Ep. 81: Marauding Chimps

This episode was voted on by our Patrons, and they specifically requested Nick join us again for our least favorite animal topic: Chimps!

This episode is mainly focused on the human-chimp conflicts occurring in Uganda, per a 2019 National Geographic publication. But we end the episode talking about a recent pet chimpanzee attack in Oregon. 

Support the show for free by leaving a 5-star review wherever you're listening, or on GoodPods or Podchaser (where we can respond to your comments).

Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, Tiktok, check out our website GetOutAlivePodcast.com and join us on Patreon (where you can now follow us for free)!

You can find Ashley @TheAngryOlogist on Twitter

Episode Transcript

(00:15):
Welcome to episode eighty one of GetOut Alive, a bi weekly podcast about
animal tacks, why they happen,and how we can avoid them. I'm
your host, Ashley, and I'myour guest host, Nick my guest.
I'm the guest. Hello, welcomeback. Thanks. I'm sure you've gotten
a lot of listeners to the lasttime I was on. Do you want

(00:36):
to explain my animal expertise to theaudience? Would you like to explain your
expertise or lack there? Yeah?I have not No, I'm just a
dude. I'm just making Oh wedid this together. There's been plenty of
people who've been like, where's Nick? Please bring Nick back? And I
know that it I feel like Iexplained it at least one time. Maybe

(00:56):
that it's just it's a lot.You work a lot, and you work
rough hours and it's a lot ofwork to do this. Yeah. Yeah,
no, it was. It wasa bit. It was a lot.
So life is simpler now. Yeah, that's cool for you still tired
of shit? Great? So thisepisode was voted on by patrons at patreon
dot com, and they specifically requestedthat Nick be back for this because we're

(01:19):
talking about chimps, and that isour thing. I'm always down hate.
Yeah, we specifically hate chimps,so it only was fitting. And if
you want to add free episodes,bonus episodes, or gifts which are being
sent out this week, join uson Patreon. That's it. Is that
the gift that I got? Yeah, yes, you forgot one. It's

(01:40):
yeah, enjoy it. Pretty niceand perfectly time for this time of year.
All right, So nick this isa new thing since you've last been
here. So we used to dothe Patreon shout outs for like new Expert
Survivalists, and now instead we arereading reviews. Oh my god, I
love it, Nicko. Would youlike to hit us with a review?
So this is from Frustrated with Twitteron Apple Podcasts. Apparently that's the user

(02:05):
name, is what I'm being toldthe review is guess introducing their pronouns exhausting,
better after the male host left.Thanks for that, appreciate it.
Don't quite understand the the correlation there, how they guess introduce themselves introducing their
pronouns is exhausting and then better afterthe male host left. I feel like

(02:25):
I'm the other end of that spectrum. I don't quite understand this. Also,
if you've listened for long enough tohear enough guests say their pronouns,
which, first of all, Iask them to. I ask everyone to
say their pronouns, because I thinkit's as basic as like you saying your
name, and just it's so funnythat they're like pronouns are exhausting. Can't
be challenged to remember the male hostname though he's just a dude. So

(02:46):
if you listen long enough to knowthe pronouns but not Nick's name, if
I could just be like serious aboutit for like one second, because this
specifically bothered me with everything going onin the world right now between like Israel
bombing Palestine and the war still happeningin Ukraine, and we're talking about Africa
in this episode and there's literally stillchildren sold into slavery in Africa, And

(03:07):
the thing that exhausts you to thepoint that you have to go tell people
about it is hearing one second ofaudio people introducing themselves like that is the
thing that gets you. But youaren't exhausted enough that you can take the
time to write a review about it. What a privilege. Moving on,
we appreciate it. Yeah, Andif you'd like to leave a five star
review in say nice Things, doit we appreciate? Oh yea, I

(03:31):
think it was three out of five. It was three. Yeah it's bad,
which I was like, I can'tnot have you read that review because
it just popped up and it wasvery funny. All right. Anyways,
So if you have not heard episodefourteen of this podcast, we in that
episode discussed the story of Travis thepet chimp fucking wild one. Yeah.

(03:51):
That was like one of the mostbrutal episodes I think we've ever had probably
Yeah. Yeah, so definitely listeningto that one if you want context as
to chimps horrify us. That islike the story that made me not like
chimpanzees or not want to be aroundthem. I think it's like a better
phrasing from like when we're kids.Like that was a well known one,
So that wasn't just like a senseof podcast that's like been my micro life

(04:13):
growing up. Have not liked chimps? No, same, Yeah that was
two thousand and nine, that attackhappened, and yeah, ever since then,
I've been like absolutely not. Sonow. Also, I was at
a wedding this weekend. My brothergot Mary. Congrats Kyle and Amanda.
Uh So, if my voice isscratchy, it's because I was screaming for
like two days straight. It Okay, So before we even continue into the

(04:35):
whole chimp thing, like the attacksthat we're going to talk about, because
of the nature of like how strongchimps are and how intelligent they are,
the stories that we're talking about todaycan be really graphic and they do involve
mostly children. Oh yeah, Sokeep that in mind. And normally on
podcasts, like if we're talking aboutlike one specific species, I like to

(04:56):
do like a little background, andI don't think we've We've never done like
a fully chick like wild chimp episode, So I don't think we've talked much
about like chimps where they're supposed tobe, because Travis, that episode was
about a chimp in Connecticut, notwhere they're supposed to be even a little
bit. Just a backtrack to apes, Nick, what's the difference between an
ape and Emma? Oh oh hthe opposable thumbs? No, oh my

(05:19):
god, I've asked you this questionat no less than five times on this
punch apes and monkeys, the differenttail, yes, yes, thank you,
Okay, which one has the tail? The monkeys have tails. Nice.
Yes, there are more differences thanthat, obviously, but that is
like the easiest difference. So chimpsare apes and they are native to West

(05:39):
and Central Africa. And a recentstudy that came out, which was the
largest study of gorillas and chimps ever, had fifty four co authors from several
organizations and government agencies that I willnot list here because there are so many
it would take so long. Butresearchers collected field data during foot surveys carried
out over a ten year period.So it spanned the range of both western
low gorillas, which their scientific namegorilla, gorilla, gorilla, Oh yeah,

(06:03):
super easy, and then the centralchimpanzees, which is pan troglodits trogloditis.
Sure, sure, I could sayanything and you would believe. So
they surveyed an area that was seventytwo thousand square miles equivalent to the size
of the state of Washington. Damnyeah, and it included some of the

(06:23):
most remote forests on the African continent, and they found that population numbers were
actually higher than they previously thought.However, eighty percent of the gorillas and
chimps that they studied lived outside protectedareas. And the study also found that
in protected areas, the gorillas andchimps thrived, but outside those protected areas
they face capture for pet trade,illegal logging and habitat destruction, and illegal

(06:46):
poaching. And the poaching has becomeespecially a problem because the bush meat trade
has become commercialized. There is stillsome like subsistence bush meat hunting happening,
but now it's also a thing thatlike rich people in earth areas want as
like a delicacy. Chimpanzee meat isthat like a thing. So I don't
think it's like people going out andseeking out chimps specifically, but I think

(07:09):
it's people leave out snares and thenchimps happen to get caught in them,
so they just kill them and eatthem anyways and then sell it as generic
meat. Yeah, I don't knowif I don't know if that's the thing
that people ask for, because alsothere's obviously ginormous zoonotic disease risk because we
share so much DNA with them,So like it's kind of how aid's happened,
and there's things like ebola, andyeah there's a lot, but like

(07:30):
how it tastes that's a more importantpart, like would it be good?
I And like, at what pointis it just too close to like eating
a person? You know, No, it's it's not a person. I'm
not going to go there, likeno, no, no, no,
it ain't. Oh I went thecannibals. But like I just wonder how
it tastes. If it's good,then like all right, like I can
be convinced. No, no,I can't because it's terrible. And we

(07:50):
would never do that. No,never mind, I caught myself. I
would never eat a change to growingin learning. It's a bad thing.
We're not going to do. Wedo not support the consumption of no,
no, no, no, no, no no. Yeah. So,
chimpanzees are still considered endangered by theIUCN Red List and are extirpated from four

(08:11):
countries that they were originally found in, meaning that they were native to four
countries that they no longer exist in. So we are going to end this
episode talking about a pet chimpanzee story, but the majority of this episode is
going to be focused on like wildchimps. So, wild chimps live in
family groups, typically like six toten individuals, but an entire community made

(08:33):
up of multiple family groups can sometimesencompass one hundred individuals, so this is
called fission fusion, which means thatthey'll break up into smaller groups, which
is the fish, and sometimes thosesmall groups come together to form a larger
group the fuse. Put that togetheryourself. Yeah, so I feel like

(08:56):
we're both pretty tired. So ifthe energy is lacking, our beds fernday.
So sometimes leadership in these groups isattributed to a singular male, but
other times multiple males will serve asleaders. And unlike many other animals where
females stay in the area where they'reborn and then males take off, chimps
the opposite. So males will typicallystay in the community and then as they

(09:16):
get older, females will leave toseek out like other mating opportunities and start
like new families in different areas.Not true. So according to live science
dot com, chimps are one pointfive times stronger than humans because they have
more fast twitch muscle fibers than humans, which is good for strength and speed,
whereas we have developed more slow twitchmuscle fibers better for endurance and traveling

(09:37):
long distances and in general, especiallylike conversations, you and I have had
nick. I think we think ofchimps as like really aggressive animals, and
males are like especially known to beaggressive. And this is especially true if
they are like if the males arethe dominant ones in the chimpanzee community.
And we've talked before personally, andI think on this podcast about like chimpanzee

(10:01):
wars, where like there are likeessentially these communities that will literally go to
war with one another with neighboring communities. Yes, and that is true,
that does happen, but sometimes malesfrom one community will form like a small
group and they will go into aneighboring community to assassinate one specific chimp.
Yeah, so that is the levelof like intelligence and aggression that we are

(10:24):
talking about. Oh, is thata hit squad going after people? Which
is horrified because they also are reallyquiet when they move through the forest,
so they can be silent and likeliterally assassinate each other. Don't piss off
a chimpanzee. And that's why wedon't support them being pets. Facts.
So there's also a recent study.This is like almost a little irrelevant,
but I thought it was interesting.So it describes for the first time like

(10:48):
in scientific literature. Chimpanzees killing gorillas? Whoa really so? On two occasions,
a team of researchers in the LuangoNational Park in twenty nineteen observed a
group of chimpanzees coordinate attacks on agroup of gorillas. There were two male
gorillas and a group of female gorillas, most of which escaped this attack,

(11:09):
but two infant gorillas got separated duringone of the encounters and were killed by
the chimpanzees. So they were launchingan attack at all the gorillas in general,
but it was the infant ones thatwere killed yep. Which I don't
know if that's any constellation or anyless horrifying. It's just kind of wild,
like I would I'd imagine grilla reallykind of tear chimpanzee apart, fanned

(11:31):
off a chimp, yeah, becausethey're so much bigger. But this was
especially surprising the researchers because historically therehave been a lot of peaceful and even
like playful interactions between chimps and gorillasin the wild, which made these observations
pretty groundbreaking, and researchers assumed thatit was due to their shared food sources
being limited at the time, sosometimes there are deadly conflicts, like within

(11:52):
those chimpanzee communities that I mentioned,like between family groups in one community,
but it's not nearly as common asbetween neighboring communities. But the worst conflict
within groups is infanticide, which iswhen males, specifically most of the time,
are the ones killing infants, eveninfants that they may have fathers.
Ooh, and I could not findany sort of writing on why that may

(12:16):
happen. I mean, it's Iknow, it's like a thing that they
do for other males offspring, forlike genetic reasons, right, but it
may puts the mother into fucking pregnancymode. Again, quicker, it's a
thing with a lions, Yes,exactly, it does happen with lions.
But like you would think, ifthe chimp was the father, why would
he kill his own baby? AndI saw some reports saying like females might

(12:39):
do it if there's like not alot of food to go around, they
might kill their own baby. ButI feel like it's not like a hugely
researched thing at this point, becausethey're terrifying and they do whatever the heck
they want. Yeah, that's why, you know, how like honey,
badger. Don't give a fuck withthat thing. The new thing is like
chimpanzee. Oh, chimpanzee. Nevergive a fuck, never not never give
a fuck. So, although malechimps are more aggressive, they also reconcile

(13:03):
with others the most. So aftera conflict with another chimp, males will
often go back to the chimp thatthey were fighting with and offer a hand,
embrace and sometimes kiss to make up. Yeah, similar to well,
not similar to banobos. So likebnobo's we've talked about, they are another
ape, but they are like theflip side of chimps where instead of like

(13:24):
being aggressive and having a lot ofconflict, they mostly love to resolve conflicts.
So like the hippies of the apeworld, the hippies, I still
don't want don't want to mess withthem. It's all no no, I
all of them freak me out.So yes, agreed. So I feel
like personally for me, I've hearda lot of stories about how aggressive wild
chimps can be towards each other.Because there was a lot of shows on

(13:48):
like Animal Planet and stuff where itwould talk about like chimps. There was
one specific show, chimp Eden.I think it was I don't know if
you ever saw that an Animal Planet, but it was a guy who had
like a captive group of chimpanzees thathe would like rescue in Africa and then
try to like make a community withall these chimps that he had rescued.
May have seen something like that.Yeah, I made this specific. I
remember like the show that was aboutlike the Chimpanzee Wars or whatever, like

(14:13):
where was like the two groups thatwould like fight each other and they were
like document the whole thing. Yeah, so I feel like, yeah,
from what we've seen on the AnimalPlanet and documentaries and stuff, we mostly
have seen chimps attacking each other.But I had never, until researching this
episode, really looked into or heardmuch about chimps in the wild attacking people.
So let's get into it. Ourfirst story takes place in twenty fourteen

(14:37):
in western Uganda with the Samata family, and I will do my best at
pronouncing all of the things that aregonna come up good block. So specifically,
we're talking about the Kayamajaka village andthe escalating issues they have been facing
with wild chimpanzees. So this villageis just to east of Lake Albert and

(15:01):
the ruin Zori Mountains, sure,thank you. Within the Kagati district,
and we're talking about the Samata family, who, like the others around them,
had gardens to grow their own cropsto feed themselves in this village and
the area in which they live hasvery rich volcanic soil and they get really
decent seasonal rain. So there area ton of families on private plots that

(15:22):
grow crops such as corn, cassava, domestic fruits like papayas and bananas,
and sometimes cash crops like coffee,tobacco, sugarcane or rice. But the
wild chimpanzees in the area had becomedesperate for food. There were only a
dozen or so living around this town, and at night they'd either sleep at
the nearby eucalyptus plantation or in theremaining woods at the bottom of the valley.

(15:43):
But because so much of their habitathas been destroyed to accommodate the need
for humans farming, they have hadto resort to taking crops from the village,
and because there are no trees leftfor them within these communities to move
through, they are forced to justwalk around on all fours or upright on
their two legs, which often bringsthem in contact with humans. Terrifying.

(16:04):
Yeah, not to mention that theyalso all share the same water source,
like they all like the people andthe chimps all get water from the same
stream. Good. As of twentyfourteen, the chimp human conflicts in Africa
had been growing more and more serious. So in the nineteen nineties, there
were eight recorded attacks on humans bychimps, seven of which were believed to
be caused by a lone male invillages bordering the Kabali National Park. Three

(16:26):
of those children attacked were torn apart, some of them partially eaten. And
because this one specific male was aprolific killer, he was nicknamed Saddam,
and he was finally hunted down andkilled after killing his seventh child Geese.
Yeah, but according to everything Icould find, Saddam was atypical because most

(16:48):
attacks seemed to be like somewhat opportunistic, not repeated specific attacks on human children.
Yeah. I mean this thing waslike a serial killer, like,
oh my god. Yeah, heserially killed human children. Oh my god.
And then in two thousand and two, at Gombe Stream National Park in
Tanzania, which is the infamous placewhere Jane Goodall conducted her chimpanzee work,
an adult male chimp stole and killeda child. And then two thousand and

(17:12):
five, back in Uganda near theBodongo Forest Reserve, there were four recorded
chimpanzee attacks on children, with oneof those being fatal. So this has
been building to where we now comeback to twenty fourteen with the Samata family.
The mother of the family, NetagekaSamata, was outside her home with

(17:33):
four of her young children on Julytwentieth of twenty fourteen. She was digging
in a garden and turned briefly toget some drinking water for her children,
and she didn't notice the large chimpanzeenearby who had been watching and waiting,
And when she turned her back,the chimp grabbed the arm of her two
year old son, Mujuni. Theboy screamed, which got the attention of

(17:55):
other villagers, all of whom helpedNetageka try to chase down the chimp.
But because of their strength, thechimp gave m Junie fatal wounds very quickly.
His arm was torn off, hishead was damaged, and the chimp
opened his abdomen to tear out hiskidneys. The chimp stashed his body under
some grass, which is where hismother found him, and he was rushed

(18:17):
to a nearby medical center, butdied on the way. Why don't know,
I from what just the injuries alone. If it tore out his kidneys,
that makes me think it was tryingto eat him. I mean it
tore off his arm, ripped intohis at Oh my god. And this
had to all happen really quickly.If she was able to chase the chimp
down, yeah, retrieve her son'sOh my god. So after this horrific

(18:42):
tragedy, the family stayed in theirhome and erected a bamboo fence around their
property to try to keep the chimpsat bay. But the chimps would continually
come back and stare into their house, and this kept happening over months.
The chimps would come back, easily, climbed the flimsy fence, sometimes bang

(19:02):
on the family's walls, and juststare into their home. What did this
family do? I have no idea. And this poor mother and Netageka couldn't
garden anymore, and her children weresometimes her remaining children were sometimes too afraid
to even eat well. I wouldimagine so. Yeah. So, three
years after the death of Mjunie,the family abandoned their home for a rented
room three miles away where they hadno land but were safe from chimps.

(19:26):
And the mother remarks that, like, yes, we were safe from chimps,
but we essentially launched ourselves back intopoverty because now we have nothing to
show for it. Yeah. Sothe chimps, even after the family left,
continued returning to their old home,breaking some of the windows and just
staring into others as if confused whyit was now abandoned. One photographer set

(19:47):
up at the family's old home twomonths after they left and got pictures of
the chimps returning every day for aweek, and they would sometimes bang on
the walls of the home even thoughthe people had been gone, and the
photographer it seemed like the reflections inthe windows specifically agitated them. So I
have no idea why they specifically weretargeting this home and this family, and

(20:10):
there's probably other houses with windows inthe area. I doubt this is a
one family. Yeah, that's insane. So as of twenty nineteen, when
National Geographic released this story that we'retalking about, the attacks continued even after
this family left. So since twentyfourteen, since Majuni was killed, there
have been three more fatalities and halfa dozen injuries within this area in the

(20:34):
town of Mooho row Row. I'massuming I'm saying that correctly. I'm assuming
not. It spelled m u hr ro mouhoo row row right. It's
better than I could ever do.Thank you so much, so sorry.
So on May eighteenth, in twentyseventeen, Maculate Racundo was a toddler at

(20:57):
the time and was in a cornfieldher mother. As her mother was farming,
a group of chimpanzees grabbed Maculate andtook off. Her mother ran after
the chimps, but they intimidated herinto backing off, so she ran to
get help. A group of localsand the town police searched for Maculate and
found her in a patch of forest. She was in a pool of blood

(21:17):
and her gut had been torn openand her intestines had been spilled. So
obviously did not survive this encounter.But once again, it seemed like that
all happened really really fast. Whatthe fuck? Why do we have to
do it like so brutally? Iknow, and so just five weeks later,
in an eerily similar fashion, potentially, the same group of chimpanzees grabbed

(21:40):
a one year old boy from anearby garden plot as his mother was gardening
and made a break for a patchof forest. But this time a group
of villagers pursued and got the chimpsto drop the boy, who suffered a
deep cut on his left leg butsurvived the ordeal. But police reported that
there were six other kids in thetown that town alone that had been killed
by chimps around them this time Jeez. And then in twenty eighteen, a

(22:03):
five month old was grabbed off ofa verandah while her mother was in the
kitchen. And this is all likein the same area within Uganda that I'm
talking about right now. So themother heard her daughter's cries and made lots
of noises chasing the chimps, andthey eventually dropped the girl and she was
found unconscious in a nearby bush wherethey had stashed her, but she survived.
Wow. And then in another instancethat same year, a three year

(22:25):
old girl was at a water wellwith her friends when a male chimp came,
scared her friends off, and thenran away with her. Luckily,
in this case, an elderly manhappened to be nearby and managed to scare
the chimps enough that they dropped thegirl, and she too survived. But
then again in a nearby village thesame year, this time a twelve year
old boy was grabbed by a chimpwhile he was in a garden, so

(22:47):
like significantly older than a toddler now, and he too survived, but suffered
a deep wound to his arm whenhe struggled to free himself. And then,
oh, my God, Jesus,there's so many more, and there
is a story of I'm not surewhen this attack happened either, but as
of the twenty nineteen release of thenat GEO article, she was older,

(23:07):
but her name was Teddy attuher whowas four years old at the time when
this incident happened, but so shehad been four. She was living in
the Mukichanga village and she was atthe time alone in her home while her
mother was out, and a chimpentered her home. It dragged Teddy into
a tree, where it made agash on her head, broke her arm

(23:29):
and mutilated it badly before dropping herout of the tree. So she survived,
but her arm was so badly mangledthat it had to be amputated,
and since then, both of herparents have died. Her remaining siblings have
either died or left, leaving herwith just aunts to care for her,
and she's had to work occasional oddlabor jobs, which obviously is not easy
with one existing arm. No,I imagine not yeah. And the most

(23:55):
recent attack I found occurred in Marchof twenty twenty three. Two month old
a Roho Ahumuza and her family livedin Kagati, which is a town in
western Uganda. A Roho was inher mother's arms when a chimp ran up,
pulled her out of her mother's arms, and ran off. Her mother

(24:17):
screamed for help and neighbors ran overto join her and search for her daughter,
and a Roho was found with serioushead injuries and was rushed to the
Kagati Community Health Center, but unfortunatelywas pronounced dead a few hours later.
And the town of Kagati is closeto the Kibali National Park, which is
home to the highest number of chimpsin all of Africa, which is one
thy five hundred and in Uganda asa whole, there was only five thousand

(24:41):
chimps, and in Uganda, chimpsare protected, meaning that you cannot kill
them regardless of whether or not itis in a protected zone. So like
if it's in a national park,can't kill them, even if it's outside
the national park coming at you.You can't kill them, even if it's
like a self defense something like justsorry, can't do it, yep,
fuck man. So this so thereare exceptions to this though in extreme cases,

(25:04):
like that chimp nicknamed Saddam that Imentioned earlier, they gave out a
permit to let him be killed becauseobviously he was like a serial killer of
human children. So and then alsoin this area, there are the Bunyuro
people and they are predominant in westernUganda, and they tend to see chimps
as like different from other animals anddon't view them as a food source at

(25:26):
all. So you've got like alocal culture who sets them apart from other
animals and doesn't want to generally killthem for like any reason. And then
you've got the government telling you thatyou can't kill them, which all makes
sense. But again, if it'sin a self defense thing, like if
it's kidnapping, when you're a kid, you should be able to do a
little bit more, which I don'tknow these people even had time to What

(25:47):
the fuck are you supposed to do? When yeah, I'm sure so fast?
Yeah, like what do you do? So, as you can imagine,
though, retaliatory killings do occur,or what some claim are defensive killings,
but chimps are in the area stillhunted illegally as bush meat, and
like I was saying earlier, oftenaccidentally caught in snares left for other animals.
So in Kabali National Park that Ijust mentioned, one third of all

(26:10):
of their chimps have injuries caused bysnares, including one male in the park
named Max, who lost both ofhis feet. To say, oh damn,
yeah, how does a chimpanzee keepmoving around with no feet? He
So there was a picture of him, so in the Natio article I can
link it. There was really starkpicture of him next to that girl Teddy

(26:32):
who lost her arm. So it'sa picture of him hanging in a tree
with no feet and her with onearm. So I'm assuming he just swings
around a lot on the trees.I yes, So clearly no one is
doing like everyone is suffering there likethe humans are suffering from the chimps,
chimps are suffering from the humans.This conflict between the chimps and the people

(26:52):
reminds me a lot of what wetalked about in episode seventy six with Rajeev,
where people in India are not allowedto kill tigers, leopards or l
but they're also left with literally nomeans to protect themselves. Yes, and
they're either losing their lives or losingtheir livelihoods and food to these animals that
the government is not helping them with. So the Uganda Wildlife Authority knows of

(27:14):
this ongoing conflict with chimps, anddespite the fact that chimps outside protected areas
obviously as well as the ones.But then national parks and reserves do fall
under the authorities responsibility, chimps inprivate forests don't, and they can't do
anything to stop the clearing of thesefew remaining private forest patches where the chimps
eke out a living and as ofnow, they're kind of just working in
the area to raise awareness of thisproblem and try to educate people on ways

(27:37):
to stay safe, so there's noway to prosecute people who are killing chimps
on like this land that's bought beforested. Well, I'm assuming like within
the national park they have rangers whoit's their job to seek out the poachers.
But I'm saying like on privately ownedland where forests are being cleared and
chimps live in those forests, thewildlife authority in Uganda can't protect those chips

(28:02):
dam. As you can imagine,this is a controversial topic because you have
cases like one boy named Ali whoin twenty nineteen, right before his second
birthday, was taken by chimps.The chimps nearly tore off his arm,
broke his fingers, and cut histhigh where his femoral artery was. And

(28:22):
this was just up the hill fromwhere the Samata family lived that I mentioned
in twenty fourteen. So the villagechairman, also the boy's uncle, said
it took Ali twelve hours to diefrom his injuries. When National Geographic reporters
spoke to the family, they saidinternational conservation groups come around and try to
convince them that chimps are beneficial tothe environment and are good to have around,

(28:45):
but Ali's uncle said, quote,we don't see any benefit. It's
killing our children fair, absolutely fair. That hard to argue with that.
Yeah, yeah, So as itstands now killing the chimps is not an
option because if we start killing endangeredspecies, when would we stop. And
relocation is also not an option becausethere's simply no habitat left. And then

(29:07):
also you can exactly like mix groupsof wild chimps with one another because they're
so aggressive. So for now,there are small projects attempting to manage the
situation, including reforestation projects, alternatesources of income rather than farming, installing
fuel efficient stoves that use less firewoodso less need to cut down trees,
creating borehole wells where women and childrencan safely gather water away from chimps,

(29:29):
and shade grown crops, which ifyou listen to our Earth Day Bonus episode
on Patreon recently, we talked abouta ton of reasons why you should support
things like shade grown coffee or chocolate, and this is another great example as
to why, because you could behelping people from being killed by chimpanzees.
So you know, food for thought, that's terrifying. It is that change
your entire whale life to make sureyou don't get dot by a fucking chimpanzee.

(29:52):
Yeah, damn yeah, on thatbright note, let's take a little
break for d Okay. So onthe flip side of those issues, you
also have the absolute idiots who,despite these horrifying stories I just told you,
think having a pet chimpanzee is agood idea. Dummies. So let's
get into a recent story from Oregon. Se Yeah, I like this because

(30:15):
we can make fun of these peoplefor being dumb exactly. Well, and
you know, I guess before wecontinue, Like we've talked about this before,
especially on the rhino episode that wedid, But like, I think
it's really easy to shit on poachersand you know, the ones that are
doing it for like commercialized reasons andthat are like are wealthy, Like yeah,
fuck those people. But like peoplewho are subsistence hunting for bush meat,

(30:37):
they are often like not able toaccess proteins. So like, I
understand the need to hunt, andit's not easy enough to just be like,
oh, well fuck those people.They shouldn't be doing this. Also,
it's Uganda. A lot of conflictgoing on in Uganda, and my
point is it's like not an easyissue to solve because it's like primarily a
human issue and a need for likebetter resources for the humans, and then

(30:59):
the chimps are just like an addedproblem. But then the chimps are also
facing their own problems because the humans. So it's not easy to fix.
And so it all sucks, iswhat you're saying. It all sucks,
and it seems like people are doingthe best they can with what they got.
But right now, I think thebig push is just to make people
in the area aware of ways thatyou can like mitigate the conflicts with chimps.
But I also don't blame the peoplefor not liking the chimps that are

(31:22):
killing their children. No, andwe've said that about damn near every animal
that we've talked about in this show. Like yeah, people who don't like
the tigers in India are like yeah, no shit, yeah, and then
the government's not helping you and they'relike, well that sucks, but you
can't shoot them. Yeah, sorryabout that. Here's you know, two
hundred bucks. Yeah exactly. Yes, you got to have any kind of
like baypack plan, like apology lumpsum, like if if you get got

(31:45):
by a chimpanzee. I couldn't findanything like that. Well, that sucks.
But also, once again, Ugandanot a very rich country, so
I don't know if they'd even havethe resources to pay people who Well then
also it's like okay, well thenthere's chimps, but there's also all the
other animals in Africa that could killyou. So like, do you get
paid if your family members killed byvenomous snake? I don't know. I

(32:06):
mean I would imagine not, butwho knows. Yeah, So another issue
that I mentioned briefly up top facingchimpanzees is the fact that young chimps are
stolen from the wild and sold intothe pet trade. And one of those
chimps we're gonna talk about now,Tamra Brogotti, and her family lived in

(32:27):
Pendleton, Oregon, with their petchimp, Buck, who as of twenty
twenty one, had been part oftheir family for seventeen years. As of
twenty ten, it is illegal toown exotic pets like chimps in Oregon,
but in some cases pets like Buckwere grandfathered in because Tamra had a permit
to own him before twenty ten.And just a note, so I said,
twenty ten is when that became illegal. Travis, the pet chimp mauled

(32:51):
Charlie Nash in Connecticut in two thousandand nine. So I'm thinking that,
like, maybe that legislation happened becauseof that attack on Charlie. I wouldn't
be surprised. I mean that wasa brutal one. Yeah, it should
have happened way before that. Yeah, we never should have got to the
point where you could own a chimpanzee, but here we are. So although
the family didn't use Buck for anyfinancial gain, like they didn't put him
on TV or anything, they justhad him as a pet, he was

(33:13):
still known to local authorities and wasknown by PETA. Oh great, so
local authorities had quote flagged the family'sproperty in their online system, noting that
there was a dangerous animal living onthe product can make me agree with PETA.
Are you please don't do that justa little bit, just in this
one instance. I'm sorry. They'renot wrong one hundred percent of the time,

(33:34):
just a lot of the time,but in this case they're not very
well Okay. So, in similarfashion to Travis the pet chimp, Tamra
used to bring Buck with her intotown when he was younger to run errand
so people knew him by name andPeta got involved because, despite the permission
from the state of Oregon to keepBuck, Tamara wasn't exactly following her permit's

(33:55):
rules. She would allow Buck toroam her ranch and walk around her home
like not contained at all, despitethe permit stating that the chimp would have
to stay caged, and there arevery specific dimensions for what the cages could
be. And there are pictures onsocial media of Tamra four wheeling with Buck
with her on her property. Andthere are also pictures which if you look

(34:16):
up this case online, like himeating at their table out of a bowl
with a spoon, him eating Chinesefood out of like a to go container.
So he was treated like a literalperson. Ye, just like Travis.
The pet chimp was also the VETlisted on the permit for Buck lived

(34:37):
almost two thousand miles away in Missouriand wasn't even licensed to practice an Oregon
I'm sorry, so I don't knowhow that got out of the government's view,
but sure, all right, SoPeta somehow found all this out.
And also Tamra was posting pictures onsocial media of Buck, so I think
that's probably how Peta like flagged thatthis was happening. So in April of

(35:00):
twenty twenty one, Peta told theState of organ about their concerns and about
the breeches to the permit and saidthat Buck was a ticking time bomb because
he had so much contact with humansbut never got to interact with other chimps.
Sir. So that all being said, let's get to June twentieth,
twenty twenty one. Oh no,which we just passed the anniversary. Oh

(35:20):
yeah. So Tamra, who wassixty eight at the time, was at
home with her fifty year old daughterwho is never named, and Buck at
this time was at least seventeen.I'm not clear on the age. That
was another thing Peter was mad about. They were like they lied about his
age in the permit. I don'tknow, but at this time he was
around two hundred pounds. Oh mygod. So Tamra has not given details

(35:43):
on what exactly happened that day,but she and her daughter were interacting with
Buck in some capacity where he waslike just walking around. When Buck attacked
Tamar's daughter. He bit her onthe thighs, the butt, the torso,
and her arms, but Tamra wasable to get her daughter away and
into the basement, away from Buckwho was left wandering on his own,

(36:07):
and the nine one one call wasreleased for this case. So I'm going
to edit a little bit so thatway I take out her address, but
I'm going to play the rest ofit here and we'll talk about it after
nine emergency directly across from the Theraf'sDepartment custom the Sheriff's department. We need

(36:29):
an ambulance and we need an armeddeputy. What's got my pet? Simpanzee
has attacked my daughter. She isbleeding previously, and the animal has to
be shot. It has attacked myfifty year old daughter. She needs an
ambulance. The ambulance cannot get toher because I've locked myself in the basement

(36:52):
with her. I can't get outto get my own done on the patio.
You're going to have to do aheadshot. Okay. Is she bleeding?
She's bleeding profusely, and she makesan ambulance. Oh yeah, he
got he did her. We've gotthem on the route right now. We're

(37:14):
sending a deputy right now. Hangon one second, okay, the more
than one because they ate. Ifthe age gets to drop on me,
he's gone. To we're sending,We're sending, We're sending Petalton as well.
There's no I've never seen anything likethis. He's got to be put
down. Okay, do you havepressure on the wounds she's trying. I'm

(37:36):
trying to guard her from a twohundred pound age, so I can't really
put pressure on it. Ma'am.I'm uh uh. You're both locked in
the basement. Correct, we're bothlocked in the basement. Yes, and
they've got to get to do aheadshot on the ape. Don't say,
oh, it's que that comes here. It will attack them. Oh boy,

(37:59):
oh boy. So it takes atotal of zero seconds to realize,
oh shit, I fucked up behindin this thing in my house. Like
when they pop off. It takesabsolutely zero time to go from this is
my cute cully pet to shoot thisthing in the head. Oh see.
That's the thing. Besides the factthat she was like so calm and also
sounded like annoyed at them, eventhough she is the one who brought this

(38:22):
chimp that attacked her own daughter.It's entirely her fault for owning this animal.
But like she was so calm.I guess I mean you tell she's
stressing, Like she is definitely stressed. I mean it almost feels like you
can hear like the door rattling inthe background too, Like I don't know
if you heard that, oh really, And it could have been from the
the nine one to one operator sideas well, So I don't know where
this tun was coming from, butit sounded like there was like a door

(38:44):
rattle going on there. Oh Ibelieve that. Oh my god, that
is fucking terrifying. Yeah, andI know, I thought it was interesting
how she called him like the ape. Yeah, like it wasn't Buck,
it was the ape. And alsoshe was like, don't think he's cute
and cuddly. It's like I don'tthink anyone who's gonna think that. No,
I mean you're calling nine one onefor a reason, like that thing's
getting shot, whether you want twoor not. Yeah. So an officer

(39:09):
did arrive, and there is bodycamfootage released of what happens, and I
watched it, so it's available onlineif you want to see it. You
don't see, it's like not graphic. I mean you do see and hear
him shoot Buck, But essentially whathappens is Buck is inside his enclosure,
just pacing around, not vocalizing aton which is very different from the Travis

(39:31):
the pet Chimp, because in thatnine one one audio you could definitely hear
Travis in the background, but inthis case, Buck was like generally kind
of quiet and just pacing and atone point you can like kind of hear
someone talk from the background. Sothe officer asks if anyone's there, to
which Tamra from the basement says yes, and she sounds like really clear.
So the basement did not seem veryfar away from this enclosure where Buck was,

(39:52):
and in an annoyed tone, shesays, I need you to shoot
him. Wow. It's one thingto be like hurry shoot him like my
daughter, but she was like shoothim. They get it over with,
yeah, pretty much. So theofficer did shoot Buck, killing him with
a shot to the head. Itonly took one shot per Tamra's request.
Good go for her, I guess, I mean, all right. Yeah.

(40:14):
So once Buck was dead, emergencypersonnel were able to escort her daughter
to the hospital and she's recovered sincethen with the help of physical therapy.
But in response to this, Tamrasaid things like, quote, my daughter
was losing blood. Emergency personnel neededto get to her. There were no
options, and she also said,quote, there was no pain. My

(40:36):
beautiful son folded forward and was withGod. There wasn't a twitch. He
just went to be with God.It was horrible, but it had to
happen. Okay, so these arenormal people, Okay, nothing nothing crazy
going on with these ones at all. Mm hmm okay, yeah, super
run of the mill. And shealso thanked the officer who shot Buck,
saying, quote, he sent Buckto heaven and saved my daughter. It

(40:57):
was a horrible thing that happened.For the rest of my life, I
will thank that man for what hedid. End quote. Wow. So
the reason I really like this episodetooting my own horn, I guess,
is like we started with people wholive around these animals in the wild where
the animals are supposed to be,and these people are suffering losing their children

(41:20):
because chimps come to take and oftentry to eat their children. And then
you have people here in America whothink they're cute and want them as pets
and invite them into their home.And if that is not like the perfect
juxtaposition, like these two stories oflike how delusional some of us can be
sometimes, like that is it?And then where they have no government to

(41:43):
help them, she just called Niamaone. That is a great point.
Yeah, the people in Uganda haveno government assistance to help them. I
mean, they do have police overthere that can like come try to help,
like save their children. But yeah, this woman invites a chimp into
her home and then puts the officers'lives at risk to fix the problem that
she started. I mean, mymy biggest thing is like they had this
show for how long seventeen years,fourteen years, almost seventeen years. Yeah,

(42:04):
and it again in a moment,just flip the switch, like kill
this thing, like right now,that's that's insane. That's insane. Yeah,
clearly it's not an anie we shouldbe having if he can flip on
it that quick. Yeah, Andlike I said, she didn't tell anybody
any details of like what exactly ledto the attack on her daughter. But
another thing that bothers me with likethis story and the Travis story, is
like it's never the person who ownsthe chimp. Yeah, it's never the

(42:28):
person who is directly responsible. It'salways somebody else that suffers. Yep,
you can't fucking control them? No, no, I mean, how many
people can't control their dogs and they'redomesticated, Like, yeah, so why
why are we throwing an ape intothe mix As we can control the apes,
don't worry about that. Hey yousee the new plan of the Apes
yet? No? It is it? Good? I haven't seen either.

(42:49):
Oh we should see it? Seeit? Yeah, Okay, have you
seen the other ones? Yeah?I didn't watch the other ones, I
think. Okay, well add thatto our list of movies. You know,
speaking of apes, there's a there'sa monkey door with The Explorer.
I'm just saying it's a live actiondoor that you want to watch. Yes,
it's the live action door The Explorer. It's hilarious. It's one of
the best movies of all time.It's very fun. Uh. And that's

(43:13):
us trying to decompress after people beingidiots and owning animals they shouldn't. It's
crazy. I mean, I don'tget it. Whenever I see like,
I feel like I get a lotof the shit on Instagram where it's like
people with big cats as pets.It's like you, yeah, dummies,
you dummies? Yeah? Yeah.So anyways, that was chimps is there

(43:34):
any any good tips for us tostay safe around the chimps if we ever
encounter them? Yeah, perfect,Nick, So if you're here in America,
don't own one and then you'll besafety. Pretty good advice actionally.
But if you want to go seechimps in the wild, because first of
all, if you're someone who livesaround chimps, I'm assuming there are way
better resources than me, a girlwho lives in the northeastern US, to

(43:59):
help you. I'm sure there arepeople there who have much better advice if
you're living around these animals. Butyou can go to Uganda and one of
the big popular touristy things to dois go on to what they call chimpanzee
treks, where you go into likeKibali National Park and try to seek out
the chimps. But to do thatyou need to get a permit from the

(44:21):
government to go interact with them.But from what I understand, the permit
is mostly like to limit time betweenyou and the chimps for zoonotic disease reason,
not so much like aggression. Reason. Is that a healthy good way
to do it? Or are wesupporters of doing events like that? The
conservationist to me is like I know, seeing animals in the wild or like

(44:45):
seeing an animal in person is usuallythe thing that can get people to care
more about them and care more abouttheir conservation. But in this case,
I feel like we should just leadthem the fuck alone. I'm so down,
give them connected pieces of forest,and just like not interact with them
more than we have to. Yeah, and just let them be. Don't
got tell meat twise I again,they fucking terrify me. Yeah, And

(45:09):
I can't imagine that all Taurus areper our last episode Torons. I can't
imagine that all Taurus are like respectfuland good about being around chimpanzees or gorillas.
So I couldn't find any stories aboutlike people getting hard like Taurus getting
harmed by chimps, because I thinknaturally, when all is going well and
they have plenty of resources, theywill just avoid people like most wild things

(45:32):
do. But you know, incases like the villages I was talking about
where they had like no food,that's what it becomes bad. Yeah,
are there any any case of agorilla's going nuts on people? Have you
ever looked into that? Besides likeHarambe in the Zoo, which also wasn't
his fault rip to a legend hadto be done, It had to be
done over. I don't know.I didn't look into that well period.

(45:58):
Yeah. But also like I thinkgorillas in general are more like because of
the social structure of gorillas, Ithink that they are generally more calm and
have like less conflict than chimpanzees.They're more mate mate triarch, the moms
are more in charge the women.The women rule. No, I don't
think that as much as like chimpanzeecommunities, there's a lot of males,

(46:22):
but they're all like competing for thefemales, so there's a lot of like
sexual competition, whereas gorillas there's likeone main male who does most of the
mating, so there's not as muchtension between all the males to like father
the most. So yeah, theydon't need to be as aggressive. Gotcha.
Yeah that's it. Word. Thanksfor being here. I missed you.

(46:42):
Thanks for having me anytime. Well, if you want more from me
slash us check out Patreon you getbonus episodes and other stuff. Check out
our website gettlepodcast dot com, whereyou can buy merch which if you're watching
any clips from this video. I'mwearing one of our Orca shirts and we're
gonna have new merch soon with thenew logo for that and stickers with the

(47:07):
new logo. Was that a yawn? That was a yawn? I'm so
sorry. I can't believe I justdid that in the middle of you talking.
Wow, you're you're not seasoned anymore. No, I'm not exhausted.
Then we'll just wrap up. Ifyou want to find us on social media,
check out the links Nick is andon social media. I never has
no that's good. Thank you toour nope, my he's my friend.

(47:30):
Thank you to my good friend andsecond grade husband, Josh Walsh, maker
into music before. It's true youwere in his basement. Yeah wait,
okay, well hang on, JesseWalsh his brother. We're also in his
basement with him because he was doingaudio editing stuff. So thank you Jesse
for all that. If you wantmore information on them, also check out
our website. That's it cool.We'll be back in two weeks with a

(47:52):
new animal attack story.