves safe.
So I think it's important, justlike on the outside, even if it
looks like the kiddos arealigning with dad and they don't
tell the judge that they'rescared of dad, it doesn't mean
that that's actually what'shappening.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Yeah, I mean, that's manipulation right there.
I love the visual you gave usof the fire breathing dragon.
I love that for so many reasons.
That's, you know, reallyalarming.
And, yeah, you want to be withthe person who is winning.
It's getting their way andthey're getting it through force
because that's the way that youdo it, or not, or shouldn't be
doing it.
And I loved what you said aboutabusive partners put their own
(23:40):
needs first, because thatabsolutely makes it crystal
clear to me they have to win,they have to get what they want
at all costs.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
No matter what Right, and so he wins when he's sowing
those divisions right.
If he can get the kids on hisside, then he knows that mom is
going to stay because mom wouldnever leave her children.
That's the most important thingto her is her relationship with
the kids, and so him being ableto get them onto his side or
hurting them so that then shemakes sure that she does
(24:12):
anything and everything that hesays to prevent them from being
hurt, is his way of having thatpower and control.
And after separation, becauseall of these tactics can happen
while they're living with theabusive partner, and when the
relationship ends, the abusedoesn't end.
Maybe the physical abusetowards mom ends because he
doesn't have physical access toher, but there's still going to
(24:34):
be that emotional abuse, thatuse of the children.
Now, all of a sudden, thechildren might be the best and
easiest way for him to get ather, and so he's still using
that coercive control, thatverbal and emotional abuse, he
can strategically manipulatefamily and friends and the
community into conflict with mom, spreading lies and rumors, so
(24:55):
that now it's not just isolatingher from, maybe like some other
supports, but her family andher friends right, using that,
that gaslighting to control thenarrative, so that now everybody
in the community or in theextended family are seeing
what's happening.
And he's now saying again ohwell, she's alienating me from
the kids, when in fact she'sjust trying to protect them.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Okay, so we've talked a lot about the abuser.
Let's give some air time to thechildren and let's talk about
the short and long-term impactsof these actions and domestic
violence upon children.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Yes, so children are going to experience emotional
abuse when they are witnessingthe domestic violence and so
this is going to cause someemotional effects.
They're going to be feelingresponsible for the violence or
shame, that they come from aviolent home.
Maybe they feel guilt that theydidn't stop the abuse and they
(25:54):
felt responsible for notprotecting mom.
They could feel a lot of fearor confusion.
Confusion is actually verycommon, because how hard for
these children to see oh, thisis my dad and I love him, and
this is my dad and I hate whathe's doing.
You know, I've had kiddoclients who talk to me about how
they're really confused aboutthemselves and they think that
(26:16):
they can never feel angrybecause dad was always angry and
dad was.
Quote unquote bad and so I don'twanna be like dad so I can
never be angry.
But that's causing a lot ofemotional turmoil and not being
able to experience a normal,natural feeling of anger, which
is what everybody feels.
There can be a lot of isolationfor these children or kind of
(26:38):
feelings of numbness.
It's kind of their brains wayof checking out.
If I have to pay attentionright and really think about
what's happening in my family,then I'm going to be in pain and
so to protect myself I'm justnot going to think about it and
so we see a lot of avoidance.
We also see a lot of behaviorconcerns.
The children might becomephysically aggressive themselves
(27:00):
.
They might be acting out.
We see a lot of socialdifficulties with their friends.
Maybe it's like really intenserelationships, sleeping problems
, difficulty concentrating.
We see a lot of kids who aregoing through trauma, who maybe
appear like they have ADHD, withthat inattention and
hyperactivity.
We do see disordered eating,poor academic performance.
(27:23):
We know that there's acorrelation between asthma and
witnessing domestic violence inchildren.
I found some statistics that Ifind really staggering and awful
.
Children that grow up in a homewhere intimate partner violence
was present are 50 more timeslikely to abuse alcohol and
drugs, 74 times more likely tocommit crimes against other
(27:45):
people and six times more likelyto commit suicide.
I think that these areimportant, because this is not
saying that these are thesymptoms that they experience
when they're living in a homewith an abuser.
These are long-term impactsthat we're seeing, yeah, and
they're devastating.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Absolutely, and so helping children recover from
domestic violence should be ournumber one priority, because it
impacts not only their futurebut the future of the entire
community.
So you work with clients, bothwomen and children, at Genesis
as a licensed clinical socialworker.
How do you work with them tohelp them recognize what is
(28:23):
really happening, and what toolsor strategies do you provide to
them to counter these abusivetactics?
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Maria, I really love this question because I could
not do my job if there wasn'tany hope.
Hope for healing, right.
That's what keeps me in in thework in the field really being
able to recognize okay, what dowe do about this?
How can we help?
Like I mentioned, we can't stopthe abuse, but what we can do
is really provide that supportto mom and to the kids to be
(28:50):
able to get through it.
So a couple of things.
Number one we do attachmenttherapy at Genesis with a mom
and a child.
So we know that witnessingdomestic violence impacts not
only the kid and the mom butimpacts their relationship.
I mentioned earlier about howdad tries to undermine mom,
tries to tell the children liesabout mom, and so we really do
(29:11):
see that attachment or thatrelationship between the mother
and the child be hurt anddamaged.
And so being able to do somerepair work through attachment
therapy has been so healing forour moms and our kiddos.
We, of course, are doing traumaprocessing.
My team of counselors areamazing and they do a lot of
different evidence-based traumatherapies to help children be
(29:32):
able to heal from the abuse.
I want to be really clear.
We are never saying to childrenyour dad is bad, your dad is
mean, your mom is the good guy.
We're not here to convince themof that, but we're helping them
learn critical thinking skills.
If we can talk and teach themabout abuse, about respect,
(29:54):
about the impacts of trauma,then they themselves can see how
dad is responding, how dad isacting, and they get to decide
okay, this is okay or this isnot okay.
We work with kids who arealigned with dad.
We are not.
We are not here to convincethem that they're wrong and that
(30:14):
they should be you know theyshould be on mom's side at all
but really being able to teachchildren and moms about abuse,
about the red flags of abuse howdo you feel in your body when
you feel safe or when you don'tfeel safe.
We also do a lot of work withour moms.
When we see kids for counseling, we do what's called parent
consultations, where we'remeeting with moms individually
(30:38):
to be able to provide somesupport for her child.
And we also have parentingclasses and these classes and
our parent consults we reallyare focused on what are the
parenting skills that mom canuse, or the strategies that mom
can do to help kids heal fromdomestic violence and also can
combat the abusive behaviorsright?
(30:58):
So if you think about, for oneexample, an abusive dad in the
home, it's common for him tokind of be a little erratic
Again, going back to it's justin the moment.
Whatever his needs are, that'swhat he wants.
And so there might be timeswhen it's a little confusing for
kids because there's notconsistent rules.
And so one thing we talk aboutwith our moms is can you
(31:20):
implement consistent rules andboundaries that kids know what
to expect?
Because you don't know what toexpect from an abusive dad.
He might fly off the handle oneday on one thing and then
tomorrow that same thing doesn'tdo anything, or vice versa.
So really being able toencourage mom to use these
positive parenting skills andtechniques, teaching her how to
build connection with herchildren instead of using
(31:43):
coercion, helping her to showand express love instead of
instilling that fear is reallygoing to combat the domestic
violence that they'veexperienced.
When talking about the effectsof intimate partner violence on
children who witness it, we arealso not suggesting that a
father can never see hischildren again, right, we
understand that a lot of times,the majority of times, the the
(32:06):
abusive father is going to begranted custody or some type of
visitation with the children,and so we just would ask that
there be maybe some guidelinesto follow, right, to minimize
that risk of emotional andphysical harm.
So we like it when they're ableto get supervised visits,
because then we know that thereis an unbiased adult not mom and
(32:29):
not somebody from dad's family,but in a third person, a third
party, who will be able to makesure that the children are not
being abused by dad.
We talk about thinking aboutthe child's age when you're
thinking about visitation withdad.
The younger the child is, theless time they should be
separated from mom for a periodof time, and so really then
(32:50):
being able to titrate the lengthof the time with dad, the
frequency of the time with dad,and I would really hope that dad
would be.
If he really is wanting thesevisits with kids and he's saying
that it's for the children'sbenefit, then that means he's
willing to put in his work ofgoing to his own therapy,
(33:10):
attending parenting classes thatare specifically designed to
help traumatize children.
If he can do all of thosethings, that is going to provide
better outcomes for thechildren.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
I really appreciate that you emphasize that because
of dad doing his own work,because all of these things that
you just mentioned, that you doand your team does to work with
women and children who'veexperienced domestic violence,
it's work for them.
They have to work through theirtrauma, their skills and
practices and meditation and allkinds of things that you need
(33:43):
to do.
You have to practice it.
Dad's just going into courtscreaming parental alienation,
getting his way and then notdoing anything, not doing any of
the work, and it's not enoughto say that that's unfair.
It's just a really poor exampleof being human.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Absolutely, I agree, you know.
Again, going back to how westarted the conversation, if
children can have two healthyparents, then of course we're
going to have better lifelongoutcomes because they had two
healthy parents.
But a healthy parent, maria, issomebody who is willing to do
their own emotional work right,who is willing to compromise
(34:19):
with the other parent, who iswilling to put their own needs
to the side and to focus on whatis in the best interest truly
in the best interest of thechildren.
It is a parent who isemotionally safe, meaning that
they accept all of the child'sfeelings, whether that's anger
towards them or love towards theother parent.
(34:40):
Being able to really prioritizea child's emotional and
physical safety not just theirneeds but their safety,
encouraging the child to respectboth parents, not trying to
take the child away from theother parent that's what you are
if you're a healthy parentRight, exactly, real quick.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
you mentioned one thing.
I wanted to try to get anexample of it parenting
techniques to include connection.
Give us an example of how tobuild connection with a child.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Okay, oh, I have so many.
We know that it's reallyhelpful for child development,
for children to feel like theyare a part of something, that
they have a sense of belonging.
So if you can create familytraditions, family rituals, to
where, like, this is our secrethandshake, or this is our family
motto, or this is what we doevery night before bed, or this
is what we say to each otherthis is our secret handshake or
this is our family motto, orthis is what we do every night
(35:28):
before bed, or this is what wesay to each other, you know,
every morning before you go toschool, that is building that
connection, building thatrelationship, and the techniques
are going to depend on thechild's personality and the
child's age.
Right, for a five year old, youmight do a fun, secret little
handshake and that is the bestthing.
(35:48):
Right, for a five-year-old, youmight do a fun, secret little
handshake and that is the bestthing.
But try to do that with your15-year-old teenager and that's
not going to happen.
So you have to just be reallyindividualized in what's going
to work with the family.
I have several bookrecommendations, but different
ideas to be able to help momconnect.
So maybe it's.
Let's talk about physical touchand so for maybe for your
(36:09):
daughter doing her hair, is thatphysical touch in the morning
that she's getting?
But for the son, he doesn'treally want you to play with his
hair, but he'll give you a highfive, great, right.
So now we're doing physicaltouch.
We talk about physicalproximity.
When you're sitting on thecouch with your kids and you're
watching a movie, can maybe youjust be like sitting close to
each other instead of on twoopposite ends of the couch?
(36:31):
Let's say the teenage boy isplaying video games, can mom
pause what she's doing, takefive minutes out of the day to
go and sit next to him?
Hey, tell me about your videogame that you're playing, and
maybe he's going to be like, bequiet, mom, I'm concentrating or
whatever.
Like I get that.
(36:52):
But if she can just sit next tohim and maybe like her knee is
touching his knee and that'sthat connection that she's
building with him.
So lots of different examplesof how she can implement just
these tiny, free, right, easythings to do to help build that
connection so that the childdoes feel safe and seen and
heard.
There's this analogy that Iheard, and I'm sure it's in one
of the thousands of parentingbooks that I've read and I can't
(37:13):
remember which book it's comingfrom now at this point, so I
apologize, but I love thisanalogy that parenting and
having open communication islike going fishing.
When you go fishing, you haveto throw out the line over and
over again before you get a bite.
With parenting, it's the sameidea.
You have to just keep trying.
You have to throw out that line.
Hey, how was your day at schooltoday?
Hey, what did you learn today?
(37:34):
Hey, I'm thinking about you.
I know you have a really bigday at school.
All of these little things thatwe're just trying, and most of
the time you know how kids are.
Fine, I didn't learn anything,nothing.
There's like one, two wordanswers.
But eventually, if they see theconsistent effort that mom is
putting into of building arelationship when you least
(37:56):
expect it, they're going tostart opening up and they're
going to start talking For somany reasons you're so right,
not the least of which is kidsare incredible observers.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
They see everything, even if you don't know that
they're watching or listening orsensing what's going on.
So, yes, they will recognize ifyou are trying to reach them,
and it may take time with somekids.
Some kids are more responsive,but most of the time they will
connect with you by just by youtrying to cast that line, as you
(38:28):
said.
And everything that you saidgoes back to the point of being
a human being, because beinghuman connection is what makes
us strong, connecting with eachother.
And so these are excellentexamples of how anyone listening
, who just wants to connect witha child, or maybe even is
experiencing domestic violence.
Ruth is an expert and that'swhy we love bringing her on the
(38:54):
show to talk about her work inthese really important topics.
There's more information on ourwebsite and always good to be
with you, ruth.
Excellent Thank you for havingme, genesis.
Women's Shelter and Supportexists to give women in abusive
situations a way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
(39:14):
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
domestic violence.
You can learn more atgenesisshelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
Genesis Women's Shelter and on Xat Genesis Shelter.
The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, 7 days
(39:35):
a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.
Family court has become a battleground, with the
youngest victims of domesticviolence paying the price most,
especially when false claims ofparental alienation are used to
sway judges into awardingcustody to abusive partners.
Here to break down where thesystem is failing our children
and our future is Ruth Guerrero,chief Clinical Officer of
Genesis Women's Shelter andSupport.
(00:20):
I'm Maria McMullin, and this isGenesis, the podcast and
support.
I'm Maria McMullin, and this isGenesis, the podcast.
Parental alienation and theresulting syndrome is a theory
first put forward by Dr RichardGardner in the 1980s.
The theory claims that parentalalienation syndrome is a
childhood disorder where a childdevelops an unjustified
(00:43):
campaign of denigration andrejection against one parent,
often as a result ofmanipulation and indoctrination
by the other parent, and is acircumstance most often
associated with custody disputeswhere domestic violence is
present.
While controversial, thistheory has often been wielded by
some experts to sway familycourt judges to side with an
(01:03):
abusive parent, most often thefather, on determining custody
of a child, thereby leaving theabused survivor typically their
mother with little or norecourse and forced to submit to
custody orders, having herchildren experience further
abuse and retaliation from anabusive father.
To challenge this theory, itspractice and to illuminate the
(01:23):
harm that befalls children dueto this false narrative.
We welcome Ruth Guerrero, chiefClinical Officer of Genesis
Women's Shelter and Support,back to the show.
Ruth, welcome back to the show.
Thanks, maria.
I'm happy to be with you and wehave a lot to unpack today, so
let's jump right in.
I opened the show with a briefand high-level overview of
parental alienation and parentalalienation syndrome, but it
(01:46):
would be helpful to understandmore about how this theory
developed and why it is stillaccepted.
So, to begin, and from aclinical perspective, what is
parental alienation and parentalalienation syndrome?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Parental alienation is when one parent is
manipulating a child to alignwith them and to be against the
second parent, when there's nonegative impact on the child to
have a relationship with thatsecond parent.
I think that's the importantpiece right.
There's no reason to alienatethe child from that parent.
(02:20):
And yet they're doing that.
If there is abuse happening tothe child or that the child is
witnessing abuse happening tothat primary parent, that
primary parent is actually doingsafety planning, meaning that
they are taking the stepsnecessary to help teach the
child how to reduce risk of harm, how to recognize when there's
(02:41):
harm happening right.
In society we expect parents todo safety planning.
In society we expect parents todo safety planning with their
kids.
We expect parents to teach themto look both ways before
crossing the street and to puton a seatbelt when you're in the
car and to recognize strangerdanger right or noticing, like
when, those grooming behaviorsof being able to recognize and
therefore look for help.
(03:02):
Ask a safe parent or a safeadult for help being able to
identify when there's danger.
When one parent is beingabusive to the child, it is the
responsibility of the otherparent to then do that safety
planning.
But unfortunately, abusivepartners and because we work at
Genesis and I'm talking about,you know we work with women who
(03:24):
are survivors and victims, andmen are usually the perpetrator.
So it's when these abusive menare using what they're calling
parental alienation against themom in court, which I know we're
going to talk about later.
Yeah, but that is when, like,it's a problem because there's
an actual reason, there's avalid reason why mom is not
(03:44):
alienating the children but ishelping to do safety planning.
So parental alienation syndromewas coined by the psychiatrist
Richard Gardner.
It's not listed in the DSM,which is the Diagnostic and
Statistical Manual for MentalDisorders, which is what we use
to be able to give a mentaldisorder a diagnosis.
It's not found in the ICD,which is what health
(04:06):
professionals use withinternational classification of
diseases.
It's not designated to be areal diagnosis or any type of
disorder.
Most mental healthprofessionals and domestic
violence advocates rejectparental alienation syndrome due
to its lack of scientificorigin.
Even the American PsychologicalAssociation found that there is
(04:26):
a significant absence of thedata to support parental
alienation syndrome.
But, like I mentioned,unfortunately, even though it's
not a real thing, abusers try touse it or misuse it in the
court system in an attempt tocause that emotional stress or
distress to the mom by makingthese false allegations when in
(04:47):
fact mom and children arenervous and scared.
Right, mom is scared for herchildren's safety when they are
spending time with their dad,and so just to?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
point back to the beginning, getting the
definition down.
It is an allegation that themother is alienating the
children from the father and menput that forward in family
court.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
to what To get custody right.
They want full custody, notbecause they want to be an
involved dad, but because theywant to abuse her further.
They want to have control overher and over the children.
And the real definition doesnot say dad or mom, it just says
you know one parent versus theother parent.
(05:29):
But for our conversation today,in sake of ease, instead of
having to continue saying he orshe and he and she, you know
being able to say the dad as theabuser and mom as the victim.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
I appreciate that.
I just wanted to make thatdistinction for listeners
because it'd be a little hard.
They can't see us.
You know we're just doing audioand we're kind of talking about
this in a theoretical way, butit is dad claiming that mom is
alienating the children from himand therefore he deserves to
have custody on those grounds.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Correct, and what he's going to point at or point
to is that she is telling thekids to you know, make sure that
when they're at dad's house,that they know how to call the
police and how to call 911 andhow to be able to keep
themselves safe.
Right to do that safetyplanning.
Or maybe he's saying thingslike safe, right to do that
safety planning.
Or maybe he's saying thingslike well, she doesn't let me
(06:18):
see them, or she doesn't everlet me be alone with them.
Well, that's because she knowsthat he is dangerous towards
them and she knows that shedoesn't trust how he's going to
parent and so her being able tohelp her kids stay safe by not
going with him, for her that's asafety plan.
But he will point to that incourt and say see, she's
alienating them from me.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Exactly so.
To kind of just build on thisconversation, a 2023 article
titled Parental Alienation aDisputed Theory with Big
Implications, by Hannah Dreyfus,published on ProPublicaorg,
indicates and this is a quote incases when mothers allege abuse
(07:01):
and fathers respond with claimsof parental alienation, it
roughly doubled a woman'schances of losing custody in
court, according to a 2020national study on parental
alienation funded by the USJustice Department.
Another study funded by theJustice Department found the
primary reason judges awardcustody to an abusive parent is
that the mother is not viewed ascredible.
Two-thirds of the mothers inthe study were dismissed as
(07:23):
psychologically unwell and, insome cases, were denied custody
even after their concerns aboutabuse were found to be valid.
End quote Help us understandthis dynamic and how family
courts are persuaded to grantcustody to abusive partners.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
So many different parts of these quotes I want to
talk about.
So a few things are happening.
Number one I think there's thisshared societal belief that
children need both parents tothrive.
For their well-being they needtwo parents and I would say
that's true as long as bothparents are healthy and safe for
(07:59):
the children.
The problem comes into playwhen one of the parents is not
safe, is not healthy, thenactually, research shows that
children do better to only havethe one healthy, safe parent in
their life.
Otherwise they're going tocontinue to have difficulties
with their emotional and mentalhealth.
And I will say that in Texas,judges and family court are
(08:22):
required to operate from thatassumption that children need to
have equal time with bothparents.
So right off the bat, we'refighting a battle.
If judges are supposed to thinkin their heads as they're
making rulings, the kids need tospend an equal amount of time
with both parents.
And there's already this beliefthat kids need both parents.
(08:43):
Also, there's a lot of times infamily court that a dad in a
family would be absent or mightnot show any interest in
spending time with their kids.
I mean, how many times do wehear that in families that dad
isn't around.
Dad isn't part of the picture.
So when a dad shows up to courtand is like please, let me have
(09:06):
my kids, I love my kids, I wantto see my kids, if there has
been abuse and that dad has beenabusive either towards the
children or towards the mom, butthe judge hasn't had any
training to recognize that or tounderstand that domestic
violence impacts children aswell as the mom, then of course
the judge is going to say oh,look at this, a dad who really
(09:28):
wants to participate.
I have to deal with all theseother dads who don't want to
participate.
So then that's great, right,like for their perspective,
that's a really great dadwanting to be involved with the
kids.
And I mentioned this a minuteago.
But the intersectionality ofchild abuse and domestic
violence is very high.
The number one predictor ofchild abuse is spousal abuse,
(09:49):
meaning children who grow up ina home witnessing their mom be
abused by the intimate partnerare more likely to also be
abused by that dad or stepdadfigure.
And in the family court systemthey're really focused on
whether or not there has beenany physical or sexual abuse to
the children and if there hasn't, there is this belief system
(10:10):
that okay, he was a bad partner,a bad husband, a bad boyfriend,
but not a bad dad, right.
And so just because he abusedhis wife doesn't mean he's going
to abuse the kids, which againis a problem, because statistics
and research will show us thatchildren are more vulnerable and
in more danger when they're ina home where the intimate
(10:32):
partner violence is happening.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah, and experts will say, you know, if you ask
the question, if he's an abusivehusband, can he still be a good
dad?
And the answer is no Correct.
Yeah, not at all.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
So when the court system labels the safe parents
valid claims of abuse asalienation tactics, it is
allowing the abusive partner touse the legal system as another
abuse tactic right.
Other examples of that legalabuse could be misusing court
proceedings to control or harassor intimidate or even coerce
(11:03):
and exhaust her financialresources, her emotional
resources.
Abusive partners tend to delaycourt hearings, causing again,
like her, to have to miss workagain and have to find a
babysitter again, or, how youknow, having to pay more for her
attorney, and so it just goesinto this cycle.
This allegation of parentalalienation is just one more
(11:25):
thing that he can use againsther to cause her distress.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Absolutely so.
One of the most vocal andwell-known challengers of
parental alienation theory isthe late Dr Evan Stark.
In his book Children ofCoercive Control he wrote about
the case of Jonathan Dee and Iwant to read an excerpt from the
book.
This is a quote.
When Jonathan told theevaluator and then the judge
that he was terrified of his dad, the father called as his
(11:53):
expert witness psychiatristRichard Gardner, the doctor who
first propounded the theory ofparental alienation syndrome.
Dr Gardner never interviewedJonathan D or his mother and
presumably learned nothing aboutany domestic violence to which
the child was exposed, but henonetheless concluded that since
the couple had been separatedfor almost a decade, the boy's
(12:16):
fears of his father could onlybe the result of alienation by
his mother.
To overcome such alienation, drGardner recommended full legal
and residential custody beshifted to the dad.
When I got involved two yearslater, the mother still only had
two days a month visitation.
The boy was prohibited fromeven visiting his own
(12:38):
pediatrician.
He had gone from an A to an Fstudent, had cut crosses into
his arms, had run away from homeon several occasions and was on
the verge of being placed in aresidential school.
The point here is not thetransparent foolishness of Dr
Gardner's pocket diagnosis ofparental alienation syndrome,
but the incredible power, thefear conveyed to the young boy
(13:01):
by the effect of the father'sthreats on the mother.
This boy, who was sufferingintimidation by the father by
proxy, was the direct victim ofcoercive control of the mother,
and you can find that quote onpage 171 and 72 of the book
Children of Coercive Control.
That's a lot to unpack.
(13:21):
Can you help us understand howa situation like this went so
terribly wrong?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Yes.
So again, court professionals,whether it's the judge or
attorneys or even custodyevaluators, when they don't have
any training on domesticviolence or how it impacts a mom
and the children, right, ifthey don't have the training on
what are the red flags thatabuse is happening or what are
(13:47):
the different types of abusivetactics that a man uses in the
home, then they are not going tosee that abuse is happening and
therefore not be able to takethat into consideration when
making these custody decisions.
Again, it's this belief that anabuser is only abusive towards
the mom but not the kids.
It's not understanding thatwhen there is, even if the
(14:09):
abuser has never physically orsexually abused the child, that
doesn't mean he's not going toso.
Being able to understand theagain that intersectionality
between domestic violence andchild abuse.
I like what Dr Stark said at theend.
Right, it's.
It's not recognizing the impactof coercive control in the home
(14:30):
over the whole family, not justthe mom.
You can see all these symptomsthat he's listed that this boy
experienced.
That is the kind of proof orevidence that there is trauma
that is happening, that thatchild is scared.
You know, a lot of times momsand kids are really scared to
report abuse directly, to comeout and disclose it due to fear
(14:52):
of retaliation, and if there'sno criminal punishments to the
abuser, it's really there'snothing that can stop the abuse
from happening.
Even if mom is taking quote,unquote, all the right steps of
getting a divorce and leavingthe relationship, abuse doesn't
stop once they separate, and so,of course, this kiddo having to
(15:17):
go back to dads, he's stillgoing to continue to have all
those trauma symptoms, andthere's your proof that
something is wrong.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Now, how has this theory and the actions of people
like Dr Gardner in this caseand others contributed to a
false narrative about the impactof domestic violence on
children?
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Parental alienation really creates this focus on
mom's behaviors.
Right, it's saying that mom isdoing something wrong by
alienating her children.
And if they focus on mom'sbehaviors, then it's taking away
the focus of dad's behaviors,because now the spotlight is on
mom instead of on dad.
But the spotlight really needsto be on dad's behaviors because
now the spotlight is on mominstead of on dad.
But the spotlight really needsto be on dad's behaviors because
(15:58):
he's the one that's abusive.
He's the one who ismanipulative, who is
intimidating, who is threatening.
So when the focus is off of him, it's really sending this
message that dad's abusivebehaviors don't matter, that
they aren't impacting thechildren.
You know it's givingjustification in court to be
able to take away kids from momwithout having that full picture
(16:21):
.
So then in doing so?
Speaker 1 (16:23):
how does parental alienation contribute to the
weaponization of children whoare stuck in the middle of
custody disputes?
Speaker 2 (16:30):
So it causes a lot more trauma.
Right, when parental alienationis used as the reason to take
children away from the primarycaregiver, the mom and the
children are given to theabusive parent.
We see these trauma symptoms inthe children.
Think about, like, how awfulthat sounds to forcibly remove a
child from a safe, loving,healthy primary parent and all
(16:54):
of a sudden send them over tolive with dad.
I'm not sure if you're aware,maria, of reunification camps.
Yes, it's a thing happening indifferent states, including
Texas.
This is where courts are comingin and ruling and saying, okay,
yes, children have to bereunified with dad because mom
has been alienating them.
Right that allegation ofparental alienation.
(17:16):
They are forcefully taking thekids away from mom, sometimes in
the middle of the night.
I've seen videos of teenagersbeing carried away by police
officers and they're forced tothen go and stay with dad who a
lot of times have not had a tonof contact with him.
And especially you can imaginethe younger kids, older kids,
maybe they can you know they'reold enough to maybe take dad,
who a lot of times have not hada ton of contact with him.
And especially you can imaginethe younger kids, older kids,
(17:36):
maybe they can you know, they'reold enough to maybe take care
of themselves a little bit, butthe younger kids not knowing,
like, who is this person thatI'm with?
Or you know, I'm much smallerthan dad and so I can't fight
back or I can't protect myself,it really creates this
instability and trauma.
A lot of times.
They are saying that kids thenare not allowed to have any
(17:57):
contact with the mom for acertain period of time Sometimes
that's 30 days or 60 days andthen they're forcing them to
engage in what they're callingreunification therapy.
So abusive men claiming that momis alienating the children when
in fact, right, she's trying tokeep them safe away from him.
He's going to then manipulatethe system, the attorney and the
(18:19):
judges, and when they're sayingthat they're attending this
reunification therapy, I'msaying quote, unquote therapy.
It's not going to work, it'snot going to repair that
relationship, it's not going tobe effective.
They say like, oh, their goalis to repair, to create this
attachment or this bond betweenthe children and dad, to repair
(18:43):
what mom has damaged, when inreality, if it's done in that
way, through force, throughcoercion, through fear tactics,
the child is not going to repairany relationship, especially if
they don't want to see dad.
If they don't want arelationship with them, if they
don't feel safe with dad, that'snot going to work.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Yeah, I mean, nobody responds well to those types of
tactics, and least of allchildren.
And from what I understand, ina lot of these reunification
camps they're not even moderatedby a licensed professional.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Correct, correct.
There's no kind of standard ofcare.
There's no nobody kind ofoverviewing them, looking at
them and making sure thatthey're following any types of
protocols, reviewing them,looking at them and making sure
that they're following any typesof protocols.
You know if reunificationtherapy really is recommended by
a mental health professional,not by a judge or a lawyer, but
a mental health professional hasassessed and evaluated and said
(19:37):
, okay, yes, let's start somereunification therapy.
That therapist number onerecommending it needs to be
trained in domestic violence andchild abuse and all of the
things.
And then they need to followsome certain guidelines to make
sure that it's actually going towork.
There needs to be a safe adultpresent.
There needs to be thatsupervision.
There needs to be continuedcontact with the primary
(19:59):
caregiver.
I can't see how traumatizing achild who's already traumatized
is the solution.
That's not the solution.
That's just causing more trauma.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Yeah, absolutely, and we covered the topic of
reunification therapy andreunification camps on the
podcast on Crimes Against Womena year or so ago with Dr Bandy
Lee.
You might want to check outthat episode for more
information about that topic andunderstanding that it's
different in every state.
How or if there is anyreunification therapy orders.
(20:31):
Right, yes, okay, so let'sswitch gears for a minute and
talk about post-separation abuse, because this is another very
serious form of abuse that isextremely damaging to children.
Give us some examples of postseparation abuse.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
So many things.
So abusive partners commonlyvery repeatedly use children as
weapons to control the safeparent.
Right, they know if I dosomething to the kid that's
going to make mom sad, angry,nervous, whatever, and so that
is an easy way for him tocontrol her.
(21:06):
Even threatening to hurt thechildren can be a way that he is
able to maintain control overher.
So some examples might berefusing to pay child support,
making false reports to CPS,requiring children to monitor
the safe parent and report backto him, even encouraging the
child to engage in the abusivetactics towards the safe parent.
(21:28):
Abusive partners try tomanipulate the children into
believing that the safe parentis a bad parent or doesn't love
the child.
Abusive partners they willalways.
We've seen this time and timeagain.
They will always put their ownneeds first above the child's
needs.
Right?
They're undermining mom'sauthority through overruling
limits and consequences, and theabusive partner's chronic
(21:50):
mistreatment of that safe parentin front of the child is
sending a message hey, abuse isokay, yelling at someone is okay
, hitting someone is okay, andso their actions, even if their
words are never hit a woman orrespect others, their actions
are showing otherwise and reallyteaching the kids that it's
okay to hurt someone when you'reangry, so abusive partners also
(22:14):
will interfere with mom'sparenting styles and not letting
her care for her kids in theway that she would like to and
all of these different abusivetactics he's gaining power and
control over the family.
I think we've talked about thisbefore, but I'm gonna say it
again If a fire-breathing dragonwalked into the room right now,
the safest place for me to gois right next to that
(22:37):
fire-breathing dragon, becausehe's not gonna turn on himself
and aim his fire at himself.
So if I'm aligned with thisdragon, then I'm safe.
And that's what's happening.
In homes where there's abusivedads, children sometimes will
align with dad, will engage inthe abusive behaviors, will try
to you know, do what dad issaying of monitoring mom or
(23:00):
whatever it is that dad isrequiring and threatening to
keep themselves safe.
So I think it's important, justlike on the outside, even if it
looks like the kiddos arealigning with dad and they don't
tell the judge that they'rescared of dad, it doesn't mean
that that's actually what'shappening.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Yeah, I mean, that's manipulation right there.
I love the visual you gave usof the fire breathing dragon.
I love that for so many reasons.
That's, you know, reallyalarming.
And, yeah, you want to be withthe person who is winning.
It's getting their way andthey're getting it through force
because that's the way that youdo it, or not, or shouldn't be
doing it.
And I loved what you said aboutabusive partners put their own
(23:40):
needs first, because thatabsolutely makes it crystal
clear to me they have to win,they have to get what they want
at all costs.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
No matter what Right, and so he wins when he's sowing
those divisions right.
If he can get the kids on hisside, then he knows that mom is
going to stay because mom wouldnever leave her children.
That's the most important thingto her is her relationship with
the kids, and so him being ableto get them onto his side or
hurting them so that then shemakes sure that she does
(24:12):
anything and everything that hesays to prevent them from being
hurt, is his way of having thatpower and control.
And after separation, becauseall of these tactics can happen
while they're living with theabusive partner, and when the
relationship ends, the abusedoesn't end.
Maybe the physical abusetowards mom ends because he
doesn't have physical access toher, but there's still going to
(24:34):
be that emotional abuse, thatuse of the children.
Now, all of a sudden, thechildren might be the best and
easiest way for him to get ather, and so he's still using
that coercive control, thatverbal and emotional abuse, he
can strategically manipulatefamily and friends and the
community into conflict with mom, spreading lies and rumors, so
(24:55):
that now it's not just isolatingher from, maybe like some other
supports, but her family andher friends right, using that,
that gaslighting to control thenarrative, so that now everybody
in the community or in theextended family are seeing
what's happening.
And he's now saying again ohwell, she's alienating me from
the kids, when in fact she'sjust trying to protect them.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Okay, so we've talked a lot about the abuser.
Let's give some air time to thechildren and let's talk about
the short and long-term impactsof these actions and domestic
violence upon children.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Yes, so children are going to experience emotional
abuse when they are witnessingthe domestic violence and so
this is going to cause someemotional effects.
They're going to be feelingresponsible for the violence or
shame, that they come from aviolent home.
Maybe they feel guilt that theydidn't stop the abuse and they
(25:54):
felt responsible for notprotecting mom.
They could feel a lot of fearor confusion.
Confusion is actually verycommon, because how hard for
these children to see oh, thisis my dad and I love him, and
this is my dad and I hate whathe's doing.
You know, I've had kiddoclients who talk to me about how
they're really confused aboutthemselves and they think that
(26:16):
they can never feel angrybecause dad was always angry and
dad was.
Quote unquote bad and so I don'twanna be like dad so I can
never be angry.
But that's causing a lot ofemotional turmoil and not being
able to experience a normal,natural feeling of anger, which
is what everybody feels.
There can be a lot of isolationfor these children or kind of
(26:38):
feelings of numbness.
It's kind of their brains wayof checking out.
If I have to pay attentionright and really think about
what's happening in my family,then I'm going to be in pain and
so to protect myself I'm justnot going to think about it and
so we see a lot of avoidance.
We also see a lot of behaviorconcerns.
The children might becomephysically aggressive themselves
(27:00):
.
They might be acting out.
We see a lot of socialdifficulties with their friends.
Maybe it's like really intenserelationships, sleeping problems
, difficulty concentrating.
We see a lot of kids who aregoing through trauma, who maybe
appear like they have ADHD, withthat inattention and
hyperactivity.
We do see disordered eating,poor academic performance.
(27:23):
We know that there's acorrelation between asthma and
witnessing domestic violence inchildren.
I found some statistics that Ifind really staggering and awful
.
Children that grow up in a homewhere intimate partner violence
was present are 50 more timeslikely to abuse alcohol and
drugs, 74 times more likely tocommit crimes against other
(27:45):
people and six times more likelyto commit suicide.
I think that these areimportant, because this is not
saying that these are thesymptoms that they experience
when they're living in a homewith an abuser.
These are long-term impactsthat we're seeing, yeah, and
they're devastating.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Absolutely, and so helping children recover from
domestic violence should be ournumber one priority, because it
impacts not only their futurebut the future of the entire
community.
So you work with clients, bothwomen and children, at Genesis
as a licensed clinical socialworker.
How do you work with them tohelp them recognize what is
(28:23):
really happening, and what toolsor strategies do you provide to
them to counter these abusivetactics?
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Maria, I really love this question because I could
not do my job if there wasn'tany hope.
Hope for healing, right.
That's what keeps me in in thework in the field really being
able to recognize okay, what dowe do about this?
How can we help?
Like I mentioned, we can't stopthe abuse, but what we can do
is really provide that supportto mom and to the kids to be
(28:50):
able to get through it.
So a couple of things.
Number one we do attachmenttherapy at Genesis with a mom
and a child.
So we know that witnessingdomestic violence impacts not
only the kid and the mom butimpacts their relationship.
I mentioned earlier about howdad tries to undermine mom,
tries to tell the children liesabout mom, and so we really do
(29:11):
see that attachment or thatrelationship between the mother
and the child be hurt anddamaged.
And so being able to do somerepair work through attachment
therapy has been so healing forour moms and our kiddos.
We, of course, are doing traumaprocessing.
My team of counselors areamazing and they do a lot of
different evidence-based traumatherapies to help children be
(29:32):
able to heal from the abuse.
I want to be really clear.
We are never saying to childrenyour dad is bad, your dad is
mean, your mom is the good guy.
We're not here to convince themof that, but we're helping them
learn critical thinking skills.
If we can talk and teach themabout abuse, about respect,
(29:54):
about the impacts of trauma,then they themselves can see how
dad is responding, how dad isacting, and they get to decide
okay, this is okay or this isnot okay.
We work with kids who arealigned with dad.
We are not.
We are not here to convincethem that they're wrong and that
(30:14):
they should be you know theyshould be on mom's side at all
but really being able to teachchildren and moms about abuse,
about the red flags of abuse howdo you feel in your body when
you feel safe or when you don'tfeel safe.
We also do a lot of work withour moms.
When we see kids for counseling, we do what's called parent
consultations, where we'remeeting with moms individually
(30:38):
to be able to provide somesupport for her child.
And we also have parentingclasses and these classes and
our parent consults we reallyare focused on what are the
parenting skills that mom canuse, or the strategies that mom
can do to help kids heal fromdomestic violence and also can
combat the abusive behaviorsright?
(30:58):
So if you think about, for oneexample, an abusive dad in the
home, it's common for him tokind of be a little erratic
Again, going back to it's justin the moment.
Whatever his needs are, that'swhat he wants.
And so there might be timeswhen it's a little confusing for
kids because there's notconsistent rules.
And so one thing we talk aboutwith our moms is can you
(31:20):
implement consistent rules andboundaries that kids know what
to expect?
Because you don't know what toexpect from an abusive dad.
He might fly off the handle oneday on one thing and then
tomorrow that same thing doesn'tdo anything, or vice versa.
So really being able toencourage mom to use these
positive parenting skills andtechniques, teaching her how to
build connection with herchildren instead of using
(31:43):
coercion, helping her to showand express love instead of
instilling that fear is reallygoing to combat the domestic
violence that they'veexperienced.
When talking about the effectsof intimate partner violence on
children who witness it, we arealso not suggesting that a
father can never see hischildren again, right, we
understand that a lot of times,the majority of times, the the
(32:06):
abusive father is going to begranted custody or some type of
visitation with the children,and so we just would ask that
there be maybe some guidelinesto follow, right, to minimize
that risk of emotional andphysical harm.
So we like it when they're ableto get supervised visits,
because then we know that thereis an unbiased adult not mom and
(32:29):
not somebody from dad's family,but in a third person, a third
party, who will be able to makesure that the children are not
being abused by dad.
We talk about thinking aboutthe child's age when you're
thinking about visitation withdad.
The younger the child is, theless time they should be
separated from mom for a periodof time, and so really then
(32:50):
being able to titrate the lengthof the time with dad, the
frequency of the time with dad,and I would really hope that dad
would be.
If he really is wanting thesevisits with kids and he's saying
that it's for the children'sbenefit, then that means he's
willing to put in his work ofgoing to his own therapy,
(33:10):
attending parenting classes thatare specifically designed to
help traumatize children.
If he can do all of thosethings, that is going to provide
better outcomes for thechildren.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
I really appreciate that you emphasize that because
of dad doing his own work,because all of these things that
you just mentioned, that you doand your team does to work with
women and children who'veexperienced domestic violence,
it's work for them.
They have to work through theirtrauma, their skills and
practices and meditation and allkinds of things that you need
(33:43):
to do.
You have to practice it.
Dad's just going into courtscreaming parental alienation,
getting his way and then notdoing anything, not doing any of
the work, and it's not enoughto say that that's unfair.
It's just a really poor exampleof being human.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Absolutely, I agree, you know.
Again, going back to how westarted the conversation, if
children can have two healthyparents, then of course we're
going to have better lifelongoutcomes because they had two
healthy parents.
But a healthy parent, maria, issomebody who is willing to do
their own emotional work right,who is willing to compromise
(34:19):
with the other parent, who iswilling to put their own needs
to the side and to focus on whatis in the best interest truly
in the best interest of thechildren.
It is a parent who isemotionally safe, meaning that
they accept all of the child'sfeelings, whether that's anger
towards them or love towards theother parent.
(34:40):
Being able to really prioritizea child's emotional and
physical safety not just theirneeds but their safety,
encouraging the child to respectboth parents, not trying to
take the child away from theother parent that's what you are
if you're a healthy parentRight, exactly, real quick.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
you mentioned one thing.
I wanted to try to get anexample of it parenting
techniques to include connection.
Give us an example of how tobuild connection with a child.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Okay, oh, I have so many.
We know that it's reallyhelpful for child development,
for children to feel like theyare a part of something, that
they have a sense of belonging.
So if you can create familytraditions, family rituals, to
where, like, this is our secrethandshake, or this is our family
motto, or this is what we doevery night before bed, or this
is what we say to each otherthis is our secret handshake or
this is our family motto, orthis is what we do every night
(35:28):
before bed, or this is what wesay to each other, you know,
every morning before you go toschool, that is building that
connection, building thatrelationship, and the techniques
are going to depend on thechild's personality and the
child's age.
Right, for a five year old, youmight do a fun, secret little
handshake and that is the bestthing.
(35:48):
Right, for a five-year-old, youmight do a fun, secret little
handshake and that is the bestthing.
But try to do that with your15-year-old teenager and that's
not going to happen.
So you have to just be reallyindividualized in what's going
to work with the family.
I have several bookrecommendations, but different
ideas to be able to help momconnect.
So maybe it's.
Let's talk about physical touchand so for maybe for your
(36:09):
daughter doing her hair, is thatphysical touch in the morning
that she's getting?
But for the son, he doesn'treally want you to play with his
hair, but he'll give you a highfive, great, right.
So now we're doing physicaltouch.
We talk about physicalproximity.
When you're sitting on thecouch with your kids and you're
watching a movie, can maybe youjust be like sitting close to
each other instead of on twoopposite ends of the couch?
(36:31):
Let's say the teenage boy isplaying video games, can mom
pause what she's doing, takefive minutes out of the day to
go and sit next to him?
Hey, tell me about your videogame that you're playing, and
maybe he's going to be like, bequiet, mom, I'm concentrating or
whatever.
Like I get that.
(36:52):
But if she can just sit next tohim and maybe like her knee is
touching his knee and that'sthat connection that she's
building with him.
So lots of different examplesof how she can implement just
these tiny, free, right, easythings to do to help build that
connection so that the childdoes feel safe and seen and
heard.
There's this analogy that Iheard, and I'm sure it's in one
of the thousands of parentingbooks that I've read and I can't
(37:13):
remember which book it's comingfrom now at this point, so I
apologize, but I love thisanalogy that parenting and
having open communication islike going fishing.
When you go fishing, you haveto throw out the line over and
over again before you get a bite.
With parenting, it's the sameidea.
You have to just keep trying.
You have to throw out that line.
Hey, how was your day at schooltoday?
Hey, what did you learn today?
(37:34):
Hey, I'm thinking about you.
I know you have a really bigday at school.
All of these little things thatwe're just trying, and most of
the time you know how kids are.
Fine, I didn't learn anything,nothing.
There's like one, two wordanswers.
But eventually, if they see theconsistent effort that mom is
putting into of building arelationship when you least
(37:56):
expect it, they're going tostart opening up and they're
going to start talking For somany reasons you're so right,
not the least of which is kidsare incredible observers.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
They see everything, even if you don't know that
they're watching or listening orsensing what's going on.
So, yes, they will recognize ifyou are trying to reach them,
and it may take time with somekids.
Some kids are more responsive,but most of the time they will
connect with you by just by youtrying to cast that line, as you
(38:28):
said.
And everything that you saidgoes back to the point of being
a human being, because beinghuman connection is what makes
us strong, connecting with eachother.
And so these are excellentexamples of how anyone listening
, who just wants to connect witha child, or maybe even is
experiencing domestic violence.
Ruth is an expert and that'swhy we love bringing her on the
(38:54):
show to talk about her work inthese really important topics.
There's more information on ourwebsite and always good to be
with you, ruth.
Excellent Thank you for havingme, genesis.
Women's Shelter and Supportexists to give women in abusive
situations a way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
(39:14):
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
domestic violence.
You can learn more atgenesisshelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
Genesis Women's Shelter and on Xat Genesis Shelter.
The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, 7 days
(39:35):
a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.
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