April 28, 2025 • 23 mins
HBO's adaptation of "The Last of Us" had us all invested in Joel Miller's journey through a fungal apocalypse - until they killed him off in Season 2. Was this faithful adaptation of the video game's storyline a critical misstep that could derail the entire series?
The magic of Season 1 came from how perfectly it translated the game's emotional core to television, creating a near shot-for-shot recreation of iconic moments while giving viewers time to connect with Joel. His complexity - a man whose protective rage is matched only by his capacity for empathy - made him the undeniable heart of the show. By following the game's controversial decision to kill him early in the sequel, HBO may have sacrificed their strongest asset.
What makes this creative choice particularly questionable is the execution. The show's version of Abby lacks the physically imposing presence of her video game counterpart, described as a "female Adonis" with significant muscle mass. Instead, we're asked to believe someone who "looks like a stiff wind could blow her over" could overpower and beat Joel to death. Beyond believability issues, the remaining characters simply don't carry the same emotional weight. Ellie comes across as less sympathetic than her game version, and supporting characters like Tommy and Dina haven't been developed enough to fill the void Joel leaves behind.
Perhaps the most compelling alternative would have been to keep Joel alive by sacrificing Tommy instead. This would maintain the revenge narrative while allowing viewers to witness Joel's "scorched earth" approach to vengeance - something we've seen glimpses of in his protection of Ellie. Great adaptations know when to diverge from source material to better serve their medium, and The Last of Us may have missed an opportunity to elevate beyond simple recreation.
Have you continued watching after Joel's death? Do you think the series can recover without its most complex character? Share your thoughts on this controversial creative decision and whether HBO truly killed their golden goose.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
What you just said is one of the most insanely
idiotic things I have ever heard.
At no point in your rambling,incoherent response were you
even close to anything thatcould be considered a rational
thought.
Everyone in this room is nowdumber for having listened to.
(00:22):
It is now dumber for havinglistened to it.
You don't know what that oughtto is, mr Trash.
I'd show you, but I'm too old,I'm too tired, I'm too fucking
blind.
If I were the man I was fiveyears ago, I'd take a
flamethrower to this place, doyou understand?
(00:48):
the words that are coming out ofmy mouth.
You want answers.
I think I'm entitled.
You want answers.
I want the truth.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
You can't handle the truth.
We've said it once, we've saidit twice, we've said it a
million times the truth shallalways set you free.
This is Dennis Giddelfly, onthe Mad Ramblings of a Gen Xer.
Oh, it's been more than ahiccup since we've been on the
mic.
I don't even know what morethan a hiccup would be.
I don't even know if that wouldbe considered.
Would that be considered ahiccup and a burp?
Sorry, just it's one of thosemornings Was watching.
(01:26):
I don't watch a lot oftelevision and there are a few
shows out there that I guessthat excite me and that I really
want to get involved in.
And it's not because I'm thissuperior intellect that doesn't
watch the boob tube.
No, I just prefer movies andthings such as that.
I I even watched terriblemovies that you know other
(01:48):
people probably would just turntheir noses at, but I I find
that more intriguing andinteresting to watch than
getting sucked into weekly orbi-weekly series, uh, but every
once in a while, such as likethe walking dead.
Um, because I am, I am, I aminto the not occult but horror
films and zombie films andthings such as that.
(02:09):
And I was never a big.
I'm not a comic fan either.
So I never really followed thesource material of the Walking
Dead.
So when AMC deviated from thesource material, it really
didn't bother me Because Ididn't know the story.
Because I didn't know the story, I didn't know the background,
it was all kind of new to me.
But now with HBO Max and NaughtyDog and the Last of Us, which
(02:33):
is now season two, I've beenwatching this because I am an
avid video game player and I'vebeen playing video games since
Pong.
But I don't really thinkthey're ever going to make a
Pong movie or television show.
I don't think that might be inthe works, lord only knows.
You know, and I kind of went upthe rankings I never got the
(02:56):
Atari 2600.
I always had.
I had the Intellivision.
Yes, I know, I had the richbougie version of well, that
would be ColecoVision.
But you know, being an avidvideo game fan and going through
all the PlayStations, or Ishould say all the iterations of
the PlayStation and everythingelse, because of mutated spores
or spongi, whatever you want tocall it, or the corseps, and
(03:30):
it's interesting because whenyou play the game, they did a
great job in the beginning andso did the series of investing
you in the character of Joel,not so much his brother Tommy,
but you really got to invest in,especially when Joel's daughter
gets murdered and because shedoesn't just die, she does get
(03:50):
murdered by the soldier.
I'm not going to get toocompletely into it for those
that haven't watched or seen itor played the game, but the game
does a great job investing youinto that character.
And when HBO Max went and didthe first season of the series
the Last of Us, it wasinteresting because they really
took the time and effort toinvest you again in the
(04:13):
character of Joel, not so muchhis brother Tommy, but into his
brother, and in some ways theyalmost did a shot-for-shot
screen-for-screen remake of thatopening sequence from the video
game, which was fantastic.
And going through that firstseason it was very interesting
(04:33):
to see where they were goingwith the source material, which
was of course Naughty Dog'svideo game.
And while there was not much inreference to deviation from the
source material, it was justnice to see it kind of play.
In the video games you alwayssee the cut scenes and you
always have the.
You know some people skip thecut scenes.
I always watch the cinematiccut scenes, but in the video
(04:56):
game you have the cut scenes andsort of the series was piecing
together all the cut scenes tomake a, you know, to make a
drama, make a television drama.
Let's have some coffee, guys.
I'm going to drink that shitwhile it's still hot.
And, like I said, when I watchedWalking Dead, I never, I only
(05:16):
watched the first four seasonsof Walking Dead, but I didn't
know the source materials, foreverything was a surprise to me.
So I would not have been upsetif HBO Max that first season
took a different direction withthe source material.
I'm not one of these puriststhat says, well, it's got to be
(05:36):
just like the video game.
And I understand from WalkingDead they took some liberties
with the source material as well.
So I wouldn't have been upset.
But, like I said, it was niceto literally see the timeframe
from when the course of virustakes effect to when Joel's
daughter dies, to the meeting ofEllie, to the fireflies and
everything else and goingthrough that whole progression
(05:57):
in the very ending of season one, which the video game ending
was a great ending, and that wasa fantastic ending for the
first season of the series.
Now, when you go into seriesnumber two that we're in now
Naughty Dog.
Of course, this was based off Irephrase that this was based
off Naughty Dog's Last of Us 2,which was the follow-up to the
(06:17):
very successful video game Lastof Us.
So once again, hbo Max has thesource material, but as I'm
watching it, you know what'sgoing to happen, and if you
haven't watched or haven'tplayed the video game, I would
turn the podcast off now BecauseI'm going to tell you some more
(06:38):
spoilers.
Oh wait, we should play somewaiting music.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
I didn't know which button to push on the soundboard
, so I just pushed any button.
Okay, so going into season two,you knew Joel was going to die.
You knew Joel was going to getmurdered by Abby because of
revenge from what Joel did toAbby's father, who was the
doctor at the end of season one,where he shot her in the head,
shot him in the head.
I should rephrase that.
So you knew he was going to dieand I will give HBO Max credit.
(07:14):
They killed them all fairlyquickly, so, and they didn't
really.
I mean, I personally would havedragged it out, but that's just
me, but they killed them offvery quickly and they're kind of
going a direction with thisthat I don't like.
(07:34):
Now, all of a sudden, nowthey're going to take liberties
HO Maxx with the story and howthe story played out.
In the video game itself, tommyand Joel are actually surprised
, attacked, we'll say, orambushed, we'll say, by Abby and
her group.
After Tommy inadvertently givesup, joel says Joel's name and
then, of course, then Abbyfigures out who it is and the
(07:56):
whole thing with the golf clubhappens and blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah Again.
Like I said, we're not tryingto spoil too much, but in this
new series and in the HBOversion, joel goes out with the
character of Dina and of coursehe saves, he saves Abby, and
then Dina gives up Joel again byaccident, he says Joel's name
(08:17):
by accident and then we kind offollow back into the video game
arc and I'm watching this andI'm like, okay, okay, you really
are going to kill off Joel.
Now we have been invested withJoel's character through the
entire season one.
For the first episode of seasontwo.
We see the melodrama going onwith him and Ellie and you know,
(08:39):
like I said vis-a-vis the videogame, that he's going to die.
But then I keep thinking tomyself am I watching this If you
kill him?
And you're already taking somecreative liberties with some of
these characters?
Because Abby in the video gameis this is this warrior woman,
she's Xena warrior princess,she's this buff.
(08:59):
I mean she's buff in the videogame.
I mean she is like she, she islike a female Adonis.
You know she's got these hugearms, she's military trained,
all this fun stuff.
You know she's got these hugearms, she's military trained,
all this fun stuff.
And then you see the Abby inthe television series and Abby
in the television series lookslike a stiff wind could blow her
over and somehow she's thisvicious leader that's driving
(09:22):
this group.
And I'm looking at her like Idon't see it and I'm thinking to
myself how is she going to beatJoel to death with her fist in
a golf club when she looks likethat?
If a bus went by and she waswalking down the street and it
(09:42):
passed her, that she wouldprobably go flying in the breeze
.
And the epic battle at the endbetween Ellie and Abby.
I can't wait to see becauseit's so disturbing.
I go by this.
I like the Jack Reacher novels.
Jack Reacher was, of course,made into a movie by Tom Cruise
and Christopher McQuarrie, butJack Reacher, if you read the
novels, is like 6'3", 245 pounds, this hulking mass of a muscle
(10:07):
who, at one point in science,can suck the air out of a room
once he enters it.
Massive a muscle who, at onepoint in science, can suck the
air out of a room once he entersit.
And then you made Tom Cruise.
Jack Reacher Made zero sense.
Then when you go into the JackReacher Amazon series, it makes
you know.
Then you have now a characterwho's an actor, who's playing a
character who actually fits thebuild.
So Abby, this new version ofAbby does not fit the build
(10:29):
whatsoever, but we're going toget into that in a minute.
So as she shoots Joel with theshotgun, just like in the video
game, she beats him to death.
The golf clubs beat some oftheir bare hands.
And I'm looking at this going,I'm not buying it.
And then I keep thinking tomyself are we, are we?
(10:50):
Is HBO Max killing the goldengoose?
Because you really are notinvested in any other character
outside of Joel.
Tommy is an outlying character.
Ellie is not the, the, the TVseries version version of Ellie.
(11:11):
She is not as sympathetic of acharacter.
She kind of comes off as adickhead and she kind of comes
off as something you're notsomeone you're not really overly
rooting for.
There's no empathy with Ellie.
No, there's no empathy withwith Ellie and you have some of
(11:36):
the other background characters,but there's really no standout
character in this version.
Tommy's kind of a wet wimp inthis version, kind of what we
see when he goes to.
He goes to the, the the shrinkwatching the little league
baseball game and he's worriedabout Ellie.
He doesn't want Ellie to belike Joel and justify the anger.
Joel did what he had to do tokeep his brother alive,
especially in the early days,because, if you remember, in
(11:58):
both the series and the videogame Tommy's kind of a fuck up
when he gets arrested thatFriday night before everything
happens.
It seems this was not the firsttime that Joel had to bail him
out of jail.
He also works for Joel.
So Joel seems like he was doingwhatever he could do for those
20 years to protect Tommy.
(12:19):
And Tommy seemed to haveforgotten that in this series,
in this series itself, in the TVseries, in the video game, of
course he goes out for vengeance, but is it more because of the
fact that he gave up his brotherby accident and got him killed?
I don't know, you have tospeculate that on your own,
because in this version Dina'sthe one that gives him up.
But Tommy seems to besusceptible to anyone that gives
(12:47):
him attention.
But he's very impressionable,which is why he was recruited by
the Fireflies and he needssomeone like Joel or the
Fireflies to take care of him.
But in this version of it youwould think that someone just
murdered your brother, beat himto death with a golf club and
you would, you would wantvengeance.
(13:08):
Now, in the original game,tommy's the one that goes out.
Tommy's wife then sends Dinaand Ellie out to find Tommy.
But in this game, tommy's likewell you know, I don't want her
to be like Joel man, and I kindof look at this like, okay, well
, you know, that kind of sucksbecause now I have a feeling
that Tommy's going to go afterEllie and Dina, but we're not
(13:29):
going to get into that.
But as I'm watching this again,alex, and as they're killing
Joel and I just watched episodethree as well I keep thinking I
think HBO is making a hugemistake.
You're killing the only, youkilled off the only character
that had any depth to them.
That his faults, the faults inJoel, is what drives him.
(13:54):
It drives him to be the personthat he is.
It drives him to protect thepeople that he loves.
His rage and his anger is onlyequaled by his empathy, but at
times, like I said, it's hisdriving force.
I think it was the drivingforce of the show.
So after he dies, I knowthey're going to bring back
vis-a-vis flashbacks, which Ialways hate, but after he died
(14:18):
it's like and I'm watching, I'mlike I think they really fucked
up, because I think the wholeseries is going to go downhill
because of the fact that thischaracter, this character that
projects strength and anger andflaws on screen, is now gone and
we're stuck with an Elliecharacter who is not, as you
(14:43):
know, who is I don't want to saylovable, because I think
lovable is a bad term but who isnot as likable as her
counterpart from the video game.
So we jump into episode threeand as I'm watching episode
three and I'm watching thisbuild up episode, I always call
those episodes filler episodes.
It's a filler episode becauseyou had an action packed episode
(15:04):
in season two, so now you needa filler episode in season three
.
Walking Dead used to do thatshit all the time.
Racher does that all the timeas well.
So you to have that build-upepisode going into season
episode four, when they find thewolves and go after them and
they hunt for abby.
But as I'm watching thisepisode, I'm like I have.
I have really no more vestedinterest in the show now that
(15:26):
joel's gone, because I have novested interest with the fact
that there is really not acharacter here that makes me sit
there and say, okay, I reallywant to sit up and watch this
series Now.
Maybe it's just because it wasa filler episode in episode
three and you have such a,you're coming off such a, not a
euphoria, but you're coming offsuch a shock because of the
(15:48):
death in season two.
But I'm watching it.
I'm just like, eh, I don'treally empathize with Ellie.
I'm not, I don't, I don't, Idon't thoroughly enjoy the Dina
character, the old man with thecrutch I can't remember his name
.
That would that uh called thema dyke in season one, episode
one.
You know he was the only onethat had his speech, was the
only one that had interest,because it's like this whole
(16:09):
town all of a sudden became ahaven for pussies.
I was like, oh my god, theliberals have invaded jackson.
Because of the fact that you'rewatching, you're like you would
not want vengeance.
Joel had been with this groupfor five years, who helped build
the way the city is wherejackson what has become?
And he is, and he's his brother, is on the town council and so
(16:33):
is the brother's wife, and we'rejust like, eh, we're going to
let bygones be bygones.
I was like, okay, this is kindof going the wrong direction.
So now I've lost vestedinterest in the show and I was
thinking what could they havedone to keep this going, the
show.
And I was thinking, what couldthey have done to keep this
(16:55):
going?
You, you, of course, could havestretched out, see, uh, you
could have stretched, uh, theLast of Us 2, the video game
into two seasons, have a seasontwo and a season three.
Um, but that, that, just thatjust would have been trying and
taxing at best.
But if you were already takingcreative licenses with the
source material, why not changeit up even more?
(17:15):
Why lose one of the bestcharacters on the show and then
only bring it back vis-a-visflashbacks?
My theory was this, and I had atheory, I had a thought process
Don't kill off Joel.
It would take the story alittle bit into a different
(17:35):
direction.
But it's one of those thingsthat if you don't kill him off,
you still have a great character.
And with my new brilliant idea,you can still follow the Abby
arc, even though I don't thinkanyone believes this.
Abby could hurt a fly.
But here's my thing Instead ofkilling Joel, kill Tommy.
(18:00):
Still follow the video gamepremise, but have the
ex-Fireflies in Abby's group,you know, be ambush Joel and his
brother, and then have her gothrough the quintessential bad
(18:23):
guy dialogue, where I'm going togive you my entire master plan
of what we're going to be doingand have Abby accidentally
mention that she's looking forJoel and then have Tommy, who is
, and then have Tommy, who iswell, man up and protect his
(18:43):
brother, who has protected himwhich seems like his entire life
, and state that he is Joel.
Then of course, joel says I'mJoel, and then you would just
have Abby make the decision tokill Tommy and literally just
have her be, have Tommy fulfillthe same ending as Joel and kind
(19:04):
of have Abby in that I mean shemakes her rephrase a Joel in,
in, in in that Ellie rolebecause of the fact that would
you not love to see Joel enactvengeance for the death of his
brother?
We saw what he did to theFireflies in that hospital in
(19:28):
Denver.
We saw what he did to them.
Would you not love to see ascorched earth approach by Joel
going to Seattle with a singularfocus of destroying whoever
killed his brother?
Ellie said it best when she wastalking to Tommy and she said
(19:50):
you know that Joel would havebeen going out after them five
minutes after it happened,because for some reason in the
series they let three months goby, because, of course of the
attack of the mutants from theKulsep the Kulsep mutants, we'll
call it but they let threemonths go by before they decided
you know what.
Let's go and act of vengeance,and you can still have Abby I
(20:18):
mean, excuse me, you can stillhave Joel and Ellie in the
dynamic about what he did to theFireflies.
You can still have that wholearc and story, that story arc,
but then you could also haveAbby and Joel teaming together
with this animosity going afterAbby and her crew for murdering
Tommy, after Abby and her crewfor murdering Tommy, and you can
(20:44):
literally still have one ofyour most flushed out characters
available for not only all ofseason two but season three,
season four.
It's not like when they killedoff Rick, or allegedly killed
off Rick in Walking Dead,because we all knew he wasn't
dead, but it wasn't like whenthey did that because of the
fact that that series hadalready run.
What eight, nine years before?
Andrew Lincoln said he didn'twant to do Walking Dead anymore,
(21:05):
that he wants to do otherprojects.
So they had already gone.
You know eight, nine seasons,or how many it was, before they
killed off Rick and went withanother character base which
then quintessentially basicallyended the show because people
like Maggie and Daryl and Carolthey you know the king, they
couldn't carry the show on theown because, you know, andrew
(21:27):
Lincoln's character of Rick wasonce again the quintessential
flawed character that we allcould relate to, kind of like
Joel.
So, and as I'm watching this, Ikeep thinking do I even really
care about episode four?
Do I even really, if there'seight to 10 episodes again?
Do I really want to invest anytime going through watching this
(21:51):
?
You know pretty much the answerto me is no.
I rather watch Snow White.
That was a joke, that was a badjoke, but that was actually a
good joke.
So, like I said, sometimes Ithink these writers and creative
people, they want to follow thesource material to a T, but
(22:14):
then they want to deviate fromthe source material when it
leads to them to what they feelis going to be to create a
better story.
And what's a better story?
Of Joel enacting vengeance forTommy?
You could still have the.
You could still have Joelincapacitated and have Ellie and
Abby have this epic, epicbattle, have this epic battle.
(22:45):
It's like Gonzo fighting Kermitthe Frog, but you can still
have this epic battle.
At the end you could have Joelincapacitated and dying as Ellie
has to battle, you know, has tobattle Abby, and then you know
they find a common ground.
I'm not going to say whathappens, but you know what
happens at the end.
I just think that would go abetter route and a better
direction.
Oh, we're going to try to getback on track doing these videos
(23:06):
or podcasts.
I just haven't had theopportunity in time.
So, as always, don't forget thetruth.
I'm Charlie Cicifre.
This is Tim.
This is Get Off my Lawn.
The Mad Ramblings of a Gen Xer.
You.
What you just said is one of the most insanely
idiotic things I have ever heard.
At no point in your rambling,incoherent response were you
even close to anything thatcould be considered a rational
thought.
Everyone in this room is nowdumber for having listened to.
(00:22):
It is now dumber for havinglistened to it.
You don't know what that oughtto is, mr Trash.
I'd show you, but I'm too old,I'm too tired, I'm too fucking
blind.
If I were the man I was fiveyears ago, I'd take a
flamethrower to this place, doyou understand?
(00:48):
the words that are coming out ofmy mouth.
You want answers.
I think I'm entitled.
You want answers.
I want the truth.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
You can't handle the truth.
We've said it once, we've saidit twice, we've said it a
million times the truth shallalways set you free.
This is Dennis Giddelfly, onthe Mad Ramblings of a Gen Xer.
Oh, it's been more than ahiccup since we've been on the
mic.
I don't even know what morethan a hiccup would be.
I don't even know if that wouldbe considered.
Would that be considered ahiccup and a burp?
Sorry, just it's one of thosemornings Was watching.
(01:26):
I don't watch a lot oftelevision and there are a few
shows out there that I guessthat excite me and that I really
want to get involved in.
And it's not because I'm thissuperior intellect that doesn't
watch the boob tube.
No, I just prefer movies andthings such as that.
I I even watched terriblemovies that you know other
(01:48):
people probably would just turntheir noses at, but I I find
that more intriguing andinteresting to watch than
getting sucked into weekly orbi-weekly series, uh, but every
once in a while, such as likethe walking dead.
Um, because I am, I am, I aminto the not occult but horror
films and zombie films andthings such as that.
(02:09):
And I was never a big.
I'm not a comic fan either.
So I never really followed thesource material of the Walking
Dead.
So when AMC deviated from thesource material, it really
didn't bother me Because Ididn't know the story.
Because I didn't know the story, I didn't know the background,
it was all kind of new to me.
But now with HBO Max and NaughtyDog and the Last of Us, which
(02:33):
is now season two, I've beenwatching this because I am an
avid video game player and I'vebeen playing video games since
Pong.
But I don't really thinkthey're ever going to make a
Pong movie or television show.
I don't think that might be inthe works, lord only knows.
You know, and I kind of went upthe rankings I never got the
(02:56):
Atari 2600.
I always had.
I had the Intellivision.
Yes, I know, I had the richbougie version of well, that
would be ColecoVision.
But you know, being an avidvideo game fan and going through
all the PlayStations, or Ishould say all the iterations of
the PlayStation and everythingelse, because of mutated spores
or spongi, whatever you want tocall it, or the corseps, and
(03:30):
it's interesting because whenyou play the game, they did a
great job in the beginning andso did the series of investing
you in the character of Joel,not so much his brother Tommy,
but you really got to invest in,especially when Joel's daughter
gets murdered and because shedoesn't just die, she does get
(03:50):
murdered by the soldier.
I'm not going to get toocompletely into it for those
that haven't watched or seen itor played the game, but the game
does a great job investing youinto that character.
And when HBO Max went and didthe first season of the series
the Last of Us, it wasinteresting because they really
took the time and effort toinvest you again in the
(04:13):
character of Joel, not so muchhis brother Tommy, but into his
brother, and in some ways theyalmost did a shot-for-shot
screen-for-screen remake of thatopening sequence from the video
game, which was fantastic.
And going through that firstseason it was very interesting
(04:33):
to see where they were goingwith the source material, which
was of course Naughty Dog'svideo game.
And while there was not much inreference to deviation from the
source material, it was justnice to see it kind of play.
In the video games you alwayssee the cut scenes and you
always have the.
You know some people skip thecut scenes.
I always watch the cinematiccut scenes, but in the video
(04:56):
game you have the cut scenes andsort of the series was piecing
together all the cut scenes tomake a, you know, to make a
drama, make a television drama.
Let's have some coffee, guys.
I'm going to drink that shitwhile it's still hot.
And, like I said, when I watchedWalking Dead, I never, I only
(05:16):
watched the first four seasonsof Walking Dead, but I didn't
know the source materials, foreverything was a surprise to me.
So I would not have been upsetif HBO Max that first season
took a different direction withthe source material.
I'm not one of these puriststhat says, well, it's got to be
(05:36):
just like the video game.
And I understand from WalkingDead they took some liberties
with the source material as well.
So I wouldn't have been upset.
But, like I said, it was niceto literally see the timeframe
from when the course of virustakes effect to when Joel's
daughter dies, to the meeting ofEllie, to the fireflies and
everything else and goingthrough that whole progression
(05:57):
in the very ending of season one, which the video game ending
was a great ending, and that wasa fantastic ending for the
first season of the series.
Now, when you go into seriesnumber two that we're in now
Naughty Dog.
Of course, this was based off Irephrase that this was based
off Naughty Dog's Last of Us 2,which was the follow-up to the
(06:17):
very successful video game Lastof Us.
So once again, hbo Max has thesource material, but as I'm
watching it, you know what'sgoing to happen, and if you
haven't watched or haven'tplayed the video game, I would
turn the podcast off now BecauseI'm going to tell you some more
(06:38):
spoilers.
Oh wait, we should play somewaiting music.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
I didn't know which button to push on the soundboard
, so I just pushed any button.
Okay, so going into season two,you knew Joel was going to die.
You knew Joel was going to getmurdered by Abby because of
revenge from what Joel did toAbby's father, who was the
doctor at the end of season one,where he shot her in the head,
shot him in the head.
I should rephrase that.
So you knew he was going to dieand I will give HBO Max credit.
(07:14):
They killed them all fairlyquickly, so, and they didn't
really.
I mean, I personally would havedragged it out, but that's just
me, but they killed them offvery quickly and they're kind of
going a direction with thisthat I don't like.
(07:34):
Now, all of a sudden, nowthey're going to take liberties
HO Maxx with the story and howthe story played out.
In the video game itself, tommyand Joel are actually surprised
, attacked, we'll say, orambushed, we'll say, by Abby and
her group.
After Tommy inadvertently givesup, joel says Joel's name and
then, of course, then Abbyfigures out who it is and the
(07:56):
whole thing with the golf clubhappens and blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah Again.
Like I said, we're not tryingto spoil too much, but in this
new series and in the HBOversion, joel goes out with the
character of Dina and of coursehe saves, he saves Abby, and
then Dina gives up Joel again byaccident, he says Joel's name
(08:17):
by accident and then we kind offollow back into the video game
arc and I'm watching this andI'm like, okay, okay, you really
are going to kill off Joel.
Now we have been invested withJoel's character through the
entire season one.
For the first episode of seasontwo.
We see the melodrama going onwith him and Ellie and you know,
(08:39):
like I said vis-a-vis the videogame, that he's going to die.
But then I keep thinking tomyself am I watching this If you
kill him?
And you're already taking somecreative liberties with some of
these characters?
Because Abby in the video gameis this is this warrior woman,
she's Xena warrior princess,she's this buff.
(08:59):
I mean she's buff in the videogame.
I mean she is like she, she islike a female Adonis.
You know she's got these hugearms, she's military trained,
all this fun stuff.
You know she's got these hugearms, she's military trained,
all this fun stuff.
And then you see the Abby inthe television series and Abby
in the television series lookslike a stiff wind could blow her
over and somehow she's thisvicious leader that's driving
(09:22):
this group.
And I'm looking at her like Idon't see it and I'm thinking to
myself how is she going to beatJoel to death with her fist in
a golf club when she looks likethat?
If a bus went by and she waswalking down the street and it
(09:42):
passed her, that she wouldprobably go flying in the breeze
.
And the epic battle at the endbetween Ellie and Abby.
I can't wait to see becauseit's so disturbing.
I go by this.
I like the Jack Reacher novels.
Jack Reacher was, of course,made into a movie by Tom Cruise
and Christopher McQuarrie, butJack Reacher, if you read the
novels, is like 6'3", 245 pounds, this hulking mass of a muscle
(10:07):
who, at one point in science,can suck the air out of a room
once he enters it.
Massive a muscle who, at onepoint in science, can suck the
air out of a room once he entersit.
And then you made Tom Cruise.
Jack Reacher Made zero sense.
Then when you go into the JackReacher Amazon series, it makes
you know.
Then you have now a characterwho's an actor, who's playing a
character who actually fits thebuild.
So Abby, this new version ofAbby does not fit the build
(10:29):
whatsoever, but we're going toget into that in a minute.
So as she shoots Joel with theshotgun, just like in the video
game, she beats him to death.
The golf clubs beat some oftheir bare hands.
And I'm looking at this going,I'm not buying it.
And then I keep thinking tomyself are we, are we?
(10:50):
Is HBO Max killing the goldengoose?
Because you really are notinvested in any other character
outside of Joel.
Tommy is an outlying character.
Ellie is not the, the, the TVseries version version of Ellie.
(11:11):
She is not as sympathetic of acharacter.
She kind of comes off as adickhead and she kind of comes
off as something you're notsomeone you're not really overly
rooting for.
There's no empathy with Ellie.
No, there's no empathy withwith Ellie and you have some of
(11:36):
the other background characters,but there's really no standout
character in this version.
Tommy's kind of a wet wimp inthis version, kind of what we
see when he goes to.
He goes to the, the the shrinkwatching the little league
baseball game and he's worriedabout Ellie.
He doesn't want Ellie to belike Joel and justify the anger.
Joel did what he had to do tokeep his brother alive,
especially in the early days,because, if you remember, in
(11:58):
both the series and the videogame Tommy's kind of a fuck up
when he gets arrested thatFriday night before everything
happens.
It seems this was not the firsttime that Joel had to bail him
out of jail.
He also works for Joel.
So Joel seems like he was doingwhatever he could do for those
20 years to protect Tommy.
(12:19):
And Tommy seemed to haveforgotten that in this series,
in this series itself, in the TVseries, in the video game, of
course he goes out for vengeance, but is it more because of the
fact that he gave up his brotherby accident and got him killed?
I don't know, you have tospeculate that on your own,
because in this version Dina'sthe one that gives him up.
But Tommy seems to besusceptible to anyone that gives
(12:47):
him attention.
But he's very impressionable,which is why he was recruited by
the Fireflies and he needssomeone like Joel or the
Fireflies to take care of him.
But in this version of it youwould think that someone just
murdered your brother, beat himto death with a golf club and
you would, you would wantvengeance.
(13:08):
Now, in the original game,tommy's the one that goes out.
Tommy's wife then sends Dinaand Ellie out to find Tommy.
But in this game, tommy's likewell you know, I don't want her
to be like Joel man, and I kindof look at this like, okay, well
, you know, that kind of sucksbecause now I have a feeling
that Tommy's going to go afterEllie and Dina, but we're not
(13:29):
going to get into that.
But as I'm watching this again,alex, and as they're killing
Joel and I just watched episodethree as well I keep thinking I
think HBO is making a hugemistake.
You're killing the only, youkilled off the only character
that had any depth to them.
That his faults, the faults inJoel, is what drives him.
(13:54):
It drives him to be the personthat he is.
It drives him to protect thepeople that he loves.
His rage and his anger is onlyequaled by his empathy, but at
times, like I said, it's hisdriving force.
I think it was the drivingforce of the show.
So after he dies, I knowthey're going to bring back
vis-a-vis flashbacks, which Ialways hate, but after he died
(14:18):
it's like and I'm watching, I'mlike I think they really fucked
up, because I think the wholeseries is going to go downhill
because of the fact that thischaracter, this character that
projects strength and anger andflaws on screen, is now gone and
we're stuck with an Elliecharacter who is not, as you
(14:43):
know, who is I don't want to saylovable, because I think
lovable is a bad term but who isnot as likable as her
counterpart from the video game.
So we jump into episode threeand as I'm watching episode
three and I'm watching thisbuild up episode, I always call
those episodes filler episodes.
It's a filler episode becauseyou had an action packed episode
(15:04):
in season two, so now you needa filler episode in season three
.
Walking Dead used to do thatshit all the time.
Racher does that all the timeas well.
So you to have that build-upepisode going into season
episode four, when they find thewolves and go after them and
they hunt for abby.
But as I'm watching thisepisode, I'm like I have.
I have really no more vestedinterest in the show now that
(15:26):
joel's gone, because I have novested interest with the fact
that there is really not acharacter here that makes me sit
there and say, okay, I reallywant to sit up and watch this
series Now.
Maybe it's just because it wasa filler episode in episode
three and you have such a,you're coming off such a, not a
euphoria, but you're coming offsuch a shock because of the
(15:48):
death in season two.
But I'm watching it.
I'm just like, eh, I don'treally empathize with Ellie.
I'm not, I don't, I don't, Idon't thoroughly enjoy the Dina
character, the old man with thecrutch I can't remember his name
.
That would that uh called thema dyke in season one, episode
one.
You know he was the only onethat had his speech, was the
only one that had interest,because it's like this whole
(16:09):
town all of a sudden became ahaven for pussies.
I was like, oh my god, theliberals have invaded jackson.
Because of the fact that you'rewatching, you're like you would
not want vengeance.
Joel had been with this groupfor five years, who helped build
the way the city is wherejackson what has become?
And he is, and he's his brother, is on the town council and so
(16:33):
is the brother's wife, and we'rejust like, eh, we're going to
let bygones be bygones.
I was like, okay, this is kindof going the wrong direction.
So now I've lost vestedinterest in the show and I was
thinking what could they havedone to keep this going, the
show.
And I was thinking, what couldthey have done to keep this
(16:55):
going?
You, you, of course, could havestretched out, see, uh, you
could have stretched, uh, theLast of Us 2, the video game
into two seasons, have a seasontwo and a season three.
Um, but that, that, just thatjust would have been trying and
taxing at best.
But if you were already takingcreative licenses with the
source material, why not changeit up even more?
(17:15):
Why lose one of the bestcharacters on the show and then
only bring it back vis-a-visflashbacks?
My theory was this, and I had atheory, I had a thought process
Don't kill off Joel.
It would take the story alittle bit into a different
(17:35):
direction.
But it's one of those thingsthat if you don't kill him off,
you still have a great character.
And with my new brilliant idea,you can still follow the Abby
arc, even though I don't thinkanyone believes this.
Abby could hurt a fly.
But here's my thing Instead ofkilling Joel, kill Tommy.
(18:00):
Still follow the video gamepremise, but have the
ex-Fireflies in Abby's group,you know, be ambush Joel and his
brother, and then have her gothrough the quintessential bad
(18:23):
guy dialogue, where I'm going togive you my entire master plan
of what we're going to be doingand have Abby accidentally
mention that she's looking forJoel and then have Tommy, who is
, and then have Tommy, who iswell, man up and protect his
(18:43):
brother, who has protected himwhich seems like his entire life
, and state that he is Joel.
Then of course, joel says I'mJoel, and then you would just
have Abby make the decision tokill Tommy and literally just
have her be, have Tommy fulfillthe same ending as Joel and kind
(19:04):
of have Abby in that I mean shemakes her rephrase a Joel in,
in, in in that Ellie rolebecause of the fact that would
you not love to see Joel enactvengeance for the death of his
brother?
We saw what he did to theFireflies in that hospital in
(19:28):
Denver.
We saw what he did to them.
Would you not love to see ascorched earth approach by Joel
going to Seattle with a singularfocus of destroying whoever
killed his brother?
Ellie said it best when she wastalking to Tommy and she said
(19:50):
you know that Joel would havebeen going out after them five
minutes after it happened,because for some reason in the
series they let three months goby, because, of course of the
attack of the mutants from theKulsep the Kulsep mutants, we'll
call it but they let threemonths go by before they decided
you know what.
Let's go and act of vengeance,and you can still have Abby I
(20:18):
mean, excuse me, you can stillhave Joel and Ellie in the
dynamic about what he did to theFireflies.
You can still have that wholearc and story, that story arc,
but then you could also haveAbby and Joel teaming together
with this animosity going afterAbby and her crew for murdering
Tommy, after Abby and her crewfor murdering Tommy, and you can
(20:44):
literally still have one ofyour most flushed out characters
available for not only all ofseason two but season three,
season four.
It's not like when they killedoff Rick, or allegedly killed
off Rick in Walking Dead,because we all knew he wasn't
dead, but it wasn't like whenthey did that because of the
fact that that series hadalready run.
What eight, nine years before?
Andrew Lincoln said he didn'twant to do Walking Dead anymore,
(21:05):
that he wants to do otherprojects.
So they had already gone.
You know eight, nine seasons,or how many it was, before they
killed off Rick and went withanother character base which
then quintessentially basicallyended the show because people
like Maggie and Daryl and Carolthey you know the king, they
couldn't carry the show on theown because, you know, andrew
(21:27):
Lincoln's character of Rick wasonce again the quintessential
flawed character that we allcould relate to, kind of like
Joel.
So, and as I'm watching this, Ikeep thinking do I even really
care about episode four?
Do I even really, if there'seight to 10 episodes again?
Do I really want to invest anytime going through watching this
(21:51):
?
You know pretty much the answerto me is no.
I rather watch Snow White.
That was a joke, that was a badjoke, but that was actually a
good joke.
So, like I said, sometimes Ithink these writers and creative
people, they want to follow thesource material to a T, but
(22:14):
then they want to deviate fromthe source material when it
leads to them to what they feelis going to be to create a
better story.
And what's a better story?
Of Joel enacting vengeance forTommy?
You could still have the.
You could still have Joelincapacitated and have Ellie and
Abby have this epic, epicbattle, have this epic battle.
(22:45):
It's like Gonzo fighting Kermitthe Frog, but you can still
have this epic battle.
At the end you could have Joelincapacitated and dying as Ellie
has to battle, you know, has tobattle Abby, and then you know
they find a common ground.
I'm not going to say whathappens, but you know what
happens at the end.
I just think that would go abetter route and a better
direction.
Oh, we're going to try to getback on track doing these videos
(23:06):
or podcasts.
I just haven't had theopportunity in time.
So, as always, don't forget thetruth.
I'm Charlie Cicifre.
This is Tim.
This is Get Off my Lawn.
The Mad Ramblings of a Gen Xer.
You.
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