September 22, 2025 • 29 mins
What happens when the person who claims to love you systematically dismantles your sense of reality? Tiffany Tate, CEO of The Family Place in Dallas and a survivor of narcissistic abuse, bravely shares her story for the first time on this powerful episode.
"When you don't trust the thoughts that are in your head, that is very, very hard to recover from," Tiffany reveals, describing her decade-long journey through a relationship that left her constantly questioning her sanity. Despite her professional background as a licensed clinical social worker, she found herself trapped in the fog of manipulation, gaslighting, and emotional control—proof that narcissistic abuse can happen to anyone, regardless of education or awareness.
The conversation cuts through the pop culture misuse of "narcissist" to clarify crucial distinctions: narcissist as a label, narcissism as a trait, and Narcissistic Personality Disorder as a clinical diagnosis requiring specific criteria. Tiffany explains how these behaviors escalate into abuse when consistently used to strip away a partner's independence and autonomy, often invisible to outsiders as narcissists masterfully present different faces to different audiences.
For those currently navigating relationships with narcissistic partners, Tiffany offers practical strategies that saved her: the "gray rock technique" of minimal emotional response, limiting personal disclosures that could be weaponized, and anchoring through journaling to validate experiences when gaslit. She also discusses available therapeutic interventions and the complex challenges of treating narcissistic offenders, whose lack of empathy and insight make meaningful change difficult.
This episode provides not just understanding but actionable resources for survivors, from recommended books and support communities to safety planning strategies. Whether you're questioning your own relationship dynamics or supporting someone who might be experiencing narcissistic abuse, this conversation offers validation, clarity, and pathways toward healing.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Pop culture has exploited the term narcissist in
recent years, allowing thatlabel to be both overused and
adjusted to fit a spectrum ofindividuals and agendas.
But ask any survivor andthey'll tell you.
Narcissist behavior is real andit's a menacing set of traits
that range from mild to severeand, in some cases, result in
extreme cruelty and abuse.
Most experts agree that thenarcissist displays behaviors of
(00:29):
having a huge sense ofself-importance, a constant need
for admiration, lack of empathy, sense of entitlement and
manipulative or exploitiveconduct.
But even that seemingly simpleexplanation presents on a
continuum that can bechallenging to navigate.
Tiffany Tate, ceo of the FamilyPlace in Dallas, texas, and a
(00:49):
survivor herself, joins theconversation to explore the
depths of this insidiousbehavior and what you can do
about it.
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis, the podcast.
Tiffany Tate is a licensedclinical social worker.
Board approved supervisor,joined the family place in june
2014 following a 20-year careerin non-profit social services.
(01:14):
Prior to the family place,tiffany worked at agencies
addressing the needs of abusedwomen and children, persons with
severe mental illness and thehomeless.
At the family place, tiffanywas Chief Client Services
Officer, chief Operating Officerand Interim CEO before being
promoted to her current positionin July 2024.
(01:34):
Tiffany earned bachelor'sdegrees in psychology and
sociology from Spelman Collegeand a master's degree in social
work from the University ofTexas at Arlington.
Her extensive backgroundincludes experience in program
design, development andimplementation, community and
organizational needs assessments, services and grants,
(01:55):
coordination, staff developmentand behavioral health.
Tiffany, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Thank you so much for having me, Maria.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
It's good to be with you.
Genesis and the Family Placehave a long history as partners
in the Dallas community,supporting the health and safety
of domestic violence survivors,as well as leading the effort
to create awareness about andend abuse of women and children,
and you are fully enlightenedon domestic violence due to this
work and your work as alicensed clinical social worker
(02:24):
supervisor.
And yet today we're here totalk about not just your work in
support of survivors, whichyou've done for more than 20
years, but your own journey ofliving with an abusive partner.
Can you share with us whathappened to you?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yes, so first I want to start again by just thanking
you for allowing me to share mystory.
It's the first time I'm sharingit in full, so I'm a bit
nervous about it, oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Okay, well, we all support you and it's a pleasure
to get to know you and hear yourstory, so thank you in advance
for bringing it to me and to ouraudience.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Thank you so much.
I understand the importance ofvalidating this experience for
people who may be going throughit, so I think it's important to
note that, because of what Iexperienced for so long, I just
wanted to remain quiet and a lotof times it was because I
questioned my own reality.
But one day I was randomlylistening to the radio and I
heard the saying the person whoholds the narrative holds the
(03:19):
power.
So, despite my fear aroundsharing it, I decided like that,
I own the story and I don'twant to share it because it may
help others.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
That's amazing.
So thank you again for havingme.
It's very important.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
So what happened to me?
I was involved in arelationship and very early on I
saw the signs distortion inconversations, lying, a real
exaggerated sense of self andhis role in other people's lives
, and then constant changes tohis living situation.
Lots of early gaslighting thatI fell for, really because of
how he presented himself.
(03:51):
But also, you know,narcissistic people prey on
weaknesses.
So I inadvertently presentedmyself at the time as an
uninformed, unskilled parentthat needed someone to help fix
me and my children's lives.
During that time I had an olderchild who was going through
some personal struggles and Ididn't have contact with him off
(04:12):
and on for periods of time andI was vulnerable about what I
now know is an enmeshedrelationship with my daughter.
We are extremely close witheach other, but when I talked to
him about it, I expressed avulnerability and so he
positioned himself as like thesavior for my children and also
from my children, who heconstantly termed as taking
advantage of me.
(04:32):
So how all of that manifestedin the relationship is really an
invalidation for having needsor expressing myself.
I learned not to express myselfor to have any needs at all.
My reality constantlychallenged, minimized my work
accomplishments to not offendhim.
So as I progressed through mycareer or wanted to return to
(04:53):
school, I knew that that wouldbe perceived as a threat, so I
had to minimize that, always afear around his interactions
with others, particularly insocial environments.
So in restaurants I was alwayson guard inside, worried that he
would explode on the waiter andwhen I say exploded, you
wouldn't see anything visual butlike a very stern talking to
that was oftentimes unwarranted,so I was always in a space of
(05:16):
having to make sure I had aresponse or a fix for those
kinds of situations.
Again, I experienced also shame, because I do this work and
like how did I stay in therelationship so long?
And I think most significantlyis the guilt I feel for how this
relationship harmed my children.
I knew that his behavior wasinappropriate, but he also had
(05:37):
an awareness of it.
So he did it out of sight ofother people, which left me
without support or validationfor what I was experiencing,
right, because no one else sawit.
So if I would in the beginningstart to question things, people
would say, oh, absolutely not.
Like, he's not that way.
You know, they have the abilityto be chameleons, like
shapeshifters, right To appearone way internally and another
(05:59):
way.
Externally, everyone acted asif they thought he was amazing,
but since the end of therelationship, I've learned that
it was really to decreaseconflict with him or because
they were afraid of retaliation.
There have been people who'vereached out to me people from
his childhood, people that wereclose to him in other arenas and
they've really validated mythoughts, so that was helpful.
(06:20):
I think the last thing to noteis that I really continue to
struggle which I'm sure mostsurvivors do with the fact that
it wasn't bad all the time.
Right, there were times that welaughed, there were shared
experiences, there were travel,but what I've realized over time
is that the good times werejust enough to replant the
self-doubt, meaning that if thetime was good or if we engage in
(06:44):
a time period that was good, itwould make me question whether
all the bad experiences I hadwere really real or to control
me right.
There were a few times that Iset a boundary in response to
his behavior and he perceivedthat to be a threat, so then he
would infuse a good experience,like we're going to go on a trip
or we're going to go to aconcert.
So lots of manipulation that Iexperienced early on.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
It all sounds so calculated and I'm familiar with
the term narcissism andnarcissist and there are a
couple of different terms herethat we're going to unpack but
it sounds so calculated anddeliberate and intentional.
Is that how you experienced itas being intentional?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
There's so many ways to answer that question, but
what I will say is it isintentional in as much as the
narcissist needs to get hisneeds met.
So I do not believe that aperson who has narcissistic
behaviors or personalitydisorder wakes up in the morning
and says I'm going to make thisperson's life miserable, but it
is a pattern of behavior thatallows them to get their needs
(07:45):
met, which is oftentimes justbased in insecurity.
So, with work or as I was movingup in my career in education.
If he is insecure about that,then what do I need to do?
Make her feel guilty about that?
So she'll minimize it.
So I think it is intentional,but the end result is for them
to have their own needs met.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
I know you're right and youhave so much experience in this
area, so it's amazing to hearnot just your personal story but
how you are able to interpretit now and really reflect upon
what happened to you, and so Iguess we can say your ex was a
narcissist, right?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Let me clarify that I am not calling him a narcissist
.
I don't believe that he hasever been to anyone who is
licensed to label him anarcissist.
What I am saying is that, withmy professional experience and
living in the household with him, he is someone that greatly
evidenced narcissisticpersonality disorder Got it and
as popular, if you will, as thatterm narcissist has become
(08:45):
lately.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
it can often be misunderstood or behaviors
mislabeled.
Can you help us understand thedifference between the terms
narcissist, narcissism andnarcissistic personality
disorder, as well as thebehaviors or signs that identify
these types of individuals?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yes, the most important part of this
discussion is that it'simportant to understand that
narcissism is on a spectrum, soit's not.
You either are a narcissist oryou're not Right.
If you think of it this way,narcissist is a label,
narcissism is a trait that canrange from healthy to unhealthy,
and then narcissisticpersonality disorder is a
clinical disorder.
(09:21):
So when someone calls someone anarcissist, it's generally a
term that's used to describesomeone who's self-centered or
arrogant.
Right, these people talk aboutthemselves.
You've seen those movies wherepeople are on dates at the table
and the guy is just talkingabout himself all the time.
They talk about theirachievements, whether they're
real or imagined, and they seekattention and they do not like
(09:41):
criticism.
They can be annoying orfrustrating, but they don't
always cause harm, right, whenyou think about the label
narcissist, some behaviors orsigns are constantly talking
about themselves, exaggeratingtheir achievements, craving
attention and admiration.
They struggle to empathize withothers or they use empathy as a
manipulation tactic, and thenthey become defensive or angry
when given feedback, becausethey view all feedback as
(10:03):
criticism if it's not inagreement.
So that's narcissist.
Let's talk about narcissism.
That is a set of personalitytraits for someone who has an
intense desire to be recognized.
So lots of self-focus andneeding attention.
A little bit of a step up fromnarcissist, because these are
personality traits which meansthey're ongoing and you see them
pretty consistently.
On the healthy side it can looklike confidence and pride.
(10:26):
On the unhealthy side it canlook like entitlement,
manipulation and lack ofaccountability.
So to move even further,narcissistic personality
disorder is a mental healthdiagnosis.
It's an ongoing rigid patternof grandiosity, need for
admiration and lack of realempathy empathy.
So when you are using thediagnostic manual, which is what
(10:47):
psychiatrists and psychologistsuse to diagnose someone, there
are nine characteristics in thenarcissistic personality
disorder scope to be diagnosedwith.
You have to have five of thenine.
So the nine are exaggeratedsense of self-importance,
fantasies about unlimitedsuccess, power, beauty, love.
They believe that they'respecial and only understood by
(11:09):
high status people.
They require excessiveadmiration.
They have a sense ofentitlement.
They exploit others forpersonal gain.
They lack empathy.
They're often envious of othersor believes others envy them
and their arrogant, egotisticaland conceited behaviors or
attitudes.
So if you have five of thosenine things, you get the
(11:30):
diagnosis.
In my experience my partner hadall but one and that was lax
empathy.
But the empathy was only usedfor manipulation, there was
never a true empathy.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
That's incredible.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
That's what I experienced is the narcissistic
personality disorder, and it'sreally damaging to relationships
and families.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Thank you for clarifying all of that.
Just to recap narcissist label,narcissism behavior,
narcissistic personalitydisorder, diagnosis and I think
those are really importantdistinctions for us to make,
because we're seeing these termsto the extent on social media
and on the internet and lots ofother places where they become
(12:13):
interchangeable, misunderstood,misused and diluted.
It's not clear really what thatmeans and I think very often I
need to be set straight andreminded what the terms are and
what they mean and occasionallyrevisit things with Dr Romney so
that I know what I'm talkingabout.
So I'm glad you kind of gave usall that clarification.
(12:34):
Thank you for that.
For some people the experiencescan be subtle and for others,
as in your case, perhaps moreovert and for others, as in your
case, perhaps more overt.
So when do the behaviors crossthe line and become abuse?
Speaker 2 (12:48):
We talked about just the definition of narcissism and
the definition of abuse is adeliberate pattern of control,
degradation or harm, whetherphysical, emotional, financial
or sexual right.
So the intersection of those iswhen narcissistic behaviors are
consistently used to manipulate, intimidate or strip away a
(13:09):
partner's independence, we wouldconsider them abusive.
We can all experience anarcissistic person Like we
talked about.
You go on a first date and youencounter this person and you're
sitting at the table togetherand that's all that they can
talk about is themselves.
But when those behaviors areconsistently applied and there's
a resulting power imbalance,that's abuse.
The power imbalance isn'talways noticeable.
(13:31):
It could just be that thevictim starts to shrink
themselves, but when that doeshappen, that's considered abuse.
The hallmark of abusivenarcissistic dynamics is when
the partner loses their sense ofsafety, self-worth and autonomy
.
You lose who you are as aperson.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah, no identity and feeling fearful.
I think feeling fear is one ofthe sure signs that you may be
in an abusive relationship andsomething needs to be looked at,
because you should never beafraid with your intimate
partner.
You're a professional, licensedclinical social worker.
What is available to survivorsof these forms of abuse and what
(14:08):
type of interventions do youtypically recommend, and how
might those be helpful?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
I'd offer three types that are extremely helpful and
either independently or allcombined.
The first is individual therapy.
What individual therapy will dois really help you restore
trust in your own perceptions,because with the gaslighting you
really do question a lot oftimes whether basic everyday
things are real or make sense.
It also helps you to reduceyour trauma symptoms and really
(14:35):
develop coping skills around theabuse that you experienced.
But survivors don't need justtherapy.
It's a multi-layeredintervention that will help them
navigate through this process.
The goal is to recover, toreclaim our voice and our
autonomy and then have abrighter future.
The second, and one of the mostimportant for me, is support
groups or peer communities.
Narcissistic abusers are knownfor alienating survivors from
(14:59):
their community of support.
It happens slowly.
You just kind of notice thatpeople that were once there are
no longer there anymore, andthat happens because sometimes
the abuser wants tointentionally isolate you.
But sometimes it's because theabuser's behaviors are so
extreme that people voluntarilydisengage, and that's a great
way for the abuser to turn itaround on the other person.
(15:19):
Your friends, who you think areyour friends, don't even care
about you.
And you don't know at the timethat your friends are like.
What are you doing with?
this person Right.
So I remember, regardingsupport groups, when I first
disengaged, I spent hours everyday just listening to stories of
survivors of this type of abuseand I remember people saying
it's time to move on, stoplistening to that negativity.
(15:41):
But I needed that to understand.
I wasn't crazy.
It's kind of like youunderstand that when there's
community, when other people arehaving similar experiences or
are telling you this was notimaginary, this was real what
you experienced.
So it helped me not question myreality.
The third point I would say ispsychoeducation.
It's important to learn aboutnarcissism gaslighting, coercive
(16:02):
control and trauma bonding,because it gives you a language
to describe your experience.
I know even now, sometimes I'mhaving a conversation and I want
to explain or express whathappened and I just I don't know
the words to do it because itall seems like it's not real.
A lot of the times, and I wasvery much trauma bonded.
Every time he didn't get a jobhe applied for, every time an
(16:24):
external relationship of hisdidn't work out, it was my
perception that either one theother person was wrong or two,
that if I could just get himover the hump, everything would
be better and he would see andunderstand my value, because at
that point in the relationshipmy value was tied to who he was
as a person, or his validation.
Psychoeducation really helpsreduce self-blame and increases
(16:47):
clarity, which is often stolenby their manipulation.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Are those all forms of therapy that you're able to
offer at the Family Place?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yes, absolutely.
We offer support groups,individual therapy and
psychoeducation.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
We do similar at Genesis.
I know we have a longpartnership together, 40 years
maybe more.
I'm not sure this is our 40thanniversary year.
How long has the family placebeen around?
45 years, 45 years.
You're our big sisters.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Well, a little bit.
I think our longtime leadersPaige and Jan were sisters in
the fight for a very, very longtime.
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Yeah, we're here just to carry on that legacy, of
course.
So, all of that being said, allof the experiences this went on
for you for 10 years right,when a partner chooses to stay
in the relationship with anarcissist for whatever reason,
even if that decision istemporary, what tools or skills
(17:42):
will benefit their own healthand safety as they navigate the
relationship?
In other words, some peoplearen't ready to leave.
Some people are reflecting,they're taking a closer look at
what's happening to them andthey may be getting that
psychoeducation that youmentioned in the process of
trying to understand what isgoing on here.
And people may think, well, whyis she staying with him if he's
(18:04):
so abusive?
But you need time and you needa safety plan, and there are
tools and skills that I know weteach at Genesis and I'm sure
you teach at the Family Placethat can help people navigate
this.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yes, and, if you don't mind, I want to just
comment on one thing you saidThank you for clarifying the
choice to leave, just really anunderstanding that sometimes it
could be because of financialsituations, because of your
family, because of culturalreasons that people don't leave.
But I also really want to beclear so that people who are
experiencing this can bevalidated in this way.
When you are in thesesituations, you do not realize
(18:40):
that anything is wrong.
You do not realize thatanything is wrong, and the times
that you feel bad or you feelsad, you associate that with not
having done enough for theabuser or not keeping the
environment calm.
I spent so much time trying tolevel out the emotional tone of
(19:02):
my household, just making sureeverything stayed even and calm,
so I didn't necessarily thinkthat was wrong.
I just thought that every timeit didn't work, I had failed at
doing it Right.
So when people are saying abouta choice to leave, I think one
of the first things that happenswith non-physical domestic
violence is you have to identifythere's a problem, and that's
why it takes longer with this,because really you're just
gaslit to the point that youeven question your own thoughts
(19:22):
and beliefs, right, yeah?
Speaker 1 (19:24):
So yes, that's a good distinction, because there's a
whole spectrum of abuse, there'sa whole spectrum of experiences
, so thank you for pointing thatout.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yeah, and safety planning, of course, like you
mentioned, is huge in our world,right, but it's very important
to know your next steps and havethem written out for you so
that if you're ever in that kindof mode where you can't think
for yourself or can't figure outwhat to do, you don't have much
time you can look at a sheet ofpaper that tells you this is my
next step, this is where I go,this is where I put my keys,
this is who's going to pick upmy children if I don't pick them
(19:52):
up for school.
So just that kind of plan.
The second piece that isinteresting to me I learned that
this process is called the grayrock technique and it was
really thought of by a mentalhealth blogger by the name of
Skylar.
I don't know her last name, butI'm forever grateful.
But it's really a way that youset an emotional boundary.
Gray rock method, or gray rocktechnique, is responding with
(20:13):
minimal emotion and detail.
So when you are engaging withyour abuser, it is yes, it is no
, it is okay.
When they're trying to bait youinto conflict, right, which is
pretty regular.
So you limit disclosures.
Narcissists prey onvulnerability, so you try to
share as little personalvulnerability as possible
because they weaponize thatweakness.
(20:33):
So just remembering a lot oftimes when you're being baited,
you know when it's happeningjust minimize the amount of
conversation and feedback yougive.
And then the third is reallyanchoring.
For me it was journaling, likejournal, journal, journal and,
if that's not your thing, just away to record your experience,
to help validate what'shappening to you.
I was able sometimes to go backto things when I was gaslit and
(20:56):
I would say like, oh, thatreally did happen.
You know it did happen becauseon this date I wrote it down and
it helped me really feel like Iwasn't crazy.
Also, personal affirmations I'mnot crazy, my experiences are
real.
That helps a lot as well.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah, I've heard a lot of people, a lot of
survivors, talk about the crazymaking.
I think in one way, it's notthe best way to say it, but it
is a good way to describe itbecause it feels exactly like
that.
Let's just circle back to yourpersonal experience for a moment
.
Do you feel like you havehealed from that relationship?
Is healing truly possible forsurvivors?
(21:32):
And I think healing is aconditional term.
It's different for everybody,and if you don't like that term,
when would you know that you'reon the other side of something
like this?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
I honestly, some days I don't feel like I'll ever
heal or be on the other side.
It can take years to reallyfully recover from the damage
that's done, just because of thepsychological manipulation.
I mean that is the hardest part.
When you don't trust thethoughts that are in your head,
that is very, very hard torecover from.
I feel like I have a toe on theother side because I'm doing
(22:07):
things like having theseconversations and I'm able to
support people through a peersupport group, but I am not
healed.
I'm triggered daily in myeveryday life.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
I'm so sorry to hear that and I hope that this is a
good experience for you, kind ofbeing able to talk about your
story in a supportiveenvironment, because we support
you and, of course, the firstrule of working with survivors
is to believe her right, and weknow that your experience
happened.
You are not crazy and you arevery much doing, I think, what
(22:39):
you were called to do.
Your purpose is to help othersand support others who have
similar experiences.
Changing subjects for a momentand looking at the abuser what
are the treatment modalities fornarcissistic offenders and do
they work?
Speaker 2 (23:00):
So interventions for people with narcissistic traits
or narcissistic personalitydisorder are complex, because
one of the core features ofnarcissism is lack of insight
and resistance to admittingproblems.
So if you have this lack ofinsight and you can't identify
what the problem is, how wouldyou ever seek help voluntarily?
Narcissists typically come totherapy because they've been
(23:21):
court-ordered to do so, becauseof a legal or professional
conflict or relationshipbreakdown.
Partner to a narcissist may sayI'm not going to stay with you
unless you go to therapy.
And if their existence is builton that partner, either
financially or from apresentation perspective, like
how the world perceives them,they will commit to do it that
way.
Research indicates that themost effective intervention is
(23:44):
long-term psychotherapy.
But change is really only aspossible as much as they want to
invest in it.
But you also have to rememberthat when it's a personality
disorder, the change or the workhas to benefit them.
That's how they will receive itand that's the only way they'll
participate in it.
And so I'll give you an example.
(24:04):
A narcissistic partner can learnthat when they call you stupid,
you don't like it right.
So if they choose to stop,they'll stop calling you stupid,
but they will not feel theemotion of it.
It's only because a consequencehas been applied in that
setting and that skill is nottransferable.
So I can say it doesn't benefitme as a survivor to say to a
(24:25):
narcissistic personalitydisorder when you call me stupid
, it makes me feel bad.
They don't connect with that.
You don't call me stupid again,or I'm going to leave you and
this won't be met and this won'tbe met and this won't be met.
That's what they register with.
So their brain tells them OK,if I call her stupid, then the
paycheck stop or the taking careof the children stops or
(24:45):
whatever.
It is the way that you supporttheir behavior that will stop.
That is how the behaviorchanges.
But even those small changesalone require persistence and
accountability.
Like, the progress with thesetype of people is often slow and
uneven, but research varies onwhether you can be cured from it
or not.
Like, most people say no, youcan't right, it's a personality
(25:06):
disorder.
But I think there are ways thatpeople can choose to change
behaviors with that person thatthey are interacting in.
Again, it's important to knowit's not transferable.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Yeah, that's really eye-opening what you shared
there, and I think the veryfirst step has to come from that
person being open to evenreceiving any type of
information that would benegative or about changing their
own personality.
So that is incrediblychallenging and not having
people like that in your lifewould be key right to not having
(25:37):
to be on the other side of thisat any point.
What resources would yourecommend for listeners who want
to explore this topic,especially those who might be
experiencing abuse from anarcissistic partner?
Speaker 2 (25:51):
First, I would always emphasize safety right.
If you are searching on theinternet, clear your browser
history, use safe devices, avoidleaving books or emails where
your partner can find them.
But I look at help in threedifferent ways.
The first is education, crisisand healing.
So for education, there are acouple of things I'll tell you
real briefly and I hope we canpost them at the end because
(26:12):
it's a lot of information.
But there's a Dr Les Carter thathas a YouTube channel that
speaks about all phases ofnarcissism and helps with
identification and movement awayfrom narcissists.
It's called SurvivingNarcissism TV.
And another website resource isOut of the Fog and that helps
(26:33):
family members and loved ones ofpeople who suffer with
personality disorders.
But on that website there aretons of toolkits that are
helpful when you're in crisis.
The National Domestic Hotlineright National Domestic Violence
Hotline but also localproviders like Genesis in the
Family Place, can be helpful Forhealing.
I would say Therapy, supportGroups and Education.
One of the best books I haveever read is it's Not you
Identifying and Healing fromNarcissistic People by Dr Romani
(26:55):
.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yes, she's fantastic, she's amazing.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
I love it and it's so interesting because I heard her
audio book first and then Iwent and bought the book and
then was highlighting it, soit's a huge tool for me.
But what I love about it isthat she shifts the focus from
why does he do that?
To how to help the survivorheal, and that's so important
because there's so much timespent trying to understand or
rationalize the reasons behindhis behaviors that we lose sight
(27:21):
of the victim who experiencedthe behaviors most intimately
and deeply, and really that'swhere we need to focus, right, I
love that about her work.
And then there's a couple offolks on Instagram that I find
extremely helpful when I justneed that kind of quick dopamine
hit.
One is how to Love a BatteredWoman.
It's a narcissistic, abusiverecovery coach.
Another one is WEAV.
(27:42):
W-e-a-v Told Me how to NavigateBreakups and Narcissistic Abuse
.
And the last one I'll give youis Daniel Chidiak.
I went and tried to listen tohow he's saying his name
professionally, but it'sC-H-I-D-I-A-C, and he has a show
and a podcast and an Instagrampage called the Way Through, and
really those are just quicksound bites of like do you feel
(28:04):
that you're going crazy becausethis happened?
And no, you aren't going crazy.
So just those quickmotivational pieces are often
necessary sometimes.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Those are so interesting.
I'm going to have to look themup and, yeah, we can share those
links in the notes when theepisode goes live.
Tiffany Tate, it's been apleasure to speak with you.
Thank you for being on the showand for sharing your story with
us.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Thank you so much for having me.
I appreciate the platform.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Genesis Women's Shelter and Support exists to
give women in abusive situationsa way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
(28:47):
domestic violence.
You can learn more atGenesisShelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
Genesis Women's Shelter and on Xat Genesis Shelter the Genesis,
seven days a week, by call ortext at 214-946-HELP
214-946-4357.
Pop culture has exploited the term narcissist in
recent years, allowing thatlabel to be both overused and
adjusted to fit a spectrum ofindividuals and agendas.
But ask any survivor andthey'll tell you.
Narcissist behavior is real andit's a menacing set of traits
that range from mild to severeand, in some cases, result in
extreme cruelty and abuse.
Most experts agree that thenarcissist displays behaviors of
(00:29):
having a huge sense ofself-importance, a constant need
for admiration, lack of empathy, sense of entitlement and
manipulative or exploitiveconduct.
But even that seemingly simpleexplanation presents on a
continuum that can bechallenging to navigate.
Tiffany Tate, ceo of the FamilyPlace in Dallas, texas, and a
(00:49):
survivor herself, joins theconversation to explore the
depths of this insidiousbehavior and what you can do
about it.
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis, the podcast.
Tiffany Tate is a licensedclinical social worker.
Board approved supervisor,joined the family place in june
2014 following a 20-year careerin non-profit social services.
(01:14):
Prior to the family place,tiffany worked at agencies
addressing the needs of abusedwomen and children, persons with
severe mental illness and thehomeless.
At the family place, tiffanywas Chief Client Services
Officer, chief Operating Officerand Interim CEO before being
promoted to her current positionin July 2024.
(01:34):
Tiffany earned bachelor'sdegrees in psychology and
sociology from Spelman Collegeand a master's degree in social
work from the University ofTexas at Arlington.
Her extensive backgroundincludes experience in program
design, development andimplementation, community and
organizational needs assessments, services and grants,
(01:55):
coordination, staff developmentand behavioral health.
Tiffany, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Thank you so much for having me, Maria.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
It's good to be with you.
Genesis and the Family Placehave a long history as partners
in the Dallas community,supporting the health and safety
of domestic violence survivors,as well as leading the effort
to create awareness about andend abuse of women and children,
and you are fully enlightenedon domestic violence due to this
work and your work as alicensed clinical social worker
(02:24):
supervisor.
And yet today we're here totalk about not just your work in
support of survivors, whichyou've done for more than 20
years, but your own journey ofliving with an abusive partner.
Can you share with us whathappened to you?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yes, so first I want to start again by just thanking
you for allowing me to share mystory.
It's the first time I'm sharingit in full, so I'm a bit
nervous about it, oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Okay, well, we all support you and it's a pleasure
to get to know you and hear yourstory, so thank you in advance
for bringing it to me and to ouraudience.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Thank you so much.
I understand the importance ofvalidating this experience for
people who may be going throughit, so I think it's important to
note that, because of what Iexperienced for so long, I just
wanted to remain quiet and a lotof times it was because I
questioned my own reality.
But one day I was randomlylistening to the radio and I
heard the saying the person whoholds the narrative holds the
(03:19):
power.
So, despite my fear aroundsharing it, I decided like that,
I own the story and I don'twant to share it because it may
help others.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
That's amazing.
So thank you again for havingme.
It's very important.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
So what happened to me?
I was involved in arelationship and very early on I
saw the signs distortion inconversations, lying, a real
exaggerated sense of self andhis role in other people's lives
, and then constant changes tohis living situation.
Lots of early gaslighting thatI fell for, really because of
how he presented himself.
(03:51):
But also, you know,narcissistic people prey on
weaknesses.
So I inadvertently presentedmyself at the time as an
uninformed, unskilled parentthat needed someone to help fix
me and my children's lives.
During that time I had an olderchild who was going through
some personal struggles and Ididn't have contact with him off
(04:12):
and on for periods of time andI was vulnerable about what I
now know is an enmeshedrelationship with my daughter.
We are extremely close witheach other, but when I talked to
him about it, I expressed avulnerability and so he
positioned himself as like thesavior for my children and also
from my children, who heconstantly termed as taking
advantage of me.
(04:32):
So how all of that manifestedin the relationship is really an
invalidation for having needsor expressing myself.
I learned not to express myselfor to have any needs at all.
My reality constantlychallenged, minimized my work
accomplishments to not offendhim.
So as I progressed through mycareer or wanted to return to
(04:53):
school, I knew that that wouldbe perceived as a threat, so I
had to minimize that, always afear around his interactions
with others, particularly insocial environments.
So in restaurants I was alwayson guard inside, worried that he
would explode on the waiter andwhen I say exploded, you
wouldn't see anything visual butlike a very stern talking to
that was oftentimes unwarranted,so I was always in a space of
(05:16):
having to make sure I had aresponse or a fix for those
kinds of situations.
Again, I experienced also shame, because I do this work and
like how did I stay in therelationship so long?
And I think most significantlyis the guilt I feel for how this
relationship harmed my children.
I knew that his behavior wasinappropriate, but he also had
(05:37):
an awareness of it.
So he did it out of sight ofother people, which left me
without support or validationfor what I was experiencing,
right, because no one else sawit.
So if I would in the beginningstart to question things, people
would say, oh, absolutely not.
Like, he's not that way.
You know, they have the abilityto be chameleons, like
shapeshifters, right To appearone way internally and another
(05:59):
way.
Externally, everyone acted asif they thought he was amazing,
but since the end of therelationship, I've learned that
it was really to decreaseconflict with him or because
they were afraid of retaliation.
There have been people who'vereached out to me people from
his childhood, people that wereclose to him in other arenas and
they've really validated mythoughts, so that was helpful.
(06:20):
I think the last thing to noteis that I really continue to
struggle which I'm sure mostsurvivors do with the fact that
it wasn't bad all the time.
Right, there were times that welaughed, there were shared
experiences, there were travel,but what I've realized over time
is that the good times werejust enough to replant the
self-doubt, meaning that if thetime was good or if we engage in
(06:44):
a time period that was good, itwould make me question whether
all the bad experiences I hadwere really real or to control
me right.
There were a few times that Iset a boundary in response to
his behavior and he perceivedthat to be a threat, so then he
would infuse a good experience,like we're going to go on a trip
or we're going to go to aconcert.
So lots of manipulation that Iexperienced early on.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
It all sounds so calculated and I'm familiar with
the term narcissism andnarcissist and there are a
couple of different terms herethat we're going to unpack but
it sounds so calculated anddeliberate and intentional.
Is that how you experienced itas being intentional?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
There's so many ways to answer that question, but
what I will say is it isintentional in as much as the
narcissist needs to get hisneeds met.
So I do not believe that aperson who has narcissistic
behaviors or personalitydisorder wakes up in the morning
and says I'm going to make thisperson's life miserable, but it
is a pattern of behavior thatallows them to get their needs
(07:45):
met, which is oftentimes justbased in insecurity.
So, with work or as I was movingup in my career in education.
If he is insecure about that,then what do I need to do?
Make her feel guilty about that?
So she'll minimize it.
So I think it is intentional,but the end result is for them
to have their own needs met.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
I know you're right and youhave so much experience in this
area, so it's amazing to hearnot just your personal story but
how you are able to interpretit now and really reflect upon
what happened to you, and so Iguess we can say your ex was a
narcissist, right?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Let me clarify that I am not calling him a narcissist
.
I don't believe that he hasever been to anyone who is
licensed to label him anarcissist.
What I am saying is that, withmy professional experience and
living in the household with him, he is someone that greatly
evidenced narcissisticpersonality disorder Got it and
as popular, if you will, as thatterm narcissist has become
(08:45):
lately.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
it can often be misunderstood or behaviors
mislabeled.
Can you help us understand thedifference between the terms
narcissist, narcissism andnarcissistic personality
disorder, as well as thebehaviors or signs that identify
these types of individuals?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yes, the most important part of this
discussion is that it'simportant to understand that
narcissism is on a spectrum, soit's not.
You either are a narcissist oryou're not Right.
If you think of it this way,narcissist is a label,
narcissism is a trait that canrange from healthy to unhealthy,
and then narcissisticpersonality disorder is a
clinical disorder.
(09:21):
So when someone calls someone anarcissist, it's generally a
term that's used to describesomeone who's self-centered or
arrogant.
Right, these people talk aboutthemselves.
You've seen those movies wherepeople are on dates at the table
and the guy is just talkingabout himself all the time.
They talk about theirachievements, whether they're
real or imagined, and they seekattention and they do not like
(09:41):
criticism.
They can be annoying orfrustrating, but they don't
always cause harm, right, whenyou think about the label
narcissist, some behaviors orsigns are constantly talking
about themselves, exaggeratingtheir achievements, craving
attention and admiration.
They struggle to empathize withothers or they use empathy as a
manipulation tactic, and thenthey become defensive or angry
when given feedback, becausethey view all feedback as
(10:03):
criticism if it's not inagreement.
So that's narcissist.
Let's talk about narcissism.
That is a set of personalitytraits for someone who has an
intense desire to be recognized.
So lots of self-focus andneeding attention.
A little bit of a step up fromnarcissist, because these are
personality traits which meansthey're ongoing and you see them
pretty consistently.
On the healthy side it can looklike confidence and pride.
(10:26):
On the unhealthy side it canlook like entitlement,
manipulation and lack ofaccountability.
So to move even further,narcissistic personality
disorder is a mental healthdiagnosis.
It's an ongoing rigid patternof grandiosity, need for
admiration and lack of realempathy empathy.
So when you are using thediagnostic manual, which is what
(10:47):
psychiatrists and psychologistsuse to diagnose someone, there
are nine characteristics in thenarcissistic personality
disorder scope to be diagnosedwith.
You have to have five of thenine.
So the nine are exaggeratedsense of self-importance,
fantasies about unlimitedsuccess, power, beauty, love.
They believe that they'respecial and only understood by
(11:09):
high status people.
They require excessiveadmiration.
They have a sense ofentitlement.
They exploit others forpersonal gain.
They lack empathy.
They're often envious of othersor believes others envy them
and their arrogant, egotisticaland conceited behaviors or
attitudes.
So if you have five of thosenine things, you get the
(11:30):
diagnosis.
In my experience my partner hadall but one and that was lax
empathy.
But the empathy was only usedfor manipulation, there was
never a true empathy.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
That's incredible.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
That's what I experienced is the narcissistic
personality disorder, and it'sreally damaging to relationships
and families.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Thank you for clarifying all of that.
Just to recap narcissist label,narcissism behavior,
narcissistic personalitydisorder, diagnosis and I think
those are really importantdistinctions for us to make,
because we're seeing these termsto the extent on social media
and on the internet and lots ofother places where they become
(12:13):
interchangeable, misunderstood,misused and diluted.
It's not clear really what thatmeans and I think very often I
need to be set straight andreminded what the terms are and
what they mean and occasionallyrevisit things with Dr Romney so
that I know what I'm talkingabout.
So I'm glad you kind of gave usall that clarification.
(12:34):
Thank you for that.
For some people the experiencescan be subtle and for others,
as in your case, perhaps moreovert and for others, as in your
case, perhaps more overt.
So when do the behaviors crossthe line and become abuse?
Speaker 2 (12:48):
We talked about just the definition of narcissism and
the definition of abuse is adeliberate pattern of control,
degradation or harm, whetherphysical, emotional, financial
or sexual right.
So the intersection of those iswhen narcissistic behaviors are
consistently used to manipulate, intimidate or strip away a
(13:09):
partner's independence, we wouldconsider them abusive.
We can all experience anarcissistic person Like we
talked about.
You go on a first date and youencounter this person and you're
sitting at the table togetherand that's all that they can
talk about is themselves.
But when those behaviors areconsistently applied and there's
a resulting power imbalance,that's abuse.
The power imbalance isn'talways noticeable.
(13:31):
It could just be that thevictim starts to shrink
themselves, but when that doeshappen, that's considered abuse.
The hallmark of abusivenarcissistic dynamics is when
the partner loses their sense ofsafety, self-worth and autonomy
.
You lose who you are as aperson.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah, no identity and feeling fearful.
I think feeling fear is one ofthe sure signs that you may be
in an abusive relationship andsomething needs to be looked at,
because you should never beafraid with your intimate
partner.
You're a professional, licensedclinical social worker.
What is available to survivorsof these forms of abuse and what
(14:08):
type of interventions do youtypically recommend, and how
might those be helpful?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
I'd offer three types that are extremely helpful and
either independently or allcombined.
The first is individual therapy.
What individual therapy will dois really help you restore
trust in your own perceptions,because with the gaslighting you
really do question a lot oftimes whether basic everyday
things are real or make sense.
It also helps you to reduceyour trauma symptoms and really
(14:35):
develop coping skills around theabuse that you experienced.
But survivors don't need justtherapy.
It's a multi-layeredintervention that will help them
navigate through this process.
The goal is to recover, toreclaim our voice and our
autonomy and then have abrighter future.
The second, and one of the mostimportant for me, is support
groups or peer communities.
Narcissistic abusers are knownfor alienating survivors from
(14:59):
their community of support.
It happens slowly.
You just kind of notice thatpeople that were once there are
no longer there anymore, andthat happens because sometimes
the abuser wants tointentionally isolate you.
But sometimes it's because theabuser's behaviors are so
extreme that people voluntarilydisengage, and that's a great
way for the abuser to turn itaround on the other person.
(15:19):
Your friends, who you think areyour friends, don't even care
about you.
And you don't know at the timethat your friends are like.
What are you doing with?
this person Right.
So I remember, regardingsupport groups, when I first
disengaged, I spent hours everyday just listening to stories of
survivors of this type of abuseand I remember people saying
it's time to move on, stoplistening to that negativity.
(15:41):
But I needed that to understand.
I wasn't crazy.
It's kind of like youunderstand that when there's
community, when other people arehaving similar experiences or
are telling you this was notimaginary, this was real what
you experienced.
So it helped me not question myreality.
The third point I would say ispsychoeducation.
It's important to learn aboutnarcissism gaslighting, coercive
(16:02):
control and trauma bonding,because it gives you a language
to describe your experience.
I know even now, sometimes I'mhaving a conversation and I want
to explain or express whathappened and I just I don't know
the words to do it because itall seems like it's not real.
A lot of the times, and I wasvery much trauma bonded.
Every time he didn't get a jobhe applied for, every time an
(16:24):
external relationship of hisdidn't work out, it was my
perception that either one theother person was wrong or two,
that if I could just get himover the hump, everything would
be better and he would see andunderstand my value, because at
that point in the relationshipmy value was tied to who he was
as a person, or his validation.
Psychoeducation really helpsreduce self-blame and increases
(16:47):
clarity, which is often stolenby their manipulation.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Are those all forms of therapy that you're able to
offer at the Family Place?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yes, absolutely.
We offer support groups,individual therapy and
psychoeducation.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
We do similar at Genesis.
I know we have a longpartnership together, 40 years
maybe more.
I'm not sure this is our 40thanniversary year.
How long has the family placebeen around?
45 years, 45 years.
You're our big sisters.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Well, a little bit.
I think our longtime leadersPaige and Jan were sisters in
the fight for a very, very longtime.
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Yeah, we're here just to carry on that legacy, of
course.
So, all of that being said, allof the experiences this went on
for you for 10 years right,when a partner chooses to stay
in the relationship with anarcissist for whatever reason,
even if that decision istemporary, what tools or skills
(17:42):
will benefit their own healthand safety as they navigate the
relationship?
In other words, some peoplearen't ready to leave.
Some people are reflecting,they're taking a closer look at
what's happening to them andthey may be getting that
psychoeducation that youmentioned in the process of
trying to understand what isgoing on here.
And people may think, well, whyis she staying with him if he's
(18:04):
so abusive?
But you need time and you needa safety plan, and there are
tools and skills that I know weteach at Genesis and I'm sure
you teach at the Family Placethat can help people navigate
this.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yes, and, if you don't mind, I want to just
comment on one thing you saidThank you for clarifying the
choice to leave, just really anunderstanding that sometimes it
could be because of financialsituations, because of your
family, because of culturalreasons that people don't leave.
But I also really want to beclear so that people who are
experiencing this can bevalidated in this way.
When you are in thesesituations, you do not realize
(18:40):
that anything is wrong.
You do not realize thatanything is wrong, and the times
that you feel bad or you feelsad, you associate that with not
having done enough for theabuser or not keeping the
environment calm.
I spent so much time trying tolevel out the emotional tone of
(19:02):
my household, just making sureeverything stayed even and calm,
so I didn't necessarily thinkthat was wrong.
I just thought that every timeit didn't work, I had failed at
doing it Right.
So when people are saying abouta choice to leave, I think one
of the first things that happenswith non-physical domestic
violence is you have to identifythere's a problem, and that's
why it takes longer with this,because really you're just
gaslit to the point that youeven question your own thoughts
(19:22):
and beliefs, right, yeah?
Speaker 1 (19:24):
So yes, that's a good distinction, because there's a
whole spectrum of abuse, there'sa whole spectrum of experiences
, so thank you for pointing thatout.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yeah, and safety planning, of course, like you
mentioned, is huge in our world,right, but it's very important
to know your next steps and havethem written out for you so
that if you're ever in that kindof mode where you can't think
for yourself or can't figure outwhat to do, you don't have much
time you can look at a sheet ofpaper that tells you this is my
next step, this is where I go,this is where I put my keys,
this is who's going to pick upmy children if I don't pick them
(19:52):
up for school.
So just that kind of plan.
The second piece that isinteresting to me I learned that
this process is called the grayrock technique and it was
really thought of by a mentalhealth blogger by the name of
Skylar.
I don't know her last name, butI'm forever grateful.
But it's really a way that youset an emotional boundary.
Gray rock method, or gray rocktechnique, is responding with
(20:13):
minimal emotion and detail.
So when you are engaging withyour abuser, it is yes, it is no
, it is okay.
When they're trying to bait youinto conflict, right, which is
pretty regular.
So you limit disclosures.
Narcissists prey onvulnerability, so you try to
share as little personalvulnerability as possible
because they weaponize thatweakness.
(20:33):
So just remembering a lot oftimes when you're being baited,
you know when it's happeningjust minimize the amount of
conversation and feedback yougive.
And then the third is reallyanchoring.
For me it was journaling, likejournal, journal, journal and,
if that's not your thing, just away to record your experience,
to help validate what'shappening to you.
I was able sometimes to go backto things when I was gaslit and
(20:56):
I would say like, oh, thatreally did happen.
You know it did happen becauseon this date I wrote it down and
it helped me really feel like Iwasn't crazy.
Also, personal affirmations I'mnot crazy, my experiences are
real.
That helps a lot as well.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah, I've heard a lot of people, a lot of
survivors, talk about the crazymaking.
I think in one way, it's notthe best way to say it, but it
is a good way to describe itbecause it feels exactly like
that.
Let's just circle back to yourpersonal experience for a moment
.
Do you feel like you havehealed from that relationship?
Is healing truly possible forsurvivors?
(21:32):
And I think healing is aconditional term.
It's different for everybody,and if you don't like that term,
when would you know that you'reon the other side of something
like this?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
I honestly, some days I don't feel like I'll ever
heal or be on the other side.
It can take years to reallyfully recover from the damage
that's done, just because of thepsychological manipulation.
I mean that is the hardest part.
When you don't trust thethoughts that are in your head,
that is very, very hard torecover from.
I feel like I have a toe on theother side because I'm doing
(22:07):
things like having theseconversations and I'm able to
support people through a peersupport group, but I am not
healed.
I'm triggered daily in myeveryday life.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
I'm so sorry to hear that and I hope that this is a
good experience for you, kind ofbeing able to talk about your
story in a supportiveenvironment, because we support
you and, of course, the firstrule of working with survivors
is to believe her right, and weknow that your experience
happened.
You are not crazy and you arevery much doing, I think, what
(22:39):
you were called to do.
Your purpose is to help othersand support others who have
similar experiences.
Changing subjects for a momentand looking at the abuser what
are the treatment modalities fornarcissistic offenders and do
they work?
Speaker 2 (23:00):
So interventions for people with narcissistic traits
or narcissistic personalitydisorder are complex, because
one of the core features ofnarcissism is lack of insight
and resistance to admittingproblems.
So if you have this lack ofinsight and you can't identify
what the problem is, how wouldyou ever seek help voluntarily?
Narcissists typically come totherapy because they've been
(23:21):
court-ordered to do so, becauseof a legal or professional
conflict or relationshipbreakdown.
Partner to a narcissist may sayI'm not going to stay with you
unless you go to therapy.
And if their existence is builton that partner, either
financially or from apresentation perspective, like
how the world perceives them,they will commit to do it that
way.
Research indicates that themost effective intervention is
(23:44):
long-term psychotherapy.
But change is really only aspossible as much as they want to
invest in it.
But you also have to rememberthat when it's a personality
disorder, the change or the workhas to benefit them.
That's how they will receive itand that's the only way they'll
participate in it.
And so I'll give you an example.
(24:04):
A narcissistic partner can learnthat when they call you stupid,
you don't like it right.
So if they choose to stop,they'll stop calling you stupid,
but they will not feel theemotion of it.
It's only because a consequencehas been applied in that
setting and that skill is nottransferable.
So I can say it doesn't benefitme as a survivor to say to a
(24:25):
narcissistic personalitydisorder when you call me stupid
, it makes me feel bad.
They don't connect with that.
You don't call me stupid again,or I'm going to leave you and
this won't be met and this won'tbe met and this won't be met.
That's what they register with.
So their brain tells them OK,if I call her stupid, then the
paycheck stop or the taking careof the children stops or
(24:45):
whatever.
It is the way that you supporttheir behavior that will stop.
That is how the behaviorchanges.
But even those small changesalone require persistence and
accountability.
Like, the progress with thesetype of people is often slow and
uneven, but research varies onwhether you can be cured from it
or not.
Like, most people say no, youcan't right, it's a personality
(25:06):
disorder.
But I think there are ways thatpeople can choose to change
behaviors with that person thatthey are interacting in.
Again, it's important to knowit's not transferable.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Yeah, that's really eye-opening what you shared
there, and I think the veryfirst step has to come from that
person being open to evenreceiving any type of
information that would benegative or about changing their
own personality.
So that is incrediblychallenging and not having
people like that in your lifewould be key right to not having
(25:37):
to be on the other side of thisat any point.
What resources would yourecommend for listeners who want
to explore this topic,especially those who might be
experiencing abuse from anarcissistic partner?
Speaker 2 (25:51):
First, I would always emphasize safety right.
If you are searching on theinternet, clear your browser
history, use safe devices, avoidleaving books or emails where
your partner can find them.
But I look at help in threedifferent ways.
The first is education, crisisand healing.
So for education, there are acouple of things I'll tell you
real briefly and I hope we canpost them at the end because
(26:12):
it's a lot of information.
But there's a Dr Les Carter thathas a YouTube channel that
speaks about all phases ofnarcissism and helps with
identification and movement awayfrom narcissists.
It's called SurvivingNarcissism TV.
And another website resource isOut of the Fog and that helps
(26:33):
family members and loved ones ofpeople who suffer with
personality disorders.
But on that website there aretons of toolkits that are
helpful when you're in crisis.
The National Domestic Hotlineright National Domestic Violence
Hotline but also localproviders like Genesis in the
Family Place, can be helpful Forhealing.
I would say Therapy, supportGroups and Education.
One of the best books I haveever read is it's Not you
Identifying and Healing fromNarcissistic People by Dr Romani
(26:55):
.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yes, she's fantastic, she's amazing.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
I love it and it's so interesting because I heard her
audio book first and then Iwent and bought the book and
then was highlighting it, soit's a huge tool for me.
But what I love about it isthat she shifts the focus from
why does he do that?
To how to help the survivorheal, and that's so important
because there's so much timespent trying to understand or
rationalize the reasons behindhis behaviors that we lose sight
(27:21):
of the victim who experiencedthe behaviors most intimately
and deeply, and really that'swhere we need to focus, right, I
love that about her work.
And then there's a couple offolks on Instagram that I find
extremely helpful when I justneed that kind of quick dopamine
hit.
One is how to Love a BatteredWoman.
It's a narcissistic, abusiverecovery coach.
Another one is WEAV.
(27:42):
W-e-a-v Told Me how to NavigateBreakups and Narcissistic Abuse
.
And the last one I'll give youis Daniel Chidiak.
I went and tried to listen tohow he's saying his name
professionally, but it'sC-H-I-D-I-A-C, and he has a show
and a podcast and an Instagrampage called the Way Through, and
really those are just quicksound bites of like do you feel
(28:04):
that you're going crazy becausethis happened?
And no, you aren't going crazy.
So just those quickmotivational pieces are often
necessary sometimes.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Those are so interesting.
I'm going to have to look themup and, yeah, we can share those
links in the notes when theepisode goes live.
Tiffany Tate, it's been apleasure to speak with you.
Thank you for being on the showand for sharing your story with
us.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Thank you so much for having me.
I appreciate the platform.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Genesis Women's Shelter and Support exists to
give women in abusive situationsa way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
(28:47):
domestic violence.
You can learn more atGenesisShelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
Genesis Women's Shelter and on Xat Genesis Shelter the Genesis,
seven days a week, by call ortext at 214-946-HELP
214-946-4357.
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