Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Earlier this year, we
met with presenters at the 2025
Conference on Crimes AgainstWomen in Dallas, texas.
In this episode, my guest,david Adams, joins the show to
discuss the grooming tactics ofintimate partner abusers.
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis, the podcast.
David Adams is co-founder aswell as director of research and
(00:24):
development at Emerge, thefirst counseling program in the
world for men who abuse women.
Dr Adams has led groups forabusers for over 44 years and
parenting education groups for20 years.
He is an international experton abusers and abuser
interventions and has conductedtrainings of social service and
criminal justice professionalsin over 48 states and 26 nations
(00:48):
.
Dr Adams has published numerousarticles and book chapters on
domestic violence.
His book why Do they Kill Menwho Murder their Intimate
Partners was published in 2007.
He is also co-chair of theCriminal Justice Committee of
the Massachusetts Council onDomestic Violence and also
served as director of theNational Danger Assessment
Training Project.
(01:08):
Additionally, mr Adams is afrequent expert witness on court
cases involving allegations ofdomestic violence.
David, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Good to be with you,
and especially good to be with
you at the 2025 Conference onCrimes Against Women in Dallas,
texas.
We're going to talk about theinformation you presented in
your session this week at theconference.
You co-founded a company calledEmerge in 1977, and that is the
time when the battered women'smovement was really gearing up
(01:38):
in the United States.
Tell us about Emerge, yourprograms and why you founded
this program.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yeah, sure, and so
Emerge was the first program in
the nation for abusers, and thepeople that founded Emerge were
10 men.
What we had in common was thatwe were friends of women who had
started the first domesticviolence programs in the Boston
area, and so they had beengetting calls on their hotlines
(02:05):
from men and asking for help,and the women didn't really feel
it was their mission to helpthe abusers, and so they asked
us, as a group of men that theyknew and more or less trusted,
whether we'd be interested intaking this on, and so we did,
and really very little waswritten about domestic violence
back then, and so the best wayto learn was to talk to victims
(02:28):
of domestic violence, and so wejust started inviting victims,
and we didn't have an office, wewere just meeting in our homes
at that point, so we invitedwomen to come and tell their
stories.
And one of the women who was aprofessional woman.
She had convinced her estrangedhusband to send her an audio
tape.
She had convinced her estrangedhusband to send her an audio
tape, and we sat around onenight listening to this
90-minute audio tape in which hewas kind of like apologizing to
(02:50):
her and I think he kind ofwanted to get back in the
relationship.
But it was interesting becausehis apologies were sort of
followed or accompanied byexcuses, even like kind of
romanticizations of what he haddone.
And so it was kind ofeye-opening for us to see,
because we were kind of naive,we thought we were just
explaining to the men that whatthey were doing was wrong, and
instead we kind of realized thatthere's a lot of denial, a lot
(03:13):
of immunization.
That was really our startingpoint was to sort of figure out
an approach, developing groupsfor abusers.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
I found it really
interesting that you said men
were calling abuse hotlinesasking for help because they
were abusers.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Yes, well, I mean,
some of them were asking if they
could be in contact with theirpartners, desperate to get back
in their relationship, and sothey were just sort of grasping
at straws.
Some of them Well, I mean, youknow, some of the victims may
have been asking them to gethelp.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
That's a good point.
So what are the programs thatyou offer at Emerge?
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Primary thing is
still the groups for abusers.
We have a 40-week program forabusers in different languages.
I started a parenting programcalled the Responsible
Fatherhood Program in 2002,which was basically offered to
the men who were alreadyattending Emerge to be in a
separate parenting group so thatwe could kind of increase their
awareness about their childrenand how their children are
(04:07):
impacted and hopefully give theman additional motivation to
want to become not just betterpartners but better parents to
set a more positive example fortheir kids.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Yeah, absolutely so.
We're here to talk more aboutwhat leads up to the point where
you need a better interventionprogram, right?
And so let's talk a little bitabout all the things that lead
to men coming to one of theseprograms that emerge grooming
tactics.
Help us understand what thatmeans and some examples of
(04:38):
grooming.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
So, as a part of our
program, we engage the men in an
exercise called a relationshiphistory, and essentially it's 17
questions that we ask themabout each intimate relationship
they've had.
And how did you meet is one ofthose questions, which is an
interesting question.
(04:59):
What were you attracted to inyour partner?
How did the relationship begin?
When did you first start havingsex?
Or her biggest complaints aboutyou.
And so, in effect, we end upwith kind of a trove of really
interesting information aboutabusers and the tactics that
they have used in theirrelationships.
You know, for instance, one ofthe things I talked about in my
(05:21):
presentation yesterday wasrescuing, the whole notion of
rescuing.
It seems to be a commonscenario, where one example
would be meeting her on thestreet, helping her to start her
car.
Another example would besomebody who is homeless, or
she's been kicked out of herparents' home because she's a
(05:41):
pregnant teen, and he's offeringher to live with him.
You know, one of the killers Iinterviewed for my book, because
my topic was about not justpeople who participate in our
program, but also men who end upkilling their partners, and so
one of the killers that Iinterviewed for my book had met
her on a bus.
She was a teenager who hestruck up a conversation with
(06:05):
her, you know, sitting next toher on the bus, with her, you
know, sitting next to her on thebus, and she revealed that her
parents had kicked her out ofthe home because she was
pregnant and he offered for herto move in with him, which she
did two days later and she wasdead within 18 months.
And so the significance, Ithink, of the kind of the whole
notion of rescuing is it sets upthis dynamic where they feel
(06:25):
somehow that she's beholding tothem.
It's largely a figment of theirimagination.
By the way, from the victim'sperspective, she's not being
rescued.
She may think she's rescuinghim.
You know, in some cases it'ssort of like a situation where
both people have come from a badupbringing and kind of bonded
with each other around thatcommon experience and I think
(06:46):
there's this sort of sense ofalmost being soulmates, you know
, and understanding each other.
You know the first date sex Italk about first date sex as one
of the themes which you know iskind of a bad way to begin a
relationship, because I think itkind of confuses sex with
intimacy.
I think it short changes thewhole process of establishing
(07:08):
boundaries.
For instance, I think that theboundaries of having private
time when you're dating somebody, the boundary of having your
own friends, the boundary ofhaving privacy, of having
secrets all of those things kindof get violated.
I think when you jumpstart arelationship by having sex and
(07:28):
from a victim's perspective, atthe beginning it may seem
romantic what we call lovebombing.
You know that abusers engage in, but what I learned from
talking to victims of attemptedhomicide was that quite often
there's kind of a turning pointwith the beginning of sex and
many of the victims would saythat before we had sex he was so
(07:51):
sweet, he was so thoughtful,you know, he was so romantic.
And then as soon as we startedhaving sex, it's like he owned
me.
He started having all of thesejealous thoughts and accusations
.
One of the things I talk aboutin my presentation is kind of
like key turning points in therelationship between a victim
and her abuser, from theso-called honeymoon stage Now,
(08:14):
with killers, batterers ingeneral are more likely than
non-batterers to have first-datesex.
The research that I've seen isthat 35% of the general public
begins a relationship with firstor second date sex.
What I've seen with abusersparticipating in our program is
about 46%, and so there's asignificant difference.
(08:35):
That begin their relationshipswith first date sex.
Now, when I look at killers,specifically those who go on to
kill their partners, it is 75%.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Wow, it jumps that
much.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah, and then the
other thing that's unique about
the killers is short courtships.
The average courtship for a manwho kills his partner is just
under three months, and when Isay courtship I mean from the
time he meets her to the time hestarts living with her.
The average is three months,and so that kind of speeded up
process for the abuser.
(09:07):
Part of it is that he doesn'twant to give her the time to
learn about his past.
And there's plenty to learn.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Kind of like trapping
someone.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yes, my presentation
is called Grooming and
Entrapment Strategies.
Oh, there you go, and socourtship, I think, serves the
purpose of really entrapping her, and by the time that she gets
to learn about that, about hispast domestic violence, it's too
late.
Now I'm working on a secondbook about intimate partner
homicide, and we areinterviewing survivors of
(09:38):
attempted homicide as well asfamily members of murder victims
, and so one of the interviews Idid just recently the victim
met him online, which is acommon thing now.
They had their first meetup ata bar.
She revealed to him that shewas going on vacation Caribbean
(09:58):
Island the next week, and heinvited himself.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yeah.
And so her thought process waswell, I've always been just a
super buttoned down kind ofperson.
I've always been so a superbuttoned down kind of person.
I've always been so cautiousand so responsible.
And she felt, well, this is anopportunity for me to do
something different, you know,to be a little bit more
adventurous, you know.
And so the following weekthey're on vacation, they're at
a high-rise hotel, he's out onthe balcony having a long
(10:25):
conversation with his kids.
Which have you brushed yourteeth?
You know, have you brushed yourteeth?
Have you put your jammies on?
And so she was impressed bythat that he seemed to be kind
of so involved with his children.
She knew he was separated fromthe mother, but she didn't know
the reasons.
And then she heard him have asubsequent conversation with his
boss, 45-minute conversations.
There was something off abouthim.
(10:47):
She asked a police officerfriend to look into him, and so
what the officer revealed to herwas that he had no contact with
his children.
There was a restraining order.
He had not had any contact withthe kids was a fabricated
conversation.
He also had not been employedat this company, this high-tech
(11:12):
company, for a year.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Amazing.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
And so that was
helpful for her because she
began the process of trying toextricate herself from that
relationship.
It took seven months, and soshe knew he was kind of
dangerous at that point and soshe was trying to let him down,
gradually, kind of reduce heramount of contact with him.
But eventually she was able todo that to end the relationship,
(11:37):
and then, I think a year later,he ended up killing his next
partner, and so she dodged abullet, you know.
And so part of what I'm wantingto do in this second book is
interviewing survivors andparents and sisters and brothers
of those who were killed tounderstand what were the early
warning signs, what are thingsthat in retrospect that you wish
(11:58):
you had done as a parent or asa sister.
One of the sisters I interviewed, she said that she just hated
her sister's boyfriend rightfrom the beginning, and she was
a younger sister, she was 17when her sister was 28 and began
this relationship, and so shelet him have it.
He was exploitive, he was justunemployed, he was just
(12:18):
everything she hated and shejust would blast him.
But one of the unintendedconsequences of that, her sister
began to curtail herrelationship with her family
because she knew that they werejust so against him and she
became more isolated over timeleading up to her death, and so
the sister wishes that she hadbeen more, understanding, more.
(12:43):
I think the way she put it wasmore of a refuge, a source of
support, rather than sort ofplacing her sister in this
situation where she felt likeshe was pressuring her to end
the relationship.
And I think, as a teenager Imean, she was doing something
that would be very natural for ateenager, right?
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yeah, of course, to
voice their opinions, but it can
certainly backfire if you're inlove with someone or you're
having a relationship withsomeone and I come in and say,
well, he's no good for you andtell him how I feel about him.
It could endear you further tothat person.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Oh, absolutely.
You all know, a Genesis is thewhole notion of keeping the door
open with the victim and notbeing judgmental.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Yeah, but that's not
something that friends and
family necessarily understand.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
For sure.
I want to ask you aboutsomething you call the four
phases of a relationship and howthese are relevant to abuse.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah, and so this is
specific to the relationship
with men who kill their partnersand their victims.
And so I think I alreadymentioned really the first phase
, which is the honeymoon phase,the short courtship which really
kind of could range from twodays to six months, having that
kind of like honeymoon, lots ofsex, not just first date sex.
(13:57):
But many of the killers and manyof the victims of attempted
homicide said that he would wantsex a lot, basically way more
than what would be average fiveor six or seven or eight times a
day, you know, which I came tosort of understand as being an
entrapment strategy, keeping herin this sense of false intimacy
, you know.
I mean at first victims werewelcoming of this.
(14:19):
Then, kind of the secondturning point was really the
beginning of violence in therelationship.
So the first incident ofviolence which most victims at
that point saw as being ananomaly and they were constantly
wanting to get back to whatthey thought he was like in the
honeymoon stage right,thoughtful, sweet person, right.
(14:40):
Many of them sort of came tofeel responsible for giving him
a family.
Some of the victims articulatedis that I felt like he was just
, he had had such a terribleupbringing, if I give him
stability, if I could give him ahome, forgive him love, he
would sort of feel less insecure, less jealous.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
She can fix him yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Third phase is really
kind of the continuation of the
violence, and so it becomesnormalized and victims are now,
for the first time, thinkingabout ending the relationship,
questioning whether they shouldremain in a relationship.
The other thing that'sdifferent during the third phase
is that there's no longerapologies.
There's now more typicallyignoring what happened.
(15:24):
He's just been abusive.
He's saying what's the?
Matter.
Are you upset about somethingyou know?
Kind of crazy making that thenin fourth phase transforms into
blaming her for what happened bythe way, you know, anyway, in
the third phase he's kind ofignoring, he's engaging in more
violent sex.
At this point he's not reallyrecognizing any limits that
(15:46):
she's putting on it.
Many of the victims said heseemed to sort of be turned on
by rough sex, hurtful sex.
There were threats, threats ofviolence, threats of death, and
so then by the fourth phasethere's kind of a dynamic where
she's beginning to really bevery unhappy, angry, she's
sometimes talking about leaving,which then for him becomes more
(16:11):
reason to surveil her, morereason to monitor her.
There's trial, separations.
During those separations hesteps up his monitoring.
Some of them actually quittheir jobs they were fired from
their jobs in order to have moretime to surveil her and so it's
sort of like this terriblesituation for the victim, where
she knows that her life is atrisk and the threats become more
(16:32):
graphic at that point.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
More explicit to
sometimes.
Now he's threatening to killher family.
She's in kind of a no-winsituation.
The most dangerous point forany victim is when she's trying
to end an abusive relationship.
And yet to stay is dangerous aswell, and so some victims have
actually walked away at thispoint and have ended the
(16:54):
relationship.
I mean so.
For the killer, there seemed tobe two motives.
One was to try to prevent herfrom leaving or to get her back
through stepped-up threats andsuch.
The other motivation was topunish her for ending the
relationship to basically, if Ican't have her, nobody else can,
mentality.
One of the killers said to methe idea that I could kill her
(17:16):
was just a comforting thoughtthat I had.
I didn't think I would need tokill her because I didn't think
she'd ever leave me, but I wascomforted by that thought that
that was an option.
And so that was something thathad formulated in his mind for a
couple of years, that he hadthat option of killing her, and
I think she probably knew thatthat was something on his mind.
(17:37):
And what I also found was thatfrequency of threats is
meaningful.
I think that for the killerit's a way of psyching himself
up, you know to normalize theidea he could do that.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
I think a lot of what
you're telling me is leaving me
somewhat speechless.
Abusive men, or even those whohave committed murder of their
intimate partner, would explainto you that they're comforted by
the idea that her death was anoption.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Yeah, and I've come
to think of it as premeditation,
but not pre-contemplation.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
What's the difference
?
Speaker 2 (18:10):
So he's planned, he's
made plans, he's purchased a
firearm or he's made some plans.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
That's premeditation.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
He doesn't have any
kind of plan for what he's going
to do after that.
He hasn't thought through whathis life is going to be like.
But many of them basically saidI was so worked up, I was so
upset I couldn't sleep, Icouldn't eat for weeks leading
up to it.
I was so worked up, I was soupset I couldn't sleep, I
couldn't eat for weeks leadingup to it.
I didn't think through.
Interestingly, none of thekillers had been in a batterers
(18:37):
intervention program it wasprobably the most commonly cited
deterrent that I kind of gavethem a list of things that might
have deterred them.
We do that.
I mean, I think the majority ofabusers are redirectable.
I think that some of them havenot had the information that we
provide, which is how to beempathetic to a partner, how to
listen to a partner's concerns,how to respond in a sensitive
(19:00):
manner to things that arehappening, you know, in the
relationship and to learn fromthem.
And that's what we see in ourprogram.
For the most part, we seepeople that have started out on
a bad path and really don't knowhow to maintain a relationship,
and so, for the most part,they're very receptive to the
(19:21):
information.
Jealousy is not a good way ofresponding.
That's your insecurity.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
So when you say
they're redirectable, are you
referring to those who haveattempted to murder or who have
murdered their partner?
Speaker 2 (19:35):
I think that it's
less likely.
I think that killers, what sortof separates themselves from
not killers is that they're moreextreme in their attitudes and
their thoughts, in theirthoughts Some of them would sort
of fit an antisocialpersonality profile, which
empathy is not something thatpeople with that profile are
capable of some of them Right.
(20:02):
But even we have had somekillers in our program, people
that serve their time for havingkilling, and even in some of
those cases I think they areable to learn from their
mistakes.
I think that our parentingprogram is very useful because I
think that most abusersminimize how their children have
been impacted by their abuse oftheir mother.
I grew up in a violent home.
My father was violent toward mymother.
(20:22):
My mother died when I was 17 ofdomestic violence.
My father was very critical ofmy mother.
He would say violence.
My father was very critical ofmy mother.
He would say see how you makeme feel, you know, and he'd say
that to us kids as well.
And I remember thinking, wow,dad wants me to be responsible
for his feelings.
You know, even when I was six Iremember thinking that.
(20:47):
But then also I think that Ikind of copied some of my
father's attitudes towards mymother.
I think as a teenager I feltthat my mother was an idiot only
because that was what myfather's attitude was towards
her.
You know, kind of like ArchieBunker, and I feel very guilty
now, of course.
I mean, I didn't get to outgrowthat because you know she died
when I was 17.
You know, now I recognize shewas much smarter than my father
(21:10):
was, you know, and she was justeverything.
He was not, you know, she wasjust a giving, loving parent.
But I think it's kids willsometimes take sides.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
It's going to affect
children.
All experts will agree thatchildren are impacted by
domestic violence, even if theyare not abused themselves and
I'm sorry for what happened toyour mom and I appreciate you
sharing that with us, kind ofthat understanding of where you
actually entered into this workand why it's so important to you
.
I want to go back to a coupleof things you said and try to
(21:43):
understand the correlationbetween sexual violence and
femicide.
What is that about?
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Well, I think that
sexual violence more than
anything denotes ownership formany abusers in general, and
more so for those who areserious abusers.
They objectify women.
They think of women as sexobjects and they have this sort
of bifurcated attitudes towardswomen.
There's women who are bad women, sluts, and then there's the
(22:10):
women that you marry.
But even when they marrysomebody who they consider to be
a good woman, that attitudestill that women are not to be
trusted.
Part of what batterers do isthey kind of project their own
characteristics onto theirpartners.
They think she's disloyalbecause I'm disloyal, she's not
(22:31):
to be trusted, and they blametheir feelings.
Their expectation of women isthat the women should be their
emotional caretakers, and alongwith that goes the notion that
she's responsible for myfeelings.
If I'm feeling bad about myself, she's responsible for that.
So part of what we're trying todo in our program is, now that
(22:51):
you're no longer in arelationship, if you're
separated, there's anopportunity for the first time
in your life to learn how tomanage your own feelings, to
learn how to manage your ownboredom, to learn how to manage
your own anger.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Take responsibility
for who you are as a person.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
That's right.
That actually is a very goodapproach, because I think that
at some level many abusersrecognize that that has been a
problem for them, that they haveover-reliable on women to be
their emotional caretakers and,as a result, have never learned
to manage their own feelings,and it makes them a bad parent
too.
And so I think it's a goodselling point, so to speak, for
(23:26):
change.
But I do think that sexualviolence back to your original
question I think is kind of likean aspect of that way that men
exploit female partners, youknow, and think of them
primarily in sexual terms ordon't really develop a
relationship with a real person.
One of the things we do in ourprogram is we require them to
(23:48):
use their partner's name Simplelittle thing, I mean.
So rather than saying my wifeor my girlfriend, what is her
name, please and people in theprogram have said that really
began to make me think of her asa real person by using her name
.
She's a real person.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
She is a real person,
oh my gosh.
So I'm curious about how muchvalue we can place on the
feedback from these abusive men,especially when they have been
court ordered to participate inthis type of a program.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yeah, my program
Emerge, proud of the fact that
35% of our clients are voluntary.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, and so many of
them are what we'd call partner
mandated, so they're men whosepartners have asked them to come
to Emer emerge.
But I do think it helps to sortof show that you don't have to
wait to be arrested to takeresponsibility for the problem.
I think at the beginning whatyou see, particularly those who
are court mandated, is somebodywho's kind of externally
motivated.
(24:45):
So they're kind of like angry,resentful.
They have these notions thatwomen are always believed and I
think that what we seereassuringly is that eight or 10
weeks, 12 weeks into theprogram, they begin to recognize
how much they're gaining fromthe program.
They thought it was theirpartner that was causing all the
problems.
(25:05):
They are beginning to beself-reflective, they're
beginning to recognize.
One of the exercises we dothat's interesting is this it's
kind of a brainstorm of how doesdomestic violence affect
partners.
Starts out with a list ofthings like distrust, avoidance
of you, ambivalence about therelationship, doubts about the
relationship, depression,blaming herself, being unhappy
(25:28):
and, interestingly, many abusers.
They'll say things like youknow.
See, that's exactly what I'mdealing with.
She's unhappy all the time.
They don't connect it to theirabusive behavior.
They're thinking of it as aburden.
You know I'm with somebodywho's never happy.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Because how could it
be them?
They typically won't take blame.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Right, and so what
we're doing is we're normalizing
the victim's behavior.
We're saying the very thingsyou're complaining about an
unhappy partner, a partner whoavoids you, is distrustful of
you, is of your own doing, youare creating the very things
that you complain about, and sothat is actually the pathway to
empathy.
Just like kids need to be moreclear about how their behavior
(26:07):
acting out, how that hurts thembasically so through
consequences and limits that weset with our kids, then I think
there's a possibility ofthinking about how their
behavior impacts other people.
It's really the same processthat we're using with abusers is
that we're making them moreclear about how their behavior
actually always takes them awayfrom the things that they say
(26:27):
that they want.
They want somebody whoappreciates them.
How could she appreciate youwhen you never appreciate her
right?
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Or you don't do
anything worth appreciating.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
That's right, and so
then we begin a process where
they kind of give each otherfeedback.
You know, it's always easier tospot somebody else's problems
than your own.
It's easier to smell somebodyelse's bad breath, as we say,
and so they actually are quitegood at giving each other
feedback.
So here's an example.
So one of the men he said thathe had had his first contact
(26:58):
with his wife for two years, sothey were now in divorce court
and so they were in courttogether, and so the way he
described it during his weeklycheck-in was that he just was in
the courthouse and he wandereddown a corridor and he
encountered her around thecorner.
She freaked out, was justterrified seeing him.
(27:19):
But the way he presented it tothe group is she actually filed
a violation of restraining order.
This is just what a vindictivebitch she is.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
So then we opened it
up to the other men in the group
, and so one of the men said youknow what?
I think she's really stillafraid of you.
There's no reason for her notto be afraid of you.
One of them reminded him thatthe last contact he had had with
her was a barricade situationwhere he was holding her and a
kid hostage, and it took fourpolice departments to respond.
(27:50):
Wow, so literally that was herlast contact.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Yeah, she might be
afraid of him, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
So one of the men
said you know what?
I bet she couldn't sleep fortwo months leading up to court.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
And so those are
really good comments.
This is a group of people whohave been accused of being
abusive.
Oh, yeah, and they're able tocall each other out on stuff.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Like I said, it's
easier to spot somebody else's
lack of empathy than your own.
But over time you're hearingother people's stories and
you're hearing, and you'reseeing it over and over again,
that lack of empathy and howdamaging that is, and so it
begins to have an impact.
I mean to recognize this hasbeen the missing element for you
Lack of respect, lack ofempathy.
(28:28):
None of your relationships aregoing to work if you continue to
go down the same path, if youcontinue to think of yourself as
a victim.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
In your opinion and
based on your professional
experience, how many if youcould put a number percentage to
it of the clients that you'veworked with actually are able to
get on the other side of this,are actually able to pursue a
healthy relationship?
Is there any way of knowingthat Well?
Speaker 2 (28:53):
I mean we did an
outcome study.
Our probation department lookedat what happens with our
clients two years post-programand they looked at their arrest
records and restraining ordersand such, and the finding was
that 11.6% of the completers hadbeen rearrested within two
years or had a restraining order.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
On a domestic
violence charge.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Domestic violence
yeah, 20% overall and 30% for
the program dropouts had had, sothe completers were three times
less likely to have reoffended.
That doesn't tell the wholestory because there's also
domestic violence that's notleading to arrest, right.
And so we do maintain contactwith the victims throughout the
program.
Our program is really quitewell known for that is, the
(29:35):
extensive contact we have withthe victims.
We have a pretty good read ofwhat's happening through the
victims and hearing what'shappening.
Our letters are very meaningful, our reports we write a monthly
report even for voluntaryclients so that, for instance,
like 12 weeks of the program ifshe's still blaming it on her
that is going to go into herreport.
She's going to get a copy ofthat letter and that's helpful
(29:57):
because she wants to know is hemaking use of this program?
And so there's a type ofaccountability built into that.
I think that some battererprograms do not do partner
contact at all or have verylimited contact with partners
and as a result they'reoperating in the dark.
They have no idea what's reallyhappening.
Somebody could be a good groupparticipant but doesn't mean
(30:20):
they're not continuing to beabusive.
I think it's a real differencemaker among programs those
programs that have extensivecontact, outreach to the victims
, that informs their approachthat we're using.
We're able to keep pushing themto a higher level, because I
think those programs that don'tdo that, I think in a way
they're kind of reinforcing thissort of quick fix, this sort of
(30:42):
superficial change, not reallyaddressing what's really
happening in the relationship.
So that's something we train on.
We train, do a lot of trainingof other programs and so we
always promote that practice ofhaving extensive outreach with
the victims.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
You wrote a book
called why Do they Kill?
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Published about 20
years ago and you're working on
a new one.
What is the new book about?
Speaker 2 (31:05):
So the first book was
based on interviews I did with
31 killers incarcerated killersin Massachusetts and 20 victims
of attempted homicide.
This one will be more focusedon victims.
I'm looking at intimate partnerhomicides in three states
Massachusetts, which has thelowest rate of intimate partner
homicide in the country,tennessee, which has one of the
highest rates, and Colorado,which is kind of in the middle.
(31:30):
And so what I want to look atis what are the factors that
seem to result in high and lowrates?
One thing that we already knowabout is gun ownership rates.
I mean so Massachusetts, wehave 14% gun ownership rate.
In Tennessee it's 60%.
I'm also looking at women'srights within the three states
domestic violence services.
But I'm not comparing thestates so much as I'm looking at
what is each state doing toachieve reductions.
(31:52):
Even in states like Tennesseehas a very good high fatality
review team in Nashville, so onecounty basically Davidson
County and Colorado has anexcellent high-risk team and
fatality review statewide.
They make recommendations everyyear.
They actually follow up andreport on their progress towards
the recommendations they'vemade in previous years.
(32:13):
And then I'm doing theinterviews of the victims family
members, mothers who lost achild to domestic violence too,
by the way to illustrate thosepoints, to sort of show what it
looks like on the individuallevel in those cases.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Very interesting work
.
Hopefully we can meet again andlearn more about the outcomes
of that work.
David Adams, thank you forbeing on the show.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Thank you for having
me.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Genesis Women's
Shelter and Support exists to
give women in abusive situationsa way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence, and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
(32:55):
domestic violence.
You can learn more atGenesisShelterorg and when you
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