March 24, 2025 • 41 mins
Melissa Flynn, APR, MBA, brings nearly three decades of PR and marketing expertise to this powerful conversation about finding your voice during life's most challenging moments. What begins as a discussion about traditional crisis communication for organizations transforms into an empowering exploration of how these same principles can help women navigate personal crises with confidence and clarity.
Drawing from their shared professional experience, Melissa and host Maria MacMullin explore how communication strategies used in high-pressure corporate settings can be adapted for women navigating the challenges of discussing domestic violence, sexual assault, or everyday discrimination. For these and other adverse situations, Melissa offers a remarkably practical framework: in urgent situations, focus solely on stating the facts and expressing what you need. For situations with more preparation time, organize your thoughts around the facts first, then provide context before sharing your full story.
The conversation takes a personal turn when Melissa shares her own experience of being mistaken for an assistant in a business meeting despite being the leader of the presentation. These everyday indignities contribute to what the speakers identify as the broader crisis facing women – the systematic undermining of women's voices in personal and professional settings.
What makes this episode truly valuable is its emphasis on practical application. Melissa walks through specific examples of how to respond when someone interrupts you, talks over you, or disrespects you. The key? Practice neutral, fact-based communication before you're in a crisis, focus on what you can control, and recognize that finding your voice is a lifelong journey of small, consistent acts of self-advocacy.
Whether you're navigating workplace discrimination, courtroom testimony, or difficult conversations with a partner, this episode provides concrete tools to help you communicate effectively even in emotionally charged situations. Because everyone has a voice – and everyone deserves to be heard.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
When crisis comes calling, we typically have to
think quickly to respond and areoften ill-prepared for that
challenge.
While we might think of crisiscommunications as something
reserved for big business orgovernment, there are times in
our own personal lives wherecrises arise and we must
communicate widely andarticulately to various
audiences.
My guest, accomplished PR andmarketing executive, melissa
(00:24):
Flynn, joins the conversationwith sound guidance for
communicating with calm andconfidence even in the worst of
times.
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis, the podcast.
Melissa Flynn has nearly 30years of professional experience
providing strategic PR andmarketing counsel and smart
(00:46):
business impacting strategiesfor corporations and nonprofits,
as well as deep expertiseproviding counsel to C-suite
executives and communicationleaders on strategic
communications planning, brandpositioning and North Star
explorations, market researchand strategic implementation
issues in crisis management andcreative attention-getting
programming.
(01:06):
Melissa is also an accomplishedexecutive communication, media
and public speaking coach.
Prior to opening her ownconsultancy, melissa was a
senior leader at some of thecountry's top PR and integrated
agencies, including Ketchum andthe Richards Group.
She has an MBA from theUniversity of Tennessee, a BA
from the University of Michiganand is accredited in public
(01:28):
relations.
Melissa, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's great to see you again.
We met about 10 or so years agoand we became fast friends and
I have learned so much from youabout marketing and messaging
and how to capture an audience,and I often find myself
reflecting on your advice or aproject we worked on to draw
(01:50):
from the well of experience wehave established over the years.
One of our most memorableadventures, if you will, that
found us in crisis was whenEbola virus came to town.
Do you remember that?
Yes, I sure do.
Yeah, vividly.
We were both working togetherwithin a healthcare environment
(02:10):
at that time and it was hecticand harrowing and it was a long,
drawn out crisis and widespreadimpact with rapid changes that
had us turning on a dime.
We were really spinning.
When I think about where I amnow working with survivors of
domestic violence, sexualassault and gender-based crimes,
it seems that the experiencesof survivors are really not that
(02:34):
different from a majorlife-altering crisis we might
find in the media.
But I suppose the difference isthe scale, right.
So capital C and small c.
So capital C crisis, small ccrisis, but on a, because on a
macro level, the capital Ccrisis in this instance would be
the entire epidemic of domesticviolence, which is itself a
(02:56):
major crisis, but then eachexperience of violence against
women that is a crisis to her.
So the little C, because it's acrisis to her and a crisis to
her children.
So I'm saying all of that tojust set up for our audience
that you and I have been workingtogether for years.
(03:17):
You're the communications fieldand I'm in the domestic
violence space doing lots ofthings, including this podcast,
and I'm in the domestic violencespace doing lots of things,
including this podcast.
But I turn to you for yourexpertise in communication and
hopefully to get a definition ofcrisis communications so we can
kind of move out from there.
So, to begin, how do we definecrisis communications generally
(03:42):
and how are we able to applythat definition to the context
of women using their voice intimes of challenge?
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Well, first of all, thank you for letting me be part
of this podcast and this veryimportant conversation, Maria.
Yes, I do remember ourrespective challenge with Ebola
and many others, but let mefirst start off by saying you
know I want to say this toanyone listening I'm in no way a
licensed therapist or am Ipersonally privy to abusive
(04:10):
situations.
At this moment, however, what Ican say is that I am a
communications professional whohas spent decades helping people
communicate effectively duringreally tough times.
I think it's an importantcaveat, because I would never
want to position myself that way.
That said, I think a simple wayto say what crisis
communications is is how werespond when something really
(04:32):
serious happens that could causeharm, so that could be to a
person, or maybe to a company ora community.
It's all about getting theright message out at the right
time to reduce the impact ordamage and to maintain trust and
help those who are affected.
So you can picture how thatwould dotted line to women in
these situations Before I gothere, though.
(04:54):
Most of the time, I think whatpeople are most familiar with
when they hear the phrase crisiscomms or crisis communication
is when something major happensunexpected to a company or to a
city or a public figure.
So a scandal or a fire, or tolike the fires in LA, maybe?
Yes, you know, these arestrategies that are put in place
(05:15):
to provide clarity and concernand responsibility to folks
during that time.
Now to answer your directquestion about women in domestic
violence and abusive situations, I'm going to be honest, I had
never really thought about it inthat context until now, but
it's so relevant and I'm gladyou're bringing this to the
(05:36):
surface because crisiscommunications in these cases
feel so much more personal andurgent to me, feels so much more
personal and urgent to me.
It's more about survival andsafety and empowerment.
I often hear that phrase.
Speak your truth.
I think that is what we'retalking about in crisis comms
(05:56):
and domestic violence or sexualassault cases.
So, to use your phrase you hadsaid so women facing a small C
crisis.
It is likely in my view again,not an expert that there would
be ongoing, maybe many times, orimmediate threats to think
about from a communicationsstandpoint.
So I don't know, maybe it'swomen trying to find a way to
ask for help, just thinkingthrough how to handle
(06:17):
interactions with an abuser, ormaybe it's, you know, kind of
working with the legal system orpreparing for testimony, or
maybe it's you know kind ofworking with the legal system or
preparing for testimony.
So those are some ways that Ithink communications crisis,
communications skill mighttelegraph to what these women
are facing.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Yeah, I think you've got it.
I think you're onto somethingand I just back up a little bit
to something you said when youtalked about the fires in
California recently, about thefires in California recently.
And a crisis communication,there might be where to go right
, the direction that is needed,how to contact first responders,
(06:54):
where help is needed, whatroads are closed, where you can
find shelter and water and so on.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
So that's kind of managing within a crisis, right,
and then, clarity amongcommunication, clarity of
information, because so much,there's so much noise.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
So, yes, yes, and then there's the.
When I think of crisiscommunications, I think of
cleaning some mess up.
Okay, so I'm thinking of aterrible situation at a business
that the business needs tospeak to, and I can't.
The only thing that comes tomind to me might be some sort of
(07:30):
scandal.
I think of Enron, you know,many years ago, when that went
down, that was huge, hugescandal.
I think of sexual harassmentcases that, need you know, some
crisis comms around them forboth the victim and then the
company as well.
So I just feel like we can useyour skill set in communications
(07:52):
to kind of overlay tosituations where women are
really challenged, whether it'sdomestic violence or they're
just downright uncomfortablespeaking up for themselves.
I think that we can use some ofthe wisdom from the field of
crisis communications to guidewomen who are experiencing these
challenging things and maybehelp them find their voice and
(08:15):
tell their stories whether it'sreporting a crime to law
enforcement, testifying infamily court or simply talking
with a family member about theirexperience in ways that are
clear, calm and confident.
What guidance can you offer ushere?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
I think you drew some effective parallels earlier and
I think, in terms of a lot ofpeople think of crisis comms as
the cleanup crew or the protectcrew or it's the cover-up crew,
but I think in this context,with women facing very difficult
situations, I think it's abouthelping women feel that they can
(08:51):
communicate effectively in areally tough time.
So, while I can only imaginewhat these women face and how
daunting it must be to telltheir stories or ask for help or
report a crime, I think thereare a handful of things that
they can do and prep for andpractice and we'll talk about
that, I think, a little later tocommunicate effectively.
(09:12):
I think it's worth noting, too,that crisis communications is
such a specialty area becausewhen situations are difficult,
as you and I've both experienced, or even maybe dire, that's
when we get quiet.
Companies don't want to talk.
We don't want to talk as humans, we get emotional and we wish
we were able to speak morelogically.
When things are, there's a lotof fire in a situation or
(09:34):
difficulty and we want to beable to be proactive and calm,
and I think that probably isamplified in personal crises.
So I think it's even moreimportant here to have a few
tools in your toolbox, knowingthat you can pull them out in
tough situations.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Yeah, that's exactly what we're looking for Because,
to your point, when things getreally tough and hard and
emotional, and especially ifyou're in a situation where
you're being abused by someoneor you've been sexually
assaulted, finding the words maybe impossible.
Sure, especially when you'veexperienced trauma.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Yeah, I mean I can't.
That's the aspect.
I have dealt with so manycrises where the people affected
are in shock or the peopleaffected have very little to say
because they're just taking itin.
I would think that this is evenmore than that.
Yeah, so the way I, the way Ithought I might offer some some
counsel, is of two buckets ofscenarios to consider.
So my instinct is that thereare women who are currently in
(10:41):
abusive urgent situations, sothey need to use their voice and
their words to tell people, tofind help, to report the issue.
And then there's this otherbucket of women who are
preparing themselves to providetestimony, or maybe it's sharing
their story with family orfriends, and I'm sure there are
many other scenarios.
(11:01):
So forgive the generalizations,but the point is just to say
one is fairly urgent, need tocommunicate, and the other one
has a bit of planning.
I think together they have somesimilarities in how you might
communicate, but I'd like tooffer some nuances that could be
helpful as well.
So for the first one, which isthose sort of dire urgent
situations where time is of theessence, if I were in these
(11:25):
women's shoes and again, not intheir shoes, but hoping to help.
I'd focus on a couple of things.
The first is what is happeningFactual and second is what you
need your goal.
So what do you need from thismoment?
So what is happening?
What you need, Of course, whatI'm just saying.
What is happening, what youneed, of course, what I'm just
(11:47):
saying.
If you're facing an abuser orincredibly emotional situation,
it has got to be so hard, and Irecognize this From my
experience when situations arein crisis mode.
However, sticking to the factsand stating what you need are
key.
Okay, that would be for womenfacing Maria, those more
in-the-moment dire situation.
The second bucket which Imentioned, you know, those are
(12:09):
those that women might have abit more planning time for
testimony or storytelling.
I mean equally hard, but have abit more time.
I'd focus on being organized inyour thoughts, in your thoughts
.
So the natural tendency, in myview, is that when especially,
by the way, given traumaticexperience that these women have
(12:33):
likely gone through is that wewill share long stories that are
extremely worthy yet perhaps abit hard to follow.
I know that when I can speakfor myself, when I have had
stressful or very heavy, heatedconversations, I tend to go on
and on, because I'm almoststream of consciousness, right.
I would suggest kind of a stickto the facts approach first, so
(12:53):
the who, what, when, where, why, what happened.
Then think about your response.
So what did you do to takeaction right, or what did others
do to help you take action, andthen from there I think it's
that sharing the bigger picture,the bigger picture context, so
it might be.
You know history of abuse,previous reports, children
(13:14):
involved and affected, and thenbeyond that it's your story to
tell.
So I think you know the morecomposed and calm you can be
great and the more effective youare in communicating.
But again, sticking to thefacts, thinking about the action
you took, sharing that biggerpicture context, and then adding
in color, that is your story totell, will, I think, be an
(13:38):
organized approach.
When you are asked longer termsort of planning situations,
maybe it's related to testimonyor other things, and I guess the
end game here would be be surewhat your goal is again, what
outcome do you want when youleave the court?
What are you hoping they'veheard from you and why?
That's what matters at the endof the day.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
So that's a good framework.
And just to back up for aminute typically if we're
talking about the family courtsituation, hopefully she's going
into the courtroom prepared,with an attorney or some legal
counsel representing her and herinterests, right?
I think very often if you areworking with counsel, you'll sit
(14:21):
down and make these kind oflogical plans that you need in
order to tell your side of thestory and convince the court why
you should have custody of thechildren and he should not, or
something of that nature.
That's usually what familycourts are used for.
So a framework there is good,especially to your point, if you
have the time to think thisthrough, have the time to think
(14:42):
this through.
It's in those spur of themoment situations where you know
you have to.
You know they are veryemotionally driven.
The ones when you're in thatfirst bucket that you talked
about, which I think was the oneof having a really crisis
experience, and you're justtraumatized and in shock, and so
remind us again what you said.
(15:02):
You told us two things for that.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yeah.
So I think in those situations,just like in many ways, it's
how I would handle a crisis ingeneral.
So, and if you can't do this,by the way, in your mind, write
it down.
So if you anything that you cando, I'd focus on what is
happening.
First, factual information,right, and the second is what
you need, your goal.
(15:25):
So stick to the facts and statewhat you need, those two things
because I think if we getcaught up in all the emotion,
people have to pull apart andpiece apart.
I think of kind of like peelingan onion of what's really
happening.
So just stick to the facts andwhat you need is what I think
would help women in thosesituations.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Okay, so now zooming out to the epidemic of violence
against women.
There are a lot of voices inthis conversation worldwide, and
many of them offer poised andcompelling messaging, but on top
of what is already a crisis, weare facing a new crisis across
this continent that is impactingwomen in every way, and this is
(16:04):
the capital C of crises,because the women's movement is
under attack From a commsperspective.
How can we navigate thisadversity and stand our ground
in a dignified, yet very clearway?
Speaker 2 (16:17):
This is a really tough question and I gave it a
lot of thought ahead of timebecause I think, sadly, you're
spot on, maria.
I mean, there are layers andlayers and layers of attempts to
silence women and their voicesby pigeonholing us as hysterical
women.
Or maybe it's because we'relegitimizing men for standing
(16:38):
tall and being aggressive inbusiness and in life but
punishing women for doing thesame, and I think many of us
have experienced those kind ofsituations.
I mean, I think, in my view,whether it's the small C or the
capital C crisis, the onus is onwomen to recognize their worth
and to fight for it.
I believe and I know I'm I inno way am belittling or making,
(17:00):
trying to make it sound easierthan it is for women facing
abusive situations, but I hopethat the message would be you
are worthy of being treated welland having a voice.
Every woman is worthy of that.
I think there will always bepeople and groups and, frankly,
a male-dominated workplace thatwe live in until that changes
who aim to keep women fromrising to their full potential
(17:21):
and who, going back to that,belittle women's accomplishments
in the workplace and or who areclearly misogynistic.
So I think the answer to yourquestion is that we can't change
those people, but we can focuson our locus of control.
That is what we can affect Froma crisis communication
(17:44):
standpoint.
It's a regular position I takein my own mind what can I affect
and what can't I affect?
What we can affect is we cancontrol our own narrative.
I'm speaking broadly at themoment, not let others define
what we do and how we do it.
We can stick together as womenwho have similar circumstances.
(18:04):
We can stick together as womenright and who have similar
circumstances.
We can come together Maybe it'sabusive ones and ensure abusers
or gaslighters don't divide us.
And I think we can use ourwords to effectively communicate
what is and isn't okay withfacts and emotions, and I think
it's important to say,especially to this group of
women, that both are okay.
(18:26):
We shouldn't have to beunemotional or hardened to
succeed or be perceived as lessthan or weak, even because we
choose to lead with facts andemotions.
And I think oftentimes, at leastin society, women who have
emotions and this is speaking toyour sort of women's movement,
women who have emotions areperceived differently, and I
(18:49):
think the reality is we're notall supposed to be neutral
beings.
We have feelings and they servea purpose.
The key is how do we harnessthem, how do we use them to
affect what we can?
So I'll give you an example.
You had suggested that you know.
Consider some examples, and Ithink the Me Too movement is a
perfect example.
Right, it's women comingtogether, worst of circumstances
(19:13):
, to own the narrative.
They framed what had happenedto them with resolve, control.
Can they change these guys?
No.
Can they affect what'shappening around them?
Can they technically affectwhat they're going to claim?
No, but they can focus on theirnarrative, sticking to it and
(19:37):
sticking together.
And there was power in numbersright and it worked.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
That's a great example of kind of a
communications plan that hadsome very impactful outcomes.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
I agree and I think I look at those women with such
admiration because they werefacing what I bet a lot of these
women I mean fear and you knowwhat are the look at them and
say, you know, making excusesand belittling their feelings,
and they stuck together, stuckto the facts, said what they
wanted to happen and happen andreally won because of it.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
You know.
I'd like to just you know,maybe add to that and to your
point you're not a licensedmental health professional, and
neither am I.
I work for a domestic violenceagency.
I host this podcast, sure, hostthis podcast, but that doesn't
make me a social worker or aprofessional counselor.
However, I do think that what Ihope people listening take away
(20:34):
from this conversation is ourattempt, as two professionals in
different fields, to bring thisto people's attention different
fields, to bring this topeople's attention that there is
a way that you can make a planfor your communication.
If it's something that'salready happened to you, is
happening to you, or you justwant to be prepared for your own
(20:58):
safety and self-care in thefuture, you can make a personal
communication plan that willgive you confidence to speak
when you have to, and I thinkthe advice of sticking to the
facts and understanding what youneed the outcome to be is it's
enough to start the plan.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
I feel like it needs to be simple, because in those
moments we're probably not ourmost rational Right and you can
remember two things, and thosetwo things are what you can
control, which is state, thefacts and what you need.
Sure, so that goes back to that.
Yeah, I think it's worse if wehave a minute too.
(21:39):
I wanted to share an examplethat I have faced, because I
feel like in many ways I'mreaching over my ski tips in
this conversation, because Inever would want to imply that I
can relate, but I can from astandpoint of what it feels like
in corporate America, and Ithink it's worth noting that
(22:02):
professionally, thatprofessionally, you and I both
have seen how today's corporateAmerica rewards men right, and
that speaks to that largerwomen's movement too.
We see larger salaries for men.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yeah, promotions and benefits and getting ahead and
being at the table.
Just being at the table is abig, big one.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
It's so prevalent and I don't walk around as a woe me
person, as you know, but at thesame time, you can't ignore
some of it, which is very fair,like women should do whatever is
the office, housework right,simply.
Or maybe we just accept subtlyhostile work environments right,
and so those kinds of things.
And I wanted to share onespecific memory, because I think
(22:52):
this is how a lot of this kindof I guess it is maybe women's
activism begins, because we getsick of moments like this, and I
think it's related to women who, in these larger domestic
violence and abusive it's kindof how it starts, right.
So, like I had a CEO I walkedinto, I had a room that I was
(23:13):
pitching business in and a CEOwalked into the room.
I was the only woman, that wasall men and he walked up to me
and asked me to get him a coffee.
This was early on in my careerand he assumed that I was the
assistant and I yeah, I meanright to my face too, and no, no
(23:34):
, hesitancy, and, by the way, Iwas dressed in a suit, so it
wasn't like I was, you know, andI stood tall and I kindly
walked him over to where thecoffee was, and said very little
.
And a few minutes later helearned that I was leading this
pitch, right, and so I'm out infront making the business case,
and I'll never forget the lookon his face to this day.
I even know what he was wearingand I realized then and it
(23:59):
stuck to me enough to bring itup here that we don't need to
take those biases and live withthem.
Right, we don't need to.
But those are the small thingsthat do add up over time and do
build and kind of create thatenvironment that you talked
about.
And I know we're going to talka little bit more about finding
your voice.
But those are the moments whereI think back on what should I
(24:20):
have said?
What could I have done?
And the reality is, I'vethought about it every day since
.
So I don't let it happen, but Ithink there are some ways that
these are some of the ways thatit builds for women too.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah, and how we start looking at ourselves.
Those are those tiny buildingblocks that bring you to a point
where you finally realize, hey,me too.
Right, that's right, that'sright.
So what did you say to him whenhe asked?
Speaker 2 (24:45):
you.
Well, I didn't need to say muchbesides.
I mean, when I guided him tothe coffee stand, he kind of
looked at me like you're notgoing to pour it for me.
I mean, it really was that look, and I remember being a little
gobsmacked by it, right.
But after I pitched, he saidvery little to me.
I think I don't know if he wasembarrassed, I don't know if he
was realizing women can be smarttoo.
I'm not entirely sure, but Ididn't say much.
(25:08):
He didn't say much and Iremember thinking, oh, you
should have been stronger, youshould have walked up to him
afterwards and said you knowsomething a little smart.
And I thought, nah, you know, Iwasn't in that place, I didn't
have the tools.
Yeah, so now I do, and I wouldnever.
I might do something moredrastic now, but then right, but
(25:28):
then I didn't and I kind of Idon't know, I still think about
it.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
So I'm really glad that you shared this story with
us.
I think that it's important tohave the context of like where
you're coming from with some ofthis advice and the work that
you do, that it's not only froma textbook, it's not only from
your lived professionalexperience.
It's also been your personalexperience with kind of the ups
(25:53):
and downs of managing ornavigating the patriarchy.
So let's talk about helpingwomen find their voice in any
situation.
That may be a minor crisis,like standing up for herself at
work, case in point oraddressing an injustice, or even
just telling their partnertheir expectations.
(26:13):
Within a relationship.
How can we prepare ourselves tonavigate the unexpected, when
it happens, or just the everydayuncomfortable situation of our
lives?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
I don't know if you would agree with this, but I
think this is probably one ofthe toughest things women face,
mainly because we're conditionedin many ways to see ourselves
as both strong and emotional andthere's just lots of
conflicting feelings, lots ofcognitive dissonance, I think,
around it, and I talk with womenfriends quite a bit and
colleagues about what's like theright level of standing up for
(26:46):
yourself, and I think womenstruggle to find their voice
without feeling like they'rebeing overly emotional, right In
expressing it or they just letthings go, because conflict, you
know, with men in particular,can often be really difficult.
So where I've netted out onthis and I've shared this with a
handful of women, and and I'vealso, it's worth noting I also
(27:07):
am a coach, right, and I coach alot of executives, and so part
of me is like what do you say?
There is a lot of this inbusiness, there's a lot of this
in life.
So here's what I would say Idon't think there's any right
level of standing up foryourself or finding your voice.
There is only standing up foryourself, and the way that you
get good at it is throughpractice and the less emotional
(27:28):
you are in those situations,even though emotions aren't bad,
I think, the more effective youcan be.
So women will say things likebut I don't want to cry, and I
get that, I really do, becauseI've been in those shoes right.
Crying makes you feel just like, oh, I'm losing control.
So here's what I would saypractice phrases and approaches
when you're not in conflict ortough situations.
(27:49):
You know it's that look in themirror, talk to a friend
approach.
But I use this basic approachwith nearly every tough
situation at home and at workand in relationships.
And let me I guess it's worthnoting I fully appreciate that
abusive relationships don'toften follow rules right, so you
can't always follow a process,but I do believe that the more
(28:09):
you practice bringing back powerto your narrative and your
voice, the easier it is in thosetough moments to pull it out
quickly.
The more practice makes perfect.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
I think it's a lifetime of building up to
feeling like you're doing itright.
You know, feeling like you'vestood up for yourself and you're
doing it right.
You know, feeling like you'veyou're stood up for yourself and
you got your point across.
And when I say that, I'm notreally referring to women living
with an abusive partner so muchas if you have conflict in any
relationship or or within a youknow your intimate partner
(28:42):
relationship and you just wantyour partner to understand you
and what your expectations are.
That in itself can be extremelydifficult to articulate and
that I think practice is isimportant.
Practice is great If you'rejust, if you want to be able to
say what you, what you need tosay Couldn't agree more.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
I mean, it works in every fashion.
It works everywhere, whetheryou're in an extremely heated
moment at home with your partneror at work.
I actually have made it kind ofa pet project and probably
because, like most people, I'vedone a lot of therapy right.
Really think about what makesme feel that I can convey
(29:25):
effectively my feelings, retainmy voice authentically and have
some power in it.
Right, and I think theassumption is it always has to
be very loud and aggressive, andI think it's the opposite.
You know, my approach that Ibelieve puts power back in my
hands and others which I coachto folks when they communicate
is, first of all, you got tolisten to the person and really
(29:48):
hear and watch what's happening.
Don't react right.
I'll give you an example ofthis in a minute.
But then I think it's aboutacknowledging what's been said
and how you've been treatedright, and it doesn't mean
validating, it just meansacknowledging right.
There's a big differencebetween validating someone and
acknowledging what is happening,because it doesn't mean you
have to agree, okay.
(30:08):
I think the third is that youstate how the actions made you
feel and the final is piece iswhat you're asking for as a
solution, and I've and thereason I've sort of pulled this
apart is because I think aboutthe approach that I take every
single time now, learned acrossyears of work and life and
everything else, and I thinkthere's an example I can give
(30:29):
that brings this to life.
So let's say you're in ameeting and there's a co-worker
in this case we're talking abouta woman in a meeting and a male
co-worker that continues totalk over you or interrupts you
and they don't do the same tomen.
I've only had that happen to medozens of times.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
I'm sure many other women have too.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Just going to be honest here.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
I'm sure many other women have too.
Just going to be honest here.
I'm sorry, but I know exactlywhat you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
I'm not trying to be, you know, but I've had it when
you find yourself, you know,sort of putting that face on
where you're tilting your headlike am I imagining this or is
he just talking over me everytime I open my mouth, and so if
you react in the moment, I don'tthink it serves you well, you
know a reactive approach.
So I think there you can either, you know, be that person who
(31:15):
leaves angry or leaves with aplan, like an approach.
So maybe it's taking in whathe's doing.
Using that approach I mentioneda minute ago, like, so you're
taking in what he's doing, countthe number of times it's
happening.
So get like really left brainedon it and logical this as much
as you can, meaning, okay, stepaside and look up down on this
(31:35):
situation rather, and see, okay,so he's done this now seven
times and it's quite rude.
So you can either do two thingsright.
You can kindly pull him asideafter the words and afterwards
and state the facts.
So you can either do two thingsright.
You can kindly pull them asideafter the words and afterwards
and state the facts.
So you can say during thatmeeting you interrupted me
several times and talked over meanother couple of times, I felt
really disrespected by youractions.
(31:56):
My contributions matter as muchas yours do and, honestly, I've
had this conversation so I cantell you this isn't made up and
the key is waiting for him torespond.
Don't interrupt and hear him.
So you can think about this inpersonal lives or in work
situations.
I think silence in thosemoments is golden, because that
(32:19):
person can answer in a snarkyway and you can acknowledge that
, or the answer could be reallykind and apologetic and you can
acknowledge that.
So I have had this exactresponse, which is I see you're
not able to take what I'm sayingseriously and that's really
unfortunate.
Regardless, I expect to betreated with respect, so please
don't talk over me.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
I love that.
It's so.
It's the facts and it's notconfrontational.
I'm just telling you what thefacts are right, that's right,
that's right.
And how they impacted me andhow I would like us to conduct
ourselves going forward.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
That's right.
And now does it take practice,maria, to get to the point where
you can do that without wantingto launch into him?
Yes, but it also leaves you.
I mean, I guarantee you he'snot going to interrupt you again
, and he didn't me when I wasable to do this.
Now, in a dream world and someof us have done this too you can
actually interrupt during, likeyou can wait for a break in a
(33:19):
conversation and do the samething with a bit more, like you
know, gravitas, and louder toneor confidence, and say like
excuse me, john, I'd like toshare a few thoughts or whatever
.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Yeah, let me know how that goes for you.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
But it doesn't work very well and I think we know
that we can try.
I'd much rather pull them asideand have a factual conversation
and not react.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
It only reinforces what I think is a very rude,
disrespectful type of behaviorby then talking over the person
who talks over.
You Agreed.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Agreed no-transcript.
(34:20):
Honey, what was just said aboutthe way I do blank really hurt
my feelings.
And wait, see his reaction.
If you can stay that way andreally own your space, the
reaction is typically oh gosh,I'm so sorry, I won't do that
again If it's not stand up foryourself, right, I really would
hope you wouldn't do that again.
(34:41):
That really hurt.
Yeah, right, I think thosekinds of voices, I think we
think it needs to be, like Isaid earlier, loud, aggressive.
You know, I think the more youpractice the opposite, the more
you're actually able to findyour strong voice without a big,
loud impact in those toughmoments.
And that's what I would say.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
And that advice, right there, goes all the way
back to the couple minutes ago,when we were talking about how
women's organizations and otherscan make public statements
without being rude.
Make public statements withoutbeing rude, without being loud,
by simply stating the facts ofwhat is happening, reiterating
(35:23):
it right back to you, whoeveryou are the aggressor or liar or
mansplainer in this situation,and just presenting you with the
facts and saying this is notacceptable to us and we plan to
continue our work in the women'smovement to achieve equity for
all people.
Goodbye, that's it.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Exactly, and I mean, you know, in therapy terms, the
more we can stay in our wise,rational minds right the more we
win.
Yes, you broke a very importantboundary today and I'm really
hurt and concerned.
Yes, I will continue forward.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
And that was my hope for having this conversation.
Now that I've talked over youabout nine times in the past
minute, I feel very disrespectedand hurt.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Maria, I am so sorry.
I'm kidding.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Go ahead.
See, we can role play this, wecan practice.
This is practice.
See, we can role play this, wecan practice.
This is practice.
My hope was that we couldreally take a look at how we
communicate ourselves.
This doesn't always have to beabout someone else, either.
It doesn't have to be about theperson who is harassing you or
(36:32):
disrespecting you.
It can be about how do Icommunicate that engenders
respect for myself.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
That's right?
I think so.
I mean just seeing the moreempowered we feel to stand up
for ourselves.
Right To believe that we shouldhave a voice and then to use it
with practice.
Right To use it with practice.
I think so often we squash down, as women, feelings and we feel
like you know we need to talkand sound a certain way.
(36:59):
The reality is it's fair andcompletely valid to have
feelings.
I think the key is the moreneutral and factual we can be
helps those feelings be heard.
And I know that's a reallyconflicting statement, because
so often when you're feelingstrongly about something, it
comes across with emotionalityright.
(37:20):
But I do think with practice wecan help ourselves.
I really do.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
We can help to kind of shape that so that we will
achieve a goal that we want toachieve at the end of the day.
Not really talking about thisfor people who are in the heat
of the moment of domesticviolence or people who are
trying to respond to a tactic ofabuse, but if the time presents
(37:47):
itself and the opportunitypresents itself, anyone can take
a step back and practice theirvoice, because you do have one.
Everyone has a voice andeveryone has the right to share
it.
And, as far as I know, we arestill a country of free speech
and we should be able to saywhat's on our minds without
(38:09):
igniting either in a broad senseor in a personal, you know, in
a smaller setting.
Without igniting a fire, weshould be able to talk to one
another, and women are nottypically nurtured into speaking
their minds or presentingthemselves as confident or using
their voice, and so I wanted tobring this topic to this show,
(38:33):
to this specific audience whomight be survivors, who might be
people who support survivors,that a communication plan is
just as good for women on anindividual basis and in their
personal lives as it is for bigcorporate and institutions
nationwide.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Yeah, I applaud you for bringing this to the table.
I hadn't even thought of it inthis context until you and I
started talking, and I thinkit's so important because crisis
sounds like it happens to us,which in many cases it does, but
the truth of it is, if we'reprepared, it's less of a crisis
because we already have thoughtthrough what we need, how to act
(39:15):
, through what we need, how toact, lots of our language.
So, you know, to the women outthere who are wondering if they
have a voice and wondering howto use it, I would say just know
that there are tools, there areways to think of this that just
are centered around women'sability to stick to facts, to
(39:35):
know that their narrative istheir own.
They can own it.
They don't have to like oh, amI what I'm saying, true?
Is it too emotional?
Own it, it's yours, it's yours.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Yeah, and it's very empowering when you do that I do
think it's difficult for somemen to be in the presence of
women who are really confidentand know how to use their voice.
But I think we can change thatconversation as well.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
And I think I've, on the flip side, I've been around
so many men who are reallycomfortable around strong women.
So I think I've seen both sidesand I really appreciate both
sides, because not everyone's inthe same communications or sort
of, I guess, headspace journey.
But I do think you're right, wecan change it and I think small
(40:21):
, small things add up.
So as much as we have theselittle things that happen to us
as women that build up, we alsocan add to our toolbox and have
those build up.
So here's to women findingtheir way and women having their
voice and coming prepared withstrength.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Yeah, hear, hear, and thank you, melissa, for talking
with me today and applying yourexpertise to this topic.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Genesis Women's Shelter and Support exists to
give women in abusive situationsa way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
(41:06):
domestic violence.
You can learn more atGenesisShelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
Genesis Women's Shelter, and onX at Genesis Shelter.
The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, seven
days a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.
When crisis comes calling, we typically have to
think quickly to respond and areoften ill-prepared for that
challenge.
While we might think of crisiscommunications as something
reserved for big business orgovernment, there are times in
our own personal lives wherecrises arise and we must
communicate widely andarticulately to various
audiences.
My guest, accomplished PR andmarketing executive, melissa
(00:24):
Flynn, joins the conversationwith sound guidance for
communicating with calm andconfidence even in the worst of
times.
I'm Maria McMullin and this isGenesis, the podcast.
Melissa Flynn has nearly 30years of professional experience
providing strategic PR andmarketing counsel and smart
(00:46):
business impacting strategiesfor corporations and nonprofits,
as well as deep expertiseproviding counsel to C-suite
executives and communicationleaders on strategic
communications planning, brandpositioning and North Star
explorations, market researchand strategic implementation
issues in crisis management andcreative attention-getting
programming.
(01:06):
Melissa is also an accomplishedexecutive communication, media
and public speaking coach.
Prior to opening her ownconsultancy, melissa was a
senior leader at some of thecountry's top PR and integrated
agencies, including Ketchum andthe Richards Group.
She has an MBA from theUniversity of Tennessee, a BA
from the University of Michiganand is accredited in public
(01:28):
relations.
Melissa, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's great to see you again.
We met about 10 or so years agoand we became fast friends and
I have learned so much from youabout marketing and messaging
and how to capture an audience,and I often find myself
reflecting on your advice or aproject we worked on to draw
(01:50):
from the well of experience wehave established over the years.
One of our most memorableadventures, if you will, that
found us in crisis was whenEbola virus came to town.
Do you remember that?
Yes, I sure do.
Yeah, vividly.
We were both working togetherwithin a healthcare environment
(02:10):
at that time and it was hecticand harrowing and it was a long,
drawn out crisis and widespreadimpact with rapid changes that
had us turning on a dime.
We were really spinning.
When I think about where I amnow working with survivors of
domestic violence, sexualassault and gender-based crimes,
it seems that the experiencesof survivors are really not that
(02:34):
different from a majorlife-altering crisis we might
find in the media.
But I suppose the difference isthe scale, right.
So capital C and small c.
So capital C crisis, small ccrisis, but on a, because on a
macro level, the capital Ccrisis in this instance would be
the entire epidemic of domesticviolence, which is itself a
(02:56):
major crisis, but then eachexperience of violence against
women that is a crisis to her.
So the little C, because it's acrisis to her and a crisis to
her children.
So I'm saying all of that tojust set up for our audience
that you and I have been workingtogether for years.
(03:17):
You're the communications fieldand I'm in the domestic
violence space doing lots ofthings, including this podcast,
and I'm in the domestic violencespace doing lots of things,
including this podcast.
But I turn to you for yourexpertise in communication and
hopefully to get a definition ofcrisis communications so we can
kind of move out from there.
So, to begin, how do we definecrisis communications generally
(03:42):
and how are we able to applythat definition to the context
of women using their voice intimes of challenge?
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Well, first of all, thank you for letting me be part
of this podcast and this veryimportant conversation, Maria.
Yes, I do remember ourrespective challenge with Ebola
and many others, but let mefirst start off by saying you
know I want to say this toanyone listening I'm in no way a
licensed therapist or am Ipersonally privy to abusive
(04:10):
situations.
At this moment, however, what Ican say is that I am a
communications professional whohas spent decades helping people
communicate effectively duringreally tough times.
I think it's an importantcaveat, because I would never
want to position myself that way.
That said, I think a simple wayto say what crisis
communications is is how werespond when something really
(04:32):
serious happens that could causeharm, so that could be to a
person, or maybe to a company ora community.
It's all about getting theright message out at the right
time to reduce the impact ordamage and to maintain trust and
help those who are affected.
So you can picture how thatwould dotted line to women in
these situations Before I gothere, though.
(04:54):
Most of the time, I think whatpeople are most familiar with
when they hear the phrase crisiscomms or crisis communication
is when something major happensunexpected to a company or to a
city or a public figure.
So a scandal or a fire, or tolike the fires in LA, maybe?
Yes, you know, these arestrategies that are put in place
(05:15):
to provide clarity and concernand responsibility to folks
during that time.
Now to answer your directquestion about women in domestic
violence and abusive situations, I'm going to be honest, I had
never really thought about it inthat context until now, but
it's so relevant and I'm gladyou're bringing this to the
(05:36):
surface because crisiscommunications in these cases
feel so much more personal andurgent to me, feels so much more
personal and urgent to me.
It's more about survival andsafety and empowerment.
I often hear that phrase.
Speak your truth.
I think that is what we'retalking about in crisis comms
(05:56):
and domestic violence or sexualassault cases.
So, to use your phrase you hadsaid so women facing a small C
crisis.
It is likely in my view again,not an expert that there would
be ongoing, maybe many times, orimmediate threats to think
about from a communicationsstandpoint.
So I don't know, maybe it'swomen trying to find a way to
ask for help, just thinkingthrough how to handle
(06:17):
interactions with an abuser, ormaybe it's, you know, kind of
working with the legal system orpreparing for testimony, or
maybe it's you know kind ofworking with the legal system or
preparing for testimony.
So those are some ways that Ithink communications crisis,
communications skill mighttelegraph to what these women
are facing.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Yeah, I think you've got it.
I think you're onto somethingand I just back up a little bit
to something you said when youtalked about the fires in
California recently, about thefires in California recently.
And a crisis communication,there might be where to go right
, the direction that is needed,how to contact first responders,
(06:54):
where help is needed, whatroads are closed, where you can
find shelter and water and so on.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
So that's kind of managing within a crisis, right,
and then, clarity amongcommunication, clarity of
information, because so much,there's so much noise.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
So, yes, yes, and then there's the.
When I think of crisiscommunications, I think of
cleaning some mess up.
Okay, so I'm thinking of aterrible situation at a business
that the business needs tospeak to, and I can't.
The only thing that comes tomind to me might be some sort of
(07:30):
scandal.
I think of Enron, you know,many years ago, when that went
down, that was huge, hugescandal.
I think of sexual harassmentcases that, need you know, some
crisis comms around them forboth the victim and then the
company as well.
So I just feel like we can useyour skill set in communications
(07:52):
to kind of overlay tosituations where women are
really challenged, whether it'sdomestic violence or they're
just downright uncomfortablespeaking up for themselves.
I think that we can use some ofthe wisdom from the field of
crisis communications to guidewomen who are experiencing these
challenging things and maybehelp them find their voice and
(08:15):
tell their stories whether it'sreporting a crime to law
enforcement, testifying infamily court or simply talking
with a family member about theirexperience in ways that are
clear, calm and confident.
What guidance can you offer ushere?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
I think you drew some effective parallels earlier and
I think, in terms of a lot ofpeople think of crisis comms as
the cleanup crew or the protectcrew or it's the cover-up crew,
but I think in this context,with women facing very difficult
situations, I think it's abouthelping women feel that they can
(08:51):
communicate effectively in areally tough time.
So, while I can only imaginewhat these women face and how
daunting it must be to telltheir stories or ask for help or
report a crime, I think thereare a handful of things that
they can do and prep for andpractice and we'll talk about
that, I think, a little later tocommunicate effectively.
(09:12):
I think it's worth noting, too,that crisis communications is
such a specialty area becausewhen situations are difficult,
as you and I've both experienced, or even maybe dire, that's
when we get quiet.
Companies don't want to talk.
We don't want to talk as humans, we get emotional and we wish
we were able to speak morelogically.
When things are, there's a lotof fire in a situation or
(09:34):
difficulty and we want to beable to be proactive and calm,
and I think that probably isamplified in personal crises.
So I think it's even moreimportant here to have a few
tools in your toolbox, knowingthat you can pull them out in
tough situations.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Yeah, that's exactly what we're looking for Because,
to your point, when things getreally tough and hard and
emotional, and especially ifyou're in a situation where
you're being abused by someoneor you've been sexually
assaulted, finding the words maybe impossible.
Sure, especially when you'veexperienced trauma.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Yeah, I mean I can't.
That's the aspect.
I have dealt with so manycrises where the people affected
are in shock or the peopleaffected have very little to say
because they're just taking itin.
I would think that this is evenmore than that.
Yeah, so the way I, the way Ithought I might offer some some
counsel, is of two buckets ofscenarios to consider.
So my instinct is that thereare women who are currently in
(10:41):
abusive urgent situations, sothey need to use their voice and
their words to tell people, tofind help, to report the issue.
And then there's this otherbucket of women who are
preparing themselves to providetestimony, or maybe it's sharing
their story with family orfriends, and I'm sure there are
many other scenarios.
(11:01):
So forgive the generalizations,but the point is just to say
one is fairly urgent, need tocommunicate, and the other one
has a bit of planning.
I think together they have somesimilarities in how you might
communicate, but I'd like tooffer some nuances that could be
helpful as well.
So for the first one, which isthose sort of dire urgent
situations where time is of theessence, if I were in these
(11:25):
women's shoes and again, not intheir shoes, but hoping to help.
I'd focus on a couple of things.
The first is what is happeningFactual and second is what you
need your goal.
So what do you need from thismoment?
So what is happening?
What you need, Of course, whatI'm just saying.
What is happening, what youneed, of course, what I'm just
(11:47):
saying.
If you're facing an abuser orincredibly emotional situation,
it has got to be so hard, and Irecognize this From my
experience when situations arein crisis mode.
However, sticking to the factsand stating what you need are
key.
Okay, that would be for womenfacing Maria, those more
in-the-moment dire situation.
The second bucket which Imentioned, you know, those are
(12:09):
those that women might have abit more planning time for
testimony or storytelling.
I mean equally hard, but have abit more time.
I'd focus on being organized inyour thoughts, in your thoughts
.
So the natural tendency, in myview, is that when especially,
by the way, given traumaticexperience that these women have
(12:33):
likely gone through is that wewill share long stories that are
extremely worthy yet perhaps abit hard to follow.
I know that when I can speakfor myself, when I have had
stressful or very heavy, heatedconversations, I tend to go on
and on, because I'm almoststream of consciousness, right.
I would suggest kind of a stickto the facts approach first, so
(12:53):
the who, what, when, where, why, what happened.
Then think about your response.
So what did you do to takeaction right, or what did others
do to help you take action, andthen from there I think it's
that sharing the bigger picture,the bigger picture context, so
it might be.
You know history of abuse,previous reports, children
(13:14):
involved and affected, and thenbeyond that it's your story to
tell.
So I think you know the morecomposed and calm you can be
great and the more effective youare in communicating.
But again, sticking to thefacts, thinking about the action
you took, sharing that biggerpicture context, and then adding
in color, that is your story totell, will, I think, be an
(13:38):
organized approach.
When you are asked longer termsort of planning situations,
maybe it's related to testimonyor other things, and I guess the
end game here would be be surewhat your goal is again, what
outcome do you want when youleave the court?
What are you hoping they'veheard from you and why?
That's what matters at the endof the day.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
So that's a good framework.
And just to back up for aminute typically if we're
talking about the family courtsituation, hopefully she's going
into the courtroom prepared,with an attorney or some legal
counsel representing her and herinterests, right?
I think very often if you areworking with counsel, you'll sit
(14:21):
down and make these kind oflogical plans that you need in
order to tell your side of thestory and convince the court why
you should have custody of thechildren and he should not, or
something of that nature.
That's usually what familycourts are used for.
So a framework there is good,especially to your point, if you
have the time to think thisthrough, have the time to think
(14:42):
this through.
It's in those spur of themoment situations where you know
you have to.
You know they are veryemotionally driven.
The ones when you're in thatfirst bucket that you talked
about, which I think was the oneof having a really crisis
experience, and you're justtraumatized and in shock, and so
remind us again what you said.
(15:02):
You told us two things for that.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yeah.
So I think in those situations,just like in many ways, it's
how I would handle a crisis ingeneral.
So, and if you can't do this,by the way, in your mind, write
it down.
So if you anything that you cando, I'd focus on what is
happening.
First, factual information,right, and the second is what
you need, your goal.
(15:25):
So stick to the facts and statewhat you need, those two things
because I think if we getcaught up in all the emotion,
people have to pull apart andpiece apart.
I think of kind of like peelingan onion of what's really
happening.
So just stick to the facts andwhat you need is what I think
would help women in thosesituations.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Okay, so now zooming out to the epidemic of violence
against women.
There are a lot of voices inthis conversation worldwide, and
many of them offer poised andcompelling messaging, but on top
of what is already a crisis, weare facing a new crisis across
this continent that is impactingwomen in every way, and this is
(16:04):
the capital C of crises,because the women's movement is
under attack From a commsperspective.
How can we navigate thisadversity and stand our ground
in a dignified, yet very clearway?
Speaker 2 (16:17):
This is a really tough question and I gave it a
lot of thought ahead of timebecause I think, sadly, you're
spot on, maria.
I mean, there are layers andlayers and layers of attempts to
silence women and their voicesby pigeonholing us as hysterical
women.
Or maybe it's because we'relegitimizing men for standing
(16:38):
tall and being aggressive inbusiness and in life but
punishing women for doing thesame, and I think many of us
have experienced those kind ofsituations.
I mean, I think, in my view,whether it's the small C or the
capital C crisis, the onus is onwomen to recognize their worth
and to fight for it.
I believe and I know I'm I inno way am belittling or making,
(17:00):
trying to make it sound easierthan it is for women facing
abusive situations, but I hopethat the message would be you
are worthy of being treated welland having a voice.
Every woman is worthy of that.
I think there will always bepeople and groups and, frankly,
a male-dominated workplace thatwe live in until that changes
who aim to keep women fromrising to their full potential
(17:21):
and who, going back to that,belittle women's accomplishments
in the workplace and or who areclearly misogynistic.
So I think the answer to yourquestion is that we can't change
those people, but we can focuson our locus of control.
That is what we can affect Froma crisis communication
(17:44):
standpoint.
It's a regular position I takein my own mind what can I affect
and what can't I affect?
What we can affect is we cancontrol our own narrative.
I'm speaking broadly at themoment, not let others define
what we do and how we do it.
We can stick together as womenwho have similar circumstances.
(18:04):
We can stick together as womenright and who have similar
circumstances.
We can come together Maybe it'sabusive ones and ensure abusers
or gaslighters don't divide us.
And I think we can use ourwords to effectively communicate
what is and isn't okay withfacts and emotions, and I think
it's important to say,especially to this group of
women, that both are okay.
(18:26):
We shouldn't have to beunemotional or hardened to
succeed or be perceived as lessthan or weak, even because we
choose to lead with facts andemotions.
And I think oftentimes, at leastin society, women who have
emotions and this is speaking toyour sort of women's movement,
women who have emotions areperceived differently, and I
(18:49):
think the reality is we're notall supposed to be neutral
beings.
We have feelings and they servea purpose.
The key is how do we harnessthem, how do we use them to
affect what we can?
So I'll give you an example.
You had suggested that you know.
Consider some examples, and Ithink the Me Too movement is a
perfect example.
Right, it's women comingtogether, worst of circumstances
(19:13):
, to own the narrative.
They framed what had happenedto them with resolve, control.
Can they change these guys?
No.
Can they affect what'shappening around them?
Can they technically affectwhat they're going to claim?
No, but they can focus on theirnarrative, sticking to it and
(19:37):
sticking together.
And there was power in numbersright and it worked.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
That's a great example of kind of a
communications plan that hadsome very impactful outcomes.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
I agree and I think I look at those women with such
admiration because they werefacing what I bet a lot of these
women I mean fear and you knowwhat are the look at them and
say, you know, making excusesand belittling their feelings,
and they stuck together, stuckto the facts, said what they
wanted to happen and happen andreally won because of it.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
You know.
I'd like to just you know,maybe add to that and to your
point you're not a licensedmental health professional, and
neither am I.
I work for a domestic violenceagency.
I host this podcast, sure, hostthis podcast, but that doesn't
make me a social worker or aprofessional counselor.
However, I do think that what Ihope people listening take away
(20:34):
from this conversation is ourattempt, as two professionals in
different fields, to bring thisto people's attention different
fields, to bring this topeople's attention that there is
a way that you can make a planfor your communication.
If it's something that'salready happened to you, is
happening to you, or you justwant to be prepared for your own
(20:58):
safety and self-care in thefuture, you can make a personal
communication plan that willgive you confidence to speak
when you have to, and I thinkthe advice of sticking to the
facts and understanding what youneed the outcome to be is it's
enough to start the plan.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
I feel like it needs to be simple, because in those
moments we're probably not ourmost rational Right and you can
remember two things, and thosetwo things are what you can
control, which is state, thefacts and what you need.
Sure, so that goes back to that.
Yeah, I think it's worse if wehave a minute too.
(21:39):
I wanted to share an examplethat I have faced, because I
feel like in many ways I'mreaching over my ski tips in
this conversation, because Inever would want to imply that I
can relate, but I can from astandpoint of what it feels like
in corporate America, and Ithink it's worth noting that
(22:02):
professionally, thatprofessionally, you and I both
have seen how today's corporateAmerica rewards men right, and
that speaks to that largerwomen's movement too.
We see larger salaries for men.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yeah, promotions and benefits and getting ahead and
being at the table.
Just being at the table is abig, big one.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
It's so prevalent and I don't walk around as a woe me
person, as you know, but at thesame time, you can't ignore
some of it, which is very fair,like women should do whatever is
the office, housework right,simply.
Or maybe we just accept subtlyhostile work environments right,
and so those kinds of things.
And I wanted to share onespecific memory, because I think
(22:52):
this is how a lot of this kindof I guess it is maybe women's
activism begins, because we getsick of moments like this, and I
think it's related to women who, in these larger domestic
violence and abusive it's kindof how it starts, right.
So, like I had a CEO I walkedinto, I had a room that I was
(23:13):
pitching business in and a CEOwalked into the room.
I was the only woman, that wasall men and he walked up to me
and asked me to get him a coffee.
This was early on in my careerand he assumed that I was the
assistant and I yeah, I meanright to my face too, and no, no
(23:34):
, hesitancy, and, by the way, Iwas dressed in a suit, so it
wasn't like I was, you know, andI stood tall and I kindly
walked him over to where thecoffee was, and said very little
.
And a few minutes later helearned that I was leading this
pitch, right, and so I'm out infront making the business case,
and I'll never forget the lookon his face to this day.
I even know what he was wearingand I realized then and it
(23:59):
stuck to me enough to bring itup here that we don't need to
take those biases and live withthem.
Right, we don't need to.
But those are the small thingsthat do add up over time and do
build and kind of create thatenvironment that you talked
about.
And I know we're going to talka little bit more about finding
your voice.
But those are the moments whereI think back on what should I
(24:20):
have said?
What could I have done?
And the reality is, I'vethought about it every day since
.
So I don't let it happen, but Ithink there are some ways that
these are some of the ways thatit builds for women too.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah, and how we start looking at ourselves.
Those are those tiny buildingblocks that bring you to a point
where you finally realize, hey,me too.
Right, that's right, that'sright.
So what did you say to him whenhe asked?
Speaker 2 (24:45):
you.
Well, I didn't need to say muchbesides.
I mean, when I guided him tothe coffee stand, he kind of
looked at me like you're notgoing to pour it for me.
I mean, it really was that look, and I remember being a little
gobsmacked by it, right.
But after I pitched, he saidvery little to me.
I think I don't know if he wasembarrassed, I don't know if he
was realizing women can be smarttoo.
I'm not entirely sure, but Ididn't say much.
(25:08):
He didn't say much and Iremember thinking, oh, you
should have been stronger, youshould have walked up to him
afterwards and said you knowsomething a little smart.
And I thought, nah, you know, Iwasn't in that place, I didn't
have the tools.
Yeah, so now I do, and I wouldnever.
I might do something moredrastic now, but then right, but
(25:28):
then I didn't and I kind of Idon't know, I still think about
it.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
So I'm really glad that you shared this story with
us.
I think that it's important tohave the context of like where
you're coming from with some ofthis advice and the work that
you do, that it's not only froma textbook, it's not only from
your lived professionalexperience.
It's also been your personalexperience with kind of the ups
(25:53):
and downs of managing ornavigating the patriarchy.
So let's talk about helpingwomen find their voice in any
situation.
That may be a minor crisis,like standing up for herself at
work, case in point oraddressing an injustice, or even
just telling their partnertheir expectations.
(26:13):
Within a relationship.
How can we prepare ourselves tonavigate the unexpected, when
it happens, or just the everydayuncomfortable situation of our
lives?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
I don't know if you would agree with this, but I
think this is probably one ofthe toughest things women face,
mainly because we're conditionedin many ways to see ourselves
as both strong and emotional andthere's just lots of
conflicting feelings, lots ofcognitive dissonance, I think,
around it, and I talk with womenfriends quite a bit and
colleagues about what's like theright level of standing up for
(26:46):
yourself, and I think womenstruggle to find their voice
without feeling like they'rebeing overly emotional, right In
expressing it or they just letthings go, because conflict, you
know, with men in particular,can often be really difficult.
So where I've netted out onthis and I've shared this with a
handful of women, and and I'vealso, it's worth noting I also
(27:07):
am a coach, right, and I coach alot of executives, and so part
of me is like what do you say?
There is a lot of this inbusiness, there's a lot of this
in life.
So here's what I would say Idon't think there's any right
level of standing up foryourself or finding your voice.
There is only standing up foryourself, and the way that you
get good at it is throughpractice and the less emotional
(27:28):
you are in those situations,even though emotions aren't bad,
I think, the more effective youcan be.
So women will say things likebut I don't want to cry, and I
get that, I really do, becauseI've been in those shoes right.
Crying makes you feel just like, oh, I'm losing control.
So here's what I would saypractice phrases and approaches
when you're not in conflict ortough situations.
(27:49):
You know it's that look in themirror, talk to a friend
approach.
But I use this basic approachwith nearly every tough
situation at home and at workand in relationships.
And let me I guess it's worthnoting I fully appreciate that
abusive relationships don'toften follow rules right, so you
can't always follow a process,but I do believe that the more
(28:09):
you practice bringing back powerto your narrative and your
voice, the easier it is in thosetough moments to pull it out
quickly.
The more practice makes perfect.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
I think it's a lifetime of building up to
feeling like you're doing itright.
You know, feeling like you'vestood up for yourself and you're
doing it right.
You know, feeling like you'veyou're stood up for yourself and
you got your point across.
And when I say that, I'm notreally referring to women living
with an abusive partner so muchas if you have conflict in any
relationship or or within a youknow your intimate partner
(28:42):
relationship and you just wantyour partner to understand you
and what your expectations are.
That in itself can be extremelydifficult to articulate and
that I think practice is isimportant.
Practice is great If you'rejust, if you want to be able to
say what you, what you need tosay Couldn't agree more.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
I mean, it works in every fashion.
It works everywhere, whetheryou're in an extremely heated
moment at home with your partneror at work.
I actually have made it kind ofa pet project and probably
because, like most people, I'vedone a lot of therapy right.
Really think about what makesme feel that I can convey
(29:25):
effectively my feelings, retainmy voice authentically and have
some power in it.
Right, and I think theassumption is it always has to
be very loud and aggressive, andI think it's the opposite.
You know, my approach that Ibelieve puts power back in my
hands and others which I coachto folks when they communicate
is, first of all, you got tolisten to the person and really
(29:48):
hear and watch what's happening.
Don't react right.
I'll give you an example ofthis in a minute.
But then I think it's aboutacknowledging what's been said
and how you've been treatedright, and it doesn't mean
validating, it just meansacknowledging right.
There's a big differencebetween validating someone and
acknowledging what is happening,because it doesn't mean you
have to agree, okay.
(30:08):
I think the third is that youstate how the actions made you
feel and the final is piece iswhat you're asking for as a
solution, and I've and thereason I've sort of pulled this
apart is because I think aboutthe approach that I take every
single time now, learned acrossyears of work and life and
everything else, and I thinkthere's an example I can give
(30:29):
that brings this to life.
So let's say you're in ameeting and there's a co-worker
in this case we're talking abouta woman in a meeting and a male
co-worker that continues totalk over you or interrupts you
and they don't do the same tomen.
I've only had that happen to medozens of times.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
I'm sure many other women have too.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Just going to be honest here.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
I'm sure many other women have too.
Just going to be honest here.
I'm sorry, but I know exactlywhat you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
I'm not trying to be, you know, but I've had it when
you find yourself, you know,sort of putting that face on
where you're tilting your headlike am I imagining this or is
he just talking over me everytime I open my mouth, and so if
you react in the moment, I don'tthink it serves you well, you
know a reactive approach.
So I think there you can either, you know, be that person who
(31:15):
leaves angry or leaves with aplan, like an approach.
So maybe it's taking in whathe's doing.
Using that approach I mentioneda minute ago, like, so you're
taking in what he's doing, countthe number of times it's
happening.
So get like really left brainedon it and logical this as much
as you can, meaning, okay, stepaside and look up down on this
(31:35):
situation rather, and see, okay,so he's done this now seven
times and it's quite rude.
So you can either do two thingsright.
You can kindly pull him asideafter the words and afterwards
and state the facts.
So you can either do two thingsright.
You can kindly pull them asideafter the words and afterwards
and state the facts.
So you can say during thatmeeting you interrupted me
several times and talked over meanother couple of times, I felt
really disrespected by youractions.
(31:56):
My contributions matter as muchas yours do and, honestly, I've
had this conversation so I cantell you this isn't made up and
the key is waiting for him torespond.
Don't interrupt and hear him.
So you can think about this inpersonal lives or in work
situations.
I think silence in thosemoments is golden, because that
(32:19):
person can answer in a snarkyway and you can acknowledge that
, or the answer could be reallykind and apologetic and you can
acknowledge that.
So I have had this exactresponse, which is I see you're
not able to take what I'm sayingseriously and that's really
unfortunate.
Regardless, I expect to betreated with respect, so please
don't talk over me.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
I love that.
It's so.
It's the facts and it's notconfrontational.
I'm just telling you what thefacts are right, that's right,
that's right.
And how they impacted me andhow I would like us to conduct
ourselves going forward.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
That's right.
And now does it take practice,maria, to get to the point where
you can do that without wantingto launch into him?
Yes, but it also leaves you.
I mean, I guarantee you he'snot going to interrupt you again
, and he didn't me when I wasable to do this.
Now, in a dream world and someof us have done this too you can
actually interrupt during, likeyou can wait for a break in a
(33:19):
conversation and do the samething with a bit more, like you
know, gravitas, and louder toneor confidence, and say like
excuse me, john, I'd like toshare a few thoughts or whatever
.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Yeah, let me know how that goes for you.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
But it doesn't work very well and I think we know
that we can try.
I'd much rather pull them asideand have a factual conversation
and not react.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
It only reinforces what I think is a very rude,
disrespectful type of behaviorby then talking over the person
who talks over.
You Agreed.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Agreed no-transcript.
(34:20):
Honey, what was just said aboutthe way I do blank really hurt
my feelings.
And wait, see his reaction.
If you can stay that way andreally own your space, the
reaction is typically oh gosh,I'm so sorry, I won't do that
again If it's not stand up foryourself, right, I really would
hope you wouldn't do that again.
(34:41):
That really hurt.
Yeah, right, I think thosekinds of voices, I think we
think it needs to be, like Isaid earlier, loud, aggressive.
You know, I think the more youpractice the opposite, the more
you're actually able to findyour strong voice without a big,
loud impact in those toughmoments.
And that's what I would say.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
And that advice, right there, goes all the way
back to the couple minutes ago,when we were talking about how
women's organizations and otherscan make public statements
without being rude.
Make public statements withoutbeing rude, without being loud,
by simply stating the facts ofwhat is happening, reiterating
(35:23):
it right back to you, whoeveryou are the aggressor or liar or
mansplainer in this situation,and just presenting you with the
facts and saying this is notacceptable to us and we plan to
continue our work in the women'smovement to achieve equity for
all people.
Goodbye, that's it.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Exactly, and I mean, you know, in therapy terms, the
more we can stay in our wise,rational minds right the more we
win.
Yes, you broke a very importantboundary today and I'm really
hurt and concerned.
Yes, I will continue forward.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
And that was my hope for having this conversation.
Now that I've talked over youabout nine times in the past
minute, I feel very disrespectedand hurt.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Maria, I am so sorry.
I'm kidding.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Go ahead.
See, we can role play this, wecan practice.
This is practice.
See, we can role play this, wecan practice.
This is practice.
My hope was that we couldreally take a look at how we
communicate ourselves.
This doesn't always have to beabout someone else, either.
It doesn't have to be about theperson who is harassing you or
(36:32):
disrespecting you.
It can be about how do Icommunicate that engenders
respect for myself.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
That's right?
I think so.
I mean just seeing the moreempowered we feel to stand up
for ourselves.
Right To believe that we shouldhave a voice and then to use it
with practice.
Right To use it with practice.
I think so often we squash down, as women, feelings and we feel
like you know we need to talkand sound a certain way.
(36:59):
The reality is it's fair andcompletely valid to have
feelings.
I think the key is the moreneutral and factual we can be
helps those feelings be heard.
And I know that's a reallyconflicting statement, because
so often when you're feelingstrongly about something, it
comes across with emotionalityright.
(37:20):
But I do think with practice wecan help ourselves.
I really do.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
We can help to kind of shape that so that we will
achieve a goal that we want toachieve at the end of the day.
Not really talking about thisfor people who are in the heat
of the moment of domesticviolence or people who are
trying to respond to a tactic ofabuse, but if the time presents
(37:47):
itself and the opportunitypresents itself, anyone can take
a step back and practice theirvoice, because you do have one.
Everyone has a voice andeveryone has the right to share
it.
And, as far as I know, we arestill a country of free speech
and we should be able to saywhat's on our minds without
(38:09):
igniting either in a broad senseor in a personal, you know, in
a smaller setting.
Without igniting a fire, weshould be able to talk to one
another, and women are nottypically nurtured into speaking
their minds or presentingthemselves as confident or using
their voice, and so I wanted tobring this topic to this show,
(38:33):
to this specific audience whomight be survivors, who might be
people who support survivors,that a communication plan is
just as good for women on anindividual basis and in their
personal lives as it is for bigcorporate and institutions
nationwide.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Yeah, I applaud you for bringing this to the table.
I hadn't even thought of it inthis context until you and I
started talking, and I thinkit's so important because crisis
sounds like it happens to us,which in many cases it does, but
the truth of it is, if we'reprepared, it's less of a crisis
because we already have thoughtthrough what we need, how to act
(39:15):
, through what we need, how toact, lots of our language.
So, you know, to the women outthere who are wondering if they
have a voice and wondering howto use it, I would say just know
that there are tools, there areways to think of this that just
are centered around women'sability to stick to facts, to
(39:35):
know that their narrative istheir own.
They can own it.
They don't have to like oh, amI what I'm saying, true?
Is it too emotional?
Own it, it's yours, it's yours.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Yeah, and it's very empowering when you do that I do
think it's difficult for somemen to be in the presence of
women who are really confidentand know how to use their voice.
But I think we can change thatconversation as well.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
And I think I've, on the flip side, I've been around
so many men who are reallycomfortable around strong women.
So I think I've seen both sidesand I really appreciate both
sides, because not everyone's inthe same communications or sort
of, I guess, headspace journey.
But I do think you're right, wecan change it and I think small
(40:21):
, small things add up.
So as much as we have theselittle things that happen to us
as women that build up, we alsocan add to our toolbox and have
those build up.
So here's to women findingtheir way and women having their
voice and coming prepared withstrength.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Yeah, hear, hear, and thank you, melissa, for talking
with me today and applying yourexpertise to this topic.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Genesis Women's Shelter and Support exists to
give women in abusive situationsa way out.
We are committed to our missionof providing safety, shelter
and support for women andchildren who have experienced
domestic violence and to raiseawareness regarding its cause,
prevalence and impact.
Join us in creating a societalshift on how people think about
(41:06):
domestic violence.
You can learn more atGenesisShelterorg and when you
follow us on social media onFacebook and Instagram at
Genesis Women's Shelter, and onX at Genesis Shelter.
The Genesis Helpline isavailable 24 hours a day, seven
days a week, by call or text at214-946-HELP 214-946-4357.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.