July 9, 2025 • 27 mins
I had an awesome time chatting with Michael Johnson on the Business Choreography Podcast! 🎤💥 We went deep into SEO, how I got started (spoiler: I kinda fell into it 😅), and why backlinks are still the secret sauce for getting that sweet, free traffic to your site.
I shared my journey from working at ad agencies to building SEO Optimizers since 2007 and helping businesses turn website traffic into leads and sales. 💻📈
We talked about what makes a quality backlink (hint: it’s not about spamming as many as possible anymore), why SEO is a long-term game, and why optimizing for humans (not just Google) is the key to success.
If you’re a business owner wondering when or how to start SEO (hint: NOW!), or if you’re confused about keywords, website optimization, or backlinks — this is a must-listen.
I even shared tips on how to analyze your competitors, build trust with Google, and avoid those SEO mistakes that can do more harm than good.
🔥 Fun fact: You don’t need to be everywhere, just where your audience actually hangs out.
Huge thanks to Michael for having me back on the show — it’s always a blast! 🙏
Check out the episode to learn how to choreograph your SEO and marketing efforts so they dance in perfect sync. 💃🕺
#SEO #DigitalMarketing #Backlinks #BusinessGrowth #SEOOptimizers #PodcastGuest #EntrepreneurLife #ContentMarketing #BusinessChoreography #TrafficToSales 🚀
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
What's up, everybody?
Michael Johnson here with theWhat's up, everybody?
Michael Johnson here with theBusiness Choreography Podcast.
Business Choreography Podcast.
And I'm excited you joined meAnd I'm excited you joined me
today because we have atoday because we have a
very special guest,very special guest,
Brandon Leibowitz.
Brandon Leibowitz.
He has been on a couple of ourHe has been on a couple of our
podcasts and shows before,podcasts and shows before,
and I'm excited to have him backand I'm excited to have him back
because he's really cool.
because he's really cool.
You guys aren't going to wantYou guys aren't going to want
to miss any piece ofto miss any piece of
this interview.
Brandon has run and operatedthis interview.
(00:20):
Brandon has run and operatedSEO Optimizers since 2007.
SEO Optimizers since 2007.
They're a digital marketingThey're a digital marketing
company that focuses on helpingcompany that focuses on helping
small and medium sizedsmall and medium sized
businesses get morebusinesses get more
online traffic, online traffic,which turns into clients,
which turns into clients,sales leads, sales leads,
and who doesn't needand who doesn't need
more of that? Guys,more of that? Guys,
Brandon is an awesome guy andBrandon is an awesome guy and
(00:41):
I'm stoked to havehim on the show.
I'm stoked to haveLet's cue the intro and
him on the show.
Let's cue the intro andwe'll jump right in.
we'll jump right in.
Listen,there's a lot to learn when
Listen,there's a lot to learn when
growing and scalinggrowing and scaling
your business.
That's why we created theyour business.
That's why we created theBusiness Choreography Podcast
Business Choreography Podcastwhere we talk about
choreographing your marketingwhere we talk about
choreographing your marketingoperations and sales into
operations and sales intodynamic systems that increase
dynamic systems that increaseyour revenue and your impact.
your revenue and your impact.
We'll explore solid businessWe'll explore solid business
principles and discuss allprinciples and discuss all
things that make businessesthings that make businesses
(01:02):
dance to success with clarity.
dance to success with clarity.
We'll help you figure out whereWe'll help you figure out where
the holes are in your businessand what you can do to fix them.
the holes are in your businessand what you can do to fix them.
Think of us as your officialThink of us as your official
business choreographers,business choreographers,
AKA your insider growthAKA your insider growth
strategists.
Remember, strategists.
your choreography matters.
Remember,your choreography matters.
Welcome to the BusinessWelcome to the Business
Choreography Podcast.
Choreography Podcast.
(01:22):
Brandon,thank you so much for joining us
Brandon,thank you so much for joining us
today. I'm excited to have you.
today. I'm excited to have you.
It's fun to have you on theIt's fun to have you on the
show. Thanks for being here.
show. Thanks for being here.
Thank you for havingThank you for having
me on today.
Absolutely.
me on today.
Absolutely.
I am excited to introduceI am excited to introduce
you to our audience.
I want to start by making sureyou to our audience.
I want to start by making surethey know how cool of a guy you
they know how cool of a guy youare. So here's my question.
(01:42):
are. So here's my question.
How the heck did you get startedHow the heck did you get started
into SEO? I mean,into SEO? I mean,
what led you down the path to bewhat led you down the path to be
here today running this coolhere today running this cool
company and doing all thecompany and doing all the
stuff you're doing?
stuff you're doing?
I just kind of fell into it.
I just kind of fell into it.
Wasn't planning on it,Wasn't planning on it,
but I got my first jobbut I got my first job
out of school.
I got my degree in businessout of school.
I got my degree in businessmarketing and I was helping a
marketing and I was helping acompany doing their
(02:03):
digital marketing.
company doing theirAnd I didn't know much about
digital marketing.
And I didn't know much aboutdigital marketing.
They didn't know much about itdigital marketing.
They didn't know much about iteither. This is in 2007.
either. This is in 2007.
They said, don't worry,we're gonna take the classes and
They said, don't worry,we're gonna take the classes and
workshops and learn alongsideworkshops and learn alongside
with you.
And after working therewith you.
And after working therefor a few months,
just realized that everyone'sfor a few months,
just realized that everyone'sprobably gonna have a website in
probably gonna have a website inthe future and there's a lot of
the future and there's a lot ofdifferent ways to get traffic.
different ways to get traffic.
And what I was doing with themAnd what I was doing with them
was helping out with their SEO.
(02:24):
was helping out with their SEO.
I was Helping out with socialI was Helping out with social
media. I was doing paid ads,media. I was doing paid ads,
I was doing email marketing,I was doing email marketing,
kind of doing it all for them,kind of doing it all for them,
and just realized thatand just realized that
everything works to get traffic.
everything works to get traffic.
But SEO is just a wayBut SEO is just a way
to get free traffic.
to get free traffic.
And why spend money on paid adsAnd why spend money on paid ads
when you could get upthere for free?
when you could get upAnd that's what I focused
there for free?
And that's what I focusedon over the years,
working at different advertisingon over the years,
working at different advertisingagencies as a director of SEO.
(02:44):
agencies as a director of SEO.
And before work or after work,And before work or after work,
on my lunch breaks,on my lunch breaks,
I work on my own company andI work on my own company and
built that up to where I wasbuilt that up to where I was
able to quit my job andable to quit my job and
focus solely on this.
And ever since been doing that,focus solely on this.
And ever since been doing that,just helping people get more
just helping people get moretraffic to their websites.
traffic to their websites.
That's amazing. And it's just,That's amazing. And it's just,
it's so typical of anit's so typical of an
entrepreneur, you know, like,entrepreneur, you know, like,
yeah, we started off working foryeah, we started off working for
(03:05):
somebody else and realized theresomebody else and realized there
was a need and sort of endedwas a need and sort of ended
up in it. You know,up in it. You know,
building a businessbuilding a business
is challenging, is challenging,but when you have some
but when you have somecool insider tools,
cool insider tools,that's even better.
that's even better.
Now I want to kind of dig intoNow I want to kind of dig into
SEO because for the extentSEO because for the extent
of the Internet,people I feel like have been
of the Internet,people I feel like have been
(03:26):
talking about SEO from the verytalking about SEO from the very
start. Now I was around when it,start. Now I was around when it,
when there wasn't Internet andwhen there wasn't Internet and
it was just getting going.
it was just getting going.
And I,I remember back in that time it
And I,I remember back in that time it
already started popping up andalready started popping up and
being something that was talkedbeing something that was talked
about as being necessary.
about as being necessary.
So give me a kind of a littleSo give me a kind of a little
bit of history on SEO and howbit of history on SEO and how
it's developed and changed fromit's developed and changed from
(03:47):
when the Internetstarted to now.
when the Internetstarted to now.
SEO has been around for over 20SEO has been around for over 20
years. I got involved in 2007,years. I got involved in 2007,
so I wasn't there atso I wasn't there at
the beginning.
But basically Google is justthe beginning.
But basically Google is justtrying to find websites that are
trying to find websites that arerelated to them or relevant to
related to them or relevant towhatever someone's searching by
whatever someone's searching bylooking at what are
called backlinks.
looking at what areBy looking what at other
called backlinks.
(04:07):
By looking what at otherwebsites that talk about you.
websites that talk about you.
So if you're reading so GoogleSo if you're reading so Google
whole algorithm,the way they became popular is
whole algorithm,the way they became popular is
by ranking websites basedby ranking websites based
off those backlinks.
And the backlink is a clickableoff those backlinks.
And the backlink is a clickablelink from another website
link from another websitethat points to yours.
that points to yours.
So if you're on like theSo if you're on like the
newyorktimes.com and readingnewyorktimes.com and reading
a blog post or an article,a blog post or an article,
and in there it saysBrandon Liebolitz,
(04:28):
and in there it saysand you click on it that and
Brandon Liebolitz,and you click on it that and
it goes to my website,then I'd be getting a backlink
it goes to my website,then I'd be getting a backlink
from the newyorktimes.com andfrom the newyorktimes.com and
that is how Google reallythat is how Google really
started ranking websites.
It's like a popularity contest.
started ranking websites.
It's like a popularity contest.
The more backlinks you get,The more backlinks you get,
the higher Google'sthe higher Google's
going to rank you.
And that's kind of how Googlegoing to rank you.
And that's kind of how Googlestarted. And still to this day,
started. And still to this day,it's primarily based off
it's primarily based offbacklinks through algorithm
(04:49):
backlinks through algorithmand how it ranks websites.
and how it ranks websites.
It's changed a lot over theIt's changed a lot over the
years and how they lookyears and how they look
at those backlinks.
But that's really kind ofat those backlinks.
But that's really kind ofhow SEO kind of started.
how SEO kind of started.
And it's what it's at today.
And it's what it's at today.
Crazy.
I remember a lot of marketersCrazy.
I remember a lot of marketersand a lot of people talking
and a lot of people talkingabout the backlinks concept of
about the backlinks concept ofSEO and people would build
SEO and people would buildlike blogs and, like blogs and,
(05:11):
and do all this stuff and justand do all this stuff and just
start like it almost was likestart like it almost was like
spamming backlinks.
spamming backlinks.
Some stuff has changedSome stuff has changed
since then. What,what is it that's the main
since then. What,what is it that's the main
difference that's changed aboutdifference that's changed about
using backlinks from when itusing backlinks from when it
originally started that way?
originally started that way?
Well the backlinks originallyWell the backlinks originally
started as a popularity contest.
started as a popularity contest.
The more backlinks,the higher you'd rank.
The more backlinks,the higher you'd rank.
(05:32):
Now it's not the numberof backlinks,
Now it's not the numberbut the number of quality
of backlinks,but the number of quality
backlinks.
So what's a quality backlink?
backlinks.
So what's a quality backlink?
Right.
Quality backlink means it's aRight.
Quality backlink means it's awebsite that's related to you.
website that's related to you.
That's the biggest thing.
That's the biggest thing.
So if you're a doctor and you'reSo if you're a doctor and you're
getting a backlink fromgetting a backlink from
a restaurant, a restaurant,that looks a little strange,
like why is the restaurantthat looks a little strange,
linking up to the doctor?
like why is the restaurantlinking up to the doctor?
But if you're a doctor andBut if you're a doctor and
(05:53):
you're getting a backlink fromyou're getting a backlink from
a health related website,a health related website,
that makes more sense to Google.
that makes more sense to Google.
So all about relevancySo all about relevancy
with the backlinks,the more related to
with the backlinks,the more related to
you the topic is,you the topic is,
the better off it's going to be.
the better off it's going to be.
Then authoritativeness.
Then authoritativeness.
How popular is this website?
How popular is this website?
If you're getting a backlinkIf you're getting a backlink
from my website,it's a good backlink,
from my website,it's a good backlink,
but it's not the same tier asbut it's not the same tier as
like the New York Timesor LA Times or Forbes.
like the New York Timesor LA Times or Forbes.
(06:15):
So the bigger the website,So the bigger the website,
the more trust and SEO valuethe more trust and SEO value
you're going to get.
So relevancy andyou're going to get.
So relevancy andauthoritativeness,
authoritativeness,those are the two
those are the twobigger aspects.
But relevancy is number one.
bigger aspects.
But relevancy is number one.
That's the most important.
That's the most important.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
So is it that people have toSo is it that people have to
click on one of the backlinks orclick on one of the backlinks or
is it just that it's there andis it just that it's there and
Google sees that it's connected?
(06:35):
Google sees that it's connected?
It doesn't have to get clicks,It doesn't have to get clicks,
but it'd be great if it did.
but it'd be great if it did.
Right?
As long as Google just sees it,Right?
As long as Google just sees it,that's number one.
that's number one.
But getting clicks is ultimatelyBut getting clicks is ultimately
the goal. But for SEO,the goal. But for SEO,
we just really want Googlewe just really want Google
to see that backlink.
to see that backlink.
So when would you say, I mean,So when would you say, I mean,
we're talking to a lot ofwe're talking to a lot of
(06:56):
business owners and a lotbusiness owners and a lot
of entrepreneurs.
of entrepreneurs.
When is the worst time to startWhen is the worst time to start
adding SEO marketing effortsadding SEO marketing efforts
to your overall system?
to your overall system?
And when is the bestAnd when is the best
time to do it.
time to do it.
I would say there's no real badI would say there's no real bad
time to do it because if youtime to do it because if you
don't have a website launched,don't have a website launched,
you,you could still start building
(07:16):
you,you could still start building
some backlinks or still justsome backlinks or still just
get that URL aged.
get that URL aged.
Because Google looks at so manyBecause Google looks at so many
variables that the soonervariables that the sooner
you start doing SEO,the sooner you're gonna
you start doing SEO,get those rankings.
the sooner you're gonnaBecause it takes around six
get those rankings.
Because it takes around sixmonths or more to get
months or more to getGoogle to trust you.
So the sooner you start buildingGoogle to trust you.
So the sooner you start buildingthat trust up,
the sooner you're gonnathat trust up,
get those rankings.
the sooner you're gonnaSo I wouldn't say hold
get those rankings.
So I wouldn't say holdoff on it. Like,
(07:37):
even if you don'toff on it. Like, have a website,
even if you don'tbuy a domain name and just sit
have a website,buy a domain name and just sit
on it and have it likeon it and have it like
a coming soon page.
a coming soon page.
Because Google sees that URL isBecause Google sees that URL is
now not just a day old when younow not just a day old when you
launch a website, or a week old,launch a website, or a week old,
it might be two years old.
it might be two years old.
And the older the URL,And the older the URL,
the more authoritativeness andthe more authoritativeness and
trust that that URL getstrust that that URL gets
slightly, a little bit more.
slightly, a little bit more.
Gets a little bit of a boost.
(07:57):
Gets a little bit of a boost.
For those of us that are aFor those of us that are a
little bit more lame about thelittle bit more lame about the
concept of SEO and backlinks.
concept of SEO and backlinks.
You said building backlinks.
You said building backlinks.
What the heck does that mean?
What the heck does that mean?
Building backlinks or justBuilding backlinks or just
getting other websitesgetting other websites
to link out to you?
So there's a lot of differentto link out to you?
So there's a lot of differentways to build backlinks.
I would just spy on yourways to build backlinks.
I would just spy on yourcompetitors just using,
competitors just using,because if they're on the
(08:17):
because if they're on thefirst page of Google,
first page of Google,they're doing something right.
they're doing something right.
And these are different toolsAnd these are different tools
like Ahref or Moz or Semrush.
like Ahref or Moz or Semrush.
You have to pay for these tools,You have to pay for these tools,
but they'll show you anybut they'll show you any
backlink or any website'sbacklink or any website's
backlinks,and you can throw all your
backlinks,and you can throw all your
competitors in there and one bycompetitors in there and one by
one look at who's linking out toone look at who's linking out to
them and start reachingout to those sites.
them and start reachingBecause if they're linking
out to those sites.
Because if they're linkingout to your competitors,
(08:37):
out to your competitors,they would probably
link out to you.
they would probablyYou just got to get creative and
link out to you.
You just got to get creative andfigure out how do I get them to
figure out how do I get them tolink back to me instead of just
link back to me instead of justlinking to my competitor?
linking to my competitor?
Brian,is it a typical reach out?
Brian,is it a typical reach out?
Like you would network withLike you would network with
somebody at an event? Like,somebody at an event? Like,
do you reach out to somebodydo you reach out to somebody
specific that's in chargespecific that's in charge
of that, at that,at that company and go, hey,
of that, at that,at that company and go, hey,
would you do this?
(08:58):
would you do this?
Or is there some sort ofOr is there some sort of
exchange? How does that work?
exchange? How does that work?
All the above and tonsAll the above and tons
of other ways.
It's not just one size fits all,of other ways.
It's not just one size fits all,it's just whatever needs to be
it's just whatever needs to bedone to get that backlink.
done to get that backlink.
Sometimes they'll ask youSometimes they'll ask you
to sponsor an event,to sponsor an event,
so you might have to talk to theso you might have to talk to the
person that is in chargeperson that is in charge
of that event.
Or maybe it's A blog post.
of that event.
Or maybe it's A blog post.
(09:18):
So you want to figure outwho's that blogger.
So you want to figure outwho's that blogger.
Or maybe you're exchangingOr maybe you're exchanging
something where you're givingthem a free blog post and
something where you're givingthem a free blog post and
they're going to give youthey're going to give you
something in return.
something in return.
But it's all about just gettingBut it's all about just getting
creative and trying to figureout what the competitors have
creative and trying to figuredone and how to do a
out what the competitors havedone and how to do a
better job of it,of building those backlinks.
better job of it,of building those backlinks.
Wow, that's, that's crazy. I,Wow, that's, that's crazy. I, I
Ithink a lot of people out there
(09:39):
think a lot of people out therewould probably not know that
would probably not know thatit was that involved.
And so it's amazing to have ait was that involved.
And so it's amazing to have aconnection to somebody like you
connection to somebody like youwho understands all of that.
who understands all of that.
Is,is SEO best for websites or can
Is,is SEO best for websites or can
it be utilized for like,it be utilized for like,
funnels specifically or forfunnels specifically or for
like blogs or podcasts?
like blogs or podcasts?
(09:59):
Where is it?
Where is it best used?
Where is it?
Where is it best used?
So SEO is search engineSo SEO is search engine
optimization,and it's best to use wherever
optimization,and it's best to use wherever
there's a search engine. So,there's a search engine. So,
okay, you're on Facebook,okay, you're on Facebook,
you could search on Facebook.
you could search on Facebook.
If you're on Yelp,you could search on Yelp.
If you're on Yelp,you could search on Yelp.
If you're on Spotify or AmazonIf you're on Spotify or Amazon
or anywhere where thesearch feature,
or anywhere where theessentially there's ways to
search feature,essentially there's ways to
optimize your content to tryoptimize your content to try
(10:21):
to rank higher organically.
to rank higher organically.
So it's not just S GoogleSo it's not just S Google
or Bing or Yahoo,or Bing or Yahoo,
but anything that essentiallybut anything that essentially
has a search.
There's ways to kind of optimizehas a search.
There's ways to kind of optimizeyour website to get the,
your website to get the,get the more trust and
get the more trust andget higher rankings.
get higher rankings.
I see. So even, I see. So even,even places like Facebook,
even places like Facebook,you're doing search engine
you're doing search engineoptimization inside of there for
(10:42):
optimization inside of there foryour website specifically.
your website specifically.
Or for.
Or for.
To make sure that your FacebookTo make sure that your Facebook
page ranks higher.
page ranks higher.
So I see Search engineSo I see Search engine
optimization would be like,optimization would be like,
if you're an Amazon store,if you're an Amazon store,
we're doing it on your Amazonwe're doing it on your Amazon
store. Okay. If you're on Yelp,store. Okay. If you're on Yelp,
we're going to rank you higheron Yelp by optimizing
we're going to rank you higheron Yelp by optimizing
your Yelp listing.
If you're on Google Maps,your Yelp listing.
If you're on Google Maps,we're going to try to rank you
higher on Google Maps,we're going to try to rank you
(11:03):
higher on Google Maps,but it's not going to really
affect your website SEO. I mean,but it's not going to really
affect your website SEO. I mean,it might help out a little bit,
but sure, it's.
it might help out a little bit,but sure, it's.
Sure.
Not really.
It's really working on whateverSure.
Not really.
It's really working on whateverplatform you're on.
platform you're on.
So Google ranks websites.
So Google ranks websites.
That's where we want tooptimize your website.
That's where we want tooptimize your website.
Amazon is going to rank yourAmazon is going to rank your
product or your store.
product or your store.
So you want to optimize thatSo you want to optimize that
content on Amazon.
content on Amazon.
Right.
So how does that work for Right.
(11:23):
So how does that work forlike a Facebook group?
like a Facebook group?
Can you do optimization for aCan you do optimization for a
Facebook group the same as youFacebook group the same as you
would for a page on Facebook?
would for a page on Facebook?
Yeah, I mean, Yeah, I mean,it's all about like the title of
it's all about like the title ofthe group and make sure you have
the group and make sure you havegood titles with keyword
good titles with keywordthat make sense,
that help people findthat make sense, that group.
that help people findMaking sure that when you post
that group.
Making sure that when you postin there that you do or you
in there that you do or youpost keyword rich content,
(11:45):
post keyword rich content,make sure your status updates
make sure your status updateshave keywords in it.
have keywords in it.
You use hashtags that areYou use hashtags that are
relevant to try to drawrelevant to try to draw
new eyeballs in.
new eyeballs in.
And you can name your imagesAnd you can name your images
with keywords before you uploadwith keywords before you upload
them to the platforms.
them to the platforms.
You can name your files,You can name your files,
your podcasts, your videos,your podcasts, your videos,
all that stuff with keyword richall that stuff with keyword rich
file names before you uploadfile names before you upload
them to social media to helpthem to social media to help
(12:06):
them better understand what thatthem better understand what that
image or video orimage or video or
audio is about.
audio is about.
Right.
That seems sort of like Right.
That seems sort of likenext level thought.
next level thought.
I know a lot of businessowners that,
I know a lot of businessthat I've talked to in the past.
owners that,that I've talked to in the past.
Sometimes it's like, you know,Sometimes it's like, you know,
mvp, like just minimum viablemvp, like just minimum viable
product. Let's get it out there.
product. Let's get it out there.
They're not thinking aboutThey're not thinking about
doing all of that stuff.
(12:26):
doing all of that stuff.
So how challenging is it to getSo how challenging is it to get
that switch to happenthat switch to happen
for entrepreneurs?
Is it just that they finallyfor entrepreneurs?
Is it just that they finallyrealize that maybe they've put a
realize that maybe they've put awhole bunch of stuff out there
whole bunch of stuff out therethat isn't actually working and,
that isn't actually working and,and and you have to just kind of
and and you have to just kind oflike bonk them over the
head and go, hey, we,like bonk them over the
head and go, hey, we,we got to fix all that stuff so
we got to fix all that stuff sothat you can get some attention.
that you can get some attention.
Like, have you had an experienceLike, have you had an experience
(12:46):
with that?
Or do most people that come towith that?
Or do most people that come toyou have they already kind of
you have they already kind offigured out that, that,
figured out that, that,holy cow, I've been missing out
holy cow, on all this already?
I've been missing outon all this already?
Yeah,probably a little bit of both.
Yeah,probably a little bit of both.
But the best is justBut the best is just
telling like, hey,you're spending all this time
telling like, hey,you're spending all this time
and energy making an image orand energy making an image or
a video or a blog post or aa video or a blog post or a
podcast takes a lot of time andpodcast takes a lot of time and
(13:07):
it only takes a few seconds justit only takes a few seconds just
to rename the file name withto rename the file name with
some descriptive words.
some descriptive words.
So stuff like thatSo stuff like that
where it's like,they don't think it's important.
where it's like,But if you're spending all this
they don't think it's important.
But if you're spending all thistime creating the content,
time creating the content,might as well spend the time
might as well spend the timemarketing it properly because
marketing it properly becauseit's not easy to create that
it's not easy to create thatcontent. It takes a lot of time,
content. It takes a lot of time,research, effort,
research, effort,and little changes to optimize
and little changes to optimizeit just to maximize that
it just to maximize thatvisibility are going to be worth
(13:28):
visibility are going to be worthit in the long term.
But sometimes it's lettingit in the long term.
But sometimes it's lettingthem know, like, hey,
it's not working because you'rethem know, like, hey,
it's not working because you'renot doing this or.
Right.
not doing this or.
Some people are just like, hey,Right.
Some people are just like, hey,it's not working.
I'm ready to do whateverit's not working.
needs to be done.
I'm ready to do whateverLet me know how to do this.
needs to be done.
Let me know how to do this.
In that light, In that light,what do you think are the number
what do you think are the numberone mistakes that you see when
one mistakes that you see whenyou're working with your clients
you're working with your clientsthat they've done prior to doing
that they've done prior to doingSEO and using your services?
(13:48):
SEO and using your services?
Let's say backlinks are so veryLet's say backlinks are so very
important and either they're notimportant and either they're not
building any backlinks or theybuilding any backlinks or they
don't know what backlinks are.
don't know what backlinks are.
They don't know that they'reimportant or building the
They don't know that they'reimportant or building the
wrong type of backlinks.
wrong type of backlinks.
Where in the past it was justWhere in the past it was just
the more backlinks you had,the better.
the more backlinks you had,Like you were saying earlier,
the better.
like just creating a blog orLike you were saying earlier,
like just creating a blog orcreating a backlink to create a
creating a backlink to create abacklink was good in the past.
(14:09):
backlink was good in the past.
Now it's all about relevancy andNow it's all about relevancy and
authoritativeness and makingauthoritativeness and making
sure that you get goodsure that you get good
quality backlinks,quality backlinks,
not just random sites.
not just random sites.
And that's the part where I seeAnd that's the part where I see
a lot of people have either noa lot of people have either no
backlinks or the wrongtype of backlinks.
backlinks or the wrongAnd that's going to actually
type of backlinks.
do more harm than good.
And that's going to actuallydo more harm than good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Getting in and working withGetting in and working with
an expert like yourself on SEO,an expert like yourself on SEO,
(14:31):
if somebody's never done any ofif somebody's never done any of
that stuff and they've neverthat stuff and they've never
built in that mindset,built in that mindset,
how long does it take to starthow long does it take to start
seeing results from theseeing results from the
efforts of SEO?
efforts of SEO?
Because it seems as though SEOBecause it seems as though SEO
in the way that we're talkingin the way that we're talking
about it is a bit more of a longabout it is a bit more of a long
term play and it seems as thoughterm play and it seems as though
it might take a bit of time.
(14:51):
it might take a bit of time.
But what,what is your experience
But what, in terms of,what is your experience
of turnaround time for seeingin terms of,
of turnaround time for seeingsomething come back from the
something come back from theefforts you're putting in?
efforts you're putting in?
Yeah,no SEO is definitely more long
Yeah,no SEO is definitely more long
term because it takes timeterm because it takes time
for Google to trust you.
Google just doesn't trust anyfor Google to trust you.
Google just doesn't trust anywebsite and you have to build
website and you have to buildthat trust up over time.
that trust up over time.
And some websites will rankAnd some websites will rank
faster than others,but it really comes down to the
(15:12):
faster than others,but it really comes down to the
competitiveness ofthose keywords.
competitiveness ofthose keywords.
More competition.
More competition.
The more time it's going toThe more time it's going to
take to get up there,the less competition,
take to get up there,the less that needs to be done
the less competition,the less that needs to be done
to optimize your websiteto optimize your website
to get you up there.
to get you up there.
So if you're a brandnew website,
So if you're a brandyou're just pretty much
new website,you're just pretty much
starting from scratch.
But if you've been around forstarting from scratch.
But if you've been around forlike five or ten years, you,
like five or ten years, you,you build up a lot of
trust and authority.
you build up a lot ofIt's going to be a little bit
trust and authority.
quicker to get those rankings,It's going to be a little bit
(15:32):
quicker to get those rankings,but every website is going to be
but every website is going to beslightly different depending on
slightly different depending onjust the history of it and the
just the history of it and thecompetitors of those keywords.
competitors of those keywords.
How does the, How does the,the length of history that we
the length of history that wehave say, I had a website,
have say, I had a website,maybe I'm a brick and mortar
maybe I'm a brick and mortarcompany, I've had a website for,
company, I've had a website for,you know,
maybe Five or six years,you know,
(15:52):
maybe Five or six years,but I've never done any SEO
but I've never done any SEOor backlinks or on it.
or backlinks or on it.
Do I have some type ofDo I have some type of
reputation already with Googlereputation already with Google
and then SEO just goingand then SEO just going
to supercharge it,or is it just like you're
to supercharge it,or is it just like you're
starting from scratch evenstarting from scratch even
though the website'sbeen in existence?
though the website'sbeen in existence?
No, if the website's been No,if the website's been
in existence,then you're not starting
in existence, from scratch.
then you're not startingSo as long as you haven't been
from scratch.
So as long as you haven't beendoing any bad malicious things,
doing any bad malicious things,but other than that,
(16:14):
but other than that,you've been aging it.
you've been aging it.
Even though you haven't doneanything for SEO, you're still,
Even though you haven't doneanything for SEO, you're still,
that domain is aging and that'sthat domain is aging and that's
building up trust with Google.
building up trust with Google.
Yeah, Yeah,I've heard one of the concerns
I've heard one of the concernswith SEO and keywords and trying
with SEO and keywords and tryingto get that implemented into
to get that implemented intoyour site is that things tend to
your site is that things tend toget very repetitive utilizing
(16:35):
get very repetitive utilizingand trying to stay on top of
and trying to stay on top ofwhat keywords are ranking
what keywords are rankingbecause you're trying to use
because you're trying to usethose over and over again.
those over and over again.
How do you get around that orHow do you get around that or
how do you deal with thatso that, that your,
how do you deal with thatso that, that your,
your pages don't look ridiculousyour pages don't look ridiculous
by saying the same keywords overby saying the same keywords over
and over again trying toget that attention?
and over again trying toget that attention?
I think that's more of an oldI think that's more of an old
(16:56):
strategy where you're justputting keywords in the content.
strategy where you're justputting keywords in the content.
Sure.
You just gotta write Sure.
content for people,You just gotta write
not for Google or searchcontent for people,
not for Google or searchengines, but right for people.
engines, but right for people.
And naturally those keywordsAnd naturally those keywords
will emerge.
And if they don't emerge,will emerge.
And if they don't emerge,then you're probably not writing
then you're probably not writingthe right content about
the right content aboutthe right topic.
But I wouldn't just throwthe right topic.
But I wouldn't just throwkeywords in there to throw
them in there.
keywords in there to throwThat's a whole strategy
them in there.
That's a whole strategythat can.
Google changes every single day.
that can.
Google changes every single day.
So what works in the pastSo what works in the past
(17:17):
doesn't necessarily workin the future.
doesn't necessarily workAnd that stuff is very spammy.
in the future.
And that stuff is very spammy.
And anything that seems spammy,And anything that seems spammy,
I'd probably avoid it.
I'd probably avoid it.
So can really just focusSo can really just focus
on the user.
That's the biggest thingon the user.
nowadays is making sureThat's the biggest thing
nowadays is making sureeverything comes back to the
everything comes back to theuser having a good experience.
user having a good experience.
Not optimizing for theNot optimizing for the
search engines,but optimizing for people
search engines,but optimizing for people
essentially,and the search engines,
essentially,and the search engines,
but more for people.
(17:38):
but more for people.
Right.
It seems as though the AI thatRight.
It seems as though the AI thatthe search engines are using are
the search engines are using aretrying to emulate as best they
trying to emulate as best theycan what a great experience
can what a great experiencewould be.
And so it would seem that thewould be.
And so it would seem that themore we move forward,
more we move forward,the more that's going to be
the more that's going to beimportant is just to continue to
important is just to continue togive them as much value as you
give them as much value as youcan and optimize for a human
(17:59):
can and optimize for a humanbecause it seems as though
because it seems as thoughthey're trying to make
they're trying to maketheir AI and their,
their AI and their,their optimization act more like
their optimization act more likea human would. Is that,
a human would. Is that,is that an accurate assessment?
is that an accurate assessment?
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, definitely.
Everything needs to be human.
Everything needs to be human.
First AI bot, all that stuff.
First AI bot, all that stuff.
Secondary focus on people makingSecondary focus on people making
sure it's a good userexperience, it makes sense,
sure it's a good userexperience, it makes sense,
(18:21):
it's readable, it's readable,it doesn't have just gibberish
it doesn't have just gibberishor keywords in there just
or keywords in there justto throw them in there.
But it actually all offersto throw them in there.
But it actually all offersbenefits to the user,
benefits to the user,to the reader, to the viewer,
to the reader, to the viewer,or whatever type of piece of
or whatever type of piece ofcontent you're putting
out there,but just has to offer value
content you're puttingout there,
but just has to offer valueand be for people.
and be for people.
Right.
Right.
With so many different ways toWith so many different ways to
optimize a business's content.
(18:41):
optimize a business's content.
Right. You got a website,Right. You got a website,
you have funnels,you have your content strategy,
you have funnels,you have your content strategy,
whether it be on YouTube orwhether it be on YouTube or
Facebook or groups or whateverFacebook or groups or whatever
it is, Instagram,all the social media.
it is, Instagram,all the social media.
How do you even begin toHow do you even begin to
determine for one of yourdetermine for one of your
clients where to start? Like,clients where to start? Like,
what's the first thing you dowhat's the first thing you do
with all of those differentwith all of those different
(19:01):
pieces of content and thingspieces of content and things
that we're producing?
that we're producing?
How do you even get goingHow do you even get going
on what to do?
on what to do?
You just got to take a step backYou just got to take a step back
and put yourself in theand put yourself in the
user's point of view.
If you're looking for thatuser's point of view.
If you're looking for thatproduct or service,
what would you,product or service,
what would you,where would he be,
what platforms would he be on?
where would he be,what platforms would he be on?
What keywords would you beWhat keywords would you be
using? Would he be on Google,using? Would he be on Google,
Would you be on Instagram,Would you be on Instagram,
would he be on Yelp?
(19:22):
would he be on Yelp?
Where would you be?
And it's really just tryingWhere would you be?
And it's really just tryingto take a step back,
which it's tough forto take a step back,
business owners,which it's tough for
but gotta really understand whobusiness owners,
but gotta really understand whoyour audience is and
your audience is andwhere are they.
You don't have to be everywhere,where are they.
You don't have to be everywhere,you just need to be where
your audience is.
you just need to be whereThat's gonna help save you a
your audience is.
That's gonna help save you alot of time and headaches.
lot of time and headaches.
Sure.
And I imagine that that's oneSure.
And I imagine that that's onearea being that you guys are
area being that you guys aresuch a long running successful
(19:44):
such a long running successfulcompany that you guys exc.
company that you guys exc.
As you help entrepreneurs andAs you help entrepreneurs and
owners get in and going, you,owners get in and going, you,
you guys are probably reallyyou guys are probably really
great at helping that.
great at helping that.
So So what, what,what should somebody expect?
what should somebody expect?
Like, okay, Like, okay,somebody out here is listening.
somebody out here is listening.
One of our listeners goes, okay,One of our listeners goes, okay,
I like this Brandon guy,I like this Brandon guy,
(20:05):
sounds pretty cool.
sounds pretty cool.
He knows what he's doing.
He knows what he's doing.
What should they expect as theyWhat should they expect as they
start to come in to work withstart to come in to work with
you? How does the process go?
you? How does the process go?
And how,how should they expect getting
And how,how should they expect getting
started to look and feel like,started to look and feel like,
well.
Every website is going well.
Every website is goingto be different,
so it's not really ato be different,
so it's not really aone size fits all,
but always starts off withone size fits all,
but always starts off withthe website analysis,
the website analysis,trying to figure out what needs
trying to figure out what needsto be done and what the
(20:26):
to be done and what thedisconnect is from their website
disconnect is from their websiteversus their competitors and how
versus their competitors and howto get them to the level that
to get them to the level thatthey want to be at.
So got to do that researchthey want to be at.
So got to do that researchinitially, initially,
analyzing their website andanalyzing their website and
analyzing the competitors justanalyzing the competitors just
Trying to figure out what theTrying to figure out what the
competition's done and what thecompetition's done and what the
client has done and how to getclient has done and how to get
those levels to be equal or getthose levels to be equal or get
(20:46):
them higher for their client.
them higher for their client.
Sure.
Sure.
How do you deal with you know,How do you deal with you know,
like if,let's say they don't have
like if,let's say they don't have
a website presence,but they have you know,
a website presence,but they have you know,
five or six different funnelsfive or six different funnels
that are producing income and,that are producing income and,
and working for them. How does,and working for them. How does,
how do backlinks work on ahow do backlinks work on a
funnel and, and doing that,funnel and, and doing that,
Is it the same thing or is itIs it the same thing or is it
just that you handle itcompletely different?
(21:07):
just that you handle itcompletely different?
What would a funnel be exactly?
What would a funnel be exactly?
Well,just like a specific sales page
Well,just like a specific sales page
that went into like an upsellthat went into like an upsell
and then maybe another upsell.
and then maybe another upsell.
But it wasn't necessarilyBut it wasn't necessarily
designed for website per se.
designed for website per se.
But it's still on a website.
But it's still on a website.
Sure.
Then, yeah, you can optimize it.
Sure.
Then, yeah, you can optimize it.
But if it's not on a website,But if it's not on a website,
(21:27):
then there's nothing youthen there's nothing you
could do for SEO.
But if it's on the website,could do for SEO.
then you do all the stuff thatBut if it's on the website,
then you do all the stuff thatwe were talking about going in,
we were talking about going in,putting the keywords in the
content, building backlinks,putting the keywords in the
content, building backlinks,optimizing your images, videos,
optimizing your images, videos,all that stuff.
But if it's not on a website,all that stuff.
But if it's not on a website,then you can't do it.
But if it's on a website,then you can't do it.
But if it's on a website,a landing page is still a
a landing page is still awebsite. It's not any different.
website. It's not any different.
Right, right.
Right, right.
As long as there's a URL,As long as there's a URL,
(21:47):
it's a page on the Internet.
it's a page on the Internet.
So as long as the URL that couldSo as long as the URL that could
be ranked and as long asbe ranked and as long as
you have control of it.
But if you're on likeyou have control of it.
click funnels,But if you're on like
then you can't reallyclick funnels,
optimize that much.
then you can't reallyBut if you build your own
optimize that much.
But if you build your owninternal funnel on
internal funnel onyour own website,
which is a better way to do it,your own website,
which is a better way to do it,that way you don't have to pay
the fees and all thatthat way you don't have to pay
extra stuff,the fees and all that
because you could build all thatextra stuff,
because you could build all thatstuff for pennies on the dollar
stuff for pennies on the dollarthat they're selling it for and
that they're selling it for andget way more functionality and
get way more functionality andfeatures that will help you out
(22:08):
features that will help you outway more and have full control
way more and have full controlover everything instead of just
over everything instead of justrenting space off in
another platform.
renting space off inanother platform.
I see. That's, I see. That's,that's pretty cool.
And I think a lot of peoplethat's pretty cool.
And I think a lot of peoplemaybe don't know that and don't
maybe don't know that and don'tknow and don't realize
know and don't realizethat they're, like you said,
that they're,renting space off of another
like you said,renting space off of another
platform and therefore they haveplatform and therefore they have
less functionality, maybe,less functionality, maybe,
maybe less ability to domaybe less ability to do
(22:30):
some of that stuff.
some of that stuff.
What what are some of yourWhat what are some of your
favorite platforms tofavorite platforms to
to build on and,to build on and,
or to have maybe a website builtor to have maybe a website built
that can be fully optimized?
that can be fully optimized?
I'd say WordPress is the best.
I'd say WordPress is the best.
But if you're not tech savvy,But if you're not tech savvy,
then you can do Shopifyfor E Commerce.
then you can do ShopifyBut I try to avoid Wix
for E Commerce.
But I try to avoid Wixor Squarespace.
They're not the best.
or Squarespace.
But WordPress stuff doThey're not the best.
(22:51):
But WordPress stuff doeverything any platform
everything any platformcould do for free.
could do for free.
Right, right.
Right, right.
And you said clickfunnels wasAnd you said clickfunnels was
a little rough to do it in.
a little rough to do it in.
Do you find that to be the sameDo you find that to be the same
with most funnel builder type?
with most funnel builder type?
No,they're not rough to work with,
No,but you just build everything
they're not rough to work with,but you just build everything
yourself instead of having toyourself instead of having to
pay ClickFunnels orpay ClickFunnels or
another platform,you could do it all yourself
another platform,you could do it all yourself
(23:11):
for much cheaper.
for much cheaper.
I see, I see. Yeah,I see, I see. Yeah,
that makes a lot of sense.
that makes a lot of sense.
Well, that's cool. I, I,Well, that's cool. I, I,
I feel like the I feel like theI feel like the knowledge
I feel like the knowledgearound SEO is like,
around SEO is like,everybody knows it exists.
everybody knows it exists.
Everybody kind of talks aboutEverybody kind of talks about
it, like, oh, you should do SEO.
it, like, oh, you should do SEO.
(23:32):
And then you go, well,are you doing it?
And then you go, well,And they're like, no,
are you doing it?
And they're like, no,I' so I feel like there's this
I' so I feel like there's thisspace where understanding SEO
space where understanding SEOand feeling comfortable with it
and feeling comfortable with itand then bringing on an expert
and then bringing on an expertsuch as yourself to
such as yourself tohelp with it.
help with it.
As I have been on my journeysAs I have been on my journeys
and talked to lots of differentand talked to lots of different
(23:52):
owners,I feel like there's a fear
owners,I feel like there's a fear
about it. Like, oh, no,about it. Like, oh, no,
I'm worried about it.
I'm worried about it.
I don't understand it.
I don't understand it.
It's confusing to me.
It's confusing to me.
What would you sayWhat would you say
to those owners?
That they're kind of like, yeah,to those owners?
That they're kind of like, yeah,I know I need to do it,
I know I need to do it,but I'm a little worried.
but I'm a little worried.
I'm afraid to do it.
I'm afraid to do it.
I'm afraid to put somebodyI'm afraid to put somebody
in there and,and not understand it well
in there and,and not understand it well
(24:12):
enough to do it myself,enough to do it myself,
you know,because a lot of entrepreneurs
you know,because a lot of entrepreneurs
are like,I've got to learn to do it
are like,I've got to learn to do it
myself before I pass it on.
myself before I pass it on.
Which I highly recommend you getWhich I highly recommend you get
over it. But, you know, like,over it. But, you know, like,
what can you tell them ifwhat can you tell them if
they're worried about gettingthey're worried about getting
started with it,how can you ease the
started with it,how can you ease the
fear a little bit?
fear a little bit?
Yeah,I would just show them how many
Yeah,I would just show them how many
people are searching for theirpeople are searching for their
(24:33):
keywords every single month andkeywords every single month and
tools like the Google Keywordtools like the Google Keyword
Planner, which shows you that,Planner, which shows you that,
and show you what they'reand show you what they're
missing out on and where themissing out on and where the
competitors are getting thattraffic and just try
competitors are getting thattraffic and just try
to show them that.
But if they're fearfulto show them that.
But if they're fearfuland worried, I mean,
there's nothing you really do toand worried, I mean,
there's nothing you really do toalleviate that except for show
alleviate that except for showthem case studies and results.
them case studies and results.
But if they're worried,But if they're worried,
that's more on them tothat's more on them to
(24:54):
get over that fear.
get over that fear.
Yeah, for sure. Well,Yeah, for sure. Well,
it's so important toit's so important to
find your who.
find your who.
So all of you outthere listening,
So all of you outthere are lots of people that
there listening,there are lots of people that
can help and be expertscan help and be experts
at different things.
at different things.
And Brandon is legit.
And Brandon is legit.
He Is your who if youHe Is your who if you
want to do some SEO,want to do some SEO,
he knows what he's doing.
he knows what he's doing.
(25:14):
He knows and has it down.
He knows and has it down.
He's figured it out.
You don't stay in business forHe's figured it out.
You don't stay in business foras many years as they have
as many years as they havewithout having figured it out
without having figured it outand helped your clients in a
and helped your clients in areally great way. So, Brandon,
really great way. So, Brandon,how can our listeners get
how can our listeners getin contact with you?
in contact with you?
How can they come in and startHow can they come in and start
to utilize your expertise and,to utilize your expertise and,
and get their businesses to takeand get their businesses to take
(25:35):
off using all of youroff using all of your
skill set and, skill set and,and well, and
all the things your well,company offers.
all the things yourcompany offers.
So for anyone that wantsSo for anyone that wants
to learn more,I created a special gift
to learn more,I created a special gift
for them on my website.
for them on my website.
If they go to seooptimizers.com,If they go to seooptimizers.com,
that's SEO optimization.
that's SEO optimization.
O P T I I z E-R-S.comO P T I I z E-R-S.com
(25:57):
forward/gift.
forward/gift.
And they can find that thereAnd they can find that there
along with my contactinformation and a bunch of
along with my contactinformation and a bunch of
classes I've done over the yearsclasses I've done over the years
I've thrown up for free.
And also,I've thrown up for free.
if they want to book someAnd also, time on my calendar,
if they want to book sometime on my calendar,
I'm happy to check out theirI'm happy to check out their
website from an SEO point ofwebsite from an SEO point of
view for free and give them someview for free and give them some
feedback about what's workingfeedback about what's working
and what's not working and howand what's not working and how
to get them to that levelto get them to that level
that they want to be at.
that they want to be at.
I love that.
(26:18):
I love that.
That's so kind of you.
That's so kind of you.
I appreciate that and I know ourI appreciate that and I know our
listeners are going to love it.
listeners are going to love it.
Excited for you guys to goExcited for you guys to go
and take advantage of it.
and take advantage of it.
Don't miss out on thisDon't miss out on this
opportunity.
You've gotten to know a littleopportunity.
You've gotten to know a littlebit about Brandon.
bit about Brandon.
And I appreciate you so much forAnd I appreciate you so much for
joining us today and beingjoining us today and being
so forthcoming, so forthcoming,sharing with us some of your
(26:39):
sharing with us some of yourknowledge and expertise
knowledge and expertisealong your journey.
along your journey.
And I know it's going tohelp a lot of people.
And I know it's going toSo thank you so much
help a lot of people.
for being here.
So thank you so muchThanks for joining
for being here.
Thanks for joiningus on the show.
Can't wait to haveus on the show.
you back again.
Can't wait to haveWe'll talk about some more stuff
you back again.
We'll talk about some more stuffand yeah, thanks for being here.
and yeah, thanks for being here.
Thanks for joining us today.
Thanks for joining us today.
Want more business choreography?
Want more business choreography?
(26:59):
Check out ourwebsite@bizchoreo.com
Check out ourwebsite@bizchoreo.com
to find out.
More and find out how theto find out.
More and find out how thechoreography for your marketing,
choreography for your marketing,operations and sales can raise
operations and sales can raiseyour revenue and create
your revenue and createmore impact.
Remember, more impact.
every business needs Remember,every business needs
choreography.
choreography.
What's up, everybody?
Michael Johnson here with theWhat's up, everybody?
Michael Johnson here with theBusiness Choreography Podcast.
Business Choreography Podcast.
And I'm excited you joined meAnd I'm excited you joined me
today because we have atoday because we have a
very special guest,very special guest,
Brandon Leibowitz.
Brandon Leibowitz.
He has been on a couple of ourHe has been on a couple of our
podcasts and shows before,podcasts and shows before,
and I'm excited to have him backand I'm excited to have him back
because he's really cool.
because he's really cool.
You guys aren't going to wantYou guys aren't going to want
to miss any piece ofto miss any piece of
this interview.
Brandon has run and operatedthis interview.
(00:20):
Brandon has run and operatedSEO Optimizers since 2007.
SEO Optimizers since 2007.
They're a digital marketingThey're a digital marketing
company that focuses on helpingcompany that focuses on helping
small and medium sizedsmall and medium sized
businesses get morebusinesses get more
online traffic, online traffic,which turns into clients,
which turns into clients,sales leads, sales leads,
and who doesn't needand who doesn't need
more of that? Guys,more of that? Guys,
Brandon is an awesome guy andBrandon is an awesome guy and
(00:41):
I'm stoked to havehim on the show.
I'm stoked to haveLet's cue the intro and
him on the show.
Let's cue the intro andwe'll jump right in.
we'll jump right in.
Listen,there's a lot to learn when
Listen,there's a lot to learn when
growing and scalinggrowing and scaling
your business.
That's why we created theyour business.
That's why we created theBusiness Choreography Podcast
Business Choreography Podcastwhere we talk about
choreographing your marketingwhere we talk about
choreographing your marketingoperations and sales into
operations and sales intodynamic systems that increase
dynamic systems that increaseyour revenue and your impact.
your revenue and your impact.
We'll explore solid businessWe'll explore solid business
principles and discuss allprinciples and discuss all
things that make businessesthings that make businesses
(01:02):
dance to success with clarity.
dance to success with clarity.
We'll help you figure out whereWe'll help you figure out where
the holes are in your businessand what you can do to fix them.
the holes are in your businessand what you can do to fix them.
Think of us as your officialThink of us as your official
business choreographers,business choreographers,
AKA your insider growthAKA your insider growth
strategists.
Remember, strategists.
your choreography matters.
Remember,your choreography matters.
Welcome to the BusinessWelcome to the Business
Choreography Podcast.
Choreography Podcast.
(01:22):
Brandon,thank you so much for joining us
Brandon,thank you so much for joining us
today. I'm excited to have you.
today. I'm excited to have you.
It's fun to have you on theIt's fun to have you on the
show. Thanks for being here.
show. Thanks for being here.
Thank you for havingThank you for having
me on today.
Absolutely.
me on today.
Absolutely.
I am excited to introduceI am excited to introduce
you to our audience.
I want to start by making sureyou to our audience.
I want to start by making surethey know how cool of a guy you
they know how cool of a guy youare. So here's my question.
(01:42):
are. So here's my question.
How the heck did you get startedHow the heck did you get started
into SEO? I mean,into SEO? I mean,
what led you down the path to bewhat led you down the path to be
here today running this coolhere today running this cool
company and doing all thecompany and doing all the
stuff you're doing?
stuff you're doing?
I just kind of fell into it.
I just kind of fell into it.
Wasn't planning on it,Wasn't planning on it,
but I got my first jobbut I got my first job
out of school.
I got my degree in businessout of school.
I got my degree in businessmarketing and I was helping a
marketing and I was helping acompany doing their
(02:03):
digital marketing.
company doing theirAnd I didn't know much about
digital marketing.
And I didn't know much aboutdigital marketing.
They didn't know much about itdigital marketing.
They didn't know much about iteither. This is in 2007.
either. This is in 2007.
They said, don't worry,we're gonna take the classes and
They said, don't worry,we're gonna take the classes and
workshops and learn alongsideworkshops and learn alongside
with you.
And after working therewith you.
And after working therefor a few months,
just realized that everyone'sfor a few months,
just realized that everyone'sprobably gonna have a website in
probably gonna have a website inthe future and there's a lot of
the future and there's a lot ofdifferent ways to get traffic.
different ways to get traffic.
And what I was doing with themAnd what I was doing with them
was helping out with their SEO.
(02:24):
was helping out with their SEO.
I was Helping out with socialI was Helping out with social
media. I was doing paid ads,media. I was doing paid ads,
I was doing email marketing,I was doing email marketing,
kind of doing it all for them,kind of doing it all for them,
and just realized thatand just realized that
everything works to get traffic.
everything works to get traffic.
But SEO is just a wayBut SEO is just a way
to get free traffic.
to get free traffic.
And why spend money on paid adsAnd why spend money on paid ads
when you could get upthere for free?
when you could get upAnd that's what I focused
there for free?
And that's what I focusedon over the years,
working at different advertisingon over the years,
working at different advertisingagencies as a director of SEO.
(02:44):
agencies as a director of SEO.
And before work or after work,And before work or after work,
on my lunch breaks,on my lunch breaks,
I work on my own company andI work on my own company and
built that up to where I wasbuilt that up to where I was
able to quit my job andable to quit my job and
focus solely on this.
And ever since been doing that,focus solely on this.
And ever since been doing that,just helping people get more
just helping people get moretraffic to their websites.
traffic to their websites.
That's amazing. And it's just,That's amazing. And it's just,
it's so typical of anit's so typical of an
entrepreneur, you know, like,entrepreneur, you know, like,
yeah, we started off working foryeah, we started off working for
(03:05):
somebody else and realized theresomebody else and realized there
was a need and sort of endedwas a need and sort of ended
up in it. You know,up in it. You know,
building a businessbuilding a business
is challenging, is challenging,but when you have some
but when you have somecool insider tools,
cool insider tools,that's even better.
that's even better.
Now I want to kind of dig intoNow I want to kind of dig into
SEO because for the extentSEO because for the extent
of the Internet,people I feel like have been
of the Internet,people I feel like have been
(03:26):
talking about SEO from the verytalking about SEO from the very
start. Now I was around when it,start. Now I was around when it,
when there wasn't Internet andwhen there wasn't Internet and
it was just getting going.
it was just getting going.
And I,I remember back in that time it
And I,I remember back in that time it
already started popping up andalready started popping up and
being something that was talkedbeing something that was talked
about as being necessary.
about as being necessary.
So give me a kind of a littleSo give me a kind of a little
bit of history on SEO and howbit of history on SEO and how
it's developed and changed fromit's developed and changed from
(03:47):
when the Internetstarted to now.
when the Internetstarted to now.
SEO has been around for over 20SEO has been around for over 20
years. I got involved in 2007,years. I got involved in 2007,
so I wasn't there atso I wasn't there at
the beginning.
But basically Google is justthe beginning.
But basically Google is justtrying to find websites that are
trying to find websites that arerelated to them or relevant to
related to them or relevant towhatever someone's searching by
whatever someone's searching bylooking at what are
called backlinks.
looking at what areBy looking what at other
called backlinks.
(04:07):
By looking what at otherwebsites that talk about you.
websites that talk about you.
So if you're reading so GoogleSo if you're reading so Google
whole algorithm,the way they became popular is
whole algorithm,the way they became popular is
by ranking websites basedby ranking websites based
off those backlinks.
And the backlink is a clickableoff those backlinks.
And the backlink is a clickablelink from another website
link from another websitethat points to yours.
that points to yours.
So if you're on like theSo if you're on like the
newyorktimes.com and readingnewyorktimes.com and reading
a blog post or an article,a blog post or an article,
and in there it saysBrandon Liebolitz,
(04:28):
and in there it saysand you click on it that and
Brandon Liebolitz,and you click on it that and
it goes to my website,then I'd be getting a backlink
it goes to my website,then I'd be getting a backlink
from the newyorktimes.com andfrom the newyorktimes.com and
that is how Google reallythat is how Google really
started ranking websites.
It's like a popularity contest.
started ranking websites.
It's like a popularity contest.
The more backlinks you get,The more backlinks you get,
the higher Google'sthe higher Google's
going to rank you.
And that's kind of how Googlegoing to rank you.
And that's kind of how Googlestarted. And still to this day,
started. And still to this day,it's primarily based off
it's primarily based offbacklinks through algorithm
(04:49):
backlinks through algorithmand how it ranks websites.
and how it ranks websites.
It's changed a lot over theIt's changed a lot over the
years and how they lookyears and how they look
at those backlinks.
But that's really kind ofat those backlinks.
But that's really kind ofhow SEO kind of started.
how SEO kind of started.
And it's what it's at today.
And it's what it's at today.
Crazy.
I remember a lot of marketersCrazy.
I remember a lot of marketersand a lot of people talking
and a lot of people talkingabout the backlinks concept of
about the backlinks concept ofSEO and people would build
SEO and people would buildlike blogs and, like blogs and,
(05:11):
and do all this stuff and justand do all this stuff and just
start like it almost was likestart like it almost was like
spamming backlinks.
spamming backlinks.
Some stuff has changedSome stuff has changed
since then. What,what is it that's the main
since then. What,what is it that's the main
difference that's changed aboutdifference that's changed about
using backlinks from when itusing backlinks from when it
originally started that way?
originally started that way?
Well the backlinks originallyWell the backlinks originally
started as a popularity contest.
started as a popularity contest.
The more backlinks,the higher you'd rank.
The more backlinks,the higher you'd rank.
(05:32):
Now it's not the numberof backlinks,
Now it's not the numberbut the number of quality
of backlinks,but the number of quality
backlinks.
So what's a quality backlink?
backlinks.
So what's a quality backlink?
Right.
Quality backlink means it's aRight.
Quality backlink means it's awebsite that's related to you.
website that's related to you.
That's the biggest thing.
That's the biggest thing.
So if you're a doctor and you'reSo if you're a doctor and you're
getting a backlink fromgetting a backlink from
a restaurant, a restaurant,that looks a little strange,
like why is the restaurantthat looks a little strange,
linking up to the doctor?
like why is the restaurantlinking up to the doctor?
But if you're a doctor andBut if you're a doctor and
(05:53):
you're getting a backlink fromyou're getting a backlink from
a health related website,a health related website,
that makes more sense to Google.
that makes more sense to Google.
So all about relevancySo all about relevancy
with the backlinks,the more related to
with the backlinks,the more related to
you the topic is,you the topic is,
the better off it's going to be.
the better off it's going to be.
Then authoritativeness.
Then authoritativeness.
How popular is this website?
How popular is this website?
If you're getting a backlinkIf you're getting a backlink
from my website,it's a good backlink,
from my website,it's a good backlink,
but it's not the same tier asbut it's not the same tier as
like the New York Timesor LA Times or Forbes.
like the New York Timesor LA Times or Forbes.
(06:15):
So the bigger the website,So the bigger the website,
the more trust and SEO valuethe more trust and SEO value
you're going to get.
So relevancy andyou're going to get.
So relevancy andauthoritativeness,
authoritativeness,those are the two
those are the twobigger aspects.
But relevancy is number one.
bigger aspects.
But relevancy is number one.
That's the most important.
That's the most important.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
So is it that people have toSo is it that people have to
click on one of the backlinks orclick on one of the backlinks or
is it just that it's there andis it just that it's there and
Google sees that it's connected?
(06:35):
Google sees that it's connected?
It doesn't have to get clicks,It doesn't have to get clicks,
but it'd be great if it did.
but it'd be great if it did.
Right?
As long as Google just sees it,Right?
As long as Google just sees it,that's number one.
that's number one.
But getting clicks is ultimatelyBut getting clicks is ultimately
the goal. But for SEO,the goal. But for SEO,
we just really want Googlewe just really want Google
to see that backlink.
to see that backlink.
So when would you say, I mean,So when would you say, I mean,
we're talking to a lot ofwe're talking to a lot of
(06:56):
business owners and a lotbusiness owners and a lot
of entrepreneurs.
of entrepreneurs.
When is the worst time to startWhen is the worst time to start
adding SEO marketing effortsadding SEO marketing efforts
to your overall system?
to your overall system?
And when is the bestAnd when is the best
time to do it.
time to do it.
I would say there's no real badI would say there's no real bad
time to do it because if youtime to do it because if you
don't have a website launched,don't have a website launched,
you,you could still start building
(07:16):
you,you could still start building
some backlinks or still justsome backlinks or still just
get that URL aged.
get that URL aged.
Because Google looks at so manyBecause Google looks at so many
variables that the soonervariables that the sooner
you start doing SEO,the sooner you're gonna
you start doing SEO,get those rankings.
the sooner you're gonnaBecause it takes around six
get those rankings.
Because it takes around sixmonths or more to get
months or more to getGoogle to trust you.
So the sooner you start buildingGoogle to trust you.
So the sooner you start buildingthat trust up,
the sooner you're gonnathat trust up,
get those rankings.
the sooner you're gonnaSo I wouldn't say hold
get those rankings.
So I wouldn't say holdoff on it. Like,
(07:37):
even if you don'toff on it. Like, have a website,
even if you don'tbuy a domain name and just sit
have a website,buy a domain name and just sit
on it and have it likeon it and have it like
a coming soon page.
a coming soon page.
Because Google sees that URL isBecause Google sees that URL is
now not just a day old when younow not just a day old when you
launch a website, or a week old,launch a website, or a week old,
it might be two years old.
it might be two years old.
And the older the URL,And the older the URL,
the more authoritativeness andthe more authoritativeness and
trust that that URL getstrust that that URL gets
slightly, a little bit more.
slightly, a little bit more.
Gets a little bit of a boost.
(07:57):
Gets a little bit of a boost.
For those of us that are aFor those of us that are a
little bit more lame about thelittle bit more lame about the
concept of SEO and backlinks.
concept of SEO and backlinks.
You said building backlinks.
You said building backlinks.
What the heck does that mean?
What the heck does that mean?
Building backlinks or justBuilding backlinks or just
getting other websitesgetting other websites
to link out to you?
So there's a lot of differentto link out to you?
So there's a lot of differentways to build backlinks.
I would just spy on yourways to build backlinks.
I would just spy on yourcompetitors just using,
competitors just using,because if they're on the
(08:17):
because if they're on thefirst page of Google,
first page of Google,they're doing something right.
they're doing something right.
And these are different toolsAnd these are different tools
like Ahref or Moz or Semrush.
like Ahref or Moz or Semrush.
You have to pay for these tools,You have to pay for these tools,
but they'll show you anybut they'll show you any
backlink or any website'sbacklink or any website's
backlinks,and you can throw all your
backlinks,and you can throw all your
competitors in there and one bycompetitors in there and one by
one look at who's linking out toone look at who's linking out to
them and start reachingout to those sites.
them and start reachingBecause if they're linking
out to those sites.
Because if they're linkingout to your competitors,
(08:37):
out to your competitors,they would probably
link out to you.
they would probablyYou just got to get creative and
link out to you.
You just got to get creative andfigure out how do I get them to
figure out how do I get them tolink back to me instead of just
link back to me instead of justlinking to my competitor?
linking to my competitor?
Brian,is it a typical reach out?
Brian,is it a typical reach out?
Like you would network withLike you would network with
somebody at an event? Like,somebody at an event? Like,
do you reach out to somebodydo you reach out to somebody
specific that's in chargespecific that's in charge
of that, at that,at that company and go, hey,
of that, at that,at that company and go, hey,
would you do this?
(08:58):
would you do this?
Or is there some sort ofOr is there some sort of
exchange? How does that work?
exchange? How does that work?
All the above and tonsAll the above and tons
of other ways.
It's not just one size fits all,of other ways.
It's not just one size fits all,it's just whatever needs to be
it's just whatever needs to bedone to get that backlink.
done to get that backlink.
Sometimes they'll ask youSometimes they'll ask you
to sponsor an event,to sponsor an event,
so you might have to talk to theso you might have to talk to the
person that is in chargeperson that is in charge
of that event.
Or maybe it's A blog post.
of that event.
Or maybe it's A blog post.
(09:18):
So you want to figure outwho's that blogger.
So you want to figure outwho's that blogger.
Or maybe you're exchangingOr maybe you're exchanging
something where you're givingthem a free blog post and
something where you're givingthem a free blog post and
they're going to give youthey're going to give you
something in return.
something in return.
But it's all about just gettingBut it's all about just getting
creative and trying to figureout what the competitors have
creative and trying to figuredone and how to do a
out what the competitors havedone and how to do a
better job of it,of building those backlinks.
better job of it,of building those backlinks.
Wow, that's, that's crazy. I,Wow, that's, that's crazy. I, I
Ithink a lot of people out there
(09:39):
think a lot of people out therewould probably not know that
would probably not know thatit was that involved.
And so it's amazing to have ait was that involved.
And so it's amazing to have aconnection to somebody like you
connection to somebody like youwho understands all of that.
who understands all of that.
Is,is SEO best for websites or can
Is,is SEO best for websites or can
it be utilized for like,it be utilized for like,
funnels specifically or forfunnels specifically or for
like blogs or podcasts?
like blogs or podcasts?
(09:59):
Where is it?
Where is it best used?
Where is it?
Where is it best used?
So SEO is search engineSo SEO is search engine
optimization,and it's best to use wherever
optimization,and it's best to use wherever
there's a search engine. So,there's a search engine. So,
okay, you're on Facebook,okay, you're on Facebook,
you could search on Facebook.
you could search on Facebook.
If you're on Yelp,you could search on Yelp.
If you're on Yelp,you could search on Yelp.
If you're on Spotify or AmazonIf you're on Spotify or Amazon
or anywhere where thesearch feature,
or anywhere where theessentially there's ways to
search feature,essentially there's ways to
optimize your content to tryoptimize your content to try
(10:21):
to rank higher organically.
to rank higher organically.
So it's not just S GoogleSo it's not just S Google
or Bing or Yahoo,or Bing or Yahoo,
but anything that essentiallybut anything that essentially
has a search.
There's ways to kind of optimizehas a search.
There's ways to kind of optimizeyour website to get the,
your website to get the,get the more trust and
get the more trust andget higher rankings.
get higher rankings.
I see. So even, I see. So even,even places like Facebook,
even places like Facebook,you're doing search engine
you're doing search engineoptimization inside of there for
(10:42):
optimization inside of there foryour website specifically.
your website specifically.
Or for.
Or for.
To make sure that your FacebookTo make sure that your Facebook
page ranks higher.
page ranks higher.
So I see Search engineSo I see Search engine
optimization would be like,optimization would be like,
if you're an Amazon store,if you're an Amazon store,
we're doing it on your Amazonwe're doing it on your Amazon
store. Okay. If you're on Yelp,store. Okay. If you're on Yelp,
we're going to rank you higheron Yelp by optimizing
we're going to rank you higheron Yelp by optimizing
your Yelp listing.
If you're on Google Maps,your Yelp listing.
If you're on Google Maps,we're going to try to rank you
higher on Google Maps,we're going to try to rank you
(11:03):
higher on Google Maps,but it's not going to really
affect your website SEO. I mean,but it's not going to really
affect your website SEO. I mean,it might help out a little bit,
but sure, it's.
it might help out a little bit,but sure, it's.
Sure.
Not really.
It's really working on whateverSure.
Not really.
It's really working on whateverplatform you're on.
platform you're on.
So Google ranks websites.
So Google ranks websites.
That's where we want tooptimize your website.
That's where we want tooptimize your website.
Amazon is going to rank yourAmazon is going to rank your
product or your store.
product or your store.
So you want to optimize thatSo you want to optimize that
content on Amazon.
content on Amazon.
Right.
So how does that work for Right.
(11:23):
So how does that work forlike a Facebook group?
like a Facebook group?
Can you do optimization for aCan you do optimization for a
Facebook group the same as youFacebook group the same as you
would for a page on Facebook?
would for a page on Facebook?
Yeah, I mean, Yeah, I mean,it's all about like the title of
it's all about like the title ofthe group and make sure you have
the group and make sure you havegood titles with keyword
good titles with keywordthat make sense,
that help people findthat make sense, that group.
that help people findMaking sure that when you post
that group.
Making sure that when you postin there that you do or you
in there that you do or youpost keyword rich content,
(11:45):
post keyword rich content,make sure your status updates
make sure your status updateshave keywords in it.
have keywords in it.
You use hashtags that areYou use hashtags that are
relevant to try to drawrelevant to try to draw
new eyeballs in.
new eyeballs in.
And you can name your imagesAnd you can name your images
with keywords before you uploadwith keywords before you upload
them to the platforms.
them to the platforms.
You can name your files,You can name your files,
your podcasts, your videos,your podcasts, your videos,
all that stuff with keyword richall that stuff with keyword rich
file names before you uploadfile names before you upload
them to social media to helpthem to social media to help
(12:06):
them better understand what thatthem better understand what that
image or video orimage or video or
audio is about.
audio is about.
Right.
That seems sort of like Right.
That seems sort of likenext level thought.
next level thought.
I know a lot of businessowners that,
I know a lot of businessthat I've talked to in the past.
owners that,that I've talked to in the past.
Sometimes it's like, you know,Sometimes it's like, you know,
mvp, like just minimum viablemvp, like just minimum viable
product. Let's get it out there.
product. Let's get it out there.
They're not thinking aboutThey're not thinking about
doing all of that stuff.
(12:26):
doing all of that stuff.
So how challenging is it to getSo how challenging is it to get
that switch to happenthat switch to happen
for entrepreneurs?
Is it just that they finallyfor entrepreneurs?
Is it just that they finallyrealize that maybe they've put a
realize that maybe they've put awhole bunch of stuff out there
whole bunch of stuff out therethat isn't actually working and,
that isn't actually working and,and and you have to just kind of
and and you have to just kind oflike bonk them over the
head and go, hey, we,like bonk them over the
head and go, hey, we,we got to fix all that stuff so
we got to fix all that stuff sothat you can get some attention.
that you can get some attention.
Like, have you had an experienceLike, have you had an experience
(12:46):
with that?
Or do most people that come towith that?
Or do most people that come toyou have they already kind of
you have they already kind offigured out that, that,
figured out that, that,holy cow, I've been missing out
holy cow, on all this already?
I've been missing outon all this already?
Yeah,probably a little bit of both.
Yeah,probably a little bit of both.
But the best is justBut the best is just
telling like, hey,you're spending all this time
telling like, hey,you're spending all this time
and energy making an image orand energy making an image or
a video or a blog post or aa video or a blog post or a
podcast takes a lot of time andpodcast takes a lot of time and
(13:07):
it only takes a few seconds justit only takes a few seconds just
to rename the file name withto rename the file name with
some descriptive words.
some descriptive words.
So stuff like thatSo stuff like that
where it's like,they don't think it's important.
where it's like,But if you're spending all this
they don't think it's important.
But if you're spending all thistime creating the content,
time creating the content,might as well spend the time
might as well spend the timemarketing it properly because
marketing it properly becauseit's not easy to create that
it's not easy to create thatcontent. It takes a lot of time,
content. It takes a lot of time,research, effort,
research, effort,and little changes to optimize
and little changes to optimizeit just to maximize that
it just to maximize thatvisibility are going to be worth
(13:28):
visibility are going to be worthit in the long term.
But sometimes it's lettingit in the long term.
But sometimes it's lettingthem know, like, hey,
it's not working because you'rethem know, like, hey,
it's not working because you'renot doing this or.
Right.
not doing this or.
Some people are just like, hey,Right.
Some people are just like, hey,it's not working.
I'm ready to do whateverit's not working.
needs to be done.
I'm ready to do whateverLet me know how to do this.
needs to be done.
Let me know how to do this.
In that light, In that light,what do you think are the number
what do you think are the numberone mistakes that you see when
one mistakes that you see whenyou're working with your clients
you're working with your clientsthat they've done prior to doing
that they've done prior to doingSEO and using your services?
(13:48):
SEO and using your services?
Let's say backlinks are so veryLet's say backlinks are so very
important and either they're notimportant and either they're not
building any backlinks or theybuilding any backlinks or they
don't know what backlinks are.
don't know what backlinks are.
They don't know that they'reimportant or building the
They don't know that they'reimportant or building the
wrong type of backlinks.
wrong type of backlinks.
Where in the past it was justWhere in the past it was just
the more backlinks you had,the better.
the more backlinks you had,Like you were saying earlier,
the better.
like just creating a blog orLike you were saying earlier,
like just creating a blog orcreating a backlink to create a
creating a backlink to create abacklink was good in the past.
(14:09):
backlink was good in the past.
Now it's all about relevancy andNow it's all about relevancy and
authoritativeness and makingauthoritativeness and making
sure that you get goodsure that you get good
quality backlinks,quality backlinks,
not just random sites.
not just random sites.
And that's the part where I seeAnd that's the part where I see
a lot of people have either noa lot of people have either no
backlinks or the wrongtype of backlinks.
backlinks or the wrongAnd that's going to actually
type of backlinks.
do more harm than good.
And that's going to actuallydo more harm than good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Getting in and working withGetting in and working with
an expert like yourself on SEO,an expert like yourself on SEO,
(14:31):
if somebody's never done any ofif somebody's never done any of
that stuff and they've neverthat stuff and they've never
built in that mindset,built in that mindset,
how long does it take to starthow long does it take to start
seeing results from theseeing results from the
efforts of SEO?
efforts of SEO?
Because it seems as though SEOBecause it seems as though SEO
in the way that we're talkingin the way that we're talking
about it is a bit more of a longabout it is a bit more of a long
term play and it seems as thoughterm play and it seems as though
it might take a bit of time.
(14:51):
it might take a bit of time.
But what,what is your experience
But what, in terms of,what is your experience
of turnaround time for seeingin terms of,
of turnaround time for seeingsomething come back from the
something come back from theefforts you're putting in?
efforts you're putting in?
Yeah,no SEO is definitely more long
Yeah,no SEO is definitely more long
term because it takes timeterm because it takes time
for Google to trust you.
Google just doesn't trust anyfor Google to trust you.
Google just doesn't trust anywebsite and you have to build
website and you have to buildthat trust up over time.
that trust up over time.
And some websites will rankAnd some websites will rank
faster than others,but it really comes down to the
(15:12):
faster than others,but it really comes down to the
competitiveness ofthose keywords.
competitiveness ofthose keywords.
More competition.
More competition.
The more time it's going toThe more time it's going to
take to get up there,the less competition,
take to get up there,the less that needs to be done
the less competition,the less that needs to be done
to optimize your websiteto optimize your website
to get you up there.
to get you up there.
So if you're a brandnew website,
So if you're a brandyou're just pretty much
new website,you're just pretty much
starting from scratch.
But if you've been around forstarting from scratch.
But if you've been around forlike five or ten years, you,
like five or ten years, you,you build up a lot of
trust and authority.
you build up a lot ofIt's going to be a little bit
trust and authority.
quicker to get those rankings,It's going to be a little bit
(15:32):
quicker to get those rankings,but every website is going to be
but every website is going to beslightly different depending on
slightly different depending onjust the history of it and the
just the history of it and thecompetitors of those keywords.
competitors of those keywords.
How does the, How does the,the length of history that we
the length of history that wehave say, I had a website,
have say, I had a website,maybe I'm a brick and mortar
maybe I'm a brick and mortarcompany, I've had a website for,
company, I've had a website for,you know,
maybe Five or six years,you know,
(15:52):
maybe Five or six years,but I've never done any SEO
but I've never done any SEOor backlinks or on it.
or backlinks or on it.
Do I have some type ofDo I have some type of
reputation already with Googlereputation already with Google
and then SEO just goingand then SEO just going
to supercharge it,or is it just like you're
to supercharge it,or is it just like you're
starting from scratch evenstarting from scratch even
though the website'sbeen in existence?
though the website'sbeen in existence?
No, if the website's been No,if the website's been
in existence,then you're not starting
in existence, from scratch.
then you're not startingSo as long as you haven't been
from scratch.
So as long as you haven't beendoing any bad malicious things,
doing any bad malicious things,but other than that,
(16:14):
but other than that,you've been aging it.
you've been aging it.
Even though you haven't doneanything for SEO, you're still,
Even though you haven't doneanything for SEO, you're still,
that domain is aging and that'sthat domain is aging and that's
building up trust with Google.
building up trust with Google.
Yeah, Yeah,I've heard one of the concerns
I've heard one of the concernswith SEO and keywords and trying
with SEO and keywords and tryingto get that implemented into
to get that implemented intoyour site is that things tend to
your site is that things tend toget very repetitive utilizing
(16:35):
get very repetitive utilizingand trying to stay on top of
and trying to stay on top ofwhat keywords are ranking
what keywords are rankingbecause you're trying to use
because you're trying to usethose over and over again.
those over and over again.
How do you get around that orHow do you get around that or
how do you deal with thatso that, that your,
how do you deal with thatso that, that your,
your pages don't look ridiculousyour pages don't look ridiculous
by saying the same keywords overby saying the same keywords over
and over again trying toget that attention?
and over again trying toget that attention?
I think that's more of an oldI think that's more of an old
(16:56):
strategy where you're justputting keywords in the content.
strategy where you're justputting keywords in the content.
Sure.
You just gotta write Sure.
content for people,You just gotta write
not for Google or searchcontent for people,
not for Google or searchengines, but right for people.
engines, but right for people.
And naturally those keywordsAnd naturally those keywords
will emerge.
And if they don't emerge,will emerge.
And if they don't emerge,then you're probably not writing
then you're probably not writingthe right content about
the right content aboutthe right topic.
But I wouldn't just throwthe right topic.
But I wouldn't just throwkeywords in there to throw
them in there.
keywords in there to throwThat's a whole strategy
them in there.
That's a whole strategythat can.
Google changes every single day.
that can.
Google changes every single day.
So what works in the pastSo what works in the past
(17:17):
doesn't necessarily workin the future.
doesn't necessarily workAnd that stuff is very spammy.
in the future.
And that stuff is very spammy.
And anything that seems spammy,And anything that seems spammy,
I'd probably avoid it.
I'd probably avoid it.
So can really just focusSo can really just focus
on the user.
That's the biggest thingon the user.
nowadays is making sureThat's the biggest thing
nowadays is making sureeverything comes back to the
everything comes back to theuser having a good experience.
user having a good experience.
Not optimizing for theNot optimizing for the
search engines,but optimizing for people
search engines,but optimizing for people
essentially,and the search engines,
essentially,and the search engines,
but more for people.
(17:38):
but more for people.
Right.
It seems as though the AI thatRight.
It seems as though the AI thatthe search engines are using are
the search engines are using aretrying to emulate as best they
trying to emulate as best theycan what a great experience
can what a great experiencewould be.
And so it would seem that thewould be.
And so it would seem that themore we move forward,
more we move forward,the more that's going to be
the more that's going to beimportant is just to continue to
important is just to continue togive them as much value as you
give them as much value as youcan and optimize for a human
(17:59):
can and optimize for a humanbecause it seems as though
because it seems as thoughthey're trying to make
they're trying to maketheir AI and their,
their AI and their,their optimization act more like
their optimization act more likea human would. Is that,
a human would. Is that,is that an accurate assessment?
is that an accurate assessment?
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, definitely.
Everything needs to be human.
Everything needs to be human.
First AI bot, all that stuff.
First AI bot, all that stuff.
Secondary focus on people makingSecondary focus on people making
sure it's a good userexperience, it makes sense,
sure it's a good userexperience, it makes sense,
(18:21):
it's readable, it's readable,it doesn't have just gibberish
it doesn't have just gibberishor keywords in there just
or keywords in there justto throw them in there.
But it actually all offersto throw them in there.
But it actually all offersbenefits to the user,
benefits to the user,to the reader, to the viewer,
to the reader, to the viewer,or whatever type of piece of
or whatever type of piece ofcontent you're putting
out there,but just has to offer value
content you're puttingout there,
but just has to offer valueand be for people.
and be for people.
Right.
Right.
With so many different ways toWith so many different ways to
optimize a business's content.
(18:41):
optimize a business's content.
Right. You got a website,Right. You got a website,
you have funnels,you have your content strategy,
you have funnels,you have your content strategy,
whether it be on YouTube orwhether it be on YouTube or
Facebook or groups or whateverFacebook or groups or whatever
it is, Instagram,all the social media.
it is, Instagram,all the social media.
How do you even begin toHow do you even begin to
determine for one of yourdetermine for one of your
clients where to start? Like,clients where to start? Like,
what's the first thing you dowhat's the first thing you do
with all of those differentwith all of those different
(19:01):
pieces of content and thingspieces of content and things
that we're producing?
that we're producing?
How do you even get goingHow do you even get going
on what to do?
on what to do?
You just got to take a step backYou just got to take a step back
and put yourself in theand put yourself in the
user's point of view.
If you're looking for thatuser's point of view.
If you're looking for thatproduct or service,
what would you,product or service,
what would you,where would he be,
what platforms would he be on?
where would he be,what platforms would he be on?
What keywords would you beWhat keywords would you be
using? Would he be on Google,using? Would he be on Google,
Would you be on Instagram,Would you be on Instagram,
would he be on Yelp?
(19:22):
would he be on Yelp?
Where would you be?
And it's really just tryingWhere would you be?
And it's really just tryingto take a step back,
which it's tough forto take a step back,
business owners,which it's tough for
but gotta really understand whobusiness owners,
but gotta really understand whoyour audience is and
your audience is andwhere are they.
You don't have to be everywhere,where are they.
You don't have to be everywhere,you just need to be where
your audience is.
you just need to be whereThat's gonna help save you a
your audience is.
That's gonna help save you alot of time and headaches.
lot of time and headaches.
Sure.
And I imagine that that's oneSure.
And I imagine that that's onearea being that you guys are
area being that you guys aresuch a long running successful
(19:44):
such a long running successfulcompany that you guys exc.
company that you guys exc.
As you help entrepreneurs andAs you help entrepreneurs and
owners get in and going, you,owners get in and going, you,
you guys are probably reallyyou guys are probably really
great at helping that.
great at helping that.
So So what, what,what should somebody expect?
what should somebody expect?
Like, okay, Like, okay,somebody out here is listening.
somebody out here is listening.
One of our listeners goes, okay,One of our listeners goes, okay,
I like this Brandon guy,I like this Brandon guy,
(20:05):
sounds pretty cool.
sounds pretty cool.
He knows what he's doing.
He knows what he's doing.
What should they expect as theyWhat should they expect as they
start to come in to work withstart to come in to work with
you? How does the process go?
you? How does the process go?
And how,how should they expect getting
And how,how should they expect getting
started to look and feel like,started to look and feel like,
well.
Every website is going well.
Every website is goingto be different,
so it's not really ato be different,
so it's not really aone size fits all,
but always starts off withone size fits all,
but always starts off withthe website analysis,
the website analysis,trying to figure out what needs
trying to figure out what needsto be done and what the
(20:26):
to be done and what thedisconnect is from their website
disconnect is from their websiteversus their competitors and how
versus their competitors and howto get them to the level that
to get them to the level thatthey want to be at.
So got to do that researchthey want to be at.
So got to do that researchinitially, initially,
analyzing their website andanalyzing their website and
analyzing the competitors justanalyzing the competitors just
Trying to figure out what theTrying to figure out what the
competition's done and what thecompetition's done and what the
client has done and how to getclient has done and how to get
those levels to be equal or getthose levels to be equal or get
(20:46):
them higher for their client.
them higher for their client.
Sure.
Sure.
How do you deal with you know,How do you deal with you know,
like if,let's say they don't have
like if,let's say they don't have
a website presence,but they have you know,
a website presence,but they have you know,
five or six different funnelsfive or six different funnels
that are producing income and,that are producing income and,
and working for them. How does,and working for them. How does,
how do backlinks work on ahow do backlinks work on a
funnel and, and doing that,funnel and, and doing that,
Is it the same thing or is itIs it the same thing or is it
just that you handle itcompletely different?
(21:07):
just that you handle itcompletely different?
What would a funnel be exactly?
What would a funnel be exactly?
Well,just like a specific sales page
Well,just like a specific sales page
that went into like an upsellthat went into like an upsell
and then maybe another upsell.
and then maybe another upsell.
But it wasn't necessarilyBut it wasn't necessarily
designed for website per se.
designed for website per se.
But it's still on a website.
But it's still on a website.
Sure.
Then, yeah, you can optimize it.
Sure.
Then, yeah, you can optimize it.
But if it's not on a website,But if it's not on a website,
(21:27):
then there's nothing youthen there's nothing you
could do for SEO.
But if it's on the website,could do for SEO.
then you do all the stuff thatBut if it's on the website,
then you do all the stuff thatwe were talking about going in,
we were talking about going in,putting the keywords in the
content, building backlinks,putting the keywords in the
content, building backlinks,optimizing your images, videos,
optimizing your images, videos,all that stuff.
But if it's not on a website,all that stuff.
But if it's not on a website,then you can't do it.
But if it's on a website,then you can't do it.
But if it's on a website,a landing page is still a
a landing page is still awebsite. It's not any different.
website. It's not any different.
Right, right.
Right, right.
As long as there's a URL,As long as there's a URL,
(21:47):
it's a page on the Internet.
it's a page on the Internet.
So as long as the URL that couldSo as long as the URL that could
be ranked and as long asbe ranked and as long as
you have control of it.
But if you're on likeyou have control of it.
click funnels,But if you're on like
then you can't reallyclick funnels,
optimize that much.
then you can't reallyBut if you build your own
optimize that much.
But if you build your owninternal funnel on
internal funnel onyour own website,
which is a better way to do it,your own website,
which is a better way to do it,that way you don't have to pay
the fees and all thatthat way you don't have to pay
extra stuff,the fees and all that
because you could build all thatextra stuff,
because you could build all thatstuff for pennies on the dollar
stuff for pennies on the dollarthat they're selling it for and
that they're selling it for andget way more functionality and
get way more functionality andfeatures that will help you out
(22:08):
features that will help you outway more and have full control
way more and have full controlover everything instead of just
over everything instead of justrenting space off in
another platform.
renting space off inanother platform.
I see. That's, I see. That's,that's pretty cool.
And I think a lot of peoplethat's pretty cool.
And I think a lot of peoplemaybe don't know that and don't
maybe don't know that and don'tknow and don't realize
know and don't realizethat they're, like you said,
that they're,renting space off of another
like you said,renting space off of another
platform and therefore they haveplatform and therefore they have
less functionality, maybe,less functionality, maybe,
maybe less ability to domaybe less ability to do
(22:30):
some of that stuff.
some of that stuff.
What what are some of yourWhat what are some of your
favorite platforms tofavorite platforms to
to build on and,to build on and,
or to have maybe a website builtor to have maybe a website built
that can be fully optimized?
that can be fully optimized?
I'd say WordPress is the best.
I'd say WordPress is the best.
But if you're not tech savvy,But if you're not tech savvy,
then you can do Shopifyfor E Commerce.
then you can do ShopifyBut I try to avoid Wix
for E Commerce.
But I try to avoid Wixor Squarespace.
They're not the best.
or Squarespace.
But WordPress stuff doThey're not the best.
(22:51):
But WordPress stuff doeverything any platform
everything any platformcould do for free.
could do for free.
Right, right.
Right, right.
And you said clickfunnels wasAnd you said clickfunnels was
a little rough to do it in.
a little rough to do it in.
Do you find that to be the sameDo you find that to be the same
with most funnel builder type?
with most funnel builder type?
No,they're not rough to work with,
No,but you just build everything
they're not rough to work with,but you just build everything
yourself instead of having toyourself instead of having to
pay ClickFunnels orpay ClickFunnels or
another platform,you could do it all yourself
another platform,you could do it all yourself
(23:11):
for much cheaper.
for much cheaper.
I see, I see. Yeah,I see, I see. Yeah,
that makes a lot of sense.
that makes a lot of sense.
Well, that's cool. I, I,Well, that's cool. I, I,
I feel like the I feel like theI feel like the knowledge
I feel like the knowledgearound SEO is like,
around SEO is like,everybody knows it exists.
everybody knows it exists.
Everybody kind of talks aboutEverybody kind of talks about
it, like, oh, you should do SEO.
it, like, oh, you should do SEO.
(23:32):
And then you go, well,are you doing it?
And then you go, well,And they're like, no,
are you doing it?
And they're like, no,I' so I feel like there's this
I' so I feel like there's thisspace where understanding SEO
space where understanding SEOand feeling comfortable with it
and feeling comfortable with itand then bringing on an expert
and then bringing on an expertsuch as yourself to
such as yourself tohelp with it.
help with it.
As I have been on my journeysAs I have been on my journeys
and talked to lots of differentand talked to lots of different
(23:52):
owners,I feel like there's a fear
owners,I feel like there's a fear
about it. Like, oh, no,about it. Like, oh, no,
I'm worried about it.
I'm worried about it.
I don't understand it.
I don't understand it.
It's confusing to me.
It's confusing to me.
What would you sayWhat would you say
to those owners?
That they're kind of like, yeah,to those owners?
That they're kind of like, yeah,I know I need to do it,
I know I need to do it,but I'm a little worried.
but I'm a little worried.
I'm afraid to do it.
I'm afraid to do it.
I'm afraid to put somebodyI'm afraid to put somebody
in there and,and not understand it well
in there and,and not understand it well
(24:12):
enough to do it myself,enough to do it myself,
you know,because a lot of entrepreneurs
you know,because a lot of entrepreneurs
are like,I've got to learn to do it
are like,I've got to learn to do it
myself before I pass it on.
myself before I pass it on.
Which I highly recommend you getWhich I highly recommend you get
over it. But, you know, like,over it. But, you know, like,
what can you tell them ifwhat can you tell them if
they're worried about gettingthey're worried about getting
started with it,how can you ease the
started with it,how can you ease the
fear a little bit?
fear a little bit?
Yeah,I would just show them how many
Yeah,I would just show them how many
people are searching for theirpeople are searching for their
(24:33):
keywords every single month andkeywords every single month and
tools like the Google Keywordtools like the Google Keyword
Planner, which shows you that,Planner, which shows you that,
and show you what they'reand show you what they're
missing out on and where themissing out on and where the
competitors are getting thattraffic and just try
competitors are getting thattraffic and just try
to show them that.
But if they're fearfulto show them that.
But if they're fearfuland worried, I mean,
there's nothing you really do toand worried, I mean,
there's nothing you really do toalleviate that except for show
alleviate that except for showthem case studies and results.
them case studies and results.
But if they're worried,But if they're worried,
that's more on them tothat's more on them to
(24:54):
get over that fear.
get over that fear.
Yeah, for sure. Well,Yeah, for sure. Well,
it's so important toit's so important to
find your who.
find your who.
So all of you outthere listening,
So all of you outthere are lots of people that
there listening,there are lots of people that
can help and be expertscan help and be experts
at different things.
at different things.
And Brandon is legit.
And Brandon is legit.
He Is your who if youHe Is your who if you
want to do some SEO,want to do some SEO,
he knows what he's doing.
he knows what he's doing.
(25:14):
He knows and has it down.
He knows and has it down.
He's figured it out.
You don't stay in business forHe's figured it out.
You don't stay in business foras many years as they have
as many years as they havewithout having figured it out
without having figured it outand helped your clients in a
and helped your clients in areally great way. So, Brandon,
really great way. So, Brandon,how can our listeners get
how can our listeners getin contact with you?
in contact with you?
How can they come in and startHow can they come in and start
to utilize your expertise and,to utilize your expertise and,
and get their businesses to takeand get their businesses to take
(25:35):
off using all of youroff using all of your
skill set and, skill set and,and well, and
all the things your well,company offers.
all the things yourcompany offers.
So for anyone that wantsSo for anyone that wants
to learn more,I created a special gift
to learn more,I created a special gift
for them on my website.
for them on my website.
If they go to seooptimizers.com,If they go to seooptimizers.com,
that's SEO optimization.
that's SEO optimization.
O P T I I z E-R-S.comO P T I I z E-R-S.com
(25:57):
forward/gift.
forward/gift.
And they can find that thereAnd they can find that there
along with my contactinformation and a bunch of
along with my contactinformation and a bunch of
classes I've done over the yearsclasses I've done over the years
I've thrown up for free.
And also,I've thrown up for free.
if they want to book someAnd also, time on my calendar,
if they want to book sometime on my calendar,
I'm happy to check out theirI'm happy to check out their
website from an SEO point ofwebsite from an SEO point of
view for free and give them someview for free and give them some
feedback about what's workingfeedback about what's working
and what's not working and howand what's not working and how
to get them to that levelto get them to that level
that they want to be at.
that they want to be at.
I love that.
(26:18):
I love that.
That's so kind of you.
That's so kind of you.
I appreciate that and I know ourI appreciate that and I know our
listeners are going to love it.
listeners are going to love it.
Excited for you guys to goExcited for you guys to go
and take advantage of it.
and take advantage of it.
Don't miss out on thisDon't miss out on this
opportunity.
You've gotten to know a littleopportunity.
You've gotten to know a littlebit about Brandon.
bit about Brandon.
And I appreciate you so much forAnd I appreciate you so much for
joining us today and beingjoining us today and being
so forthcoming, so forthcoming,sharing with us some of your
(26:39):
sharing with us some of yourknowledge and expertise
knowledge and expertisealong your journey.
along your journey.
And I know it's going tohelp a lot of people.
And I know it's going toSo thank you so much
help a lot of people.
for being here.
So thank you so muchThanks for joining
for being here.
Thanks for joiningus on the show.
Can't wait to haveus on the show.
you back again.
Can't wait to haveWe'll talk about some more stuff
you back again.
We'll talk about some more stuffand yeah, thanks for being here.
and yeah, thanks for being here.
Thanks for joining us today.
Thanks for joining us today.
Want more business choreography?
Want more business choreography?
(26:59):
Check out ourwebsite@bizchoreo.com
Check out ourwebsite@bizchoreo.com
to find out.
More and find out how theto find out.
More and find out how thechoreography for your marketing,
choreography for your marketing,operations and sales can raise
operations and sales can raiseyour revenue and create
your revenue and createmore impact.
Remember, more impact.
every business needs Remember,every business needs
choreography.
choreography.
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