March 26, 2025 • 48 mins
On February 14th, the Trump Administration wrongfully terminated tens of thousands of probationary federal employees. For all of these employees, their termination was blind-siding and life changing. Even though this episode was recorded before some recent changes, there is still so much up in the air. In Part 2 to this episode next week, we'll give updates on Alex and Cheyenne, and get more into what Reduction in Force means.
Where to find Alex:
Instagram: @n8ture_al
LinkedIn: Alex Troutman
Bluesky: @n8ture_AL
You can find Alex's "Critters of" pocket field guides online here, where you can search for different states.
Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, Tiktok, check out our website GetOutAlivePodcast.com and join us on Patreon (where you can now follow us for free)!
Support the show for free by subscribing and leaving a 5-star review wherever you're listening, or on GoodPods or Podchaser (where we can respond to your comments).
You can find Ashley @TheAngryOlogist on Twitter, @ashleytheologist on Bluesky
Where to find Alex:
Instagram: @n8ture_al
LinkedIn: Alex Troutman
Bluesky: @n8ture_AL
You can find Alex's "Critters of" pocket field guides online here, where you can search for different states.
Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, Tiktok, check out our website GetOutAlivePodcast.com and join us on Patreon (where you can now follow us for free)!
Support the show for free by subscribing and leaving a 5-star review wherever you're listening, or on GoodPods or Podchaser (where we can respond to your comments).
You can find Ashley @TheAngryOlogist on Twitter, @ashleytheologist on Bluesky
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Welcome to episode ninety three of Get Out Alive, a
podcast about animal attacks, why they happen, and how we
can avoid them. This is a special episode. If you're
a longtime listener, you know how often we talk about
America's national parks, and more often than not, in those
attack stories, park service workers are some of the first
people to respond and give aid. As you're probably aware,
(00:45):
there are so many more for service Park USA employees,
and so many more that provide public services that we
all benefit from. I am a former federal USDA Animal
and Plant Health Inspection Service employee. It was my first
job out of college, and without that job, I wouldn't
have most of the things that I have today. In
my time there, I help people who are experiencing problems
(01:06):
with wildlife and my coworkers, and I monitored for diseases
like avian influenza and rabies, and we even vaccinated wildlife
against rabies. The reason I'm talking about this is because
currently in the United States, federal employees are under attack
by the Trump administration. Since Valentine's Day this year. In February,
tens of thousands of federal employees who were on probationary
(01:28):
status were wrongfully and illegally terminated due to the Department
of Government Efficiency also known as DOGE, headed by Elon Musk.
For some reason, these terminations did not just affect the
Park Service for service in USDA, it's everything the federal government,
including the Department of Education, who is tasked with eliminating
half their workforce, the Department of Veterans Affairs who needs
(01:51):
to cut eighty thousand employees, and the Social Security Administration,
whose employees were offered buyouts. A very twenty six memo
from President Trump told federal agencies to identify quote statutorily
mandated functions and seek to achieve five things. Number one,
better service for the American people. Number two increased productivity.
(02:15):
Three a significant reduction in the number of full time
equivalent positions by eliminating positions that are quote unquote not required,
a reduced real property footprint, and number five reduced budget
top line. As you may be aware, especially if you
are in the environmental or wildlife field, many agencies are
(02:36):
already underfunded and understaffed. As much as it may not
seem like it, Sometimes the federal government is meant to
serve us the people. National parks and forests belong to
all of us and are some of very few public
spaces left for us, and America's wildlife and wildlife is
held in the public trust, meaning the state and federal
governments may manage the wildlife for us, but America's wildlife
(02:59):
belongs to all all of us. Less employees to manage
our public spaces and our wildlife is detrimental to us.
All we are in what's being coined the sixth extinction,
which is the current extinction event we are in, being
primarily driven by humans. Current extinction rates are one hundred
to even one thousand times pre human levels. At this point,
(03:20):
a fourth of all species in the world are estimated
to go extinct by twenty fifty. Since nineteen seventy, we
have lost thirty nine percent of land based species, thirty
nine percent of marine species, and seventy six percent of
all freshwater animal species. In the time that you listen
to this entire podcast episode, over nine thousand humans will
(03:44):
be born and we will lose three species. We do
not have the luxury of moving backwards. Twenty fifty is
only twenty five years away. We need all the time
and resources we can get to preserve our natural environment.
Everything that you have, that you eat, that you drink
is either grown from the ground or as mind, everything
(04:04):
comes from the environment. If you're listening to this podcast,
it's probably because you're interested in wildlife for nature in general.
So I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but we
cannot allow our federal government to act against us and
act against our land and our wildlife because I want
to do anything I can to help. In this episode
and our next episode, I will be sharing stories from
some of those federal employees who were wrongfully terminated. We'll
(04:28):
hear the work that they were doing, the nature of
their termination, and where we stand now. Today. We're going
to start by hearing from Alex Troutman, a former environmental
protection specialist with the National Park Service. Alex is one
of the employees who received a letter of termination on
February fourteenth. This is his story.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yeah, So my name is Alex Troutman, my pronoils are
he young is, and I'm from Austelle, Georgia. I study biology, birds, wetlands,
butterflies pretty much. I like to call myself a cult
tit biologist because all of my species and qualities are
(05:18):
kind of cooled together. I'm not really focusing on one
like type of species or one type of habitat all.
My work has allowed me to work in many different
habitats and work with many different species, even work in
many different states as well as a few countries as well.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
That's so cool. With other countries have you worked in?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
So I did research for bats in Malaysia only I'm
island of Borneo. I was there for about two roughly
two months, so I'm doing bad research. And dabbled a
little bit and and leaf litter studies, but most of
the research for bats. And then I did a couple
(06:04):
like really, I mean it's not really a lot, but
a simple electro fishing for some fresh water fish in Australia.
Just a form of like a demonstration accounts that's still work.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
I guess that.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Counts so cool. Well, how did you end up in Malaysia? Like?
How did that opportunity present itself?
Speaker 2 (06:25):
It was something that almost didn't happen. It was right
in between undergrad and trying to figure out my life.
I saw a position on text am job board. The
old version. I'm not really I'm familiar with IM. I
don't like the new version. The old version was better anyways.
On text am job board, I saw it and then
(06:49):
it was a position. It said for early career scientists.
But I really didn't consider myself at that stage because
I had been out of my undergrad for almost two
year years.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
So I didn't apply to it. And then a couple
of friends sent me I'm like, hey, you should apply,
and I was like, all right, well, if everyone's saying
to me, let me apply and I see what it's about.
So I applied.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
When I got the position, the position was for a
small mammal like team league, so I was like, okay, yeah,
I'll apply to it. I did some small mental work
and undergrad, working with one of our grad students, I'm
looking at early successional habitat use by old phil mice
before and after fires, and so I applied.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
I got it. A couple of weeks later.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
I was like, oh, like, we're starting to tell you
like funny fell through for a small mountain project, so
we switched you to the bat team.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Is that okay? And I was like, oh yeah, Like
I'm not going to turn up the opportunity to one
way for that accident, go do research on the other
side of the world. So I was like, yeah, I'll
still do it. So yeah, it's just a lot of
people like encourage me to apply and not letting my
own imposters syndrome get into my head as well. So
(08:08):
that's what led me on other side of the world
map whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
So cool. So how has your relationship with nature been
throughout your life? Like, were you always one of those
kids I was outside turned over rocks looking at birds
and stuff, or.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Yeah, it's like nature husband in my life, like from
the time I was born, Like I used to go
fishing with my brothers, uncles and dad. I was lucky
that my family actually had like we own our home
and have like Atlanta. I think it's somewhere between like
a little over a quarter to just over a half
(08:45):
acre or so, but it has a creak in the back,
and I would spend a lot of my childhood like
fishing back there building somewhat like a down and then
like looking for water lizards, which are salamanders. At the time,
I know where they were. I just saw that there
was looked like lizards and it was body of water,
so we call it water lizards. So me and my
(09:06):
friend I would do that for most of our days,
like after school in elementary school.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
And then around the same time, like.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I was getting interested in Stee Warren, Jeff Corn, Jack Handa,
all the great conservationists and wildlife people. I man like
I knew I wanted to do something in nature and
work with wildlife, I really didn't know in what capacity.
Undergrad I switched my major from biology pre vet to
(09:39):
Middle RaSE Education minor an biology. That during that time
I took two field classes field orientology and then mammology
study of birds and then study of mammals. And I
had two great mentors or well professors that they're my
mentors now who are leading those classes, who like the
(10:00):
show not only a passion for what they were doing son,
but also a passion for us and make sure that
we were actually learning. And that's why I realized, like, oh,
like I can do research and be outside and work
with animals and also potentially get paid to do it.
So like I switched my major back to biology and
with a focus in wildlife management.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
And it was during that time that I also found
out that like all the time like I was outside,
like looking and listening at birds and four birds, that
I was doing something called birding or bird watching.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
I didn't know what it was.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
I just knew I liked redtail hall so.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Like Sinel then so taking orthology, like I fell in
love with the most beautiful duck on the wood duck.
And after that, like I was doing how to do
it for class, Like, well, let me just continue burdening
and see what it's about.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
And I was hooked.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah, I've been following you for years now, and I
think that's how I first found you, was through birding.
And then I was like, also, his last name is Troutman,
which is the perfect name for a biologist. I'm sure
you get that.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
All the time, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I was destined for her. Yeah, yeah, it's funny. Everyone
asked me like, do you like to fish? And then
they're like, oh, you must work with fish.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
She was.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Up until last year, I haven't worked with fish. It
wasn't until like I got the fellowship that I actually
started doing some fish work. And like it was it
was a runny joke with me and some of my
like friends. One of my other mentors, he was like,
you should go your whole life and never work with fish.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Yeah. I enjoyed it, so.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
How has your job journey been post graduation and how
did it lead you to the most recent job that
you had.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Yeah, So after graduation, I they got a job or
an internship with the Student Conservation Association and America Corps.
And there I was a park ranger for Allegany County,
which is Pittsburgh and they have nine county parks and
like my team was a corpse team, so we was
(12:20):
broken up into two different teams, the North County in
South County and I was in the South County.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
So I helped manage five with Accounting parks.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Did that for just over a year, and most of
our job was to just get people to one know
more about the green spaces that they have with the
accounting parks and then actually utilize it and then like
do programming. So I did a lot of nature hikes,
led boy Scouts and went to the school group, talked
(12:50):
about pollinators, did defense mechanism hikes, did some owl and
bat hikes as well.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
So I did that for about a year.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
And that's kind of why I figure out that I'm
good at communicating science.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Before that, like I liked science and talking about animals,
but I didn't realize like how good I was at it,
and also that could actually do it because I really
didn't like talking. I was a little shy, but that
made me do it. After that job, I went home
and worked with Atlanta at Georgia Aquarium as an educator
(13:26):
for both of those different organizations, leading school groups throughout
the aquarium and talking about different conservational issues. And then
at the aquarium also leading school groups, but also doing
like overnight events where you can like stay at the
zoo and do night like ventures around the zoo and
see some animals and utilize like some are night vision
(13:49):
goggles to see like I caught it leopard at most
of the time was hiding that we could see it.
So I did that for about roughly I.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Guess around eight or nine months, and then I finally
got a job with the federal government after like applying
for years or almostly two years from the time I
graduated to actually finally get an interview and then getting
a job. But I got a job with a fishing
wild Life service and New Richmond, Wisconsin, like it's a
(14:24):
smaller town that even people from Wisconsin don't know where
it's at, but it's on the border of Minnesota and Wisconsin,
but I went up there did habitat management work, and
the main focus was doing habitat management and restoration for
a small butterfly called the corner blue butterfly. It's a
(14:45):
dangerous species that used to be throughout the whole state
of Wisconsin and even leading into some of the Eastern
and North Eastern states, but now it's like have different
hot spots throughout those states. It's extra paid or locally
as stink in the region. So I did that for
about a year and then applied for a position with
(15:08):
the National Park Service doing seaturt work, on which I
really didn't think I was gonna get in my mind,
like I never started I would work with sea turtles
because at that time I wasn't going on the boat
out in the middle of the ocean to look for them,
and I didn't think that they would come up to me.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
So then I started working with sea turtles. Fell in
love with the best sea turtles, the Kim's Radley sea turtles.
They're my favorite because they're they're kind of like me there.
They're misfit, not really under understood, and then they just
like break out all the like social norms like sea turtles.
They folks to the nests at night, but the Kim's
(15:50):
ray they never sturing the day.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
They're the smallest sea turtle species. And then they also
one one of a few groups that nests or nesting
like large groups caravadus. So I did that work for
two different seasons and then I left and went to
Borneo and did bat work. Finished my season and like
(16:12):
June like eighth and June tenths, I was heading to
Borneo on like things like the first fight was like
eighteen hours or so, and then had to find another
like eight or so hours, then like a three hour
of ride. But yeah, so I did Borneo. I did
batwork in Borneo and that was pretty cool. We were
(16:36):
doing batwork in the one of the national parks there,
looking at like species occurrence in abundance, just trying to
document some of the species that was in that area.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
It was rough, hard work at first, it was a lot,
but it was it was good.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
From what I know of Borneo, never been but I've
heard that it's pretty hot and humid, so I can
imagine it was tough.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Oh yeah, yeah, it's definitely very humid and hot. But
thankfully there are rain showers there because it's a rainforest.
But yeah, it's it's definitely like being in like the
swamps of Louisiana.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
I'm from Georgia.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
It's very human here, but bornio humidity, it's different. They
also have a lot of different interesting creatures. They have
land leeches that you have to work where you out from.
They look like inchworms and calibers where they're actually leaches
and they like fight through your socks and stuff. They're
pretty cool. And then oh my god, yeah it's intense.
(17:38):
But did that for two months and then literally like
landed and I spent like three days at home and
went hopped on the boat that's in dangerous wee s
observer off the coast so max Hatta, North Carolina, and
lived there for about two weeks. Then went home and
stayed there for a day and drove all the way
to Galveston, Texas and helped on different boat and stay
(18:01):
there for about four months on getting off to drive
to a newport and getting back home back. During that time,
I was doing an endangered species observer work, so looking
for marine mammals and watching out for you as the
boat is completing the dredging activity for beach new renewishment
(18:22):
or widening and shipting channels.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
So we making sure the both wasn't running into.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Any marine mammals that were in danger, like the right
well start digging up any marine mammal or other danger.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Species like sea turtles on selfish. So that was a
lot of fun. Got to see a lot of cool
on sea creatures that I haven't seen before. And then
I did that for roughly I.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Don't know, like three, three or four months, and then
I got into grad school, which is a huge like
story in itself. So anyways, I did that when to
grad school and worked with the NPS for two months.
I'm doing grad school doing biological science work in Manasas, Virginia,
(19:10):
doing a lot of deer. Were all study building gear
exclusion defenses for sensitive plants, habits, had measurement plans for
Hensol sparrow and Bob whitequill as well as I'm doing
surveys for both of them, and did that for two months,
and then went back to grad school did my master's
(19:31):
project with the count Kents.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Really with the Seaside sparrow, seaqure.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
The turtles are stuck in my head, but did work
with the seaside sparrow looking at their nestlinge diets and
was available to them on the Tittle Marshes in South Georgia.
So I did that for two summers and then I
got a job with the Fish wild Life Service as
(20:00):
a biological science technician working and Ulula River in Louisiana,
back on Tensaw River National Waldlarfe Refuge.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
It was just like an eighty eight thousand and acre refuge.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
So I did that from July or twenty twenty one
to January twenty two, and then took a break while
I was waiting to get convered over into a permanent
position with the Fish and wild Life Service, and I
got converted over in April and did that for a
year as a part lands biologist in South Georgia. So
(20:34):
I did that for roughly almost a year nine months,
and then I got awarded the Kenos Marine Policy Fellowship
and left and did that fellowship for a year, and
I was placed in a Fishing Wildlife division, so obviously
executive assistant to the division. It was great experience and
(20:57):
just need a lot of different fish biology as some
of the fish bologists were also people of color and
they were just kid of great examples as well, and
someone like they've been in the service for so long
but haven't yet had a chance to work with another
like black biologists as well. So it was a little
good experience. And then that brings us back to twenty
(21:20):
twenty four when I left the position as on the
EXECU assistant. Once I finished my Canoe schellowship, I applied
for the position back at home as an environmental protection
specialist with the National Park Service, and I was really
looking forward to it because it was bringing me back home.
The Georgia National Park unit was right up the street
(21:43):
from my house, within like twenty miles. I was okay
like his homes in Atlanta, and a supervisor seemed pretty
good on meta biologists and like I was doing that work.
I was the environment protect specialist for the park, but
also the Georgia Department their transportation and liaison. So with
(22:03):
that I not only did the newook compliance for the part,
but also helped with a nebook compliance and acted as
an animediary between the National Park Service units that were
in Georgia and the Georgia Department of Transportation.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
So that's how I got there a lot.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Well, but like you have had the career that's so
many widelife biologists dream of, where like I get to
travel all over the country in the world, just like
studying different things. Like you have a great resume to
do literally whatever you want. That's amazing.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Well thank you, yeah, yeah, hopefully all listen out there. Wow.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Well yeah, So speaking of the whole reason that we're
talking about this, So what happened, Like you were terminated
from your position that you had just received last year
with the National Park Service. How did that go down?
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeah, it was very like unfortunate and like blindsiding because
one like I mentioned that my job was working as
the Georgia Department of Transportation liaison, so they actually funded
my position, Like all my money is already allocated not
just for this year, but for at least the next
(23:22):
four years, and it's already had been sent to the
park and was in a bank. So by getting rid
of me, the government is not getting any more money,
they're not spending any more money, like they're not saving anything.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
The money had already been allocated for my position.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
And with that, man said, like for the longest time
going back and forth, like after the first execon order
came out, I was like, I asked my super.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
I was like, am I safe?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
And she's like, yeah, Like, your money isn't funded by
the government government, it's already in the bank, so you
should be good. So I would I said question every
couple every couple of days because the new things were
coming out, and I was like, all right, am I
really good? Like you masked the g DOT coordinator, It's like, yes,
your money is provided by states already been there, so
(24:14):
you should be fine.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
At least some are in with g DOT. I said okay.
And then around on the thirteenth, like I went on
vacation and I.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Just asked again to be sure. I was like like,
is everything okay. It's like, yes, you're fine. You shouldn't
have to worry.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
And then on the fourteenth, while I was on vacation,
I heard like a lot of people got terminated. So
I reached out to my super. I was like, hey,
what is this, Like, Am I on the list? Am
I on the list? And she's like, oh, I haven't
heard anything as of yet, so that could be a
good sign. Since I haven't heard anything, so I was like, okay,
(24:57):
it sounds good.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
And then like that she followed with like I heard
through the grape vine that there's a chance that there
will be another like cut on Tuesday. So like hearing
that on Monday, I made a decision to like just
drive back up our drive back from Florida and in
my vacation early because I'd rather like get it in
(25:21):
person instead of like having to worry about it for
the next couple of days. I drove back up Monday
forgot something and had to go back to Florida that
night and.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Turn back around and drive up. So I ended up.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Technically left around two thirty pm. That we didn't get
back home until five o'clock in the morning on Tuesday,
so I had been up for a full twenty four
hours and open up my computer just to like answer
some emails and think, like if I'm going to get
an email, i'll probably be later today that I open
it up, and it was answering emails and it was
(25:59):
like seventh one down on Friday the fourteenth, and it
was like basically like, oh, you've been terminated, And I
was like what, So I like sent to my supervisor like, oh,
like I got Nicks, and like that's all I can say,
Like I got nig It was like so like find
sighting like what they didn't even like send like any
information or they didn't include my supervisor park superintendent.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
On the letter. It was just sent to me. So
it was just like frustrate. So she didn't know anything
about it.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
That's crazy. So who did you get the email from?
Like did you even recognize the sunder?
Speaker 3 (26:37):
I did not know.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
This person came from the definitely director of the well
the acting deputy director of the National Parks Service. And
I never had any contact with this individual at all,
never heard their name. They sent their email and it
was because I was approachenationary employee.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
And they also say that before I failed to approve
my performances adequate in my progretionary phase, which again I
never heard this person. They never did any type of
evaluation on me, like they don't even know my name.
And the fact that like the email they sent was
(27:22):
clearly a cookie killer email that was mass produced and
they just changed your name, your park and then the dates.
But yeah, it was crazy.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
So the letter did it say, like you know, I
saw the letter that you post on Instagram. It does
seem like the letter everyone else that got terminated got
so like what So if you started last year, when
was your probation up?
Speaker 3 (27:50):
My probation would be up on in June.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
So the thing is like I switched from the official
wild Life Service and only had like two months of
probationary pier left, and then why left from the fishing
will less areas to take the fellowship that like councilors
everything out. But even if I would have stayed and
did that, like complete that probationary period with the ficial
(28:18):
wal Life Service, since I left to a new agency,
I still would have to restart it.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
You know, I have worked with the Department Interior several
other times.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
So but anyways, I would have been up June sixteenth
would have been my probationary period, so a little over
four months.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Yeah, And I guess for people who might not be familiar,
could you explain what that probation period is and like
what it's.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
For depending on your position, it's either a year long
or two years alone period or basically there make sure
you have you're good enough to work there, you have
good conduct on your performances, it's up to par and
you don't have any disciplinary actions. And if you complete
(29:04):
that full year or two years without any actions, I'm
guarantee your status and I have to like go through
another coperate orationary phase. And since you're a stable employee,
whenever you leave an agency or sometimes depending on the position,
it's switched to a different position, you have to go
through like a trial period. So like for other jobs
(29:26):
it's ninety days or so, but with the government, it's
a year or two years, And it doesn't really take
an account like how long you have worked for the government,
even though the Department of Interior like over house several
different agencies.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
So a position that you're talking about with the Park Service,
this was a permanent position.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
This one was a turn position for four years, but
it was hoped to be permanent eventually. The work that
I was doing is pretty much a central to the park.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Yeah, And I mean so I was a former term
employee too at the federal government with the USDA, And
it can be confusing because so I was like term
on four years, and similar to your job, it's like, yeah,
if we still have funding after the four years, then
we like renew you. So it's kind of like your
permanent employee, like as long as the funding is there.
But like you were saying if it's a necessary position,
(30:21):
very likely you're going to have the funding to keep going.
So it's not like this was even just some like
seasonal job, like this could have been your career.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah, yeah, I definitely cared our career. And like I
mentioned before, like the funding was already there for at
least four years. So like now that money is just
Center Bank being wasted since yeah, like I'm not working
only there and not going to hire.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
Anybody else to do it. Talk about wasting money there
you go.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Literally that's the definition of wasting the money it was
allocated for this thing, and they're like, never mind where
it's just gonna let it sit there and not have
the work done. Like that doesn't make any fucking sense.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
Yes, not at all.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
God, So, like we were talking about before we started
recording last night, so today we're recording this on March fourteenth.
Last night, judges I believe in California and some other
state that I can't think of right now, ruled that
this type of termination that the Department of Government Efficiency
whatever determined like this was not legal the way that
(31:24):
you and many other people like you were fired. So
what is do you have an update what's going on?
Are you going to be reinstated? Do you have any idea?
Speaker 2 (31:36):
I mean right now, I don't really have like an update.
I reached out on to my park, as other people
have reached out as well, like we're not really sure
what it means. Because while that judge did rule like
technically in our favor, the question is like if it
was uphill and we were reinstated, we were not really
(31:59):
sure like how long we would be reinstated because the
goal is to get rid of at least thirty percent
or more of the federal workforce. And now this sess
to me like it says that we were fired illegally.
Now just it just like they can reinstate US and
then now actually go through a proper reducing for us
(32:23):
on RIF and you actually say, okay, you have thirty
and sixty days notice that you're going to lose your job,
which is on what they're supposed to do if they're
gonna perform on Ril. So now that that's where we are,
we're it's still like we're not sure what's happening, looking
for jobs, trying to figure out what's that. And then
(32:46):
someone us like are following like trying to get unemployment
that we can because we are waiting for our documents
and a lot of people have been let go, so
there's nobody to provide those documents are back their back hill.
And then unfortunately the MELI system is going through a
crisis as well, thank god.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
So yeah, we're not sure.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
And then like are not able to get unemployment because
for some stakes you can't have like it be your
follow or performance issue and unfortunate that's what the letter
says for some people.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
So that's issue too. And you got to like appeal.
It's a lie.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Wow, I didn't even think of that. That's evil.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
Yeah, it's a lot.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Wow. So you said that you're, you know, applying for jobs.
What can other people do to like advocate for people
like you who have been wrongfully terminated.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah, definitely calling your representative senators and fighting for them.
And then there's a couple of different acts that are
going through. One of them is the merit At that
is encouraging like Congress and to get involved in get
us reinstated. And I believe that's why represent the modl
(34:07):
Milk or Lawer Milk. That's the Merry Act that you
can call your congress people about and try to help
them support it also like standing up telling them to
actually have a backbone would be more like Al Green
of Texas and stand up to the administration and us
(34:31):
even if you at one time support this administration that
you realize now that you don't anymore. Like make sure
you voice that concern and tell your congress people and
even your films like this, this is not okay. On
what's happening, and participate in the economic boycott. So right
(34:53):
now there's one on Amazon today. Pretty much every Friday
throughout the year, there's a boycott owned many large businesses
and utilizing their credit cards.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
That just basically hitting them where it hurts and donald
that's their pockets.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Also one more thing, it's a pretty conceived notion by
some people that government employees are.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
Lazy and do not deserve their checks.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
One of them is a congress person from Georgia, but
not realizing that she also is a governmental in federal worker.
But yeah, but anyways, speaking from the National Park Service
and Fish Wial Life Service aspect of it, like there
are people who are who were terminated wrongfully by this
(35:50):
administration who are literally volunteering their time helping to continue
the work that they were doing with dangerous cycs because
they know that without them there, it's detrimental to those species.
But even before like all this, the National Park Service,
US Sociality Service has been heavily underfunded, and we were
(36:13):
doing double duty in many different places like the refuge
on that work that that was eighty eight thousand acres,
there were roughly six employees that was managing that refuge, and.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
Of those six, only three of them were like full
time employees. So hold your tongue if you're going to
say for the employees excusually are are lazy and we
don't deserve our tech like we're doing so much work.
We're even doing more work.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Them we possibly could for not even an equal amount
of pay that other people would be getting as well.
So it's it's ridiculous. So jail, don't don't say for
employees are lazy. If you're some want to say that,
actually correct feel and tell like all we're doing and
(37:09):
what we take care of and just for instance, National
Park Service we bring in roughly like around like fifty
five billion dollars of money for the US and that's
through fees from visitors, but also local economies like gateway
(37:30):
towns or towns that are alone or just right outside
of national parks. And yet we spend less money that
we bring in that much revenue, So it would be
wise to actually fund us and keep us there. And
I don't even know where this is gonna go as
(37:52):
we continue to lose for employees, Like there's National park
services that are already counseling, like tour there's some they're
closing on Mondays for the rest of the year because
they don't have the staff. And then like some of
the bigger ones like Yeostone and Yosemite, which see like,
(38:12):
uh increble amount of people over the summertime, and their
lines are are ray long with the stuff that they
did have that now meachine those selfs have been cut.
On top of that, when a lot of people come,
you're gonna have a lot of waste. You're gonna have
a lot of also, people not following rules, interacting with
(38:33):
wildlife or going out to beating the path. You're gonna
need staff and people to help them out, and they're
not gonna be able to assist them because they have
been cut.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Yeah, you know, when this started happening, I was like
let me tell you, wildlife is not the place where
we have excess money. We are chronically everywhere understaffed, underpaid, overworked.
I don't understand why we wouldn't be investing in our life,
wild places, our wildlife, especially because wildlife is held in
the public trust, so it belongs to all of us.
(39:06):
We should want that to be funded because it's a
public resource for us. Also, like you were saying, you know,
not having a lot of park service employees, like that
includes rangers who are literally employed to like help save
your life if you are having some sort of issue
in a national park. And I've also heard of wildfire
firefighters being fired, and it's like, is that where we
(39:29):
should be cutting the money? That seems pretty important to me.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
Right, yeah, crazy?
Speaker 2 (39:34):
I look, wild fire are wearing cut and I mean
there's fires going on in most a lot of the
kind I say most of the country, but at least.
Speaker 3 (39:44):
Three other the codes.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
I know.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
There's a couple that happened in South Carolina recently, there's
one in Texas and some in California, and those are
the ones that just the news talk about.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Yeah, all right, well, well, as we wrap up, where
can people find you online? And support your work and
also tell us about your book.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
So people can find me online at Nature underscore al.
So that's Nature with an A N the letter for
the number eight t R E underscore AL. And I'm
on Instagram blue sky x that apartment, vacating that place soon.
(40:28):
You also can email me at Alex K. Dot Trautman
at gmail dot com. And my books their pocket Guides
to Animals to in your state. So I have around
pro different states south right now, I have at Georgia, Florida,
South Carolina. We'll be coming out soon. I have Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Arizona, Colorado, Texas,
(40:57):
and California and Washington are coming out this year. Easy
book to read and introduce to kids and people new nature.
I make sure that they're accessible. It's meaning that people
can't understand them and easily use them with that even
being the first time that they ever picked up a
(41:17):
field guide. But yeah, you can get those at some
local bookstores. Barnes and Noble has it, Target has it
online and some targets as well. And then you also
get it from the Adventure King on website and the
link is in my bio on the Instagram as well,
(41:40):
and if you need like a large set or teacher
classroom set, just emailed me and we can figure something out.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Hell yeah, when are you going to work on some
New England states? I'm biased because I'm here in New England.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
But oh so I do he Massachusetts is already out. Yeah,
so mass is out, and then we have New York
is out, and then the other ones will be coming out, Charlie.
So I'm trying to do like a couple in the east,
then west in central so everyone gets it. I mean
(42:17):
I could be biased and go all of the East
coast first.
Speaker 3 (42:23):
Spreads out.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Yeah, I mean also to be fair, so like I'm
in New Hampshire, Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine. We have
a lot of the same stuff, so it'd be like
pretty repetitive, but I would love I will definitely get
the Massachusetts either way. But that is so fucking cool
that you have that.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
Oh thank you. Yeah, I'm very happy I do.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
And like I said, like I used to like try
to read field guys when I was younger, and I
can read some of the words, and I love the
pictures that I want to make sure that this is
this has been accessible for people so they can not
only look at a.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
Picture, but also I actually understand what they're reading.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Yeah, oh that is so cool. Thank you so much
for coming on and chatting with me about your story.
Alex and I will keep re sharing your stories and
stuff on Instagram and we'll stay updated and see what
happens next. Hopefully something good, yes.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Yes, thank you.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
We often cross that something good does happen. And hopefully
I'm reinstated or for good, yes, for good, or this
administration is allst it somehow.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
That would be even better. Both would be really cool.
Thank you again to Alex for sharing your story in
this episode and the next. I'm also going to be
sharing some write in stories I got from people who
(43:55):
were terminated. This next story is from Chyenne Beach in
her words quote, I started working for the Natural Resources
Conservation Service under the USDA as a soil conservationist in
September twenty twenty four in Illinois. I worked with private
landowners and farm producers to implement federally funded conservation practices
on their land. I helped make their farming practice more
(44:18):
sustainable and restore native prairie, grassland, forest, or wetland ecosystems.
On their land if the landowner chose to do so.
As for my story of when I felt like my
work was most important, A few months ago I conducted
a site visit for a landowner that has been actively
managing the forest on his property with funding through the
Environmental Quality Incentives Program or called EQUIP. His forest was
(44:39):
overgrown with bush, honeysuckle and other invasive plant species. He
had cleared a large portion of the honeysuckle and had
new oak and hickory saplings sprouting in the areas that
he had cleared. We talked about how beautiful his forest
was and how amazing it was to see such old
oak trees on his property. We talked for a while
about the native plants and his property, the wildlife movement
through his property, the the force is being managed, and
(45:01):
we discussed new ways in which he can manage his property,
like prescribed fire. He was so grateful for my time
and information. It felt amazing to be able to connect
with someone that has a passion for conservation and is
implementing conservation practices on their property. Every little bit counts,
and I'm grateful for the opportunity to encourage and support
others and their conservation endeavors. The people I worked with
(45:22):
are motivated and dedicated to conservation and care a lot
about the people we impact. On the morning of February fourteenth,
twenty twenty five, I opened my email and had received
a spammy looking email titled Notification of termination during probationary period.
The email had no body, only an attachment. The email
was sent to me at eight fifteen pm CST on
(45:44):
two thirteen twenty five. The attachment was my termination letter,
and it outlined, quote, the Agency finds, based on your performance,
that you have not demonstrated that your further employment at
the agency would be in public interest. The letter proceeded
to outline that I would be removed from service effective
two thirteen twenty five. I had to relay that termination
(46:05):
letter to my supervisor and their supervisor, as they were
not contacted to discuss my performance or made aware of
my termination. I have not been in service long enough
to receive a formal evaluation, yet my supervisor has given
me an informal valuation stating that I am quote, highly educated, motivated,
and hardworking. We had no guidance on offboarding either. My
(46:26):
states scrambled to figure out off boarding procedures the morning
of two, fourteen, twenty five. Currently, I'm waiting to be
reinstated into my federal position again. Last week, the Federal
Merit Systems Project Board ruled that all USDA terminated probationary
employees must be reinstated into their positions for forty five days.
I haven't received any further information, However, the agency indicates
(46:49):
that they are developing plans to reinstate us Otherwise, I'm
looking for employment outside of the federal system in the
event that I am no longer employed after my forty
five day reinstatement period. That's it for this week's episode.
(47:11):
I know there have been some updates to the situation,
and we'll get into them in the next episode, but
for now, as Alex mentioned, if you want to help,
call your state representatives and remind them that they work
for you and that this is not okay, you can
also share this episode to further share everyone's stories. I
just want to give my deepest condolences and sympathy to
(47:31):
those Central employees who have been terminated, and also to
just anyone being negatively impacted by the current administration's direct
attack on diversity. I hear you I see you, I'm
with you. You are always welcome to hop into my
DMS or email me, even if you just want to
scream to the void. The only way that we'll get
through these next few years is if we do it together.
(47:52):
We are stronger when we work together. If you want
to get in contact with the people I mentioned in
this episode, check out the episode description, where you can
also find us on social media and find an email
if you want to reach out. Thank you to Josh
Walsh for intermusic, and thank you to his brother Jesse
Walsh for editing everything. And next week I will see
you with another interview with another wrongfully terminated federal employee.
(48:16):
Thanks
Welcome to episode ninety three of Get Out Alive, a
podcast about animal attacks, why they happen, and how we
can avoid them. This is a special episode. If you're
a longtime listener, you know how often we talk about
America's national parks, and more often than not, in those
attack stories, park service workers are some of the first
people to respond and give aid. As you're probably aware,
(00:45):
there are so many more for service Park USA employees,
and so many more that provide public services that we
all benefit from. I am a former federal USDA Animal
and Plant Health Inspection Service employee. It was my first
job out of college, and without that job, I wouldn't
have most of the things that I have today. In
my time there, I help people who are experiencing problems
(01:06):
with wildlife and my coworkers, and I monitored for diseases
like avian influenza and rabies, and we even vaccinated wildlife
against rabies. The reason I'm talking about this is because
currently in the United States, federal employees are under attack
by the Trump administration. Since Valentine's Day this year. In February,
tens of thousands of federal employees who were on probationary
(01:28):
status were wrongfully and illegally terminated due to the Department
of Government Efficiency also known as DOGE, headed by Elon Musk.
For some reason, these terminations did not just affect the
Park Service for service in USDA, it's everything the federal government,
including the Department of Education, who is tasked with eliminating
half their workforce, the Department of Veterans Affairs who needs
(01:51):
to cut eighty thousand employees, and the Social Security Administration,
whose employees were offered buyouts. A very twenty six memo
from President Trump told federal agencies to identify quote statutorily
mandated functions and seek to achieve five things. Number one,
better service for the American people. Number two increased productivity.
(02:15):
Three a significant reduction in the number of full time
equivalent positions by eliminating positions that are quote unquote not required,
a reduced real property footprint, and number five reduced budget
top line. As you may be aware, especially if you
are in the environmental or wildlife field, many agencies are
(02:36):
already underfunded and understaffed. As much as it may not
seem like it, Sometimes the federal government is meant to
serve us the people. National parks and forests belong to
all of us and are some of very few public
spaces left for us, and America's wildlife and wildlife is
held in the public trust, meaning the state and federal
governments may manage the wildlife for us, but America's wildlife
(02:59):
belongs to all all of us. Less employees to manage
our public spaces and our wildlife is detrimental to us.
All we are in what's being coined the sixth extinction,
which is the current extinction event we are in, being
primarily driven by humans. Current extinction rates are one hundred
to even one thousand times pre human levels. At this point,
(03:20):
a fourth of all species in the world are estimated
to go extinct by twenty fifty. Since nineteen seventy, we
have lost thirty nine percent of land based species, thirty
nine percent of marine species, and seventy six percent of
all freshwater animal species. In the time that you listen
to this entire podcast episode, over nine thousand humans will
(03:44):
be born and we will lose three species. We do
not have the luxury of moving backwards. Twenty fifty is
only twenty five years away. We need all the time
and resources we can get to preserve our natural environment.
Everything that you have, that you eat, that you drink
is either grown from the ground or as mind, everything
(04:04):
comes from the environment. If you're listening to this podcast,
it's probably because you're interested in wildlife for nature in general.
So I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but we
cannot allow our federal government to act against us and
act against our land and our wildlife because I want
to do anything I can to help. In this episode
and our next episode, I will be sharing stories from
some of those federal employees who were wrongfully terminated. We'll
(04:28):
hear the work that they were doing, the nature of
their termination, and where we stand now. Today. We're going
to start by hearing from Alex Troutman, a former environmental
protection specialist with the National Park Service. Alex is one
of the employees who received a letter of termination on
February fourteenth. This is his story.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yeah, So my name is Alex Troutman, my pronoils are
he young is, and I'm from Austelle, Georgia. I study biology, birds, wetlands,
butterflies pretty much. I like to call myself a cult
tit biologist because all of my species and qualities are
(05:18):
kind of cooled together. I'm not really focusing on one
like type of species or one type of habitat all.
My work has allowed me to work in many different
habitats and work with many different species, even work in
many different states as well as a few countries as well.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
That's so cool. With other countries have you worked in?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
So I did research for bats in Malaysia only I'm
island of Borneo. I was there for about two roughly
two months, so I'm doing bad research. And dabbled a
little bit and and leaf litter studies, but most of
the research for bats. And then I did a couple
(06:04):
like really, I mean it's not really a lot, but
a simple electro fishing for some fresh water fish in Australia.
Just a form of like a demonstration accounts that's still work.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
I guess that.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Counts so cool. Well, how did you end up in Malaysia? Like?
How did that opportunity present itself?
Speaker 2 (06:25):
It was something that almost didn't happen. It was right
in between undergrad and trying to figure out my life.
I saw a position on text am job board. The
old version. I'm not really I'm familiar with IM. I
don't like the new version. The old version was better anyways.
On text am job board, I saw it and then
(06:49):
it was a position. It said for early career scientists.
But I really didn't consider myself at that stage because
I had been out of my undergrad for almost two
year years.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
So I didn't apply to it. And then a couple
of friends sent me I'm like, hey, you should apply,
and I was like, all right, well, if everyone's saying
to me, let me apply and I see what it's about.
So I applied.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
When I got the position, the position was for a
small mammal like team league, so I was like, okay, yeah,
I'll apply to it. I did some small mental work
and undergrad, working with one of our grad students, I'm
looking at early successional habitat use by old phil mice
before and after fires, and so I applied.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
I got it. A couple of weeks later.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
I was like, oh, like, we're starting to tell you
like funny fell through for a small mountain project, so
we switched you to the bat team.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Is that okay? And I was like, oh yeah, Like
I'm not going to turn up the opportunity to one
way for that accident, go do research on the other
side of the world. So I was like, yeah, I'll
still do it. So yeah, it's just a lot of
people like encourage me to apply and not letting my
own imposters syndrome get into my head as well. So
(08:08):
that's what led me on other side of the world
map whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
So cool. So how has your relationship with nature been
throughout your life? Like, were you always one of those
kids I was outside turned over rocks looking at birds
and stuff, or.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Yeah, it's like nature husband in my life, like from
the time I was born, Like I used to go
fishing with my brothers, uncles and dad. I was lucky
that my family actually had like we own our home
and have like Atlanta. I think it's somewhere between like
a little over a quarter to just over a half
(08:45):
acre or so, but it has a creak in the back,
and I would spend a lot of my childhood like
fishing back there building somewhat like a down and then
like looking for water lizards, which are salamanders. At the time,
I know where they were. I just saw that there
was looked like lizards and it was body of water,
so we call it water lizards. So me and my
(09:06):
friend I would do that for most of our days,
like after school in elementary school.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
And then around the same time, like.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I was getting interested in Stee Warren, Jeff Corn, Jack Handa,
all the great conservationists and wildlife people. I man like
I knew I wanted to do something in nature and
work with wildlife, I really didn't know in what capacity.
Undergrad I switched my major from biology pre vet to
(09:39):
Middle RaSE Education minor an biology. That during that time
I took two field classes field orientology and then mammology
study of birds and then study of mammals. And I
had two great mentors or well professors that they're my
mentors now who are leading those classes, who like the
(10:00):
show not only a passion for what they were doing son,
but also a passion for us and make sure that
we were actually learning. And that's why I realized, like, oh,
like I can do research and be outside and work
with animals and also potentially get paid to do it.
So like I switched my major back to biology and
with a focus in wildlife management.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
And it was during that time that I also found
out that like all the time like I was outside,
like looking and listening at birds and four birds, that
I was doing something called birding or bird watching.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
I didn't know what it was.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
I just knew I liked redtail hall so.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Like Sinel then so taking orthology, like I fell in
love with the most beautiful duck on the wood duck.
And after that, like I was doing how to do
it for class, Like, well, let me just continue burdening
and see what it's about.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
And I was hooked.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah, I've been following you for years now, and I
think that's how I first found you, was through birding.
And then I was like, also, his last name is Troutman,
which is the perfect name for a biologist. I'm sure
you get that.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
All the time, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I was destined for her. Yeah, yeah, it's funny. Everyone
asked me like, do you like to fish? And then
they're like, oh, you must work with fish.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
She was.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Up until last year, I haven't worked with fish. It
wasn't until like I got the fellowship that I actually
started doing some fish work. And like it was it
was a runny joke with me and some of my
like friends. One of my other mentors, he was like,
you should go your whole life and never work with fish.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Yeah. I enjoyed it, so.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
How has your job journey been post graduation and how
did it lead you to the most recent job that
you had.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Yeah, So after graduation, I they got a job or
an internship with the Student Conservation Association and America Corps.
And there I was a park ranger for Allegany County,
which is Pittsburgh and they have nine county parks and
like my team was a corpse team, so we was
(12:20):
broken up into two different teams, the North County in
South County and I was in the South County.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
So I helped manage five with Accounting parks.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Did that for just over a year, and most of
our job was to just get people to one know
more about the green spaces that they have with the
accounting parks and then actually utilize it and then like
do programming. So I did a lot of nature hikes,
led boy Scouts and went to the school group, talked
(12:50):
about pollinators, did defense mechanism hikes, did some owl and
bat hikes as well.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
So I did that for about a year.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
And that's kind of why I figure out that I'm
good at communicating science.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Before that, like I liked science and talking about animals,
but I didn't realize like how good I was at it,
and also that could actually do it because I really
didn't like talking. I was a little shy, but that
made me do it. After that job, I went home
and worked with Atlanta at Georgia Aquarium as an educator
(13:26):
for both of those different organizations, leading school groups throughout
the aquarium and talking about different conservational issues. And then
at the aquarium also leading school groups, but also doing
like overnight events where you can like stay at the
zoo and do night like ventures around the zoo and
see some animals and utilize like some are night vision
(13:49):
goggles to see like I caught it leopard at most
of the time was hiding that we could see it.
So I did that for about roughly I.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Guess around eight or nine months, and then I finally
got a job with the federal government after like applying
for years or almostly two years from the time I
graduated to actually finally get an interview and then getting
a job. But I got a job with a fishing
wild Life service and New Richmond, Wisconsin, like it's a
(14:24):
smaller town that even people from Wisconsin don't know where
it's at, but it's on the border of Minnesota and Wisconsin,
but I went up there did habitat management work, and
the main focus was doing habitat management and restoration for
a small butterfly called the corner blue butterfly. It's a
(14:45):
dangerous species that used to be throughout the whole state
of Wisconsin and even leading into some of the Eastern
and North Eastern states, but now it's like have different
hot spots throughout those states. It's extra paid or locally
as stink in the region. So I did that for
about a year and then applied for a position with
(15:08):
the National Park Service doing seaturt work, on which I
really didn't think I was gonna get in my mind,
like I never started I would work with sea turtles
because at that time I wasn't going on the boat
out in the middle of the ocean to look for them,
and I didn't think that they would come up to me.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
So then I started working with sea turtles. Fell in
love with the best sea turtles, the Kim's Radley sea turtles.
They're my favorite because they're they're kind of like me there.
They're misfit, not really under understood, and then they just
like break out all the like social norms like sea turtles.
They folks to the nests at night, but the Kim's
(15:50):
ray they never sturing the day.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
They're the smallest sea turtle species. And then they also
one one of a few groups that nests or nesting
like large groups caravadus. So I did that work for
two different seasons and then I left and went to
Borneo and did bat work. Finished my season and like
(16:12):
June like eighth and June tenths, I was heading to
Borneo on like things like the first fight was like
eighteen hours or so, and then had to find another
like eight or so hours, then like a three hour
of ride. But yeah, so I did Borneo. I did
batwork in Borneo and that was pretty cool. We were
(16:36):
doing batwork in the one of the national parks there,
looking at like species occurrence in abundance, just trying to
document some of the species that was in that area.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
It was rough, hard work at first, it was a lot,
but it was it was good.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
From what I know of Borneo, never been but I've
heard that it's pretty hot and humid, so I can
imagine it was tough.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Oh yeah, yeah, it's definitely very humid and hot. But
thankfully there are rain showers there because it's a rainforest.
But yeah, it's it's definitely like being in like the
swamps of Louisiana.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
I'm from Georgia.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
It's very human here, but bornio humidity, it's different. They
also have a lot of different interesting creatures. They have
land leeches that you have to work where you out from.
They look like inchworms and calibers where they're actually leaches
and they like fight through your socks and stuff. They're
pretty cool. And then oh my god, yeah it's intense.
(17:38):
But did that for two months and then literally like
landed and I spent like three days at home and
went hopped on the boat that's in dangerous wee s
observer off the coast so max Hatta, North Carolina, and
lived there for about two weeks. Then went home and
stayed there for a day and drove all the way
to Galveston, Texas and helped on different boat and stay
(18:01):
there for about four months on getting off to drive
to a newport and getting back home back. During that time,
I was doing an endangered species observer work, so looking
for marine mammals and watching out for you as the
boat is completing the dredging activity for beach new renewishment
(18:22):
or widening and shipting channels.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
So we making sure the both wasn't running into.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Any marine mammals that were in danger, like the right
well start digging up any marine mammal or other danger.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Species like sea turtles on selfish. So that was a
lot of fun. Got to see a lot of cool
on sea creatures that I haven't seen before. And then
I did that for roughly I.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Don't know, like three, three or four months, and then
I got into grad school, which is a huge like
story in itself. So anyways, I did that when to
grad school and worked with the NPS for two months.
I'm doing grad school doing biological science work in Manasas, Virginia,
(19:10):
doing a lot of deer. Were all study building gear
exclusion defenses for sensitive plants, habits, had measurement plans for
Hensol sparrow and Bob whitequill as well as I'm doing
surveys for both of them, and did that for two months,
and then went back to grad school did my master's
(19:31):
project with the count Kents.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Really with the Seaside sparrow, seaqure.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
The turtles are stuck in my head, but did work
with the seaside sparrow looking at their nestlinge diets and
was available to them on the Tittle Marshes in South Georgia.
So I did that for two summers and then I
got a job with the Fish wild Life Service as
(20:00):
a biological science technician working and Ulula River in Louisiana,
back on Tensaw River National Waldlarfe Refuge.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
It was just like an eighty eight thousand and acre refuge.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
So I did that from July or twenty twenty one
to January twenty two, and then took a break while
I was waiting to get convered over into a permanent
position with the Fish and wild Life Service, and I
got converted over in April and did that for a
year as a part lands biologist in South Georgia. So
(20:34):
I did that for roughly almost a year nine months,
and then I got awarded the Kenos Marine Policy Fellowship
and left and did that fellowship for a year, and
I was placed in a Fishing Wildlife division, so obviously
executive assistant to the division. It was great experience and
(20:57):
just need a lot of different fish biology as some
of the fish bologists were also people of color and
they were just kid of great examples as well, and
someone like they've been in the service for so long
but haven't yet had a chance to work with another
like black biologists as well. So it was a little
good experience. And then that brings us back to twenty
(21:20):
twenty four when I left the position as on the
EXECU assistant. Once I finished my Canoe schellowship, I applied
for the position back at home as an environmental protection
specialist with the National Park Service, and I was really
looking forward to it because it was bringing me back home.
The Georgia National Park unit was right up the street
(21:43):
from my house, within like twenty miles. I was okay
like his homes in Atlanta, and a supervisor seemed pretty
good on meta biologists and like I was doing that work.
I was the environment protect specialist for the park, but
also the Georgia Department their transportation and liaison. So with
(22:03):
that I not only did the newook compliance for the part,
but also helped with a nebook compliance and acted as
an animediary between the National Park Service units that were
in Georgia and the Georgia Department of Transportation.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
So that's how I got there a lot.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Well, but like you have had the career that's so
many widelife biologists dream of, where like I get to
travel all over the country in the world, just like
studying different things. Like you have a great resume to
do literally whatever you want. That's amazing.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Well thank you, yeah, yeah, hopefully all listen out there. Wow.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Well yeah, So speaking of the whole reason that we're
talking about this, So what happened, Like you were terminated
from your position that you had just received last year
with the National Park Service. How did that go down?
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeah, it was very like unfortunate and like blindsiding because
one like I mentioned that my job was working as
the Georgia Department of Transportation liaison, so they actually funded
my position, Like all my money is already allocated not
just for this year, but for at least the next
(23:22):
four years, and it's already had been sent to the
park and was in a bank. So by getting rid
of me, the government is not getting any more money,
they're not spending any more money, like they're not saving anything.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
The money had already been allocated for my position.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
And with that, man said, like for the longest time
going back and forth, like after the first execon order
came out, I was like, I asked my super.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
I was like, am I safe?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
And she's like, yeah, Like, your money isn't funded by
the government government, it's already in the bank, so you
should be good. So I would I said question every
couple every couple of days because the new things were
coming out, and I was like, all right, am I
really good? Like you masked the g DOT coordinator, It's like, yes,
your money is provided by states already been there, so
(24:14):
you should be fine.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
At least some are in with g DOT. I said okay.
And then around on the thirteenth, like I went on
vacation and I.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Just asked again to be sure. I was like like,
is everything okay. It's like, yes, you're fine. You shouldn't
have to worry.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
And then on the fourteenth, while I was on vacation,
I heard like a lot of people got terminated. So
I reached out to my super. I was like, hey,
what is this, Like, Am I on the list? Am
I on the list? And she's like, oh, I haven't
heard anything as of yet, so that could be a
good sign. Since I haven't heard anything, so I was like, okay,
(24:57):
it sounds good.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
And then like that she followed with like I heard
through the grape vine that there's a chance that there
will be another like cut on Tuesday. So like hearing
that on Monday, I made a decision to like just
drive back up our drive back from Florida and in
my vacation early because I'd rather like get it in
(25:21):
person instead of like having to worry about it for
the next couple of days. I drove back up Monday
forgot something and had to go back to Florida that
night and.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Turn back around and drive up. So I ended up.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Technically left around two thirty pm. That we didn't get
back home until five o'clock in the morning on Tuesday,
so I had been up for a full twenty four
hours and open up my computer just to like answer
some emails and think, like if I'm going to get
an email, i'll probably be later today that I open
it up, and it was answering emails and it was
(25:59):
like seventh one down on Friday the fourteenth, and it
was like basically like, oh, you've been terminated, And I
was like what, So I like sent to my supervisor like, oh,
like I got Nicks, and like that's all I can say,
Like I got nig It was like so like find
sighting like what they didn't even like send like any
information or they didn't include my supervisor park superintendent.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
On the letter. It was just sent to me. So
it was just like frustrate. So she didn't know anything
about it.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
That's crazy. So who did you get the email from?
Like did you even recognize the sunder?
Speaker 3 (26:37):
I did not know.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
This person came from the definitely director of the well
the acting deputy director of the National Parks Service. And
I never had any contact with this individual at all,
never heard their name. They sent their email and it
was because I was approachenationary employee.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
And they also say that before I failed to approve
my performances adequate in my progretionary phase, which again I
never heard this person. They never did any type of
evaluation on me, like they don't even know my name.
And the fact that like the email they sent was
(27:22):
clearly a cookie killer email that was mass produced and
they just changed your name, your park and then the dates.
But yeah, it was crazy.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
So the letter did it say, like you know, I
saw the letter that you post on Instagram. It does
seem like the letter everyone else that got terminated got
so like what So if you started last year, when
was your probation up?
Speaker 3 (27:50):
My probation would be up on in June.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
So the thing is like I switched from the official
wild Life Service and only had like two months of
probationary pier left, and then why left from the fishing
will less areas to take the fellowship that like councilors
everything out. But even if I would have stayed and
did that, like complete that probationary period with the ficial
(28:18):
wal Life Service, since I left to a new agency,
I still would have to restart it.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
You know, I have worked with the Department Interior several
other times.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
So but anyways, I would have been up June sixteenth
would have been my probationary period, so a little over
four months.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Yeah, And I guess for people who might not be familiar,
could you explain what that probation period is and like
what it's.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
For depending on your position, it's either a year long
or two years alone period or basically there make sure
you have you're good enough to work there, you have
good conduct on your performances, it's up to par and
you don't have any disciplinary actions. And if you complete
(29:04):
that full year or two years without any actions, I'm
guarantee your status and I have to like go through
another coperate orationary phase. And since you're a stable employee,
whenever you leave an agency or sometimes depending on the position,
it's switched to a different position, you have to go
through like a trial period. So like for other jobs
(29:26):
it's ninety days or so, but with the government, it's
a year or two years, And it doesn't really take
an account like how long you have worked for the government,
even though the Department of Interior like over house several
different agencies.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
So a position that you're talking about with the Park Service,
this was a permanent position.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
This one was a turn position for four years, but
it was hoped to be permanent eventually. The work that
I was doing is pretty much a central to the park.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Yeah, And I mean so I was a former term
employee too at the federal government with the USDA, And
it can be confusing because so I was like term
on four years, and similar to your job, it's like, yeah,
if we still have funding after the four years, then
we like renew you. So it's kind of like your
permanent employee, like as long as the funding is there.
But like you were saying if it's a necessary position,
(30:21):
very likely you're going to have the funding to keep going.
So it's not like this was even just some like
seasonal job, like this could have been your career.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah, yeah, I definitely cared our career. And like I
mentioned before, like the funding was already there for at
least four years. So like now that money is just
Center Bank being wasted since yeah, like I'm not working
only there and not going to hire.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
Anybody else to do it. Talk about wasting money there
you go.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Literally that's the definition of wasting the money it was
allocated for this thing, and they're like, never mind where
it's just gonna let it sit there and not have
the work done. Like that doesn't make any fucking sense.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
Yes, not at all.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
God, So, like we were talking about before we started
recording last night, so today we're recording this on March fourteenth.
Last night, judges I believe in California and some other
state that I can't think of right now, ruled that
this type of termination that the Department of Government Efficiency
whatever determined like this was not legal the way that
(31:24):
you and many other people like you were fired. So
what is do you have an update what's going on?
Are you going to be reinstated? Do you have any idea?
Speaker 2 (31:36):
I mean right now, I don't really have like an update.
I reached out on to my park, as other people
have reached out as well, like we're not really sure
what it means. Because while that judge did rule like
technically in our favor, the question is like if it
was uphill and we were reinstated, we were not really
(31:59):
sure like how long we would be reinstated because the
goal is to get rid of at least thirty percent
or more of the federal workforce. And now this sess
to me like it says that we were fired illegally.
Now just it just like they can reinstate US and
then now actually go through a proper reducing for us
(32:23):
on RIF and you actually say, okay, you have thirty
and sixty days notice that you're going to lose your job,
which is on what they're supposed to do if they're
gonna perform on Ril. So now that that's where we are,
we're it's still like we're not sure what's happening, looking
for jobs, trying to figure out what's that. And then
(32:46):
someone us like are following like trying to get unemployment
that we can because we are waiting for our documents
and a lot of people have been let go, so
there's nobody to provide those documents are back their back hill.
And then unfortunately the MELI system is going through a
crisis as well, thank god.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
So yeah, we're not sure.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
And then like are not able to get unemployment because
for some stakes you can't have like it be your
follow or performance issue and unfortunate that's what the letter
says for some people.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
So that's issue too. And you got to like appeal.
It's a lie.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Wow, I didn't even think of that. That's evil.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
Yeah, it's a lot.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Wow. So you said that you're, you know, applying for jobs.
What can other people do to like advocate for people
like you who have been wrongfully terminated.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah, definitely calling your representative senators and fighting for them.
And then there's a couple of different acts that are
going through. One of them is the merit At that
is encouraging like Congress and to get involved in get
us reinstated. And I believe that's why represent the modl
(34:07):
Milk or Lawer Milk. That's the Merry Act that you
can call your congress people about and try to help
them support it also like standing up telling them to
actually have a backbone would be more like Al Green
of Texas and stand up to the administration and us
(34:31):
even if you at one time support this administration that
you realize now that you don't anymore. Like make sure
you voice that concern and tell your congress people and
even your films like this, this is not okay. On
what's happening, and participate in the economic boycott. So right
(34:53):
now there's one on Amazon today. Pretty much every Friday
throughout the year, there's a boycott owned many large businesses
and utilizing their credit cards.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
That just basically hitting them where it hurts and donald
that's their pockets.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Also one more thing, it's a pretty conceived notion by
some people that government employees are.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
Lazy and do not deserve their checks.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
One of them is a congress person from Georgia, but
not realizing that she also is a governmental in federal worker.
But yeah, but anyways, speaking from the National Park Service
and Fish Wial Life Service aspect of it, like there
are people who are who were terminated wrongfully by this
(35:50):
administration who are literally volunteering their time helping to continue
the work that they were doing with dangerous cycs because
they know that without them there, it's detrimental to those species.
But even before like all this, the National Park Service,
US Sociality Service has been heavily underfunded, and we were
(36:13):
doing double duty in many different places like the refuge
on that work that that was eighty eight thousand acres,
there were roughly six employees that was managing that refuge, and.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
Of those six, only three of them were like full
time employees. So hold your tongue if you're going to
say for the employees excusually are are lazy and we
don't deserve our tech like we're doing so much work.
We're even doing more work.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Them we possibly could for not even an equal amount
of pay that other people would be getting as well.
So it's it's ridiculous. So jail, don't don't say for
employees are lazy. If you're some want to say that,
actually correct feel and tell like all we're doing and
(37:09):
what we take care of and just for instance, National
Park Service we bring in roughly like around like fifty
five billion dollars of money for the US and that's
through fees from visitors, but also local economies like gateway
(37:30):
towns or towns that are alone or just right outside
of national parks. And yet we spend less money that
we bring in that much revenue, So it would be
wise to actually fund us and keep us there. And
I don't even know where this is gonna go as
(37:52):
we continue to lose for employees, Like there's National park
services that are already counseling, like tour there's some they're
closing on Mondays for the rest of the year because
they don't have the staff. And then like some of
the bigger ones like Yeostone and Yosemite, which see like,
(38:12):
uh increble amount of people over the summertime, and their
lines are are ray long with the stuff that they
did have that now meachine those selfs have been cut.
On top of that, when a lot of people come,
you're gonna have a lot of waste. You're gonna have
a lot of also, people not following rules, interacting with
(38:33):
wildlife or going out to beating the path. You're gonna
need staff and people to help them out, and they're
not gonna be able to assist them because they have
been cut.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Yeah, you know, when this started happening, I was like
let me tell you, wildlife is not the place where
we have excess money. We are chronically everywhere understaffed, underpaid, overworked.
I don't understand why we wouldn't be investing in our life,
wild places, our wildlife, especially because wildlife is held in
the public trust, so it belongs to all of us.
(39:06):
We should want that to be funded because it's a
public resource for us. Also, like you were saying, you know,
not having a lot of park service employees, like that
includes rangers who are literally employed to like help save
your life if you are having some sort of issue
in a national park. And I've also heard of wildfire
firefighters being fired, and it's like, is that where we
(39:29):
should be cutting the money? That seems pretty important to me.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
Right, yeah, crazy?
Speaker 2 (39:34):
I look, wild fire are wearing cut and I mean
there's fires going on in most a lot of the
kind I say most of the country, but at least.
Speaker 3 (39:44):
Three other the codes.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
I know.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
There's a couple that happened in South Carolina recently, there's
one in Texas and some in California, and those are
the ones that just the news talk about.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Yeah, all right, well, well, as we wrap up, where
can people find you online? And support your work and
also tell us about your book.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
So people can find me online at Nature underscore al.
So that's Nature with an A N the letter for
the number eight t R E underscore AL. And I'm
on Instagram blue sky x that apartment, vacating that place soon.
(40:28):
You also can email me at Alex K. Dot Trautman
at gmail dot com. And my books their pocket Guides
to Animals to in your state. So I have around
pro different states south right now, I have at Georgia, Florida,
South Carolina. We'll be coming out soon. I have Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Arizona, Colorado, Texas,
(40:57):
and California and Washington are coming out this year. Easy
book to read and introduce to kids and people new nature.
I make sure that they're accessible. It's meaning that people
can't understand them and easily use them with that even
being the first time that they ever picked up a
(41:17):
field guide. But yeah, you can get those at some
local bookstores. Barnes and Noble has it, Target has it
online and some targets as well. And then you also
get it from the Adventure King on website and the
link is in my bio on the Instagram as well,
(41:40):
and if you need like a large set or teacher
classroom set, just emailed me and we can figure something out.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Hell yeah, when are you going to work on some
New England states? I'm biased because I'm here in New England.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
But oh so I do he Massachusetts is already out. Yeah,
so mass is out, and then we have New York
is out, and then the other ones will be coming out, Charlie.
So I'm trying to do like a couple in the east,
then west in central so everyone gets it. I mean
(42:17):
I could be biased and go all of the East
coast first.
Speaker 3 (42:23):
Spreads out.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Yeah, I mean also to be fair, so like I'm
in New Hampshire, Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine. We have
a lot of the same stuff, so it'd be like
pretty repetitive, but I would love I will definitely get
the Massachusetts either way. But that is so fucking cool
that you have that.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
Oh thank you. Yeah, I'm very happy I do.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
And like I said, like I used to like try
to read field guys when I was younger, and I
can read some of the words, and I love the
pictures that I want to make sure that this is
this has been accessible for people so they can not
only look at a.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
Picture, but also I actually understand what they're reading.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Yeah, oh that is so cool. Thank you so much
for coming on and chatting with me about your story.
Alex and I will keep re sharing your stories and
stuff on Instagram and we'll stay updated and see what
happens next. Hopefully something good, yes.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Yes, thank you.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
We often cross that something good does happen. And hopefully
I'm reinstated or for good, yes, for good, or this
administration is allst it somehow.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
That would be even better. Both would be really cool.
Thank you again to Alex for sharing your story in
this episode and the next. I'm also going to be
sharing some write in stories I got from people who
(43:55):
were terminated. This next story is from Chyenne Beach in
her words quote, I started working for the Natural Resources
Conservation Service under the USDA as a soil conservationist in
September twenty twenty four in Illinois. I worked with private
landowners and farm producers to implement federally funded conservation practices
on their land. I helped make their farming practice more
(44:18):
sustainable and restore native prairie, grassland, forest, or wetland ecosystems.
On their land if the landowner chose to do so.
As for my story of when I felt like my
work was most important, A few months ago I conducted
a site visit for a landowner that has been actively
managing the forest on his property with funding through the
Environmental Quality Incentives Program or called EQUIP. His forest was
(44:39):
overgrown with bush, honeysuckle and other invasive plant species. He
had cleared a large portion of the honeysuckle and had
new oak and hickory saplings sprouting in the areas that
he had cleared. We talked about how beautiful his forest
was and how amazing it was to see such old
oak trees on his property. We talked for a while
about the native plants and his property, the wildlife movement
through his property, the the force is being managed, and
(45:01):
we discussed new ways in which he can manage his property,
like prescribed fire. He was so grateful for my time
and information. It felt amazing to be able to connect
with someone that has a passion for conservation and is
implementing conservation practices on their property. Every little bit counts,
and I'm grateful for the opportunity to encourage and support
others and their conservation endeavors. The people I worked with
(45:22):
are motivated and dedicated to conservation and care a lot
about the people we impact. On the morning of February fourteenth,
twenty twenty five, I opened my email and had received
a spammy looking email titled Notification of termination during probationary period.
The email had no body, only an attachment. The email
was sent to me at eight fifteen pm CST on
(45:44):
two thirteen twenty five. The attachment was my termination letter,
and it outlined, quote, the Agency finds, based on your performance,
that you have not demonstrated that your further employment at
the agency would be in public interest. The letter proceeded
to outline that I would be removed from service effective
two thirteen twenty five. I had to relay that termination
(46:05):
letter to my supervisor and their supervisor, as they were
not contacted to discuss my performance or made aware of
my termination. I have not been in service long enough
to receive a formal evaluation, yet my supervisor has given
me an informal valuation stating that I am quote, highly educated, motivated,
and hardworking. We had no guidance on offboarding either. My
(46:26):
states scrambled to figure out off boarding procedures the morning
of two, fourteen, twenty five. Currently, I'm waiting to be
reinstated into my federal position again. Last week, the Federal
Merit Systems Project Board ruled that all USDA terminated probationary
employees must be reinstated into their positions for forty five days.
I haven't received any further information, However, the agency indicates
(46:49):
that they are developing plans to reinstate us Otherwise, I'm
looking for employment outside of the federal system in the
event that I am no longer employed after my forty
five day reinstatement period. That's it for this week's episode.
(47:11):
I know there have been some updates to the situation,
and we'll get into them in the next episode, but
for now, as Alex mentioned, if you want to help,
call your state representatives and remind them that they work
for you and that this is not okay, you can
also share this episode to further share everyone's stories. I
just want to give my deepest condolences and sympathy to
(47:31):
those Central employees who have been terminated, and also to
just anyone being negatively impacted by the current administration's direct
attack on diversity. I hear you I see you, I'm
with you. You are always welcome to hop into my
DMS or email me, even if you just want to
scream to the void. The only way that we'll get
through these next few years is if we do it together.
(47:52):
We are stronger when we work together. If you want
to get in contact with the people I mentioned in
this episode, check out the episode description, where you can
also find us on social media and find an email
if you want to reach out. Thank you to Josh
Walsh for intermusic, and thank you to his brother Jesse
Walsh for editing everything. And next week I will see
you with another interview with another wrongfully terminated federal employee.
(48:16):
Thanks
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