Ep. 94: Wrongfully Terminated - Part 2 (feat. Liz Crandall)

In this episode, we're finishing our two-part series covering some stories from the recent wrongful terminations carried out by the U.S. federal government. In this episode, we hear from former US Forest Service ranger Liz Crandall about her life, the work she did, and how her job was stripped from her. We also hear Kathryn Brainerd's story about how the job she was offered simply ceased to exist.

You can find Liz on Instagram @oregonhuntress and you can find Kathryn on Instagram @kathrynbrainerd.

Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, Tiktok, check out our website GetOutAlivePodcast.com and join us on Patreon (where you can now follow us for free)!

Support the show for free by subscribing and leaving a 5-star review wherever you're listening, or on GoodPods or Podchaser (where we can respond to your comments).

You can find Ashley @TheAngryOlogist on Twitter, @ashleytheologist on Bluesky

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:24):
Welcome to episode ninety four of Get Out Alive, the
podcast about animal attacks, why they happen, and how we
can avoid them. In this episode, we're continuing to share
stories from federal employees who are wrongfully terminated before I
even continue. Look, I completely understand some of your frustration
about talking about politics, because this is a podcast primarily

(00:46):
about animal tacks and you might want a break from politics.
We all do. Some of you want me to just
state facts and not my opinions, especially my political ones.
But what I stated last week in our last uppisode
was not even really my opinion. I was factually stating
what was happening in the US in regards to federal terminations.

(01:08):
With this podcast, I do my best to stay in
my lane as a wildlife biologist, because it's not my
place or my expertise to comment on other things like
the economy, for example, because there are other podcasts that
you can go to for experts talking about those topics.
But I will always use my platform here to talk
about issues affecting our environment, wildlife, and the people who

(01:29):
dedicate their lives to protecting those resources for all of us.
You are allowed to listen to any other podcast anytime
you want, and I can assure you we will continue
to talk about animal tacks after this episode, and in fact,
our next episode is with a federal employee who was
attacked on the job. This week, we're talking to Liz Crandall,

(01:50):
a former ranger at the Shoots National Forest and Oregon.
After our talk, I'll share more write in stories from
other wrongfully terminated employees, and we'll talk about where everyone
stands now, including Alex and Cheyenne from part one of
this episode last week. Let's get into it.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yeah, my name is Liz Cranbell and I grew up
in Oregon, but I've moved around a lot of places
in my life. I've lived in California, New Orleans, Florida, Wyoming.
I've lived a lot of places, but pretty much from Oregon,
though I always end up going back there. And right
now I live in Bend, and that's where I was

(02:35):
based out of for my job, which was a field
ranger with the US for Service on the Dshoots National Forest,
and I went to school for Tourism, Recreation and Venture Leadership.
I got a Bachelor of Science and a minor in
natural resources from Oregon State University Cascades Campus in Bend,
and it's a kind of a unique program. It was

(02:57):
a lot of learning how to be a leader in
the outdoor and a lot of like ecology based classes,
wildlife ecology or biology, I mean, and yeah, all sorts
of stuff. And so I've always kind of been an
outdoorsy person. I've always loved nature and just being in
the outdoors is so rewarding and it just makes me

(03:19):
feel at home. So that's why I wanted to build
a career in that, and so that's where I ended
up working for the Forest Service eventually.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, and so did you grow you up like always
know that you wanted to be a ranger or did
you like know what your options were? Because for me personally,
like when you grow up and say, oh I love animals,
everyone's like be a vet. That's all you've got. So
I don't know if that was also your experience where
you didn't know what your options were or if you
were like ranger, like this is what I.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
Wanted to buy. So I was really confused growing up.
I didn't have the best childhood and we moved around
a lot, and it was just it was just kind
of chaotic for lack of better term, and so I
never even had the energy or time to focus on
like what do I want to do one day? It
was more like how do I survive each day? So
then once I graduated high school, I was super restless

(04:08):
and I just was like, I need to do something
interesting and weird. So I was always a big fan
of like Jack Kerouac and what do You Got Three?
And you know, people like that, and it was very
like romanticizing of traveling. So I actually hitchhiked across the
country when I was nineteen, freshly nineteen. It was January first,
twenty twelve. Yeah, So I just I met these people

(04:31):
that were like, yeah, we train hop and hitchhike, and
I was like, you can do that, and they're like, yeah,
we do it all the time. I was like, can
I come with you? And they were just like, I guess,
are you sure you're ready for that? I was like, yeah,
I'm ready. Like I don't need anything, I'm just gonna
sell all my stuff and let's go and yeah. And
then that's how I ended up in New Orleans. I
ended up just traveling through there and I fell in

(04:52):
love with the city and met some really cool people,
and so I ended up staying there for a few years,
and then long story short, I ended up working a
seasonal concessionaire job in Yellowstone National Park, not with the
Park Service, unfortunately, but it was still an amazing experience
just living in the park for a summer. And that
was when I started to realize, like, oh, I want
to work outside. I've always loved the outdoors, and now

(05:16):
I know that there's career options in that. And so
that's how I ended up getting my motivation for being
a ranger.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah, so like, what was your path to becoming a ranger.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
I moved back to Eugene, Oregon, and because I used
to live there when I was younger and I had
friends there, and it was after working in Yellowstone I
knew I didn't want to go back to Florida. I
didn't like living there. No offense, Florida, you have beauty,
but it wasn't for me. So I went back to
Eugene and I started getting really into hiking because I
was hiking in Yellowstone, but I was so woefully unprepared

(05:48):
and young and just naive. So I started getting more
into researching it and having like the ten essentials and
being prepared in the outdoors and making sure that I
don't like die out there. So I got some hiking
books and there was this waterfall called Lower trustle Balls
and I was like, okay, I'm going to go find that.
And I was in Cottage Grove on the Qui National

(06:10):
Forest and I was driving through and I see this
ranger station and I like lit up. I was like,
oh my god, there's a range station here, like this
close Eugene. That's amazing. Like I'll go in and see
if I can volunteer. So I went in every week
and like bug them and I was like, please, can
I be a volunteer? And they're like, yeah, we'll call you,
and they never called me, so I was getting frustrated.
So I just kept showing them up. And the front

(06:32):
desk girl who ended up being my friend later, but
she was just like oh my god. Every time I
walk in, She's like what what what do you want?
I was like, I just want to volunteer. And so
then she like went the back and like grabbed some
people and was and was like okay, like come back,
we'll talk to you. And it was my eventual supervisor, Jed.

(06:53):
And then who is the recreation staff leader and then
a wildlife biologist, a botanist, and me, So that the
four of us sat at the table and they were
just like can we help you? Like what the hell
do you want? And I was like, I know, I'm crazy,
I know, I just it feels right. I want to volunteer,

(07:14):
Like where do you guys need help? I don't care,
like I'll do anything. And they're like, okay, you can
help us pull weeds on the forest. And then the
other guy was like, you can help me with campgrounds.
And then the other guy's like, oh, I needed you
spot owl surveys. Would you like to see what that's about?
And so I was just like yes, yes, yes, And
that's how I started. And then they all really liked
me and my weird tenacity, and then I was hired

(07:35):
on the next year as a seasonal emergency higher and
then seasonal seasons for years after that.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
Wow. So did they like make a position for you? Essentially?

Speaker 2 (07:46):
No, The guy that was in it was a really
small ranger district and it actually got absorbed into another
major district now so, but there was only one recreation
technician for the entire district. Wow, And he kind of sucked.
So he ended up actually get fired, and which was
very good that he was, because yeah, he was not
a good person. And so then the job was open,

(08:10):
so they were like, hey, you want it, Yeah, so helly. Yeah,
it was really unique situation because a lot of other people,
like it's really hard to get in with the federal government,
especially if you didn't have much experience like I did
at the time, So it was I was very lucky,
but also I mean at the same time, like I
got it for myself because I was really determined.

Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah, Like maybe you were lucky that he got fired,
but you also like put in so much work and
time just bugging them, which I feel like goes a
long way. So that's great. Yeah, especially like in this field.
I it's interesting, like the wildlife biology kind of like
environmental field. There's like no set path, which is really cool,
which I appreciate. Like I have had so many weird

(08:54):
jobs over the years, Like I've worked in a bunch
of labs and like in a mine and now I
work with animals every day, So it's like whatever you're doing,
you can still have that job if you try hard
enough and like put in the time. Yeah, like volunteer,
like you said, so you did that for a few
seasons as like a seasonal. So when you got hired
full time, what was it that you were doing?

Speaker 2 (09:16):
I So I was a seasonal field ranger, and it's
called ten thirty nine is the term, because you work
one thousand thirty nine hours in your season and then
once you cap out, you're done, and then you can
come back next year if they want you back or whatever.
So that's what I was doing for a long time.
And I got a seasonal ten thirty nine field ranger
job on the to shoots and then there was and
that was in twenty twenty two, and then twenty twenty

(09:38):
three there was some surprise funding that showed up in
the for service and they're like, hey, we're going to
do this mass hiring event for permanence. And so the
job was already created because it was seasonal, but they
made it a permanent position instead, and I was able
to be directly hired because I'm under Schedule A, which
is disability higher, so I was able to not have

(10:01):
to go through USA jobs and do all the hoops
and be competitive. So I was considered accepted service, which
just means like you're an exception to this probationary one year.
Now you're a two year probationary and you're able to
come in and get vetted and you just have to
do it for two years instead. And I would have
had my two years up this November, So I was

(10:22):
in that permanent position for over a year.

Speaker 1 (10:25):
Gotcha? And what were you doing, like as a ranger?
Because I feel like when I hear the term ranger,
I think, like, you know, you're walking around the woods
waiting for people to like need help or things like that.
So like, what was the specific like stuff that you
were doing.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah, it's such a funny term because ranger, I think
a lot of people think of National Park Service like
with the big hat and yeah, the suit and everything.
And I mean I do have a pickle suit as
what we call it. It's like the green pants with
the tan shirt and the badge. And I did wear
that on like the busier days or if I was
doing more interpretive work or something where I needed to
like look more for fessional because usually I would just

(11:01):
wear my normal field ranger shirt that had like the
badge and like field ranger to shoots. And because I
picked up a lot of trash, so I didn't want
to get my nice uniformal gross. But our field ranger
position was unique for two shoots because usually field rangers
on it's called Region six so Washington State and Oregon,
usually field rangers are more interpretive. It was created as

(11:22):
an interpretive role, but on the shoots they decided to
turn it into a dispersed recreation role, which means like
dispersed is just anywhere remote in the woods, like it's
there's no facilities, it's not designated wilderness. It's just kind
of like that random road you're driving down. You're like,
where am I in the middle of nowhere? That was
my area that I would patrol, and I would do

(11:42):
trash mitigation. I would make sure that people weren't overstaying
their fourteen day limit. Mean dispersed sites, which are free
and unfortunately there is a big houseless homeless issue in
Oregon and just in the country in general, but in
central Orgon we had quite a few people that were
living out in the woodside. I would kind of help
try to work with them, but I'm not a mental

(12:03):
health expert, so it was kind of more like I'd
just passed them along to law enforcement. But speaking of that,
I was a forest protection officer, so I had my
certification to be able to issue citations for legal activity,
and I wrote tickets for people having possession of fireworks,
which is illegal on national forest land. I've written one
for natural resource damage somebody was ripping up a really

(12:25):
nice meadow with their quad. And then as well as
like overcamping a fourteenth day limit. So I have helped
a law enforcement a lot in that role as well.
And then lastly, a big one is campfire like abandoned
campfire mitigation because a lot of people still don't know
how to put how a fire efficiently, which is unfortunate.

(12:45):
But that's why I was out there because I was
able to monitor all these disperse sites that I personally mapped.
I did this whole gis Field maps endeavor where I've
did an entire layout of every single disperse site on
our district, which is a lot. There's hundreds of them.
So I was the main person that controlled that and
made sure that things were clean, people weren't overstaying there,

(13:07):
weren't abandoned campfires, and the legal activity was at a
minimum hopefully. So that was in a nutshell that's what
I did. I did a lot of other stuff too,
but that's like the basics.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah, just before we move on from it, because I
have never thought about this, how do you properly put
out a campfire?

Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yeah, I mean you want to drown it, so you
want to put as much water on it as you can,
and then you want to stir it and drown it again,
and you kind of just like keep doing that until
it no longer steams like you want it to be cold.

Speaker 1 (13:37):
Oh okaytch, so gotcha.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
But a lot of people will just like leave it
with like embers burning, and if you're in like like
wildfire risk behavior type of weather, even just that little
kernel of an ember can be blown by the wind
and create a catastrophic welfare. It happens every year, so
oh yeah, we have to be really serious about in

(14:00):
those out It's just I mean, the West is historically
burning more and more every summer.

Speaker 1 (14:04):
So yeah, did you have to do with any wildfires
like in your area as a ranger?

Speaker 2 (14:10):
Yeah? Many, I in the shoots, I probably worked on
maybe like seven or eight wildfire incidents like big ones.
Before that, I worked on a couple others when I
was on the National Forest as well, So yeah, they're
on quite a few, and not just as a firefighter
type two. I did that when I was younger, and
before I had knee surgery, I was like actually fighting

(14:32):
fire on the line and working on an engine. And
then yeah, and then once I had knee surgery and
I wasn't able to do the pack test, which is
the physical tests that you have to take to make
sure that you are able to do this crazy work
that they do in the field. So I became a
resource advisor and an incident security manager. So I would
help keep the public out of the closures because they

(14:55):
love to go past closures and get themselves in danger. Yeah,
I mean it's a lot of people like are curious
and they just want to take pictures of why they're drone,
which is totally illegal and you can't do that, but
people do it anyways. So I would be there to
make sure that's not happening. And then also with resource
advising is when you go out and you're able to
help identify trees that that you don't want them to

(15:16):
cut or other resources that you're like be careful of this,
like we want to make sure that we protect it.
Because a lot of times firefighters a lot of them
aren't trained in like the ecological side of things, so
they're more focused on their task at hand. They're cutting
trees that are burning, they're digging line their dozers, all
sorts of stuff. So you're there to be like, hey,
make sure you guys aren't getting this one, and they're like, okay, cool.

(15:38):
So yeah, I did that kind of stuff for the
last few years.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
Nice. That's super cool. So did you also ever have
to respond to people who were like in distress or
like lost or anything like that.

Speaker 2 (15:51):
Oh? Yeah, I remember one time there was on the
Upqua this woman was I can't I'm not making this up.
This woman was wearing like a pink tarry suit and
she had like one water bottle and it was empty.
It was like a plastic water boddle. She comes running
up to me because I was picking up trash from
the cxt's the bathrooms at different trailheads. She comes up
to me and she's like, oh my god, can you

(16:12):
give me a ride to my car? I don't know
where I am. I was like, where did you start?
Like where's your car? And she was like, well, I
don't know, I've never done this trail before, and I
was like, do you have any gear? Do do you
have a bag somewhere? Did you set it down? She
said no, I just went with water. And I was
like okay. And this trail was like I think eight
miles one way and she was at the end of it.
That means she had probably hiked that much. And I

(16:34):
was just like, oh my gosh. And we're not supposed
to give people rides in our government vehicles, so I
had to like help her find somebody to give her
a ride. And yeah, I never knew what happened to her.
I was just like, I mean, yeah, like I said,
I can't put you in my truck, but I can
help you find someone else, or I can go to
town and make a phone call. Yeah, that kind of
stuff happens all the time. I've also found a lot

(16:55):
of lost dogs over the years, which was a sopra. Yeah,
sometimes it was sad because I found them deceased, but
other times it was really happy and it was like,
oh my god, we found the family dog.

Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
Yeah, it happens a lot. People get like, especially during
Fourth of July that people will illegally set off fireworks
and then the dogs will go running and then yeah,
I hear about it, and I'll just be driving a
random road and then I'll see a dog and I'm like,
what are you doing here? Yeah? That cat wants too.

Speaker 1 (17:25):
Oh man, oh god. I can't even imagine how many
cats are just like wandering around national forests and parks
and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (17:29):
It's they are really don't last long, which is sad,
but yeah, I have found one that was alive.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
Nice. So how big is the Shoots and like, what
are the main activities that people were doing there?

Speaker 2 (17:43):
The Shoots is massive. I think it's like one point
something million acres. It's really big. Yeah, it's a really
big forest. Especially my district, ben Fort Rock Ranger District
is huge. It's the biggest one of the three. The
other two are Sisters and Crescent and they're both yeah,
pretty small, especially in comparison to BFR. We call it

(18:03):
and our most popular attractions are the Dishoots River. That's
like a big recreation based. People are fishing there, they
were whitewater rafting, floating like it's just a really popular spot.
And then we have a few different wildernesses. We have
the three Sisters of Wilderness Diamond Peak Wilderness, Jefferson Wilderness,
not Washington Wilderness. Like, we have so much beautiful remote

(18:26):
areas and so people go out there to go backpacking
or mountaineering or whatever it is, hiking especially. We have
like a really strict permit system for our wilderness areas
because it's just so overrun with people and we're finding
human waste everywhere and it was just really out of control.
So yeah, it was really bad and a lot of people.
It's very mixed and bend in Central organ It's people.

(18:48):
Some people are really for it and they're great and
supportive of it, and other people are just so against it,
And yeah, that was that's an issue for sure. But yeah,
that's that's like a lot of what people will do.
We have a lot of mountain biking trails, some really
famous ones Fills area. That's a big area that I
used to patrol. And yeah, there's just so much recreation
and so much to do out there, and it's very

(19:11):
prone to fire. It's a very dry forest. In the summer,
you pretty much can only have a campfire basically up
to fourth of July and then it's like all right,
no more.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
Oh man, it's how many people. Do you get a
year there if you know, I.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
Think the number what it was a lot of like
over a million who just because Central Organ, Yeah, Central
organ is a really booming place. It's grown exponentially in
the last twenty years. Every year it just expands more
and more. And that's really hard for the forest because

(19:46):
the forest doesn't get bigger, right, like, it stays the
same size. So it's hard because, yeah, the overuse is
very apparent, and with expansion comes a lot more people
being pushed out, and so then we get more houselessness
in our in our forests. So it's just like a
there's a lot of domino effects that comes with the area.

(20:07):
But it is very popular. We have a scenic byway,
Cascie Lakes Highway. It's really beautiful, so yeah, times of
people will come just to drive that and see the
lakes and the mountains and yeah, it's just it's really beautiful.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
Nice And do you guys have like a lot of
human wildlife conflict with the growing amount of people who
are going into the forest, and like what kinds of
animals do people bump into the most.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
It's not as bad as other places, like in California
with bears. It's not like that. We do have bears,
but they're so skittish and elusive you don't really see
them often at all, and then just shoots. I've seen
them like twice in my few years i've been here,
and that was in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, but no,
I mean, we have a lot of issues with like
the stuff that you normally would see, like people feeding

(20:56):
birds and like little critters like chipmunks, so many squirrels.
And then we also have a really rare species this
year in Nevada, red fox, which is endangered and there's
not very many left in Oregon. And we actually have
a few dens along Casti Lakes Highway and I've seen
them many times driving like they're unfortunately. We have this

(21:19):
one resort on the lake and the employees were feeding
it cheese. Oh it's such a rare animal and they're like, yeah,
he just hangs out with us, and I'm like, oh
my god. Every time i'd see one, I know, every
time I've seen what, I'd report it to Wildlife, the
program at the forest, and yeah, they did a lot
of surveys for them as well. So that was that's

(21:39):
kind of forefront of my mind because I saw them
so much and I saw a lot of public interaction
with them unfortunately.

Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yikes. Yeah, well you're saying too that there was spotted owls,
So do you have spotted owls in the forest that
people keep an eye on?

Speaker 2 (21:53):
Historically? There were, but I mean it's hard because I
think that's kind of like a more like sensitive sea
grit subject that they don't like to share info about.
So I mean, I'll just say historically they have been there,
But I mean we have a lot of issues with
the bar owl and logging and you know, all that
fun stuff that people love to debate about. The timber

(22:15):
wars in Oregon are very famous, so yeah, that's people
still remember that and talk about it. So yeah, it's
it's hard. But when I worked on Unquah, we had
actually a few, quite a few spotted owls that we
had found on surveys. It was really cool. Yeah, and
the tree bowls because they're main food source for them,
so that was like really cool to see those two

(22:36):
nice cool.

Speaker 1 (22:38):
So a lot going on at the place that you
were working at, between like recreation and wildlife wildfires, So
how many rangers were there for my program?

Speaker 2 (22:49):
There was three of us, but one of them was
the supervisor, so he was often in the office doing
program implementation, planning, coordinating, et cetera. So it was me
and one other person that did the entire Benfort Rock
dispersed areas, which is massive. Like I said, it would
take multiple days to drive every road on our district,
Like it's so big and we can't patrol all the time. Yeah,

(23:12):
we have other things we're doing too, Like we're creating signs,
We're helping with trails, we're helping with closures with fire,
we're assisting other programs like developed recreation in the busy
time because they just get so overwhelmed. So yeah, I
mean now that I'm gone because I have been fired,
it was you know, there's only one person now to
patrol that whole area. Wow, it's just crazy. Yeah, And

(23:34):
I mean we have law enforcement, but they're busy, like
they are constantly getting calls, Like they can't just patrol
around and like do what we do, Like they have
to have specific mission points.

Speaker 1 (23:45):
Yeah. Also not to mention like you were saying, it's
not like they have the environmental background and wherewithal like
that is very specific to your position. So yeah, let's
get into what your termination was like and how you
were told what was going down, like what your supervisors
knew or didn't know, that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
Yeah, so it was all shocking. I mean, ever since
the new administration came in, it's just been a chaotic mess.
But there were some things before them, because I think
it's really important to identify this because I think some
people don't acknowledge it because it's there's so much other
things happening that it's like, Yeah, So in December under Biden,

(24:29):
we had this order that we couldn't hire any seasonal
ten thirty nine employees for the summer. Just never happened before.
We're like, what, we rely so hard on our seasonals,
that's insane. So that was the first big blow. So
we were already and we were already understaffed too, like
the federal government, like the for Service, like we even
when we got funding for permanents, still was like kind

(24:51):
of putting a band aid on an open wound. You know,
it's like it helps for now, but like, you know,
we need more. So then fast forward, all these different
executive orders are coming out. People are starting to feel
like uncertain and confused and then on January thirtieth, our
connect HR, which is our Human Resources information there was
a message on the dashboard that said, starting today, you

(25:15):
and your supervisor will no longer have access to your
performance evaluations. Will update when that changes, and we were like,
that's really weird. Why are performance evaluations being blocked? That's
really strange. I mean we didn't like download and save
these because they've always just been a portal. We've never
and you don't usually need them to prove employment either.
It usually s F fifty, which is your employee form.

(25:37):
And then just the evaluations are like and I was, great,
here you go. I mean I've never used them in
a job application. It's just like if they want to
see them, they can. But anyways, so that was weird.
And then there was all this talk of like, oh,
make sure you know, identify everyone who's probationary and in
their permanent role, and it was just like, okay, that's weird.

(25:59):
And then a bunch of us got emails from HR
that just all it said was you are a probationary employee.
And I never got one, and neither did one of
my other coworkers, and we were both probationary which just
to give listeners a background on that is. Probationary just
means it's like your trial period before you're vetted and
put into competitive service, so that you can apply for

(26:22):
all the different permanent positions without having to do the
whole USA jobs go through all the hoops, et cetera.
You can just apply from internally and then it's way
easier and it's really competitive for a reason, because that's
a great position to be in, to be able to
just move around. That's how you advance your career, and
there's so many different opportunities. So anyways, probationary is kind
of like making sure you're not a piece of shit,

(26:43):
I guess for back of a better term, like if
you really suck, it gives you that jurisdiction you have
to cause though, right, yeah, it has to be either
poor misconduct just like you're doing illegal stuff or things
that's wildly inappropriate or whatever it may be. Or you
have performance evaluations, which every quarter of the year we
have we sit down with our supervisor and we go through, Okay,

(27:06):
what are your goals in your position for this summer
whatever time of year it is, and then okay, how
did you do on this last quarter. You're either fully
successful or you're not successful, and then there is an't
in between, but it's usually one or the other. And
I've always gotten fully successful for all my performance evaluations.
So yeah, anyways, all this weird talk about who's probationary

(27:27):
who's not, and so everyone was on edge. And this
was like a week before the firings. And then on Friday,
February fourteenth, that's when we learned that the one year
probationary periods on our forest this is just from my
perspective on our forests were fired, which included a ten
year Marine Corps veteran who was a deputy district ranger,
which was wild to me. Wow, worked in the Peace Corps,

(27:50):
lived in Third world countries, like amazing human he got
fired and then yeah, and then like a bunch of
other people, and so I was like, maybe I'm safe
then because I didn't get fired on the fourteenth, Okay.
And then the next day, which is the weekend, and
it's the President's Day weekend, so it's a holiday weekend,
a lot of people on vacation, they're out of town.
It's the weekend, so HR human Resources closed, you know,

(28:14):
all this stuff. So anyways, I get a call at
three pm. I didn't recognize the number and it was
the forest supervisor, who's like the top of the chain
on your forest, and then about that is regional and
she calls me and said, I'm so sorry, but you
are being terminated. And I just was like I wasn't
like in total shock because I kind of saw it coming,
because I was just like, this is all so crazy,

(28:36):
but it was so heart wrenching, like I went through
all the stages agree and that whole weekend like crying
and being really angry and just trying to figure out
like what is this? What is happening? And on my
letter she had told me because she called me first
before she sent me the email with my termination letter,
she was like, just so you know, this does not
reflect what we think. This comes from higher up. This

(28:59):
I'm so sorry. And I read it and it said
you know, based on your performance, the agency no longer
sees you being in public interest, which is insane. And
not for a second did I question myself and think
what Like I was like, no, that's just that's just
not true. That's a total lie. That's insane.

Speaker 1 (29:18):
Wow. I just when it started happening. I was like,
I don't understand how these people are being told, like, hey,
based on your performance, which has been fully successful for years,
you're not good enough for the public anymore. So One,
it's like, then, who is Two? This is coming from
people who don't even know you, Like even the woman
who called you. It's not like she works with you

(29:40):
close enough to even give you a performance evaluation, right.

Speaker 2 (29:44):
No, she's I mean we interact because it's like the borest,
like we go to meetings and stuff together. But yeah, no,
I don't work directly with her ever. It's she's very
high up on the chains. Yeah, it was. It was weird,
and I mean, yeah, there's everything that's been rolling out
since then has just been so bizarre and strange, and
it's all so illegal. And I cannot stress that enough

(30:07):
because there's people that are saying, no, it's not it's like,
this is not an opinion. It is just legitimately not legal.
You can't argue with that. Yeah, because OPM, the Office
of Personnel Management, they're like the government HR, like overarching
all these government agencies is OPM, and they do not
have the power to fire people within specific agencies only

(30:28):
your agency has that power. Yet all these agencies just
went with it and we're like, Okay, we'll fire them.
This sucks, but we'll do it. And it's like, you know,
hindsight twenty twenty. But it's like, why do they even
do that? So now I'm feeling all these different emotions.
Obviously I am disgusted by your musk and Doge and
the administration is making horrible, terrible decisions regarding our public

(30:52):
lands and our agencies and our federal workers. Like it's
just like, why are you talking us, Like we are
doing such amazing work and we matter. It's just wild
to me. Yeah, I mean, it's just all so strange
and really unfortunate.

Speaker 1 (31:06):
Yeah, so let's get into so OPM you were saying,
is the one who's been telling these agencies like, hey,
here's who you need to let go.

Speaker 2 (31:14):
Yeah, so they DOGE basically told them, and then they
told the agencies and that's yeah. We've been getting emails
from like weird sources like it's coming from OPM and
it's it's just yeah. And the titles of the emails
were so strange, like fork in the Road, which was bizarre,
which I know some people that took it and they've

(31:35):
still never gotten anything from it as well, which I'm like,
please don't take that deal. It was waving away your rights.
It's so vague. So yeah, it was just yeah, like
none of the direction made any sense, and this has
never happened before ever, Like this is all completely new
and just so out of left field.

Speaker 1 (31:58):
Yeah. I guess that's another thing I didn't understand is
if this order is coming from out of your agency
and like your district supervisor or whichever was like, hey,
we don't agree with this, then I mean, are they
legally obligated to follow that or could they just been
like no, actually, we're just going to keep her on
and keep paying her.

Speaker 2 (32:19):
So that's a great question because it's a lot of
us were wondering too, and there was whisperings and different
talks of well the supervisors were threatened that they would
yet fired if they didn't fire these people. I don't
I mean, again, that's your say. I mean a lot
of people have been saying that, so I'm going to
assume that that's probably true, and I wouldn't be a surprise.

(32:40):
But yeah, it's just like, yeah, I feel all these
mixed emotions towards the people that made these decisions in
the first place of doje OPM, which is like awful.
But then I'm now I'm looking at the other agencies
and I'm thinking, like, why don't you have our backs,
Like why don't you guys standing up for us and
saying no, Because it's like it's that saying right, like

(33:00):
like I was just following orders doesn't fly, and that's
it's not going to fly, Like you need to be
able to stand up to what's right and what's legal.
Like there are lawyers with the National Federation of Federal Employees,
which is our union, that we're saying all of this
is illegal. You guys like work in the road email
that's not legal. They can't allocate funds when it's not

(33:22):
allocated yet. It was only funded through March fourteenth, and
you know, for the government. And then it's like they're saying, oh,
but we'll pay you to sit on your ass until September.
It's like you can't say that because you don't know
you actually will be able to do that. And yeah,
so anyways, it's just like all these decisions and all
of these like acceptances of all this stuff happening is

(33:45):
just so berserk and I am so wildly confused.

Speaker 1 (33:49):
Yeah, I know, you know, it's funny going back to
what you were saying, where like this started in December.
I do remember seeing that where it was like, oh, yeah,
there's no more hiring for the Forest Service. But I
was like, wow, no more seasonals, Like that's gonna be
a crazy amount of people looking for jobs. Then this
started happening, and you know, I've seen there's one Republican guy.
I don't know his name because I don't care to
remember them, frankly, but he was saying like, oh, yeah, well,

(34:11):
there's like ninety three percent job creation in the private sector,
which is how it should be. It's like, first of all,
like of how many jobs coming from yeah, like ten
new jobs. But like specifically in our field, it's not
like anyone's making brand new wildlife jobs in the private
sector or brand new environmental jobs, like it just doesn't happen.
And that's why these people were going, like you for

(34:32):
federal jobs because it was secure, you get good benefits,
and it's like a lifelong career path for your wee
can like there's structured ways for you to go up
the ladder, but that doesn't really exist anywhere else. So
like now now what like what are where does everyone stand?
Like what are you guys doing?

Speaker 2 (34:54):
Yeah, and there's the job market is like really flooded.
Like I have a friend who worked for the forest
over in Colorado and she's like talking her the other
day and she's like, I've been applying to so many
jobs and I've only heard back from one and it
was a seasonal job, which it's like, we're permanent. We
don't want to go back to being seasonal. Yeah, that
was so hard. It's like so hard having to find

(35:15):
a new job every you know, end of the year,
of the summer. It's like it's just not feasible, and
like some people will do the unemployment route, but a
lot of people couldn't get unemployment. So yeah, it's just
it's I mean, yeah, I mean it's just wild too,
because the federal government was already wildly understaffed and it's
like now you're firing all these people which are supposedly

(35:36):
supposed to be reinstated, but we haven't heard a peep
about it, Like I've nothing, I have no idea.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
Yeah, I was curious about that. So we're recording this Monday,
the seventeenth of March, and I think it was this
past Thursday that a few judges were like, hey, you
guys can't do this. And I know when you and
I were talking, You're like, well, maybe I'll get reinstated.
And I've heard some people say like, yeah, they're going
to reinstate us so that they can correctly fire us.
So like there's still no update, Like you haven't heard

(36:03):
anything from your previous supervisors.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
No, So it's really strange because also nobody even reached
out to us that we were being reinstated. We had
to read it in the news. We were like, uh, okay,
and my supervisor caught my prior supervisor in the field
in your program called me and he was like, I'm
so excited. I hope you and get you reinstated. Like
I don't know anything yet though, and I was like, okay,
I haven't heard anything yet either, because I thought I

(36:26):
was going to get an email or something, and I
was like, oh gosh, I hope they didn't like send
it to my government email that I no longer have
access to, like you know, just like thinking things like that,
and it's like, yeah, no, one knows anything. The region
didn't know. I got this like random deposit in my
account and I called HR and I was like, what's
this deposit? And like we don't know. It's like what
the came from you? It was so strange. I'm assuming

(36:51):
it's back pay, but it's like, because that would make
sense because it was a weird amount because it was
for like a week and a half because we were
fired mid pay period. But yeah, it's like I shouldn't
have to assume and guess, like, yeah, why is no
one providing us information? Why is this not happening? Like
this is so strange. It makes me like really upset
because it's like it took you guys, like the drop

(37:13):
of a hat to fire us, and now getting us
back is just this massive miscommunication struggle. Like I don't know,
it's just like one thing after the other. And those
of us, I'm sure I can speak for a lot
of people here, those of us that were fired recently
from this whole event whatever you want to call it,
we're just so exhausted, Like we're so beaten down, we're tired,

(37:35):
We're like really over just being jerked around and like
not told what's going on. So yeah, a lot of
us are just looking for other jobs because we're like,
I don't know if I'm even going to be reinstated.
And if I am magically reinstated, there's a huge reduction
force happening soon, which is RIFF stands for reduction in force,
and the Forest Service is seeing that they're probably going

(37:57):
to be legally cutting seven thousand people. And this will
be legal because it's reduction in force, which is done
by your agency, like they decide which positions which reduction
in force has happened in the past. It happened under Clinton,
and that again is legal. So that's why that's another
point I want to make because some people are like
people get fired all the time. Clinton fire all these people,

(38:18):
and like, no, that was reduction force. That was legal.
This is not. This is not legal. That what happened
to us. But yeah, so it's like if I get restated,
am I just going to be riffed? Like so it's
like I can't put all my eggs in that basket
because I need to work. I need to make money,
Like I didn't make much money and I don't have
a savings and yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
Yeah, not to mention too, like the weird tension of
being brought back and being like, hey, you didn't stick
up for me, Like, and now I feeling so slighted
by this place that I work at because like there's
no support for me and I don't feel like valued.
Like that also fucking sucks.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
Yeah, it really does. It really fucking sucks.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
Oh man. Yeah, And you know the amount of people
who like this is your life, so you live there,
you live near your work, like, so now what you're
just expected to like sit around and wait, but like
you still have things to pay for because also everything's
stupid expensive nowadays. So like I just how how can

(39:20):
you guys like people like you, how can you find support?
How can people like me who are not in this
position support you? What can we do?

Speaker 2 (39:28):
That's a really nice question, I think for me, Like
right now, I'm trying not to be super negative because
it's really easy to go down that rabbit hole with
all the stuff that's happened and what's happening. But it's like, realistically,
like I need to be able to talk about this stuff.
So I think just people asking into questions and trying

(39:49):
to figure out the truth because I keep getting people
saying new things like, hooray, you're reinstated. I heard you
got your job back. No, didn't get my job back.
I don't know what's going on with that, and it
might get riffed anyways. So yeah, and I mean people meanwhile,
and I'm not saying that to slight them by a means,
but it's just like, I just hope people keep trying
to find all the truth and ask questions because that's

(40:10):
really really important in times like these where there's a
lot of misnomers and a lot of chaos and division.
So that's one thing. And then also just calling your
reps and your senators and just telling them, like how
you feel about everything that's going on, Like hey, like
reinstate these people that you fired, Like make sure that
you protect the people that you boast to be leader for. Like,

(40:34):
you know, I think it's really important right now to
call out people that have power because a lot of
them aren't using it correctly and it's really frustrating to watch.
Like I went to the State of the Union as
a guest for one of the representatives in Oregon, and
I had to sit through Trump's speech like in person,
twelve seats over from Elon Musk and it's like the

(40:55):
only person that stood up during that entire speech was
Al Green and it was amazing. I was like so
glad he did. But then the rest of them didn't
do anything. And it's like, I mean they had like
signs and were yelling, you know, here and there, but
it was like, I'm stuck in this room with seventy
five percent conservatives that are cheering on this guy talking
about drill baby drill and renaming Denali back to the

(41:17):
colonizer McKinley, and like, you know, people are like gleefully
smiling and cheering. I'm just like so repulsed and in
like hell, it was like I'm witnessing this cult. This
is so strange. Yeah, So I just feel like people
need to call people out and protest and take a
stand because when we're complacent, that's when they win. That's

(41:39):
what they want. They don't want you to do anything.
So that's that's what I would say.

Speaker 1 (41:44):
That was a hell of an answer.

Speaker 2 (41:45):
That was great, lot of fact there.

Speaker 1 (41:49):
Oh yeah, we could talk for like hours about that.
But like, so what you mentioned about like drill baby drill,
I feel like there's also been talk of opening up
forests for logging. So also, like, where does the environment
stand right now? Is it that we're trying to reduce
people like you who are doing really good work for
the environment to employ people who are going to destroy it? Like,

(42:09):
what's what's going on there?

Speaker 2 (42:11):
Yeah, that's a big topic right now. And I want
to preface this by saying I don't believe that logging
and timber is bad. I think that it's good to
have logging when it's sustainable and monitored. And that's why
NIPA is so great, because you know, the Environmental Protection
Act is really important for ensuring that we're not like

(42:32):
just clear cutting again like we used to, because that
was detrimental for our forest ecosystem. So it's not that
I'm anti logging by any means, but yeah, what's happening
is that you know, now our new for service chief,
like the top guy. His name is Tom Schultz, and
he is a timber private timber lobbyist from Idaho who
worked for forest products groups and he does have experience

(42:55):
working with state and some federal but like he's the
first ever chief that does not have any for service experience,
and that's I don't think a good thing, because you
need to have some kind of context and understanding, and
people work so hard to get into that position as well.
And yeah, I mean he's canceled a bunch of calls,
like he's terrified of people because no one wants him there,

(43:16):
because a very no one is excited for him, I
should say, in the Forest Service, except maybe a couple
people from Timber. So it's just like I am worried
about our forests, and I think a lot that's happening
as they're trying to really take away, Like I mean,
there's like stuff being talked about with the Endangered Species
Act ANIFA and all these other things just being attacked

(43:38):
and trying to be lessened, so there's less red tape,
which I will say I understand because sometimes it was
frustrating in the field with all this red tape of
being like we can't get anything done, so we have
to do all these steps, but you have to remember,
like those steps are so important and they're there for
a reason, and by stripping those away, we're literally going
back in time. And it's like, you know, Theodore Roosevelt's
like rolling around his grave right now, like no, no,

(44:00):
what's happened?

Speaker 1 (44:02):
Yeah, Well you saying that about Tom Schultz if that
was his name. Yeah, I'm sure I'll forget that because
it sounds like he sucks. But it just reminds me that,
you know, the federal government is supposed to be which
I know is a hot take for some people, but
like it's supposed to be there to support us as
citizens of this country. And it seems like a lot

(44:23):
of the decisions being made are like business decisions, and
it sounds like the new head of the for Service
is a business guy, which doesn't make a lot of
sense for an organization that's supposed to protect land and
not sell it out to private people. So that's super cool.
Love that for us.

Speaker 2 (44:43):
It's all calculated. Yeah, it's all calculated. This is like
a big plan, Like, yeah, it's they want they want
to take more resources and we don't have as much
as I think he likes to think there is like
the most timber we guys from Canada for a reason,
like we don't have as much as Canada.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
Yeah, so, oh man, Well, if he gets his way,
it'll be like another part of the United States anyway,
so it'll be his So we'll see. Oh man, Okay,
So where what's next for you specifically, Where are you
at right now?

Speaker 2 (45:16):
Yeah, I'm well, right now, I'm at a retreat and it's
with this awesome nonprofit that they have this house here
in Tiber's, California, and we're just a bunch of us
that were fired from the federal government are here just
kind of getting away and change of scenery and just
to reset and relax. And the nonprofits called American Wildfire

(45:37):
Experience and this woman named Bethany runs it and she's awesome.
So it's nice being able to be here and just
kind of like chill and get away because you know,
there's just so much stress and intensity that's been happening
in my life. And I am looking for other jobs because,
like I said, I don't trust that I'm actually going
to be reinstated, and then if I am, I won't

(45:58):
be legally laid off in the riff. So yeah, I mean,
I'm I'm looking for other jobs. And it's it's really sad,
like I'm I'm grieving, Like it feels like a really
bad breakup, like I got dumped and then they're telling
me they want me back, but like do they really
I don't think so, And it's like it's just really
hard because like I put my heart and soul into

(46:19):
this work, and I put so much into the agency
working for the US for Service, and it's like it's
not an easy decision, and like that's why I'm so
bittersweet about it, because it's like, on the one hand,
like I gave my all and I really loved my job.
I love my coworkers, I love working for the Forest Service.
But now I'm like, I don't think that it's our
time anymore. I think I think we need space, and yeah,

(46:42):
I'll come back maybe when you get your shit together.
Who knows when that'll be, maybe four years, I don't know. Yeah,
but it's like, yeah, so I'm I'm that's what I'm doing.
I'm just looking for other work and just trying to
keep myself afloat and also stay sane at the same time.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
Yeah, for sure. So do you know of any resources
for like how did you find this retreat for example,
and like other other resources like that for other people
who have been wrongfully terminated.

Speaker 2 (47:08):
Yeah. I founded on social media on Instagram. Actually, somebody
had sent it to me who I used to work
with and fire and she said, hey, my friend has
this nonprofit and there's she's offering this retreat for fired FEDS,
like are you interested? And I said, yeah, that sounds awesome,
and I looked up where it was and I was like, oh,
that's only like an eight and a half hour drive
from ben, so yeah, I'll go. And she's from the

(47:30):
USDA who was fired, and there's another guy from BLM
and I don't know where the other person is from
because she's not here yet, but yeah. So social media
has been pretty amazing actually, Like that's how I was
discovered to be asked to go to the State of
the Union was through Instagram. Her Janelle Bien's staff reached
out to me and said, hey, do you want to

(47:51):
go to DC?

Speaker 3 (47:53):
And I was like, wow, okay, so cool and then yeah,
and then I had people sending me different like support groups,
like on Signal because it's non encrypted and there's.

Speaker 2 (48:03):
A lot of us that we're terminated, and we're in
group chats and kind of talking and comparing experiences and
being like, hey, did you hear anything about this?

Speaker 1 (48:10):
No?

Speaker 2 (48:11):
Did you get this email?

Speaker 1 (48:12):
No?

Speaker 2 (48:12):
So it's good how much community there is out there,
and I made friends with so many people I never
would have probably met yeah, but without being fired. And yeah,
so I think I think for resources, definitely share your stories.
And I know it's really scary. A lot of people
are really terrified to speak out and talk to the
news or post on social media. But it's like, this
is the time to do it, you guys. Like, I

(48:34):
know it's scary, and I won't shame anybody for not
doing it, not at all. It's very valid. It is scary,
but man, like, it's so important right now to do that.
And it's like it's humanizing too, because we're not just
a number that was tossed to the ground, like we're people.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:50):
So, yeah, I think that's really important. And yeah, so
I would say social media, there's a lot of amazing
stuff on there, people reaching out and offering different retreats
and support services. So that's that's something that I would recommend.

Speaker 1 (49:05):
Yeah. Well, speaking of thank you for coming on to
share your story with me and all of us. So
speaking of social media, where can people find you on
social media?

Speaker 2 (49:15):
Yeah? I have an Instagram And it's funny because before
all this stuff happened, I've always had a different name
and it's always been private because I never didn't want
to be found story Shore. I used to have a stalker,
so I I was very careful about. Yeah, well he
probably can find me now because I'm in the news
and it's all public now. No, that was a long

(49:36):
time ago, but yeah, so I'm on Instagram at Oregon
Huntress is the name. You can find me on there. Talk.
I'm happy to talk. Send me memes. Yeah, the Existential
Dread at Bay. Yeah, that's my main source. I have
a TikTok, but I'm an elder millennial and I don't
know how to use it that well.

Speaker 1 (49:57):
So yeah, I feel you. I don't know what generation
of Minna was in ninety seven, and I like, I
don't get TikTok still. Yeah, yeah, so I think I'm
like towards the very end of it, but I still
am like, I don't get how to do this. So
I feel you awesome. Well, thank you so much, Liz,
And we will keep in touch and as things like,

(50:18):
especially on our Instagram, like, as things progress and you
share them, I will keep sharing them and keep people
updated on what's happening with our federal employees.

Speaker 2 (50:25):
So absolutely, and I'll let you know if I hear anything.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
Oh, please do fingers crossed for you, but also, like
fingers crossed, you find something else that's different and better.
So yeah, thank you again to Liz for sharing your
story with all of us After our recording. On March

(50:50):
twenty seventh, Liz posted a video to her Instagram saying
that she was indeed offered her job back as a
ranger at the National Forest after a month of being
in limbo. She told them she needed a few days
to think about it because she had been job searching
and had a few offers. After some consideration, Liz ultimately
decided to turn down her ranger position because of her

(51:11):
distrust of the current administration and fear that her job
would be eliminated anyways if the Trump administration goes along
with a reduction in force. She said, this isn't a
goodbye to the federal government. It's a see you later.
She will continue to advocate and stand up for what
she thinks is right, but for now it won't be
as a federal employee. Alex Trautmann from her last episode

(51:32):
was reinstated to his position and went back to work
on March twenty fifth, and his agency said he would
be receiving back pay, but he was unsure when that
would happen. Cheyenne was also reinstated, but last we spoke
about it, she didn't know when this would happen, but
the USDA told her they were working on it. As
of a few days before this recording, the USDA said
most of it's five seven hundred and fourteen reinstated probationary

(51:56):
employees are still unpaid administrative leave, but that status temporary
and a quote initial step toward returning employees fully to work.
With some critical thinking, you may begin to notice that
paying employees for not doing their jobs is in fact
not an efficient use of our time or federal funds.
And that is actually my opinion, but also kind of
a fact. These reinstatements come after two federal judges ordered

(52:20):
agencies to reinstate their recently fired probationary employees. One judge
in Maryland found that the firings amounted to large scale
reduction of forces, which are subject to very specific rules
of how they're conducted. Another judge in California ruled that
the Office of Personnel Management does not have the authority
to direct government wide layoffs. Following this, Republican House Speaker

(52:43):
Mike Johnson said and I quote, we do have the
authority over the federal courts. As you know, we can
eliminate an entire district court. We have power of funding
over the courts, and all of these other things end quote.
Although many people are being reinstated and returning to work,
per a January twentieth order from Trump, remote work has

(53:05):
been terminated, meaning many employees are now having to report
to offices that do not have the space or resources
for them, with NPR reporting that many offices don't even
have adequate computers, parking spaces, or toilet paper for employees,
and some people are being assigned duty stations not even
the same part of the country that they live in.

(53:25):
Trump has also previously stated that employees who do not
physically show up to their assigned office will be terminated.
All right, let's hear another story of someone who is
terminated in what ended up happening to them. This story

(53:46):
is from Catherine Brainerd. In her words, quote, I started
working at Badland's National Park last March through a ten
and a half month AmeriCorps Mount Adams Institute internship called
Vet's Work Program. It's for vets Rans who want to
do something in the natural resources field. I was in
the Navy for five and a half years, got out

(54:06):
and went to school for Natural resources park management. After graduation,
I found the internship, applied, and was accepted. My internship
ended at the end of January, and after that I
was to start my first permanent position with the NPS
the National Park Service at Appomattox Courthouse National Historical Park.
It's where Lee surrendered to Grant. I would have been

(54:28):
an interpretive ranger, so giving programs and staffing the visitor
center desk. My internship ended January twenty fourth, and I
was to start my permanent position on February ninth. I
had my lease signed, furniture bought and ordered, accounts moved,
and things all set up to move down there. Then
January twenty third, I got the email saying my job

(54:49):
had been rescinded. By rescinding the job offer, the job
I had gotten just ceased to exist due to the
new Administration's Executive Order on Federal Jobs.

Speaker 2 (55:00):
Quote.

Speaker 1 (55:01):
Because this position just ceased to exist, Catherine wasn't one
of the people to be reinstated, so she's now unemployed,
still looking for a new opportunity. After having everything in place,
to start this position. I'll list her public Instagram handle
in the episode description if anyone would like to contact her.
We had one more story, but the individual would like
to now remain anonymous and had quite a bit to say,

(55:23):
so I'll be publishing their story on our website's blog
and our Patreon. All right, that is it for our
two part episode series on the federal terminations happening. To
those of you still listening and those of you who
reached out with positive words for me and all of
those who shared their stories. Thank you so much to

(55:43):
all of you being reinstated or waiting to hear back
on new job opportunities. Best of luck to you. We
are all rooting for you. If we'd like to contact
Liser Catherine, their information will be in the episode description,
along with places you can find this podcast on social
media and a link to our website, which is just
get Out a Live podcast dot com. Thank you so

(56:03):
much to Josh Walsh for making our intro music and
Jesse Walsh for editing. And we will see you in
our next episode with an animal tech story told by
the person who survived it. See you then,