March 4, 2024 • 49 mins
Our first guest for 2024 is Jodi Rodgers. Jodi is a sexologist, counsellor and special education teacher and has a Masters in Sexual Health. For Jodi, connection, intimacy and relationships are a basic human right and this drives her work, in particular with autistic people to support developing their social skills and understanding their emotions. Jodi’s appeared on the series Love on the Spectrum Australia, working with some of the show’s participants. Her new book, Unique: What autism can teach us about difference, connection and belonging has just been released and draws on her 30 years’ of experience.
Find out more about Jodi at birdsandbees.com.au
More info:
Aspect - Aspect is Australia's largest national service provider for people on the autism spectrum.
Yellow Ladybugs - Yellow Ladybugs is a non-government organisation, dedicated to the happiness, success and celebration of autistic girls, women and gender diverse individuals.
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Produced, hosted and edited by Emily Webb, ermha365 Advocacy and External Communications Advisor with Karenza Louis-Smith, CEO ermha365.
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ermha365 provides mental health and disability support for people in Victoria and the Northern Territory. Find out more about our services at our website.
ermha365 acknowledges that our work in the community takes place on the Traditional Lands of many Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples and therefore respectfully recognise their Elders, past and present, and the ongoing Custodianship of the Land and Water by all Members of these Communities.
We recognise people with lived experience who contribute to GET REAL podcast, and those who love, support and care for them. We recognise th
ermha365 provides mental health and disability support for people in Victoria and the Northern Territory. Find out more about our services at our website.
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ermha365 acknowledges that our work in the community takes place on the Traditional Lands of many Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples and therefore respectfully recognise their Elders, past and present, and the ongoing Custodianship of the Land and Water by all Members of these Communities.
We recognise people with lived experience who contribute to GET REAL podcast, and those who love, support and care for them. We recognise their strength, courage and unique perspective as a vital contribution so that we can learn, grow and achieve better outcomes together.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Team at ermha365 (00:00):
Get Real is recorded on the unseeded lands
of the Boonwurrung andWurundjeri peoples of the Kulin
Nation.
We acknowledge and pay ourrespects to their elders, past
and present.
We also acknowledge that thefirst peoples of Australia are
the first storytellers, thefirst artists and the first
creators of culture, and wecelebrate their enduring
(00:21):
connections to country,knowledge and stories.
Welcome to Get Real talkingmental health and disability
brought to you by the team atermha 365.
Join our hosts, emily Webb andKarenza Louis Smith, as we have
frank and fearless conversationswith special guests about all
(00:42):
things mental health andcomplexity.
We recognise people with livedexperience of mental health and
disability, as well as theirfamilies and carers.
We recognise their strength,courage and unique perspective
as a vital contribution to thispodcast so we can learn, grow
(01:05):
and achieve better outcomestogether.
Jodi Rodgers (01:11):
Somebody sent me a message the other day an
autistic person who's actuallyread the book and she said to me
when I read your book, I feltseen, I'm not writing a book
about a lived experience ofautism, I've written a book
about what it's like when youhang out with autistic people
(01:32):
every single day for many, manyyears.
What that has actually taughtme.
Welcome to Get Real talkingmental health and disability.
Emily Webb (01:44):
I'm Emily Webb.
I'm joined by erma 365 CEO andco-host, karenza Louis Smith.
Hey, karenza, it's great to beback for the year.
It's awesome and I'm reallyexcited to be back podcasting
and I'm really excited for thisconversation this morning too.
Karenza Louis-Smith (02:00):
I know you are, because we were talking
about it yesterday in a meeting,weren't we?
Emily Webb (02:07):
We were.
We were Now.
Our guest today is Jodi Rogers.
Jodi is a sexologist,counsellor and special education
teacher, and has a master's insexual health.
For Jodi, connection, intimacyand relationships are a basic
human right, and this drives herwork in particular with
autistic people to supportdeveloping their social skills
(02:29):
and understanding their emotions.
Jodi's appeared on the seriesLove on the Spectrum Australia,
working with some of the show'sparticipants.
Her new book, unique whatAutism Can Teach Us About
Difference, connection andBelonging, has just been
released.
Welcome, jodi.
Jodi Rodgers (02:46):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Emily Webb (02:48):
Jodi, I've rewatched some episodes of Love on the
Spectrum in preparation for thisconversation and I'm looking
forward to asking you more aboutit.
But first of all, my burningquestion is what is a sexologist
?
Exactly, because, from whatI've read of your work and I saw
on Love on the Spectrum, it'san area of real importance for
(03:09):
people's wellbeing.
Jodi Rodgers (03:10):
Definitely You've asked me the question that I get
asked at every party I go to.
When people say, what do you do?
And you lead in with the line,oh, I'm a sexologist, everybody
goes.
What is that?
So basically, it's any person.
I mean some people callthemselves a sex therapist.
I don't call myself a sextherapist, I call myself a
(03:31):
sexologist.
But if you think of any ology,it means that you have studied
that area with a master's degreelevel of qualification.
So for me, I have a master'sdegree in sexual health
counselling, which is basicallygoing to university for a long
time to learn every single thingabout human sexuality.
(03:53):
So yeah, I'm very, verypassionate about it.
Yeah, I'll talk about it forhours, which is a problem at a
party because I'll get peoplestuck in corners, go whoa, do
you want to know?
I'll tell you.
Karenza Louis-Smith (04:05):
And I've been interested, like you've
been doing this for like 30 oddyears it's quite a long time
around connection andrelationships and education, and
I think it's really it's areally important conversation.
You know, and you're clearlyway ahead of your time, I think,
with the work that you're doingand it feels like, well, I
don't even know if society isreally catching up.
You know, like what you justsaid, you know what on earth is
(04:26):
that.
You know there's so manyquestions about it.
Tell us about why you're sopassionate about this work and
why you do what you do.
Jodi Rodgers (04:34):
Karinza, I think for me, relationships is, I'd
say, the most important thingabout our lives.
So for me, my relationships arevery, very important.
All of my connection withpeople is what provides me with
a sense of well-being, providesme with a deep sense of
belonging, and it gives mepurpose, really.
(04:55):
But it started for me when Iwas my undergraduate.
I might have been I've got fourdifferent qualifications, which
is a weird thing but I wasworking in a special school, a
time segregated special schoolfor adolescents, and it was in
the 90s.
This tells everybody how old Iam, but it was in the early
(05:16):
1990s and at that pointdisability service standards had
just come into being, so itmeant that every person with
disability had a right to thesame education as every other
person.
In Australia.
It was a long time ago, if youthink about it in that way.
I was in a school with 200adolescent young people, all who
(05:36):
had an intellectual disabilityor sometimes complex physical
disabilities as well, and wewere talking a lot about
employment and of course,employment is integrally
important and we were talkingabout independent skills and
daily living skills.
And I just kept thinking whatabout relationships?
Well, because we all know inour adult lives, that
(05:57):
relationships are very, veryimportant, and back then, if you
put the word sex and disabilityin the same sentence, people
got really, really freaked outby that.
Karenza Louis-Smith (06:08):
I don't know that that's changed a lot
either.
I think, jodie, when you thinkabout some of the kind of we
talk a lot about stigma anddiscrimination here, I think,
when we have frank and fearlessconversations on Get Real and
there's this kind of why wouldpeople with a disability have
sex?
Kind of sense, and let's bereally honest about it out there
in the community, you know, andI think you're talking about,
those relationships are basicintegral human need, right.
Jodi Rodgers (06:32):
We are sexual beings from the moment we are
born until the moment we die,and when people think about sex,
they just go straight forheterosexual, penetrative,
reproductive sex.
That's what they think about.
But our sexuality involves oursensuality, our self-esteem, our
body image, our assertiveskills, our ability to know what
(06:55):
we like and don't like, ourcapacity to communicate that
with somebody else.
It's for me, it's a completeexpression of self, and so
because it's got the word sex init, we immediately just go to
one thing it's a huge area ofour lives, including our
relationships and our capacityto be intimate with one another
(07:15):
and be vulnerable.
So it's not just about physicalintimacy, it's about emotional
intimacy and communication andthings like that.
So for me, I just startedrealising, as I was very early
years in my teaching, but thenit just kept on being an ongoing
theme.
Karenza Louis-Smith (07:35):
Well, with any teenager.
It's going to be an ongoingtheme, right?
Jodi Rodgers (07:37):
Oh, definitely right, and I was saying straight
there in front of me as a youngwoman but it's what Emily said
too I am hugely passionate aboutupholding our human rights, and
for me, the human right thatevery single person should be
able to receive information in away that's accessible to them
and understandable to thembecame an ongoing theme
(08:00):
throughout my life.
And then it just was going OK,well, if all of us can get
access to counsellors, even forsomething like grief counselling
, but people with intellectualdisability where was the access
to that?
Or you know.
And then it went torelationship counselling and
sexuality counselling, so itjust became something that I
really think is fundamentallyintegral for every single person
(08:23):
.
I agree.
Emily Webb (08:26):
Yeah, we were talking about that the other day
about, yeah, just the stigmaaround thinking that people with
intellectual disability or, youknow, complex physical
disability, they're not sexualbeings and we know that they are
.
And you can't limit, especiallywith teenagers I've got teenage
daughters you can't not informpeople about things because,
(08:50):
they're going to have sex Likeit's you know a fact, and our
sexuality changes throughout.
Jodi Rodgers (08:56):
You know we're talking about people with
intellectual disability orcognitive disability.
But what about people withacquired disabilities?
What if your expression ofsexuality and your sexuality has
been one way and then you getan acquired disability and it
just turns things completely onits head?
And so you know this isn't justfor people who have a born with
(09:18):
, with a cognitive disability orsome kind of you know way of
moving through the world.
That makes being.
We all think we're all the samewith our sexuality.
We do.
We're pretty boring.
Individuals go it's like this.
No, it's not like that at alland it changes throughout our
lifetime and definitely changes.
If you have a chronic illnessor, you know, an acquired
(09:42):
disability or any way that makesyou communicate differently or
learn differently or expressyourself differently, then it,
then it shifts the way thatthere is an understanding,
because we're only taught oneway.
Karenza Louis-Smith (09:55):
And that's a really, really powerful
message.
Clearly you were trailblazing30 odd years ago.
I mean, I'm curious are theremany sexologists today that do
the work that you do?
Jodi Rodgers (10:06):
Yeah, there's more and more, which is absolutely
Brilliant, because I say thereshould never be a specialist in
this area, there should never besomebody who's a specialist in
sexuality and disability, thatthere should be people who
Specialise in human sexuality,but they should be inclusive of
all people.
So I would like there not to bespecialists.
(10:28):
Personally, you know, when Ifirst did my masters was a long
time ago, it was about 20 yearsago and there was very few of us
actually studying sexuality.
I mean, these days you can justget on to tick tock and there's
, you know, thousand sexologistsand so we're becoming, yeah,
the younger people and I alwaysthink we have to listen very
(10:50):
carefully to everybody.
You know, the younger people say, hang on, this is part of who
we are, and so they're changingthe narrative for the rest of us
as well.
But, yes, friends are, I'mgetting on a bit, so I Was.
You know, there's wasdefinitely people at the time,
but there was few people thathave postgraduate qualifications
in two specific areas, and Ithink that's where I might be a
(11:12):
little bit different than somepeople, that I have postgraduate
qualifications in disabilitydevelopmental disability and
also autistic People and alsothen have postgraduate
qualifications in this wholeother area of counselling and
sexuality Gosh you're a busylady, right?
Emily Webb (11:31):
really You're very busy and the book unique, which
as we're recording, we'rerecording Like on the 7th of
February, but when this episodecomes out the book will actually
be on the shelves.
So I love the way you'vestructured unique, which is the
book, and share stories and theyreally beautifully portray why
different ways of being andthinking are so important for us
(11:53):
as humans.
And you do start the book witha personal story of you as a
child and your grandfather andyou're finding four-leaf clovers
and it's gorgeous.
And your grandfather said toyou when you were searching for
a four-leaf clover Don't look sohard.
Love, my grandfather said.
If you train your eye to seethe beauty and difference, it's
everywhere.
And this made me think a lotabout how for a long time, I've
(12:17):
been quite limited with mythinking, even though I thought
I was quite open-minded, up todate with stuff.
But it really made me pause forthought and I guess I'd like to
ask you about what that's donefor you.
I guess that formative memory,how it's, kind of influenced
your life.
Jodi Rodgers (12:35):
I think you know it's a very, very.
I do find four-leaf cloverswhich is quite you know, it's
not a made-up story like they'reeverywhere in my house and
anybody who knows me well wasprobably got one that I've given
to them at some point or other.
But you know, it was really ananalogy that I've taken through
the world with me.
That is, we are often toldThroughout our lives that we
(13:01):
should be the same, that weshould be.
You know, on one hand we golike, oh, it's so great to be
different.
No, we're told the opposite.
We've told that we should lookthe same, that we should act the
same, that we should follow thetrends that we're being told to
.
You know, particularly if we'retalking about the three of us
as women.
You know, this is what this is,what beauty is, this is how you
(13:21):
should live your life.
That's right.
You should express yourself.
Karenza Louis-Smith (13:24):
You need to be thin skinny, voluptuous yeah
.
Emily Webb (13:28):
Yeah, tick, tick, all these skinny but have big
boobs, you know, like that kindof thing.
Jodi Rodgers (13:34):
And it just very true.
It was one of the things that,from very, very on in my
childhood, I was quitefascinated by people that Did it
differently, spoke differently,were from different cultures,
was fascinated in differentreligions was I?
Just I just wanted to know I itwas.
(13:55):
I think I said that in the bookand I just really wanted to
know what made us all tick.
And you know, because weconstantly I can remember being
told as a child to you know, oh,we're all unique, we're all
unique, but I didn't really getit.
I didn't really understand whatthat meant because I was like,
(14:15):
yeah, we're all unique, but how?
And so it just became an all athing that I really became
fascinated with.
And it's challenging, I've gotto tell you.
It's very, very challenging toCould aside your own way of
viewing the world or your ownperception, or Shedding and and
(14:38):
you've got to shed it.
You know I've got to shedconstantly that I'm a White,
well educated, from a lovingfamily, surrounded by beautiful
people.
In my life I've got a.
I've got to shed all of that.
I've got to shed all of mybackground.
When I meet somebody else, I'vegot to try really hard to go oh
Jody, no, you're only thinkingabout it from your perspective,
(15:01):
you're not really listening.
And when I'm in listening,listening is about the true form
of deep listening.
I always love this saying,which is called listen like a
sponge, and sponges just absorbit.
They don't come back and sayI'll give you my point of view,
I'll let you know how it is,I'll let you know, you should do
this, you should do that.
You should know, to reallylisten is to actually become so
(15:25):
fascinated with how anotherperson thinks and feels.
And yeah, I'd say, emily, I wasvery young and I don't think my
grandfather actually meant whathe was saying.
That makes sense.
Like it was just kind of alittle thing that went yeah,
four leaf clover's, they'redifferent, and that's the good
(15:47):
stuff.
You know, you don't standaround looking to fit three leaf
clover's.
We're looking for thedifference.
We're looking for thedifference.
That's where the good stuff is.
Karenza Louis-Smith (15:57):
I remember as a kid playing searching for
four leaf clover's and being sofrustrated when I could never
find them and tearing the leafof one of them to say and
Emily's laughing too Clearlywe've all done the same thing.
That's where my four leafclover.
So I'm really interested in thebook as well.
That you've written unique andyou talk really openly in the
book, that you are not someonewho is autistic, but you know
you're talking, I guess, a lotabout that topic in the book.
(16:19):
So I think your perspectivesare really, really important.
But there's also this hugeconversation as well that we're
about lived and livingexperience and how we sort of
celebrate that and why it'sbecoming more important in the
public sphere.
So I guess how have younavigated that in terms of
writing this book?
And I know you've spoken aboutit in the book, but it would be
great for our listeners to hearwhat a she know.
(16:40):
You know kind of thing.
Jodi Rodgers (16:42):
I actually really grappled with this.
I really did.
It was very difficult becausewhen I was asked, I think people
thought I'd be writing aboutsexuality and sexuality.
But then I started thinkingwell, for me to explain
somebody's expression ofsensuality if you've got sensory
(17:03):
processing difficulties, thenI've got to find sensory
processing difficulties.
If I've got to explain that,then it just kept on coming back
.
And so finally I thought, ohman, I've really got to help do
this.
But in saying that, it kind ofI don't know the right way to
put it like it seems weird,doesn't it, for me to say listen
, listen, really hard.
(17:23):
We should be listening to thepeople who are living this way.
We should be listening topeople of diversity.
They're the voices we should belistening to.
And then I go and write a bookabout it.
But what started happening wastwo things.
One, I started realising that Iwas writing an upside down book
, so I wasn't writing a guide toautism.
(17:44):
This is not a guide to autism.
This is a guide to say listenhere, the rest of you people on
the planet, have a little, lookat yourself for a minute and
then see if you've got thecapacity that when an autistic
person is moving through theworld like this, just give it a
little moment to see whether youhave the empathy, the capacity
(18:06):
to get inside of their shoes orsee things through their eyes.
It was kind of.
That was the first thing Irealised.
I was writing upside down andin the book, I think, I say I
actually then had to seek.
I had to seek permission.
I had to seek permission fromautistic people, and that turned
into the most beautiful thing,because I spend every day, all
(18:27):
day long, with individuals.
You know, I do therapy, so I'msitting with individuals who are
very vulnerable and very openwhen you build that relationship
.
And so I just started.
I started asking them do youthink I should write this book?
Like, do you reckon I shouldsay this?
And do you know, some of themost beautiful things came out
of that one I can remember.
There's a story about a youngwoman who when she during her
(18:52):
schooling years, she was soisolated and so bullied that she
removed herself and would hide.
She called herself a speck ofdust.
But when I talked to her aboutme writing this, she said to me
Jodie, you have to write itbecause I will never have the
capacity to tell that story.
You know I'm socially isolated.
(19:14):
I don't use social media.
I'd be frightened to use social.
So who's going to tell my story?
And that happened again andagain and again that the
representation of autism.
I think sometimes, because Iknow so many autistic people
like my world is just, you know,mainly hanging out with
autistic people that it was moreof a way for me to try and tell
(19:35):
some stories that we don'toften see in the media because
we just don't get it.
Now I'm telling you that, thatwe should be listening.
I am 100% the first person tosay I feel like I still struggle
with this.
I definitely still struggle togo.
Okay, I've written a book thathas the word autism on the front
of it, and I'm not an autisticperson, but I do have the deep
(19:59):
encouragement from all of theautistic person in my life to
have written this book and thatthey've all read their own
stories.
They've all wanted me to put itout there, so I have their
permission to do it.
That's the first one.
The second one is that when Igave it to somebody else, they
said to me oh, I think it's inthe book too.
She actually said to me Ithought this was a book about
(20:20):
autism, but this is a book abouteverybody, so that also helps
sort of push me on.
And then I was pretty full on.
I ended up having it read by asensitivity reader in the US who
is an autistic man.
So I would not have everpublished this book if I had not
had the permission of autisticpeople every single step along
(20:43):
the way.
It gave me lots and lots ofsleepless nights and I had to be
very reflective and I had toreally dig deep inside of myself
to go do I even have anythingto say here?
Is this my place?
Am I meant to say anything?
But yeah, do you know what,karenza?
Somebody sent me a message theother day, an autistic person
(21:04):
who's actually read the book,and she said to me when I read
your book, I felt the same andthat is worth it's weight and go
, I don't care what happens withthe book anymore?
I don't know the fact that oneautistic woman on this planet
read this book and felt sane.
(21:25):
The book's done its job.
Yeah, I agree, I think it's areally, really important book.
What I realised, too, is thatI'm not writing a book about a
lived experience of autism.
I've written a book about whatit's like when you hang out with
autistic people every singleday for many, many years.
(21:46):
What that has actually taughtme, not about autism, what it's
taught me about every otherperson that I spend time with.
So you know now, when I see ateenager who's slammed their
door Emily walked in I go.
Oh yeah, there we go.
I know what's happened in therebecause an autistic person's
taught me.
(22:07):
I literally have spent a lifebeing taught by people who think
differently and perceive theworld differently, and it's more
about what that has done for meas a person to teach me about
every other human on the planet.
Emily Webb (22:20):
Yeah, and it's so much more.
And well, it's always important, but it feels like right now,
in this moment in time, it'sreally important that we are
learning about everyone'sdifferences and listening up,
and there are a lot of reallybeautiful traits and
perspectives when you'reneurodivergent.
We're learning a lot more aboutthat autism, ADHD, all the
(22:44):
other things that spring fromthat but there is a lot of
struggle as we see.
We'll talk about it.
Love on the spectrum reallyportrays that.
Can you talk about this a bitmore from your experience?
Jodi Rodgers (22:57):
It's a disability and that means that the way
society is set up, the way thatthe majority is moving through
the world, means that you aregoing to have some struggles if
you have any type ofneurodivergence.
You don't get given a diagnosisof something unless you are
(23:17):
having difficulty moving througha world that's set up for the
majority.
That's for me where it is, andso, of course, any single person
that I have spent time with inthe last 30 odd years.
They have struggles and theyhave sometimes a lot of
struggles.
If we're talking specificallyabout autistic people and about
(23:37):
relationships and sexuality inmy lifetime, we've got to
remember that there's one of thediagnostic criteria for autism
is about reciprocal relationship.
So it could be difficult toinitiate an interaction, even
verbally initiate.
So if you're somebody that caninitiate verbally, how do you
gain consent from somebody else?
If you're someone that has noperception of another person's
(24:04):
personal boundary, then youcould be crossing boundaries all
the time.
If you're somebody that yourself-image and self-esteem has
been to the point where you havejust said yes to mask and be
liked, then that leaves you very, very vulnerable to abuse.
(24:25):
I also do couples counselling.
So I do couples counsellingwhere one person may be
neurotypical.
The other person may beautistic or neurodivergent, and
that can be really complex aswell.
All of us have difficulties.
We all have miscommunication.
We all have difficultiesexpressing ourselves.
If somebody's expecting you todo it in a neurotypical way and
(24:47):
you're not neurotypical, thenthere's difficulties all the
time.
The way an autistic person mayuse their body or use gesture or
facial expressions can bemisinterpreted by others all the
time.
People can be left feeling very, very lonely and very, very
isolated from relationships.
People can become bitter aboutthat, that it's other people's
(25:11):
fault that they're like this.
There's also incredible beautyin it, but we've got to remember
that any person that isreferred to me or comes to me to
counselled, they're not walkingin there to go.
Oh, let me tell you about mybeautiful relationship, so let
me tell you about my beautifulsex life.
They're not doing that.
They're coming because, justlike any of us would, we
(25:32):
wouldn't go and see a counselloror a psychologist or a
sexologist unless we had areason.
I think that's the best way Ican explain to you.
Karenza Louis-Smith (25:41):
Yeah, I think so, and what are we going
on from that?
Well, believe it or not, weactually do do some research
before we start to chat topeople.
We found out that you appearedactually one of the public
hearings in 2021 into the RoyalCommission into violence, abuse
and neglect and exploitation ofpeople with disabilities, which
is a huge Royal Commissionhappening here in Australia
(26:02):
right now and it's a reallyimportant one too Very important
, long overdue and vital to haveso many contributions,
expertise and perspectivesubmitted and shared.
So I was really curious whatmade you so compelled and what
was your submission about?
What was it that you reallywanted the Commission to hear?
Jodi Rodgers (26:19):
from you, I'd put forward a submission, but what
ended up happening?
I was asked to come in as anexpert witness based around the
area where they were talkingabout this sexual abuse
statistics and to talk directly.
I think I will talk directly toa couple of cases on that.
(26:40):
These were terrible, horrificsexual assaults of women with
disability and statistically,women with a disability will be
sexually assaulted.
Higher rates of domesticviolence, higher rates of sexual
assault.
All of that is much higherstatistically for women with a
disability.
So I was kind of asked to goand talk, but I'll tell you what
(27:02):
I think they probably thoughtafterwards oh my God, we opened
up here.
Jodie Rogers is not going to getoff this stand in any shape or
form, because for me it isexactly what we went back to
talk about.
If people are not provided withrelationship counseling, if
people are not provided witheducation about what is consent,
if people are not provided withwhat affirmative, ongoing
(27:26):
consent is, if people are notprovided with sexuality
education and I'm talking aboutthe whole gamut, the whole gamut
of sexuality if people are nottalked about what respectful and
healthy relationships look like, we leave people open to
extreme vulnerability and abuse.
(27:46):
And you can hear it in my voice, probably I'll start it.
I'm back in, oh.
Emily Webb (27:51):
Karenza, I was.
Karenza will talk about it too,because I mean, look, I'm not a
mental health specialist or asocial worker or anything.
Karenza has worked in this fora long time and, irma, we work
with people with complex mentalhealth and disability.
That's our specialty, isn't it,karenza?
And you've seen this time andtime again in your work.
Karenza Louis-Smith (28:12):
Yeah, it's a really important topic and I'm
not surprised the commission isasking about it.
It's hard, isn't it?
Because I think when we look atsex and sexuality, there's so
many different angles to look atit from, and obviously this
lens is very much about theabuse and neglect of, so I think
it's really powerful, but thenalso is it neglect to not
(28:34):
provide support for people withdisabilities to have sexual
relationships too?
I mean, they really come toflip side of things as well.
I think that's a reallyimportant conversation.
Jodi Rodgers (28:42):
I think it's across the board with
comprehensive sexual education.
So I think, even for I'm notsure about the two of you, but
we are taught sex as onereproduction or one puberty, two
, reproduction, three, what doesit happen?
You may have got that.
You know what happens to havereproduction.
(29:03):
Who's talking about pleasure?
You know those old saying isgoing oh, how do you know it's
spring if you never have awinter?
You know, the thing is that weneed to know what pleasure is.
We need to know what a healthyrespect for relationship is.
We need to know what it feelslike to be good in our own
bodies.
We need to know what it is tohave self-esteem and be kind.
That's what we teach.
(29:24):
We teach the beauty of humaninteraction and intimacy and
pleasure and we teach thepositive.
It's always comes from apositive framework.
We don't teach people to say andeducate people going don't do
this or this is going to happen.
You know it's not the way we go.
(29:44):
Because if we know, if we'retaught from a very, very early
age to say I know what feelsgood, I know that this person is
good for me, I know whensomebody's crossed over, you
know the words, the boundaries.
But if somebody's harming me orhurting me, I know how to say
no to that.
Then we can lay on top of itthe other component, the darker
(30:09):
side of what relationships andsexuality can hold.
But, karinza, I'm 100% with you.
I go in straight away.
If ever people would think thatyou know I might have somebody
come and see me and I go right.
Let's talk about abuse Also.
I work with people who offendas well.
So there's two sides of thestory with this.
But I always go in to go tellme about a great relationship,
(30:33):
tell me about the goodrelationships.
Tell me about your friends.
Tell me about you.
Know your body, what do youlike about your body?
What do you?
We start from the good stuff,yeah, yeah, we always have to
start from the good stuff,because that's life.
We're meant to be enjoying this.
We're meant to be having a goodtime.
Emily Webb (30:50):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, that's so good andespecially with the filter, I've
got on as well about havingteenage daughters and nowadays
it's a lot around behaviors.
There's a bit of work I noticearound coercive control in
teenage relationships and I'mtalking all the time to my
daughters and I hear them talkto their friends about they call
(31:11):
it toxic, you know.
Jodi Rodgers (31:12):
Yeah toxic relationships Things.
Emily Webb (31:14):
So I find it.
It's really good to hear, and Ithink knowledge is power, right
?
Jodi Rodgers (31:19):
So my daughter won't mind me telling you this,
emily, but she was gay, she wasjust.
Oh, that's embarrassing, youknow.
Oh, yes, my mum's a sexologistor whatever I mean she always
talks about when she was about10 coming home and you know, I
had visually supported thingsand she came out.
She was like holding up thisword and she goes mom, don't
(31:41):
leave the word clitoris lyingaround the house.
You know she would have been 10, 11 or something like that.
You know, I definitely havemade sure that the young women
in my lifetime I always go.
You know, was it pleasurable?
Did you get pleasure from it?
You?
Emily Webb (31:59):
know what's the good bits for you Very important.
Jodi Rodgers (32:03):
How do you explain sexual pleasure to somebody if
they actually just came out andsaid to you what does an orgasm
feel like?
That's my day-to-day life, Okay.
Karenza Louis-Smith (32:14):
Hang on, and you know that's a really
powerful question, because Alike the first reaction is to
feel uncomfortable or could alittle bit ashamed, or I don't
know, I've never had an orgasmeither Kind of an answer too,
and I like there's lots and lotsof things that you go to, isn't
it?
And yeah, I think we truly,really.
I mean, I've never sat downwith any of my friends ever and
(32:37):
said, oh my goodness, let's talkabout orgasms, let's talk about
the clitoris, let's talk aboutyou know, we just don't.
I think I've described myselfas fairly, you know, educated,
all of those things, but I don'tthink they taboo.
I think they're.
You know, if I'm gonna go there,they're really taboo topics and
conversations.
So God help me if my kids askthat, because I'm thinking, oh
my God, just don't get pregnant,don't get someone pregnant,
(32:59):
don't get an STI, like what else, what else, you know, you don't
think about.
Actually, this is how you givepleasure and receive pleasure,
and I don't think I've ever hadthat conversation in my life.
That's a really big question,isn't it?
Jodi Rodgers (33:11):
It's a diff and you know if you're learning
about sexuality andrelationships via TikTok or
Instagram or by accessing theinternet, we know where the
internet's taking many, manyyoung people into sort of
explicit material If that's whatyou're learning is.
But you have to have thecapacity to then critically
(33:33):
analyze what you're seeing.
Now, if you're somebody with anintellectual disability that
still has difficulty ininterpreting what you're seeing,
or you don't have any literacyskills so you can't read or you
don't understand the big words,because the big words are often
big Like what is toxic.
(33:54):
So this is my life is takingthese complex terms about our
relationships and sexuality andtrying to boil it down to how
can I best help and how I wouldexplain that to Lorenza, and how
I'll help explain to you, emily, may be very, very different
(34:15):
because of your own way ofmoving through the world.
What a rick a job I have.
Emily Webb (34:19):
Oh no, it sounds unlike.
Maybe I might do a careerchange or something I'm getting
inspired.
Karenza Louis-Smith (34:26):
So love on the spectrum.
Here we go.
Tv show all about sex,sexuality, sexual relationships.
What was the experience like?
Because I would have thought itwould be a bit of a risk to
kind of go and put yourself.
We sometimes see how thesethings are sensationalized and
blown up.
What you say can be any kind ofreality TV show.
There's always the villain, thedifferent things.
(34:47):
How did that feel when you wereinvited to be part of it?
How did you?
Yeah and saying yes.
Jodi Rodgers (34:54):
So, as the way of the world works, a friend of
mine was talked to a friend ofhis who worked at the ABC and my
friend said they were talkingabout the fact that they were
producing this television show,love on the Spectrum.
And my friend said oh, I've,you've met Jodi.
That's what she does for herjob.
Anyway, long story short, theybasically approached me after a
(35:16):
couple of get-togethers.
Those get-togethers, I didn'tknow I was being asked to be on
the show.
I just, I was as relaxed as Iwas.
Emily Webb (35:23):
You're like auditions.
Jodi Rodgers (35:24):
they're auditioning you, yeah yeah, but
I was just being me, becausethat's all we are is us.
And then they said would you beon the show?
Now my instant reaction,carinza, was no.
I didn't say no to them.
My instant internal reactionwas no.
Okay, imagine.
And it was for many reasons.
One of them was I hold my jobin very, very high regard and
(35:48):
the ethical practice of you donot develop a relationship with
somebody therapeutically if it'sfrom a genuine relationship.
So that was number one go.
How the hell Are they gonna beable to film that?
That's ridiculous.
And then the other one was just, I didn't wanna be on
television.
I'd never experiencedtelevision, I didn't know.
But you know, I spoke to afamily member who just said well
(36:12):
, who else is gonna do it?
And the guys from theproduction company, northern
Pictures, who are brilliant,said to me oh, it'll just be one
show, jodie, we just need somesupport with one young person on
the show.
It'll be five minutes, oneepisode.
It'll be on the ABC, that's it,yeah, can't go wrong.
The ABC's family safe, Can't gowrong, fairly safe, and then
bang Netflix 208 countries,seven languages so it just
(36:35):
changed my world.
But to tell you the truth, whatpeople may not understand is
it's called a doco series, sothere was no script.
The first time I ever metanybody, they might've said so.
Example you would've just seenit, emily.
When I first met Michael, whohere and I are still really,
really good friends.
Team at ermha365 (36:54):
We're actually talking this afternoon,
Beautiful yeah.
Jodi Rodgers (36:56):
Yeah, so we're talking four years later here
and I chat all the time.
When I first met Michael, theybasically said right, just walk
down that driveway.
They put a microphone on me,which I've never had in my life.
I always laugh and say theydidn't even give me hair and
makeup, nothing.
And they just said walk downthat driveway, knock on that
door, off you go.
This guy's name's Michael.
(37:17):
So that's what I did when Iknocked on that door.
That was the first time Michaeland I had ever met each other,
we'd ever seen each other.
And what people don't realiseis that we were then filmed.
I was mic'd and we had camerason us for several hours, and
then that is edited back to thefive minutes that people see so
you know people go.
(37:37):
Why did you say that four?
Well, in the context of thehour that surrounded that one
that story it's about trust.
It's definitely about trust andtrusting that.
And also I watched that film.
I watched that crew and thatproduction company with autistic
people and so that trust inthose moments was because the
(38:00):
autistic people on that showwere in complete control of what
was going on.
They could stop it and start itanytime they wanted to.
They could say I'm gonna have abreak.
And none of us were paidbecause in a documentary, Shame,
though that isn't a shame thatyou don't get paid.
You know, emily, I kind of amnot.
The problem about getting paidin the entertainment industry is
(38:22):
that we have a really, reallystrong union of actors and
writers and things like that,because if you're an actor,
that's your job and you'reportraying another person.
But I was being me.
Emily Webb (38:35):
How is?
Jodi Rodgers (38:35):
anybody gonna pay me to be me?
Emily Webb (38:37):
They might need a different, like union for
because with reality TV it'sbecome so popular Reality TV.
It's almost like but yeah, Idefinitely got the sense of that
respect with the crew and theparticipants and I think that is
something that really surprisespeople.
I've done a bit of filming forTV stuff before you know and you
(38:58):
understand, and cause I'd beena journalist, I get it.
So people I talked to who goEmily, I've been approached by
this.
I said listen, you just gottabe aware that you might talk to
them for 10 minutes.
They might use 30 seconds.
So be very pointed with whatyou wanna say.
Jodi Rodgers (39:13):
And I had a lot of trepidation.
Before I saw what it was, thefirst episode of the first
series.
I had a lot of trepidationabout it.
I mean I saw it before it wasever on the television.
But once I saw it I was likethis is okay.
Yeah, this is okay, I definitelyfound at that, yeah, and every
sit where there was no castingagents.
(39:35):
You know, all of the people onthe show applied to be on the
show and wanted to be on theshow and but we all knew that
they were filming us being us.
Emily Webb (39:45):
When I first watched I was a bit like, because I'm a
bit cynical about reality TV.
But there is reality TV docoseries and there's kind of like
the reality TV, like thebachelor all.
Jodi Rodgers (39:56):
No, no, it's like being raised Big brother or yeah
, getting raises.
Nobody was being voted out.
Emily Webb (40:01):
No, no one was being edited to be the villain, but I
actually found watching Love onthe Spectrum, all the work
around communication skills.
I actually found that so usefuland Actually my favorite was
Mark in the first series.
He was so sweet and I.
I also liked hearing the familyperspective, seeing the family
(40:22):
involvement, because it reallymade you understand about what
it takes when you're parenting aneuro divergent child or a
child with a disability, butalso the beauty in just how they
were really real with theirkids and You've worked with
families as well as you know thepeople themselves, what's
really powerful in supporting aneuro divergent child, younger
(40:46):
or adult, especially teens andadults.
As we saw in Love on theSpectrum, they seem very real.
The parents in that series likevery vulnerable and wonderful.
Jodi Rodgers (40:55):
Hmm, the thing I probably come back to.
I mean it's hard because it'shuge, the question you just
asked me, so huge.
But the thing I often come backto families with is that once
people have hit teenage yearsand Neuro, typical young people
gravitate to a peer group andand that's about conforming,
that's about being the same.
So if you are sitting outsideof that, then that can provide a
(41:19):
great feeling of isolation anddifferences and Bullying happens
at those stages because peoplegoing we're going to go after
the different, because you'renot conforming to what we're all
doing.
It's just a way that peoplemove through the world and so
what happens is that people canbecome isolated.
That can move into adulthood.
So I'll have people come and seeme and say, oh, you know, bobby
(41:40):
really wants a girlfriend andBobby's 24 left school, you know
, might be working a part-timejob or whatever, and I always
say has Bobby got a friend?
Our lives are built with theselittle blocks, one on top of
each other.
So learning to hang out with afriend when you're playing at
(42:01):
home, unsupervised with that,without adults providing
structure, actually teaches youhow to go on a date later on.
I Might have people come andsee me and they're desperate for
a girlfriend, but they havenever, ever independently gone
out to the movies, paid for aticket, held conversation with
(42:22):
somebody that hasn't scaffoldedthe conversation.
When I mean scaffolding that,often what I see is that, you
know, we want to provide supportto people, but we don't support
people social skills,independence if we only ask the
questions.
So we have to support people tolearn how to initiate and ask
questions if that's what theyhave complexity and difficulty
in.
You know how do you have aback-and-forth conversation?
Okay, so a date is going tolast this amount of time.
(42:46):
You engage me, so I'll do it inmy office or time going.
All right, let's pretend thatwe're, we've gone out where
you're gonna set me up fordinner, so then I'll just act it
and I'll sit there and get,just do blank.
And either I might have peopleinfo dump on me, which is fine
if people do, because I loveinfo dumping, but you know, get
my mind loves it.
But then I have to think allright, this is somebody on a
(43:08):
date with this person, so then Ijust have to go.
Okay, I can hear what you'redoing.
You're trying to give lots ofinformation, how you get.
You know it's?
It's simple steps.
So we've got to remember thatevery step we have in developing
social skills and independentskills comes out Infruition in
adulthood, and so I I alwaysthink about just going.
(43:30):
Does that person have onefriend, just one, one person
they can hang out with?
They're really themselves withthat?
That's probably the most.
That's always where I startfrom.
That's number one.
And number two is that we haveto be filling people up, that
they spend their whole livesFeeling less than we've got to
(43:52):
fill them up with the good stuff.
I'm always saying to my clientswhat's great about you?
Tell me all the good stuff.
Oh, you know building onstrengths rather than deficit,
because you know if we sitaround going.
Oh you know I can't do maths,what can you do?
Tell me all your good stuff.
So because confidence, when,when you're out in the dating
(44:15):
world, when you're out meetingfriends, people, it's about
confidence.
It's about it's like sellingyourself.
No, it's awful thing to say,but you don't ever walk in to
make some go.
I'm crap at this and I'm shitat this, terrible at this.
That's what a behavior supportplan often looks like, but
that's not what we do.
When we first introduceourselves, we're going.
(44:35):
I am Great at this, I'm intothis, I'm into that.
So making sure, yes, that theyoung people in our lives can
speak highly of themselves, thattheir self-esteem and
confidence is central.
Karenza Louis-Smith (44:48):
I love that we're coming to the end of our
conversation.
I just want to remind ourlisteners that the book unique
is now out and available.
Jodie, what are your hopes forit and the reception from the
people reading it?
What is it?
You know, if you to achieveanything with this book, and for
our listeners as well, you knowwhat is it that you want to see
?
Jodi Rodgers (45:06):
I Will maybe never know.
I will maybe never know.
It's what I've seen beforeabout one person saying I feel
sane, but I may never know, andthat doesn't matter.
What I'd really hope that thebook does is that, for any
single person who reads thisbook, that they'll become a
point sometime in their lifewhere they may be gritting their
teeth or somebody's annoyingthem or they don't understand
(45:28):
what's happening and, ratherthan reacting with impatience or
frustration or Misunderstandingor giving up, I really hope
that something in that storythey just go.
You know something in the bookthem.
Okay.
Haha, that was like that story.
I just hope it shifts people'sperspectives just a little bit.
Karenza Louis-Smith (45:50):
I agree, and the New York time agrees too
is well.
The New York Times has gone onto say we could all use a Jodie
in our lives and listening tothis conversation.
I completely agree.
This has been a fascinatingconversation and we could go on
for hours just on this topicalone.
I think it's a really, reallyimportant conversation, I think
one we need to be thinking moreabout in particular as well.
(46:12):
You know, big call out toeverybody who works in
disability services.
Just to listen to what you'vespoken about today is to that
strengths-based approach, butalso filling people up rather
than looking from a deficitperspective.
I think is so important.
But that kind of basic humanright about love, friendship,
sex and sexuality, how it's aninherent thing for all of us, is
(46:33):
what I'm going to take awayfrom this conversation.
It's kind of really resonatedfor me and to think about my own
Conscious biases, of which Iprobably have many, and not
least the use of the wordclitoris and orgasm.
Jodi Rodgers (46:50):
That's a powerful there's a powerful shatter to
everyone that listens.
Once my life's gone, you know,settle down a little bit more in
the next couple of months, ormore than happy to come and talk
Orgasm and clitoris with you.
Emily Webb (47:02):
We'll be having you back.
Karenza Louis-Smith (47:04):
I think we absolutely have to because
that's, I think you know, sexand sexuality has a massive play
as well on our mental health,and I think that's a
conversation and topic I wouldabsolutely love to explore.
Emily Webb (47:14):
To absolutely and Jodie, we ask all our guests
this question what's yourfavorite thing at the moment, or
your most effective thing thatyou do, to take care of your own
mental health and well-being?
Karenza Louis-Smith (47:28):
Because you can have a very busy, busy life
.
Jodi Rodgers (47:31):
But I also understand that we can't give to
other people.
We can't.
We can't do all the things I'masking of others be patient and
all of that without lookingafter ourselves.
If our cups are empty, then Iseek the help.
I need to get help, so I haveto fill my cup up my things at
the moment.
I love the summer.
I walk every day.
(47:52):
I've come a probably all bases.
I walk and swim, do yoga,meditate, I drink a lot of water
, but I'm also surrounded bypeople that, on a daily basis,
just go, keep going, jodes,you're doing great jodes, life's
(48:13):
wonderful Jodes.
And and I need those people.
Just like we all go to thenegative in our lives, we've all
got terrible self dialogueabout ourselves, and so I
continually surround myself withpeople that fill me up with
knowing that I'm doing just fine, and they never tell me I'm
doing shit.
And so if I do what, I surroundmy life with all the things
(48:36):
that I ask anybody else to do.
Emily Webb (48:40):
So, jodi, a massive thanks to you for joining
Karenza and I for this episode,and Jodi's book unique what
autism can teach us aboutdifference, connection and
belonging, is available now, andyou can find out more about
Jodi at her website, birds andbeescomau, and also watch love
on the spectrum.
There's details as well in theshow notes for this episode.
Team at ermha365 (49:04):
You've been listening to Get Real talking
mental health and disabilitybrought to you by the team at
Irma 365.
Get Real is produced andpresented by Emily Webb with
Karenza Louis Smith and specialguests.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
Get Real is recorded on the unseeded lands
of the Boonwurrung andWurundjeri peoples of the Kulin
Nation.
We acknowledge and pay ourrespects to their elders, past
and present.
We also acknowledge that thefirst peoples of Australia are
the first storytellers, thefirst artists and the first
creators of culture, and wecelebrate their enduring
(00:21):
connections to country,knowledge and stories.
Welcome to Get Real talkingmental health and disability
brought to you by the team atermha 365.
Join our hosts, emily Webb andKarenza Louis Smith, as we have
frank and fearless conversationswith special guests about all
(00:42):
things mental health andcomplexity.
We recognise people with livedexperience of mental health and
disability, as well as theirfamilies and carers.
We recognise their strength,courage and unique perspective
as a vital contribution to thispodcast so we can learn, grow
(01:05):
and achieve better outcomestogether.
Jodi Rodgers (01:11):
Somebody sent me a message the other day an
autistic person who's actuallyread the book and she said to me
when I read your book, I feltseen, I'm not writing a book
about a lived experience ofautism, I've written a book
about what it's like when youhang out with autistic people
(01:32):
every single day for many, manyyears.
What that has actually taughtme.
Welcome to Get Real talkingmental health and disability.
Emily Webb (01:44):
I'm Emily Webb.
I'm joined by erma 365 CEO andco-host, karenza Louis Smith.
Hey, karenza, it's great to beback for the year.
It's awesome and I'm reallyexcited to be back podcasting
and I'm really excited for thisconversation this morning too.
Karenza Louis-Smith (02:00):
I know you are, because we were talking
about it yesterday in a meeting,weren't we?
Emily Webb (02:07):
We were.
We were Now.
Our guest today is Jodi Rogers.
Jodi is a sexologist,counsellor and special education
teacher, and has a master's insexual health.
For Jodi, connection, intimacyand relationships are a basic
human right, and this drives herwork in particular with
autistic people to supportdeveloping their social skills
(02:29):
and understanding their emotions.
Jodi's appeared on the seriesLove on the Spectrum Australia,
working with some of the show'sparticipants.
Her new book, unique whatAutism Can Teach Us About
Difference, connection andBelonging, has just been
released.
Welcome, jodi.
Jodi Rodgers (02:46):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Emily Webb (02:48):
Jodi, I've rewatched some episodes of Love on the
Spectrum in preparation for thisconversation and I'm looking
forward to asking you more aboutit.
But first of all, my burningquestion is what is a sexologist
?
Exactly, because, from whatI've read of your work and I saw
on Love on the Spectrum, it'san area of real importance for
(03:09):
people's wellbeing.
Jodi Rodgers (03:10):
Definitely You've asked me the question that I get
asked at every party I go to.
When people say, what do you do?
And you lead in with the line,oh, I'm a sexologist, everybody
goes.
What is that?
So basically, it's any person.
I mean some people callthemselves a sex therapist.
I don't call myself a sextherapist, I call myself a
(03:31):
sexologist.
But if you think of any ology,it means that you have studied
that area with a master's degreelevel of qualification.
So for me, I have a master'sdegree in sexual health
counselling, which is basicallygoing to university for a long
time to learn every single thingabout human sexuality.
(03:53):
So yeah, I'm very, verypassionate about it.
Yeah, I'll talk about it forhours, which is a problem at a
party because I'll get peoplestuck in corners, go whoa, do
you want to know?
I'll tell you.
Karenza Louis-Smith (04:05):
And I've been interested, like you've
been doing this for like 30 oddyears it's quite a long time
around connection andrelationships and education, and
I think it's really it's areally important conversation.
You know, and you're clearlyway ahead of your time, I think,
with the work that you're doingand it feels like, well, I
don't even know if society isreally catching up.
You know, like what you justsaid, you know what on earth is
(04:26):
that.
You know there's so manyquestions about it.
Tell us about why you're sopassionate about this work and
why you do what you do.
Jodi Rodgers (04:34):
Karinza, I think for me, relationships is, I'd
say, the most important thingabout our lives.
So for me, my relationships arevery, very important.
All of my connection withpeople is what provides me with
a sense of well-being, providesme with a deep sense of
belonging, and it gives mepurpose, really.
(04:55):
But it started for me when Iwas my undergraduate.
I might have been I've got fourdifferent qualifications, which
is a weird thing but I wasworking in a special school, a
time segregated special schoolfor adolescents, and it was in
the 90s.
This tells everybody how old Iam, but it was in the early
(05:16):
1990s and at that pointdisability service standards had
just come into being, so itmeant that every person with
disability had a right to thesame education as every other
person.
In Australia.
It was a long time ago, if youthink about it in that way.
I was in a school with 200adolescent young people, all who
(05:36):
had an intellectual disabilityor sometimes complex physical
disabilities as well, and wewere talking a lot about
employment and of course,employment is integrally
important and we were talkingabout independent skills and
daily living skills.
And I just kept thinking whatabout relationships?
Well, because we all know inour adult lives, that
(05:57):
relationships are very, veryimportant, and back then, if you
put the word sex and disabilityin the same sentence, people
got really, really freaked outby that.
Karenza Louis-Smith (06:08):
I don't know that that's changed a lot
either.
I think, jodie, when you thinkabout some of the kind of we
talk a lot about stigma anddiscrimination here, I think,
when we have frank and fearlessconversations on Get Real and
there's this kind of why wouldpeople with a disability have
sex?
Kind of sense, and let's bereally honest about it out there
in the community, you know, andI think you're talking about,
those relationships are basicintegral human need, right.
Jodi Rodgers (06:32):
We are sexual beings from the moment we are
born until the moment we die,and when people think about sex,
they just go straight forheterosexual, penetrative,
reproductive sex.
That's what they think about.
But our sexuality involves oursensuality, our self-esteem, our
body image, our assertiveskills, our ability to know what
(06:55):
we like and don't like, ourcapacity to communicate that
with somebody else.
It's for me, it's a completeexpression of self, and so
because it's got the word sex init, we immediately just go to
one thing it's a huge area ofour lives, including our
relationships and our capacityto be intimate with one another
(07:15):
and be vulnerable.
So it's not just about physicalintimacy, it's about emotional
intimacy and communication andthings like that.
So for me, I just startedrealising, as I was very early
years in my teaching, but thenit just kept on being an ongoing
theme.
Karenza Louis-Smith (07:35):
Well, with any teenager.
It's going to be an ongoingtheme, right?
Jodi Rodgers (07:37):
Oh, definitely right, and I was saying straight
there in front of me as a youngwoman but it's what Emily said
too I am hugely passionate aboutupholding our human rights, and
for me, the human right thatevery single person should be
able to receive information in away that's accessible to them
and understandable to thembecame an ongoing theme
(08:00):
throughout my life.
And then it just was going OK,well, if all of us can get
access to counsellors, even forsomething like grief counselling
, but people with intellectualdisability where was the access
to that?
Or you know.
And then it went torelationship counselling and
sexuality counselling, so itjust became something that I
really think is fundamentallyintegral for every single person
(08:23):
.
I agree.
Emily Webb (08:26):
Yeah, we were talking about that the other day
about, yeah, just the stigmaaround thinking that people with
intellectual disability or, youknow, complex physical
disability, they're not sexualbeings and we know that they are
.
And you can't limit, especiallywith teenagers I've got teenage
daughters you can't not informpeople about things because,
(08:50):
they're going to have sex Likeit's you know a fact, and our
sexuality changes throughout.
Jodi Rodgers (08:56):
You know we're talking about people with
intellectual disability orcognitive disability.
But what about people withacquired disabilities?
What if your expression ofsexuality and your sexuality has
been one way and then you getan acquired disability and it
just turns things completely onits head?
And so you know this isn't justfor people who have a born with
(09:18):
, with a cognitive disability orsome kind of you know way of
moving through the world.
That makes being.
We all think we're all the samewith our sexuality.
We do.
We're pretty boring.
Individuals go it's like this.
No, it's not like that at alland it changes throughout our
lifetime and definitely changes.
If you have a chronic illnessor, you know, an acquired
(09:42):
disability or any way that makesyou communicate differently or
learn differently or expressyourself differently, then it,
then it shifts the way thatthere is an understanding,
because we're only taught oneway.
Karenza Louis-Smith (09:55):
And that's a really, really powerful
message.
Clearly you were trailblazing30 odd years ago.
I mean, I'm curious are theremany sexologists today that do
the work that you do?
Jodi Rodgers (10:06):
Yeah, there's more and more, which is absolutely
Brilliant, because I say thereshould never be a specialist in
this area, there should never besomebody who's a specialist in
sexuality and disability, thatthere should be people who
Specialise in human sexuality,but they should be inclusive of
all people.
So I would like there not to bespecialists.
(10:28):
Personally, you know, when Ifirst did my masters was a long
time ago, it was about 20 yearsago and there was very few of us
actually studying sexuality.
I mean, these days you can justget on to tick tock and there's
, you know, thousand sexologistsand so we're becoming, yeah,
the younger people and I alwaysthink we have to listen very
(10:50):
carefully to everybody.
You know, the younger people say, hang on, this is part of who
we are, and so they're changingthe narrative for the rest of us
as well.
But, yes, friends are, I'mgetting on a bit, so I Was.
You know, there's wasdefinitely people at the time,
but there was few people thathave postgraduate qualifications
in two specific areas, and Ithink that's where I might be a
(11:12):
little bit different than somepeople, that I have postgraduate
qualifications in disabilitydevelopmental disability and
also autistic People and alsothen have postgraduate
qualifications in this wholeother area of counselling and
sexuality Gosh you're a busylady, right?
Emily Webb (11:31):
really You're very busy and the book unique, which
as we're recording, we'rerecording Like on the 7th of
February, but when this episodecomes out the book will actually
be on the shelves.
So I love the way you'vestructured unique, which is the
book, and share stories and theyreally beautifully portray why
different ways of being andthinking are so important for us
(11:53):
as humans.
And you do start the book witha personal story of you as a
child and your grandfather andyou're finding four-leaf clovers
and it's gorgeous.
And your grandfather said toyou when you were searching for
a four-leaf clover Don't look sohard.
Love, my grandfather said.
If you train your eye to seethe beauty and difference, it's
everywhere.
And this made me think a lotabout how for a long time, I've
(12:17):
been quite limited with mythinking, even though I thought
I was quite open-minded, up todate with stuff.
But it really made me pause forthought and I guess I'd like to
ask you about what that's donefor you.
I guess that formative memory,how it's, kind of influenced
your life.
Jodi Rodgers (12:35):
I think you know it's a very, very.
I do find four-leaf cloverswhich is quite you know, it's
not a made-up story like they'reeverywhere in my house and
anybody who knows me well wasprobably got one that I've given
to them at some point or other.
But you know, it was really ananalogy that I've taken through
the world with me.
That is, we are often toldThroughout our lives that we
(13:01):
should be the same, that weshould be.
You know, on one hand we golike, oh, it's so great to be
different.
No, we're told the opposite.
We've told that we should lookthe same, that we should act the
same, that we should follow thetrends that we're being told to
.
You know, particularly if we'retalking about the three of us
as women.
You know, this is what this is,what beauty is, this is how you
(13:21):
should live your life.
That's right.
You should express yourself.
Karenza Louis-Smith (13:24):
You need to be thin skinny, voluptuous yeah
.
Emily Webb (13:28):
Yeah, tick, tick, all these skinny but have big
boobs, you know, like that kindof thing.
Jodi Rodgers (13:34):
And it just very true.
It was one of the things that,from very, very on in my
childhood, I was quitefascinated by people that Did it
differently, spoke differently,were from different cultures,
was fascinated in differentreligions was I?
Just I just wanted to know I itwas.
(13:55):
I think I said that in the bookand I just really wanted to
know what made us all tick.
And you know, because weconstantly I can remember being
told as a child to you know, oh,we're all unique, we're all
unique, but I didn't really getit.
I didn't really understand whatthat meant because I was like,
(14:15):
yeah, we're all unique, but how?
And so it just became an all athing that I really became
fascinated with.
And it's challenging, I've gotto tell you.
It's very, very challenging toCould aside your own way of
viewing the world or your ownperception, or Shedding and and
(14:38):
you've got to shed it.
You know I've got to shedconstantly that I'm a White,
well educated, from a lovingfamily, surrounded by beautiful
people.
In my life I've got a.
I've got to shed all of that.
I've got to shed all of mybackground.
When I meet somebody else, I'vegot to try really hard to go oh
Jody, no, you're only thinkingabout it from your perspective,
(15:01):
you're not really listening.
And when I'm in listening,listening is about the true form
of deep listening.
I always love this saying,which is called listen like a
sponge, and sponges just absorbit.
They don't come back and sayI'll give you my point of view,
I'll let you know how it is,I'll let you know, you should do
this, you should do that.
You should know, to reallylisten is to actually become so
(15:25):
fascinated with how anotherperson thinks and feels.
And yeah, I'd say, emily, I wasvery young and I don't think my
grandfather actually meant whathe was saying.
That makes sense.
Like it was just kind of alittle thing that went yeah,
four leaf clover's, they'redifferent, and that's the good
(15:47):
stuff.
You know, you don't standaround looking to fit three leaf
clover's.
We're looking for thedifference.
We're looking for thedifference.
That's where the good stuff is.
Karenza Louis-Smith (15:57):
I remember as a kid playing searching for
four leaf clover's and being sofrustrated when I could never
find them and tearing the leafof one of them to say and
Emily's laughing too Clearlywe've all done the same thing.
That's where my four leafclover.
So I'm really interested in thebook as well.
That you've written unique andyou talk really openly in the
book, that you are not someonewho is autistic, but you know
you're talking, I guess, a lotabout that topic in the book.
(16:19):
So I think your perspectivesare really, really important.
But there's also this hugeconversation as well that we're
about lived and livingexperience and how we sort of
celebrate that and why it'sbecoming more important in the
public sphere.
So I guess how have younavigated that in terms of
writing this book?
And I know you've spoken aboutit in the book, but it would be
great for our listeners to hearwhat a she know.
(16:40):
You know kind of thing.
Jodi Rodgers (16:42):
I actually really grappled with this.
I really did.
It was very difficult becausewhen I was asked, I think people
thought I'd be writing aboutsexuality and sexuality.
But then I started thinkingwell, for me to explain
somebody's expression ofsensuality if you've got sensory
(17:03):
processing difficulties, thenI've got to find sensory
processing difficulties.
If I've got to explain that,then it just kept on coming back
.
And so finally I thought, ohman, I've really got to help do
this.
But in saying that, it kind ofI don't know the right way to
put it like it seems weird,doesn't it, for me to say listen
, listen, really hard.
(17:23):
We should be listening to thepeople who are living this way.
We should be listening topeople of diversity.
They're the voices we should belistening to.
And then I go and write a bookabout it.
But what started happening wastwo things.
One, I started realising that Iwas writing an upside down book
, so I wasn't writing a guide toautism.
(17:44):
This is not a guide to autism.
This is a guide to say listenhere, the rest of you people on
the planet, have a little, lookat yourself for a minute and
then see if you've got thecapacity that when an autistic
person is moving through theworld like this, just give it a
little moment to see whether youhave the empathy, the capacity
(18:06):
to get inside of their shoes orsee things through their eyes.
It was kind of.
That was the first thing Irealised.
I was writing upside down andin the book, I think, I say I
actually then had to seek.
I had to seek permission.
I had to seek permission fromautistic people, and that turned
into the most beautiful thing,because I spend every day, all
(18:27):
day long, with individuals.
You know, I do therapy, so I'msitting with individuals who are
very vulnerable and very openwhen you build that relationship
.
And so I just started.
I started asking them do youthink I should write this book?
Like, do you reckon I shouldsay this?
And do you know, some of themost beautiful things came out
of that one I can remember.
There's a story about a youngwoman who when she during her
(18:52):
schooling years, she was soisolated and so bullied that she
removed herself and would hide.
She called herself a speck ofdust.
But when I talked to her aboutme writing this, she said to me
Jodie, you have to write itbecause I will never have the
capacity to tell that story.
You know I'm socially isolated.
(19:14):
I don't use social media.
I'd be frightened to use social.
So who's going to tell my story?
And that happened again andagain and again that the
representation of autism.
I think sometimes, because Iknow so many autistic people
like my world is just, you know,mainly hanging out with
autistic people that it was moreof a way for me to try and tell
(19:35):
some stories that we don'toften see in the media because
we just don't get it.
Now I'm telling you that, thatwe should be listening.
I am 100% the first person tosay I feel like I still struggle
with this.
I definitely still struggle togo.
Okay, I've written a book thathas the word autism on the front
of it, and I'm not an autisticperson, but I do have the deep
(19:59):
encouragement from all of theautistic person in my life to
have written this book and thatthey've all read their own
stories.
They've all wanted me to put itout there, so I have their
permission to do it.
That's the first one.
The second one is that when Igave it to somebody else, they
said to me oh, I think it's inthe book too.
She actually said to me Ithought this was a book about
(20:20):
autism, but this is a book abouteverybody, so that also helps
sort of push me on.
And then I was pretty full on.
I ended up having it read by asensitivity reader in the US who
is an autistic man.
So I would not have everpublished this book if I had not
had the permission of autisticpeople every single step along
(20:43):
the way.
It gave me lots and lots ofsleepless nights and I had to be
very reflective and I had toreally dig deep inside of myself
to go do I even have anythingto say here?
Is this my place?
Am I meant to say anything?
But yeah, do you know what,karenza?
Somebody sent me a message theother day, an autistic person
(21:04):
who's actually read the book,and she said to me when I read
your book, I felt the same andthat is worth it's weight and go
, I don't care what happens withthe book anymore?
I don't know the fact that oneautistic woman on this planet
read this book and felt sane.
(21:25):
The book's done its job.
Yeah, I agree, I think it's areally, really important book.
What I realised, too, is thatI'm not writing a book about a
lived experience of autism.
I've written a book about whatit's like when you hang out with
autistic people every singleday for many, many years.
(21:46):
What that has actually taughtme, not about autism, what it's
taught me about every otherperson that I spend time with.
So you know now, when I see ateenager who's slammed their
door Emily walked in I go.
Oh yeah, there we go.
I know what's happened in therebecause an autistic person's
taught me.
(22:07):
I literally have spent a lifebeing taught by people who think
differently and perceive theworld differently, and it's more
about what that has done for meas a person to teach me about
every other human on the planet.
Emily Webb (22:20):
Yeah, and it's so much more.
And well, it's always important, but it feels like right now,
in this moment in time, it'sreally important that we are
learning about everyone'sdifferences and listening up,
and there are a lot of reallybeautiful traits and
perspectives when you'reneurodivergent.
We're learning a lot more aboutthat autism, ADHD, all the
(22:44):
other things that spring fromthat but there is a lot of
struggle as we see.
We'll talk about it.
Love on the spectrum reallyportrays that.
Can you talk about this a bitmore from your experience?
Jodi Rodgers (22:57):
It's a disability and that means that the way
society is set up, the way thatthe majority is moving through
the world, means that you aregoing to have some struggles if
you have any type ofneurodivergence.
You don't get given a diagnosisof something unless you are
(23:17):
having difficulty moving througha world that's set up for the
majority.
That's for me where it is, andso, of course, any single person
that I have spent time with inthe last 30 odd years.
They have struggles and theyhave sometimes a lot of
struggles.
If we're talking specificallyabout autistic people and about
(23:37):
relationships and sexuality inmy lifetime, we've got to
remember that there's one of thediagnostic criteria for autism
is about reciprocal relationship.
So it could be difficult toinitiate an interaction, even
verbally initiate.
So if you're somebody that caninitiate verbally, how do you
gain consent from somebody else?
If you're someone that has noperception of another person's
(24:04):
personal boundary, then youcould be crossing boundaries all
the time.
If you're somebody that yourself-image and self-esteem has
been to the point where you havejust said yes to mask and be
liked, then that leaves you very, very vulnerable to abuse.
(24:25):
I also do couples counselling.
So I do couples counsellingwhere one person may be
neurotypical.
The other person may beautistic or neurodivergent, and
that can be really complex aswell.
All of us have difficulties.
We all have miscommunication.
We all have difficultiesexpressing ourselves.
If somebody's expecting you todo it in a neurotypical way and
(24:47):
you're not neurotypical, thenthere's difficulties all the
time.
The way an autistic person mayuse their body or use gesture or
facial expressions can bemisinterpreted by others all the
time.
People can be left feeling very, very lonely and very, very
isolated from relationships.
People can become bitter aboutthat, that it's other people's
(25:11):
fault that they're like this.
There's also incredible beautyin it, but we've got to remember
that any person that isreferred to me or comes to me to
counselled, they're not walkingin there to go.
Oh, let me tell you about mybeautiful relationship, so let
me tell you about my beautifulsex life.
They're not doing that.
They're coming because, justlike any of us would, we
(25:32):
wouldn't go and see a counselloror a psychologist or a
sexologist unless we had areason.
I think that's the best way Ican explain to you.
Karenza Louis-Smith (25:41):
Yeah, I think so, and what are we going
on from that?
Well, believe it or not, weactually do do some research
before we start to chat topeople.
We found out that you appearedactually one of the public
hearings in 2021 into the RoyalCommission into violence, abuse
and neglect and exploitation ofpeople with disabilities, which
is a huge Royal Commissionhappening here in Australia
(26:02):
right now and it's a reallyimportant one too Very important
, long overdue and vital to haveso many contributions,
expertise and perspectivesubmitted and shared.
So I was really curious whatmade you so compelled and what
was your submission about?
What was it that you reallywanted the Commission to hear?
Jodi Rodgers (26:19):
from you, I'd put forward a submission, but what
ended up happening?
I was asked to come in as anexpert witness based around the
area where they were talkingabout this sexual abuse
statistics and to talk directly.
I think I will talk directly toa couple of cases on that.
(26:40):
These were terrible, horrificsexual assaults of women with
disability and statistically,women with a disability will be
sexually assaulted.
Higher rates of domesticviolence, higher rates of sexual
assault.
All of that is much higherstatistically for women with a
disability.
So I was kind of asked to goand talk, but I'll tell you what
(27:02):
I think they probably thoughtafterwards oh my God, we opened
up here.
Jodie Rogers is not going to getoff this stand in any shape or
form, because for me it isexactly what we went back to
talk about.
If people are not provided withrelationship counseling, if
people are not provided witheducation about what is consent,
if people are not provided withwhat affirmative, ongoing
(27:26):
consent is, if people are notprovided with sexuality
education and I'm talking aboutthe whole gamut, the whole gamut
of sexuality if people are nottalked about what respectful and
healthy relationships look like, we leave people open to
extreme vulnerability and abuse.
(27:46):
And you can hear it in my voice, probably I'll start it.
I'm back in, oh.
Emily Webb (27:51):
Karenza, I was.
Karenza will talk about it too,because I mean, look, I'm not a
mental health specialist or asocial worker or anything.
Karenza has worked in this fora long time and, irma, we work
with people with complex mentalhealth and disability.
That's our specialty, isn't it,karenza?
And you've seen this time andtime again in your work.
Karenza Louis-Smith (28:12):
Yeah, it's a really important topic and I'm
not surprised the commission isasking about it.
It's hard, isn't it?
Because I think when we look atsex and sexuality, there's so
many different angles to look atit from, and obviously this
lens is very much about theabuse and neglect of, so I think
it's really powerful, but thenalso is it neglect to not
(28:34):
provide support for people withdisabilities to have sexual
relationships too?
I mean, they really come toflip side of things as well.
I think that's a reallyimportant conversation.
Jodi Rodgers (28:42):
I think it's across the board with
comprehensive sexual education.
So I think, even for I'm notsure about the two of you, but
we are taught sex as onereproduction or one puberty, two
, reproduction, three, what doesit happen?
You may have got that.
You know what happens to havereproduction.
(29:03):
Who's talking about pleasure?
You know those old saying isgoing oh, how do you know it's
spring if you never have awinter?
You know, the thing is that weneed to know what pleasure is.
We need to know what a healthyrespect for relationship is.
We need to know what it feelslike to be good in our own
bodies.
We need to know what it is tohave self-esteem and be kind.
That's what we teach.
(29:24):
We teach the beauty of humaninteraction and intimacy and
pleasure and we teach thepositive.
It's always comes from apositive framework.
We don't teach people to say andeducate people going don't do
this or this is going to happen.
You know it's not the way we go.
(29:44):
Because if we know, if we'retaught from a very, very early
age to say I know what feelsgood, I know that this person is
good for me, I know whensomebody's crossed over, you
know the words, the boundaries.
But if somebody's harming me orhurting me, I know how to say
no to that.
Then we can lay on top of itthe other component, the darker
(30:09):
side of what relationships andsexuality can hold.
But, karinza, I'm 100% with you.
I go in straight away.
If ever people would think thatyou know I might have somebody
come and see me and I go right.
Let's talk about abuse Also.
I work with people who offendas well.
So there's two sides of thestory with this.
But I always go in to go tellme about a great relationship,
(30:33):
tell me about the goodrelationships.
Tell me about your friends.
Tell me about you.
Know your body, what do youlike about your body?
What do you?
We start from the good stuff,yeah, yeah, we always have to
start from the good stuff,because that's life.
We're meant to be enjoying this.
We're meant to be having a goodtime.
Emily Webb (30:50):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, that's so good andespecially with the filter, I've
got on as well about havingteenage daughters and nowadays
it's a lot around behaviors.
There's a bit of work I noticearound coercive control in
teenage relationships and I'mtalking all the time to my
daughters and I hear them talkto their friends about they call
(31:11):
it toxic, you know.
Jodi Rodgers (31:12):
Yeah toxic relationships Things.
Emily Webb (31:14):
So I find it.
It's really good to hear, and Ithink knowledge is power, right
?
Jodi Rodgers (31:19):
So my daughter won't mind me telling you this,
emily, but she was gay, she wasjust.
Oh, that's embarrassing, youknow.
Oh, yes, my mum's a sexologistor whatever I mean she always
talks about when she was about10 coming home and you know, I
had visually supported thingsand she came out.
She was like holding up thisword and she goes mom, don't
(31:41):
leave the word clitoris lyingaround the house.
You know she would have been 10, 11 or something like that.
You know, I definitely havemade sure that the young women
in my lifetime I always go.
You know, was it pleasurable?
Did you get pleasure from it?
You?
Emily Webb (31:59):
know what's the good bits for you Very important.
Jodi Rodgers (32:03):
How do you explain sexual pleasure to somebody if
they actually just came out andsaid to you what does an orgasm
feel like?
That's my day-to-day life, Okay.
Karenza Louis-Smith (32:14):
Hang on, and you know that's a really
powerful question, because Alike the first reaction is to
feel uncomfortable or could alittle bit ashamed, or I don't
know, I've never had an orgasmeither Kind of an answer too,
and I like there's lots and lotsof things that you go to, isn't
it?
And yeah, I think we truly,really.
I mean, I've never sat downwith any of my friends ever and
(32:37):
said, oh my goodness, let's talkabout orgasms, let's talk about
the clitoris, let's talk aboutyou know, we just don't.
I think I've described myselfas fairly, you know, educated,
all of those things, but I don'tthink they taboo.
I think they're.
You know, if I'm gonna go there,they're really taboo topics and
conversations.
So God help me if my kids askthat, because I'm thinking, oh
my God, just don't get pregnant,don't get someone pregnant,
(32:59):
don't get an STI, like what else, what else, you know, you don't
think about.
Actually, this is how you givepleasure and receive pleasure,
and I don't think I've ever hadthat conversation in my life.
That's a really big question,isn't it?
Jodi Rodgers (33:11):
It's a diff and you know if you're learning
about sexuality andrelationships via TikTok or
Instagram or by accessing theinternet, we know where the
internet's taking many, manyyoung people into sort of
explicit material If that's whatyou're learning is.
But you have to have thecapacity to then critically
(33:33):
analyze what you're seeing.
Now, if you're somebody with anintellectual disability that
still has difficulty ininterpreting what you're seeing,
or you don't have any literacyskills so you can't read or you
don't understand the big words,because the big words are often
big Like what is toxic.
(33:54):
So this is my life is takingthese complex terms about our
relationships and sexuality andtrying to boil it down to how
can I best help and how I wouldexplain that to Lorenza, and how
I'll help explain to you, emily, may be very, very different
(34:15):
because of your own way ofmoving through the world.
What a rick a job I have.
Emily Webb (34:19):
Oh no, it sounds unlike.
Maybe I might do a careerchange or something I'm getting
inspired.
Karenza Louis-Smith (34:26):
So love on the spectrum.
Here we go.
Tv show all about sex,sexuality, sexual relationships.
What was the experience like?
Because I would have thought itwould be a bit of a risk to
kind of go and put yourself.
We sometimes see how thesethings are sensationalized and
blown up.
What you say can be any kind ofreality TV show.
There's always the villain, thedifferent things.
(34:47):
How did that feel when you wereinvited to be part of it?
How did you?
Yeah and saying yes.
Jodi Rodgers (34:54):
So, as the way of the world works, a friend of
mine was talked to a friend ofhis who worked at the ABC and my
friend said they were talkingabout the fact that they were
producing this television show,love on the Spectrum.
And my friend said oh, I've,you've met Jodi.
That's what she does for herjob.
Anyway, long story short, theybasically approached me after a
(35:16):
couple of get-togethers.
Those get-togethers, I didn'tknow I was being asked to be on
the show.
I just, I was as relaxed as Iwas.
Emily Webb (35:23):
You're like auditions.
Jodi Rodgers (35:24):
they're auditioning you, yeah yeah, but
I was just being me, becausethat's all we are is us.
And then they said would you beon the show?
Now my instant reaction,carinza, was no.
I didn't say no to them.
My instant internal reactionwas no.
Okay, imagine.
And it was for many reasons.
One of them was I hold my jobin very, very high regard and
(35:48):
the ethical practice of you donot develop a relationship with
somebody therapeutically if it'sfrom a genuine relationship.
So that was number one go.
How the hell Are they gonna beable to film that?
That's ridiculous.
And then the other one was just, I didn't wanna be on
television.
I'd never experiencedtelevision, I didn't know.
But you know, I spoke to afamily member who just said well
(36:12):
, who else is gonna do it?
And the guys from theproduction company, northern
Pictures, who are brilliant,said to me oh, it'll just be one
show, jodie, we just need somesupport with one young person on
the show.
It'll be five minutes, oneepisode.
It'll be on the ABC, that's it,yeah, can't go wrong.
The ABC's family safe, Can't gowrong, fairly safe, and then
bang Netflix 208 countries,seven languages so it just
(36:35):
changed my world.
But to tell you the truth, whatpeople may not understand is
it's called a doco series, sothere was no script.
The first time I ever metanybody, they might've said so.
Example you would've just seenit, emily.
When I first met Michael, whohere and I are still really,
really good friends.
Team at ermha365 (36:54):
We're actually talking this afternoon,
Beautiful yeah.
Jodi Rodgers (36:56):
Yeah, so we're talking four years later here
and I chat all the time.
When I first met Michael, theybasically said right, just walk
down that driveway.
They put a microphone on me,which I've never had in my life.
I always laugh and say theydidn't even give me hair and
makeup, nothing.
And they just said walk downthat driveway, knock on that
door, off you go.
This guy's name's Michael.
(37:17):
So that's what I did when Iknocked on that door.
That was the first time Michaeland I had ever met each other,
we'd ever seen each other.
And what people don't realiseis that we were then filmed.
I was mic'd and we had camerason us for several hours, and
then that is edited back to thefive minutes that people see so
you know people go.
(37:37):
Why did you say that four?
Well, in the context of thehour that surrounded that one
that story it's about trust.
It's definitely about trust andtrusting that.
And also I watched that film.
I watched that crew and thatproduction company with autistic
people and so that trust inthose moments was because the
(38:00):
autistic people on that showwere in complete control of what
was going on.
They could stop it and start itanytime they wanted to.
They could say I'm gonna have abreak.
And none of us were paidbecause in a documentary, Shame,
though that isn't a shame thatyou don't get paid.
You know, emily, I kind of amnot.
The problem about getting paidin the entertainment industry is
(38:22):
that we have a really, reallystrong union of actors and
writers and things like that,because if you're an actor,
that's your job and you'reportraying another person.
But I was being me.
Emily Webb (38:35):
How is?
Jodi Rodgers (38:35):
anybody gonna pay me to be me?
Emily Webb (38:37):
They might need a different, like union for
because with reality TV it'sbecome so popular Reality TV.
It's almost like but yeah, Idefinitely got the sense of that
respect with the crew and theparticipants and I think that is
something that really surprisespeople.
I've done a bit of filming forTV stuff before you know and you
(38:58):
understand, and cause I'd beena journalist, I get it.
So people I talked to who goEmily, I've been approached by
this.
I said listen, you just gottabe aware that you might talk to
them for 10 minutes.
They might use 30 seconds.
So be very pointed with whatyou wanna say.
Jodi Rodgers (39:13):
And I had a lot of trepidation.
Before I saw what it was, thefirst episode of the first
series.
I had a lot of trepidationabout it.
I mean I saw it before it wasever on the television.
But once I saw it I was likethis is okay.
Yeah, this is okay, I definitelyfound at that, yeah, and every
sit where there was no castingagents.
(39:35):
You know, all of the people onthe show applied to be on the
show and wanted to be on theshow and but we all knew that
they were filming us being us.
Emily Webb (39:45):
When I first watched I was a bit like, because I'm a
bit cynical about reality TV.
But there is reality TV docoseries and there's kind of like
the reality TV, like thebachelor all.
Jodi Rodgers (39:56):
No, no, it's like being raised Big brother or yeah
, getting raises.
Nobody was being voted out.
Emily Webb (40:01):
No, no one was being edited to be the villain, but I
actually found watching Love onthe Spectrum, all the work
around communication skills.
I actually found that so usefuland Actually my favorite was
Mark in the first series.
He was so sweet and I.
I also liked hearing the familyperspective, seeing the family
(40:22):
involvement, because it reallymade you understand about what
it takes when you're parenting aneuro divergent child or a
child with a disability, butalso the beauty in just how they
were really real with theirkids and You've worked with
families as well as you know thepeople themselves, what's
really powerful in supporting aneuro divergent child, younger
(40:46):
or adult, especially teens andadults.
As we saw in Love on theSpectrum, they seem very real.
The parents in that series likevery vulnerable and wonderful.
Jodi Rodgers (40:55):
Hmm, the thing I probably come back to.
I mean it's hard because it'shuge, the question you just
asked me, so huge.
But the thing I often come backto families with is that once
people have hit teenage yearsand Neuro, typical young people
gravitate to a peer group andand that's about conforming,
that's about being the same.
So if you are sitting outsideof that, then that can provide a
(41:19):
great feeling of isolation anddifferences and Bullying happens
at those stages because peoplegoing we're going to go after
the different, because you'renot conforming to what we're all
doing.
It's just a way that peoplemove through the world and so
what happens is that people canbecome isolated.
That can move into adulthood.
So I'll have people come and seeme and say, oh, you know, bobby
(41:40):
really wants a girlfriend andBobby's 24 left school, you know
, might be working a part-timejob or whatever, and I always
say has Bobby got a friend?
Our lives are built with theselittle blocks, one on top of
each other.
So learning to hang out with afriend when you're playing at
(42:01):
home, unsupervised with that,without adults providing
structure, actually teaches youhow to go on a date later on.
I Might have people come andsee me and they're desperate for
a girlfriend, but they havenever, ever independently gone
out to the movies, paid for aticket, held conversation with
(42:22):
somebody that hasn't scaffoldedthe conversation.
When I mean scaffolding that,often what I see is that, you
know, we want to provide supportto people, but we don't support
people social skills,independence if we only ask the
questions.
So we have to support people tolearn how to initiate and ask
questions if that's what theyhave complexity and difficulty
in.
You know how do you have aback-and-forth conversation?
Okay, so a date is going tolast this amount of time.
(42:46):
You engage me, so I'll do it inmy office or time going.
All right, let's pretend thatwe're, we've gone out where
you're gonna set me up fordinner, so then I'll just act it
and I'll sit there and get,just do blank.
And either I might have peopleinfo dump on me, which is fine
if people do, because I loveinfo dumping, but you know, get
my mind loves it.
But then I have to think allright, this is somebody on a
(43:08):
date with this person, so then Ijust have to go.
Okay, I can hear what you'redoing.
You're trying to give lots ofinformation, how you get.
You know it's?
It's simple steps.
So we've got to remember thatevery step we have in developing
social skills and independentskills comes out Infruition in
adulthood, and so I I alwaysthink about just going.
(43:30):
Does that person have onefriend, just one, one person
they can hang out with?
They're really themselves withthat?
That's probably the most.
That's always where I startfrom.
That's number one.
And number two is that we haveto be filling people up, that
they spend their whole livesFeeling less than we've got to
(43:52):
fill them up with the good stuff.
I'm always saying to my clientswhat's great about you?
Tell me all the good stuff.
Oh, you know building onstrengths rather than deficit,
because you know if we sitaround going.
Oh you know I can't do maths,what can you do?
Tell me all your good stuff.
So because confidence, when,when you're out in the dating
(44:15):
world, when you're out meetingfriends, people, it's about
confidence.
It's about it's like sellingyourself.
No, it's awful thing to say,but you don't ever walk in to
make some go.
I'm crap at this and I'm shitat this, terrible at this.
That's what a behavior supportplan often looks like, but
that's not what we do.
When we first introduceourselves, we're going.
(44:35):
I am Great at this, I'm intothis, I'm into that.
So making sure, yes, that theyoung people in our lives can
speak highly of themselves, thattheir self-esteem and
confidence is central.
Karenza Louis-Smith (44:48):
I love that we're coming to the end of our
conversation.
I just want to remind ourlisteners that the book unique
is now out and available.
Jodie, what are your hopes forit and the reception from the
people reading it?
What is it?
You know, if you to achieveanything with this book, and for
our listeners as well, you knowwhat is it that you want to see
?
Jodi Rodgers (45:06):
I Will maybe never know.
I will maybe never know.
It's what I've seen beforeabout one person saying I feel
sane, but I may never know, andthat doesn't matter.
What I'd really hope that thebook does is that, for any
single person who reads thisbook, that they'll become a
point sometime in their lifewhere they may be gritting their
teeth or somebody's annoyingthem or they don't understand
(45:28):
what's happening and, ratherthan reacting with impatience or
frustration or Misunderstandingor giving up, I really hope
that something in that storythey just go.
You know something in the bookthem.
Okay.
Haha, that was like that story.
I just hope it shifts people'sperspectives just a little bit.
Karenza Louis-Smith (45:50):
I agree, and the New York time agrees too
is well.
The New York Times has gone onto say we could all use a Jodie
in our lives and listening tothis conversation.
I completely agree.
This has been a fascinatingconversation and we could go on
for hours just on this topicalone.
I think it's a really, reallyimportant conversation, I think
one we need to be thinking moreabout in particular as well.
(46:12):
You know, big call out toeverybody who works in
disability services.
Just to listen to what you'vespoken about today is to that
strengths-based approach, butalso filling people up rather
than looking from a deficitperspective.
I think is so important.
But that kind of basic humanright about love, friendship,
sex and sexuality, how it's aninherent thing for all of us, is
(46:33):
what I'm going to take awayfrom this conversation.
It's kind of really resonatedfor me and to think about my own
Conscious biases, of which Iprobably have many, and not
least the use of the wordclitoris and orgasm.
Jodi Rodgers (46:50):
That's a powerful there's a powerful shatter to
everyone that listens.
Once my life's gone, you know,settle down a little bit more in
the next couple of months, ormore than happy to come and talk
Orgasm and clitoris with you.
Emily Webb (47:02):
We'll be having you back.
Karenza Louis-Smith (47:04):
I think we absolutely have to because
that's, I think you know, sexand sexuality has a massive play
as well on our mental health,and I think that's a
conversation and topic I wouldabsolutely love to explore.
Emily Webb (47:14):
To absolutely and Jodie, we ask all our guests
this question what's yourfavorite thing at the moment, or
your most effective thing thatyou do, to take care of your own
mental health and well-being?
Karenza Louis-Smith (47:28):
Because you can have a very busy, busy life
.
Jodi Rodgers (47:31):
But I also understand that we can't give to
other people.
We can't.
We can't do all the things I'masking of others be patient and
all of that without lookingafter ourselves.
If our cups are empty, then Iseek the help.
I need to get help, so I haveto fill my cup up my things at
the moment.
I love the summer.
I walk every day.
(47:52):
I've come a probably all bases.
I walk and swim, do yoga,meditate, I drink a lot of water
, but I'm also surrounded bypeople that, on a daily basis,
just go, keep going, jodes,you're doing great jodes, life's
(48:13):
wonderful Jodes.
And and I need those people.
Just like we all go to thenegative in our lives, we've all
got terrible self dialogueabout ourselves, and so I
continually surround myself withpeople that fill me up with
knowing that I'm doing just fine, and they never tell me I'm
doing shit.
And so if I do what, I surroundmy life with all the things
(48:36):
that I ask anybody else to do.
Emily Webb (48:40):
So, jodi, a massive thanks to you for joining
Karenza and I for this episode,and Jodi's book unique what
autism can teach us aboutdifference, connection and
belonging, is available now, andyou can find out more about
Jodi at her website, birds andbeescomau, and also watch love
on the spectrum.
There's details as well in theshow notes for this episode.
Team at ermha365 (49:04):
You've been listening to Get Real talking
mental health and disabilitybrought to you by the team at
Irma 365.
Get Real is produced andpresented by Emily Webb with
Karenza Louis Smith and specialguests.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
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