December 9, 2023 • 51 mins
Our guest for this episode is Dr. Jakqui Barnfield, Lifeline Direct's Executive Director of Service Delivery.
Jakqui is a registered nurse with a passion for mental health and suicide prevention. She tells us about the power of reaching out to Lifeline Australia's services and that you are not alone.
Helplines:
Lifeline on 13 11 14
13 YARN on 13 92 76 (24/7 crisis support for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples)
MensLine Australia 1300 78 99 78
Suicide Call Back Service 1300 659 467
Free nationwide service providing 24/7 phone and online counselling to people affected by suicide
SuicideLine Victoria 1300 651 251
24/7 telehealth service that offers free professional phone and online counselling for people living in Victoria
MORE INFO about the Safety Plan mentioned in this episode.
CREDITS
Produced, hosted and edited by Emily Webb, ermha365 Advocacy and External Communications Advisor with Karenza Louis-Smith, CEO ermha365.
Follow ermha365 on social media:
FACEBOOK - @ermhaorg
TWITTER - @ermha365
INSTAGRAM - @ermha365
ermha365 provides mental health and disability support for people in Victoria and the Northern Territory. Find out more about our services at our website.
ermha365 acknowledges that our work in the community takes place on the Traditional Lands of many Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples and therefore respectfully recognise their Elders, past and present, and the ongoing Custodianship of the Land and Water by all Members of these Communities.
We recognise people with lived experience who contribu
ermha365 provides mental health and disability support for people in Victoria and the Northern Territory. Find out more about our services at our website.
Helplines (Australia):
Lifeline 13 11 14
QLIFE 1800 184 527
13 YARN 13 92 76
Suicide Callback Service 1300 659 467
ermha365 acknowledges that our work in the community takes place on the Traditional Lands of many Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples and therefore respectfully recognise their Elders, past and present, and the ongoing Custodianship of the Land and Water by all Members of these Communities.
We recognise people with lived experience who contribute to GET REAL podcast, and those who love, support and care for them. We recognise their strength, courage and unique perspective as a vital contribution so that we can learn, grow and achieve better outcomes together.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Get Real is recorded on the unseeded lands of the
Boonarong and Warungery peoplesof the Kulin Nation.
We acknowledge and pay ourrespects to their elders, past
and present.
We also acknowledge that thefirst peoples of Australia are
the first storytellers, thefirst artists and the first
creators of culture, and wecelebrate their enduring
(00:21):
connections to country,knowledge and stories.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Welcome to Get Real talking mental health and
disability brought to you by theteam at PURMA 365.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Join our hosts, emily Webb and Karenza Louise Smith,
as we have frank and fearlessconversations with special
guests about all things mentalhealth and complexity.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
We recognise people with lived experience of mental
health and disability, as wellas their families and carers.
We recognise their strength,courage and unique perspective
as a vital contribution to thispodcast so we can learn, grow
and achieve better outcomestogether.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Everyone is absolutely worthy.
We're here 24-7 to helpeveryone.
We're open to everyone.
We want people to call.
We don't want people to wait tolearn crisis.
We will offer support to peoplewho are in crisis.
We'll offer support to peoplewho aren't in crisis, but we'll
also offer support to people whoare supporting people, because
(01:31):
being a carer is tough and it'soften absolutely under
recognised.
It's undervalued.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
Our guest for this episode is Dr Jacqui Barnfield,
executive Director of ServiceDelivery for Lifeline Direct.
You'll hear us talk about On theLine Australia during this
interview, and that's becauseJacqui was working with them and
recently On the Line Australiaamalgamated with Lifeline
Australia to better addressservice gaps for people to
(02:01):
access care and support aroundthe country.
Jacqui is a registered nursewhose career focus and passion
has been mostly in mental healthand suicide prevention.
She's been a Director ofNursing and Operations in
various roles, and her PhD studyTherapeutic Optimism and
Attitudes Among Medical andSurgical Nurses Towards
(02:23):
Attempted Suicide explored theexperiences of both nurses and
consumers when faced with caringfor or being the recipient of
hospital admission following asuicide attempt.
We're going to be finding outmore about Jacqui and her work,
and also about ways to lookafter ourselves over the
Christmas, holiday and New Yearperiod, which can be difficult
(02:45):
for people for many reasons.
And before we launch into ourconversation, if you're affected
by anything discussed in thisepisode, you can reach out to
Lifeline on 13 11 14.
Welcome to get real, dr Jacqui.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Thank you very much, Emily.
Lovely to be here.
Speaker 5 (03:03):
Now, karinza, before we start chatting with Jacqui,
we explored this topic of extrafocus on self care and mental
health support over theChristmas New Year period for
our last episode of 2022.
And we're revisiting it again.
I don't think we can talk aboutthis enough.
What's your general feeling atthe moment about this time of
year and things that you'redoing to keep mentally well,
(03:25):
because it's a hectic time,there's lots of pressure, and
aspects of life like the cost ofliving crisis have got harder
in the 12 months since we lastspoke about this.
Speaker 6 (03:36):
I think you're right and I think it's interesting,
isn't it?
We were chatting earlieroffline about how Christmas
seems to magnify things.
You know, I think you can findways to get through tough and
difficult times sometimes, butthe expectations that are set
around us at Christmas arereally hard.
To put presents under the trees, to gift to people, to have a
smile on your face, to show up,to be happy, and you know, for
(03:59):
some people that is just toodifficult, too much and too hard
.
And then you know there's thatsense of I failed, I haven't
done well enough, I'm not doinggood enough If I can't do some
of those things.
So I think the pressure thatChristmas brings is huge.
And then, of course, if we lookat what's going on in the world
, I mean it's pretty depressingand you know, it's pretty awful
when you see, I guess, some ofthe conflicts that are happening
(04:19):
in the world, people dying, allof those things I think can
magnify sadness for people aswell too.
So I think these conversationsthat we have around Christmas
are really important, becausefinding ways to recognise that
but also take care of ourselvesis really, really important.
And you know, preparing, Ithink, to get yourself through
(04:40):
the sort of festive season isreally important, so I'm really
looking forward to today'sconversation.
In particular, I like callingyou Dr Jackie, so I'm thrilled
that you've joined us, for, getReal, you've got a background as
a clinician.
You're also a registered nurseas well.
Can you talk to us a bit about,I guess, your expertise and
(05:00):
what's brought you into thisarea of work?
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Dr.
Jackie, it's so weird.
I'm going to have to take youback, like to the last century
really, to give you a little bitof context to how I got here.
At least we're early enough inthe century I can say that it
doesn't feel that long ago, butit is so a really long time ago.
It comes back to high schoolwhen you're picking what it is
that you want to do.
I had no idea Actually,originally I thought I wanted to
be a park ranger and I realizedthat it was going to be cold at
(05:27):
some point.
I didn't really like the coldweather, so it was like, okay,
that's not for me, somethingthat's going to be indoors.
And you know, we've all gotlike a favorite uncle or
favorite auntie.
They're the fun one, the onewho inspires, without actually
even knowing that they inspireyou.
I said just cool, and I had acool uncle.
He was a mental health nurseand I thought actually I could
(05:48):
be a mental health nurse.
Would I be as cool as him?
I don't know, that's irrelevantnow.
And it was interesting becausehe was, you know, in the UK, in
here in Australia, the year thatI was applying to become a
nurse.
It was my last year of highschool they no longer ran the
mental health nursing specificqualification, so I did my
(06:09):
registered nursing bachelor atMonash Uni and throughout that I
just I found that all of theclinical placements within the
mental health sphere reallyresonated for me and I just felt
more real being in those spacesthan you know.
Hospitals are really artificialplaces.
You know people go, they'reunwell, and you know that you
(06:29):
see people when they're at themost vulnerable, when they are
at the most unwell, and that'swhere you spend most of your
time.
So, irrespective of whether itbe in a medical ward or a
psychiatric ward or a mentalhealth ward however you want to
phrase it you see people whenthey're considered to be at
their most unwell or at their,you know, a pinnacle of a crisis
.
I will come back to that in alittle while and give you a
(06:50):
little bit more context to wheremy thinking is now.
So I started off and, you know,really kicked off in the mental
health space with an associatenurse manager really early on in
my career and I remember I callit my defining moment and it
really defines why I've chosenthe career trajectory there's a
(07:10):
word I can't say Trajectory thatI'm here now and my defining
moment is this I was working onthe inpatient unit and you know
I was that nurse that he thinkoh, that's so cool to be, you
know, to answer phones couldvector doctors.
I was like the octopus in themind really, as a nurse leader
in that space.
(07:31):
And then we had this lady comein and it was Joan.
Now it's easy to remember Joanbecause, as I said, I've
attached her to my definingmoment and my career trajectory.
But Joan came into us from anursing home and she was very
confused, very disorientated, asshe would be taking out of her
natural environment.
It was the old, old designs ofmental health units they used to
(07:54):
have.
This was like a fishbowl glassall around the nurse's station
to give a perspective or a viewof the ward for safety reasons,
apparently Whole other dynamicaround that.
But she was at the window a lottapping and she was, you know,
tapping on the window frequentlyand it was almost constant
pretty much for three days.
(08:15):
So she came into us on theFriday by the Monday like we're
all exhausted because we weretrying to reorientate Joan, get
her back to her space she wassafe and where she was
constantly having to try andreorientate someone who was so
unable to actually hear whatyou're actually saying.
And it got to Monday and it'sstopped.
(08:37):
And I remember vividly standingin the middle of the office
thinking, oh crap, we failedJoan.
And I had an absolute epiphanyand I went back and I had a look
she was getting massive dosesof medication when she was at
the nursing home and she came tous and it wasn't picked up.
(08:59):
She wasn't prescribed that highlevel of medication.
So for three days Joan wentthrough withdrawal that we were
completely oblivious to and Icall it my defining moment
because I just realised that'snot the nurse I want to be.
So whilst I got caught up in thehype of being able to do
everything, I lost my purpose.
I lost myself in that thing ofwhat I thought was the important
(09:23):
, and it was important to theorganisation, not the important
to the individual.
And immediately I left theoffice safely.
But I left the office and wentaround and spoke to my director
of nursing and said how do Ibecome an educator?
I want to be able to be in aspace where I can influence more
people, to not make the areathat I just made.
I speeded up a little bit morenow because we've done the
(09:50):
important part of that story.
So it became an educator for aperiod of time, became the
manager of an education team,had much more influence than
being able to really specialiseand hone in on the delivery of
education in a tertiary mentalhealth hospital.
Then I had the opportunity towork in another organisation and
there was a vacancy for adirector of nursing role open.
(10:12):
I thought how hard can it be?
It's not much different to aneducator.
That was an interestingexperience.
It's one of those things thatyou don't know what you don't
know until you find out youreally don't know it.
So that was a massive learningcurve for me and I look back now
and I think that was such anamazing opportunity.
And there's something if I hadknown what was expected, I
probably wouldn't have beenbrave enough to try it.
(10:33):
Now again, being a director ofnursing, you can influence, you
can't necessarily mandate.
So I realised that in fact, Ineeded to be in the operational
space as well and became anoperations director tagline
alongside with my director ofnursing role, and I had a
fabulous mentor who enabled meto develop that role as it was.
(10:57):
Now comes to the reallyimportant part of this Now.
I said before that there arelots of people in crisis that
really are well when they're inhospital.
During COVID, I took stock andI realised that I'd lost the joy
in what it was that I was doing.
In hospitals.
There's no people coming in,there's no visitors, no one to
engage.
I wasn't allowed to go to thewards because of potential
(11:19):
infection.
So I was in my office and I'mlike what am I doing?
So I left and I decided to joincompletely different.
Get back on the tools.
I became a clinician again,which really kick started.
Ah, there's my true north.
That's what I'm here for, andI've then since spent the last
two and a half three yearsapologising to every single
(11:42):
person I've come across in theprimary health sector Because of
that sea snobbery.
Tertiary is the hardest part ofthe world, absolutely wrong.
The people who work in theprimary health sector, who work
in the community sector, are theones doing it tough.
That's where I am at today.
Sort of it doesn't quite giveyou where I am now with on the
(12:04):
line, but I'm fairly sure we'regoing to meander into that
sector shortly.
I'll leave you with my definingmoment.
Speaker 6 (12:12):
Thank you and trigger warning for our listeners.
We are going to talk a littlebit about suicide and suicide
prevention so something thatyou're really passionate about
and services that support peopleas well following suicide
attempts.
You know full disclosure, sharethat passion.
You know I was in a familyliving in a family where my
grandfather took his own lifeand I've seen the impact that
(12:32):
that had on my dad, who was ayoung boy at the time, and that
long kind of term trauma andthings that happen.
Your PhD focused on hospitalcare receiving and delivering
care for people who haveattempted to end their lives.
You know that's a huge topic toexplore.
What was it that kind of drewyou to that and what is it that
(12:52):
you know when you think aboutthat that you actually want to
achieve?
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Thank you.
Interesting, one of theactually the reason I selected
that topic I was thinking aboutyou know what do you do when
you've done a lot of study?
What's next?
And one of my professionalcolleagues and a friend actually
attempted suicide.
So a mental health professional, an educator, highly qualified,
(13:21):
and it was like, okay, that'sher, that's her journey.
And we were talking one dayafter about her experiences and
she said you know what reallygot me out?
Sorry, I didn't say she's alsoa mental health nurse, so she
knew what she should have beenexpecting.
So she was in the emergencydepartment and she she was
(13:43):
talking about how, you know, thenurses were engaging with her
or not engaging with her, and infact she didn't get a lot of
conversation from the nurses inthe emergency department.
But she said what really hither hard was when the nurse from
the emergency department wasdoing the handover, when you're
transitioning care from one partof the hospital to another, and
(14:04):
she overheard the nurse sayshe's been a naughty girl and it
was such a label and in fact Idid a presentation on that I've.
You know I interviewed herabout that experience, what it
really meant for her, and thathe started me on the journey.
Why would a nurse say such athing?
And you know, is it that nursesare judgmental or is it that
(14:26):
nurses just don't know what tosay?
So that was really what I was.
I was trying to unpack in thisspace around.
Do the people caring for anyone?
Because you know, the ED isreally the major front door for
hospitals.
Yes, now there's a whole heapof research on emergency nurses
in that space.
So I thought, okay, that's beendone.
(14:47):
What about general nurses?
And there's little in thatspace.
And then people go from,obviously, the emergency ward to
medical wards, should it berequired.
So that's where I focus myresearch.
So I was able to interview afew consumers who were very
privileged to be able tointerview a few consumers who
are willing to share theirexperiences and also do some
(15:09):
surveys and interviews withnurses who work in that space.
What was fascinating about it isthe nurses really want to do
the right thing.
They just don't know what theright thing is.
The wards themselves aren't setup to provide a safe
environment and they know that.
So what you often see and theconsumers are saying you know,
(15:30):
the nurses were in the roombecause often a four bed,
because they would put people inmultiple rooms so that it
decreased the risk to havepeople around.
But they say the nurse wouldnever come and talk to me, but
that always be in the room andthey'd be doing something with
someone else.
So I'm sitting there doingnothing and I talked to the
nurse about that and what weunpacked was, in fact, the
(15:52):
nurses are in there and they'redoing this whole bunch of
busyness and they're being busybecause they're really anxious
that whatever they're going todo or say to the person is going
to be wrong.
So what really connected was,in fact it's all a defence
mechanism that the way in whichnurses behave towards some of
(16:13):
the people who were coming undertheir care, it was anxiety
driven.
They just did not know what todo.
Speaker 6 (16:18):
They wanted to do what they could and that's
probably reflective, not justnursing people listening to us.
They'd be thinking I don't knowwhat I would say.
You know what do you say whensomeone starts to talk about
having feelings of suicidal orsuicidal ideations and I don't
want to be here anymore.
It's like one of the most scarythings I think for someone to
(16:39):
hear.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
It is.
You know, we focus so much onlife and then when someone is
actually talking about, we focusso much on wanting to prolong
life and, you know, get olderand have a healthy age, but then
when people are thinking aboutending their own life on their
own volition, it's like, oh,what a really confronting thing
to be posed with.
It's frightening, and for me,what I think about that, people
(17:03):
who are willing to sit andlisten to someone who talks
about you know their feelingsabout suicidality even before it
even gets to that point.
Someone who's willing to sitand listen to someone else's
burdens is extraordinarily brave, because we know that one of
the single biggest risk factorsfor suicide is isolation.
It's loneliness.
And if you've got no one toshare any of that stuff with,
(17:26):
where do you go?
And if you've got nowhere to go, all it does is exacerbate that
.
I'm alone, I'm isolated.
No one else feels like this.
I've got no one else to carrymy burden.
Speaker 5 (17:37):
It's so interesting and important to hear.
I have a 17 year old daughterwho's in year 12 next year and
she's quite keen on doingnursing, and I have a husband
who came to nursing late when wemoved back to Australia.
He's from the UK and my mum wasa nurse for nearly 50 years.
I'm going to ask you a fewquestions about nursing a bit
later, if I can.
So, jackie, you know youchanged track, got so much
(18:01):
experience, so can you tell usmore about the services that on
the line deliver?
Do they do some reallyimportant stuff?
And also a bit about theamalgamation that happened quite
recently, I think in October,with Lifeline Australia?
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Thanks, emily.
It's easy to talk about theamalgamation and then I can talk
about the services.
So Lifeline and on the lineAustralia amalgamated, so
voluntary amalgamation, on the1st of October of this year.
So people listening, what doesamalgamation mean?
Oh, we've joined forces, sowe're now under one combined
banner Great question.
Thanks, karenza.
(18:34):
I say voluntary as well becauseI don't want people to think
that there was a takeover or oneis bigger or better than the
other.
We actually are very much ashared organisation.
Now we came together bothvoluntarily, the reason being
both organisations reallyresonate.
Our purpose resonated, ourmission resonated, the things
(18:55):
that we do.
We're both providing servicesin the digital mental health
space, some clinically, some notso clinically.
Absolutely the 13, 11, 14number that you raised before.
I think almost every personknows that number, which is
awesome, because it just meansthat everyone in Australia has
somewhere to go at any point intheir time, irrespective of what
(19:18):
it is.
Now the amalgamation, so priorto it, on the line Australia.
So I will actually do a bit ofa spree.
On the line Australia, we'rethree years older than Lifeline,
so there's a little bit offriendly banter about that.
So on the line started 1960,lifeline 1963.
(19:38):
So Lifeline now runs the on theline previous lines.
So previous lines being, or asthey are now, men's Line
Australia Suicide CallbackService.
So both of those are nationalhelplines.
I'll talk a bit about what thatactually means in a second.
We've got Suicide Line Victoria, which is available only to
(20:01):
those in Victoria, and we run acouple of services for some of
the primary health networks inSouth Australia, in Victoria and
in New South Wales.
Now when I say we run them, weprovide it's 24 7365, it'll be
366 days next year.
Happy leave here.
(20:21):
And what I say so is it'speople can pick up the phone at
any time and give us a call.
We've always got people thereready and able to answer your
call.
I will talk a little bit aboutpeak times.
We do get peak times andsometimes it's to actually plan
when they're going to be andalso know when a peak is going
(20:44):
to occur, because obviouslysometimes people call in
response to something that'sgoing on in the community and
you're a bit of lag behind onthat.
Hypoclea, peak times arebetween about 5 and 11pm, which
makes sense.
You've got people home fromschool, they finish work.
It may be that meal times areover into the evening.
Kids have gone to bed.
(21:05):
Not to say that we're quietduring the day, but we are
certainly busier in the evening.
It doesn't necessarily quietdown overnight, but we tend to
have some, I guess, some peoplewho call more frequently
overnight because for themthat's their day, which makes
sense.
We're 24-7, so we're availablefor shift workers, which is
(21:26):
awesome.
We're available for when peopleneed us.
It's when they decide that theyneed a call, which again comes
back to being really brave aboutputting themselves out there.
I need help, I need someone totalk to picking up the phone and
reaching out, doing that.
We've got phone availability.
We've got chat availability.
(21:46):
Both of those can be done ondemand.
We've also got videoavailability as well, and that
is made by appointment.
It's a little bit more complexto set up, so appointment-based.
What we offer is counselling Forthose people, and I know
there's a lot of services outthere where there are massive
amounts of wait lists to getinto.
(22:07):
There's often quite high priceassociated with that.
Certainly, there are supportswith under the Medicare Benefit
Scheme.
What's really good about ourservices is they're free.
Doesn't matter who you are,where you are, where you're
based, they are 100% free.
They're even a free call.
Now we do inbound and outboundcalls, so inbound pick up the
(22:29):
phone and you're callingstraight away.
You will get to speak to acounsellor straight away as soon
as you get through.
As I said, there are some peaktimes, so it might mean that the
time to get onto the call mighttake a little bit longer, but
we certainly do try to answer asmany calls as quickly as we
possibly can.
We don't predict how long thewait list is going to be or how
much time you're going to bewaiting on the phone, because we
(22:50):
don't know how much time weneed to spend with someone who's
on the call before you.
What we do try to do, though,is pick to about a 20-minute
time frame, because we don'twant to delve into stuff that
becomes too hard to unpack in aphone call or in a chat, and
also we're not face-to-facecounsellors, so there are things
that we don't do in digitalcounselling that you would do in
(23:14):
face-to-face, and some of thatstuff is really building that
relationship, getting to knowsomeone a little bit more
closely, aligned with what theywant to talk about.
I mean, we do talk about thingslike what got you here, what's
going on for you right now, butit's done in a really condensed
way.
So there inbound, there aresingle sessions, so I can talk
through the model that we have asolution focus, brief therapy
(23:37):
approach.
So what we do is we ask peopleto identify what sets brought
you to pick up the phone today.
Why are you calling and no oneever rings?
For one reason, but in 20minutes we need people to focus
on the one reason and it'sactually a really powerful tool
to get them to think aboutwhat's the one thing that is
(23:59):
bothering you more thaneverything else, because it's
typically that destroy, thatbreak the camel's back.
You know you've got a wholebunch of stuff that goes on in
people's lives all the time, butthere's one thing that made
them pick up the phone today.
What was it?
Okay, it might not be the finalthing that got them to think,
oh, I need to call someone.
It could be the first thingthat it's really been bothering
(24:20):
them, but it's been bubblingaway and it's never really been
resolved.
So we get people to think aboutwhat is that number one thing
you really want to focus onright now in this call and then
ask them to write a level ofdistress that it causes them.
Right now.
We call that a consumer'sself-rated distress scale.
What that does a reallypowerful tool is it gets them to
(24:41):
think about oh, how much of animpact does this have on my life
?
If you've got four or fivedifferent things, then you can
do a quick mental check andthink, okay, is it my
relationship issues?
Is it my work, is it financialconcerns?
You go, okay, oh, that's maybea four, that might be a five,
that might be a two.
(25:02):
Oh, that's an eight.
I didn't really think about itthat much until it actually you
get the question.
So, with that, then that's theplan on the opportunity for the
counselor and the consumer toreally talk through what that
issue is.
And you know there's a wholebunch of counseling tools,
mechanisms that are reallyskilled professional counselors
(25:23):
use.
Now I will just tap in.
So our counselors are allprofessional counselors.
They are either qualified incounseling psychology, they're
either mental health socialworkers or they could be mental
health nurses.
Lots of experience, lots ofqualifications.
They are experts in deliveringdigital mental health service
(25:44):
delivery.
Speaker 6 (25:46):
So, jackie, I was reading an article in the
Guardian.
That is not unusual now for youguys to receive more than 4,000
inbound calls a day.
Is that right, 4,000?
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Yeah, lifeline yeah, 13, 11, 14, whether it be by
phone or text.
Speaker 6 (26:03):
That's a phenomenal number, that's huge, and they
talked as well in the Guardianabout the rising costs of living
, kind of being a major driverfor this.
You know I was thinking I wasin the supermarket the other day
and doing my groceries shoppinggrief like you know the how
much it's risen.
Are you seeing a lot morepeople come into you with
financial distress and anxietyand things that are happening as
(26:26):
a result of that?
Speaker 3 (26:28):
It waxes and wanes.
I mean we've had people who'vebeen calling around financial
difficulties well before COVID,but certainly over the last
little while we are seeing anincrease.
The other reasons people stillcall.
They're still struggling to getover what happened during COVID
as well.
You know, getting back to thenew normal there's still trying
to work out how to reengage,still stuck in you know, that
(26:53):
isolation, that loneliness,being able to rebuild
relationships and reconnect withpeople.
The financial stuff isabsolutely how awful to have to
decide whether you're gonna paya bill or whether you're gonna
eat, whether you are gonna eator whether you're gonna give
your child the last bit of food.
Speaker 6 (27:11):
Or the business presence that they want.
Right, that's kind of anup-down, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Yeah, with that there's this absolute,
inordinate amount of shame.
And it's not anyone's fault.
We say it all the time mentalhealth, it's not your fault, but
shame and guilt are emotionsthat we put on ourselves Again.
Probably.
I mean there's layers to it,but there's the comparison to
(27:36):
you know, I'd love to be able togive my family blah, or I'd
love to be in a situation to beable to provide blah, but also
we don't have a.
You know, we don't have theutopian society.
What we have is a place wherethere are people who are living
very far below the poverty line.
You know, we've got people atthe poverty line and we have
(27:58):
people who are getting through.
We've got people who aregetting through a bit better and
we've got people who are notstruggling or needing help in
any way, shape or form in afinancial perspective, but that
doesn't mean that they're mentalhealth any better.
Speaker 6 (28:12):
No, I'm interested when you talk about that kind of
sense of shame.
You know that shame, thefailure, you know, but also the
stigma piece, I think as well.
And I think there are peopleperhaps that are listening to
the podcast thinking I'vethought about ringing, but I
never have and I haven't becauseI feel silly.
You know, if I say it it's real.
All of those things.
What would you say to someonethat's sort of sitting in that
(28:34):
space, that inner turmoil andbattle?
Speaker 3 (28:38):
I could have said before you know, I think you're
really brave if you call.
There's no way you would everfeel as though a councillor
would never say you should feelashamed, you should feel guilt
about what's going on.
We work in a strength-basedapproach.
We want people to.
You know we don't do fluff.
You know we'll tell it how itis, but there's no way in which
(29:01):
you should ever feel as thoughyou're not worthy of picking up
the phone either.
That's the other thing.
Everyone is absolutely worthy.
We're here 24 seven to helpeveryone.
We're open to everyone.
Again, it's shame and guilt.
It's self-limiting and it comesback to and I've got this whole
thing about.
(29:21):
We're really unkind toourselves.
You know we are so unkind toourselves and for me, when I've
actually been doing somereframing about that as well,
you know you do simple things,stupid things.
There you go.
There's a prime example.
But we put labels on everythingthat we do and we internalise
(29:41):
that.
So you know, example being, Iactually just literally had a
conversation in our office aboutbeing kind to yourself and I
was talking to one of themarketing ladies and I was
walking back from my desk and Ikicked the table and I said, oh
you bloody idiot she goes.
Are you or did you just kick thetable?
(30:01):
And I went, oh nicely, playedhorse, because you know it
wasn't a reflection on me beingan idiot.
I kicked the table, it was justan accident.
But what first thing I did wasa negative self-talk.
And how do you be kind toyourself when you've got that
sort of overlay going on theback of your mind?
So it's interesting, becausethe minute you start to switch
(30:25):
and think, let's call out whathappened rather than internalise
it.
I kicked the table egg.
Wow, in the scheme of things, isthat a big deal?
Absolutely not.
Does that make me an idiot?
Absolutely not.
I think what would make me anidiot is if I didn't continue to
reflect on that and go actuallyit is just I kicked the table
(30:45):
egg.
I mean, there are bigger thingsthan people talk other stuff
and you know if you are in thedepths of despair, you know it
could be depression, it couldvery well be some psychotic
disorders.
You've got a whole heap ofother elements that are going on
and it's not necessarily yourown negative self-spec that's
going on.
It's being forced by broadersociety and judgement, as you
(31:07):
said, stigma.
And then you've got self-stigma, you know, am I worthy of
seeking help?
And it's this massiveself-perpetuating cycle.
Speaker 6 (31:19):
It's very powerful about a telephone line.
I mean just to start withtelephone for starters.
It's quite safe and quiteanonymous, like you can pick up
the phone and you can be anybody, you can have any name, you can
have anything you know, and forsome people you know the
thought of walking into a GP andsaying I'm not coping, that's
going to be on my health record.
(31:39):
Is that going to stop megetting a job later.
Those things are terrifying.
So there's something reallypowerful, I think, about a
phone-based service.
And it doesn't matter where youlive.
You know how far away you arefrom the nearest I don't know GP
service or the nearestcommunity-based health service.
You could be in the middle ofwhat?
In the middle of nowhere, butthat support is there for you,
as you just said, 24 hours a day, every single day of the year.
(32:01):
That's a really powerful thingto be able to offer people.
In a way.
I would think that would bequite safe.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
That's a really good point, karenza.
I did forget to think thatwe've got a lot of communities
out there that are really small.
How exposed do you want to feelin those communities?
Now, there is some importantthings to know that, when you do
call our lines, though, thatall of our calls are recorded.
They're recorded for and theusual quality and training
purposes, but also for safetyreasons.
(32:32):
People can access theirrecordings.
It's free to move information.
We have them available ifpeople do request them, but we
also do ask information and,you're right, you can be
completely anonymous.
You could give me whatever nameyou chose to if I answer the
phone.
I wouldn't know any different,because I take everything on
face value.
Some of the stuff that we do ask, though and there is some
(32:55):
demographic things that we doask is useful for our funders.
Now, they never get anydetailed information about every
single caller.
Everything's done as a bulk lot.
So questions about postcode,things like that, because what's
really important for funders isthat they know where they can
potentially target services ifthey need to be designed in
(33:15):
certain places.
We need to know if we'regetting particular calls from
certain members of the callscommunity.
So are we getting people whoare experiencing things right
now that are relevant orspecific for that community.
As well, too, are we being ableand responsive to our
Aboriginal and Torres StraitIslander communities?
(33:36):
So there's those as well, as weask about gender, but, at the
end of the day, we know as muchabout you as you're willing to
share, and it doesn'tnecessarily have to be accurate.
We just have to ask it, so wedo.
Speaker 6 (33:50):
I think that's just important for people listening.
It can be you say it's verybrave.
It can also be terrifying tothink.
I want to take this step.
I want to take this step so toknow that you can do that in a
safe way.
I think it's huge and I wouldactively encourage all of our
listeners.
If you get to that place inspace where it feels dark, where
(34:11):
things don't feel okay anddon't feel safe, but you don't
know where else to go to be ableto pick up the phone and ring,
and we'll make sure that we haveall the numbers in the show
notes so we talked about.
Speaker 5 (34:21):
It's a really big step to call for help or contact
and it can actually start theball rolling for people to
access more services.
And thinking about stigma and Iwas recently reading the
Australian Bureau of StatisticsStatistics about Suicide and you
know, obviously we know thatmen are pretty highly
represented and I was sort ofshocked to see that men over the
(34:46):
age of 85 were some of thehighest people who take their
own lives.
But men's line is one of theservices and we know that mental
health awareness is gettingbetter with men.
But there's many factors inplay with men's mental health
and men's mental health impactsnot only them but their families
, women.
We see this play out in society.
(35:08):
So, jackie, what does men'sline Australia do?
Because I was reading a bitabout it, what kind of things
does it encompass?
Speaker 3 (35:17):
Absolutely Anything that a man wants to talk about.
We don't permit weird sexualstuff which I will put out there
.
We do get, and so obviouslythere are restrictions as to
what I will actually allow ourcouncillors to listen to.
So for their safety we don'tallow that.
But everything else, absolutely.
Men call about relationships,they talk about issues at work,
(35:42):
they talk about dating, theytalk about kids.
There's a whole bunch of stuffthat you often think, oh,
nothing's going to surprise menow.
And then someone will ring andit could be just I'm having
trouble making a decision andyou don't even need to know what
the decision is.
But it's talking through.
How do you make decisions andwhat does the decision have an
(36:06):
impact on your life?
Does men tend to not call ussuicide sweats?
Now, is that because men tendto not call out for help or seek
help when they are suicidal,and maybe that's why suicide
rates for men are higher?
There's one of those thingsAgain.
There's the whole layers ofcomplexity around the suicide
(36:27):
space and help seeking.
But whatever a man wants to talkabout, men's line, australia is
stuffed by both men and womencouncillors.
Now, if a man does call andspecifically requests to speak
to a man.
We don't always have them onshift, so we will try and
endeavour to facilitate a callback if that's what's required.
But what's often a really greatthing for men to do is speak to
(36:52):
women, because if they arehaving relationship difficulties
, it does sometimes provide themthe opportunity to practice.
How is it that you arecommunicating with your loved
ones?
It's different ways in whichyou communicate.
It could be your boss.
There's different things, andso we don't necessarily advocate
and promote men just to speakto men.
(37:13):
But, as I said, we willcertainly facilitate that if we
can.
The interesting stuff about themen over 85, of course, are a
lot smaller cohort, so it's therate of suicide plus.
Also, you have to think.
You know they tend to be morephysically frail and so however
they attempt might end up withan outcome that they're seeking,
(37:34):
not necessarily one that we'rewanting, but certainly it's
women who certainly stillattempt more often.
Speaker 5 (37:43):
Oh yeah, I was going to ask about that and I should
have checked my stats because Iwas actually quite interested to
see that women in probably myage bracket.
I think there's a big story.
There's always stories behindstatistics.
That data tell the stories.
Speaker 6 (37:58):
I think the thing to talk about when we talk about it
is when I think people get tothat place.
You get to that place like youget to rock bottom, the lowest
point that you can get to.
There are ways that you canstep forward.
You know and I think for anyonelistening to this podcast,
there are, you know, I know thattimes in my life I felt like I
can't go any lower than I feelnow.
You know there's moment and,yes, other things magnify it but
(38:20):
you're like, can it get anyworse?
And you know how do I try andfind a way to step forward?
And I think that's the powerfulthing that Lifeline and OTLA
can actually help people tostart to think a bit about.
When everything feels likecompletely like shit, it's
complete crap, I can take a stepforward.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
It's also, you know, if you think about, you know a
bit of context.
So you know, when you've had areally fabulous weekend and you
know, you see someone youhaven't seen for a while and you
just want to, you're reallyepulent, you want to tell them
about your really good news.
But you're like, hi, how areyou going?
And they're like, great, how isyour weekend?
And it's like, oh, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.
(39:03):
Or alternatively, you go, youknow, and sometimes it happens
in the workplace you go to workand it's like, hi, and everyone
goes hi, how are you going?
And no one asks you about yourweekend.
You're a bit deflated.
Now that's if you're feelinggood, if you're already feeling
in a place where you're a bitflat or a little bit.
You know things aren't goinggreat and no one asks you how
(39:23):
you're going, how is yourweekend, what about you?
Who are you as a human being?
And I think some of that stuffis we've lost some of the human
connection, the social nice itis.
You know, how often do you do,oh, yeah, good, thanks.
And then you realize, oh,actually they didn't ask me how
I was, it's just an automatedresponse.
(39:44):
There's some of that stuff thatwe do on wrote without actually
thinking about the impact thatit might have.
And you know, what we'vestopped doing is making
connections with people andagain, you know, as wonderful as
technology is, there's anelement to that, however, I've
got to say I speak to morepeople now using technology than
(40:05):
I would in a face-to-faceoffice.
So that's been fabulous for mebecause it can increase your
scope.
But then again, meeting peopleface-to-face after having seen
them on screen, you know I neverrecognize people because I
never look like the personTwo-dimensional is so different
to a three-dimensional person.
How do you re-engage withsomeone who is a
(40:26):
three-dimensional person Becauseyou realize they're actually a
human being?
Speaker 6 (40:30):
Thinking about that build up to Chrissy and all the
things that come with that.
What do you say to people?
You know, like I'm okay, I'mdoing great.
How can I be aware of otherpeople and what's going on for
other people?
You know how do we take somecare to actually stop and not be
caught up in them.
You know the running around andall the things to actually
pause and look around us a bit.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
You know there's so much demand on all of this in
this Christmas period.
You basically say December'sgone.
You know we're all into January.
At this stage there's so muchdemand on us, on our time, on
our energy, on our resources,and then there's still people
wanting more, because nowthere's a great opportunity for
people saying give the gift ofgiving.
(41:14):
And yet we've already talkedabout the financial crisis and
the impact that this is actuallyhaving on people and again,
that exacerbates more guilt.
So there's elements of that.
It's okay to actually say no,and you know it comes back again
to a little bit of that beingkind to yourself, because one of
(41:35):
the best ways of being kind toyourself is to connect with
another human being.
So how often do we again, as Isaid, those superficial
greetings but really stop andtalk to someone and you catch up
for a coffee, but actually areyou having a coffee sitting
opposite someone or are youhaving a coffee looking forward
(41:59):
and standing next to each otherhaving a coffee?
There's ways in which we'vestopped engaging.
You know we will walk side byside, but we won't look at each
other, and I recently went to aforum and there was men talking
about it and that was actuallywhat they were saying.
Men go out and they sit next toeach other.
They don't make eye contact.
(42:19):
That's not what men do.
They get eye contact, thathuman connection, and you don't
have to say how's your mentalhealth or even you know how are
you doing.
It's the social nice of this,but a little bit more than that.
You could even start the timeoff like, geez, I'm finding this
thing, but it's really rushedand really hard Connect it.
(42:41):
It's really hard on me.
How are you going with it?
Speaker 6 (42:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
It's a way of then reminding people that they're
not the only people to feel likethis.
Speaker 5 (42:50):
Yes, that's important and also thinking you know, the
services that we're talkingabout aren't just for people who
are experiencing crisis.
People who are trying tosupport someone who are
experiencing a crisis or they'reconcerned can call, can't they?
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
We want people to call.
We don't want people to waituntil they're in crisis.
We will offer support to peoplewho are in crisis.
We'll offer support to peoplewho aren't in crisis, but we'll
also offer support to people whoare supporting people, because
being a carer is tough and it'soften absolutely under
recognised, it's undervalued,while someone might be
(43:30):
experiencing their own mentalhealth crisis, their own mental
health concerns.
What about the family?
What about their friends?
How are they coping with thatas well?
So, yeah, all of our lines areopen to have anyone access at
any time.
Speaker 6 (43:45):
That's interesting.
I didn't know that.
I did not know that.
I think there's a reallypowerful message, isn't it?
That you don't have to be in anacute crisis situation to pick
up the phone.
Speaker 5 (43:54):
What made me think of that, Crenzer, is Jackie.
Last year we did an episodewith an educator and
professional who wrote a bookfor parents for when their
children self harm, and it wasinteresting because she said you
know, most parents will just,absolutely, you know, freak out,
understandably, but the bigthing the message came through
is we're going to get throughthis together.
(44:15):
And it made me think of thatbecause it can exacerbate
problems when you're trying tosupport, like a loved one or a
friend, or you're just reallyworried about them and you're
like I don't actually know whatto do.
And I thought, you know,calling someone, like on one of
the lines we're talking about,for some practical advice would
be really useful.
You know that's not advice fromyour mom, your uncle, Bob, so
(44:35):
on.
So down the street, you knowthat kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
It's usually to do with pulling the socks up.
What's really great about someof our lines as well is they've
got some amazing internetresources on their websites, so
you know they could be self helpthings, but it's also
information as well about whathappens, why people are doing
this, what's really going on aswell, and all of our websites
have some, as I said, someamazing resources.
(45:00):
This callback service has asafety planning tool on it as
well, and you know we plan forso much stuff.
We plan for holidays, becausethey're amazing.
We plan for, you know,birthdays, parties, but we never
plan for the what if.
You have your car insurance andyou have your house insurance.
(45:20):
That's a bit of a what if, butwe never do the what if for
ourselves.
And whilst you're well andcapable and able to do so, we
should all think about creatingour own safety plan, Because
through it now rather than whenyou need it, because when you
need it, you're not going to beable to think of where you can
get the resources.
I took my own advice a littlewhile ago and did it myself.
(45:43):
I was like it makes perfectsense to do it right now and it
was a bit weird, but then italso gave me the opportunity to
think about.
I've identified people on mysafety plan that if I need to
talk to I will call them, but itgave me the opportunity to then
think I'm going to give them aheads up.
You're on my safety plan.
Speaker 6 (46:00):
That's powerful.
So the question we ask everyonethat we talk to and Emily and I
are just really big believersin this like self-care, which is
what you're starting to talkabout, but you're taking it to a
whole new level.
When you think about self-care,what are the things that you
practice or do that takes careof you?
And I think we do this becausewe like to encourage our
(46:21):
listeners as well to think aboutalways self-care.
What are the things?
I've never heard of think?
Creating a safety plan, I'mthinking, wow, okay, that's
really interesting.
Who would be my people?
Wow.
And then I would talk to themand say that that is hugely
powerful.
But what other things do you dothat our listeners could think
about?
That's something I can try.
Speaker 3 (46:39):
I'm a reader and I will read.
My husband says you read theBeth of Cornflakes book.
It was sitting in front of you.
True, he's refused to comeshopping with me at the
supermarket any longer, becauseI just love to read and I get a
few information.
Come on, let's go with that.
But I don't read specificgenres because it depends on
(47:00):
where my mind is at.
I love your crime, but youcan't read that all the time
because it just leaves you with.
It's almost like a greasy filmand you think, oh, come on, I
just can't do that anymore.
I'll read romance, I'll readtext book, stuff that is taking
my interest.
I'm your introvert's introvert.
(47:21):
So it actually allows me timeto regroup and get energy for
myself.
And I think what's importantwhen you're doing self care is
knowing whether you are likelyto identify as an introvert or
an extrovert, and by that Idon't mean loud and bubbly.
Where do you get your energyfrom?
I have to regroup.
There are certain times on theday when I think, oh, I'll just
(47:42):
decompress, and that could bejust sitting in the car.
Well, working from home is abit weird, but you know that's
just go out to the car and sitin the car.
But when I was driving placesradio off.
It's my time.
But if I'm in a crowd of peopleI can get energy from other
people.
But sometimes that's reallyexhausting.
Christmas is like that for somepeople Exhausting.
(48:04):
You've got to almost perform,you know.
You've got to be there for yourfamily, your relationships.
Christmas as well is.
I've done it this year, can Ido it again?
And that's what we often see.
Actually, what was surprisedlast year is we tend to see a
decrease in the number of peoplewho call over the Christmas
January period.
(48:25):
We didn't see that last year.
It was the first time we'dactually seen the numbers of
people still calling out remainthe same.
And you know, was that becauseit was really the first year out
of lockdown and you know backto, we can go to Christmas with
great Aunty June when Uncle Bobis telling us to pull our socks
up.
But also there's things likework will continue.
(48:47):
People aren't having the samesorts of holidays.
So all if you are on holidays,you're with your family and it's
intense and it's hard andyou've got to keep giving of
yourself.
Now, for people who don't gettheir energy from others and
don't generate their energy fromothers, that's exhausting and
you need downtime.
So it's very simplistic.
(49:09):
But whether you're an introvertor an extrovert, you can be
both.
There's no, no very cleardelineation, but know that it is
like how to take downtime foryourself.
I would offend who spends timehiding in the loo from her
children.
For her, that's all she can dobecause they're young, they're
toddlers, they're intoeverything and they're still
banging on the door.
(49:29):
But she puts her headphones inand she knows that.
Okay, it's just, she's there.
I just need five minutes.
That's all she needs.
Speaker 6 (49:37):
So we're coming to the end of our conversation,
jackie.
Thank you so much for your time.
Are there any last kind ofwords or thoughts you'd like to
leave with artists and there'san in particular, I think,
around.
You know we gave the triggerwarning at the start.
You know the really difficulttopic, I think, of suicide and
people who are feeling suicidal,in particular at this time of
year.
So any last thoughts that youmight like to share?
Speaker 3 (49:58):
Yeah, thanks, krinta.
I think Cole, cole, before itgets difficult, but also be kind
to yourself.
If you can be there for others.
Speaker 6 (50:11):
Thank you, thank you.
That's terrific advice and Ijust can't, you know, emphasise
the incredible work that you andeverybody at Lifeline and
Online Australia are doing.
It's such a critical service,it's a fabulous piece of, I
think, the mental health servicesystem in here in Australia,
and we're so lucky that we canactually pick up the phone and
(50:32):
speak to trained workers,trained clinicians, trained
people who aren't judgmental,who are going to listen and,
ultimately, who are going tohelp.
So I know there'll be lots ofinformation in the show notes.
All the phone lines will bethere too, but just to remind
people of that phone number forLifeline Australia, it is 131114
.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
You've been listening to Get Real Talking Mental
Health and Disability, broughtto you by the team at Irma 365.
Get Real is produced andpresented by Emily Webb, with
Kerenza Louis Smith and specialguests.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
Get Real is recorded on the unseeded lands of the
Boonarong and Warungery peoplesof the Kulin Nation.
We acknowledge and pay ourrespects to their elders, past
and present.
We also acknowledge that thefirst peoples of Australia are
the first storytellers, thefirst artists and the first
creators of culture, and wecelebrate their enduring
(00:21):
connections to country,knowledge and stories.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Welcome to Get Real talking mental health and
disability brought to you by theteam at PURMA 365.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Join our hosts, emily Webb and Karenza Louise Smith,
as we have frank and fearlessconversations with special
guests about all things mentalhealth and complexity.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
We recognise people with lived experience of mental
health and disability, as wellas their families and carers.
We recognise their strength,courage and unique perspective
as a vital contribution to thispodcast so we can learn, grow
and achieve better outcomestogether.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Everyone is absolutely worthy.
We're here 24-7 to helpeveryone.
We're open to everyone.
We want people to call.
We don't want people to wait tolearn crisis.
We will offer support to peoplewho are in crisis.
We'll offer support to peoplewho aren't in crisis, but we'll
also offer support to people whoare supporting people, because
(01:31):
being a carer is tough and it'soften absolutely under
recognised.
It's undervalued.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
Our guest for this episode is Dr Jacqui Barnfield,
executive Director of ServiceDelivery for Lifeline Direct.
You'll hear us talk about On theLine Australia during this
interview, and that's becauseJacqui was working with them and
recently On the Line Australiaamalgamated with Lifeline
Australia to better addressservice gaps for people to
(02:01):
access care and support aroundthe country.
Jacqui is a registered nursewhose career focus and passion
has been mostly in mental healthand suicide prevention.
She's been a Director ofNursing and Operations in
various roles, and her PhD studyTherapeutic Optimism and
Attitudes Among Medical andSurgical Nurses Towards
(02:23):
Attempted Suicide explored theexperiences of both nurses and
consumers when faced with caringfor or being the recipient of
hospital admission following asuicide attempt.
We're going to be finding outmore about Jacqui and her work,
and also about ways to lookafter ourselves over the
Christmas, holiday and New Yearperiod, which can be difficult
(02:45):
for people for many reasons.
And before we launch into ourconversation, if you're affected
by anything discussed in thisepisode, you can reach out to
Lifeline on 13 11 14.
Welcome to get real, dr Jacqui.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Thank you very much, Emily.
Lovely to be here.
Speaker 5 (03:03):
Now, karinza, before we start chatting with Jacqui,
we explored this topic of extrafocus on self care and mental
health support over theChristmas New Year period for
our last episode of 2022.
And we're revisiting it again.
I don't think we can talk aboutthis enough.
What's your general feeling atthe moment about this time of
year and things that you'redoing to keep mentally well,
(03:25):
because it's a hectic time,there's lots of pressure, and
aspects of life like the cost ofliving crisis have got harder
in the 12 months since we lastspoke about this.
Speaker 6 (03:36):
I think you're right and I think it's interesting,
isn't it?
We were chatting earlieroffline about how Christmas
seems to magnify things.
You know, I think you can findways to get through tough and
difficult times sometimes, butthe expectations that are set
around us at Christmas arereally hard.
To put presents under the trees, to gift to people, to have a
smile on your face, to show up,to be happy, and you know, for
(03:59):
some people that is just toodifficult, too much and too hard
.
And then you know there's thatsense of I failed, I haven't
done well enough, I'm not doinggood enough If I can't do some
of those things.
So I think the pressure thatChristmas brings is huge.
And then, of course, if we lookat what's going on in the world
, I mean it's pretty depressingand you know, it's pretty awful
when you see, I guess, some ofthe conflicts that are happening
(04:19):
in the world, people dying, allof those things I think can
magnify sadness for people aswell too.
So I think these conversationsthat we have around Christmas
are really important, becausefinding ways to recognise that
but also take care of ourselvesis really, really important.
And you know, preparing, Ithink, to get yourself through
(04:40):
the sort of festive season isreally important, so I'm really
looking forward to today'sconversation.
In particular, I like callingyou Dr Jackie, so I'm thrilled
that you've joined us, for, getReal, you've got a background as
a clinician.
You're also a registered nurseas well.
Can you talk to us a bit about,I guess, your expertise and
(05:00):
what's brought you into thisarea of work?
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Dr.
Jackie, it's so weird.
I'm going to have to take youback, like to the last century
really, to give you a little bitof context to how I got here.
At least we're early enough inthe century I can say that it
doesn't feel that long ago, butit is so a really long time ago.
It comes back to high schoolwhen you're picking what it is
that you want to do.
I had no idea Actually,originally I thought I wanted to
be a park ranger and I realizedthat it was going to be cold at
(05:27):
some point.
I didn't really like the coldweather, so it was like, okay,
that's not for me, somethingthat's going to be indoors.
And you know, we've all gotlike a favorite uncle or
favorite auntie.
They're the fun one, the onewho inspires, without actually
even knowing that they inspireyou.
I said just cool, and I had acool uncle.
He was a mental health nurseand I thought actually I could
(05:48):
be a mental health nurse.
Would I be as cool as him?
I don't know, that's irrelevantnow.
And it was interesting becausehe was, you know, in the UK, in
here in Australia, the year thatI was applying to become a
nurse.
It was my last year of highschool they no longer ran the
mental health nursing specificqualification, so I did my
(06:09):
registered nursing bachelor atMonash Uni and throughout that I
just I found that all of theclinical placements within the
mental health sphere reallyresonated for me and I just felt
more real being in those spacesthan you know.
Hospitals are really artificialplaces.
You know people go, they'reunwell, and you know that you
(06:29):
see people when they're at themost vulnerable, when they are
at the most unwell, and that'swhere you spend most of your
time.
So, irrespective of whether itbe in a medical ward or a
psychiatric ward or a mentalhealth ward however you want to
phrase it you see people whenthey're considered to be at
their most unwell or at their,you know, a pinnacle of a crisis
.
I will come back to that in alittle while and give you a
(06:50):
little bit more context to wheremy thinking is now.
So I started off and, you know,really kicked off in the mental
health space with an associatenurse manager really early on in
my career and I remember I callit my defining moment and it
really defines why I've chosenthe career trajectory there's a
(07:10):
word I can't say Trajectory thatI'm here now and my defining
moment is this I was working onthe inpatient unit and you know
I was that nurse that he thinkoh, that's so cool to be, you
know, to answer phones couldvector doctors.
I was like the octopus in themind really, as a nurse leader
in that space.
(07:31):
And then we had this lady comein and it was Joan.
Now it's easy to remember Joanbecause, as I said, I've
attached her to my definingmoment and my career trajectory.
But Joan came into us from anursing home and she was very
confused, very disorientated, asshe would be taking out of her
natural environment.
It was the old, old designs ofmental health units they used to
(07:54):
have.
This was like a fishbowl glassall around the nurse's station
to give a perspective or a viewof the ward for safety reasons,
apparently Whole other dynamicaround that.
But she was at the window a lottapping and she was, you know,
tapping on the window frequentlyand it was almost constant
pretty much for three days.
(08:15):
So she came into us on theFriday by the Monday like we're
all exhausted because we weretrying to reorientate Joan, get
her back to her space she wassafe and where she was
constantly having to try andreorientate someone who was so
unable to actually hear whatyou're actually saying.
And it got to Monday and it'sstopped.
(08:37):
And I remember vividly standingin the middle of the office
thinking, oh crap, we failedJoan.
And I had an absolute epiphanyand I went back and I had a look
she was getting massive dosesof medication when she was at
the nursing home and she came tous and it wasn't picked up.
(08:59):
She wasn't prescribed that highlevel of medication.
So for three days Joan wentthrough withdrawal that we were
completely oblivious to and Icall it my defining moment
because I just realised that'snot the nurse I want to be.
So whilst I got caught up in thehype of being able to do
everything, I lost my purpose.
I lost myself in that thing ofwhat I thought was the important
(09:23):
, and it was important to theorganisation, not the important
to the individual.
And immediately I left theoffice safely.
But I left the office and wentaround and spoke to my director
of nursing and said how do Ibecome an educator?
I want to be able to be in aspace where I can influence more
people, to not make the areathat I just made.
I speeded up a little bit morenow because we've done the
(09:50):
important part of that story.
So it became an educator for aperiod of time, became the
manager of an education team,had much more influence than
being able to really specialiseand hone in on the delivery of
education in a tertiary mentalhealth hospital.
Then I had the opportunity towork in another organisation and
there was a vacancy for adirector of nursing role open.
(10:12):
I thought how hard can it be?
It's not much different to aneducator.
That was an interestingexperience.
It's one of those things thatyou don't know what you don't
know until you find out youreally don't know it.
So that was a massive learningcurve for me and I look back now
and I think that was such anamazing opportunity.
And there's something if I hadknown what was expected, I
probably wouldn't have beenbrave enough to try it.
(10:33):
Now again, being a director ofnursing, you can influence, you
can't necessarily mandate.
So I realised that in fact, Ineeded to be in the operational
space as well and became anoperations director tagline
alongside with my director ofnursing role, and I had a
fabulous mentor who enabled meto develop that role as it was.
(10:57):
Now comes to the reallyimportant part of this Now.
I said before that there arelots of people in crisis that
really are well when they're inhospital.
During COVID, I took stock andI realised that I'd lost the joy
in what it was that I was doing.
In hospitals.
There's no people coming in,there's no visitors, no one to
engage.
I wasn't allowed to go to thewards because of potential
(11:19):
infection.
So I was in my office and I'mlike what am I doing?
So I left and I decided to joincompletely different.
Get back on the tools.
I became a clinician again,which really kick started.
Ah, there's my true north.
That's what I'm here for, andI've then since spent the last
two and a half three yearsapologising to every single
(11:42):
person I've come across in theprimary health sector Because of
that sea snobbery.
Tertiary is the hardest part ofthe world, absolutely wrong.
The people who work in theprimary health sector, who work
in the community sector, are theones doing it tough.
That's where I am at today.
Sort of it doesn't quite giveyou where I am now with on the
(12:04):
line, but I'm fairly sure we'regoing to meander into that
sector shortly.
I'll leave you with my definingmoment.
Speaker 6 (12:12):
Thank you and trigger warning for our listeners.
We are going to talk a littlebit about suicide and suicide
prevention so something thatyou're really passionate about
and services that support peopleas well following suicide
attempts.
You know full disclosure, sharethat passion.
You know I was in a familyliving in a family where my
grandfather took his own lifeand I've seen the impact that
(12:32):
that had on my dad, who was ayoung boy at the time, and that
long kind of term trauma andthings that happen.
Your PhD focused on hospitalcare receiving and delivering
care for people who haveattempted to end their lives.
You know that's a huge topic toexplore.
What was it that kind of drewyou to that and what is it that
(12:52):
you know when you think aboutthat that you actually want to
achieve?
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Thank you.
Interesting, one of theactually the reason I selected
that topic I was thinking aboutyou know what do you do when
you've done a lot of study?
What's next?
And one of my professionalcolleagues and a friend actually
attempted suicide.
So a mental health professional, an educator, highly qualified,
(13:21):
and it was like, okay, that'sher, that's her journey.
And we were talking one dayafter about her experiences and
she said you know what reallygot me out?
Sorry, I didn't say she's alsoa mental health nurse, so she
knew what she should have beenexpecting.
So she was in the emergencydepartment and she she was
(13:43):
talking about how, you know, thenurses were engaging with her
or not engaging with her, and infact she didn't get a lot of
conversation from the nurses inthe emergency department.
But she said what really hither hard was when the nurse from
the emergency department wasdoing the handover, when you're
transitioning care from one partof the hospital to another, and
(14:04):
she overheard the nurse sayshe's been a naughty girl and it
was such a label and in fact Idid a presentation on that I've.
You know I interviewed herabout that experience, what it
really meant for her, and thathe started me on the journey.
Why would a nurse say such athing?
And you know, is it that nursesare judgmental or is it that
(14:26):
nurses just don't know what tosay?
So that was really what I was.
I was trying to unpack in thisspace around.
Do the people caring for anyone?
Because you know, the ED isreally the major front door for
hospitals.
Yes, now there's a whole heapof research on emergency nurses
in that space.
So I thought, okay, that's beendone.
(14:47):
What about general nurses?
And there's little in thatspace.
And then people go from,obviously, the emergency ward to
medical wards, should it berequired.
So that's where I focus myresearch.
So I was able to interview afew consumers who were very
privileged to be able tointerview a few consumers who
are willing to share theirexperiences and also do some
(15:09):
surveys and interviews withnurses who work in that space.
What was fascinating about it isthe nurses really want to do
the right thing.
They just don't know what theright thing is.
The wards themselves aren't setup to provide a safe
environment and they know that.
So what you often see and theconsumers are saying you know,
(15:30):
the nurses were in the roombecause often a four bed,
because they would put people inmultiple rooms so that it
decreased the risk to havepeople around.
But they say the nurse wouldnever come and talk to me, but
that always be in the room andthey'd be doing something with
someone else.
So I'm sitting there doingnothing and I talked to the
nurse about that and what weunpacked was, in fact, the
(15:52):
nurses are in there and they'redoing this whole bunch of
busyness and they're being busybecause they're really anxious
that whatever they're going todo or say to the person is going
to be wrong.
So what really connected was,in fact it's all a defence
mechanism that the way in whichnurses behave towards some of
(16:13):
the people who were coming undertheir care, it was anxiety
driven.
They just did not know what todo.
Speaker 6 (16:18):
They wanted to do what they could and that's
probably reflective, not justnursing people listening to us.
They'd be thinking I don't knowwhat I would say.
You know what do you say whensomeone starts to talk about
having feelings of suicidal orsuicidal ideations and I don't
want to be here anymore.
It's like one of the most scarythings I think for someone to
(16:39):
hear.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
It is.
You know, we focus so much onlife and then when someone is
actually talking about, we focusso much on wanting to prolong
life and, you know, get olderand have a healthy age, but then
when people are thinking aboutending their own life on their
own volition, it's like, oh,what a really confronting thing
to be posed with.
It's frightening, and for me,what I think about that, people
(17:03):
who are willing to sit andlisten to someone who talks
about you know their feelingsabout suicidality even before it
even gets to that point.
Someone who's willing to sitand listen to someone else's
burdens is extraordinarily brave, because we know that one of
the single biggest risk factorsfor suicide is isolation.
It's loneliness.
And if you've got no one toshare any of that stuff with,
(17:26):
where do you go?
And if you've got nowhere to go, all it does is exacerbate that
.
I'm alone, I'm isolated.
No one else feels like this.
I've got no one else to carrymy burden.
Speaker 5 (17:37):
It's so interesting and important to hear.
I have a 17 year old daughterwho's in year 12 next year and
she's quite keen on doingnursing, and I have a husband
who came to nursing late when wemoved back to Australia.
He's from the UK and my mum wasa nurse for nearly 50 years.
I'm going to ask you a fewquestions about nursing a bit
later, if I can.
So, jackie, you know youchanged track, got so much
(18:01):
experience, so can you tell usmore about the services that on
the line deliver?
Do they do some reallyimportant stuff?
And also a bit about theamalgamation that happened quite
recently, I think in October,with Lifeline Australia?
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Thanks, emily.
It's easy to talk about theamalgamation and then I can talk
about the services.
So Lifeline and on the lineAustralia amalgamated, so
voluntary amalgamation, on the1st of October of this year.
So people listening, what doesamalgamation mean?
Oh, we've joined forces, sowe're now under one combined
banner Great question.
Thanks, karenza.
(18:34):
I say voluntary as well becauseI don't want people to think
that there was a takeover or oneis bigger or better than the
other.
We actually are very much ashared organisation.
Now we came together bothvoluntarily, the reason being
both organisations reallyresonate.
Our purpose resonated, ourmission resonated, the things
(18:55):
that we do.
We're both providing servicesin the digital mental health
space, some clinically, some notso clinically.
Absolutely the 13, 11, 14number that you raised before.
I think almost every personknows that number, which is
awesome, because it just meansthat everyone in Australia has
somewhere to go at any point intheir time, irrespective of what
(19:18):
it is.
Now the amalgamation, so priorto it, on the line Australia.
So I will actually do a bit ofa spree.
On the line Australia, we'rethree years older than Lifeline,
so there's a little bit offriendly banter about that.
So on the line started 1960,lifeline 1963.
(19:38):
So Lifeline now runs the on theline previous lines.
So previous lines being, or asthey are now, men's Line
Australia Suicide CallbackService.
So both of those are nationalhelplines.
I'll talk a bit about what thatactually means in a second.
We've got Suicide Line Victoria, which is available only to
(20:01):
those in Victoria, and we run acouple of services for some of
the primary health networks inSouth Australia, in Victoria and
in New South Wales.
Now when I say we run them, weprovide it's 24 7365, it'll be
366 days next year.
Happy leave here.
(20:21):
And what I say so is it'speople can pick up the phone at
any time and give us a call.
We've always got people thereready and able to answer your
call.
I will talk a little bit aboutpeak times.
We do get peak times andsometimes it's to actually plan
when they're going to be andalso know when a peak is going
(20:44):
to occur, because obviouslysometimes people call in
response to something that'sgoing on in the community and
you're a bit of lag behind onthat.
Hypoclea, peak times arebetween about 5 and 11pm, which
makes sense.
You've got people home fromschool, they finish work.
It may be that meal times areover into the evening.
Kids have gone to bed.
(21:05):
Not to say that we're quietduring the day, but we are
certainly busier in the evening.
It doesn't necessarily quietdown overnight, but we tend to
have some, I guess, some peoplewho call more frequently
overnight because for themthat's their day, which makes
sense.
We're 24-7, so we're availablefor shift workers, which is
(21:26):
awesome.
We're available for when peopleneed us.
It's when they decide that theyneed a call, which again comes
back to being really brave aboutputting themselves out there.
I need help, I need someone totalk to picking up the phone and
reaching out, doing that.
We've got phone availability.
We've got chat availability.
(21:46):
Both of those can be done ondemand.
We've also got videoavailability as well, and that
is made by appointment.
It's a little bit more complexto set up, so appointment-based.
What we offer is counselling Forthose people, and I know
there's a lot of services outthere where there are massive
amounts of wait lists to getinto.
(22:07):
There's often quite high priceassociated with that.
Certainly, there are supportswith under the Medicare Benefit
Scheme.
What's really good about ourservices is they're free.
Doesn't matter who you are,where you are, where you're
based, they are 100% free.
They're even a free call.
Now we do inbound and outboundcalls, so inbound pick up the
(22:29):
phone and you're callingstraight away.
You will get to speak to acounsellor straight away as soon
as you get through.
As I said, there are some peaktimes, so it might mean that the
time to get onto the call mighttake a little bit longer, but
we certainly do try to answer asmany calls as quickly as we
possibly can.
We don't predict how long thewait list is going to be or how
much time you're going to bewaiting on the phone, because we
(22:50):
don't know how much time weneed to spend with someone who's
on the call before you.
What we do try to do, though,is pick to about a 20-minute
time frame, because we don'twant to delve into stuff that
becomes too hard to unpack in aphone call or in a chat, and
also we're not face-to-facecounsellors, so there are things
that we don't do in digitalcounselling that you would do in
(23:14):
face-to-face, and some of thatstuff is really building that
relationship, getting to knowsomeone a little bit more
closely, aligned with what theywant to talk about.
I mean, we do talk about thingslike what got you here, what's
going on for you right now, butit's done in a really condensed
way.
So there inbound, there aresingle sessions, so I can talk
through the model that we have asolution focus, brief therapy
(23:37):
approach.
So what we do is we ask peopleto identify what sets brought
you to pick up the phone today.
Why are you calling and no oneever rings?
For one reason, but in 20minutes we need people to focus
on the one reason and it'sactually a really powerful tool
to get them to think aboutwhat's the one thing that is
(23:59):
bothering you more thaneverything else, because it's
typically that destroy, thatbreak the camel's back.
You know you've got a wholebunch of stuff that goes on in
people's lives all the time, butthere's one thing that made
them pick up the phone today.
What was it?
Okay, it might not be the finalthing that got them to think,
oh, I need to call someone.
It could be the first thingthat it's really been bothering
(24:20):
them, but it's been bubblingaway and it's never really been
resolved.
So we get people to think aboutwhat is that number one thing
you really want to focus onright now in this call and then
ask them to write a level ofdistress that it causes them.
Right now.
We call that a consumer'sself-rated distress scale.
What that does a reallypowerful tool is it gets them to
(24:41):
think about oh, how much of animpact does this have on my life
?
If you've got four or fivedifferent things, then you can
do a quick mental check andthink, okay, is it my
relationship issues?
Is it my work, is it financialconcerns?
You go, okay, oh, that's maybea four, that might be a five,
that might be a two.
(25:02):
Oh, that's an eight.
I didn't really think about itthat much until it actually you
get the question.
So, with that, then that's theplan on the opportunity for the
counselor and the consumer toreally talk through what that
issue is.
And you know there's a wholebunch of counseling tools,
mechanisms that are reallyskilled professional counselors
(25:23):
use.
Now I will just tap in.
So our counselors are allprofessional counselors.
They are either qualified incounseling psychology, they're
either mental health socialworkers or they could be mental
health nurses.
Lots of experience, lots ofqualifications.
They are experts in deliveringdigital mental health service
(25:44):
delivery.
Speaker 6 (25:46):
So, jackie, I was reading an article in the
Guardian.
That is not unusual now for youguys to receive more than 4,000
inbound calls a day.
Is that right, 4,000?
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Yeah, lifeline yeah, 13, 11, 14, whether it be by
phone or text.
Speaker 6 (26:03):
That's a phenomenal number, that's huge, and they
talked as well in the Guardianabout the rising costs of living
, kind of being a major driverfor this.
You know I was thinking I wasin the supermarket the other day
and doing my groceries shoppinggrief like you know the how
much it's risen.
Are you seeing a lot morepeople come into you with
financial distress and anxietyand things that are happening as
(26:26):
a result of that?
Speaker 3 (26:28):
It waxes and wanes.
I mean we've had people who'vebeen calling around financial
difficulties well before COVID,but certainly over the last
little while we are seeing anincrease.
The other reasons people stillcall.
They're still struggling to getover what happened during COVID
as well.
You know, getting back to thenew normal there's still trying
to work out how to reengage,still stuck in you know, that
(26:53):
isolation, that loneliness,being able to rebuild
relationships and reconnect withpeople.
The financial stuff isabsolutely how awful to have to
decide whether you're gonna paya bill or whether you're gonna
eat, whether you are gonna eator whether you're gonna give
your child the last bit of food.
Speaker 6 (27:11):
Or the business presence that they want.
Right, that's kind of anup-down, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Yeah, with that there's this absolute,
inordinate amount of shame.
And it's not anyone's fault.
We say it all the time mentalhealth, it's not your fault, but
shame and guilt are emotionsthat we put on ourselves Again.
Probably.
I mean there's layers to it,but there's the comparison to
(27:36):
you know, I'd love to be able togive my family blah, or I'd
love to be in a situation to beable to provide blah, but also
we don't have a.
You know, we don't have theutopian society.
What we have is a place wherethere are people who are living
very far below the poverty line.
You know, we've got people atthe poverty line and we have
(27:58):
people who are getting through.
We've got people who aregetting through a bit better and
we've got people who are notstruggling or needing help in
any way, shape or form in afinancial perspective, but that
doesn't mean that they're mentalhealth any better.
Speaker 6 (28:12):
No, I'm interested when you talk about that kind of
sense of shame.
You know that shame, thefailure, you know, but also the
stigma piece, I think as well.
And I think there are peopleperhaps that are listening to
the podcast thinking I'vethought about ringing, but I
never have and I haven't becauseI feel silly.
You know, if I say it it's real.
All of those things.
What would you say to someonethat's sort of sitting in that
(28:34):
space, that inner turmoil andbattle?
Speaker 3 (28:38):
I could have said before you know, I think you're
really brave if you call.
There's no way you would everfeel as though a councillor
would never say you should feelashamed, you should feel guilt
about what's going on.
We work in a strength-basedapproach.
We want people to.
You know we don't do fluff.
You know we'll tell it how itis, but there's no way in which
(29:01):
you should ever feel as thoughyou're not worthy of picking up
the phone either.
That's the other thing.
Everyone is absolutely worthy.
We're here 24 seven to helpeveryone.
We're open to everyone.
Again, it's shame and guilt.
It's self-limiting and it comesback to and I've got this whole
thing about.
(29:21):
We're really unkind toourselves.
You know we are so unkind toourselves and for me, when I've
actually been doing somereframing about that as well,
you know you do simple things,stupid things.
There you go.
There's a prime example.
But we put labels on everythingthat we do and we internalise
(29:41):
that.
So you know, example being, Iactually just literally had a
conversation in our office aboutbeing kind to yourself and I
was talking to one of themarketing ladies and I was
walking back from my desk and Ikicked the table and I said, oh
you bloody idiot she goes.
Are you or did you just kick thetable?
(30:01):
And I went, oh nicely, playedhorse, because you know it
wasn't a reflection on me beingan idiot.
I kicked the table, it was justan accident.
But what first thing I did wasa negative self-talk.
And how do you be kind toyourself when you've got that
sort of overlay going on theback of your mind?
So it's interesting, becausethe minute you start to switch
(30:25):
and think, let's call out whathappened rather than internalise
it.
I kicked the table egg.
Wow, in the scheme of things, isthat a big deal?
Absolutely not.
Does that make me an idiot?
Absolutely not.
I think what would make me anidiot is if I didn't continue to
reflect on that and go actuallyit is just I kicked the table
(30:45):
egg.
I mean, there are bigger thingsthan people talk other stuff
and you know if you are in thedepths of despair, you know it
could be depression, it couldvery well be some psychotic
disorders.
You've got a whole heap ofother elements that are going on
and it's not necessarily yourown negative self-spec that's
going on.
It's being forced by broadersociety and judgement, as you
(31:07):
said, stigma.
And then you've got self-stigma, you know, am I worthy of
seeking help?
And it's this massiveself-perpetuating cycle.
Speaker 6 (31:19):
It's very powerful about a telephone line.
I mean just to start withtelephone for starters.
It's quite safe and quiteanonymous, like you can pick up
the phone and you can be anybody, you can have any name, you can
have anything you know, and forsome people you know the
thought of walking into a GP andsaying I'm not coping, that's
going to be on my health record.
(31:39):
Is that going to stop megetting a job later.
Those things are terrifying.
So there's something reallypowerful, I think, about a
phone-based service.
And it doesn't matter where youlive.
You know how far away you arefrom the nearest I don't know GP
service or the nearestcommunity-based health service.
You could be in the middle ofwhat?
In the middle of nowhere, butthat support is there for you,
as you just said, 24 hours a day, every single day of the year.
(32:01):
That's a really powerful thingto be able to offer people.
In a way.
I would think that would bequite safe.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
That's a really good point, karenza.
I did forget to think thatwe've got a lot of communities
out there that are really small.
How exposed do you want to feelin those communities?
Now, there is some importantthings to know that, when you do
call our lines, though, thatall of our calls are recorded.
They're recorded for and theusual quality and training
purposes, but also for safetyreasons.
(32:32):
People can access theirrecordings.
It's free to move information.
We have them available ifpeople do request them, but we
also do ask information and,you're right, you can be
completely anonymous.
You could give me whatever nameyou chose to if I answer the
phone.
I wouldn't know any different,because I take everything on
face value.
Some of the stuff that we do ask, though and there is some
(32:55):
demographic things that we doask is useful for our funders.
Now, they never get anydetailed information about every
single caller.
Everything's done as a bulk lot.
So questions about postcode,things like that, because what's
really important for funders isthat they know where they can
potentially target services ifthey need to be designed in
(33:15):
certain places.
We need to know if we'regetting particular calls from
certain members of the callscommunity.
So are we getting people whoare experiencing things right
now that are relevant orspecific for that community.
As well, too, are we being ableand responsive to our
Aboriginal and Torres StraitIslander communities?
(33:36):
So there's those as well, as weask about gender, but, at the
end of the day, we know as muchabout you as you're willing to
share, and it doesn'tnecessarily have to be accurate.
We just have to ask it, so wedo.
Speaker 6 (33:50):
I think that's just important for people listening.
It can be you say it's verybrave.
It can also be terrifying tothink.
I want to take this step.
I want to take this step so toknow that you can do that in a
safe way.
I think it's huge and I wouldactively encourage all of our
listeners.
If you get to that place inspace where it feels dark, where
(34:11):
things don't feel okay anddon't feel safe, but you don't
know where else to go to be ableto pick up the phone and ring,
and we'll make sure that we haveall the numbers in the show
notes so we talked about.
Speaker 5 (34:21):
It's a really big step to call for help or contact
and it can actually start theball rolling for people to
access more services.
And thinking about stigma and Iwas recently reading the
Australian Bureau of StatisticsStatistics about Suicide and you
know, obviously we know thatmen are pretty highly
represented and I was sort ofshocked to see that men over the
(34:46):
age of 85 were some of thehighest people who take their
own lives.
But men's line is one of theservices and we know that mental
health awareness is gettingbetter with men.
But there's many factors inplay with men's mental health
and men's mental health impactsnot only them but their families
, women.
We see this play out in society.
(35:08):
So, jackie, what does men'sline Australia do?
Because I was reading a bitabout it, what kind of things
does it encompass?
Speaker 3 (35:17):
Absolutely Anything that a man wants to talk about.
We don't permit weird sexualstuff which I will put out there
.
We do get, and so obviouslythere are restrictions as to
what I will actually allow ourcouncillors to listen to.
So for their safety we don'tallow that.
But everything else, absolutely.
Men call about relationships,they talk about issues at work,
(35:42):
they talk about dating, theytalk about kids.
There's a whole bunch of stuffthat you often think, oh,
nothing's going to surprise menow.
And then someone will ring andit could be just I'm having
trouble making a decision andyou don't even need to know what
the decision is.
But it's talking through.
How do you make decisions andwhat does the decision have an
(36:06):
impact on your life?
Does men tend to not call ussuicide sweats?
Now, is that because men tendto not call out for help or seek
help when they are suicidal,and maybe that's why suicide
rates for men are higher?
There's one of those thingsAgain.
There's the whole layers ofcomplexity around the suicide
(36:27):
space and help seeking.
But whatever a man wants to talkabout, men's line, australia is
stuffed by both men and womencouncillors.
Now, if a man does call andspecifically requests to speak
to a man.
We don't always have them onshift, so we will try and
endeavour to facilitate a callback if that's what's required.
But what's often a really greatthing for men to do is speak to
(36:52):
women, because if they arehaving relationship difficulties
, it does sometimes provide themthe opportunity to practice.
How is it that you arecommunicating with your loved
ones?
It's different ways in whichyou communicate.
It could be your boss.
There's different things, andso we don't necessarily advocate
and promote men just to speakto men.
(37:13):
But, as I said, we willcertainly facilitate that if we
can.
The interesting stuff about themen over 85, of course, are a
lot smaller cohort, so it's therate of suicide plus.
Also, you have to think.
You know they tend to be morephysically frail and so however
they attempt might end up withan outcome that they're seeking,
(37:34):
not necessarily one that we'rewanting, but certainly it's
women who certainly stillattempt more often.
Speaker 5 (37:43):
Oh yeah, I was going to ask about that and I should
have checked my stats because Iwas actually quite interested to
see that women in probably myage bracket.
I think there's a big story.
There's always stories behindstatistics.
That data tell the stories.
Speaker 6 (37:58):
I think the thing to talk about when we talk about it
is when I think people get tothat place.
You get to that place like youget to rock bottom, the lowest
point that you can get to.
There are ways that you canstep forward.
You know and I think for anyonelistening to this podcast,
there are, you know, I know thattimes in my life I felt like I
can't go any lower than I feelnow.
You know there's moment and,yes, other things magnify it but
(38:20):
you're like, can it get anyworse?
And you know how do I try andfind a way to step forward?
And I think that's the powerfulthing that Lifeline and OTLA
can actually help people tostart to think a bit about.
When everything feels likecompletely like shit, it's
complete crap, I can take a stepforward.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
It's also, you know, if you think about, you know a
bit of context.
So you know, when you've had areally fabulous weekend and you
know, you see someone youhaven't seen for a while and you
just want to, you're reallyepulent, you want to tell them
about your really good news.
But you're like, hi, how areyou going?
And they're like, great, how isyour weekend?
And it's like, oh, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.
(39:03):
Or alternatively, you go, youknow, and sometimes it happens
in the workplace you go to workand it's like, hi, and everyone
goes hi, how are you going?
And no one asks you about yourweekend.
You're a bit deflated.
Now that's if you're feelinggood, if you're already feeling
in a place where you're a bitflat or a little bit.
You know things aren't goinggreat and no one asks you how
(39:23):
you're going, how is yourweekend, what about you?
Who are you as a human being?
And I think some of that stuffis we've lost some of the human
connection, the social nice itis.
You know, how often do you do,oh, yeah, good, thanks.
And then you realize, oh,actually they didn't ask me how
I was, it's just an automatedresponse.
(39:44):
There's some of that stuff thatwe do on wrote without actually
thinking about the impact thatit might have.
And you know, what we'vestopped doing is making
connections with people andagain, you know, as wonderful as
technology is, there's anelement to that, however, I've
got to say I speak to morepeople now using technology than
(40:05):
I would in a face-to-faceoffice.
So that's been fabulous for mebecause it can increase your
scope.
But then again, meeting peopleface-to-face after having seen
them on screen, you know I neverrecognize people because I
never look like the personTwo-dimensional is so different
to a three-dimensional person.
How do you re-engage withsomeone who is a
(40:26):
three-dimensional person Becauseyou realize they're actually a
human being?
Speaker 6 (40:30):
Thinking about that build up to Chrissy and all the
things that come with that.
What do you say to people?
You know, like I'm okay, I'mdoing great.
How can I be aware of otherpeople and what's going on for
other people?
You know how do we take somecare to actually stop and not be
caught up in them.
You know the running around andall the things to actually
pause and look around us a bit.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
You know there's so much demand on all of this in
this Christmas period.
You basically say December'sgone.
You know we're all into January.
At this stage there's so muchdemand on us, on our time, on
our energy, on our resources,and then there's still people
wanting more, because nowthere's a great opportunity for
people saying give the gift ofgiving.
(41:14):
And yet we've already talkedabout the financial crisis and
the impact that this is actuallyhaving on people and again,
that exacerbates more guilt.
So there's elements of that.
It's okay to actually say no,and you know it comes back again
to a little bit of that beingkind to yourself, because one of
(41:35):
the best ways of being kind toyourself is to connect with
another human being.
So how often do we again, as Isaid, those superficial
greetings but really stop andtalk to someone and you catch up
for a coffee, but actually areyou having a coffee sitting
opposite someone or are youhaving a coffee looking forward
(41:59):
and standing next to each otherhaving a coffee?
There's ways in which we'vestopped engaging.
You know we will walk side byside, but we won't look at each
other, and I recently went to aforum and there was men talking
about it and that was actuallywhat they were saying.
Men go out and they sit next toeach other.
They don't make eye contact.
(42:19):
That's not what men do.
They get eye contact, thathuman connection, and you don't
have to say how's your mentalhealth or even you know how are
you doing.
It's the social nice of this,but a little bit more than that.
You could even start the timeoff like, geez, I'm finding this
thing, but it's really rushedand really hard Connect it.
(42:41):
It's really hard on me.
How are you going with it?
Speaker 6 (42:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
It's a way of then reminding people that they're
not the only people to feel likethis.
Speaker 5 (42:50):
Yes, that's important and also thinking you know, the
services that we're talkingabout aren't just for people who
are experiencing crisis.
People who are trying tosupport someone who are
experiencing a crisis or they'reconcerned can call, can't they?
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
We want people to call.
We don't want people to waituntil they're in crisis.
We will offer support to peoplewho are in crisis.
We'll offer support to peoplewho aren't in crisis, but we'll
also offer support to people whoare supporting people, because
being a carer is tough and it'soften absolutely under
recognised, it's undervalued,while someone might be
(43:30):
experiencing their own mentalhealth crisis, their own mental
health concerns.
What about the family?
What about their friends?
How are they coping with thatas well?
So, yeah, all of our lines areopen to have anyone access at
any time.
Speaker 6 (43:45):
That's interesting.
I didn't know that.
I did not know that.
I think there's a reallypowerful message, isn't it?
That you don't have to be in anacute crisis situation to pick
up the phone.
Speaker 5 (43:54):
What made me think of that, Crenzer, is Jackie.
Last year we did an episodewith an educator and
professional who wrote a bookfor parents for when their
children self harm, and it wasinteresting because she said you
know, most parents will just,absolutely, you know, freak out,
understandably, but the bigthing the message came through
is we're going to get throughthis together.
(44:15):
And it made me think of thatbecause it can exacerbate
problems when you're trying tosupport, like a loved one or a
friend, or you're just reallyworried about them and you're
like I don't actually know whatto do.
And I thought, you know,calling someone, like on one of
the lines we're talking about,for some practical advice would
be really useful.
You know that's not advice fromyour mom, your uncle, Bob, so
(44:35):
on.
So down the street, you knowthat kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
It's usually to do with pulling the socks up.
What's really great about someof our lines as well is they've
got some amazing internetresources on their websites, so
you know they could be self helpthings, but it's also
information as well about whathappens, why people are doing
this, what's really going on aswell, and all of our websites
have some, as I said, someamazing resources.
(45:00):
This callback service has asafety planning tool on it as
well, and you know we plan forso much stuff.
We plan for holidays, becausethey're amazing.
We plan for, you know,birthdays, parties, but we never
plan for the what if.
You have your car insurance andyou have your house insurance.
(45:20):
That's a bit of a what if, butwe never do the what if for
ourselves.
And whilst you're well andcapable and able to do so, we
should all think about creatingour own safety plan, Because
through it now rather than whenyou need it, because when you
need it, you're not going to beable to think of where you can
get the resources.
I took my own advice a littlewhile ago and did it myself.
(45:43):
I was like it makes perfectsense to do it right now and it
was a bit weird, but then italso gave me the opportunity to
think about.
I've identified people on mysafety plan that if I need to
talk to I will call them, but itgave me the opportunity to then
think I'm going to give them aheads up.
You're on my safety plan.
Speaker 6 (46:00):
That's powerful.
So the question we ask everyonethat we talk to and Emily and I
are just really big believersin this like self-care, which is
what you're starting to talkabout, but you're taking it to a
whole new level.
When you think about self-care,what are the things that you
practice or do that takes careof you?
And I think we do this becausewe like to encourage our
(46:21):
listeners as well to think aboutalways self-care.
What are the things?
I've never heard of think?
Creating a safety plan, I'mthinking, wow, okay, that's
really interesting.
Who would be my people?
Wow.
And then I would talk to themand say that that is hugely
powerful.
But what other things do you dothat our listeners could think
about?
That's something I can try.
Speaker 3 (46:39):
I'm a reader and I will read.
My husband says you read theBeth of Cornflakes book.
It was sitting in front of you.
True, he's refused to comeshopping with me at the
supermarket any longer, becauseI just love to read and I get a
few information.
Come on, let's go with that.
But I don't read specificgenres because it depends on
(47:00):
where my mind is at.
I love your crime, but youcan't read that all the time
because it just leaves you with.
It's almost like a greasy filmand you think, oh, come on, I
just can't do that anymore.
I'll read romance, I'll readtext book, stuff that is taking
my interest.
I'm your introvert's introvert.
(47:21):
So it actually allows me timeto regroup and get energy for
myself.
And I think what's importantwhen you're doing self care is
knowing whether you are likelyto identify as an introvert or
an extrovert, and by that Idon't mean loud and bubbly.
Where do you get your energyfrom?
I have to regroup.
There are certain times on theday when I think, oh, I'll just
(47:42):
decompress, and that could bejust sitting in the car.
Well, working from home is abit weird, but you know that's
just go out to the car and sitin the car.
But when I was driving placesradio off.
It's my time.
But if I'm in a crowd of peopleI can get energy from other
people.
But sometimes that's reallyexhausting.
Christmas is like that for somepeople Exhausting.
(48:04):
You've got to almost perform,you know.
You've got to be there for yourfamily, your relationships.
Christmas as well is.
I've done it this year, can Ido it again?
And that's what we often see.
Actually, what was surprisedlast year is we tend to see a
decrease in the number of peoplewho call over the Christmas
January period.
(48:25):
We didn't see that last year.
It was the first time we'dactually seen the numbers of
people still calling out remainthe same.
And you know, was that becauseit was really the first year out
of lockdown and you know backto, we can go to Christmas with
great Aunty June when Uncle Bobis telling us to pull our socks
up.
But also there's things likework will continue.
(48:47):
People aren't having the samesorts of holidays.
So all if you are on holidays,you're with your family and it's
intense and it's hard andyou've got to keep giving of
yourself.
Now, for people who don't gettheir energy from others and
don't generate their energy fromothers, that's exhausting and
you need downtime.
So it's very simplistic.
(49:09):
But whether you're an introvertor an extrovert, you can be
both.
There's no, no very cleardelineation, but know that it is
like how to take downtime foryourself.
I would offend who spends timehiding in the loo from her
children.
For her, that's all she can dobecause they're young, they're
toddlers, they're intoeverything and they're still
banging on the door.
(49:29):
But she puts her headphones inand she knows that.
Okay, it's just, she's there.
I just need five minutes.
That's all she needs.
Speaker 6 (49:37):
So we're coming to the end of our conversation,
jackie.
Thank you so much for your time.
Are there any last kind ofwords or thoughts you'd like to
leave with artists and there'san in particular, I think,
around.
You know we gave the triggerwarning at the start.
You know the really difficulttopic, I think, of suicide and
people who are feeling suicidal,in particular at this time of
year.
So any last thoughts that youmight like to share?
Speaker 3 (49:58):
Yeah, thanks, krinta.
I think Cole, cole, before itgets difficult, but also be kind
to yourself.
If you can be there for others.
Speaker 6 (50:11):
Thank you, thank you.
That's terrific advice and Ijust can't, you know, emphasise
the incredible work that you andeverybody at Lifeline and
Online Australia are doing.
It's such a critical service,it's a fabulous piece of, I
think, the mental health servicesystem in here in Australia,
and we're so lucky that we canactually pick up the phone and
(50:32):
speak to trained workers,trained clinicians, trained
people who aren't judgmental,who are going to listen and,
ultimately, who are going tohelp.
So I know there'll be lots ofinformation in the show notes.
All the phone lines will bethere too, but just to remind
people of that phone number forLifeline Australia, it is 131114
.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
You've been listening to Get Real Talking Mental
Health and Disability, broughtto you by the team at Irma 365.
Get Real is produced andpresented by Emily Webb, with
Kerenza Louis Smith and specialguests.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
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